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Panzerknacker
12-25-2006, 09:21 PM
For the armament fanatics like me, this topic related to the barrel armament in service & development with the German air Force.

http://www.luzinde.com/meisaku/zero/MG151-20.jpg

Panzerknacker
12-25-2006, 09:44 PM
Rheinmetall Mg-17 calibre 7,92mm.


As we already know the stiff regulation of the Versailles treaty had a serius effect on the german guns manufacturing after WW1. With most of the early desing destroyed or captured the newly created Luftwaffe had to provide itself with new weapons, with were no related with the olders ones, a very favourable thing.

The first new desing was the rifle caliber Mg-17 wich was introduced in the biplane Fighter Arado Ar-65 in mid 30s, later it saw service in the Ar-68, He-51 and the legendary FW-190s and Bf-109s.


http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7008/mg17ke1.jpg


The weapons is adopted for fixed mountings only.Is feeded by a desintegrable metallic belt and It work for the short recoil principle: the barrel and the lock recoil soem milimeters back after the shot and then the brech became open. The Mg-17 used a mecanism called "locking slevee" wich was a interrupted threaded ring wich, it open and close the breech used the linear alternative movement. This kind of mechanic action was used in some early Rheinmetall and Solothurn desings like the MG-29 and MG-30. To increase the rate of fire the muzzle had an gas trap wich efectively turned back a portion of the bullet propelant and accelerate the lock movement.

The gun had a cyclic rate of fire of 1160 rpm, droping at nearly 1000 rpm in sincronizated mountings like the ones in the german single engine Fighters.

Twin Mg-17 over a FW-190A-1, note the side eyection chutes for the links and cases.


http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/107/mg1701kf1.jpg


This MG is phneumatic triggered, it weights 12 kg, have an overall lenght of 1150 mm (600 mm barrel). Despite being designed for fighters some were used in fixed mounting in bombers and attack planes like the He-111 and Ju-88. this was used as a defensive device, even it was more a psicological weapon.

"Scary mounting" fixed Mg-17 in the He-111 s tail.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/7469/mg17lx9.jpg



Nose layout in a Me-110, 4 x Mg-17:

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/9755/mg17xr6.jpg

Panzerknacker
12-25-2006, 10:05 PM
Rheinmetall MG-15, flexible gun.

Having already a fixed 8mm machinegun, the technics in the newly created Rheinmetall-Borsig sought a flexible Mg with similar characteristics.
( Borsig was a very qualificated metallurgic plant wich merge his facilities with the steel and weapons gigant Rheinmetall in 1936).

The new Mg-15 used the same recoil principle of the earlier Mg-17 but with simplificated construction. it was also lighter with 7,3 kg in weight ( unloaded). The barrel was 595mm long, the overall length 1100 mm. The smaller muzzle gas trap means that the cliclic rate disminished a little, roughly 1000 rpm.

Mg-15 and "saddle magazine"

http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/3273/mg1501ob8.jpg


One bad characteristics of this weapon is the feed mechanisn...completely unable to handle the metallic belt...in full automatic fire the gunner had to change the 75 round magazine after 4,7 seconds.


Inner squematic showing the recoilling barrel, chamber and the powerful counter recoil spring.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3812/mg15gj0.jpg


Mg-15 in Fw-189.

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/8735/fw189a119kp2.jpg


Some Mg-15s were converted in ground light machineguns, using a Mg-34 tripod and a metallic shoulder stock, most of these were used for the Fallschirms, Luftwaffe ground units. a smaller numbers reached the Heer.

Converted Mg-15 in use with Afrika Korps.

http://i18.tinypic.com/33ttq1l.jpg

VonWeyer
12-26-2006, 06:58 AM
Interesting info and great pics Panzerknacker.
The "stinger" in the He111's tail has always interested me.
Anymore info would be appreciated.
Thanx.

VonWeyer
12-26-2006, 04:34 PM
Pic of "stinger" machine gun.

Panzerknacker
12-26-2006, 06:13 PM
Nice, as you might know is quiet larget topic any help will be preciated.

Panzerknacker
12-26-2006, 07:41 PM
Mauser MG 81.

The effectiveness of a rifle caliber machinegun has been always marginal. To increase the chances to bring down ( or at list seriously damage it) an aircraft with this small weapons a high rate of fire is needed, that ad an sumatory effect of multiple the hits.


Mg 81Z in FW-189A-2.

http://i14.tinypic.com/2yostae.jpg


The german response for this was the Mg 81. This Mauser desing used a short recoil mechanism based on the MG 34 s one. The system was more simple than the Rheinmetall weapons , the barrel and bolt go backward just 5mm after shooting, and the unlock begans, the breech was open and closed for means of an rotating bolt head. This locking was a very fast one. The gun was provided with a muzzle trap with help the recoil forces, the barrel was considerabely shortened to made the ciclic operation faster thus increasing even more the rate of fire. The charging mechanism was manual.


MG 81 inner squematic, note the muzzle gas trap and the powerful spring.

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/1963/mg811ga4.jpg


As result of all this the MG 81 could reach the 1500-1600 rounds per minute according to the ammo used. The rate of fire was considerable in a single but most of the manufactured Mg-81 were used a the double weapon MG 81Z ( Z= zwilling= twin). In this 2 MG 81 were coupled in a single trigger. That provide a weapon wich can shoot well over 3000 rpm.

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7083/mg81ziz1.jpg

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/6685/mg81zrqe9.jpg

Panzerknacker
12-26-2006, 07:58 PM
Another serious advantage over the Mg-15 was his feed system, a desintegrable metallic belt. Ussually a 1000 round link was used per gun tube. The MG-81 was used in several tipes of bombing and recce aircraft like the Ju-87D, Ju-88, He-177, Ju-188. Ar-196, Fw-200 etc.

Armored turret KS-81K in Ju-87D-3.

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/1411/ju87d19fu0.jpg



MG-81J single barrel in Ju-88A-4.

http://i11.tinypic.com/2coh9jn.jpg



The Ju-87D and the attack variants of the FW-190 could mount a WB-81Z below the wing to engage enemy infantry , this contain 3 MG-81z tilted down 32 degrees so the aircraft shoot downwards even in level flight, this layout unleash a rate of more than 6000 rpm... ¡¡¡ quite a Minigun.

WB-81Z

http://i12.tinypic.com/2poo6d0.jpg


A more weird weapon was the Mg-81 converted for ground role. Is not clear if the huge rate of fire was reduced to this, is know that several were put on servise with the Luftwaffe Ground Units.


http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/4086/mg81qy0.jpg




MG-81 characteristics (single barrel):

Calibre : 7,92x57 mm

Weight: 6,3 Kg.

Barrel lenght: 47 cm.

Overall Lenght: 94,5 cm.

Clclic rate of Fire: 1500-1600 dpm

Muzzle speed: 810-850 m/s.

Panzerknacker
12-26-2006, 08:23 PM
The 7,92x57 mm ammo. Part 1

http://img485.imageshack.us/img485/6558/18sep42ben2.jpg


Teorically the family of 8mm caliber MGs were capable of shoot every tipe of cartrigde with the exception of the reduced charge Nahpatrone.

However a special ammo was creted for aerials weapons, that was the Vervesserte (improved) cartrigdes o "V" patronen.

The V cartrigdes were provided with 15 % more powder charge, that aumented the muzzle speed well over 800 m/s shortening the flight time to target. The increades pressure also help to move the heavier recoil spring compared with ground weapons.

The selected proyectiles to be used was: P.m.K ( Phosphor with steel core, an API bullet) S.m.K (Pointed with steel core, AP bullet) and the complicated "B" patrone ( Beobachtung= observation ,an explosive incendiary round) this B bullet detonated on impact and was an alternative to the tracer.

B-patrone bullet before and after impact.

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/6018/bio2.jpg

All this cartrigeds can be combined with day (L-spur) or Night (Glimmspur = Glowing) tracers.

Below a table of the cartrigdes used and his Muzzle speed:

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/8123/muni799eq6.jpg

Panzerknacker
12-26-2006, 08:35 PM
7,92 mm x 57 ammunition, part 2:

Bullet markings for the high pressure V ammo:

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/3085/profil8lb8.jpg
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/3582/profil11or3.jpg

The armor piercing round penetrate 10 mm steel plate at 100 meters in a 90 degrees angle.

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/807/copiedegurt1z71js4.jpg


This cartrigdes were told to not be used in the standar infantry weapons, nevertheless some soldier of the Luftwaffe do it , the strong K-98 action withstand the V bullets without any trouble.

VonWeyer
12-27-2006, 07:52 AM
Great info.

Panzerknacker
12-29-2006, 08:53 PM
Rheinmetall Borsig MG-131 part 1:

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9099/rheinborsigqj1.jpg

Following a direct order from Göring staff, the Rheinmetall firm was again in charge to develop a new weapon, this time a medium calibre MG. The work began in 1935 but made little progress until early 1939 when the the german technicians finished this 13 mm gun.

This was a belt feed, air cooled, it weights 17,5 kg and shoot at 930 rpm (non-sincronizated). The feeding system was interchangeable for left or right feed with only minor parts changing.

This weapon also used the short recoil mechanism , the barrel actually go back some 19 milimeters and then the bolts lock is disengaged. As in the MG 17 a gas trap aided the recoiling part in order to improve the rate of fire. This mechanism of recoil plus a locking sleeve was patented by Louis Stange in 1933 and slightly changed for the use in this caliber.


MG-131 for flexible mountings.

http://i7.tinypic.com/2czwx6o.jpg


This machinegun deploys a very compact desing with his barrel just 593 mm in lenght and a light weight considering his half inch caliber, however that prerrogatives brings some limitations, the cartrigde case was short compared with those used in the U.S Browning M2 .50 or the Russian Berezin UB de 12,7x108mm.

Nevertheless it was a more reliable weapon than the earliers and it had a higher rate of fire. This Mg was first introduced in limited numbers in November 1940. The fisrt aircraft in wich saw some service was the bomber Do-217E , it carry a cuple of flexible guns one in a ventral turret and other in a powered dorsal turret.

In the fighters was introduced firts in the Bf-109G-5 and the Fw-190A-7. Originally the Fw-190A was designed to carry a Mg-131 in each wingroots, it was tested in some prototipes but none A series carry this armament being replaced by a MG-17 and then for a heavier Mg-151/20 cannon.

Mg-131 in Fw-190V5 wingroot.

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/4011/mg131v5ph1.jpg



That gun was put ion service in great scale in 1941, replacing and complementing the 8 mm Mgs in aircraft such Fw-200, Ju-88, Ju-90. Ju-290, Ju-52. etc.


The "eyes", double Mg-131 mounting behind armored glass in the rear Ju-88A-4 cockpit.

http://i18.tinypic.com/4bxogvm.jpg

Panzerknacker
12-29-2006, 09:24 PM
MG-131, part 2, use in fighter aircrafts:

The Bf-109 and Fw-190 emplacementes of this gun were both designed to shoot trought the airscrew, because that a synchronization device was needed.


MG 131 for synchronizated mountings.

http://i10.tinypic.com/33mmn1d.jpg


In this form the gun was pneumatically trigered, when shooting trough the 3 blade propellers the rate of fire decreased comparatively little, about 800-810 rpm. That gave a sort of consolation price for the jagdfliegers due the concentrated cone of fire provided.

The earliest fighters in use was a couple of Bf-109F "Spezial" owned for Adolph Galland. Following Galland request (always unhappy with the reduced armament in the Ferdinand) those Messerschmitt had an factory convertion of two nose MG 131s with 200 rounds instead the normal 7,92 mm weapons. One of this F-2 was destroyed after a difficult combat with Spitfires.

External view in Gallands s F-2/U emplacement.

http://i17.tinypic.com/404vcit.jpg

Funily enough this improvisated layout was far more streamlined of those used later in 1943 for the G-5/G-6/G-14, those large rounded fairings made sometimes the the german pilots nicknamed that Messers with the word "Beulens" (Boilers). I have seen some sources (specially websites) that claim the BF-109G-1 tropen as the first Gustav to use the 13 mm guns...nothing far from the truth, it was the presurizated G-5. The Luftwaffe guns were all electrically detonated there was however a percusion weapon for the ground combat role.

Loading the 131 in a FW-190A-7.

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/3549/fw1907xy1.jpg

The heavy fighter Me-210 used acouple of MG-131 in a very complicated remote controled barbettes, the guns elevated and depressed his cannon togheter but could be aimed to the sides individually.

Remore turret in an Hungarian Me-210.

http://i17.tinypic.com/2lmlzwl.jpg


The Me-210 failed miserably in his intended use... the replacement for the Me-110, nevertheless it serve to develop the powerful Me-410 . It was this kind of armament wich shoot down James M. Morris a P-38 lighthing Ace of the 8th Air Force in 1944.
Morris was in pursuit of a Me-410 but fell to the "Hornisse" defensive MG 131s.

Panzerknacker
12-31-2006, 04:59 PM
MG 131 part 3, bomber powered turrets:

Remote controled twin turret in He-177.

FDL-131

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2833/he177a5qx9.jpg


http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/3332/fdl131zhp4.gif


Single barrel mounting.

http://i10.tinypic.com/2hp0e95.jpg



Electric powered turret EDL 131 in FW-200. Note the armor piercing (black) and HE ( yellow) rounds in belt.


http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/562/ajyan8.jpg

Tony Williams
12-31-2006, 09:20 PM
You will find a lot of information about WW2 aircraft guns HERE (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm). There are also various other articles about aircraft armament on my site.

I notice you have the photo of the intact + exploded B-Patrone from my book, Flying Guns – World War 2: Development of Aircraft Guns, Ammunition and Installations 1933-45 (http://users.telenet.be:80/Emmanuel.Gustin/). It is always a good idea to credit sources!

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

VonWeyer
01-01-2007, 08:03 AM
Very resourceful info Panzerknacker.

Panzerknacker
01-01-2007, 11:16 AM
You will find a lot of information about WW2 aircraft guns HERE (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm). There are also various other articles about aircraft armament on my site.

I notice you have the photo of the intact + exploded B-Patrone from my book, Flying Guns – World War 2: Development of Aircraft Guns, Ammunition and Installations 1933-45 (http://users.telenet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/). It is always a good idea to credit sources!

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

My dear Tony, you dont need to remember me about your site, I am familiar with that, I even send you some information about the vickers 25,4 mm guns some year ago ( with no answer unfortunately) I also participate in your forum with the nick "Panzernik".

The picture of the exploded round i ve extracted from sample page in the fighter gun website several months ago, is not scanned from you book because I dont have it, regretably is not available for my locals credit cards.

I am always triying to quote the sources , in this topic being so may I will pretend to post those when the topic is complete.

If you are interested here are some of that:


"The machine gun Vol I, II & III James M. Chinn"

www.luftarchiv.de (http://www.luftarchiv.de).

www.lexikon-derwhermacht.de (http://www.lexikon-derwhermacht.de)

http://www.elgrancapitan.org/foro/index.php

www.tecnicamilitar-fateback.com (http://www.tecnicamilitar-fateback.com)

www.aeronautics.ru (http://www.aeronautics.ru)

Bf-109 in action part II- Squadron signal.

FW-189 in action- Squadron signal

Ju-88 in action part I and II- Squadron signal.

And off course Rapid Fire.

-----------------------------



If you can add or correct something in this topic I will enormously preciated.


Left profile of a Messerschmitt Bf 109 F-2/U, piloted by famous commander of JG 26 "Schlageter", Colonel Adolf Galland. St. Omer airfield, France, spring 1941.


http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto/galland3.jpg

Tony Williams
01-01-2007, 09:43 PM
My dear Tony, you dont need to remember me about your site, I am familiar with that, I even send you some information about the vickers 25,4 mm guns some year ago ( with no answer unfortunately) I also participate in your forum with the nick "Panzernik".


Thanks for your response. I have found that legitimate emails sometimes do not reach me, which is a pity considering that so much spam does!

The "aircraft" section of my website contains many articles which I am sure those interested in armament will enjoy. In conjunction with Emmanuel Gustin's website HERE (http://users.telenet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/index.html) they will provide a very good idea of the subject.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Panzerknacker
01-02-2007, 07:57 PM
Ikaria MG FF 20 mm.

http://i9.tinypic.com/2djnskg.jpg

The first cannon in use with the newly created Luftwaffe. This design derivated from the WW1 Becker gun, this was copied and manufactures for the swiss SEMAG (Oerlikon) factory in the interwar years as the FF-F ( FF means flugel felst = wing mounting) .

The Berlin based firm Ikaria adquire the license for his manufacturing in ealy 1930s. Not very satisfied with the performance of the swiss gun some modifications were introduced to increase the muzzle velocity and the rate of fire.

http://i9.tinypic.com/3z9nrjp.jpg

The gun mechanism was very simple, a cylindrical spring move the bolt forward feed the round and having a fixed firing pin it shoots the cartridge just being rammed in the chamber. The only opposed force to the powder blast is only the mass inertia of the moving parts until the recoil forces overcome it and the extraction began. This is know as blow-back operation system or (more technically) “advanced primer ignition”.


The simple blow-back mechanism in MG-FF.

http://i11.tinypic.com/47st47m.gif

The gun saw service experimentally in the Bf-109C and D, but only was broadly introduced in the BF-109E-3, also was part of the weaponry in the FW-190 (outer wings) until replaced with the more modern MG-151.

Panzerknacker
01-02-2007, 08:02 PM
MG-FF continue....:

The ME-110 fighter carry 2 of these below the nose and some variants also had two in the rear cockpit as “Schrage musik” anti bomber guns.
Also was used in several bombers as an defensive armament.

Fixed MG FF in Ju-88A-14.

http://i15.tinypic.com/4ge5xsp.jpg


The MG FF weights 27 kg, had a rate of fire of 520 rpm, an overall length of 1260 mm and was feed by a 60 rounds drum magazine.




MG-FF/M variant:

The MG-FF/M was the gun prepared to shoot the special Minengesschos , this was a very thin walled explosive round wich higher capacity of explosive filling than the older models. However this 92 grams bullet had not enough recoil to feed the gun properly so a lighter cylindrical spring was needed. In order to armonisate all this the FF/M was introduced in 1940 with the Bf-109E-4 togheter with a new family of ammunition, wich ( to the headache of the ground crews) was not interchangeable with the FF ammo. The gun had a slightly improved rate of fire, about 540 rpm.

Gun armonization in Bf-109E-7 in the desert (a couple of FF/M cannons)

http://i9.tinypic.com/4gi7uqa.jpg




In outer wing Fw-190A-3.


http://i9.tinypic.com/2qkhrht.jpg

VonWeyer
01-03-2007, 03:03 PM
As usual Panzerknacker you have an awesome amount of information which always makes for an interesting and educational read.

Panzerknacker
01-03-2007, 06:21 PM
Thanks V.W I have to complete that with information about the 13 mm ammo and the 20x80 mm cartrigdes for the Ikaria gun.

Panzerknacker
01-06-2007, 09:01 PM
Munition of 13x64B for MG-131.

As I said before this was a reduced capacity case in comparative with other similar weapons.Very reliable however. It can manage bullets weight between 33 aand 38 grams and shoot them at more than 700 m/s. All the bullets use a metal driving band, the "B" in the designation indicates a Belt to adjust chamber headspace.

13 mm Panzergranatpatrone L'Spur

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/5687/perforantepq0.jpg


Solid steel armor piercing shot, with day tracer. Muzzle speed 710 m/s. Bullet weight 38,1 grams. The tracer endures about 1,5 secs enough for 700 meters flight. There was also a Phosphor filled variant wich improve the incendiary effect.


Armor penetration table for the 13 mm Panzergranate, the vertical columns indicates the plate thickness and the horizontal the angle (90 º being vertical ) The discontinued lines indicate the penetration with a 3 mm duraluminium plate at 20º, simulating an aircraft body.

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/3052/tabla13mmvk5uh5.jpg



Sprenggranate L'Spur

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/2893/explosivosb7.jpg


Explosive, tracer with head impact fuse. Even is dubious the real affectiveness of a HE bullet in this caliber it was widely used. Some variant even had a self destruction element despite it complicated fabrication. Bullet weight 34 grams, muzzle speed 750 m/s.


Brandgranatpatrone L'spur

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/3425/incendiariovi7.jpg

Incendiary with tracer. Weight 33,5 grams, muzzle speed 755 m/s. The filling is a mix of barium nitrate and magnesium.

Man of Stoat
01-07-2007, 06:06 AM
By the way, " advanced primer ignition " is not synonymous with "direct blowback". API is what (allegedly) happens in an open bolt blowback weapon, i.e. the primer is supposed to be ignited before the breech block has come to a rest. an acquaintance of mine did some tests on this, his conclusion was that it doesn't actually happen.

Tony Williams
01-07-2007, 08:44 AM
By the way, " advanced primer ignition " is not synonymous with "direct blowback". API is what (allegedly) happens in an open bolt blowback weapon, i.e. the primer is supposed to be ignited before the breech block has come to a rest. an acquaintance of mine did some tests on this, his conclusion was that it doesn't actually happen.

What did he test? Some sub-machine guns claim to have an element of API in their operation, but it can't be significant because they use standard ammo which does not have a rebated rim.

The pre-WW2 20mm Oerlikon family, and the 30mm MK 108 and IJN Type 2, most definitely relied on API, however - they couldn't have worked without it.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Panzerknacker
01-07-2007, 02:20 PM
Well , when iIuse the API designation was obviously to the cannons, a .22 pistol work also with the blowback mechanism so.....Aniway those are small details that did not bother my at all.

MG-FF in Fw-200.


http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Bilder/Bordwaffen/MGFF-1%20Fw200.jpg

Man of Stoat
01-09-2007, 02:34 AM
What did he test? Some sub-machine guns claim to have an element of API in their operation, but it can't be significant because they use standard ammo which does not have a rebated rim.

The pre-WW2 20mm Oerlikon family, and the 30mm MK 108 and IJN Type 2, most definitely relied on API, however - they couldn't have worked without it.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

He did his tests on a MAC-10.

Tony Williams
01-09-2007, 03:23 AM
He did his tests on a MAC-10.

Which explains it...as that uses standard pistol ammo.

I have seen calculations concerning Oerlikon-type API blowback cannon which show that if they were straight blowback, the breechblock would have to be ten times heavier. This would not only slow the rate of fire right down to a small fraction of the actual figure, it would mean that the gun would only work if kept level: if pointed upwards, the weight of the breechblock would be too much for the mainspring to push it back.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Man of Stoat
01-09-2007, 09:59 AM
Tony, this is vaguely on topic since it concerns German aircraft guns, but I just had a look at the split breech page on your website -- a different friend of mine has just been contracted to produce a couple of multibarrel weapons based on the World War I Fokker Motorgewehr, which was a multibarrel split breech design, for which Fokker had several German patents. I'm surprised you didn't mention it, and I'm equally surprised that the principle was not taken further, since it is significantly simpler than the Gatling principle.

I'm sure that we will learn a lot about it once he's made the prototypes.

Tony Williams
01-09-2007, 10:55 AM
Tony, this is vaguely on topic since it concerns German aircraft guns, but I just had a look at the split breech page on your website -- a different friend of mine has just been contracted to produce a couple of multibarrel weapons based on the World War I Fokker Motorgewehr, which was a multibarrel split breech design, for which Fokker had several German patents.
That's interesting - I have seen photos of a German multi-barrel engine-driven WW1 aircraft gun, but I didn't know it had a split breech mechanism. Do you have any more details?

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Panzerknacker
01-09-2007, 07:15 PM
The Mauser MG-151 family Part 1:

As early as 1934 the Mauser technicians began the development of a new airborne weapon to replace and/or complemente the Oerlikons guns.

The MG 151 was designed in two different calibres at the same time, the heavy 15mm MG-151/15 and the MG-151/20 20 mm cannon. Interchangeability between both design was also provided.


MG 151/15.


http://i3.tinypic.com/2z69kz9.gif


The 15 mm heavy machinegun (incorrectly named cannon in some sources) was the first of the family to be introduced in service with the Me-109F2 in march 1941. The MG was operated by a short stroke recoil mechanism, both barrel and lock recoiled togheter and the the bolt is disingaged using a rotating bolts head.

Inner squematic.

http://i1.tinypic.com/48xz7rm.jpg


The MG 151 used a large capacity bottlenecked case with gave a high velocity to the proyectiles around 850-960 m/s. That provided a straigth flying path to target and improve the chances of hit. Due the generous muzzle speed the Ap bullet could defeat any aeronautical armor in that time, including the mitic "ironclad" ilyushin Il-2 Sturmovik. The overall lenght of the gun was 1917 mm, width 190mm, weight 42,5 kg and it shoot at some 700 rpm.

MG 151/15 in Fw-200:

http://www.lietadla.com/vyzbroj/mg-151/mg-151-04.jpg



Loading a 125 rounds belt in a Hs-129B-1.

http://i15.tinypic.com/2u8xgky.jpg

Tony Williams
01-09-2007, 07:29 PM
AIUI the MG 151 was first developed in 15x96 calibre, only later in 20x82; certainly the 15mm came out first.

As a matter of interest, the 15mm seems to have been more widely used than is generally thought. I have seen various pictures of what is clearly 15mm ammunition being loaded into planes which are supposed to have only been equipped with the 20mm version.

This pic from my website shows both rounds.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2aircart1.jpg

Panzerknacker
01-09-2007, 07:35 PM
There is a good chance that both were designed at the same time , for example the first operative (maybe a prototipe) MG 151/20 was put in a Do-17e used by the legion Kondor in Spain in 1937, the aircraft did not have a long career being shoot down by the republican AAA near Asturias , none of the crew survived.

Man of Stoat
01-10-2007, 03:32 AM
That's interesting - I have seen photos of a German multi-barrel engine-driven WW1 aircraft gun, but I didn't know it had a split breech mechanism. Do you have any more details?

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)


A friend of mine has a list of patent numbers relevant to this weapon. Next time I speak to him, I will ask him for them, if I can't find them at home.

Tony Williams
01-10-2007, 04:35 AM
There is a good chance that both were designed at the same time , for example the first operative (maybe a prototipe) MG 151/20 was put in a Do-17e used by the legion Kondor in Spain in 1937, the aircraft did not have a long career being shoot down by the republican AAA near Asturias , none of the crew survived.

I would be very interested in knowing more about that report.

My information suggests that the 15mm version was designed and made first, for several reasons:

1. The gun designation: at that time, the calibre formed the initial numbers of the designation, so you got MG 81 = 8mm, MG 131 = 13mm, MG 151 = 15mm, MG 204 = 20mm. The 20mm version of the MG 151 is designated MG 15/20, which looks like an afterthought.

2. Every source I have states that the MG 151/20 design was adapted from the 15mm version in order to make use of the highly effective M-Geschoss shells developed for the MG-FFM. These did not enter service until 1940. The earliest production date for the MG 151/20 which I have seen mentioned is 1940.

3. The 15mm gun entered service in before the 20mm.

The MG 151 - in any version - was nowhere near production ready in 1937 when it was reportedly found in a crash. Unless there is hard evidence (e.g. a photo of the gun in the wreck, with the ammo showing it to be 20x82) I strongly suspect a wrong identification. There were various Solothurn/Rheinmetall 20mm guns around at that time, and it was probably one of those.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Panzerknacker
01-10-2007, 04:59 PM
The MG 151 - in any version - was nowhere near production ready in 1937 when it was reportedly found in a crash. Unless there is hard evidence (e.g. a photo of the gun in the wreck, with the ammo showing it to be 20x82)



Of course as I said it was probably a prototipe and yes there is evidence , the gun itself is in the Spanish Air force Museum. A report of this gun was in the ARMAS magazine Nº 138.

Tony Williams
01-10-2007, 05:32 PM
Of course as I sais it was probably a prototipe and yes there is evidence , the gun itself is in the Spanish Air force Museum. A report of this gun was in the ARMAS magazine Nº 138.

Do you think you could possibly tell me what the magazine said about the gun? (In English, preferably!).

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Panzerknacker
01-10-2007, 05:50 PM
I have not see references of this gun in english language publications.

Interesting pics of the triple mounting of Mg-151 /15 in He-280.


http://i3.tinypic.com/2yzld3c.jpg


http://i1.tinypic.com/2d8opcm.jpg


Between 1944 and 1945 a lot of surplus MG-151/15 were used as a drilling (triple) in the Sd.Kfz 251 half-track.

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/174/mg15118zc5.jpg

Tony Williams
01-10-2007, 06:22 PM
I have not see references of this gun in english language publications.

Actually I was wondering what the article in ARMAS magazine Nº 138 said.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Panzerknacker
01-10-2007, 06:28 PM
Actually I was wondering what the article in ARMAS magazine Nº 138 said



Uuughh...what a man of little faith. I already told you. It was more or less the facts I ve descrived previously. I have that magazine. if you behave I going to scan something.

Tony Williams
01-10-2007, 07:41 PM
Uuughh...what a man of little faith. I already told you. It was more or less the facts a ve descrived previously. I have that magazine. if you behave I going to scan something.

I'm not doubting your word - I was just after more detail!

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Panzerknacker
01-11-2007, 06:25 PM
Okay.

Mauser family Part 3, MG 151/20:

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/3100/mg1516fy7fb5.jpg


Despite the good characteristics in the 15 mm MG the german Air Force promptly favored the 20 mm gun. The air-to-air doctrine was turn to believe that is more likely to destroy an aircraft with high explosive shells and not just putting holes on it with AP ammunition.

The 20 mm diameter was always considerer as the minimum practical explosive shell. The MG-151 was designed to accept all the family of the FF, including the high capacity Minen bullet.

There was some limitations to employ the same receiver and bolt of the 15 mm variant , the cartridge case had to be reduced in length, that and the heavier projectile gave as result a 100 m/s reduction in muzzle velocity compared with the 151/15. A shorter stroke in the bolts travel was however good for the rate of fire , about 780-800 rpm. It can handle bullets between 92 and 120 grams.

Mauser began the high scale production in 1941 and it was adopted first by the Bf-109F-4 in mid-1941. The MG-151 quickly replaced (or at list it was intended so) the older MG-FF in several types of aircraft. There was a pneumatically triggered variant for fixed mounting and other manually charged for flexible defensive laffettes. As usual the cannon was feed by a disintegrable metallic belt and air cooled. The cannon weights 42 kg, and it had a overall length of 1620 mm.


Flexible MG-151/20

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/3416/ju188aj6.jpg

It will be superfluous to describe all the aircraft wich employs this gun, some like the Me-109, Fw-190, Me-110G, Ju-88C, Ju-88G, Ju-87D, Me-210/ Me-410, He-177, FW-200, etc. It enough to say the it became the most used cannon trough the war



Gun layout in a Me-210.

http://i10.tinypic.com/2aj2p86.jpg



Double nose mounting in night fighter Me-110G-4, note the large flash hidders.

http://i16.tinypic.com/2zz16z9.jpg

Compared with the allied guns like the Hispano Mk-II the Mauser 20 mm was little less powerful, it had in his favor a much superior reliability and rate of fire. In the MG-151 the german pilot could be sure that in the 99,99% times he pulls the trigger the Mauser went off…thing that cannot be reproduced in the French-British cannon.

Tony Williams
01-11-2007, 08:47 PM
It might be worth mentioning that both 15mm and 20mm versions of the MG 151 were available with either percussion or electric priming. The ammunition was not interchangeable between the two types. The electric-primed ones were used in synchronised applications, which means almost entirely the wing-root guns in the Fw 190. The percussion guns were used in the Bf 109.

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Panzerknacker
01-12-2007, 08:37 AM
Thanks for your adds Tony, incidentally I going to put some of that later.

Motorkanone Mg-151/20 in B-109F.

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/1918/mg1709yg8.jpg



Container MB-151 below Me-109G-4/R6.


http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/3139/wb1511if3.jpg


http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/8002/mg151ww1.jpg



Mg-151/20 with open sights.

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/357/mg151yj4.jpg



Quadruple "Schräge musik" emplacement.

Tony Williams
01-12-2007, 08:56 AM
An addition to my last post: I should have said that all MG 151 guns fitted to the Fw 190 family were electric primed, not just the synchronised ones. This was done to simplify the job of the armourers, because the two types of ammunition were difficult to tell apart.

For the same reason, one interesting addition to the Bf 109G-6 was not adopted - the fitting of an MG 151 under the fuselage, to fire through the prop. This apparently worked very well, providing a valuable improvement in firepower without the performance and handling penalties of the underwing pods. However, the belly gun had to be synchronised, which meant it had to use the electric-primed gun, whereas the engine gun used percussion priming. The risk of mixing up the ammo was considered too great, so the idea was dropped.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Panzerknacker
01-12-2007, 09:56 AM
For the same reason, one interesting addition to the Bf 109G-6 was not adopted - the fitting of an MG 151 under the fuselage, to fire through the prop. This apparently worked very well, providing a valuable improvement in firepower without the performance and handling penalties of the underwing pods. However, the belly gun had to be synchronised, which meant it had to use the electric-primed gun, whereas the engine gun used percussion priming. The risk of mixing up the ammo was considered too great, so the idea was dropped


:D Mg-151/20E below Bf-109G-4.

http://i17.tinypic.com/4d1qf77.jpg



Mg-151/20 Elecktrish.

No much to add to Tony s post. The differences with the normal MG-151/20 was purely internal. The spring loaded firing pin was replaced with a fixed needle wich was energizated by the 24v aicraft electric circuit. The sincronization device consisten in a electromechanical gear, the use of electricar primer wich was detonated by a spark, mean that a more instantaneous ignition was provided. that allowed the Mg-151/20E to shoot trough a high rpm 3 thick blade propellers like the BMW 801 engine and still had a rate over the 600 rpm. The production of the Mg-151/20E were delivered almost entirely to the Fw-190 and the Ta-152H variants, some other aircraft in use were the Do-335 ( 2 above the engine), Me-209 stüfe II (wingroots) and the Me-309 (wingroots and above engine)


The 4 guns in a FW-190A-6.

http://i17.tinypic.com/2guwcux.jpg

Panzerknacker
01-12-2007, 06:50 PM
15x96mm Ammunition for the MG-151/15.


Panzergranatpatrone, L-spur.

http://i11.tinypic.com/2w49qnl.jpg


Armor piercing steel shot, with tracer, projectile weight 72 grams initial speed 850 m/s. The tracer elemente endure at list 1100 meters.

Penetration table for Pzg.Ptr. L-spur. 25 mm at 100 meters and 13 mm at 600 meters, both in vertical (90º) plate and direct mode..


http://i12.tinypic.com/2chuhkp.jpg

Brandsprenggranatpatrone

http://i10.tinypic.com/4hwfqpy.jpg

Incendiary-explosive. 57,5 grams bullet, muzzle velocity 960 m/s, pretty fast one.


Brandsprenggranate L-spur Mit Zerl.

http://i16.tinypic.com/4bzp4qu.jpg

Same as above but with an tracer and self destruction element in the bullet base. Green band.

Panzerknacker
01-12-2007, 06:59 PM
and also....

Hartkern-Panzergranate ohne-zerl.

http://i12.tinypic.com/3zjl0rr.jpg


This is a pretty unusual variant. It consist in a miniaturized hard core Panzergranate 40 as used in the Panzers. Bullet weight 53,5 grams, it had an 9,5mm diameter tugsten-carbide core with a aluminium-magnesium envelope. It was propelled by 24,5 grams of gunpodwer an it can reach 1000 m/s. Due his cost a relative rarity it was to combat tanks only, no for air-to-air use. Probably it went to the Hs-129B-1 attack craft, and for some experimental 15 mm antitank rifles.



Penetration table of the Hartkern 15 mm bullet, 48mmm at 100 meters in a 160 kg/square mm steel ( wich is equivalent to a SAE 4340 alloy), excellent figure...

http://i13.tinypic.com/4bp4kgg.jpg

Panzerknacker
01-13-2007, 10:51 PM
20x82mm ammo for MG-151/20.

http://i17.tinypic.com/42ukmle.jpg[/URL]

This was the result of the necked up 15mm cartrigde, it was available with brass or steel case, the steel being favored because the always problematic copper resources, more than 80% of the cases wre fabricated in the metal. The ammo for the E variant used a electric primer, the other an standar percusion primer. There was at list 30 variant of projectile for 20x82mm cartrigde including several ubung (exercise) ones, for space reason I will only post the most used in wartime,


Brandsprenggranate glimmspur mit Zerleger.


http://i13.tinypic.com/2mz9wsw.jpg


Explosive-incendiary, with glowing tracer and self destruction fuse, a "working" ammo for the MG-151/20. Bullet weight 115 grams, explosive content 6 grams, the self destruccion device actuate after 1100 meters from the muzzle, o 3 seconds in flight. Muzzle speed about 720 m/s.
(http://i17.tinypic.com/42ukmle.jpg)

[U]Minengesschos.

http://i12.tinypic.com/2e5mema.jpg


The thin walled explosive projectile from the FF/M adapted to the MG-151, Weight 92 grams, muzzle speed 785 m/s.


Minengesschos mit Zerleger.

http://i13.tinypic.com/30bzprp.jpg

Same as above but with an self destructing device, indicated by a green band stenciled in the bullet. A good decition specially in later war when most of the air combat were fought over the homeland.

continue.....

Panzerknacker
01-13-2007, 11:00 PM
....continue from above.


Panzersprenggranate.

http://i12.tinypic.com/2r7u4ph.jpg

Armor piercing-explosive, weight 117 grams , muzle velocity 705 m/s. A steel shot with a 5 grams of nitropenta, base fused. Explosive content indicate by a yellow band.


Penetration table por the 20 mm Pzgr. 24 mm at 100 meters (90 º incidence) in 140 kg/squre mm steel, equivalent to a SAE 4140 alloy. The discontinued line indicated penetration after get trough a 3 mm 20 º tilted duraluminium plate.

http://img274.imageshack.us/img274/8366/tablapzgr2cmxn0.jpg



Panzergranate mit Phosphor

http://i17.tinypic.com/33c7wgg.jpg


Armor piercing incendiary, filled with an red and white phosphorous mix. 117 grams bullet, muzzle speed 705 m/s.


Panzergranate-Elektron.

http://i17.tinypic.com/3ymk5z6.jpg

AP incendiary, 117 grams, filled with a incendiary mix called "Elektronthermit", the characteristics of this were such as once iniciated it can burn even underwater because it had his own provition of O2. Muzzle speed 695-700 M/s. This variant were used mostly by the maritime and recce aircraft like FW-200C, Ju-88A-14, Ju-290, He-177, Bv-138, etc.

Panzerknacker
01-13-2007, 11:09 PM
...continue from above:

And at last but no at list:

Brandgranate-G-spur.

http://i11.tinypic.com/47myptj.jpg


Completely incendiary ammunition, with tracer, painted entirely in blue. filled with a mix of phosphor and magnesium, 116 grams bullet 710 m/s Muzzle speed. Used with good effect by the night fighters, there was a variant with self-destrution also.

Panzerknacker
01-14-2007, 12:04 AM
Maschinen Kanone MK-101 de 30mm. Part 1


http://i17.tinypic.com/3zqir8g.jpg



The search for a gun potent enough to face and defeat bombers with few shots gave as result the delopment of the Rheinmetall MK-101 of 30mm calibre. His development began in 1935 ( simultaneously with other weapons) and in 1940 it was ready to large scale production.


Functioning principle:

The working mechanisns in the Mk-101 is one in wich the barrel and bolt recoiled 3 cm backwards afer the shot. The bolt in locked and open for by a locking sleeve, this sleeve have an internal interrupted treads, and is rotated by and milled lugs in the barrel jacket, the sleeve rotation open and closed the chamber. This system was patented by Louis Stange in the late 1920s and used in some Solothurn MGs like the Mg-29, and Mg-30.

In the Mk-101 gave a strong locking system but a slow rate of fire, about 250 rpm.

This 30 mm automatic cannon weights (unloaded) 176 kg, had an overall lenght of 2640 mm, is pneumatically triggered and feeded by a 30 rounds drum magazine.


In service:

The Mk-101 was first introduced in the heavy fighter Me-110C-6. There was big plans for this fighter and his armament. Almost the entire production of Me-110C-6 went to the special formation Erprobungsgruppe 210, this group had the task to test special weapons and tactics, ( and teorically introduce the Me-210 in front line service) also it participated in the attacks against the radar station and naval transports of Britain coast. The C-6 had his MG-FF guns deleted to save weight. After some successes the disaster struck the Erpbg 210 formation when it lost his commander Walther Rubensdoffer to the Spitfires.

Me-110C-6 with ventral Mk-101.

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/9195/mk101bf110ye8.jpg



The same without fairing.


http://i11.tinypic.com/3ydh9o4.jpg



The surviving aircraft wen to some ZG heavy fighter squadrons.

Tony Williams
01-14-2007, 02:59 AM
Maschinen Kanone MK-101 de 30mm. Part 1

This 30 mm automatic cannon weights (unloaded) 176 kg, had an owerall lenght of 2640 mm, is pneumatically triggered and feeded by a 30 rounds drum magazine.
The 30-round drum was introduced in the Hs 129 installation. The Bf 110C-6 used box magazines: some sources say only six rounds capacity but a contemporary British report, which examined a plane shot down in August 1940, reported finding several ten-round magazines (which could evidently be changed in flight by the gunner).

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Panzerknacker
01-14-2007, 05:08 PM
Interesting, I have only knowledge of the 30 shot magazine. In combaat the gunner must be changing clips like crazy :D . It should be interesting to see what was the effect of a 30mm bullet in a Hurricane or Spitfire.

http://i11.tinypic.com/4ctipvq.jpg

Tony Williams
01-14-2007, 06:03 PM
Interesting, I have only knowledge of the 30 shot magazine. In combaat the gunner must be changing clips like crazy :D . It should be interesting to see what was the effect of a 30mm bullet in a Hurricane or Spitfire.
As I understand it the 110C-6 was used principally in ground attack missions (very effective against 1940-era tanks, I believe). The British reported that the ammo mags were loaded alternately with AP and HE.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Panzerknacker
01-15-2007, 07:24 PM
Part 2, Antiarmor usage.


As I understand it the 110C-6 was used principally in ground attack missions (very effective against 1940-era tanks, I believe). The British reported that the ammo mags were loaded alternately with AP and HE

Thank for the aditional info.


As far I know the Mk-101 was seriously consider to the antiarmor use after some test in Rechlin in winter 1941-42. The penetration of the of steel AP bullet was pretty average but with the newly designed H-Panzergrante L-spur the Mk-101 probe to be a winner.

Further test was done in the Kummersdorf tank probe facility against some captured tanks. The MK-101 with tugsten core was devastating against the T-34 , and a 50 % of the bullets fired on the side plate of a KV-1 penetrated, the shot on the top and engine coves were also very efective.

Some pics: effect of MK-101 tugsten ammo in KV-1 heavy tank.

http://i14.tinypic.com/4h9k5rb.jpg

http://i17.tinypic.com/2jfgjeb.jpg

http://i14.tinypic.com/4h9bno9.jpg

Tony Williams
01-16-2007, 03:16 AM
On a point of detail, the gun in the 110C-6 shot down in the BoB was stamped MG 101 - the MK designation was applied later (1941-2?)

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Panzerknacker
01-16-2007, 07:41 PM
That is a weird designation.

Mk-101 in Hs-129B.

The cannon was introduced in the B-1/R3 subvariant and then used in the B-1 & B-2 until it was replaced by the MK-103. With the MK 101 the Henschel 129 was rised from a mediocre attack aircraft to a powerful close support plataform.


Squematic MK 101 in Hs-129, note the compressed air bottles for charging.

http://i11.tinypic.com/2dlnnue.jpg




In Hs-129B-2, in manteinance position


http://i12.tinypic.com/3y5e05f.jpg



In flight position.

http://i10.tinypic.com/34hj915.jpg

Tony Williams
01-17-2007, 04:41 AM
That is a weird designation. [/URL]
I think that at the time, they had not invented the MK designation at all - any automatic gun was described as MG, regardless of calibre. The distinction between 30mm guns and the smaller ones was only introduced during the course of the war.

The later guns which were bigger than 30mm were of course designated BK for Bordkanon (interesting that the current 27mm Mauser aircraft gun should be designated "BK 27").

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Panzerknacker
01-17-2007, 06:40 PM
They probably not. I think that was in 1942 when the designation number were assigned, 100 and some for the Rheinmethall guns( Mk-108, 112), 200 for the Mauser ( Mg-213,214) and 300s for the Krieghoff and other gunmakers.


Is worth to mention that this cannon was also used in a double turret in the He-177.

http://i17.tinypic.com/29ojvrs.jpg


http://i17.tinypic.com/2uiyueq.png



And was "re-introduced " in some Bf-110Es and employed against tanks in the African desert.

http://i12.tinypic.com/2pru4va.jpg

Tony Williams
01-18-2007, 12:11 AM
Interesting - I did not know about the 110E installation.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Panzerknacker
01-18-2007, 07:34 PM
By the way Tony do you have any additional info about this Krieghoff experimental guns ?, because J.M Chinn in his book failed in provide the name of this.

http://i1.tinypic.com/4cwxteb.jpg


http://i14.tinypic.com/2a5gac3.jpg


http://i16.tinypic.com/48m3ynt.jpg



http://i3.tinypic.com/334sqit.jpg

Tony Williams
01-19-2007, 11:31 AM
The only one I know about is the 30mm MK 303, which was intended to arm the Type XXI Elektroboote. This was developed at the Czech Brno works under Krieghoff control. After the end of the war the Czechs carried on with the development and it eventually emerged as the M53 AA gun. It was normally seen in a twin mounting on the back of a 6x6 armoured truck. I saw one of these on television being used in the ground support role during the break-up of Yugoslavia in the 1990s. I gather that the remaining ones are now in reserve.

The 30x220 ammo is the biggest in that calibre to see service. See the pic below, from the Ammo Photo Gallery on my website. It is usually known as the 30x210 and I've called it that, but it's incorrect (I must change the caption!):

Edit - sorry, brain fart: the capton is correct, I should have said that it is usually known as the 30x220 but the case does in fact measure 210mm.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/30-2.jpg

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Panzerknacker
01-19-2007, 07:56 PM
Thanks for your help.

Panzerknacker
01-21-2007, 05:52 PM
On request of Tony Williams.

Extracted from Revista Armas magazine Nº 138 november 1995.

In this first pages there is some pics of the aircraft ( the number 27-6 was the Mauser armed craft)

http://i18.tinypic.com/48x2nvd.jpg

Panzerknacker
01-21-2007, 05:55 PM
Pictures of the ammo salvaged from the crash, for those with trained eyes ( like the your and the mines :mrgreen: ) is more than obvius what ammo is...a 20x82mm with AP bullet and steel case.


http://i12.tinypic.com/343jkfq.jpg

Panzerknacker
01-21-2007, 05:59 PM
And the rescued gun, with his serial numbers, the author requested more information from the mother house in Obendorf, the germans answered that all the records about the manufacture in that time were burned out by bombings in the war.

http://i3.tinypic.com/2j10haq.jpg

Panzerknacker
01-22-2007, 07:00 PM
7,92mm and 13 mm effect over a Il-2, the pilots plate withstand both.


http://www.23ag.ru/assets/images/3.jpg

Panzerknacker
01-27-2007, 05:23 PM
Uhumm....Tony ? is someone in there ?

http://es.geocities.com/sagunto1937_1938/images/RHM2A114.jpg

Tony Williams
01-28-2007, 04:31 AM
Thanks very much - very interesting!

That brings forward the recorded date of the first use of the MG 151/20 by several years. I presume it was an early prototype - after all, it wasn't until the experience of the SCW had been absorbed that the Luftwaffe abandoned the MG C30/L in favour of the MG-FF, as an interim weapon until the MG 151 was ready for service - which wasn't until 1941, four years later!

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Panzerknacker
01-30-2007, 09:38 AM
Rheinmetall Maschinen Kanone MK-103

http://img290.imageshack.us/img290/396/mk103ay4.jpg

The good results obtained with the MK-101 and his cartrigde caused that the development of a improved weapon.

The new cannon would be more dedicated to the air-to-air combat, because the heavy weight and slow firing of the MK-101 made very inadecuate for that task.

Once again Rheinmetall Borsig put their hand on work and in the late 1942 they had his new design complete.[/FONT]

The MK 103 used a new system of short recoil with a bolt assisted by a gas to unlock the chamber, a hole in the barrel deviated a small quantity of the combustion gases and move a piston back.

That incremented the speed of the bolt s movement and therefore the rate of fire.

The MK-103 weights 145 kg, had an overall lenght of 2320 mm and his rate of fire was betwenn 380-420 rpm.

There was also a MK 103M variant, that was to be installed in the big V-12 engines like the Jumo 213 and Daimler DB-603. Is worth to note that despite some wrong sources the MK 103 was NEVER put in service with the Me-109K...simply because there was no enough room inside this fighter to put in, for that it would be needed to move the cockpit backwards about 20 cm, and still the gun barrel shall potrude through the Messers nose.

The MK-103M was almost the same as the standar gun, the only differences lay in the ausence of muzzle brake and some minor changes in the feeding system.

http://img114.exs.cx/img114/6453/mk103plano2fg.jpg

Tony Williams
01-30-2007, 11:08 AM
The MK-103 was almost the same as the standar gun, the only differences lay in the ausence of muzzle brake and some minor changes in the feeding system.
Not quite - if you look closely at the diagram you can see that the gas-operation tube of the MK 103M has been deleted - that part of the action had to be redesigned and slimmed-down to fit within the engine blast tube, as the gun had to be pushed further forward to clear the cockpit.

The MK 103M was tried in one Bf 109K-10 but the test was apparently not successful so it does not seem to have seen service. I'm not sure whether that was the model intended to be used by the Ta 152C and the Do 335, or whether a less-modified version of the MK 103 was planned.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Panzerknacker
01-30-2007, 06:41 PM
Not quite - if you look closely at the diagram you can see that the gas-operation tube of the MK 103M has been deleted - that part of the action had to be redesigned and slimmed-down to fit within the engine blast tube, as the gun had to be pushed further forward to clear the cockpit

Damn, you are right, I wonder were the gasses go through ?


MK-103 in attack airplanes:

One of the first user of the new cannon was the Hs-129 from the Sch 1 in the Western front, The HS-129 armed in that way arrived to theirs bases in Ukrania in april 1943. This aircrafts had a stunning performance in the big armoured clash of Kursk.

3 images of the luftwaffe groundcrew feeding the Mk-103.

a)- Introducing the belt, note the mix between the Steel AP and Pzg

40.

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/1463/mk103wt7.jpg



b) Closing the receiver plate.


http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/218/mk1032dj8.jpg



c) -In here the technical oficcer adjust the frontal support jack, this absorbed a big deal of vibration and thus increased the gun saccuracy.

http://img290.imageshack.us/img290/3553/mk1033ur2.jpg

Panzerknacker
02-02-2007, 08:58 PM
MK 103 in Fw-190:

This gun was installed in two containers below the wings. Two types of containes were developed one for the FW-190A-5 and other for the FW-190F-8. The gun in this emplacement was feed by a metallic belts of 32 cartrigdes. It seems that the recoil forces and vibration were too much to the Focke wulf ( despite the strong fabrication of the Wurger wings) and just few aircraft were armed in this way.


FW-190A-5/U11.

http://img346.imageshack.us/img346/7703/mk10330mmxa3.jpg



Teorically the electric ignition in this weapon allow to shoot through the propellers, however the test with an underbelly MK were a complete failure.

Tony Williams
02-04-2007, 06:44 AM
As far as I know, the MK 103-armed Fw 190s never saw action - the project was stopped at the test stage.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Panzerknacker
02-08-2007, 07:02 PM
It probably was used in some Rechlin test.


MK 103 in fighters:


A Ju-88C night fighter with two MK 103 in a underbelly pod, note the angled barrels.

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/9117/ju88p33we0.jpg



The 30 mm high velocity gun also was used in some special Me-262 like the Me-262A-1a/U1, it carry a heavy batterie, 2 x MK 108 plus 2 x Mg-151/20 and two more Mk 103 with 70 rounds per gun potruding through the nose. Just 4 or 5 A-1a/U1 were actually deployed, one was used by Heinz Bär.


http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/6428/me262umc9.jpg



The Ta-152C was one of the few single engine piston aircraft who could handle the MK 103 between the Jumo 213 V.

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/1930/ta9bx.jpg


The Dornier Do-335 was another, in the B-2 variant also were one Mk-103 embeded in each wing.


http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/7510/do335v13bc0.jpg

Tony Williams
02-09-2007, 12:39 AM
The 30 mm high velocity gun also was used in some special Me-262 like the Me-262A-1a/U1, it carry a heavy batterie, 2 x MK 108 plus 2 x Mg-151/20 and two more Mk 103 with 70 rounds per gun potruding through the nose. Just 4 or 5 A-1a/U1 were actually deployed, one was used by Heinz Bär.
I have never understood that armament installation - three different types of gun with three entirely different trajectories - it makes no sense at all.

The Me 262 standard armament of 4 x MK 108 was fine against bombers. If they wanted a higher-velocity armament for long-range fire, then 2 x MK 103 + 2 x 15mm MG 151 would have been a good ballistic match.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Panzerknacker
02-09-2007, 10:04 AM
Perhaps they used the MK 103 for engaging bombers at long range and the other guns for close in combat, not really sure. Is know that Bär destroyed a P-47 with this special Me-262.

Me-262A-1a/U1 nose:

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/9929/me262a1au1photo1yw3.jpg



http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/1904/me262a1au1photo2kl0.jpg




http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/7072/me262a1au1photo3ko5.jpg



http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/5903/me262a1au1photo4hj0.jpg



http://www.stormbirds.net/variants262a1aU1.htm

Panzerknacker
02-13-2007, 08:22 PM
Rheinmetal Borsig MK 108:

In many ways, the Rheinmetall-Borsig MK 108 30mm cannon was considered to be a masterpiece of weapons engineering, due to it's compact size, ease of manufacture and hitting power. Although it was first designed by Rheinmetall-Borsig in 1940 as a private venture, the design was finalized in 1942. It met a later RLM requirement for a new aircraft cannon that could knock down enemy bombers with the lowest expenditure of ammunition.


In the service position.

http://i14.tinypic.com/47ccj1s.jpg[/URL]


In short, the MK 108 was a blow-back operated, rear-seared, belt fed 30 mm cannon using electric ignition and was charged and triggered by simple compressed air. One drawback was that once installed, there was no method to adjust the gun's harmonization. One distinctive physical feature was the very short gun barrel, which gave the MK 108 a low muzzle velocity of 500-510 meters per second. The maximum rate of fire was 650 rounds per minute. The operating sequence for the MK 108 went like this:

An ammunition can fed the rounds to the gun by means of a disintegrating belt
Once the sear was released, the bolt went forward under the action of the two driving springs
A projection on the top of the bolt passed through the ring, thus extracting a round
This then forced the round into the chamber and fired the round while the heavy bolt was still moving forwards
The empty cartridge case reinserted itself in its link after firing
Ejection was achieved by means of pawls activated by camming grooves that were cut into the top of the bolt
Finally, the new round slipped into position and the sequence repeated
With adaptator to DB-605 engine (BF-109G)

http://i13.tinypic.com/2por338.jpg


An interesting feature was that neither the barrel or receiver moved in recoil, the entire force of firing was absorbed by the rearward movement of the bolt against the driving springs, which buffered against the recoil. No locking mechanism was needed, because by the time the fired round had overcome the inertia of the firing bolt, the round had left the barrel and the pressure had dropped.

The nose mounting in a BF-110G.

http://i14.tinypic.com/2qxxf8j.jpg



http://i12.tinypic.com/33mybcy.jpg[URL="http://i12.tinypic.com/33mybcy.jpg"] (http://i14.tinypic.com/47ccj1s.jpg)



There were two main types of ammunition for the MK 108 to use, a 30 mm high-explosive self-destroying tracer ("M-Shell" or "Mine-Shell") and a 30 mm incendiary shell. The first type was designed to cause a maximum blast effect by combining a very thin shell casing with the maximum load of explosive. Tests carried out at Rechlin (where most of the Luftwaffe aircraft and weapons tests were done) showed that with a "M-Shell" with 85 grains of explosive, five hits could destroy a B-17 or B-24 bomber. The second type of shell, the incendiary, was meant to be targeted at the fuel tanks of the enemy plane. Since some penetrating force was still needed to overcome the armor or airframe of the target, and not have the shell break up or explode upon contact, a hydrodynamic fuse was fitted so that the shell only exploded once it came into contact with liquid.


Text by. www.luft46.com (http://www.luft46.com)

Pics and corrections: By me.

Tony Williams
02-23-2007, 03:40 AM
I have a question about the MG 131.

After the war, the Bf 109 continued to be made by the Czechoslovaks as the Avia S-199. The big bulge in the cowling (to make room for the MG 131 gun breeches) sometimes had additions in the form of a long, forward-pointing extension. This was reportedly because they could not get the correct version of the MG 131, so had to use ones intended for the Fw 190 which did not fit so well.

I find this puzzling. The only explanation which comes to mind is that the guns in the Fw 190 might have been made with the ammunition feed on the opposite side? Can you shed any light on this?

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Panzerknacker
02-23-2007, 08:35 AM
Well, the Bf-109G had also the bulges and I dont think that the germans were no able to get the right MG 131.

It seems that the disintegrable links eyection chutes were internal on the Fw-190 and external in the Bf-109.

MG 131 in Bf-109G.

http://i18.tinypic.com/34qlric.jpg



MG 131 in Fw-190A-7.

http://i17.tinypic.com/2prryti.jpg

Tony Williams
02-24-2007, 03:05 PM
An answer to this has appeared:

"On those same last parts, two long bulges are present in addition to
the standard big bulges seen on the 109G-5/6/8/14 cowlings (I would
say this is a variant of the type 050 Bf109G cowling). On some
examples are also present two small bulges above those long ones,
these where covering MG131 recoil shock absorbers designed for FW190s
(which takes more place due to the FW190 larger cowling) the Avia
people had to use because of the lack of Bf109G MG131 recoil shock
absorbers later in the production, that why its seen on the plane...."

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Panzerknacker
03-01-2007, 09:11 PM
Back to the Mk 108.

Fw-190A-8/R2 , from left to right MG-151/20, BSK 16 guncamera, MK 108.

http://i18.tinypic.com/2gwgpk9.jpg



30x91mm RB ammunition:

http://img322.imageshack.us/img322/9659/lrg0201pr9.jpg


Minengeschoss ausf A:

Basic HE ammo, 330 grams bullet carring no less than 85 grams of nitropenta explosive content, to make some comparative a standar stick grenade carry 115 grams of explosive. Impact nose fuse AZ 1587.


http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/5905/mine11sq3.jpg


Minengeschoss ausf A m-Zerleger:

Like the earlier but with a self destruction device wich actuated after 3 seconds, green band on bullet.

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/9456/mine22ja2.jpg

Panzerknacker
03-01-2007, 09:28 PM
3cm Brandgranate-patrone:

Filled with a incendiary bursting charge Ph Mg of 140 grams, 490 m/s initial speed

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/5552/mine33xl5.jpg


Minengeschoss Ausf C L-spur:

He-tracer improved, the ausf C ammo was a streamlined desing in order to achieve a more straight flying path. The ausf C carried a litle less explosive filling, about 72 grams. The base of the projectile allowed a traced element .The muzzle speed was 510 m/s.

http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/2273/mine44lp1.jpg



Minengeschoss Ausf c glimmspur:

http://img280.imageshack.us/img280/3157/mine55xl9.jpg


Same as avobe described, but a with a dimer, non smoke tracer for low light/ night shooting.


http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/5557/dibujoyl9.jpg


Minengeschoss Ausf c glimmspur M -zerleger:

Same as above but with self destruction. Very much used for the Night fighters in Reichs defense.

Panzerknacker
03-13-2007, 09:28 PM
Test Mk-108 vs Spifire.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZZGaEEi8Ek (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZZGaEEi8Ek)

genkideskan
03-14-2007, 08:09 AM
Free download,

Manual german proofing ground Rechlin 1943

Cartridges, color codes, projectiles, cases, primers, fuzes

factory drawings ---

http://rapidshare.com/files/20968034/Luftwaffe.pdf.html

Panzerknacker
03-14-2007, 12:26 PM
Nice, I put something of that in my Luftwaffe guns topic.

Librarian
03-14-2007, 06:50 PM
Thank you very much, Mr. Genkiedeskan. Indeed, it represents a very interesting publication. :)

Panzerknacker
03-25-2007, 05:19 PM
Bordkanone BK 3,7 , part I:

http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/4386/37cm1sl2.jpg

The bordkanone series in one comprised of land weapons adapted to aeronautical use.The luftwaffe favoured the 3,7 gun mostly for two purposes:


To engage bombers outside the range of their defensive machineguns
To destroy armor more efficiently than the MK 101/103.
The BK 3,7 used the long recoil system to operate, a hidropneumatic damper cilinder was used to absorb the heavy recoil in the gun mounting.
It was feeded by one or two clips of 6 rounds. The ciclic rate was 140-150 rpm.

The gun had an overall length of 3750mm and it weights 295 kg.


Use in attack aircrafts:

The first aircraft to use the BK were some Ju-88 sin the variant JU-88P-2, this a/c had a couple of 37mm cannons in a large underbelly pod, the aircraft was front tested in late 1942 and probed to be effective agaist armor and artillery emplacements but too vulnerable to russian Flak.

Ju-88P-2.
http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/aww2/ju88p/ju88p-4.jpg


The first really succesful use was achieved when it was installed on Stukas, in march 1943 an special detachment named "Panzerjagdkommando Weiss" tested in Crimea the first Stuka G-1. This variant was fabricated from JU-87D-5 with the wings MG 17s deleted and the large weapon used instead.

The strong wing of the Stuka designed to withstand the bomb load and the heavy G forces in high angles dived recuperations was very satisfactory when coupled with the BK shock absorber. The Panzerjagdkommando Weiss entered in action inmediatly over the russian bridgehead of Kuban destroying tanks and attacking ships. The famous stuka ace Rudel claimed as many as 70 landing boats destroyed with his new G-1.

Armorer with a 6 round clip, note that is a clip already inserted in the loading plate.

http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/5762/bk37closetz7.jpg


Gun armonization in a Ju-87G-2. Quite loud.

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/8712/33jt6.jpg


Guncam showing the effects of this weapon on russian landing ships:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU6OK1zSxKg&mode=related&search=

Tony Williams
03-25-2007, 09:34 PM
The BK 3,7 installations were later modified to take 8 or 12 rounds each.

Panzerknacker
04-16-2007, 09:18 PM
BK 3,7 part II, in Hs-129:

The most proficient tank-killer of the luftwaffe was also equipped with this cannon. although in small number.

Some Hs-129B-2 wre converted to use an single BK in large ventral bay, this was feeded with a 12 shots clip. This variant ws called Hs-129B-2 /Wa (waffenträger= weapon carrier)

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/6123/b2wawx6.jpg



The counterrecoil cilinder was mounted below the gun, in the same way as the Luftwaffe field AA gun. Is idle to mention that despite the reduction in power compared with the Ju-87 this emplacement had the advantage of an easier gun armonization.

Factory shots, the last section of the barrel is not in place:

http://i16.tinypic.com/44hj9ch.jpg


http://img307.imageshack.us/img307/3674/gondolabkcarenadank1.jpg


Just 25-35 of this variant were ever used.


And that is all for tonight boys, going to eat something :cool:

genkideskan
04-21-2007, 12:57 PM
Hello here are some close ups of the famous Waffenbehälter 81 Z.

The manual told us that one WB was firing forward fired by the pilot and one WB (mostly the right wing one) fired afterwards controlled by the reargunner.
Designed for the Ju 88 and Ju 57 the WB was used with a lot of other planes.

Panzerknacker
04-22-2007, 09:35 PM
Thanks for that document GK.

tankgeezer
04-27-2007, 02:58 PM
7,92 mm x 57 ammunition, part 2:

Bullet markings for the high pressure V ammo:

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/3085/profil8lb8.jpg
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/3582/profil11or3.jpg

The armor piercing round penetrate 10 mm steel plate at 100 meters in a 90 degrees angle.

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/807/copiedegurt1z71js4.jpg


This cartrigdes were told to not be used in the standar infantry weapons, nevertheless some soldier of the Luftwaffe do it , the strong K-98 action withstand the V bullets without any trouble.
Would this weapon, and its ammo be the one the British BESA gun, and ammo were based upon? This ammo was also not recommended for use in bolt rifles, but the Mod-98 would hold it fine. i have fired hundreds of rounds of it, with no ill effect on the rifle. but do not use it in the older 8mm rifles like the M-88, it'll crack for sure. - Raspenau -

Panzerknacker
04-27-2007, 06:05 PM
The Besa was based in a czech gun. Is the same cartrigde case but I dont know if that tank MG was capable to handle the high pressure verbersserte ammo.

Tony Williams
04-27-2007, 08:26 PM
The British-made 7.92x57 ball loading for the Besa fired a 198 grain bullet at 2,500 fps (12.83g at 762 m/s). The AP bullet weighed 178 grains and was fired at at 2,580 fps (11.5g at 786 m/s). These were to standard specifications, not the v-Munition.

tankgeezer
04-27-2007, 09:29 PM
Thanks for the quick reply, I wasnt sure if it was the same, but thought I would ask. -Raspenau -

Panzerknacker
04-28-2007, 11:55 AM
You have all the experts togheter in here Tank G. :mrgreen:


Me-110G-2/R1 over München, ZG 76 February 1944, note the underbelly pod with BK 3,7.

http://i18.tinypic.com/40fuo44.jpg


http://i3.tinypic.com/2q1rwwg.jpg

Splinter54
04-28-2007, 01:06 PM
Me-110G-2/R1 over München, ZG 76 February 1944, note the underbelly pod with BK 3,7.


I don´t think that this picture was taken over München :neutral:

I once visited the old Airport at Schleißheim once and it was the only Air Base for Me110's around München and as far as i know the only 110's which had seen action here had been these with the Lichtensteinradar and mostly Nachtjäger - i think this picture was taken near the front ;)

If you are interested vistit this page - the old halls and buildings are owned by the Deutsches Museum and you can also see a He111 (i read it was an Spanish CA something ^^) near some other nice planes (e.g. a Storch)
Nearby is also a veeerrryy nice Chateau (Schloss Schleißheim) and interresting to know is, that inside the garden was a huuuggee command bunker for the Airforce Units around Munich - especially used for the Abfangjäger Einsätze (it has a strange name - can´t remember) - after the war it was blown up and you can now only see the wonderful Barok-Styled Garden.

http://www.deutsches-museum.de/flugwerft/information

http://www.hotel-erb.de/flugwerft_schleissheim_muenchen.aspx?lang=en

Wow also in the Axis Factbook registered:
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=112

Panzerknacker
04-28-2007, 01:55 PM
That information was taken from "Zerstörer aces of WW2" by John Weal/Osprey publishing.

Perhaps that british author is wrong, or maybe those are from a base outside Munich but deployed over that city, note that some Messers had 2x300 liters droptanks to increase range.

Cutaway
04-29-2007, 08:50 PM
http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/data/535/Samaka_GPMG_Mount.JPG

Similar to Meroka weapons, The SaMaKa or "Salvenmaschinenkanonen", was a German 'Flak Gun' mount using multiple MG81 7.92mm GPMG's for rapid fire purposes.

Panzerknacker
04-30-2007, 09:00 AM
That is firepower ¡¡ :shock:

Cutaway
05-04-2007, 01:08 PM
Any images of the MG81?

Tony Williams
05-04-2007, 02:44 PM
Similar to Meroka weapons, The SaMaKa or "Salvenmaschinenkanonen", was a German 'Flak Gun' mount using multiple MG81 7.92mm GPMG's for rapid fire purposes.

Not really similar to the Meroka, except in having lots of barrels. The Meroka is a volley gun and does not consist of many separate MGs.

Panzerknacker
05-04-2007, 06:12 PM
Any images of the MG81?


Sure are, check the first page of this topic.

Panzerknacker
05-19-2007, 01:51 PM
Use of the BK 3,7 cm in the Me-110G:

In the late 1943 the Messerschmitt Me-110 was also choosen to carry the 37mm gun. In order to acomodate the large cannon and his dampening system it was turned 90 degrees to the right to lay flat in a underbelly pod.

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/2756/g2r5ep4.jpg


This emplacemente allowed th rear gunner to feed the gun with 6 rounds clips. about 10 clips were carried (60 rounds) wich ensure a large autonomy of fire.


http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/9968/bk375kv2ni5.jpg

An stainless steel plate was placed below the aircrafts nose to counter the big muzzle flash and exhaust gases wich might affect the duraluminium skin.

This emplacemente was not completely satisfactory since the gun was not centered in the fuselage and caused some stability troubles when fired. That affected accuracy. Also the large bulge download the speed and rate of climb. Despite this odds several bomber were destroyed .

This gun-aircraft pair was used almost exclusively in the western front by the ZG 76 heavy fighter group. The increasing pressure of the single engine allied escort fighter made very difficult the operation of this overload Messers and by early 1944 they were replaced by Me-410s and Fw-190s.

tankgeezer
05-19-2007, 02:17 PM
Rheinmetall Borsig MG-131 part 1:

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9099/rheinborsigqj1.jpg

Following a direct order from Göring staff, the Rheinmetall firm was again in charge to develop a new weapon, this time a medium calibre MG. The work began in 1935 but made little progress until early 1939 when the the german technicians finished this 13 mm gun.

This was a belt feed, air cooled, it weights 17,5 kg and shoot at 930 rpm (non-sincronizated). The feeding system was interchangeable for left or right feed with only minor parts changing.

This weapon also used the short recoil mechanism , the barrel actually go back some 19 milimeters and then the bolts lock is disengaged. As in the MG 17 a gas trap aided the recoiling part in order to improve the rate of fire. This mechanism of recoil plus a locking sleeve was patented by Louis Stange in 1933 and slightly changed for the use in this caliber.


MG-131 for flexible mountings.

http://i7.tinypic.com/2czwx6o.jpg


This machinegun deploys a very compact desing with his barrel just 593 mm in lenght and a light weight considering his half inch caliber, however that prerrogatives brings some limitations, the cartrigde case was short compared with those used in the U.S Browning M2 .50 or the Russian Berezin UB de 12,7x108mm.

Nevertheless it was a more reliable weapon than the earliers and it had a higher rate of fire. This Mg was first introduced in limited numbers in November 1940. The fisrt aircraft in wich saw some service was the bomber Do-217E , it carry a cuple of flexible guns one in a ventral turret and other in a powered dorsal turret.

In the fighters was introduced firts in the Bf-109G-5 and the Fw-190A-7. Originally the Fw-190A was designed to carry a Mg-131 in each wingroots, it was tested in some prototipes but none A series carry this armament being replaced by a MG-17 and then for a heavier Mg-151/20 cannon.

Mg-131 in Fw-190V5 wingroot.

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/4011/mg131v5ph1.jpg



That gun was put ion service in great scale in 1941, replacing and complementing the 8 mm Mgs in aircraft such Fw-200, Ju-88, Ju-90. Ju-290, Ju-52. etc.


The "eyes", double Mg-131 mounting behind armored glass in the rear Ju-88A-4 cockpit.

http://i18.tinypic.com/4bxogvm.jpg

Quite a piercing gaze you have my dear,,,,,

Panzerknacker
05-20-2007, 01:35 PM
O thanks, Is just that I love this topic.

Panzerknacker
05-20-2007, 02:35 PM
37x263B ammunition for BK-3,7.

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/4469/explosivarrdp4.jpg


The ammo for the BK was completely interchangeable with the army ground guns. The cartrigde was comprised by a long slightly bottlenecked steel case with percussion primer.


Hartkern panzergranate L-spur.

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/2171/panzergranateiu8.jpg


The most efficient agaist armor was onbiously the reputed hard-core with tracer. The projectile had a 16mm tugsten rod encased in a aluminum-magnesium envelope and a base tracer element.


Hartkern squematic:

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/3520/37hkki0.jpg


The weigh was 405 grams and the muzzle spped enormous...1170 m/s . This allowed the bullet go trough 130 mm steel plate at 100 meters according to Rechlin Test, obviously this amazing penetration was reduced a bit in field conditions but still the cannon was more than a macht for the T-34, Sherman, and KV armor. The energy was the same at 400 meters that the MK-103 in the muzzle.


Mine-panzergranate 3,7cm.

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/5554/minenhb5.jpg


Base fused 720 grams projectile. This was a mine ammo with a thick nose to allowed some armor penetration before exploding. His payload was 220 grams of Nitropenta. Muzzle speed 783 meters per second.

tankgeezer
05-20-2007, 06:58 PM
O thanks, Is just that I love this topic.many pardons, but I just could not resist a little joke,,, I do like the 37mm gun! that would be fun to shoot.Though I am glad I wasnt the pilot, or ground target it was aimed at.. did it have a primary use, (air to air, close ground support, anti armor.) or was it a general use weapon? It does remind me of the A-10 Warthog. - Raspenau -

Panzerknacker
05-21-2007, 12:18 PM
For every use, but it was most succesful in the antiarmor role.

Panzerknacker
05-22-2007, 10:57 PM
37 mm tugsten ammo box, it seems like some presentation wines box :D:

http://img485.imageshack.us/img485/5162/carga1xi9.jpg


Loading.

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/2330/gggfb9.jpg

tankgeezer
05-23-2007, 10:18 PM
A fine vintage indeed! quite effervescent when uncorked I bet.

Panzerknacker
05-23-2007, 11:46 PM
Bordkanone Rheinmetall BK-5:

This gun is the result of the adaptation of the tank gun Kwk 39/1 to aeronautical use.

http://i13.tinypic.com/44sl6yf.jpg

Teorically the BK 5 could be used towards any aerial or ground target but his main reason to development was that the five centimeter shell promise the definately destruction of a 4 engined bomber with a single shot in that way it was the "Final solution" against the B-17 and B-24.

The Kwk 39 was used in the Panzer III ausf J, L, M, and the heavy armored car "Puma", also was projected to mount in the recce tank "Leopard" wich never saw service.

The gun was a single shot, 60 calibres long recoil operated hydro pneumatic recuperation system and semiautomatic breech, that means in every shot the entire barrel recoil togheter , in the last mm of the travel back the chamber is opened and extract the used cartrigde cocking the action and leaving this ready to insert the next round. Once the new round is inserted the breech is automatically close and the gun is ready to fire.




The modification suffered to became the BK 5 were:

A) Barrel lenght , the tube was shortened about 0.5 m and provided with a single chamber multiple perforations muzzle brake.

B) Loading; to improve the rate of fire the manual loading was deleted, and a pneumatically assisted system used. The barrel in the recoil movement engaged a series of electric switches and mechanichal levers.
Those were in charge to command a rammer, a extractor and the mechanism to turn closed belt.

This mechanism was in charge to insert the used round back in the belt and to introduce a fresh cartrigde, the gun was fired just a moment after the breech was closed. The 2400kg recoil of the weapon was alleviated by a hydraulic damper.

Compressed air circuits in BK 5.

http://i13.tinypic.com/2mdmq7k.jpg


The feeding was provided by a closed belt of 22 rounds, the rate of fire was 45-50 rpm. Pneumatic power came from 2 big compressed air bottles.

Rammer pushing a shell into the chamber.

http://i18.tinypic.com/2nw0nj5.jpg


The BK 5 was installed in the Me-410, some variants of the JU-88, JU-288 and He-177.

Characteristics:

Operation system: Pneumatically assisted long recoil.

Barrel lenght :2700 mm.

Total lenght :3790 mm.

Weight: 520 kg.

Rate of fire: 45-50 dpm

Ammunition: 50mm x 420R ( KwK 39, Pak 38)


In Junkers Ju-88P-4 from VII/Kampfgruppe 1, sometimes this gun is mixed up with the larger BK of 75 mm.

http://i11.tinypic.com/2rm06x4.jpg

Tony Williams
05-24-2007, 01:08 AM
This photo of Luftwaffe AP ammunition (from the Ammunition Photo Gallery on my website) shows how the different sizes of aircraft gun ammo compare.

There's also an article on my site about the airborne tankbuster guns and ammo HERE (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm)

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/FGww2APcarts2e.jpg

Panzerknacker
05-24-2007, 06:40 PM
Nice, to be honest with you I stole that picture a month ago to post in another forum, I give you the credit off course.;)

Tony Williams
05-24-2007, 07:57 PM
Nice, to be honest with you I stole that picture a month ago to post in another forum, I give you the credit off course.;)

I don't mind people using stuff from my forum, as long as they mention me and provide a link :cool:

Panzerknacker
05-24-2007, 08:00 PM
Thanks Tony.

By the way, you know if the ammo used in the BK 5 was electrically primed, because I read somewhere that the KwK 39 was shot "By electric means"

http://www.stormbirds.net/images_technical/mk214_3.jpg

http://www.stormbirds.net/images_technical/mk214_4.jpg

http://www.stormbirds.net/images_technical/mk214_5.jpg


http://www.stormbirds.net/images_technical/mk214_6.jpg

Tony Williams
05-24-2007, 08:40 PM
Yes, electric priming was standard in the larger tank guns - but not in towed artillery. So, for instance, the ammunition for the 88mm L/56 was not interchangeable between the KwK and FlaK guns, despite being physically identical.

Panzerknacker
05-25-2007, 09:47 AM
Thanks again, I was aware of the mechanical detonation in the field guns since there was no electrical supply. The tank guns was my doubt.

Me-410A-1/U4 from ZG 26 heavy fighter group, 5 killmarks are displayed in the barrel of the BK 5.

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/6242/zg26ii1gj.jpg

Panzerknacker
06-05-2007, 09:36 PM
Me-410 in combat with BK 5:

http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/368/me410a111s7ir.jpg

Browsing the page http://www.luftarchiv.de I ve found some interesting information of the use of this weapon in the me-410A-1/U4.



Im Einsatz sind vor allem bei der Verwendung der so genannten BK/M.Gr. bemerkenswerte Erfolge erzielt worden; so hat z. B. eine Gruppe von 53 Me 410 A-1/U4, mit der BK 5 bei 6 Feindflügen im Zeitraum vom 22. Februar bis 11. April 1944 insgesamt 129 Stück der B-17 "Fortress" Bomber und 4 Stück der B-24 "Liberator" bei nur 9 Eigenverlusten abgeschossen. wie die Abschüsse von 9 "Fortress" Bombern aus etwa 800 m Entfernung am 9. und 11. April 1944 bewiesen.


My german is poor, but the thing that I can understand here is that a heavy Fighter group was equipped with 53 Messers 410A-1/u4.

In the time period between 22 th february and 11 th april those carried out 6 separate missions and destroyed...129 B-17 Flying Fortress and 9 B-24 Liberators :shock:, with only nine own losses ( Me-410 destroyed by bombers or escort fighters)
9 Fortress were destroyed with shots at 800 meters in 9th april and 11th april.

The number seems high to me but if true is pretty amazing.

Me-410 pull after a pass over B-24 of 388 BG.

http://i18.tinypic.com/4780zmx.jpg


Ltn Fröz aircraft in II/ZG 26, the killmarks belong to 3 B-17s shot down in april 1944 (extracted from Me-210/410 in action/Squadron Signal)

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/1038/bk58tl.jpg

Tony Williams
06-06-2007, 12:41 AM
Me-410 in combat with BK 5:

The number seems high to me but if true is pretty amazing.

The key word is "if"....

Panzerknacker
06-06-2007, 01:39 PM
Perhaps is the total number of bombers destroyed by Me-410s, and those included the ones destroyed with the BK-5, not sure about that.

http://i3.tinypic.com/2s1nh8w.gif



Me-410B-2/U4 captured and tested by the VVS. Note the telescopic gunsight ZFR 4.

http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/me410/me410-11.jpg


http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/me410/me410-9.jpg


http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/me410/me410-c6.jpg

John Vasco
06-07-2007, 03:54 PM
To correct information on page 4 of this thread. No Bf 110 Es were fitted with the MG101 30 mm Kanone. Their designation was 'C-6'. Only 12 were ever built and issued from the factory. It is known that three ended up with III./ZG 26 in the Mediterranean theatre. What might lead to confusion is the fact that they received tropical modifcations, making it appear they were 'E's.

ww2admin
06-07-2007, 06:04 PM
The picture of the ME410 pulling off the wing of the "B-24" is actually, I think, a B-17. I'm not too sure, but I do know the pilot is Lefty Gardner, one of the pioneers of the Commemorative Air Force which used to be known as the Confederate Air Force and the predecessor for the modern day airshow. I know this because he was my boss for a few years when I volunteered at a loacl air musem in Texas.

Panzerknacker
06-07-2007, 07:17 PM
To correct information on page 4 of this thread. No Bf 110 Es were fitted with the MG101 30 mm Kanone. Their designation was 'C-6'. Only 12 were ever built and issued from the factory. It is known that three ended up with III./ZG 26 in the Mediterranean theatre. What might lead to confusion is the fact that they received tropical modifcations, making it appear they were 'E's.


Well if you look at this it said more or less the same.


Maschinen Kanone MK-101 de 30mm. Part 1

In the Mk-101 gave a strong locking system but a slow rate of fire, about 250 rpm.

This 30 mm automatic cannon weights (unloaded) 176 kg, had an overall lenght of 2640 mm, is pneumatically triggered and feeded by a 30 rounds drum magazine.


In service:

The Mk-101 was first introduced in the heavy fighter Me-110C-6. There was big plans for this fighter and his armament. Almost the entire production of Me-110C-6 went to the special formation Erprobungsgruppe 210, this group had the task to test special weapons and tactics, ( and teorically introduce the Me-210 in front line service) also it participated in the attacks against the radar station and naval transports of Britain coast. The C-6 had his MG-FF guns deleted to save weight. After some successes the disaster struck the Erpbg 210 formation when it lost his commander Walther Rubensdoffer to the Spitfires.

Me-110C-6 with ventral Mk-101.

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/9195/mk101bf110ye8.jpg



The same without fairing.


http://i11.tinypic.com/3ydh9o4.jpg



The surviving aircraft wen to some ZG heavy fighter squadrons.

The mounting in the african Messers seems pretty different than the C-6 wich is more embed in the fuselage. But you could be right if those wre adopted to drum feeding.



The picture of the ME410 pulling off the wing of the "B-24" is actually, I think, a B-17. I'm not too sure, but I do know the pilot is Lefty Gardner, one of the pioneers of the Commemorative Air Force which used to be known as the Confederate Air Force and the predecessor for the modern day airshow. I know this because he was my boss for a few years when I volunteered at a loacl air musem in Texas

Thanks for your input, I am correcting that right away.

Panzerknacker
06-08-2007, 11:22 AM
Mauser MK 214:

http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/1999/mk214aplano3kwiu7.jpg


The fitting of the Mk214 to the Me 262 was an effort to create an effective bomber-killer that could attack enemy formations from long range without being subjected to the bomber's defensive fire. It was estimated that a single hit from a 50mm cannon would be sufficient to cripple an Allied bomber. The development, by Mauser, of a 50mm nose mounted cannon was thought to be the answer. The resulting variant was designated the Me262A-1/U4 and was known as the Pulkzerstörer.


MK-214 in Messers P-1112 projeckt.

http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/6984/1112dwg5oo7.jpg

The funcioning was the same as in BK 5 , the weapon was feed from the leftof the weapon. The cartridge was released by the ejector, which opened a wedge catch. This catch locked into place whilst the loading platform ran back into its resting position, ready to load the next shell. At this point, the firing sequence for the first shell could take place. Two electrical contacts closed in preparation for shell ejection, and these were activated by the interlocking of the wedge, and also by the loading platform being in its stationary default position. These switches operated the electric ignition of the cartridge, which in turn fired the weapon. At this stage, the ejector opened, and moved the wedge catch, allowing the ejection of the used cartridge. The 2400kg recoil of the weapon was alleviated by a hydraulic damper. The renewed introduction of the loading procedure took place pneumatically.

The more distintive characteristics in the increased rate of fire wich demanded a lot of effort from the Dipl Ing. Lindbau team one of the best weapons designer on the Mauser firm. The ammo belt follow the contour of the triangular shaped nose in the Me-262 and it carry more ammo than BK 5, 32 rounds.


Pulkszertorer:

This large 50mm weapon took up the entire nose section with the barrel sticking out some 10 feet. The 4x MK 108 battery was deleted and the only aditional equipment left was the 16mm guncamera.

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/9475/me262mk21441gg7.jpg

So extreme was the installation that the nosegear was modified to rotate 90° during retraction, enabling the wheel to lie flat as opposed to the usual configuration. A revised wheel well door arrangement was also created to deal with the new layout. Incredibly, the colossal weight and shape of the "phone pole" sticking out of the nose didn't have much effect on the flight characteristics of the jet.

Loading an HE round.

http://img149.exs.cx/img149/2254/mk21421gf.jpg

Two aircraft were manufactured in the Me-262 A-1a/U4 "bomber formation destroyer" Wk/nr 111899 y 170083) . One was adopted in early 1945 by Gallands JV 44 jet fighter group and used by the former night fighter ace Willy Herget.

Panzerknacker
06-11-2007, 09:29 AM
More images of the MK 214 emplacemente in the Me-262 Pulkzerstörer.

http://i2.tinypic.com/r01g8z.jpg



JV 44 aircraft.

http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/1531/herget1zc4.jpg




http://i9.tinypic.com/29oiqhc.jpg

Panzerknacker
06-13-2007, 10:44 PM
5cm ammunition for BK 5 & MK 214:

The rimmed 50x420mm cartrigde was the same used in the tanks guns, externally it have also the same measures of the pak 38 but was not interchangeable with this because his electric primer.

5cm Panzergranate 39:

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/1738/50mmft0.jpg

Well know armor piercing capped, high explosive tracer ammo, projectile weight 2,06 kg, muzzle speed 823 m/s.
Penetration: 58 mm of rolled armor at 500 meters


5 cm Panzergranate 40:

Armor piercing composite rigid, aluminium envelope. projectile weight 0,95 kg, Muzzle speed 1140 m/s. Penetration 73mmm armor at 500 m.


5 cm Sprenggranate L-spur.

Explosive fragmentation round, projectile weight 1,96 kg, explosive filling 550 m/s. Muzzle speed 550 m/s.


5cm minengesschos L-spur m-zerleger.

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/247/minenmf8.jpg

Even it sound superflous to design a thin walled round for this calibre the performance of the 50mm mine was impressive. 920 m/s of initial speed. The filling was no less than 350 grams of nitropenta wich means it can destroy any aircraft with a single hit. total weight of the projectile 1,76 kg. Provided with tracer and self-destruction element.


5cm Minen cutaway.

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/3698/30669339dl0.jpg


First image above taken form the Tony Williams website.;)

Panzerknacker
06-20-2007, 09:14 PM
Rheinmetall Borsig BK 7,5 (I):

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/9908/hhhhhhhhhne6.jpg

Following a similar way as with the earlier BK 5 the Rheinmetal team adapted the terrestrial antitank Pak 40 75mm gun to an airborne use.

There was no doubts what was going to be the use of this weapon, the target was to destroy armored vehicles even the heaviest ones. The gun would be capable to defeat tanks in wich the MK-101 bullets just bounce as tennis balls.


The way of functioning was the long recoil assisted with a pneumatic sistem. Feeding was done from a carrousel like 12 rounds 75mm circular shaped magazine.


BK 7,5 in Junkers projeckt.

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/2393/bk75gu8.jpg


The first experimentation with this cannon took place in late 1942 when some JU-88A-4 were modificated as P-1 variant, this bomber deleted the bomb bay and carried instead a heavy bulge with the BK-7,5. Due the large loss of performance all the instalation was jettisonable by means of 4 small explosive charges. In case of being pursuited by Fighter the Junkers could drop the weapon and regain some speed.

The Ju-88P-1 was used by some KG attacks groups and tested by the great ace Hans Rudel but due the excesive clumsiness of the airplane it was not a success. A small batch of He-177s were also equipped with the BK 7.5 for maritime attack:

Ju-88P-1 III/KG 1, eastern Front November 1942.

http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/aww2/ju88p/ju88p-c1.jpg





He-177A-3/R5

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/6358/he177a3fw9.gif

Tony Williams
06-21-2007, 05:33 AM
There were two versions of the 7,5cm airborne anti-tank gun, both based on the PaK 40.

The original version, still known as the PaK 40, was installed in the Ju 88. This had a vertical magazine but was only semi-automatic - there was a loader in the fuselage who pulled a lever (or something) to load each round.

The fully-automatic version was the BK 7,5, this had the rotary maagzine as illustrated above and was installed inn the Hs 129.

Panzerknacker
06-21-2007, 12:47 PM
Interesting, thanks, do you have some squematic of the vertical magazine ?

http://img107.echo.cx/img107/3111/ju88p21nz.jpg

Tony Williams
06-21-2007, 02:29 PM
Interesting, thanks, do you have some squematic of the vertical magazine ?


I'm sorry, I don't.

genkideskan
07-01-2007, 06:55 PM
Hello Panzerknacker,

do you have the original magazine. I wouldt like to know if the headstamp of the 20mm cartridge is mentioned in the article.

Is it possible to get an better scan of the guns markings?

There is of course a MG151 but in 15mm in that time ?!

Thanks a lot

Panzerknacker
07-02-2007, 08:15 AM
Sorry but I dont have those pictures available, there was no image of the headstamp in the original magazine.

genkideskan
07-02-2007, 08:48 AM
Thank you very much for the answer.

Couldt you please translate the text to the pictures ??

So the plane was identified as an DO 17 ?

Did they write where and when the plane crashed ??

Panzerknacker
07-02-2007, 12:18 PM
http://i11.tinypic.com/6cgheuf.jpg


Monument for the aviators shot down in Sierra de la Venta. (Torneria post)
At the right: Cover of the electric input in the MG 151 of 20mm.
It was found between the remains of the Do-17 shoot down in Sierra de la Venta. The number 46323e can be read.

The Do-17 crashed in Sierra de la Venta, province of Asturias.

The MG 151 is in the Air force Museum, Madrid.

genkideskan
07-02-2007, 08:09 PM
Thank you very much for the informations and translation.:shock:

Panzerknacker
07-02-2007, 08:20 PM
By the way the Do-17 was bring down the 4th september 1937.

Panzerknacker
07-04-2007, 11:03 PM
No problem.

BK-7,5 in Hs-129B.

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/2697/img10ob7.jpg

Despite the failure of the Ju-88 the luftwaffe insisted and sought another more reliable gun platform for the BK.

The outcomer was the Hs-129 "Fliegende Pak", a BK-7,5 was placed in a experimental Hs-129B in late 1943 and that make the birth of the B-3 variant.

The B-3 installed the 75mm automatic gun in a bulgeous belly pod and his 12 shot rotating magazine fully embeded in the fuselage. The empy cases were ejected in the rear of the bulge.
This mounting was not jettisonable and due the Hs-129 never received his promised Isotta-Fraschini 1000hp radials it reduced the max speed about 48 mk/h.


http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/8771/1esquemamv6.jpg


http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/8572/2esquemaob5.jpg


The gun was aimed by a Zielfenrohr 4x telescopic gunsight placed below the normal reflex Revi C-12.

Despite the performace shortcomings the mounting was reliable and powerful, most of the 26 B-3 manufactured were used by the attack squadron SlachtGeschwader 9 (SG 9) over East Prussia, Poland and the Reich territory in the closing months of 1944 and 1945.

In several cases they achieved kills over heavies like the Iosif Stalin tank with a single shot.

The total weight of the BK 7,5 and his feeder in this variant was 1100 kg and his rate of fire 30-35 round per minute.


HS-129B-3.

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/6541/img7rb1.jpg

Panzerknacker
07-06-2007, 09:03 PM
Browsing this topic I realize that I had not put the ammo for the MK-101/103, so right away....

Ammunition of 30x184B for R-B Mk-101/103:

Some examples of ammunition of 30x184B, the cartrigdes used by the MK-101 had percussion primer, the ones used by the Mk-103 had electric primer.

Panzergranate 40 L-spur :

http://i12.tinypic.com/2h6x8ye.jpg

The favorite against soviet tanks, It had a 16 mm diameter and 231 grams tugten carbide core and base tracer. Muzzle velocity 960 m/s. Penetration about 80 mm of homogeneous armor at 100 meters. Projectile weight 330 grams.

Panzerbrandgranate Elektron:

http://i10.tinypic.com/5xr3z8p.jpg

Armor piercing incendiary, Steel shot filled with elektron , 410 grams, muzzle speed about 700-710 m/s. Penetration 32 mm armor at 150 meters.


3 cm Minengranate L-spur O. Zerl.

http://i13.tinypic.com/5z43zux.jpg

High explosive mine type, 330 grams, with day tracer but without self destruction device. Muzzle speed 900 m/s.


Panzersprenggbrandgranate L-spur M. Zerleger.

http://i17.tinypic.com/673tyc6.jpg

The devoted antitank aircrafts like the Hs-129 could use also this variant, an armor piercing, explosive incendiary amunition, with day tracer and self destruction...All in one ¡¡¡
The steel core bullet have a ballistic cap and filling of explosive nitropenta and incendiary Elektron. Weight 450 grams, muzzle speed 700 m/s.

Panzerknacker
07-09-2007, 07:59 PM
Any chance tyo know more about this, Is a captured weapon ?

Is german one ?

Pics from: "Rohrwaffen in der Luftwaffe (I) Waffenstande/Manfred Griel Podzun Pallas Verlag.

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/3998/404hd9.jpg



http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/6548/4042fb9.jpg

windrider
07-10-2007, 11:52 AM
second picture looks like a Do-24. (as you can clearly see the double tail in background)

As for a Do-26, here's what I found. (no mention of a MG 404...)
Source: http://www.century-of-flight.freeola.com/Aviation%20history/coming%20of%20age/flying%20boats/Dornier%20Do.26.htm

Dornier Do.26
Arguably the most beautiful flying boat ever manufactured, the Dornier Do 26 was constructed for Lufthansa to meet the requirement of a trans-Atlantic mail and passenger carrier.
Dornier by this time had extensive experience in manufacturing flying boats, as well as the novel tandem engine approach seen on so many of his aircraft. The rear engines were hinged upward during takeoff to avoid the propeller tips striking the water.
Upon the outbreak of war, the Luftwaffe took charge of all six Do 26s and utilized them for operations in the fiords of Norway, as well as general patrol and staff transport duties. In service, it was armed with a 20mm MG151 in the nose turret and MG15s in the beam hatch positions and mid-fuselage blisters. No bombs or depth charges were carried.
The boats were quite weakly armed and slow, so they were quickly relegated to behind-the-lines duties, where general attrition and lack of spares caused them to fade from service.
None survive today.

Type: Transatlantic Mail or Coastal Patrol flying boat
Origin: Dornier-Werke GmbH.
Models: V1 to V6, and D
First Flight: May 21, 1938
Service Delivery: 1940
Final Delivery: N/A
Crew: Four

Engine:
Do 26V6:
Model: Junkers Jumo 205D Diesels
Type: Each with six double-ended cylinders
and 12 opposed pistons
Number: Four Horsepower: 880 hp

Do 26A:
Model: Junkers Jumo 205 Diesels
Type: Each with six double-ended cylinders
and 12 opposed pistons
Number: Four Horsepower: 600 hp

Do 26D:
Model: Junkers Jumo 205Ea Diesels
Type: Each with six double-ended cylinders
and 12 opposed pistons
Number: Four Horsepower: 700 hp


Dimensions:
Wing span: 30m (98 ft. 5¼ in.)
Wing Surface Area: 120.0m² (1,291 sq. ft.)
Length: 24.60m (80 ft. 8½ in.)
Height: 6.85m (22 ft. 5¾ in.)


Weights:
Empty:
Do 26V6: 11,300kg (24,912 lbs.)
Do 26A: 10,700kg (23,589 lbs.)
Loaded:
Do 26V6: 22,500kg (49,601 lbs.)
Do 26A: 20,000kg (44,092 lbs.)

Performance:
Maximum Speed: 201 mph (324 kph)
Cruise Speed: N/A
Range: 7100 km (4,412 miles)
Initial Climb: N/A
Endurance: N/A
Service Ceiling: N/A

Armament:
20mm MG 151 in a bow turret
Three aft firing 7.92mm MG 15 machine guns.

Payload:
12 Fully-Equipped troops

Notes:
The Do 26 had a gull wing and retractable floats. The push/pull arrangement is interesting as the rear propellers are hinged to rotate upwards 10° on take-off to clear spray. Two Do 26's were shot down by Hurricanes of 46 Sqn on 28 May 1940 during the Norwegian campaign.

Panzerknacker
07-10-2007, 07:20 PM
Hmmmm..thanks but the gun definately is not a MG 151/20, this cannon have a different muzzle and the barrel was shorter.

Must be some kind of experimental weapon, I saw a MG 204, but no a 404.

Tony Williams
07-11-2007, 05:05 AM
There are two different guns in those photos.

The top one is I think the Rheinmetall-Borsig MG 204.

The lower one is the Hispano-Suiza HS 404.

The seaplane arm of the Luftwaffe was always last in the queue for equipment and I know that they made limited use of both of these guns until they could replace them with MG 151/20.

Panzerknacker
07-11-2007, 10:19 AM
Thanks.

the MG 204 was 20x105 mm right ?

Tony Williams
07-11-2007, 11:24 AM
the MG 204 was 20x105 mm right ?

That's right. In the pic below (from the Ammunition Photo Gallery on my website) the 20x105 is the MG 204, the 20x82 the MG 151/20 and the 20x110 the HS 404.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/20mm1.jpg

Panzerknacker
07-13-2007, 10:31 AM
It used the belted or the nonbelted ammo ?

Tony Williams
07-13-2007, 02:07 PM
Non-belted - the belted ammo was used in the Lb 204 which preceded the MG 204 (and also in the Solothurn S18-100 series anti-tank rifles).

Panzerknacker
07-13-2007, 06:56 PM
Thank again for your reply, too bad that I dont have any more close picture of the MG 204, is very rare gun.

Tham
07-17-2007, 10:38 AM
I remember reading one of Adolf Galland's
missions. As he was climbing with his wingman in
their Me 262 in an interception attack against a
B-17, he told him to ignore the tail gunner's fire at
1,000 yards. I think he then fired a one-second
burst from his MK108s at 400 or 500 yards.

He saw four or five blasts around the airframe
and wings, and the B-17 went down immediately.

Tham
07-19-2007, 06:43 AM
The MG151/20 has a reputation of being a powerful cannon, and Denel's Rooivalk's XC-F2
is based on it.

However, the cartridge is quite short and about the same as the MG-FF, 82 mm compared to the Hispano's 110. Thus the amount of propellant could not have been much more than the MG-FF. How did it manage to achieve the higher muzzle velocity then - the longer barrel ?

Its muzzle velocity of 750 m/sec still fell short of the Hispano Mk 2's 880 m/sec, however. What accounted for its reputed hard-hitting power then ? Was it the higher destructive capacity of its mine shell - 17 grams of HE versus only 6 grams in the Hispano ?

Tony Williams
07-19-2007, 09:22 AM
The cartridge case of the MG 151/20 held more propellant because it was wider. The M-Geschoss' HE capacity was less than double the Hispano's, which held about 10-11g, but it was enough to make it more destructive in certain circumstances.

Panzerknacker
07-19-2007, 08:09 PM
Experimental weapons, Recoiless cannons:

Gerät 104 Münchhausen.

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/9521/g104hv8.jpg

With the objective to destroy the naval supremacy dsiplayed by the Royal Navy compared with the Kriegsmarine at the beginning of of the war a massive cannon was developed in 1939-40 with the target of attacking british battleships and other strongly armored objectives.
The "element 104" was a weapon with an impressive caliber of 356 mm, designed to attack the ships with an armor piercing explosive war head.

Obviously the enormous recoil forces of a conventional gun of that caliber made it inadequate for its aeronautical use. For that reason it use the principle of the recoilless weapons, in this case allowing to of escape to gases of the firing by behind and that as well dragged capsula of propellant with a counterbalance, this balanced the two forces annulling the recoil.

The barrel:

The tube was made of chromium nickel molybdenum steel, it had a right hand twist. A belt for reinforcement was located in the zone where the propellant was deflagrated. The overall length was more than 10 meters.

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/7595/indexek7.jpg

(drawing from:'German Aircraft Guns: WWI - WWII', Edward J. Hoffschmidt, WE Inc. 1969)

The ammunition of 356 mm:

The projectile of 35,56 cm was an armor-piercing shot of chromium steel with an explosive charge of TNT in the base and slowed down fuze of impact to allow him to explode within the ship once obtained the penetration. The driving band of the projectile was pre-engraved and it match the grooves of the barrel. This diminished the amount stress of the tube in the firing and therefore allowed a tube of thinner walls but of smaller weight. In order to introduce the ammunition two halves of the G-104 were unscrewed. The weight of the projectile was of 700 kg and the initial speed about 320 meters per second. In order to prove if the weapon were really recoiless it was tested ffrst on a car over of narrow railroad.


The results were satisfactory (in some ocation the barrel moves slightly forwards after shot) The next stage was the probes in a fake aircraft body.

In tests with false nose and tail of Do-17, notice the ammunition load of 356mm down completes with propellant and counterbalance to the left.

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/1396/g104xw3.jpg

After shooting the gases slightly damaged the covering of fuselage in spite of the gas baffle plates located in each end. Nevertheless this problem was not serious and the weapon and the test continues until 1941 even was teorically proposed its use in the Ju-88, and He-177.

Panzerknacker
07-20-2007, 09:14 AM
Two more images of the Gerät 104.

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/4933/g1043hx6.jpg

Probably the development of this anti-ship weapon was dropped in favor of the guided weapons like the Hs 293 and Ruhrstal FX 1400.

Panzerknacker
08-16-2007, 08:50 PM
This is really weird, experiemntal mounting for BK 3,7 in a Ju-288 nose. :shock:

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k190/Mike_Fiz/JU388_bk37.jpg


http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k190/Mike_Fiz/JU388_bk37_2.jpg

No idea how it was loaded, manually I guess.

Panzerknacker
08-28-2007, 11:56 PM
280 mm recoiless cannon for JU-288:

This projekt is similar to the Gerät 104, but it use a smaller ( if a 28cm shell is small) caliber with a double back gasses derivation.
This derivation system allowed the gun to by embeded in the Ju-288 fuselage and gave it better aerodinamics characteristics.
One of his most remarcable characteristics is that it seems to lack the counterweight.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/5189/ju288cannone261sk1.jpg


Muzzle speed: 560 m/s.

Projectile type: APHE

Projectile weight; 400 Kg

Armor penetration (estimated): 200 mm Face hardened plate ( shot from an angle of 32º dive)

No more data available, it remains as proyect only.

Tony Williams
08-29-2007, 03:31 AM
How is the exhaust gas meant to escape from that? The blast at the back end of an RCL is ferocious, and in this drawing appears to be directed into the rear fuselage...

Panzerknacker
08-29-2007, 12:38 PM
It escaped passing by two nozzles, one in the right fuselage and other in the left.

However my opinion is that probably the blast would damage the lower duraluminiun skin in the wingroots, and yes... it is a little crazy.:rolleyes:

Panzerknacker
08-31-2007, 10:03 AM
SG 113 "Förstersonde " recoiless 77 mm gun.

"Sonder Gerät", special material Nº 113 was a development of Herman Göring Werke of Brunswick ( a Reinmethall-Borsig subsidiary) in response of a RLM directive looking for a improved accuracy cannon devoted for ground attack only.

The SG 113 was basicly a single shot gun with a 77mm caliber tube loaded with a saboted 45mm steel core ap ammo, in the back of the cartrigde there was a counterweight wich was discarded and proyected backwards (or upwards depending upon the guns placemenent) to equilibrate the recoil forces.

http://i16.tinypic.com/6h51ksz.jpg

Each tube had a lenght of 1600mm and weight (loaded) 67 kilograms.
Using the experience of Dr. Hackemann and Dr. Schwetzke employees of the LFA firm , HGw developed an electromagnetically triggered mechanism equipment. This mechanism responded to the electrostatic field surrounding the tank.


This cannon was first emplaced in 3 Hs-129B-0 aircrafts for testing in mid-1944.
The instalation in the Hs-129 comprised six tubes embeded in the mid fuselage, the muzzles had a 10º angle backwards. Its battery was trigerred by a "T" shaped sensor antenna in the nose of the Henschel.

Hs-129B-0 WrkN 0016
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/9449/sg113ft9.jpg


This aircrafts were used intensively in shooting test in the Rechlin Lutwaffe facilities in late 1944.

Upper view, 6 x SG-113 guns.

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/2285/sg113arribapm7.jpg

Panzerknacker
09-06-2007, 09:25 PM
Two images of the Rechlin test with the SG 113.

Missed shot on T-34.

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/739/erradobd8.jpg


Hit on top armor.

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/585/impactoyu5.jpg

Panzerknacker
09-07-2007, 08:32 PM
SG 113 in FW-190F:

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/2268/sg1132fi4.jpg

Into the FW 190 twin tubes were built in each case on the right of and left by the trunk into the surfaces. The effect of the weapon was considerable, depending upon hit angle could it one 40 mm strong armoring with 60° and 50 mm with 75° impact angle smoothly pierce and/or strongly distort and promised thus a good success with the fight of armored targets.

http://www.luftwaffe39-45.historia.nom.br/aero/sg113.jpg

To monitoring of the hit results was done via one parallel to the weapon inserted Robot camera with the shot was at the same time released.

http://img107.echo.cx/img107/5251/fw190r20sz.jpg

Both tubes were installed into a common lining stood out in each case 700mm above and down from the bearing area of the L.G. 190. For forced down landings the SG 113 barrel could be ejected by means of small explosive charges by a simple mechanism below 300 km/h.

Flying path of aproach to target with the SG 113, note the sensors one below each wing.

http://img58.echo.cx/img58/8976/fw22od.jpg

Is not know if the SG 113 was actually used in combat.

Panzerknacker
09-08-2007, 11:16 AM
I forgot to mention that in the Hs-129 the six tubes could be fired individually of a full burst of the entire SG 113 barrels.

Panzerknacker
09-11-2007, 10:17 PM
Reinhmetall SG 116 'Zellendusche'

Sonder Gerät 116 'Zellendusche' ( cell shower) was a recoiless 30mm cannon.This equipment was developed, in order to make attacks possible on hostile bomber formations by flying underneath.

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/1163/zellenhp6.jpg

The triggering device was operated by means a "photoelectric cell feeler", a plant working according to kind of the exposure meter, which was released only directly during the target approach before flying underneath the opponent.

Sensor devices were manufactured by the company Opta-Radio. The weapon was built with Rheinmetall Borsig. The SG 116 was built into three different arrangements: four pieces in rhombic form in the trunk, six pieces in double triangle form or 3 pieces in line in the trunk sidewall with a Spreitzung of 2 degrees.The last model of the SG 116 was emplaced in the FW-190. Several testing took place with whe FW-190, He-117 even the lesser Fw 58.

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/2917/dibujoxr0.jpg

Lenght of individual barrel: 1,65 m
Muzzle speed. 825 m/s.

genkideskan
09-25-2007, 03:49 PM
Hello,

the Förster company still exist today and is still using the metal detecting technic to produce professional metal detectors. Funny that our EOD used that war inventory to find dud bombs and ammo - from wars end until today.

Here is an experimental projectile missing the sabbots from the SG 113. Found some years ago at the Luftwaffen proofing ground Rechlin.

Panzerknacker
09-25-2007, 06:28 PM
Is that a 30mm ?

genkideskan
09-26-2007, 04:25 PM
No these projectile is about 37mm in diameter - a trial with 75 mm sabots.

Panzerknacker
09-27-2007, 06:40 PM
Nice they look very much alike the projectiles used in the SG 500 jagdfaust gun.


http://www.xs4all.nl/~robdebie/me163/images/large/weapon01a.gif

Panzerknacker
10-01-2007, 08:59 PM
Dusenkanone Duka 88.

http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/366/dukado7.jpg

Originally a Kriegsmarine projekt in 75mm the duka 88 was designed as a electric motor actuated, drum magazine type cannon.


The 88 mm tube was feed by a rotating 10 shot magazine, the electric motor rotate the drum 36 degrees after every shot presenting the fresh cartrigde in front the chamber , loading it and closing the breech. The heavy recoil was alleviated in part by means of two nozzles venting the gasses backwards, one in the top and other in lower fuselage.

Data: Caliber of 88 mm, cadence 10 shot/min, mass ~1000 kg and length 4705 mm

cuongnet
10-02-2007, 08:34 AM
oh, good job!

Panzerknacker
10-02-2007, 06:22 PM
Thanks man, nice to see that somebody actually read this topic.

genkideskan
10-09-2007, 01:48 PM
This is annother puzzling aircraft gun - using a MG 151 15mm barrel and a cartridge ( app. 75mm) that holds 7 projectiles later 9 projectiles of 15mm caliber.
These are of HE/INC type and obviously from the MG 151 ammo, too.
The barrel was closed by a breech screw that chambers the cartridge of 75mm caliber.
When fired the central bullet was driven through the barrel and the gas pressure in the cartridge pressed annother projectile in the central position which was fired instantly.
That was made by a second small gas port behind the projo columne.
To fight the bombers a projectile burst was nessessary and couldt provide with 5 of these barrels under each wing. 10 barrels firing 9 projos ea. in 11/1000 second. That was a burst impossible to produced with normal belt feed weapons- and this HF 15 weapon was very light compared to an machine cannon. Sonderwaffe HF 15 means Special purpose weapon - HF (hohe Feuerfolge) very high cadence - 15 is the 15mm caliber.
These weapon needs an special powder positioning to create a saw teath like powder pressure. The first projo reach 1000m/s and the last about 800 m/s muzzle velocity. The weapon was fully developed and a small number where produced. The hole project was very secret and nothing is known about combat use. Even today the sources are scarce.
Here is an english and an russian document of the ammo.

Tony Williams
10-09-2007, 03:16 PM
I recall reading that the USA was interested in the HF 15 after the war and even made some ammunition for it to continue testing.

Panzerknacker
10-09-2007, 06:55 PM
Nice drawing GK, crazy, I never read something about like that in the past :shock:

genkideskan
10-10-2007, 08:45 AM
It is funny to see that the USA only offeres simplified or scetch like drawings.
The russians forget to mentioned that the 15mm projo had two driving bands- may be they captured early stages of the ammo and gun.
The russian drawing show the new air columne fuze. These fuze need no mechanical parts- the compressed air in the central hole fired the detonator.
I add an scetch of the weapons under the wing of a FW 190 - these 5 barrels weight about 100 kg.
To that Ive found a HASAG drawing showing more details from September 1944. Note the two driving bands, the positioning of the propellant and the elctrical primer screw.

Panzerknacker
10-10-2007, 08:30 PM
That would gave a impressive but short burst :)


Duka 88 (II)

Now I am posting the aditional images refering to the Duka 88 gun, again thanks to GK for this beautiful drawings.

http://i22.tinypic.com/2a6pls4.jpg


The semi-self combustible cartrigde.

http://i21.tinypic.com/2cr372c.jpg


Images of the motorizated loading mechanism and gas escape nozzles.

Panzerknacker
11-23-2007, 09:18 AM
Mauser MG 213, revolver gun.

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/6752/mg213hj0.jpg

In late 1942 the german RLM ( Reichs air ministry) came out with a very surprising requeriment.
This was one for a 20 mm gun with a rate of fire of 1000 rpm, and with a muzzle speed no less than 1000 meters per second.

This was nearly a shock for the german designers, although there was guns capable to reach and surpass the 1000 rpm rof those were small calibre machineguns and the cannons with high muzzle velocity like the 2 cm Flak 30/38 were completely unable to reach the requested rate of fire.

The requeriment was deliver to Krieghoff and Mauser. HASAG was in charge to develop the ammunition.
Krieghoff designed a experimental weapon using the gas operation, that was MG 301.

Mauser in the other hand understood that the standar gas or recoil systems were not useful in this very high rate of fire weapon, and they used the revolver gun instead.

The revolver gun was not actually a new idea, there was experiments with this type of mechanism since the XVIII century, however the Mauser technicians were the first to achieve a superb aircraft weapon.

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/8031/17067220ut8.jpg



http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/1880/71822229bj3.jpg


http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/6079/mg213dn7.jpg

tankgeezer
11-23-2007, 01:23 PM
Was there any mention of barrel life? looks like it could go through them fairly rapidly.

Tony Williams
11-23-2007, 07:18 PM
Was there any mention of barrel life? looks like it could go through them fairly rapidly.
Yes, it would have done. But that wasn't a major concern with aircraft guns, partly because if the planes got back to base they could easily be given new barrels, and if they didn't, well...

Panzerknacker
11-23-2007, 08:20 PM
I suppose it also depends on the lenght of the burst used by the pilot, needless to say the MG 213 did not saw service in ww2 because it arrived too late for the conflict.

http://www.luft46.com/bv/215w-4.gif

Panzerknacker
11-27-2007, 09:02 PM
Two nice illustrations of how the revolver gun works:http://www.warbirds.jp/truth/s_rgun.htm

snebold
04-01-2008, 09:09 AM
In post #74 here it is stated that the underbelly tests of the syncronized MK103 on the FW190 was a failure.
Can you elaborate on that, why did it fail?
I´ve long wondered why they didn´t do just that, but at least, they tried then...

Tony Williams
04-01-2008, 10:22 AM
In post #74 here it is stated that the underbelly tests of the syncronized MK103 on the FW190 was a failure.
Can you elaborate on that, why did it fail?


I don't know, but I suspect erratic propellant burn. A synchronised gun required very precise timing of each shot to work: the instant of the projectile passing through the propeller disc had to be guaranteed to within a tiny fraction of a second to ensure that it didn't hit a blade. The MK 103 used a very big 30x184B cartridge case containing a lot of propellant; I suspect that the time this took to burn varied too much for reliable synchronisation.

And while a propeller blade could tolerate the odd bullet hole through it, a 30mm shell would destroy it.

Panzerknacker
04-01-2008, 01:21 PM
In post #74 here it is stated that the underbelly tests of the syncronized MK103 on the FW190 was a failure.
Can you elaborate on that, why did it fail?



I think Tony pretty much explained it, the so called "hang fires" could disrupt the sinchronizer interruption and destroy the propellers. The rate of fire in the MK-103 varied continuosly between 360-420 rpm, that is 6 or 7 shots per second.

snebold
04-02-2008, 02:32 PM
Thanks both of you:D

Perhaps you can tell me if there wasn´t some trouble involved with the quite different muzzle velocities of the different ammu types for the same gun. They don´t seem to present a ballistic match?
Or did they use only one ammu type at a time?

More, more, more on the MG213/20, MG213/30 please :twisted:

Tony Williams
04-02-2008, 03:47 PM
I think that they would have had to "tune" the synchro system for a particular ammo loading

genkideskan
04-02-2008, 04:53 PM
Here is a more or less known german site. But the manuals are somewhat difficult to find. Interesting manuals about weapons, engines, instument data sheets. F.e. the remote controlled guns of the He 177 ect .

http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/archiv/Dokumente/web/new%20site/frames2/Dokumente.htm

check it out - for Heinkel click an "H"

Panzerknacker
04-09-2008, 07:59 PM
55 mm MK 112.

Rheinmetall Borsig design for a heavy fast firing cannon, it was more or less an up-scaled variant of the successful 30 mm MK 108. The requeriment of 1944 included the need of a cheap construction and not to used a lot of high grade steel, in this way contruction involved several parts of stamped and welded metal.

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/5038/mk1122lw2.gif

The calibre was 55 x 175 mm, rate of fire-300-350 rpm, the projectiles used were minengranate exclusively.

Panzerknacker
04-12-2008, 08:47 PM
Just one more image of the MK-112 55 mm weapon. the muzzle velocity was 530-550 m/s.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/309/img0007uy1.jpg

Tony Williams
04-12-2008, 10:59 PM
You will note that the shape of the cartridges shown in the two drawings is very different...the first one is about right, the second one wrong.

genkideskan
04-13-2008, 01:59 PM
The trials with captured aircraft wings and parts show that about 450gramms of explosive is nessessary to seriously destroy a bomber. That resulted in a caliber of 5,5cm. They made 17 light guns, but the test firing showed that the belt links are too fragile. There are a light 300 kg and a heavy version (max. 700kg and V° 1000 m/sek) and different ammunition.
Here is the MK108 type rebated case ammo for the light version. ( 600 m/sek a rate of fire of 350 rds/sek was reached)

Panzerknacker
04-14-2008, 08:23 AM
Sehr Gut, thanks for the 55x175mm patrone pictures Lothar.

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/9681/mk112du6.jpg



You will note that the shape of the cartridges shown in the two drawings is very different...the first one is about right, the second one wrong.


Yup, that is a cheap squematic drawing, interestingly enough the competition of MK-108, the Mauser Mk 212 did use a bottlenecked case cartrigde.


There are a light 300 kg and a heavy version (max. 700kg and V° 1000 m/sek) and different ammunition.


Probably you are talking about the MK-114 wich used the 55 mm "Gerät 58" AAA cartrigde.

Panzerknacker
05-14-2008, 08:19 PM
Rheinmetall MK-115 .

I know this was a recoil reduced full automatic high velocity 55 mm calibre gun. Unfortunately no more data, any pictures or squematic would be preciated.

Tony Williams
05-14-2008, 09:04 PM
The MK 115 was a recoilless autoloading gun firing combustible-case ammo. It therefore combined two technologies, neither of which has reached production status in an automatic cannon to this day (despite many atttempts). That should give you some idea of its feasibility :roll:

Panzerknacker
05-15-2008, 07:55 PM
Combustible case ? hmm, interesting that data is one I didnt know, the design sounds even more complicated than I tough but of course in this level that matter does not surprize me.

The only recoiless full auto gun I know is the RMK 30.

http://www.army-technology.com/contractor_images/mauser/mauser2.jpg

Tony Williams
05-15-2008, 11:17 PM
The only recoiless full auto gun I know is the RMK 30.
The were some Russian self-loading RCLs in the 1930s, but they didn't have combustible cases and saw little use. The RMK 30 is AFAIK the only auto cannon to have been made which combines RCL with combustible case. However, that is not in service and may never be.

Panzerknacker
05-17-2008, 11:55 PM
I think I read something about put it in the Eurocopter Tiger...

Here I found a squematic of the MK 115.

http://i29.tinypic.com/1eat89.jpg

Tony Williams
05-18-2008, 12:10 AM
I think I read something about put it in the Eurocopter Tiger...
They were talking about that at one time, but there are no current plans to do so.

Panzerknacker
05-18-2008, 10:21 PM
Understood. :cool:

Panzerknacker
05-19-2008, 10:00 PM
At last I can put this image, I had saw this in WW2aircraft.net but given the troubles with that website I cannot do before.

In this squematic in better apreaciated the intrincated design of the Rheinmetall Borsig MK 115 55mm gun.


http://i32.tinypic.com/4sz3nl.jpg

snebold
05-23-2008, 01:26 PM
Regarding the MK112:


The trials with captured aircraft wings and parts show that about 450gramms of explosive is nessessary to seriously destroy a bomber. That resulted in a caliber of 5,5cm. They made 17 light guns, but the test firing showed that the belt links are too fragile. There are a light 300 kg and a heavy version (max. 700kg and V° 1000 m/sek) and different ammunition.
Here is the MK108 type rebated case ammo for the light version. ( 600 m/sek a rate of fire of 350 rds/sek was reached)

Any of the heavy version built?

What was the "secret" behind the high rate of fire (350rpm).
For comparison modern naval weapons of 40mm and 57mm caliber fire "only" 330 and 220rpm respectively (Bofors).

Tony Williams
05-23-2008, 07:15 PM
Regarding the MK112:

What was the "secret" behind the high rate of fire (350rpm).
For comparison modern naval weapons of 40mm and 57mm caliber fire "only" 330 and 220rpm respectively (Bofors).

The small, low-energy cartridge. The Bofors guns fire big, high-velocity rounds, and it takes the action some time to move back the required distance then move forward again.

Panzerknacker
05-23-2008, 07:30 PM
And the short 175 mm ( short in relation with the bore that is) case lenght also helps, but that is also related with low-energy cartridge thing mentioned by Tony.

As comparison the bofors 40 mm have 311 and 364 mm cases ( 40/60 and late 40/70 guns)

Panzerknacker
05-27-2008, 07:32 PM
so I hijack that one with a hope-so on topic Q.



No, no no, hijack topics is no good, this is for luftwaffe armament only.

Panzerknacker
06-09-2008, 08:00 PM
FW Tank Ta-152 B projected armament:

Squematics showing the heavy armament layout proposed for the high altitude fighter TA-152 ausf B.


http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/350/ta152abir6.jpg

5 x 20 mm Mausers plus one MK-103 and two MK-108 30 mm, posibility of two more cannons with field conversion, in some sources the wingroots guns are Mauser MG 213 but I am not sure if those revolver-guns could be synchronizated.

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/6323/ta152totalxg4.jpg

Churchill
06-09-2008, 08:22 PM
That looks like an old WWI fighter, except with more guns and it being a monoplane and not a biplane.

mark5panther
12-02-2008, 08:57 PM
Wow. These are great pictures you've posted. I've always loved 'German-Engineering' of weapon systems from WWII.

Panzerknacker
12-03-2008, 07:16 AM
Thank you, thank you, it has been a long work to more or less complete the list of Luftwaffe guns.

http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww2/ju87g/ju87g-2.jpg

Uyraell
03-16-2009, 09:05 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZZGaEEi8Ek&NR=1

The above is from youtube, allegedly a 30mm Mk108 testfired against the wing of a grounded Spitfire MKII.

Thought it might be of interest to you.

Regards, Uyraell.

Uyraell
03-16-2009, 10:56 AM
Me-410 in combat with BK 5:

http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/368/me410a111s7ir.jpg

Browsing the page http://www.luftarchiv.de I ve found some interesting information of the use of this weapon in the me-410A-1/U4.



My german is poor, but the thing that I can understand here is that a heavy Fighter group was equipped with 53 Messers 410A-1/u4.

In the time period between 22 th february and 11 th april those carried out 6 separate missions and destroyed...129 B-17 Flying Fortress and 9 B-24 Liberators :shock:, with only nine own losses ( Me-410 destroyed by bombers or escort fighters)
9 Fortress were destroyed with shots at 800 meters in 9th april and 11th april.

The number seems high to me but if true is pretty amazing.

Me-410 pull after a pass over B-24 of 388 BG.

http://i18.tinypic.com/4780zmx.jpg


Ltn Fröz aircraft in II/ZG 26, the killmarks belong to 3 B-17s shot down in april 1944 (extracted from Me-210/410 in action/Squadron Signal)

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/1038/bk58tl.jpg
I think "Stueck" means attacks upon, not necessarily kills of, B17s.

Regards, Uyraell.

Uyraell
03-16-2009, 11:28 AM
Hmmmm..thanks but the gun definately is not a MG 151/20, this cannon have a different muzzle and the barrel was shorter.

Must be some kind of experimental weapon, I saw a MG 204, but no a 404.
If memory serves, the MG404 (being the German assigned designation) is in fact a French weapon impressed into Luftwaffe use, in Sea Reconnaiscance Wings.

From memory, it was taken from manufactured stocks that had been intended for fitting in the various turret and tunnel gun/ventral turret installations of the S.E 100 Heavy Fighter.

Source: William Green , "Warplanes of the Second World War, Fighters, Volume One".

Regards, Uyraell.

Panzerknacker
03-19-2009, 07:59 PM
Yes, I tought that it was a german design but in the end was the trusty Hispano gun. Well, not so trusty, it jammed a lot in the early cannon armed Spitfires.

Aditional images of Rheinmetall Borsig MK 103 30mm gun.

http://i39.tinypic.com/502vyo.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/28chp3p.jpg

Uyraell
03-21-2009, 04:19 PM
Yes PK, you are correct. Though to be fair, the RAF armourers were at that point unfamiliar with the weapon.
Once they gained experience, the amount of jams reduced, as I understand it.
Certainly in the Mediterranean theater the Hispano-derived cannons performed quite well, which has always surprised me, in as much as that theater was where it could be expected that performance issues would be of the greatest number.

Regards, Uyraell.

Tony Williams
03-22-2009, 04:16 AM
Yes PK, you are correct. Though to be fair, the RAF armourers were at that point unfamiliar with the weapon.
Once they gained experience, the amount of jams reduced, as I understand it.

In 1944 the RAF Hispanos had an average stoppage rate of once in every 1,500 rounds, compared with once in about 4,500 rounds for the .50 Browning.

Panzerknacker
03-23-2009, 06:40 PM
In 1944 the RAF Hispanos had an average stoppage rate of once in every 1,500 rounds, compared with once in about 4,500 rounds for the .50 Browning


Wich is not good, and that was in 1944, after almost 4 years working in clear the "bugs" in the Birgkit gun. Unfortunately I havent see a record of the French Air force to compare.

http://i39.tinypic.com/11m46eg.jpg

Uyraell
03-23-2009, 08:22 PM
In 1944 the RAF Hispanos had an average stoppage rate of once in every 1,500 rounds, compared with once in about 4,500 rounds for the .50 Browning.
Tony, Thank you for the figures. :)
My reference collection was broken up some years ago. :(
So, I'm glad to see something to confirm my memories.

Kind Regards, Uyraell.

Tony Williams
03-23-2009, 11:04 PM
Wich is not good, and that was in 1944, after almost 4 years working in clear the "bugs" in the Birgkit gun. Unfortunately I havent see a record of the French Air force to compare.

The mounting had a lot to do with it. The Hispano was designed to be bolted to a rigid engine block, and it did not take at all kindly to being installed within more flexible wings. The wing installation on each new type of fighter had to be carefully fine-tuned. Fuselage-mounted guns were less bother, I believe.

This also affected the Browning to some extent: fixed guns were more reliable than flexibly-mounted ones.

Panzerknacker
03-24-2009, 07:39 PM
Agreed, aparently in the thin wing of the Spitfire layed some of the troubles, the Typhoons gun installation seems to had a lesser rate of jamming.

gaucho1
03-28-2009, 05:41 PM
Gentlemen

Thank you for a very interesting thread.
I enjoy the informed postings and pictures.
One thing I find hard to locate are terminal results of various
weapons on armor and other targets.
This thread has some outstanding pictures of these effects.
Those germans are pretty clever.

:cool:

Panzerknacker
03-29-2009, 09:55 PM
Thank you for a very interesting thread.
I enjoy the informed postings and pictures.
One thing I find hard to locate are terminal results of various
weapons on armor and other targets.
This thread has some outstanding pictures of these effects.



You re welcome, you re welcome, it wasnt easy to emsemble all the info but it worth the effort. :cool:

Panzerknacker
10-29-2009, 07:31 PM
Cleaning up the barrel of MG 151/20. The knurled section is for easier handling when extracting it, it was a quick change one obviously.

http://i34.tinypic.com/2a8f21f.jpg

Panzerknacker
11-04-2009, 09:32 AM
Nice views the rear MG 151/20 turret, He-177.

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/3720/57317573.jpg


http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/4407/18877250.jpg

VonWeyer
11-05-2009, 01:13 AM
Very nice pics Panzerknacker.

Panzerknacker
11-05-2009, 06:06 PM
Thanks, here is another.

Filling up 60 round magazines for the Ikaria Werke MG-FF 20mm gun. ( airfield in the France Campaign, 1940)

http://i35.tinypic.com/fawuht.jpg

http://i37.tinypic.com/2qi2ov4.jpg


http://i33.tinypic.com/2uqnalt.jpg

Comrade Claus
11-17-2009, 07:34 PM
Are those 20mm rounds in paper sleeves? Btw, does anyone know if there are any videos of luftwaffe guns being fired online? I don't mean guncamera shots, but like ground tests.

Panzerknacker
11-18-2009, 09:28 AM
Cardboard slevees actually.

My dear Comrade: in my extensive collection and research in the german newsreel Deutsche Wochenschau as well in other non-public instructional Lehrfilm I ve found little of the materiel you want.

Most you can see inboard footage of machineguns or like MG 15, MG 81, MG FF being fired by a bomber gunner mostly against ground targets.

The most close to your request is some footage of the MG 151 firing from the wing of Junkers Ju-87D-5 in a woche of 1944, and the Ju-87G of Rudel being filmed using its guns from a chase plane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRUj6RiCj4w

So far I ve found no film of any Luftwaffe weapon being tested in the ground.

tankgeezer
11-18-2009, 10:41 PM
Here is a pic of part of my ammo stash showing the sleeves in which they were packed This is 20x138B ammo, as used in German AA guns (and AT rifles)

Panzerknacker
11-19-2009, 05:35 PM
Must be a hard work to emsemble all the magazines when you got to extract every single round from its package, but I guess with fused ammo there was no much options, you need to protect it from the shocks of the travel to the front.

tankgeezer
11-19-2009, 06:18 PM
The tubes were just to prevent scratching, denting, etc. the outer crates were the real protection, whether wood, or metal. Sometimes the ammo was placed inside a sealed tin, then inside a wooden crate. Fuzes were not much trouble, being fairly simple in that size.(at the time) Physical protection of the fuze was more the thought than preventing premature functioning.
It was (in the American services anyway,) common practice to assemble belts, and magazines from loose ammo sent in bulk containers. I'd guess it was a time consuming job, but one that was really important to weed out substandard rounds. also the loads were determined by the work to be done, all A.P., all explosive, trace or no trace, even accounting for the different types of these munitions.

Panzerknacker
11-30-2009, 07:37 PM
Thanks for the info TankG.

A photo for bullet manics:

Reloading a Me-106G-6 in Russland 1943. Note the grey Pzg übung projectiles in the ammo belft for the MG 151/20, that confirms the "exercice" ammunition was indeed used in combat missions.

http://www.worldwar.it/sito/images/munizioni/20mm/Progetto89.jpg
http://www.worldwar.it/sito/images/munizioni/20mm/Progetto90.jpg

Panzerknacker
02-16-2010, 05:56 PM
RZ 65:

1943 experimental air-to-air spin stabilized rocket, tested in special underwing pods on BF-109F.

http://i45.tinypic.com/awz0hk.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/w1uxld.jpg

Panzerknacker
08-10-2010, 11:32 AM
Mauser MK 214 ( Amendment )

Some corrections on my earlier post about this maschinenkanone.

-The feed was by means of a non-desintegrating metallic belt.

-Correct rate of fire was 160 rpm

-Electro-pneumatic feeding used by the BK 5 was completely discarded in this massive gun. The cartrigdes were feed by sliding/rotating cams working with the gun recoil.

Some more photos:

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/8994/220500.jpg (http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/8994/220500.jpg)


http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/4840/820500.jpg

Ammunition belt:

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/534/1520500.jpg

leccy
08-10-2010, 05:34 PM
Panzerknacker your post


Mauser MK 214 ( Amendment )

Some corrections on my earlier post about this maschinenkanone.

-The feed was by means of a non-desintegrating metallic belt.


But the ammunition belt shown is a disintergrating link belt

Panzerknacker
08-10-2010, 11:01 PM
Hmm, is possible. Did I mistranslate the german source ?

However the belt sems disasembled for the photo, that doesnt mean the mechanism inside the MK 214 would do the same. In any case the used belt was keep in the Me-262 nose and not ejected.

Two more photos.

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/3244/94476885.jpg

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/5000/82815634.jpg

Uyraell
08-11-2010, 10:47 PM
Hmm, is possible. Did I mistranslate the german source ?

However the belt sems disasembled for the photo, that doesnt mean the mechanism inside the MK 214 would do the same. In any case the used belt was keep in the Me-262 nose and not ejected.

Two more photos.

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/3244/94476885.jpg

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/5000/82815634.jpg

Panzerknacker and Leccy, my friends, we may be talking of two different terminologies as regards the belt carrying the shells.
There are two terms often erroneously used interchangably, that should not be employed that way.
"Disposable link" and "Disintegrating link".

Disposable link literally means the belt disintegrates and the ejected shellcase takes with it the link portion of the belt it fed-through on.

Disintegrating link literally means the belt disintegrates, the shellcase is ejected, but the link, now "loose" is retained in a container for later re-use in a replacement belt.

In the decades since Ww2 the two above terms have come to be employed interchangably, where in fact they should not be.

I'm thinking that this explains the element of confusion with regard to the belt /beltlinks in question.

Kind and Respectful Regards, my friends Panzerknacker and Leccy, Uyraell.

Panzerknacker
08-12-2010, 05:28 PM
Maybe the gun had both characteristicas. Is my opinion taht the links remained toghether after passing trough teh chamber, but I could be wrong , there is no a lot of information about thsi weapon because only 2 or 3 were made.

leccy
08-12-2010, 06:38 PM
I found some info but I could not understand the mechanism properly, apart from the rounds were stripped from the belt and ejected after use, I could not work out if the cases and links were retained or dumped.

A seemingly minor point now that has had me thinking, normally the links were disposed of along with the cartridge cases, maybe due to Germanys declining industrial and resource base they were intending to bring them back for re-use.

Uyraell
08-13-2010, 04:29 PM
I found some info but I could not understand the mechanism properly, apart from the rounds were stripped from the belt and ejected after use, I could not work out if the cases and links were retained or dumped.

A seemingly minor point now that has had me thinking, normally the links were disposed of along with the cartridge cases, maybe due to Germanys declining industrial and resource base they were intending to bring them back for re-use.

I'd be thinking long and hard to come up with a source to back me, but I seem to recall that by about September of 1943 the Germans had begun to adopt a policy of retaining the links themselves, but ejecting the empty cartridge cases.
I have a half-formed memory of a Speer Directive being issued, that emphasised reduction of machining time in manufacture of various items, and which became the basis for the adoption of the policy of retaining the beltlinks.

Pretty much by early 1944 the Germans were, again as result of a Speer Directive, gradually introducing thin-walled steel cartridges into service in a surprisingly large number of calibres, even if only in prototype form.
Modern times have tended to credit the Russians in particular with steel-walled shells, but it was, if memory serves correctly, the Germans who first made large-scale use of shells and cartidges manufactured from steel.
Which is where the disintegrating links and retaining the empty links after firing enters the picture.

For comparative purposes regarding Germany's economic situation, it should be recalled, that by mid 1943, Me.109's and FW 190's were going into combat with wooden tails and tailfins, in order to minimise losses of various metals used in the aircraft industry. Similarly, certain vehicles were leaving production lines with wooden seating where they had originally been designed with steelframe seating. All this, to economise on the usage of metals, which Germany was all-too-rapidly running out of.
Again, germane to the beltlinks question.

Kind and Respectful Regards my friends, Uyraell.

Panzerknacker
08-15-2010, 05:34 PM
I dont thinkw the links were discarded at all, not only for economy reaos but also because eject links of that size from a jet fighter is quite complicated. The link could be cought by the airflow and smashed against the fuselage or other aircraft section. Very dangerous.

http://the.secret.birds.free.fr/messerschmitt/Me262A-1-U4_avec_MK214.jpg

There was also a variant MK 214B, of 55mm caliber, 55x450B actually, it was under construction at tha time of the "Untergang". It used the same cartrigde of the "Gerät 58" naval AAA gun.

Uyraell
08-16-2010, 12:39 AM
Agreed as regards ejecting the links: very unwise, and unnecessary.

The Me.262 variant shown in your post is just about my favourite.
Imagine one of these, with the jettisonable rocket booster pack HW 105-109 of the Me.262 C2.
Very good Interceptor would result, at comparatively little development cost.

Some sources claim two, some three, and some four of this version were constructed.
Often recorded is that when the aircraft was in firing trials against a ground target some 150 ft wide by 10 ft tall, this Me.262 variant scored 27 out of 30 hits: a very high success rate, that would be difficult to achieve even today.

The Americans retain one of these aircraft in storage at the Smithsonian (V 83, nicknamed "Wilma-Jeannie") but in all truth I no-longer recall what happened to the other 3 of this subtype.

Many many Thanks for this fine picture, PK my friend, Uyraell.

Panzerknacker
08-16-2010, 05:20 PM
Yea, 2 or 3 was all of that Subvariant, one of these was flown operationally in the JV 44 by the night fighter ace Willy Herget, Herget attacked bomber formations in early 1945 twice but luckily for the american aviators didnt score any hit.

Uyraell
08-17-2010, 02:56 AM
Yea, 2 or 3 was all of that Subvariant, one of these was flown operationally in the JV 44 by the night fighter ace Willy Herget, Herget attacked bomber formations in early 1945 twice but luckily for the american aviators didnt score any hit.

I'm very interested in JV 44, a relative of mine flew with them, though it was very late in my childhood before I was told who that relative was.
His book doesn't much reference the men he flew with at that stage, I think mainly because he did not want to create the impression he was in any way speaking for them, in the book.

As is often the case with any Me.262 variant, the entire history of the aircraft is threaded with ignorance on the part of the RLM and higher authorities, inept decisions, and lack of production resources to best develop and employ the aircraft, even with its' ongoing but increasingly minor flaws.

Herget would have been lauded had he scored against an American bomber or three, but that success would have then hindered the operational development of the other Me.262 variants as higher authority began to devote increased resources to the variant Herget employed. And the resources were not by that stage really there because they were steadily shrinking.
Which means the other variants would have suffered increasingly by lack of proper development.

It would be interesting to re-examine the engine issues, though that too has been done in other threads.

Armament issues are being very well examined in this thread, and I'm very much enjoying the discussion.
Better things could have been done, for example, with the RZ65 you showed some posts above.
More could have been done with the x4 missile.
The Bordkanon in the variant we discuss above could have been improved.

All these examples are of systems requiring improvements that were small, but relatively simple to achieve.
Usually, either lack of resource, or lack of time killed them, and where it wasn't that, ignorance and lack of foresight on the part of higher authorities doomed the weapon systems just as effectively.

((Post Script:
Panzerknacker my friend, if you have guessed the identity of my relative, please do not mention his name in open forum. I'm quite happy to discuss the matter in private message. I keep the matter rather private, as you can appreciate.))

Kind and Respectful Regards Panzerknacker my friend, Uyraell.

Panzerknacker
08-17-2010, 09:45 AM
Panzerknacker my friend, if you have guessed the identity of my relative, please do not mention his name in open forum. I'm quite happy to discuss the matter in private message. I keep the matter rather private, as you can appreciate

Hehe, no worry, I wont. The armament question is several times a forgotten part of teh aviation history. I like to do this amendments because god, fresh information come out every day ( thanks god)



Herget would have been lauded had he scored against an American bomber or three, but that success would have then hindered the operational development of the other Me.262 variants as higher authority began to devote increased resources to the variant Herget employed. And the resources were not by that stage really there because they were steadily shrinking.
Which means the other variants would have suffered increasingly by lack of proper development.



Is probably, but aniway it was so late in war, every german mistakes about the Me-262 was already made so I dont think that would made a lot of difference.

Uyraell
08-17-2010, 02:05 PM
Basically I agree with you my friend.

What's in my mind in saying as I did above about the variant Herget flew, is that it was, over-all one of the more successful ones, as far as I can tell, and certainly less of a technological stretch than some of the proposed alternative armament schemes, and in some ways a rational decision when German authorities were --- lacking ---in rationality.

And again, add the C2 variant booster pack for interceptions, and that looks very viable, very fast. Since the pack itself was bolt-on, blow-off, the only major change in the cockpit is the plumbing for the throttle and the wiring for the explosive bolts once the booster is empty. All completely technologically proven, and thus feasible.

But, overall, as you say, most of the huge errors had already been made, and there was not going to be the chance to recover from those errors.

Kind and Respectful Regards Panzerknacker my friend, Uyraell.

Panzerknacker
08-18-2010, 10:22 PM
As you probably Know the JATO bottles used by the luftwaffe were a bit too heavy for a fighter. There were some experimetation with solid propellant rockets for take-off boosting, but the manufacturing went mostly to assault gliders for brake attachments.

Uyraell
08-19-2010, 02:45 AM
As you probably Know the JATO bottles used by the luftwaffe were a bit too heavy for a fighter. There were some experimetation with solid propellant rockets for take-off boosting, but the manufacturing went mostly to assault gliders for brake attachments.

Correct. :)
However, the Me.262 C2 did not employ jato/rato as a solid propellant booster system.
The Me.262 C1 had an HWK 109-509 (liquid fueled rocket, same as employed to power the Me.163 B series) installed in the rear fuselage, and the fuels for it stored in the space usually occupied by the fuel tank behind the cockpit tub.
The Me.262 C2 variant simply suspended the HWK 109-509 rocket and fuel tanks below the fuselage of the aircraft. Once the rocket fuels were exhausted, the rocket motor and tanks could be jettisonned.
The C1 made a climb to 38000+ feet in just under 4 minutes from start. There is no reason to think C2 could not have achieved a similar result.

Which is where I thought fitting the C2 rocket booster pack to the Herget variant might have provided a very useful interceptor.

Small Question, Panzerknacker my friend:
Over the years, I have seen the Herget variant labelled as both the Me.262 D and Me.262 E.
Have you confirmation of which ( D or E) designation was applied to that airframe series as flown by Herget?

I've always called it "D" because "E" seems to have been variously a multiple rocket launching platform with rockets in the nose as in Ba349 Natter, or Wgr 21 in a cluster of 6 tubes arranged as in Hornisse B2-(U4?), or a cluster of 20x 50 mm rocket tubes as in RZ65.

However, since I've seen the "long-gun" Hertget variant captioned as both "D" and "E", I've long questioned which is in fact the correct designation, and have sought confirmation either way for years.

Kind and Respectful Regards Panzerknacker my friend, Uyraell.

Panzerknacker
08-19-2010, 10:14 AM
However, the Me.262 C2 did not employ jato/rato as a solid propellant booster system.
The Me.262 C1 had an HWK 109-509 (liquid fueled rocket, same as employed to power the Me.163 B series) installed in the rear fuselage, and the fuels for it stored in the space usually occupied by the fuel tank behind the cockpit tub.
The Me.262 C2 variant simply suspended the HWK 109-509 rocket and fuel tanks below the fuselage of the aircraft. Once the rocket fuels were exhausted, the rocket motor and tanks could be jettisonned.
The C1 made a climb to 38000+ feet in just under 4 minutes from start. There is no reason to think C2 could not have achieved a similar result.

Aaaaahhh, you mean the Heimatschüzter ( homeland protector) Me 262 with a tail rocket , yes that is definately a worthy variant for interception.


The 50mm gunned Me-262 is known as Me-262A-1/u4, honestly is that the only designation I know for that aircraft.

http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/1531/herget1zc4.jpg


An nickname for that rare variant was "Pulkzerstörer", formation destroyer, a nickname wich was used also by other antibomber projekts like remote guided explosive filled aircraft and missiles.




hello all,
Am using this opportunity to introduce myself to the community.My name is Calvin and I,m the new kid on the bloc hoping to find my way around your community to meet some nice and interesting people with fresh ideas.Hope we find a common path to tread.


Hello calvin , in off-topic you got a section for the introduction of new members.

Uyraell
08-26-2010, 10:14 AM
Aaaaahhh, you mean the Heimatschüzter ( homeland protector) Me 262 with a tail rocket , yes that is definately a worthy variant for interception.


The 50mm gunned Me-262 is known as Me-262A-1/u4, honestly is that the only designation I know for that aircraft.

http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/1531/herget1zc4.jpg


An nickname for that rare variant was "Pulkzerstörer", formation destroyer, a nickname wich was used also by other antibomber projekts like remote guided explosive filled aircraft and missiles.
.

Many Many Thanks , Panzerknacker my friend for the long-gun designation.
Apologies for my delayed reply.

I greatly appreciate your help with that designation, because I've seen the one you give mis-used elsewhere, for a 6-gun variant of the Me.262 with 2x Mk108's, 2x Mk103's (both 30 mm) and 2x 20mm MG151's. Of course the correct designation for the 6-gun variant is Me.262 A-1a/U1.

Kind and Respectful Regards Panzerknacker my friend, Uyraell.

Panzerknacker
08-27-2010, 08:34 PM
Many Many Thanks , Panzerknacker my friend for the long-gun designation.
Apologies for my delayed reply.

I greatly appreciate your help with that designation, because I've seen the one you give mis-used elsewhere, for a 6-gun variant of the Me.262 with 2x Mk108's, 2x Mk103's (both 30 mm) and 2x 20mm MG151's. Of course the correct designation for the 6-gun variant is Me.262 A-1a/U1.

Kind and Respectful Regards Panzerknacker my friend, Uyraell.

In my opinion the best gun for the Me 262 Heimatjäger interceptor was the Rheinmetall MK 112, far more fast firing than this Mauser monster ( 300 rpm compared with 160), far more lighter and carring enough explosive punch in his 55mm mine ammmunition to bring down a B-17 with one shot.

A classical operational profile for that would be an alarmstart climb ( using the rocket alll the way of course) to a 9000 meters, 2 o 3 passes on the bomber pulk ( it is stimated the standar Me-262 could carry a MK 112 with 30 rounds) and go back to base to refuel and rearm.

Fortunately for the USAAF the german lost it with his excessive love for prototypes.


http://www.luft46.com/dsart/ds262-1.jpg

The Six-gun Me-262 carried a heavy punch but harmonizating and feeding the guns of 3 different calibers must take a lot of work.

Uyraell
08-27-2010, 09:27 PM
In my opinion the best gun for the Me 262 Heimatjäger interceptor was the Rheinmetall MK 112, far more fast firing than this Mauser monster ( 300 rpm compared with 160), far more lighter and carring enough explosive punch in his 55mm mine ammmunition to bring down a B-17 with one shot.

A classical operational profile for that would be an alarmstart climb ( using the rocket alll the way of course) to a 9000 meters, 2 o 3 passes on the bomber pulk ( it is stimated the standar Me-262 could carry a MK 112 with 30 rounds) and go back to base to refuel and rearm.

Fortunately for the USAAF the german lost it with his excessive love for prototypes.


http://www.luft46.com/dsart/ds262-1.jpg

The Six-gun Me-262 carried a heavy punch but harmonizating and feeding the guns of 3 different calibers must take a lot of work.

I'm in agreement, regarding the Rheinmetall Mk112, though I'm not certain more than 4 were made to production standards, with perhaps another 3 virtually hand-made examples as pre-production weapons.
While the MK112 definitely had a better ROF, the MK214(?)/BordKanon
was at least available in greater numbers, which is why I suspect it would have been used, despite the MK112 being a better weapon.

The interception profile you suggest would certainly have been the most likely to have been employed operationally.

With regard to the 6-gun variant, I always thought that to be a case of simple opportunism: "Let's see what we can fit in to it."
I agree that harmonizing and loading 3 different weapons would have been a waste of time and resources.

Many Thanks for the HJ II pic in your post, I greatly enjoyed seeing it.

Kind and Respectful Regards Panzerknacker my friend, Uyraell.