Italian tanks and AFVs.

[Panzerknacker]

Probably the most unknkown of the armored divisions. I


http://i10.tinypic.com/4hl84ea.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

Carro Armato M-11/39.

In 1933 it was clear the the tankettes were not the answer for replacing the overaging FIAT 3000s and a new tank was commisioned. After experimenting about a bigger and heavier 12 tons tank based on the CV.33 design, a lighter 8 tons tank version was chosen. In 1935 new tank appeared with its 37mm L40 gun with a limited traverse of 15º on the left and on the right and 12º on top and bottom thanks to an hydraulic device on the horizontal plane. The gunner seated on the right and the driver, lightly reared, on the left while the commander manouvered the turret two Breda 8mm MGs. The engine, still of commercial version, transmitted its move through a gear box to the forward sprocket. The drive was possible because of an epicyclic lever and the brakes.


M-11/39 Prototype.

http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/4635/tanks/m39/m39_prototype.jpg


Ground tests demonstrated that the vehicle needed improvements on the engine and transmission systems; a new rounded turret was designed to speed and make easier the production and so, in 1937, the new tank, designed "Carro di rottura" (breaktrough tank) was requested in a first (and only) batch of 100 exemplaries.
Lack of materials delayed the production until 1939 when it begun to be delivered with the signature M. 11/39 (which states for "Medium tank weighting 11 tons and accepted in service in 1939"): this vehicle was taller, heavier (about 10 tons) and hard to explain the tank was lacking the radio (that instead was mounted on the prototype).
In May 1940 24 M. 11/39s were sent in A.O.I. ("Africa Orientale Italiana", Italian Eastern Africa) grouped in a "Compagnia speciale carri M.", special M. tanks company to reinforce the Italian positions in the colony. On the start of the conflict field commands required new tank reinforcements because the light CV. 33s were unuseful, as demonstrated in first encounters with British armored units. 70 tanks were placed at disposal of the 4th Tank Regiment and landed in Bengazi in July of the same year.

http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/7666/itacarroarmatom113932ww.jpg

When first employed against the English the M.11/39 got enough succes while being used in infantry support role during the first advance to Sidi Barrani. Similarly to the L. 33s this tanks were mechanically unreliable: in September when the Armored Groups were re-created the I Battailon of the 4th Tank Regiment's 31 tanks only nine were still in service. The first engagements with the british tanks immediatly proved the inferiority and weakness of the M.11 in both gun and armor thickness and shape, without speaking about the weak trasmission/suspension system.


http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/4635/tanks/m39/m39_rear.jpgA shot of the rear of a M. 39 captured by the British in North Africa.


The disaster was near: when the British launched their offensive in December 1940 the II Bataillon (2 M.11 companies) detached to Maletti Group was surprised near Nibeiwa and 22 of its tanks were knocked out. The I Battailon, while being part of the new Special Armored Brigade with a M.13 Battaillon and 2 L.33 battailons, was able to take only a minor part in the fight because the most part of its tanks were in Tobruk for repairs.
The following defeat in early 1941 took the destruction or the capture of almost all the M.11/39s: because of their unreliability and lack of any recovery vehicle the immobilized vehicles were abandoned in the enemy hands: the Australians equipped an entire regiment with the captured M.39 but they were soon put out of service because of their faults. The remnants six(!) tanks were used in Italy for training purposes and were officially put out of service after the armistice of September 1943.

http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/4635/tanks/m39/m39_destroyed.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

Characteristics M-11/39:

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/6570/m1139side7za.jpg



Weigth: 10,970 tons
Crew: 3
Weapons: Vickers-Terni 37mm L40 gun with 84 rounds, 2 8mm MG Breda model 38 with 2800 rounds.
Armor: hull 8-30mm (nose 30mm, sloped plate 14mm, front 30mm, sides 14-15mm, top 8mm, bottom 7mm, rear 14mm); turret 7-30mm (front 30mm, sides and rear 14mm, top 7mm).
Engine: 43hp diesel FIAT Spa 8T, 8-cylinders on V, liquid cooled
Speed: 34Km/h
Autonomy: 200Km
Length (max)4,73m
Width: 2,18m
Height: 2,25m


Layout of the transporte device.


http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/7323/itam11395ci.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/8985/fiatlh1.jpg

Extracted from "encyclopedia of Weapons of WW2"

[Panzerknacker]

Gallery of light and Medium tanks, note the 20 mm AT rifle armed tankette.

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/3042/galeriaob2.jpg


Plate from "Italian Armored Vehicles of WW2" Squadron Armor.

[Panzerknacker]

Carro Armato L3 Light Tank

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Italy/Ita-L3-Prototype.jpg

An experimental model produced by Fiat Ansaldo in 1937 on a chassis of a L.3 tankette. It had a 20mm Breda automatic cannon and an 8mm MG located in the turret much like the German Panzer II. This tank was never ordered into production.

[Strina-Croatia]

Can someone please post some photos of the M13/40?

[Panzerknacker]

Here you got M-13/40 and M-14/41, almost the same desing but the 14/41 was slightly heavier due the desert equipment.


http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/4719/11wu1.jpg


http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/4482/27gb.jpg


The maximum armor was 35mm.

http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/3434/37mo1.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

More pics of the M-14/41 and M-13/40 this are extracted from "Italian armored vehicles" Nicola Pignato, Squadron Armor.


http://i17.tinypic.com/42u3s06.jpg


http://i18.tinypic.com/2luut90.jpg


http://i16.tinypic.com/4cug0fo.jpg

One of the few advantages of this desing over the Britsh ones was that his 47mm gun was capable of fire HE ammo til 3500 meters, the 2 pounder gun only receive He ammo after the war in desert was over.

In the other hand the 47/32 mm gun was not very fast one with 640 m/s initial muzzle speed for his AP projectile.

in Rommel words "Is scary to see what kind of tanks the Duce has given to his soldiers" :roll:

And where Rommel speak I just keep a respectful silence.

[Strina-Croatia]

Thanks Panzerknacker i asked because i am finishing my bersagileri diorama in the desert so i wanted to see if i missed something.And i did not :-)!!!

[Panzerknacker]

And i did not

You like the precise works. ;)

M-13/40 in color :

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/7231/m1340ii7.jpg


Characteristics of the M-13 armament, the penetration power of the Ansaldo 47/32 gun seems a little optimistic.


http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/908/m13401yt4.jpg


Source of the pics: same as above described.

[Timbo in Oz]

serious piece of gear, Ariete had a lot by 1942, IIRC!

Timbo

[GermanSoldier]

http://i6.tinypic.com/43e34m1.jpg
Italian tank picture in color. The picture shows a 47mm Ansaldo 47/32 Gun. This tank was very much used in North Africa. With a AA gun and great muzzle velocity gave it a great fighting chance.

It is no doubt that Italian tanks played an important role in many of their victorys, but I would not want to be a tanker in one of the Italian tanks.

[Panzerknacker]

With a AA gun and great muzzle velocity gave it a great fighting chance.



Nice picture but the muzzle velocity of gun that war relatively poor, 630 m/s compared to 800 m/s of a british 2 pounder.

is no doubt that Italian tanks played an important role in many of their victorys, but I would not want to be a tanker in one of the Italian tanks

Rommel hated all the italian weapons (not the soldiers ) but you are corret most of the "PanzerArmee Afrika" was formed with italian armor.

In this video you can see italian armor and artillery, including the M-14/41 tank wich was the first vehicle to reach the Tobruk harbour when that fortress fell to the axis Forces in 21th June 1942.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJHrnVeNgIc

[GermanSoldier]

[QUOTE=Panzerknacker;95089]Nice picture but the muzzle velocity of gun that war relatively poor, 630 m/s compared to 800 m/s of a british 2 pounder.
Thank you for pointing that out for me. Thanks for the compliment on the picture.

[Panzerknacker]

No problemo.

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Italy/Ita-M1340-Desert-1.jpg


M-15/42:

This tank can be regarded as a product improvement of the M 14/41 though external resemblence is close. The tank is slightly longer and can be distinguished from earlier models by the lack of a crew hatch on the left side and the appearance of a crew hatch on the right.

http://i2.tinypic.com/30mamvl.jpg


The gun was longer, the turret was electrically traversed, speed improved, improved armor, and in general, a better ride.

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/3513/arietels5.jpg


82 of these tanks were built in 1943 before the war ended for Italy, but, these units did see action against the Germans. The rebuilt Ariete Division, located in Italy, took part in the Italian attempt to deny Rome to the Germans between 8 and 10 September 1943. The M.15s captured by the Germans were put to good use by their new owners.

[GermanSoldier]

The M15/42 Tank was an Italian World War II 15 ton tank first built in January 1943. Some 90 vehicles were built befor the Italian surrender in September 1943 and in connection to that event they were used in battle against the Germans by the Ariete armored division in Rome. After that point they were confiscated and used by the Germans who also built another 28 M15/42 tanks. Armament was once 47 mm main gun and for 8 mm Breda 38 machine guns.

http://i19.tinypic.com/3yf2y42.jpg

GENERAL CHARACTERISTICS
crew:4
length:4.92 m
width:2.2 m
height2.4 m
weight:14.37 tonnes
ARMOUR AND ARMAMENT
armour:42mm
main armament 47 mm L/40 gun 111 rounds
secondary armament: 4x8 mm Breda 38 machine guns
MOBILITY
power plant: petrol 145 hp
suspension: vertical volute spring
road speed: 35km/h
range: 200km

[Panzerknacker]

Thank G.S, the 40 calibres gun of this tank had higher muzzle speed that the used in the M-13s.

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/4463/ansaldozb2.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

Carro Armato Celere Sahariano.

http://utenti.quipo.it/mc68/italtank/Immagini/celere-s-0.jpg

Being impressed with the British cruiser tanks, the Italians attempted to make a copy for use in North Africa. The Carro Armato Celere Sahariano ( Fast Saharian tank) was clearly inspired by the Crusader, it had sloped armor and the 47 mm high velocity gun installed in a M-14/41 modified turret.

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Italy/Ita-CarroArmatoCelereSaharianoMediumTank.jpg

The hull employed a torsion bar suspension for improved cross country abilities. The tank can reach 60 km/h powered by a 270 hp Fiat diesel engine.

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Italy/Ita-CarroArmatoSahariano.jpg

The war in ended before this AFV could be put on service and the project was cancelled. A 75mm main gun was proposed for production models.

http://utenti.quipo.it/mc68/italtank/Immagini/celere-s-3.jpg

[Natxo]

Carro Armato L3 Light Tank

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Italy/Ita-L3-Prototype.jpg

An experimental model produced by Fiat Ansaldo in 1937 on a chassis of a L.3 tankette. It had a 20mm Breda automatic cannon and an 8mm MG located in the turret much like the German Panzer II. This tank was never ordered into production.

I must say that your information is not correct. This AFV was produced in Spain, in the Sestao Naval Yards, during 1937. The Spanish Army accepted the prototype, but problems with the manufacture of armoured steel plates stopped this proyect. Italian advisors were present during the design phase, ant it is inspired both by the L33 and the Pz I.

[Panzerknacker]

Are you sure ? Was was the spanish name of this.

[Natxo]

The name was CCI Tipo 1937. CCI stands for "Carro de Combate de Infantería", translated as infantry tank. It´s necessary to understand that for the spanish military the BT-5 used by the Republican Army was a heavy tank.
The tank was created thinking in the L3´s hull and the Pz I´s turret. It was intended to be protected only against 7,92mm ammunition, machine gun fire.
I can tell you that the buildings at the picture are from the Sestao Naval Yards.

[Panzerknacker]

OK, gracias por aclararlo, lo que habia visto antes era unos Pz 1 con torre equipada con cañon Breda de 20mm.

http://www.czolgiem.com/niemcy/foto/panzer1_20mm.jpg

[Nickdfresh]

Has anyone seen the film "The Lion of the Desert" about the Italian invasion and occupation of Libya?

The central Italian general, whose name I forget, makes the claim that he is "the first to put tanks in the desert" (circa the late 1920s or early thirties)...

Is this true?

[Panzerknacker]

Unless the british had deployed some armor in WW1 in his colonies, I believe that this statement is probably truth.

[1000ydstare]

Probably true.

The RAF put Armoured Cars in to the desert in the 20's but I don't know about tanks.

The history of No 3 (Field) Squadron Royal Air Force Regiment dates back to the inter-war years, before the formation of the Royal Air Force Regiment itself. It was Lord Trenchard's philosophy in the 1920s that, to support light bombers in their policing of large areas in the Middle East, Armoured Car Companies should be formed, manned by Royal Air Force officers and airmen and under Royal Air Force control. No 3 Armoured Car Company was formed on 3 November 1922 at Basra and served in eastern Iraq. The Company conducted operations both on its own and in co-operation with aircraft against disaffected Kurdish tribes over a wide area of southern and eastern Iraq. On 1 April 1925 the Company was disbanded and its personnel and vehicles were distributed among the remaining Armoured Car Companies.

They drove around in Rolls Royces....
http://www.tankmuseum.co.uk/news/images/new-images/image009.jpg

http://www.tankmuseum.co.uk/news/images/new-images/pro25c.jpg

Honest, they are Rolls Royces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls_Royce_Armoured_Car

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafaldergrove/aboutus/3sqnhistory.cfm

Tanks were certainly seen by the British as only any good for World War 1 type offensives. Many didn't wish to see them replace the Cavalry (in all armies). The Armoured cars above would probably have been more reliable and faster in the desert.

An outstanding achievement of the British Army was the creation of the Experimental Mechanised Force in the late 1920s. This was a small Brigade-sized unit developed to field-test the use of tanks and other vehicles. The unit pioneered the extensive use of radio to control widely-separated small units. The unit was short-lived, however.

Anyone like to guess what this unit inspired? Yep, thats right, the Blitzkreig was pioneered by the British and discarded, the Germans perfected it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanks_(1919-1939)

[1000ydstare]

I am pretty sure the Italians may have been, if the film is accurate, unless the British used them in Iraq inthe 1920s.

The Royal Tank Regiment, does not have any battle honours for the prewar period, so unless htey were used by other units...

I ahve a feeling htough that they used the cars as above. Lawerence of Arabia was a Tank officer though.

[Strina-Croatia]

The Italians were the first to do it with tanks but before them the french were testing armoured vehicles there

[GermanSoldier]

The Italians were the first to do it with tanks but before them the french were testing armoured vehicles there

Yes this is true because the French was the first nation to build a tank. (which was manuafactured in World War 1) After World War 1 the French were very interested in making a great tank that would give them the advantage on the battle field. While they were taking interest in their tanks the Italians were already in great process in their future tank population in World War 2. (Italy probably did not make the best tanks in World War 2.) Me personally I did not like the Italian tanks very much, but I like the effort that most Italians had during fights. No matter what tank, they were determined to win the battle. However this statement might have been true only a few times in World War 2.

[1000ydstare]

...the French was the first nation to build a tank. (which was manuafactured in World War 1) After World War 1 the French were very interested in making a great tank that would give them the advantage on the battle field. While they were taking interest in their tanks the Italians were already in great process in their future tank population in World War 2. (Italy probably did not make the best tanks in World War 2.)

I agree that Italian tanks were some of the worst in WW2, but wrt the first tanks I disagree...

The first tank design was, the Italian, Leonardo DaVinci (although it never got off paper).

The British were the first to design and develop "water carriers", so named after the cover story of them being tracked water carriers for the Army on the front. This name slipped to "water tanks" and then "tanks". The name becoming official in December 1915 as a cover, and eversince their actual name.

Little Willie was Britains first succesful prototype and was completed in Sept 1915 (design started in July 1915). The first British tank saw action during the Battle of the Somme on 15 September 1916.

The first French tank was the Schneider CA1, it started life as a tracked gun tractor (the British had these prior to the Great War as did many farmers and other countries) and thus can not be called a "tank" as such.

The Schneider Company was a large arms manufacturer in France. Having been given the order to develop heavy artillery tractors, in January 1915 the company sent out its chief designer, Eugène Brillié, to investigate tracked tractors from the American Holt Company, at that time participating in a test programme in England.

On his return Brillié, who had earlier been involved in designing armoured cars for Spain, convinced the company management to initiate studies on the development of a Tracteur blindé et armé (armoured and armed tractor (essentely and early "tank"), based on the Baby Holt chassis, two of which were ordered. In July 1915 this private programme was combined with an official one for the development of a barbed wire cutter by engineer Jean-Louis Bréton.

On 9 December 1915, the first chassis was demonstrated to the French Army (3 months after the British).

One of the onlookers was colonel Jean-Baptiste Eugène Estienne (1860-1936), a man held in very high regard throughout the army for his unmatched technological and tactical expertise. For Estienne the vehicle shown embodied vague concepts about AFVs already growing in his mind. On 12 December he presented to the High Command a plan to form an armoured force, equipped with tracked vehicles.

This plan met with approbation and a production order of 400 at a price of 56,000 French francs per vehicle was made on 25 February 1916. The first vehicle of the production series was delivered on 5 September. Meanwhile, production had shifted to the SOMUA company.

As their production numbers were more ambitious, the French lagged behind the British somewhat — it took them more time to build larger factories — deploying their tanks for the first time on 16 April 1917 at Berry-au-Bac during the infamous Nivelle Offensive (7 months after Britain's first operational deployment).

The first tank versus tank action took place on 24 April 1918 at Villers-Bretonneux, France, when three British Mark IVs met three German A7Vs taking part in an attack with infantry incidentally met three Mark IVs (two Female machine gun tanks and one Male with 6 pounder guns) near Villers-Bretonneux. During the battle tanks on both sides were damaged. According to the lead tank commander, 2nd Lt Frank Mitchell, the machine gun armed Female Mk IVs fell back after being damaged by armor piercing bullets. They were unable to damage the A7Vs with their own machine guns. Mitchell then attacked the lead German tank with the 6 pounders of his own tank and knocked it out. He hit it three times, and killed five of the crew when they bailed out. He then went on to rout some infantry with case shot.

The two remaining A7Vs in turn withdrew. As Lt. Mitchell's tank withdrew from action, 7 Whippet tanks also engaged the infantry. Four of these were knocked out in the battle, and it is unclear if any of them engaged the retreating German tanks. Lt. Mitchell's tank lost a track towards the end from a mortar shell and was abandoned. The damaged A7V was later recovered by German forces.

The Medium Mark A Whippet was a British tank of World War I. Intended to complement the slow Mark V tanks by using its relative mobility and speed in exploiting any break in the enemy lines.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Whippet.jpg
A British whippet (named after one of our Mods :D)

For the Germans, the A7V was a tank introduced by Germany in 1918, near the end of World War I. The name probably means Allgemeines Kriegsdepartement 7 Abteilung Verkehrswesen ("General War Department 7, Branch Transportation").

In German the tank was called Sturmpanzer-Kraftwagen (roughly "assault armoured motor vehicle"). 100 were ordered for the spring of 1918, but only 20 were delivered. They saw action from March to October that year, and were the only tanks produced by Germany in WWI.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/British_Mark_I_male_tank_Somme_25_September_
A British Mk 1 Male tank Somme, around 25 September 1916


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Schneider_CA1_%28M16%29_tank.jpg
A french Schneider CA1. Note the main armament on the front RHS corner. There was no similar armament on the LHS.

[1000ydstare]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/A7v.JPG
a German A7v, note that most of the hatches would have had a machine gun mounted in them.

Even if you go to the Tracked Tractors and claim they were tanks...

{quote]A crude caterpillar track was designed in 1770 by Richard Lovell Edgeworth. The British polymath Sir George Cayley patented a caterpillar track, which he called a "universal railway" (The Mechanics' Magazine, 28 January 1826). In 1837, a Russian inventor Dmitry Zagryazhsky designed a "carriage with mobile tracks" which he patented that same year. However, due to a lack of funds he was unable to build a working prototype. As a result his patent was voided in 1839. Steam powered tractors using a form of caterpillar track were reported in use with the Western Alliance during the Crimean War in the 1850s.

An effective caterpillar track was invented and implemented by Alvin Lombard, for the Lombard steam log hauler. He was granted a patent in 1901. He built the first steam-powered log hauler at the Waterville Iron Works in Waterville, Maine the same year. In all, eighty-three Lombard steam log haulers are known to have been built up to 1917 when production switched entirely to internal combustion engine powered machines ending with a Fairbanks diesel powered unit in 1934. [/quote]

Kégresse track is an unusual kind of caterpillar track which uses a flexible belt rather than interlocking metal segments. It can be fitted to a conventional car or truck to turn it into a half-track, suitable for use over rough or soft ground. Conventional front wheels and steering are used.

...

The name comes from the system's inventor Adolphe Kégresse, who designed the original while working for Tsar Nicholas II of Russia between 1906 and 1916.

from the wiki.

[Panzerknacker]

A rare italian design of WW1.

Fiat 2000 - Model 17

The first Italian tank. It was conceived by Fiat as a private venture in October 1916. The first prototype was ready in June 1917. Fiat donated 2 tanks to Italian Army in February 1918. Total production until the end of 1919. encompassed 6 vehicles. Arguably the finest heavy tank built in WW1 and a great "what if...". The Fiat 2000 never saw combat.

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Italy/Ita-Fiat2000-3.jpg


http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Italy/Ita-Fiat2000.jpg



http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Italy/Ita-Fiat2000-b.jpg



http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Italy/Ita-Fiat2000-Model17-IonFonosch.jpg


http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Italy/ItalianTanks.html

[GermanSoldier]

but wrt the first tanks I disagree...

The reason I said that is because I was watching the Military channel on tanks and it said that France was the first to create a tank. I guess they must of had some wrong information if your post is true.

[1000ydstare]

Don't worry about it. The History Channel and other sattelite channels often make mistakes (believe it or not). I think somewhere on here there is a thread about it.

Like I say though, it is generally accepted that the British were the first to look at an Armoured, Tracked Fighting vehicle. Prior to that there were Armoured Cars, I wouldn't like to guess who invented them, and Tracked gun tractors, maybe armoured but not "tanks".

The Channel may have used the armoured tracked gun tractors as the first "tank". Bearing in mind that this name was also coined by the British, as a cover originally, "tanks" in other armies were named differently.

Rather than the British Mk1.

[Panzerknacker]

Profiles of FIAT 611 armored car and other vehicles deployed in africa.


http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/7721/41128633cc1.jpg



http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/1950/51550836rg7.jpg


In here the 611 is armed with an ansaldo 37 mm gun.

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/6971/37965255vj3.jpg

[oriwalter]

Probably the most unknkown of the armored divisions. I


http://i10.tinypic.com/4hl84ea.jpg

The right SPG is a newly designed semovente?

[Panzerknacker]

No. I think is a Semovente dal 75/34. That figure refers to the calibre and lenght of the gun.


http://wio.ru/tank/for/sem7534.jpg

[oriwalter]

aham.... thanks... I tought that, because the right are lower, and the nose plate is other.

[Panzerknacker]

Ansaldo AS-37, armoured personel carrier:

http://i14.tinypic.com/4cux1ex.jpg

Designed as a APC truck this all drive entered in service in 1941. It wa sdesinged as a recce and transport vehicle for a crew of 8.

The lenght was 5 meters, width 1,9 meters and it had a height of 1,8 meters. Armor was comprised by a 8,5mm plate in every surface with a open back. In the later production vehicles an extra shield of 8mm plate was added in the rear to allow a machinne gunner to shot his weapon from a protected position.


The total weight was 5,7 tons, a 6 cilinders diesel engine with 75 hp was used allowing a top speed of 75 km/h in good terrain. The diesel fuel and a large capacity tank combined to gave an autonomy of 550km.

http://i13.tinypic.com/2lmw9ky.jpg

Some 500 AS 37 were delivered to the italian army, those were mostly used in antipartisan and security task in the Balkans and Greece.

[tankgeezer]

My experiences with Italian AFV's of that era show that they were either very good, or very bad, without a middleground. Even if the operational designes were good ones, the vehicles lacked sufficient armor to protect them from anything larger than basic rifle fire, and not so near misses by artillary. It also seems that a committee must have designed them, as some aspects were indeed well thought out, and others, not much considered. Like the ammo basic load, was very small,in some cases, and sometimes not onboard at all. (in the example of some Itlaian self propelled artillary.) Good automotive, but poor weaponry. Perhaps it was because they had only limited availability of some parts, and weapons, so had to "make do" with what was on hand at the time. - Raspenau -

[Panzerknacker]

You can add to the list that the lack of welded armor, only riveted one.

They have some nice non armored vehicles but the desing of the tanks....:rolleyes:

[tankgeezer]

My Lahti would love to chew on one,,well, not the whole vehicle,, but some of the armor plate would make for an interesting experiment.

[Panzerknacker]

Do you have a 20 mm rifle TG ? :shock:

Semovente 75/18

http://wio.ru/tank/for/sem7518.jpg

[tankgeezer]

Do you have a 20 mm rifle TG ? :shock:

Semovente 75/18

http://wio.ru/tank/for/sem7518.jpg

Hello my friend, yes, I do own an L-39 lahti AT rifle, I knew some fellows who oned one, and a Solothurn, and a Boys .55 rifle. they had mentioned seeing a lahti in an antique store, so I when exploring, and found it, sitting on the floor, under alot of dust. Luckily it was one of the few active rifles, and it being 1977, I got it for a right price, and did the transfer papers, and its been mine since, I have fired it a couple times, and it does quite a job on mild steel. Makes a fierce BOOM, and pushes you back about 100 mm.
It would be fun to test it on some genuine armor plate to see what it will actually do.( he man in the photo is not me,but its the same version of the rifle.

[Panzerknacker]

Beatiful weapon, the italians used the swiss Solothurn 20mm in some of his vehicles.

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/3042/galeriaob2.jpg

[tankgeezer]

They made an excellent choice in the Solothurn, the one my friend owned was a real gem of engineering, a work of art as much as a weapon. It had very little recoil, and the interchangable barrel assemblies made "hi volume" business possible.I really liked the optical sights, the lahti uses iron sights just like the 98 mauser rifle, only at the left side. the sights are indicated to 1600 meters, but it would take some good vision to see the target at that range.

[Panzerknacker]

Other use for the Solo 18-1000, mounted over the long range recce vehicle AS 42.

http://img342.imageshack.us/img342/6483/29fb1.jpg

[tankgeezer]

Thats quite a vehicle, looks well built, and would come in handy in rush hour traffic.... :) A 20m.m., and a machine gun makes for a very effective recon force. I think the 20 m.m as a recon weapon lasted into the 80's, when the bushmaster, and other higher velocity, modern guns, were adopted. That is quite a fine tribute for a caliber to prove so versatile, for so many years.I have to get on the stick and post the other 20's, I have info and pics for.

[Panzerknacker]

:D

With 20mm Breda and 13,2mm MG.

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/1219/marzo19433uq.gif



http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/6619/as420gs.jpg

[1000ydstare]

Are they fuel or water cans all along the sides?

I would hope they were water!!!!!!

[Panzerknacker]

Diesel in the sides, water at front.

[Tony Williams]

A 20m.m., and a machine gun makes for a very effective recon force. I think the 20 m.m as a recon weapon lasted into the 80's, when the bushmaster, and other higher velocity, modern guns, were adopted. That is quite a fine tribute for a caliber to prove so versatile, for so many years.I have to get on the stick and post the other 20's, I have info and pics for.

There were 20mm and then there were 20mm....pics from the Ammunition Photo Gallery on my website:

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/20mm1.jpg
20x70RB (Becker), 20x72RB (Oerlikon FF - aka IJN Type 99-1), 20x80RB (German MG-FF/M), 20x82 (Mauser MG 151/20), 20x94 (IJA Ho-5), 20x99R (ShVAK), 20x101RB (Oerlikon FFL- aka IJN Type 99-2), 20x105B (Solothurn S18-350), 20x105 (German MG 204), 20x110RB (Oerlikon FFS and HS.7, H.S.9 variants), 20x110 (HS.404 - Hispano)

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/20mm2.jpg
20x110 (HS.404), 20x113 (Lahti L34), 20x120 (Madsen), 20x125 (IJA Type 97; and Ho-1, Ho-3), 20x138B ('Long Solothurn' used in FlaK/KwK 30 and 38), 20x139 (Swiss FMK: drill), 20x142 (IJA Type 98), 20x144R (Bofors m/32)

and then, after WW2:

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/20mm3.jpg
20x110 (HS.404: Swiss API), 20x102 (US M39 and M61 Vulcan, GIAT 20M621), 20x110 USN (Mark 11 and 12 aircraft guns), 20x128 (Oerlikon KAA, also used in Meroka CIWS), 20x139 (HS 820 - now called Oerlikon KAD - M139 in US service - and also used in Rh 202, GIAT 20M693 / Vektor GI-2), 20x82 (Vektor GA-1: the MG 151/20, still in production!)

[Panzerknacker]

The only people who still use the 20x110 USN must be the Argentine Air force in their super Skyhawks :rolleyes:

[Tony Williams]

The only people who still use the 20x110 USN must be the Argentine Air force in their super Skyhawks :rolleyes:
That could well be, now that the French have retired their Crusaders. I'm not sure if anyone else still uses Skyhawks.

As well as being used in the Mk 12 (Hispano), the ammo was also used in the MK 11 gun which was only ever fitted into a gunpod - that might still be in use somewhere.

[Panzerknacker]

I thinks is the last of the line, New zealand and Singapore withdraw their A-4s some time ago.

Carro Armato P.75, P.40, P.26/40

In 1940 the need for a "heavy" tank was perceived by the Italians and plans were drawn up into what became the P.40 (originally designated as the P.75). The prototype was tested in early 1942 and mounted a 75/18 gun/howitzer and was powered by a 330hp diesel engine.

P-40/18 mock-up

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Italy/Ita-P40-prototype.JPG

Armament on the first prototype was changed to the longer 75/32 gun. This was the gun selected for use on all production models. The diesel engine proved to be wanting and consideration was given to the V12 engine from captured Soviet T-34 tanks!

P-40/18 (75mm L-18 gun) prototipe.

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Italy/Ita-P2640-HeavyTank-a.jpg

Productions models of the tank were equipped with a 420hp gasoline engine. No P.40, completed prior to the Italo-Allied armistice, saw service with Italian armored units.

All units produced were captured and added to German stock. Some hulls, without engines, were dug in and used as static forts. Some sources state that 21 while others state 24 units were produced under Italian administration.


Definitive model P-26/40.

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/1047/89rd4.jpg

mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/
http://digilander.libero.it/avantisavoiait/Reparti%20mezzi%20corazzati.htm

As many as 80 were produced by the Italians under German direction.

[veldm. keitel]

Probably the most unknkown of the armored divisions. I


http://i10.tinypic.com/4hl84ea.jpg

I don´t think so we in Holland now the tank it was a `far shooter`;)

[pdf27]

I thinks is the last of the line, New zealand and Singapore withdraw their A-4s some time ago.
Brazil still fly Skyhawks off their carrier. Also, Indonesia are allegedly thinking about bringing theirs back into service now they can get spares again.

[Panzerknacker]

True, I forgot about the brazilian A-4Fs.


I don´t think so we in Holland now the tank it was a `far shooter`


"far shooter", far shooter is wich sence ?

[Panzerknacker]

Fiat 665NM Scudatto.

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/9288/fiat665nm1yf1.jpg


This armored personel carrier was largely based in the Fiat comercial truck 665 model 1942. It consisted in the same chassis with the addition of 8-9mm steel plate all over.

The fiat scudatto ( scudatto = shielded) had a capacity for 29 soldiers more 2 in the crew, the sides and back of the vehicle were equipped with 19 ports from wich the soldiers could be use his rifles without exposing to enemy fire.

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/7154/665nm2az1.jpg

The armor protect only against fire from 7,7 mm rifles/mg and artillery splinters.

Powerplant was a V8 diesel engine with 115 hp, it gave the 9 tons vehicle a top speed of 72 km/h.

The Fiat scudatto was considered too heavy for the afrikan desert so it was only deployed in the Balcans and Yugoeslavia mostly for antipartisan and security duties. Just 100 Scudattos were made between 1942-43.

[Nickdfresh]

:D

With 20mm Breda and 13,2mm MG.

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/1219/marzo19433uq.gif



http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/6619/as420gs.jpg

I wonder if the SAS used any captured models? This seems like their "bag."

[Panzerknacker]

Dont know, I have no photo of captured Saharian trucks. Actually the vehicle is a response to the long range trucks used by the desert rats.

[DavidW]

Ping.

[Panzerknacker]

Semovente dal 75/18

After the first encounters with british AFVs, specially the infantry support tanks and other well armored allied vehicles the italian army was aware that his main antitank armament the Breda (Böehler) 47mm was ineffective in most ocassions.
As an interim solution the Semovente ( self propelled guns) were developed.

Semovente Littorio Div. may 1942.

http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/5118/semoventearietehd8.jpg
Following a similar path of the germans with his Panzer III/ Stug III, the italian modified the M-13 and 14/41 tank supestructure in order to accept an infantry 75 mm infantry gun.

The crew of the Semovente 75/18 was merely 3, driver, commander/gunner and loader.

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/5401/semoventeinteriorgs3.jpg


It was used in the infantry support role and also as a tank killer, 44 round were carried for the main gun. 3 types of ammo were used, steel core armor piercing, high explosive and a special "efetto pronto" ( quick effect) HEAT projectile. Also a Breda model 30 6,5mm MG or a model 38 7,7mm was carried in the top armor as defensive weapon against infantry and low fliying aircrafts.

The semovente 75/18 enter in production in late 1941 and began to arrive in the Afrikan teather of operations in january 1942, giving some badly needed extra punch for the Rommel s Panzer Army.

Characteristics Sm 75/18

Lenght: 4,91m

Width: 2,1 meters

Height : 1,9 meters.

Crew: 3

Engine: Diesel Fiat V8, 125 hp.

Speed: 33 km/h

Armor : max 32 mm, minimum 7 mm

Weight: 13,200 kg (in M-13 chassis) 14,000 kg (in M-14 chassis)

Muzzle velocity 75 mm gun: 430 M/s

Elevation: + 22º, -18º

Traverse: 20º left and right (hand)

Penetration of armor main gun: 59mm (APC) 70 mm (HEAT)

"Pepperbox" muzzle brake in the 75 mm ansaldo gun

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/9994/frenodebocaxx3.jpg

[Byron]

While the Italians were ahead of the game in organization and armor theory, they never got the design and production ends of it right. At the armistice, they were just starting to come out with a few good assault guns/tank destroyers based upon the Semovente (105/25 and 75/46).

If they had been a bit more on the ball (and Ansaldo had not owned a monopoly on AFV design, which led to poor quality throughout the war), they could have fielded AFV formations with P 40 tanks supported by the Semovente 105/25 and 75/46 AFV, possibly as early as late 1942. Quite a tough nut to crack, that would have been.

[DavidW]

I never knew about the Ansalado monopoly. How constrictive.
You would have thought it would have been lifted by Mussolinin in time of war.

[Nickdfresh]

I have a couple of questions for the Italio-philes...

Was Italy working on a newer tank comparable to the latest designs?

After the Germans took over, did some Italian units fighting under the Germans use completely German equipment?

[Byron]

Was Italy working on a newer tank comparable to the latest designs?


Depends on your version of "latest designs". The P40 was the best tank they were seriously working on (a P43 was on the drawing table, but really only a pipe dream) and it was generally about as good as the Sherman 75 (probably not as reliable or rugged as the Sherman however).

But in 1943, the Sherman was really not a good tank. The Italians best designs were based on the Semovente tank destroyers and assault guns (which fit their economy and industrial capabilities much better). Both the Semovente 105 and 75/46 were excellent designs overall and very potent weapons.

After the Germans took over, did some Italian units fighting under the Germans use completely German equipment?

I'm not sure but I doubt it. The Germans tended to keep the better equipment for themselves and dole out the lousy stuff to their allies. At that point in the war, they didn't trust the Italians--I doubt they would have equipped an Italian unit very well.

[snebold]

The only transfers of GERMAN tanks to Italy by Germany I´ve been able to find was before sep43.

12 each of Pz IIIN, IVH and StuG IIIG and 36 Tigers. The Tigers were repossesed by the Germans, I don´t know about the rest.

It´s reasonable to believe, that the Germans did not hand over any later as the fighting moved into terrain where tanks were not so crucial as elsewhere.

Panzerknacker: you seem to have a good source on Italian soft skinned vehicles as well!?
(I´d like to have an AS42 to scare some Hummer drivers of the road:cool:)

[larryparamedic]

A little used tankette flamethrower variant of the cv3/35 mostly seen in the desert of North Afrika. Seems it saw very little sucess there.
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f184/larryparamed/Ita-L35Lf-L3-35Lf.jpg
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f184/larryparamed/Ita-L35Lf-L3-35Lf-inaction.jpg
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f184/larryparamed/Ita-CV33-FlameOn.jpg
"Designed by Ansaldo but based upon earlier Carro Veloce 29. Although commonly referred to as a tank, this vehicle falls more properly within the classification of a tankette. The Italian authorities showed an interest in a small, light vehicle which would be suitable for use in mountainous terrain, leading to the acquisition of 25 British Carden Loyd Mark VI tankettes in 1929. A Fiat-Ansaldo modification of the Mark VI, armed with a Fiat Model 14 water-cooled 6.5 mm machine gun was designated as the carro i,elo(-e (CV) 29. The armament was subsequently changed to a single Fiat Model 14 air-cooled anti-aircraft machine gun, still 6.5 mm. Subsequent modifications resulted in the CV 3/33, still armed with a single 6.5 mm air-cooled weapon. Apart from its distinctive armament, this first series of CV 3/33 had a characteristic track tension idler mounted in a bracket which was attached to the rear idler wheel. In 1934, the second series of CV 3/33 appeared, with the track tension idler separated from the rear idler, and with two 8 mm machine guns as standard armament. The earlier series of CV 3/33 were eventually retrofitted with the heavier armament also. Development continued, and in 1935 the CV 3/35 appeared, incorporating minor design and production changes, and retaining the 8 mm armament. A final version, of which only a limited number was produced, was introduced in 1938. It differed significantly in its suspension system, and was armed with a single Breda 13.2 mm machine gun. External stowage of entrenching tools, etc, varied from series to series. The designation of both the CV 3/33 and 3/35 was changed to L.3 in the late 1930s.

Variations of the L.3 were built for special applications. The most frequently encountered variant was the flamethrower, which was built in a version with a self-contained tank for flame liquid, and also in a version in which a wheeled tank trailer carrying the liquid was towed behind the CV. There were a number of radio-equipped variants of the L.3 used by company and battalion commanders. A limited number of L.3s were modified to mount the 20 mm Solothurn anti-tank gun in lieu of the machine guns. T ' wo experimental variants of the L.3 were also produced, the first being the carro gettaponte, or bridge-laying tank, very similar in concept to present-day AVLBS, and the second being a recovery vehicle with an A-frame on the rear which could be controlled from inside the tank, making it similar in concept to present-day VTRS. It is interesting to note that this appears to have been the only Italian attempt at building a tracked VTR.

The CV was not meant to be used in lieu of heavier tanks, but was designed according to the Italian doctrine of the period, for security and reconnaissance duties, and was also to be utilized in the elimination of small pockets of resistance. However, the outbreak of hostilities earlier than anticipated by Italy forced them to use what was at hand, namely large numbers of the L.3. More than 75% of the tank formations encountered by the British in their desert offensive of late 1940 and early 1941 were comprised of the L.3, whose armor was not even proof against the armament of British armored cars which they encountered. The L.3 continued to be used throughout the war, being employed after 8 September, 1943 by units of the RSI."

[Byron]

Yes, the L3 was not really an effective combat vehicle! When you consider that it would have to close to use the flamethrower it's little surprise that it was not effective in this role! :rolleyes:

I never knew about the Ansalado monopoly. How constrictive.
You would have thought it would have been lifted by Mussolinin in time of war.

I believe that the monopoly was the result of the political system in Italy so Mussolini couldn't break it up due to the political backlash.

[Panzerknacker]

A little used tankette flamethrower variant of the cv3/35 mostly seen in the desert of North Afrika. Seems it saw very little sucess there


In north Afrika was not good because the lack of range, in Abisinia in 1936 was a superb weapon however.

Of course the Selassie warriors had not proper AT weapons.

[Byron]

In north Afrika was not good because the lack of range, in Abisinia in 1936 was a superb weapon however.

Of course the Selassie warriors had not proper AT weapons.

That and paper-thin armor on the CV as well!

I remember reading somewhere that the Selassie would run up to the CV-33/35s and, in true frat-boy style, tip them over! Not the best anti-tank doctrine. Of course, the crew was then trapped in the tankette and would die from exposure.

[Churchill]

That would really suck. Dieing in a functional tank because it's on its side...

[DavidW]

that the Selassie would run up to the CV-33/35s and, in true frat-boy style, tip them over!

And in that moment, cow tipping was born!

[Panzerknacker]

Littorina Blindata "Libli":

Self propelled armored rail cruiser made by Ansaldo in 1942-43, it was used mostly in the Balkans and Yugoeslavia to patrol in antipartisand role, specially watching the security of main railways one of the most targeted objetive the guerrilla fighters..

http://i32.tinypic.com/11kbjx3.jpg

The weapons included two M-13/40 47/32 mm armed turrets and two 45 mm semiautomatic mortars "Brixia", plus several Breda 7,7 and 13 mm machineguns.

The armor varied between 11 mm ( sides) to 32 mm ( maximum in front turret).

http://i25.tinypic.com/14lkj9s.jpg

More info to come, I have to translate that.

[Nickdfresh]

Littorina Blindata "Libli":

Self propelled armored rail cruiser made by Ansaldo in 1942-43, it was used mostly in the Balkans and Yugoeslavia to patrol in antipartisand role, specially watching the security of main railways one of the most targeted objetive the guerrilla fighters..

http://i32.tinypic.com/11kbjx3.jpg

The weapons included two M-13/40 47/32 mm armed turrets and two 45 mm semiautomatic mortars "Brixia", plus several Breda 7,7 and 13 mm machineguns.

The armor varied between 11 mm ( sides) to 32 mm ( maximum in front turret).

http://i25.tinypic.com/14lkj9s.jpg

More info to come, I have to translate that.

But what if the partisans blow the tracks and just derail it? :D

[Panzerknacker]

Well, that is the dilemma of all armored trains, not to mention aircraft attacks. By the way the brixia is not an "semiautomatic mortar" but is manually repeater.

[Panzerknacker]

More images of the Littorina Libli. The engine was a diesel V8 240 hp.

http://digilander.libero.it/avantisavoiait/Libli_2.JPG


inside view, the 47 mm turret base and the driver and co-driver seats behind.

http://digilander.libero.it/avantisavoiait/Libli_5.JPG


http://digilander.libero.it/avantisavoiait/Gall_foto_Littorina_blindata_Ansaldo.htm

A remarkable characteristic was the use of a side "lanciafiamme", flamethrower with a range of 35 meters.

[Cav1]

Scrolled through and didn't see this photo. Hopefully I uploaded it correctly. To the rear, the standard L3/35 armed with twin 8mm machine guns and in the front the L3 cc contracarro fitted with the Solothurn 20mm. I have a war-time set of Swiss publications that have photos of Italian armor. I'll see if there are any new ones not in this thread and scan them if so.

[Panzerknacker]

Nice, I ve posted something like that, a profile here:

http://forums.soccerfansnetwork.com/showthread.php?t=43658

In a german newsreel I had see the 20 mm at gun mounted outside the mantlet of this tankette.

[Byron]

Solothurn 20mm

Yep, the tankette was actually armed with an anti-tank rifle. This was a poor attempt to make it effective against opposing armor. Some of these types were even included in the Axis forces during El Alamein! You do what you can.... :rolleyes:

[Panzerknacker]

It have good effects in armored cars and A9/A13 cruisers but none against Shermans and Grants, the main battle tanks of the allied forces in Alamein.

[Cav1]

More pics of Italian armor. A few images from Das grosse Weltgeschehen, a series of books published in Switzerland during WWII. I haven't come across these photos elsewhere in other sources, so perhaps they will be "new" to other members as well. I'm no expert on Italian armor, so hopefully one of the resident experts here can provide more information than that found in the original captions. I'm thinking M 11/39 in the first photo, M15/42 in the last one...and in the middle??? An export or license-built version of the Renault FT-17?

[Cav1]

Whoops. I see from previous illustrations that the middle photo is of a Fiat 3000A. Mongo does not know much about Italian armor, just found some interesting old photos.

[Panzerknacker]

Vey good ones, I think the tanks in the left are M-14/41, the 15/42 used a longer main gun.

[Panzerknacker]

Panzer III ausf N used by the Division Centauro, some were imported from Germany in Early 1943.

http://i33.tinypic.com/vpiw5s.jpg


http://i33.tinypic.com/j6h79i.jpg


Panzer IV ausf G of the same combat unit.

http://i37.tinypic.com/r2pxch.jpg

It seems that this AFVs were not deployed in Afrika, only they saw use in the Italian mainland.

[DavidW]

Correct.

Divisione Centauro only had Italian tanks in North Africa.

[Panzerknacker]

Divisione Centauro only had Italian tanks in North Africa.

Wich was not promising in regard of the combat capabilities.:mrgreen:

StuG IIIs of the Centauro div. Between 25 to 30 examples were delivered in april 1943.

[Django]

Excellent thread Panzerknacker, thanks for the link!

Still trying to find my way around this impresssive site

[Panzerknacker]

Thank you and dont worry, there are people that got some 700 post ( not just seven) , and still they are trying to find the way around.

Semoventi M1940 dal 75/18 near Bir Hacheim, June 1942.

http://i33.tinypic.com/2le2qlv.jpg

[Panzergrenadier Italien]

do anyone knows if the saharino recce was anfibius?

[Panzerknacker]

No, is not amphibian, there was no need of that because hardly it going to cross rivers in the "Africa Settentrionale" theater of operations.

http://www.afrikakorps.org/_photos/Italian/Sahariana.jpg

[Uyraell]

Carro Armato Celere Sahariano.

http://utenti.quipo.it/mc68/italtank/Immagini/celere-s-0.jpg

Being impressed with the British cruiser tanks, the Italians attempted to make a copy for use in North Africa. The Carro Armato Celere Sahariano ( Fast Saharian tank) was clearly inspired by the Crusader, it had sloped armor and the 47 mm high velocity gun installed in a M-14/41 modified turret.

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Italy/Ita-CarroArmatoCelereSaharianoMediumTank.jpg

The hull employed a torsion bar suspension for improved cross country abilities. The tank can reach 60 km/h powered by a 270 hp Fiat diesel engine.

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Italy/Ita-CarroArmatoSahariano.jpg

The war in ended before this AFV could be put on service and the project was cancelled. A 75mm main gun was proposed for production models.

http://utenti.quipo.it/mc68/italtank/Immagini/celere-s-3.jpg
I cannot help but think this tank looks very similar to a T34/76/06.
I know there are only a certain number of "viable solutions" in developing tanks, yet: the close similarity to the T34 struck my eyes immediately.

Given a proper main armament, in the 75mm class, this, lightly armoured though it is, could have been a formidable tank indeed, given the combat methods of the era.

Regards, Uyraell.

[Panzerknacker]

It had a bit of the T-34, tank wich the italians already faced ( and suffered) with the Expeditionary Corps sent to Russia in july 1941, but its more important inspiration was the Crusader, AFV wich really impressed the italians, ironic because in british service the crusader was considered no match for german mediums Pz III and IV and also mechanically unrealiable.

Images of knocked down M-13s. Is interesting to note the shape of the cracks in the armor, the lower pic indicates an overhardened plate wich was broken like a porcelain plate by the incoming round. Very low quality armor.

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/4246/m13bag.jpg

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/9841/m13ko.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

Nice picture of Rommel near the Semoventi 75/18 of the Ariete division close to Bir Hacheim.

http://i36.tinypic.com/2na73m9.jpg