Polish new fighters [Archive]

Kovalski

12-08-2006, 06:40 AM

These were 2 fighter planes which were planned to be produced by polish before the WW2.
The first one: PZL-50 "Jastrzab" ("Hawk") was designed by Wsiewolod Jakimiuk.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/rys050.jpg
The prototype was built by fall 1938 and took off in February 1939.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/fot063.jpg
The basic version was supposed to be armed with 4x 7,92 mm machine guns and 100 kg of bombs. The II version's armament - addtional 2 cannons and 300 kg of bombs.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/rys146.jpg
Engine: I ver. - Bristol "Merkury" mk. VIII (840 horsepower), II ver. - Bristol "Taurus" III (1145 horsepower). Max. speed - 450-500 km/h.
The only flying prototype was mistakenly shot down by polish AAA on 5th of September 1939.

Kovalski

12-08-2006, 06:44 AM

The second one was PZL-62, but the war stopped the design phase just after 4 weeks.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/rys070.jpg
The prototype was planned to make it's first take off in 1940.
Armament: one 20 mm cannons (Hispano-Suiza) and 6 or 8 7,92 mm machine guns, 500 kg of bombs under the wings.
Engine: Hispano-Suiza 12Z (14--1600 horsepower).
Max. speed: 640-700 km/h.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/rys049.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/rys066.jpg

All images were taken from: http://www.samoloty.ow.pl/

Chevan

12-08-2006, 06:55 AM

Good info Kovalski i'd never heared about own polish fighters.
I think PZL-50 was too slow for the effective fight with Me ( 450-500 km/h)
But PLZ-62 look very serious.
Excellent aerodinamic form and engine. I like it.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/rys070.jpg
And speed 640-700 is very good for the 1940.

Cheers

Polar

04-25-2007, 07:06 AM

Before WW2 almost all plane in first line was built and designed in Poland.
Few links about polish planes use in september campaigne
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL_P.7
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL_P.11
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL.23_Kara%C5%9B
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL.37_%C5%81o%C5%9B

snebold

04-06-2008, 08:29 AM

Poland was to receive a Supermarine Spitfire I in 1939 for trials. The war prevented that, and that Spitfire I went to Turkey instead.

HKS

07-14-2008, 05:23 PM

I believe the plane that the Poles ordered in 1939 was a Hurricane, not a Spitfire. I also remember that the Poles didn't get the plane because of the war--I think I read this in one of the books profiling the Hurricane, but I can't remember. Unlikely the British would have sold a Spitfire in 1939--the British held back Spitfires solely for the defense of their home soil as late as 1940--the air component of the BEF in France had only Hurricanes for fighters.

Egorka

08-06-2008, 08:45 AM

Off topic...
I am sure our Polish friends will apreciate this... :)

http://www.inilossum.com/home2guerra.html
http://www.inilossum.com/2gue_image/home2g1.jpg

HKS

08-07-2008, 02:18 PM

Interesting: whether Polish cavalry ever actually charged tanks on horseback seems to remain controversial. Based on what I'd read and pieced together from various sources (wikipedia is a leading source, so beware.) it seems to have been a mixture of exaggeration and propaganda: Guderian's autobiography brings it up, among other places, but that seems to be an apocryphal statement, rather than a literal, factual claim, intended to emphasize the advanced nature of panzer divisions, not so much that they were in fact engaged in actual shooting combat with Poles on horseback (I wonder how it reads in the original German); it seems to have gained a life of its own as others have seized upon it, whether to emphasize Polish foolhardiness (German) or courage (Western allies), or irresponsibility of Polish leaders (both German and Soviet), etc., even though, it appears, there had never been a recorded instance of Polish cavalry attack on German armor. Truly an interesting instance of how myths are perpetuated in history.

pdf27

08-07-2008, 03:57 PM

With the exception of fast armoured vehicles and radio, the early phase of WW2 was very similar to the latter end of WW1. And there were a number of highly successful cavalry charges in late 1918...

HKS

08-08-2008, 01:13 AM

Kovalski

08-10-2008, 03:12 AM

Cezar

09-03-2008, 08:12 PM

That's right. There was NO CHARGES WITH SABRES (cause lances was not liked, and only couple of brigades was using them in few numbers) ON PANZERS. It's only German and Soviet propaganda. There was only couple of charges in September 1939, about 20 or so. Couple of time of course, after storming on RESTING infantry (officers thought, that charge on infantry is a suicide) tanks was showing from nowhere, like Charge at Krojanty. And then, cavalry was charging over that tanks but only to escape, that was more successfull than turning back etc. And during that retreat it might happen, that in heat of battle uhlan cut through panzer armour. But not like it was shown in movie titled "Lotna" (1959) where uhlan was cutting barrel of a tank like an idiot. But that was a PRL (The People's Republic of Poland) propaganda about pre-war incompetence of goverment. In fact, to destroying tanks, cavalry was using one of the modern anti-tank cannon Bofors 37mm. And they was very mobile.

http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=nwsI9ulko60&feature=related - here you can see one and only proper charge of Polish Cavalry (and one of the best in polish cimenatographic) from "Hubal" (1973).

And here something more about our cavalry (with songs from that times ;) ):
http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=EjAhkoDBpWw&feature=related

http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb_O2O5f6J4&feature=related

http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=kmqhMuduv8U&feature=related

http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=T7gE158OEck&feature=related

Egorka

09-04-2008, 10:42 AM

P.S. Egorka, you little provocateur, I'll teach you a lesson one day :)
Cooooome on! Je ne suis pas un provocateur russe maléfique! Je suis en pettite fleur sauvage... :roll:
Just shearing internet stuff...

Awaiting for a lesson! As Lenin said: "Study, study, and more study!"

Egorka

09-04-2008, 10:57 AM

P.S. Egorka, you little provocateur, I'll teach you a lesson one day :)
Is this better?

1923. Return of the Poniatovsky monument to Warsaw:
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff124/sarmata_2007/2005_06.jpg

"Polish Prometei", 1831.
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff124/sarmata_2007/polish_prometheus_hi.jpg

Chevan

09-05-2008, 02:22 AM

I'm not claiming there were no cavalry charges per se--there was a famous cavalry charge by the Cossacks allied with the Germans that mauled a Soviet division on Christmas day, 1944, for example. But, I'm referring specifically to cavalry charge against tanks, which is depicted in the picture.
Nacis "Cossacs" or any other colloborators NEVER won the battle with Red Army.You probably mean one of the Nazis Propogand issue about "succesfull fight agains Bolshevism" - the most top invention of doctor Goebbels in 1944.
Actualy the "Vlasovs ROA" just ONCE have been used in battle against Red Army in 1944. They even started the attack , but have been crushed and soon retreated becouse Germans has not provided them with Artillery support.
After that "sad offensive" the ROA never be used in battles against regulary troops.
However you have a point , even the Mainstain in his memours wrote thet Red Army Cavalry was probably most mobil and effective force in Partisan warfire.This brought many problems for GErman infantry in 1941-42.
I doubt the Poles send the Cavalry right on Germans panzers.But in fact Cavalry can be effective force if to know how to use it right.

Chevan

09-05-2008, 02:34 AM

There were no charges of polish cavalry on german armor.
Never...

These kind of facts were created by german propaganda after the clashes between german tanks and polish cavalry units equipped with AT weapons.
But some people will never accept that ;)

I agree with you.
The Cavalry armed with AT rifles ,Light guns and Mashin-gun can be very effective.
Strange Nazis NEVER portrayed the Red Army Cavalry in that stupid posters( like direct attack of panzers).
Firsly becouse they suffer a lot from Cavalry during the entire war.

P.S. Egorka, you little provocateur, I'll teach you a lesson one day :)

Mate , you have not teached even me how to behave myself right here :)
I still friend of you , but not that Polish stupid politicans who spread the Ruso-phobia for their domestic aims..

Cezar

09-05-2008, 05:34 AM

And in Warsaw Uprising, Germans used... horses as a shield to attack Polish positions. But finally, after shooting starts, horses turned back in panic and ran over attackers. ;)

flamethrowerguy

09-05-2008, 05:51 AM

And in Warsaw Uprising, Germans used... horses as a shield to attack Polish positions. But finally, after shooting starts, horses turned back in panic and ran over attackers. ;)

And in Warsaw uprising Poles used children as fighters? Like on your avatar?;)

Cezar

09-05-2008, 06:10 AM

Chevan

09-05-2008, 06:47 AM

Nope, childrens want to fight by themselves ;) Noone told to 11 years old boy "Hey, you, come over here" they just volunteer. And basicly they was carrying ammo, orders, mails etc. Rarely on 1st line, but, by their own will if so. ;) That was war, and they want to do something too. Does in Berlin childrens doesnt fought with Soviets? I'm just asking because i really dont know :P

Yea Hitlerjugeng with PZfausts were ready to die in Berlin too.
So i think you right in Warsaw even some teenagers wanted to help their Polish adults.

And on the avatar, actually, thats me :D
What is it the uniform?The German helmet i see.

Cezar

09-05-2008, 07:07 AM

Yea Hitlerjugeng with PZfausts were ready to die in Berlin too.
So i think you right in Warsaw even some teenagers wanted to help their Polish adults.

That's the point! ;)

What is it the uniform?The German helmet i see.

Thats a... "Insurgent uniform" ;), there's M35 helmet with polish band around, and piece of SS M42 camo smock on summer side in Platanentarnmuster (6) camouflage. You can also see a Y-straps and strap of Bren-kit bag. :)

Kovalski

09-05-2008, 08:12 AM

What is it the uniform?The German helmet i see.

I read a diary of German soldier fighting in Warsaw Uprising. According to him, after few days of fighting some German soldiers stopped to wear their helmets, because they were also widely used by polish side, and there were cases of friendly fire on german side because of these helmets.

Kovalski

09-05-2008, 08:16 AM

Mate , you have not teached even me how to behave myself right here :)

You're one and only Chevan, a hopeless case :)

I still friend of you , but not that Polish stupid politicans who spread the Ruso-phobia for their domestic aims..

Well, it would be great if there were no Polo-phobia among Russian idiot-politicians.;)

flamethrowerguy

09-05-2008, 08:28 PM

Yea Hitlerjugeng with PZfausts were ready to die in Berlin too.
So i think you right in Warsaw even some teenagers wanted to help their Polish adults.
The slight difference would be that the AK boys are considered "heroic" in Poland,
the HJ boys are considered "misled" in Germany though.

And on the avatar, actually, thats me :D

Przepraszam, no offence. Just envy of a guy to slowly converge the feared "40"

Nickdfresh

09-05-2008, 11:27 PM

You're one and only Chevan, a hopeless case :)

Well, it would be great if there were no Polo-phobia among Russian idiot-politicians.;)

Or NATOphobia...;)

Cezar

09-06-2008, 10:07 AM

Przepraszam, no offence. Just envy of a guy to slowly converge the feared "40"

No problem :D That's frequently ;) Some peoples also confusing me with a girl :mad: :lol:

Adrian Wainer

09-08-2008, 07:27 PM

deleted post Adrian Wainer

Adrian Wainer

09-08-2008, 07:28 PM

And in Warsaw uprising Poles used children as fighters? Like on your avatar?;)

The Third Reich spent considerable effort to send Jewish children to the gas chambers, even dispatching trains for the purpose when German frontline troops were suffering defeats in part as a result from transport supply logistic problems. Given how low the Polish nation figured on the German scale of "racial purity", the Poles could have been next for the gas chambers. In the circumstances for children to fight an occupying power in their homeland, does not seem to me to be particularly out of order.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Adrian Wainer

09-08-2008, 07:54 PM

The slight difference would be that the AK boys are considered "heroic" in Poland,
the HJ boys are considered "misled" in Germany though.

Przepraszam, no offence. Just envy of a guy to slowly converge the feared "40"

Slight difference, is that Germany invaded Poland and much of the rest of Europe and in fact the Hitler Youth was misled, take a look at Goebbels hardly a great example of supposed "Aryan racial purity" or old Johnny one Ball himself Adolf Hitler, well if you suppose a failed Austrian postcard painter starting a World War seeking to re-organize Europe on the basis of a Wagnerian opera as a strategy and ideology makes good sense, well then no they weren't misled.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

PS I have haven't heard of any stories of the the likes Herman Goering or Reichfuhrer SS Himmler fighting T-34s in the dying days of the Reich with a rifle or a Panzerfaust, maybe because it never happened :confused:

flamethrowerguy

09-09-2008, 05:23 AM

The Third Reich spent considerable effort to send Jewish children to the gas chambers, even dispatching trains for the purpose when German frontline troops were suffering defeats in part as a result from transport supply logistic problems. Given how low the Polish nation figured on the German scale of "racial purity", the Poles could have been next for the gas chambers. In the circumstances for children to fight an occupying power in their homeland, does not seem to me to be particularly out of order.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Sorry, but kids used as soldiers is definitely out of order to me irrespective of the conflict and aera. Watch this boys in Africa these days, armed with AK's bigger than themselves: f**ked for life!

flamethrowerguy

09-09-2008, 05:29 AM

Slight difference, is that Germany invaded Poland and much of the rest of Europe and in fact the Hitler Youth was misled, take a look at Goebbels hardly a great example of supposed "Aryan racial purity" or old Johnny one Ball himself Adolf Hitler, well if you suppose a failed Austrian postcard painter starting a World War seeking to re-organize Europe on the basis of a Wagnerian opera as a strategy and ideology makes good sense, well then no they weren't misled.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

PS I have haven't heard of any stories of the the likes Herman Goering or Reichfuhrer SS Himmler fighting T-34s in the dying days of the Reich with a rifle or a Panzerfaust, maybe because it never happened :confused:

Good point here, but I see hardly a coherence to my post. Or do you believe to have read something "between the lines" making me approve Hitler's actions?:confused:

Adrian Wainer

09-09-2008, 05:59 AM

Sorry, but kids used as soldiers is definitely out of order to me irrespective of the conflict and aera. Watch this boys in Africa these days, armed with AK's bigger than themselves: f**ked for life!

So if you are saying then that it would have been wrong for Jewish children to fight against the Third Reich military forces, when those same forces were intent on exterminating them, if that is indeed the case that sounds to me like political correctness gone mad.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

flamethrowerguy

09-09-2008, 06:06 AM

So you are saying then that it would have been wrong for Jewish children to fight against the Third Reich military forces, when those same forces were intent on exterminating them, if that is indeed the case that sounds to me like political correctness gone mad.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

It was "wrong" (understatement of the year) to try to extinct the jewish population in the first place. As we all know two wrong don't make one right though. For the case you mentioned: there was no major (!) resistance attempts of the jewish people but the Warsaw Ghetto uprising in 1943 so it would be wrong to send in children first.
And remember there is always the danger of over-political correctness to go mad...

Adrian Wainer

09-09-2008, 07:42 AM

It was "wrong" (understatement of the year) to try to extinct the jewish population in the first place. As we all know two wrong don't make one right though. For the case you mentioned: there was no major (!) resistance attempts of the jewish people but the Warsaw Ghetto uprising in 1943 so it would be wrong to send in children first.
And remember there is always the danger of over-political correctness to go mad...

I never said anything about sending children in first. And to come back to your original remark, you made no exceptions and the fact that there were not other major Jewish resistance attempts than the Warsaw ghetto uprising is non-relevant. As for two wrongs do not make a right, one could apply that to all military activity and say the only response of the Western democracies to the rise of the Third Reich should have been disarmament and passive resistance in the style advocated by Mahatma Gandhi in his struggle for Indian independence, in the event of a Nazi occupation of United Kingdom and the United States of America by the Third Reich.

Sorry, but kids used as soldiers is definitely out of order to me irrespective of the conflict and aera. Watch this boys in Africa these days, armed with AK's bigger than themselves: f**ked for life!

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

flamethrowerguy

09-09-2008, 11:31 AM

So, what's your point in the first place? Glorifying kid soldiers?

As for two wrongs do not make a right, one could apply that to all military activity and say the only response of the Western democracies to the rise of the Third Reich should have been disarmament and passive resistance in the style advocated by Mahatma Gandhi in his struggle for Indian independence, in the event of a Nazi occupation of United Kingdom and the United States of America by the Third Reich.

Hey, that's a superb alternate history scenario. You should write a book about this...

Adrian Wainer

09-09-2008, 12:31 PM

So, what's your point in the first place? Glorifying kid soldiers?

Who said anything about glory I certainly didn't, war is a dirty nasty business and the best War is the one you avoid having to fight. Like people play computer games and think that it is fun.....well there is nothing fun e.g. about being on the receiving end of a 5.56 assault rifle round, since it makes up for it's lack of velocity and weight by acting in the same manner as a dumb-dumb round, it tumbles once it has struck the target. That said, it is a entirely legitimate action for a child to fight people who are exterminators.

Hey, that's a superb alternate history scenario. You should write a book about this...

Ha Ha very funny, unfortunately it would not be a very long book. The Waffen SS / Einsatz SS had a rather different methodology of dealing with civil dissent to that of the British Indian Army, I don't think Mr Gandhi and his associates would have got too far with the likes of civil dissent from inside an Indian Auschwitz, Zyklon B tends to be very effective in countering the legalistic and moral argument of folks like Mr Gandhi, and as for the greater mass of the Indian people, passive resistance e.g. laying down on railway tracks to stop trains would not have worked very well, if the Third Reich had been running the show in India, in that they simply would have run the train over the people lieing on the tracks. And while I am giving examples from India, there is no reason to suggest that the Third Reich authorities would have acted any differently had they met such passive ie non-violent civil resistance in an occupied United Kingdom or USA.

All of which by the way, seems somewhat besides the point in that in my opinion your position is effectively in tatters and you appear to be going off at tangents to distract attention from that. The English have a saying, when you are in hole stop digging.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

flamethrowerguy

09-09-2008, 12:40 PM

All of which by the way, seems somewhat besides the point in that in my opinion your position is effectively in tatters and you appear to be going off at tangents to distract attention from that. The English have a saying, when you are in hole stop digging.

So what was my position once again? Not to glorify the existence of kid soldiers, no matter the nation. So no need for distraction for your arguments can't change my point of view in this.
I just start to wonder about your exceedingly insistent dedication in some threads on the forum. Has it something to do with self-justification? Just mentioning that austrian sounding family name of yours...

Adrian Wainer

09-09-2008, 12:58 PM

So what was my position once again? Not to glorify the existence of kid soldiers, no matter the nation. So no need for distraction for your arguments can't change my point of view in this.
I just start to wonder about your exceedingly insistent dedication in some threads on the forum. Has it something to do with self-justification? Just mentioning that austrian sounding family name of yours...

Well speaking of Austrians, at least Otto Von Habsburg didn't think too much of Herr Hitler and his pals and speaking of family names are you related to the Auslandsdeutsche Flamethrowerguys of Moldova by any chance.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

flamethrowerguy

09-09-2008, 01:04 PM

Well speaking of Austrians well, at least Otto Von Habsburg didn't think too much of Herr Hitler and his pals and speaking of family names are you related to the Auslandsdeutsche Flamethrowerguys of Moldova by any chance.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Sharp-witted, ain't I? Good to hear about Otto von Habsburg and his opinion of Hitler and his posse. That makes to of us then.
I'll tell you a secret, don't pass it on: 'Flamethrowerguy' is not my real name, just a nickname for the forum. No connection to Moldova though, quite the opposite point of the compass.

Have a nice life!

Adrian Wainer

09-09-2008, 01:35 PM

Sharp-witted, ain't I? Good to hear about Otto von Habsburg and his opinion of Hitler and his posse. That makes to of us then.
I'll tell you a secret, don't pass it on: 'Flamethrowerguy' is not my real name, just a nickname for the forum. No connection to Moldova though, quite the opposite point of the compass.

Have a nice life!

LOL, Oh for sure I hadn't realized that it was unlikely in the extreme that "Flamethrowerguy" was your real name, ever watched Monty Python, you should have auditioned for it, in my opinion you're a natural.

Sorry, but kids used as soldiers is definitely out of order to me irrespective of the conflict and aera. Watch this boys in Africa these days, armed with AK's bigger than themselves: f**ked for life!

Not much about glory, there is there...like I think you are saying that children fighting in War is wrong at any time, under any circumstances.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Adrian Wainer

09-09-2008, 03:10 PM

Thought this might be of interest

POLISH AIR FORCE GUNS AND AMMUNITION 1918-1939

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Polish%20Guns.htm

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

flamethrowerguy

09-09-2008, 05:52 PM

LOL, Oh for sure I hadn't realized that it was unlikely in the extreme that "Flamethrowerguy" was your real name, ever watched Monty Python, you should have auditioned for it, in my opinion you're a natural.
Thanx, at least you got that one right! BTW, isn't that remarkable for a german?

pdf27

09-09-2008, 06:12 PM

Thanx, at least you got that one right! BTW, isn't that remarkable for a german?
Obligatory Goon Show quote:
Q: Who says ve Germans have no sense von humour?
A: Just about everybody I think!

<imagine Peter Sellers and Spike Milligan doing heavy German accents>

Adrian Wainer

09-09-2008, 07:47 PM

Obligatory Goon Show quote:
Q: Who says ve Germans have no sense von humour?
A: Just about everybody I think!

<imagine Peter Sellers and Spike Milligan doing heavy German accents>

Thanx for those postings pdf27 and flamethrower guy, really enjoyed them reminds me of a joke doing the rounds in Germany in the last days of the War.

Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels etc go to sea to examine a new wonderweapon u-boat, the submarine sinks and Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels etc are drowned but Germany is saved!

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer