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Chevan
11-12-2006, 04:32 PM
Hi guys.
Do somebody know something about nazi criminals fate after the war.
I have a interesting example: Bah-Zelevski
This bas.. commanded by the cruel massacre in Warsaw in 1944.
I read during the uprision he was called by BBS radio in list of mens who were responsable for atrocities.
After the war he was in western zone occupation. Also i know that he was convict for 10 (!!!) years by Bonn (!!!) court in 1956.
So anybody know somthing about this?

Chevan
11-12-2006, 11:56 PM
http://wolfschanze.vif2.ru/images/BACHSEL.JPG
Erich fon Bah-Zelevski (1899-1972)
The best Hitler's "specialist" of suppression of guerrialas.
He was appointed by the responsable for the distruction of polish partisan simce 21 jule of 1943. He was a who developed the "operation" of liqudation the Warsaw uprising.
How it was the one of the worst war criminal of WW2 lived so long time after the war?

Gen. Sandworm
11-13-2006, 02:33 AM
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/crimestoc.html

Although this mostly deals with the Holocaust it also covers other incidences such as The Malmédy Massacre. You might want to check out the "Nazi War Crime Trials [List]" Anyhow its a pretty good site about post war trials.

Chevan
11-13-2006, 02:51 AM
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/crimestoc.html

Although this mostly deals with the Holocaust it also covers other incidences such as The Malmédy Massacre. You might want to check out the "Nazi War Crime Trials [List]" Anyhow its a pretty good site about post war trials.
Thanks Gen.
But i don't think that Malmedy Massacre where were killed 90 or 130 POWs is equal of the Warsaw atrosities (where killed about 15 000 rebels and at least 100 000 civilians).
Also SS-officer Bah-Zelevski was guilt in mass murdering of jews since 1942. It's amazing how long time this bas.. was free from any punishment for atrosities. And i think the 10-years sentence for him look like justification.
What do think about our polish friend?

Digger
11-13-2006, 06:40 AM
Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski was kicked out of the Reichswehr for his pro Nazi sympathies and first came to real prominance for his role in the Rohm Putsch when he had a rival Ss Cavalry officer Anton Freiherr von Hohberg und Buchwald murdered.

At a meeting in Wewelsburg in early 1941 Himmler revealed to Bach-Zelewski the Nazi master plan for the elimination of thirty to fifty million Slavs and the relocation of millions of others.

In the wake of Barbarossa Himmler appointed Bach-Zelewski as HSSPF commander for Minsk and he enthusiastically carried out the round up and executions of political and undesirable elements. The HSSPF were actively competing with the Einsatzgruppen in the elimination of Jews as well.

Bach-Zelewski himself personally murdered large numbers of prisoners, usually with a bullet to the head and in early 1942 suffered a nervous breakdown. After being released from the SS hospital in Holenlychen he pleaded with Himmler to settle the whole Jewish business in the east.

Himmler warned Bach-Zelewski of the dire consequences he faced,"That is a Fuhrer order,"he replied."The Jews are the disseminators of Bolshevism, if you don't keep your nose out of the Jewish business, you'll see what'll happen to you."

Himmler later in the year appointed Bach-Zelewski Cheif of Anti Partisan Formations, the post he held during the Warsaw Uprising. In his typical brutal fashion Bach-Zelweski's forces crushed the rebellion. Guderian horrified at the brutal methods used, petitioned Hitler to remove Bach-Zelewski's forces from the Eastern Front.

Hitler agreed, but not before ordering Bach-Zelewski to eliminate a potential cheif witness to the atrocities in the shape of SS Brigadefuhrer Bronislav Kaminski a White Russian. I believe this was why Bach-Zelewski was able to slip through the net.

Regards to all,
Digger.

Chevan
11-14-2006, 01:03 AM
Thanks Digger good info
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/thumb/5/55/Kaminskij.jpg/180px-Kaminskij.jpg
Bronislav Kaminski
Indeed it's no a single datas was Kaminski shooted by order of Hitler, or was killed by partisan.
No any doubts Bach-Zelewski was one of the worst war criminal in WW2.
The "heroical" life of this scum during 1941-1945 is known enough good.
There are many testimonies of german generals: Hitler was in delight from Bach-Zelewski.
"Bach-Zelewski is extremaly talanted" - Said Hitler to somebody of generals after the cruel suppression of Warsaw uprising. -" He could persuade anybody" ( when poles was forsed to capitulate)

But what's the real mystery for me - what was after 1945.
I know he was a witness for the prosecution on Nurenberg Tribunal against Himler. So he was in the hand of allies.
It's absolutlu unpossible how he shun the gallows ?
It absolutly clear the till 1956 he calmly lived and nobody (except german court not interested him).

P.S.
The fate of another SS scum - Oscar Dirlivanger whose police batallion (mostly from criminals) also "glorified" in Warsaw (together with SS-brigade of Kaminski) also is quite strange.
After the capitulation of Germany , Dirlivander come to the hand of french, was puted to the Hospital(!!!) Then he simply dissapeared.

Panzerknacker
11-14-2006, 04:44 PM
I have to agree with last ones kamiski and Dirlewanger were probably the most discusting war criminals of the WW2, with the excepsion of their bosses, but Kamiski for example outraged Himmler himself :shock:

In any case this 2 did not scape justice, simply had anither "kind" of more violent punishment.


Some war criminals dis escape the justice for long time and were helped by the allied forces like Klaus Barbie, but eventually also fell.

Chevan
11-15-2006, 04:20 AM
I have to agree with last ones kamiski and Dirlewanger were probably the most discusting war criminals of the WW2, with the excepsion of their bosses, but Kamiski for example outraged Himmler himself :shock:

In any case this 2 did not scape justice, simply had anither "kind" of more violent punishment.


Some war criminals dis escape the justice for long time and were helped by the allied forces like Klaus Barbie, but eventually also fell.
So do you think is it normal the people who has a personal guilt in mass atrosities in East calmly lived after the war?
So what for was sentence the nazi's leader in Nerenberg? If the nazi's executors of mass crimes avoided the punishment.

P.S.
New joke about it:
The jewish of Simon Viezental's centre ( which search the nazi criminals around all the world) declared in the Estonia that every who helped to find any estonian-nazi criminal (or colloborat with nazi) who still lived in country will get $10 000 reward.
One to the answer the member of Estonian government suggest to declare the reward of $20 000 whom give the information about Estonian jewish-communist during the soviet ocupation period. :):);)

Panzerknacker
11-15-2006, 05:08 PM
So do you think is it normal the people who has a personal guilt in mass atrosities in East calmly lived after the war?

Is not normal and is not right, but unfortunately it happen several times, take the case of Doktor Mengele for example, he deserve to be hang for sure, but he escaped from the justice and died peacefully in Brazil.

Lancer44
11-16-2006, 05:09 AM
Hi Chevan, thanks for this thread, mate!


http://www.spectacle.org/695/perp.html

"Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski was an Einsatzgruppen general in the East responsible for the shooting of hundreds of thousands of Jews. (About two million of the war's six million Jewish victims were killed in this manner.) During a visit during which Himmler witnessed the murder of one hundred Jews, Bach-Zelewski told him:
Look at the eyes of the men in this Kommando, how deeply shaken they are! These men are finished (fertig) for the rest of their lives. What kind of followers are we training here? Either neurotics or savages!

In 1942, Bach-Zelewski had a nervous breakdown and was hospitalized for "psychic exhaustion" and "hallucinations connected with the shootings of Jews" However, he recovered and went back to killing(Lifton, pp. 159, 437).

Bach-Zelewski's fate after the war makes an interesting footnote. He was tried in 1961 for his part in the murders of the S.A., the rival German military arm, in 1934, and sentenced to three and one half years; he was then tried again in 1962 for the murder of six Communists in 1933, and sentenced to life. Neither indictment mentioned his Einsatzgruppen activities. Arendt says: "He was also the only one in this category who in 1952 had denounced himself publicly for mass murder, but he was never prosecuted for it" (p. 16)."


I can add my own comment: Poland and USSR after WWII and well into 70's, had quite a lever and power to demand prosecution of nazi war criminals. Both countries and their communist governments never used this powers against von dem bach-Zelewski.

Reasons?

1. Any independent court would disclose that claims od Einsatzgruppen shooting 2 million Jews in Belarus and Ukraine are greatly inflated. 2 mln people, yes, but not all of Jewish origin.
USSR was a great supporter of new born Israel. Weapons and help was transferred easily. When Israel become more of an US ally, USSR gradually become Israel enemy and supported Arabs.
Digging into past was neither convenient for USSR and Israel...
Please, remember that countries may be at war, but their intelligence agencies are still talking in neutral countries...

2. Polish communists always bent backwards to orders from Moscow. For them Warsaw Uprising and massacre of Warsaw civilians perpetrated by von dem Bach Zalewski was a topic to say, at least embarassing...
Uprising in Warsaw was in essence anti-soviet... Any publicity would again provoke question of Stalin's reaction to Warsaw mutiny.
It was much more convenient to promote rebuilding of Warsaw, than again disclose that Wola district massacres were Kaminski's and his Russian traitors job.

Conclusion: Thousands or millions of victims are not important for politicians or governments. Doesn't matter who and when is involved.

BTW, both von dem Bach Zalewski and Kaminski had Polish parents... Sometimes I wonder what is hidden in human genes...
What is a real meaning of the word traitor..?
There is a lot of topics in WWII history which are still in a fog. Russian collaborators, Polish volksdeutches...

We will learn more in coming years...


Lancer44

Digger
11-16-2006, 05:23 AM
A large number of 'war' criminals from the SS, Gestapo, SD, and other Nazi security forces escaped justice purely and simply because they were recruited by the reformed security and armed forces of East and West Germany.

Regards to all, Digger.

Lancer44
11-16-2006, 06:48 AM
A large number of 'war' criminals from the SS, Gestapo, SD, and other Nazi security forces escaped justice purely and simply because they were recruited by the reformed security and armed forces of East and West Germany.

Regards to all, Digger.

Not only East and West German... I can find quite a few cases where military intelligence of Poland, USSR, Hungary and Romania closed eyes and recruited
"brilliant" fellows with nazi past.

The other side of the Iron Curtain was not better! If not worse!

But there is a difference between nazi agent, nazi scientist, nazi specialist and NAZI BUTCHER...

Cheers,

Lancer44

Digger
11-16-2006, 06:58 AM
I think this situation could have been called post war expediency. Also South American countries were beneficiries of these gentlemen.

Regards to all,
Digger.

Nickdfresh
11-18-2006, 06:15 PM
Thanks Gen.
But i don't think that Malmedy Massacre where were killed 90 or 130 POWs is equal of the Warsaw atrosities (where killed about 15 000 rebels and at least 100 000 civilians).
Also SS-officer Bah-Zelevski was guilt in mass murdering of jews since 1942. It's amazing how long time this bas.. was free from any punishment for atrosities. And i think the 10-years sentence for him look like justification.
What do think about our polish friend?


I wholeheartedly agree. People like Jochen Pieper got off with leniency for their massacres of Soviet citizens. I'm not positive, but I believe US prosecutors tried to factor in these murders and posed the killings of US POWs as something of a symbolic event that would lead to a greater justice. I know at his trial, Pieper's "Blowtorch Battalion" antics were mentioned often. But unfortunately, he ended up being granted leniency (only 11-years in Prison!) because of several missteps by the prosecution as his death sentence was commuted to life in prison. To this day, I wonder who actually killed him in 1976? Rumors abound that he was assassinated by the KGB, US war veterans, or veterans of the French Mache (resistance)..

And thank you for this thread Chevan, Nazi atrocities against the unarmed men, women, and children of the former Soviet Union need to be spoken of more often...

Nickdfresh
11-18-2006, 06:22 PM
A large number of 'war' criminals from the SS, Gestapo, SD, and other Nazi security forces escaped justice purely and simply because they were recruited by the reformed security and armed forces of East and West Germany.

Regards to all, Digger.


And the French Foreign Legion --many served in Indochina (Vietnam) during the early 1950s...

Nickdfresh
11-18-2006, 06:26 PM
Not only East and West German... I can find quite a few cases where military intelligence of Poland, USSR, Hungary and Romania closed eyes and recruited
"brilliant" fellows with nazi past.

The other side of the Iron Curtain was not better! If not worse!

But there is a difference between nazi agent, nazi scientist, nazi specialist and NAZI BUTCHER...

Cheers,

Lancer44

As did the CIA, and US Army Military Intelligence, and more often than not, they really had little worthwhile to offer as intelligence professionals...

Chevan
11-20-2006, 04:20 AM
Thanks very much guys :)


Bach-Zelewski's fate after the war makes an interesting footnote. He was tried in 1961 for his part in the murders of the S.A., the rival German military arm, in 1934, and sentenced to three and one half years; he was then tried again in 1962 for the murder of six Communists in 1933, and sentenced to life. Neither indictment mentioned his Einsatzgruppen activities. Arendt says: "He was also the only one in this category who in 1952 had denounced himself publicly for mass murder, but he was never prosecuted for it" (p. 16)."

Thank you dear Lancer.Now i learn more about this scum.
I/m sure that killing of six communist in 1933 - all what was really proven.



Reasons?

1. Any independent court would disclose that claims od Einsatzgruppen shooting 2 million Jews in Belarus and Ukraine are greatly inflated. 2 mln people, yes, but not all of Jewish origin.

Mate you touched the two great problems:
First no one independent western court will concider the lives of slav as equal the lives the vestern citizents. I think this is the main reason why many of nazi criminals ( who was noted only in atrosities in East) run to the west.
If you killed the tens of thousands of slav you will get the les punisment if you would killed the tens of Allies POWs.
I think it was the duals standarts. The Cold war just intensify it but it was not the primary reason.

Second the claim for the killing of millions of the jews in East. You absolutly right 2 million of jews was the greatly inflated and any court could easy refuse this number (as and the common number 6 millions of Holocoast) . I think this was becose Israel don't demand to judge many of nazi criminals like Bach-Zelewski.


USSR was a great supporter of new born Israel. Weapons and help was transferred easily. When Israel become more of an US ally, USSR gradually become Israel enemy and supported Arabs.
Digging into past was neither convenient for USSR and Israel...
Please, remember that countries may be at war, but their intelligence agencies are still talking in neutral countries...

Mate i hear about single war criminal who was deportered from US to the Israel for the court claim - Ivan Demijnchuk (nicknamed as Ivan Grozny). According official version he took part in the mass execution of jews in the Ukrain. But court couldn't prove his personal partisipation at the killing and .......Ivan Grozny was passed back to the US.


2. Polish communists always bent backwards to orders from Moscow. For them Warsaw Uprising and massacre of Warsaw civilians perpetrated by von dem Bach Zalewski was a topic to say, at least embarassing...
Uprising in Warsaw was in essence anti-soviet... Any publicity would again provoke question of Stalin's reaction to Warsaw mutiny.
It was much more convenient to promote rebuilding of Warsaw, than again disclose that Wola district massacres were Kaminski's and his Russian traitors job.

Indeed mate, USSR had't agreement with USA( or the other western country) for the givvin out the WW2 war criminals . Breznev wished to sign this agreement during his visit in USA ( it seems in 1971) with president J. Karter. But on political reasons ( from US side) Karter refused this agreement.
So till Gorbachev USSR hadn't any international rights to demand war criminals back.( as and Poland).
Therefore nazi criminals feels calm in US and Canada.
Just single case ( as i told) with Ivan Grozny was the exclusion.
But as i say not only USSR didn't demand the nazi criminals back, but also Israel. And Britain who promised the poles in 1944 to execute the Bach-Zelewski nothin did after the war.


Conclusion: Thousands or millions of victims are not important for politicians or governments. Doesn't matter who and when is involved

You know what i think, handrets of WW2 war criminals ( famouse and not) were live in Europe and in USA without any punishment for its atrosities.
Becouse it was unpossible to prove indeed.
So mate, may be we belive in Great Myth about mass atrocities of WW2.
Don't you think so if there are many of war criminals but nobody could prove it's guilt?

Chevan
11-20-2006, 04:29 AM
I wholeheartedly agree. People like Jochen Pieper got off with leniency for their massacres of Soviet citizens. I'm not positive, but I believe US prosecutors tried to factor in these murders and posed the killings of US POWs as something of a symbolic event that would lead to a greater justice. I know at his trial, Pieper's "Blowtorch Battalion" antics were mentioned often. But unfortunately, he ended up being granted leniency (only 11-years in Prison!) because of several missteps by the prosecution as his death sentence was commuted to life in prison. To this day, I wonder who actually killed him in 1976? Rumors abound that he was assassinated by the KGB, US war veterans, or veterans of the French Mache (resistance)..

And thank you for this thread Chevan, Nazi atrocities against the unarmed men, women, and children of the former Soviet Union need to be spoken of more often...
Thanks Nickdfresh.
Yes i know about cases of killing the WW2 war criminals who lived in the west.
Also i remember when Mossad had steal from the western state ( don't remember which) one famouse nazi criminal for the court in the Israel, but could deliver and just shoot him.


Cheers.

Digger
11-20-2006, 05:06 AM
Based on his study of SS and Reich Foreign Ministry records American historian Raul Hilberg has arrived at a figure of 900,000 Soviet Jews eliminated. The country most decimated of it's Jewish population was Poland with some three million exterminated. These figures were scrupuously recorded by the SS.

Figures for the number of Slavs murdered by the Nazi's varies widely with figures ranging from one to two million. Had the war been won by Hitler the biggest mass extermination of a race would have begun with the planned murder of thirty to fifty million slavs.

Regards to all,
Digger.

Chevan
11-21-2006, 04:39 AM
These figures were scrupuously recorded by the SS.

Indeed dear Digger there're no any records of SS in nature. If it really was - the handrets of such criminals like Bach-Zelewski would hang immediatelly after the war. The figure 900 000 of killed jews has not relation to the reality becouse about 80% of soviet jews were evacuated from the Ukraine and Belorussia in 1941-42. The exception were the those cities which Stalin ordered don't evacuate like Kiev ( to stop the panic of civilians). As the resault practically all of the Kiev's jewish population were captured by the germans who inmmediatelly begin the public executions ( Babi yar massacre). In Kiev were killed at least 20-30 000 jews since 1941-43.
The total percent population of jews in the USSR till the WW2 was 2,1-2,5% i.e. about 5 million - the biggest jewish community in the world at that period.They lived mostly in cities ( 75%) in western and central part of USSR.
As i said some big cities like Kiev were captured so quick ( becouse german Barbarossa was successful) that all the jewish population were in germans hands. But another cities like Harkov were evacuated very quick and jews were first who run away.
In common in the german zone of occupation were no more 500 000 jews mostly from the rural. The total number of killind in former USSR was about 150 000 - 200 000. Other part ( about 200 000) were deported to the concentration camps in Eastern europe. It's fate unknown but many of them perished. The litle part of jews about 20-30 000 joined to the partisants in Belorussian and Ukrainian forests.
After the liberation of USSR from the germans many of jews come back to the Ukrain , Belorussia , Moldavia and Baltic.
Despite of the common view after the WW2 the jewish population of USSR in increased in per cent. For instance if till the war in Moldavia lived 2.7% of jews then in the begining of 1950y already 3% i.e. the native Moldova nation suffer more then jews. The simular picture was and in the Ukrain ( excetp its western part where till end of 1950 "forest brothers" fought agains the soviet) after the war the jewish population were quickly restored.


Figures for the number of Slavs murdered by the Nazi's varies widely with figures ranging from one to two million. Had the war been won by Hitler the biggest mass extermination of a race would have begun with the planned murder of thirty to fifty million slavs.
.
Yes Digger the so called plan "Ost" - the forced limitation of slav population of former USSR to 30-50 millions. As the main condition of this plan was the dividing of Russia to the many litle states hostinity to the each other . Already in "Main Kampf" Hitler told about "Eastern lands" which was nessesary for the life space of master race.
The exact figure of slavs who were murdered in ww2 unknown today. Just it's known from the german sources about 4 million of soviet POWs. The total mortality since 1941 till 45 was about 60% (!!!!) i.e. about 2 million of POWs died. (For the compare the mortality in german POWs in soviet camps was abot 15% from the 1944-1953).
The number of perished civil population of USSR were enormous. This was as the resaul of direct assault of german war activity ( bombing the cities and artillery fire) but the worst was the German policy in occuped territory.
The tactic of supression were extremaly unhuman. German used the native colloborationists in police. The cruelty of this "police" sometimes wondered even SS.
The atrocities of germans on the East had began from the speech of Hitler 30 march of 1941 when he demanded from 250 high german officers to be extremaly merciless to the east population.
Despite to the tupical point in East were guilt of atrocities not only SS zonder command and policai but and wermaht soldiers. The german historian
Wette Wolfram in his work :"Wermacht and Holocaust" told about a lot of cases of mass executions of jews and sowiet POWs by the wermacht troops.
The "lovely" methods of fight with partisans was also ferocious.
The common practice in the occuped territories was to take the slav civils in hostages and then shoot them for every killed german soldiers.
It was a special SS order - to kill 50 communist for every german soldier killed by partisans. Don't need to be the genius to understand that "50 communist"
means 50 women ,children and old mans.
There're a lot of cases when germans "saved the ammunition" and simply knoked the peoples into shed and burned them.
They made it everywhere . For instance Odessa germans and romanians burned a lot of Jews and soviets POWs.
The one of the most cynical and famouse mass burning of peoples was in the Belorussain villige Khatyn ( don't confuse it with Katyn) where 23 march of 1943 were burned 149 jewish families together with children ( most little was just 2 y.o.).http://www.khatyn.by/
Becouse of simular methods the victims of civil opulation in USSR was the awful.

Cheers.

Digger
11-21-2006, 05:42 AM
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong on this call. Was not the number of German servicemen released from Soviet captivity in 1955, something like just ten thousand men? If true this would make Chevan's statistic of only 15% seriously underestimated.

SS records on the number of Jews eliminated were exceptionally accurate and meticulous in their recording. As there was an element of anti Jewish sentiment by the Soviet government I would question claims contrary to German records.

While the men of the Heer were implicated in the massacres on the Eastern Front, much of this was part of the plan of implication by Hitler, Himmler and the SS. When Einsatzgruppen were carrying out liquidation operations they often gang pressed soldiers from the nearest units to carry out executions.

Regards to all, Digger.

Lancer44
11-21-2006, 06:15 AM
Well, Chevan has got some valid points...

Just after September 1939 in Poland, one "crazy cavalry major", Henryk Dobrzanski "Hubal", went into underground with two squadrons of cavalry. Well armed, with plenty of ammo and obvious support from local population, he and his unit survived until April 1940.
It is true that he become a legend... He and his soldiers. But his way become a death track for civilians. Germans followed them and any village which gave them food or even just hay for the horses, was burned to the ground and inhabitants killed.

AND ACCORDING TO GENEVA AND HAGUE CONVENTIONS GERMANS WERE RIGHT.... They could do this legally...

"Hubal" Dobrzanski was many times asked by legal Polish authorities to disband his unit ... he refused.
His actions brought many thousands of civilian victims...

So what about Stalin's "partisans war"?
In Ukraine and Belaruss such war was a fact.
And I don't think that victims of that war were 100% Jewish...

So, let's look at war as it was, without propaganda bias. German forces were responsible for killing many Ukrainian and Belarussian civilians, which had nothing to do with the Jews. They just gave some food for partisans or let them sleep in the barn or just not reported their existence to German authorities.

AND THEY WERE PROSECUTED AND KILLED

So, why they are counted as Holocaust Jews?

Just my humble question...

Chevan
11-22-2006, 12:13 AM
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong on this call. Was not the number of German servicemen released from Soviet captivity in 1955, something like just ten thousand men? If true this would make Chevan's statistic of only 15% seriously underestimated.

OK Digger, i'll correct you ;)
According to the Russian State Departmant Archive of historical documents of NKVD-MVD USSR about german POWs in Gulag and other camps:
During the war till 1945 in the soviet camps got 2 388 433 germans POWs
It were freed from the captivity and repatriated 2 031 743 POWs for the period 1949-1955.
It were perished for the different reasons - 356 182 POWs. Mortality (14.9%)

I think you mean the latest part of freed germans POWs , which were released to the germany in 1955 - "just ten thousand men".



SS records on the number of Jews eliminated were exceptionally accurate and meticulous in their recording. As there was an element of anti Jewish sentiment by the Soviet government I would question claims contrary to German records.

So where are those SS records? Could you show me the source please?
And what do you mean as "anti Jewish sentiment by the Soviet government "?
May be you don't know that till 1951 Soviet gov was pro-jewish.

Cheers

Chevan
11-22-2006, 01:37 AM
Well, Chevan has got some valid points...

Just after September 1939 in Poland, one "crazy cavalry major", Henryk Dobrzanski "Hubal", went into underground with two squadrons of cavalry. Well armed, with plenty of ammo and obvious support from local population, he and his unit survived until April 1940.
It is true that he become a legend... He and his soldiers. But his way become a death track for civilians. Germans followed them and any village which gave them food or even just hay for the horses, was burned to the ground and inhabitants killed.

I never hear about Henryk Dobrzanski , thanks mate.


So what about Stalin's "partisans war"?
In Ukraine and Belaruss such war was a fact.
And I don't think that victims of that war were 100% Jewish...
This is the point.
Certainly pertisans made the life of civilians more danger and in the East where the germans were free from any human rules.
But.......
You know the Ukraine and Belorussia had the powerful partisan movenment in 1941-43.


The effectiveness of the war shooting of partisans was such, that the commander-in-chief of guarding forces and the chief of the administrative area of army group "center" general von Shenkendorf forced was on 16 April, 1942, to report to commander the army group "center" of von Klyuge : "is completely obvious the enormous danger, which arose at the present time as a result of actions of partisans".
More specifically presented the created situation another Hitler officer, Wolfgang Fiedler, who reported to his authorities: "on the wide spaces rule partisans, having its own government and control. They everywhere in the rear of our troops and next to the front. It is difficult to create itself accurate idea about the local conditions. Explosions on the railroads and other communications, acts of sabotage in all existing enterprises do not descend from the agenda

In summer 1943 partisans were counted about 250 000 mens and they controlled is over half ot territory of Belorussia and 1/4 of Ukraine. Germans was forced to use of 10-15% ot tropps from the East simply to protect the communications. But much danger for the germans was the strategical interaction of partisans and Red Army.
During the Soviet strategic offensive of summer 1943 (during the Kursk battle)peartisans began the famouse "Railway war". During short perion were more then 400 explosions on the importaint railway station and bridges made the german communication practically parallized.


the transportation officer of army group "center" G. Teske wrote: "are discovered two new methods of the fight of partisans. On 22 July, 1943, partisans completed mainly on supply lines of group the "south", south of Bryansk, mass explosions with number to 500. This was operational measure, since section farmstead Mikhajlovsk - the Bryansk, extremely necessary for the supply of divisions at the front, as a result of 430 explosions was precisely at the critical moments paralyzed
http://www.bryanskobl.ru/~pab/partisan/events.php?category=48


So there're many who colloborate with germans but the many people who fight with germans in the rear.

Cheers.

Lancer44
11-22-2006, 02:34 AM
Chevan, you misunderstood me. I agree with you, that partisans were very strong. But in many cases Germans followed them burning villages which either supported partisans or just had a bad luck that partisans were close or blow nearby railway line etc.
Such pacifications had nothing to do with sonderkommandos chasing Jews.

This is what I meant.

Chevan
11-22-2006, 06:26 AM
Chevan, you misunderstood me. I agree with you, that partisans were very strong. But in many cases Germans followed them burning villages which either supported partisans or just had a bad luck that partisans were close or blow nearby railway line etc.
Such pacifications had nothing to do with sonderkommandos chasing Jews.

This is what I meant.
Well, sorry mate :)
Sure you right , the lot of mass killing of civils in the East had nothing relation to the Holocaust.

Digger
11-23-2006, 04:29 AM
The treatment of POW's by all sides has a more sinister undercurrent. Little known are the deaths of 167,000 German POW's in French captivity, or the estimated 68,000 German prisoners who died from deliberate starvation in American camps.

These pale in contrast to the millions of Soviet prisoners who died in German captivity, whether they were worked or starved to death, or shot soon after capture, the Ponary massacre a prime example. Similarly Soviet citizens suffered horribly under German occupation and the death toll of these people may never be known.

While the 'official' death toll of Jews is put at 6,000,000, there will always be conjecture as to the exact figure. Professor Raul Hilberg's exhaustive study of SS records arrives at a figure of 5,100,000 Jews being eliminated. The missing 900,000 figure may very well be other civilian executions which may/may not have been lumped under an overall figure.

There are similar discrepencies in Soviet figures. Your figure of 2,388,433 German POW's is very close to other sources, but there are higher figures quoted for the number of German prisoners who died in Soviet captivity, as there are still some 480,000 unaccounted for German prisoners according to the Russian archive at Podolsk. Part of the problem lays with the long held belief most of the still reported as missing 700, 000 German prisoners had been in Soviet captivity. Clearly these figures are incorrect, but where does the discrepency lie?

Can there be a similar discrepency in your figures of Jews killed in the former Soviet Union by German forces? Document 2273-PS compiled by SS Major General Stahlecker for Heinrich Himmler reports 229,052 Jews shot in five months of operations from June 1941.

My apology for my earlier misquote of 10,000 men. Cause-fading memory and a lack of caffeine.:shock:

Regards to all,
Digger.

Chevan
11-23-2006, 07:32 AM
There are similar discrepencies in Soviet figures. Your figure of 2,388,433 German POW's is very close to other sources, but there are higher figures quoted for the number of German prisoners who died in Soviet captivity, as there are still some 480,000 unaccounted for German prisoners according to the Russian archive at Podolsk. Part of the problem lays with the long held belief most of the still reported as missing 700, 000 German prisoners had been in Soviet captivity. Clearly these figures are incorrect, but where does the discrepency lie?

The Central archive of Russian Defence Ministry in Podolsk has no relation to the german prisoners , dear Digger. In 1947 here was sended for the keepeng the cuptured German card index of soviet POWs in germans camps.
German POWs were in GULAG and the NKVD was responsible for the prisoners.
Just NKVD archive contain the information about POWs in soviet territory.
According "Report at the session of the association of the historians of World War II" 29.12.1998 by the professor Krivosheev G.F.
http://www.safety.spbstu.ru/book/hrono/hrono/statii/2003/krivosh.html
it was established the lates figures about Germans POWs in the USSR.
Total number (in 1945) - 2 389 560
Died in camp since (1945-1953) - 356 700 ,
died on the deportation points and in the way to the camps - 93 900 .
Total death - 460 000.
Mortality for all the period about 16%.
In difference of NKVD germans hadn't not accurate statistic of death of soviet POW ( becouse it was "low race")


Can there be a similar discrepency in your figures of Jews killed in the former Soviet Union by German forces? Document 2273-PS compiled by SS Major General Stahlecker for Heinrich Himmler reports 229,052 Jews shot in five months of operations from June 1941.

What's mean "shot"? Are you sure it means killing?
Becouse in german orders were often used term of "decision" to the jews not only as killing but also as deportation too.


My apology for my earlier misquote of 10,000 men. Cause-fading memory and a lack of caffeine.:shock:

Be carefull with caffeine ;) save the health


Cheers.

Nickdfresh
11-23-2006, 03:21 PM
...
SS records on the number of Jews eliminated were exceptionally accurate and meticulous in their recording. As there was an element of anti Jewish sentiment by the Soviet government I would question claims contrary to German records.

There is little question in this. Some Holocaust deniers such as Irving will state that these documents are questionable because they do not implicitly state that Jews were "killed" methodically. But the euphemistic language of "evacuation" is chilling and unquestionably tells of mass-extermination (the Nazis knew that one way or another, history was going to examine their official documents, so they used semantic subterfuge). I imagine this also applies to documents relating to German efforts to "pacify" areas behind the lines via reprisal murders, especially where there was significant Soviet-Partisan activity..


While the men of the Heer were implicated in the massacres on the Eastern Front, much of this was part of the plan of implication by Hitler, Himmler and the SS. When Einsatzgruppen were carrying out liquidation operations they often gang pressed soldiers from the nearest units to carry out executions.

Regards to all, Digger.

Clearly, great thought was given to this. Indeed, it is because of the extreme brutality of these methods that often shocked and abhorred the "ideologically impure" men who were ordered to carry them out (average German soldiers fighting in the Wehrmacht), and this was the reason why the Concentration Camps were transformed into Death Camps...

Nickdfresh
11-23-2006, 03:41 PM
The treatment of POW's by all sides has a more sinister undercurrent. Little known are the deaths of 167,000 German POW's in French captivity, or the estimated 68,000 German prisoners who died from deliberate starvation in American camps...

Digger, I've never heard numbers approaching anywhere near this, at least in the U.S. The common complaint is that the US Army treated German EPOWs far too nicely (they were paid volunteer laborers in many cases!). There was no "deliberate starvation" in American or Canadian hands. The War was far less personal here. Certainly, if Germany had invaded the US and had raised villages, killing their occupants like they did in the USSR, then the treatment of German POWs by Americans certainly would have been far worse. Many German POWs actually settled in the US after the War and became citizens.


These pale in contrast to the millions of Soviet prisoners who died in German captivity, whether they were worked or starved to death, or shot soon after capture, the Ponary massacre a prime example. Similarly Soviet citizens suffered horribly under German occupation and the death toll of these people may never be known.

While the 'official' death toll of Jews is put at 6,000,000, there will always be conjecture as to the exact figure. Professor Raul Hilberg's exhaustive study of SS records arrives at a figure of 5,100,000 Jews being eliminated. The missing 900,000 figure may very well be other civilian executions which may/may not have been lumped under an overall figure.

There are similar discrepencies in Soviet figures. Your figure of 2,388,433 German POW's is very close to other sources, but there are higher figures quoted for the number of German prisoners who died in Soviet captivity, as there are still some 480,000 unaccounted for German prisoners according to the Russian archive at Podolsk. Part of the problem lays with the long held belief most of the still reported as missing 700, 000 German prisoners had been in Soviet captivity. Clearly these figures are incorrect, but where does the discrepency lie?

Can there be a similar discrepency in your figures of Jews killed in the former Soviet Union by German forces? Document 2273-PS compiled by SS Major General Stahlecker for Heinrich Himmler reports 229,052 Jews shot in five months of operations from June 1941.

My apology for my earlier misquote of 10,000 men. Cause-fading memory and a lack of caffeine.:shock:

Regards to all,
Digger.

BTW, many of the Jews murdered in the Soviet Union by the Einsatzgruppen were not counted in the overall Holocaust death-figures...

Nickdfresh
11-23-2006, 03:44 PM
I would like to throw this figure out: 20-30 million Soviet deaths due to combat, reprisal murders, starvation, disease, forced labor, etc. Is this the death figure that most Russians were taught was their loss in the War? --The 20-30 million figure is what I have been led to believe. Is this correct?

Digger
11-23-2006, 03:56 PM
Total number of Soviet deaths under the orders of Stalin are often quoted as 20 million, with some sources claiming as high as 43 million deaths. Claim and counter claim, it is all very difficult to verify.

The one thing that does not need verification however is that Stalin is the world's greatest mass murderer.

Regards to all,
Digger.

Nickdfresh
11-23-2006, 04:17 PM
Total number of Soviet deaths under the orders of Stalin are often quoted as 20 million, with some sources claiming as high as 43 million deaths. Claim and counter claim, it is all very difficult to verify.

The one thing that does not need verification however is that Stalin is the world's greatest mass murderer.

Regards to all,
Digger.

I was speaking in regards to deaths as a result of the German invasion...

But yes, Stalin was a c*nt.

Digger
11-23-2006, 08:37 PM
Very descriptive Nickdfresh:rolleyes:

The question of the final Soviet death toll is not an easy one to answer. For a long time 20 million has been the accepted figure, but in recent times there has been speculation the figure could have been as high as the 30 million quoted.

I'm sure Chevan would be able to throw further light on this one.

Regards to all,
Digger.

Digger
11-24-2006, 06:42 AM
The Document 2273-PS specifically states the Jewish victims were shot, This was the preferred method of execution by the Einsatzgruppen at that time.

Regards to all,
Digger.

Gen. Sandworm
11-24-2006, 10:20 AM
Very descriptive Nickdfresh:rolleyes:

The question of the final Soviet death toll is not an easy one to answer. For a long time 20 million has been the accepted figure, but in recent times there has been speculation the figure could have been as high as the 30 million quoted.

I'm sure Chevan would be able to throw further light on this one.

Regards to all,
Digger.

Im sure the Russians dont even know for sure. When you dealing with that many people its hard to keep up with. Just look at the amount of MIA on the American side where the amount of KIA's is 40-60 times less than the Russians. Thats just soldiers. The civilians would be even harder to keep up with. Ive yet to meet a Russian (well ones that I talked to ww2 about) that didnt have a family member envolved or lost in the war.

Digger
11-24-2006, 02:32 PM
Good points General. While we say certain official sources are accurate, there will always be discrepencies for a variety of reasons.

This is why there are question marks over the final entire death toll of the war. I don't think there will ever be an accurate figure, especially with the civilian death tolls, remembering official census figures(if a country conducted a census)were very rubbery indeed.

Regards to all,
Digger.

Nickdfresh
11-24-2006, 03:57 PM
Very descriptive Nickdfresh:rolleyes:

...

Regards to all,
Digger.


Sorry mate, didn't mean to offend you.


Cheers http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/images/smilies/smilie/brownbag.gif

Digger
11-24-2006, 04:25 PM
:cool: Mate, you didn't offend me at all. You summed it all up in one word, though I reckon I could have added a lot more expletives to describe the man.;)

Regards to all,
Digger.

Chevan
11-27-2006, 03:45 AM
Total number of Soviet deaths under the orders of Stalin are often quoted as 20 million, with some sources claiming as high as 43 million deaths. Claim and counter claim, it is all very difficult to verify.

The one thing that does not need verification however is that Stalin is the world's greatest mass murderer.

Regards to all,
Digger.
Well Digger this is very tupical mistake ( i'll say for the propoganda purposes)
about 20/40/60 of Stalin order's victims.
According population census of 1926 in the USSR lived 147 013 600.
Next census was in the 1939 the total population 170 600 000.
Since 1926 till 1939 the territory of USSR had no changes. Hance the number of total population was the resault of demography.
If the victims of Stalin's policy really were about 20 million this necessarily would be reflected in the census.
Indeed the mass terror had place in 1918-1923 ( So called Big Red Terror)
The population of former Russian Impire (without Poland, Finland and Baltic states) was decreased over 10 million. This was the DIRECT RESAULT OF Civil war and Red Terror which was unleashed by Bolsheviks leaders like Trockij-Bernshtain & Co.
Certainly Stalins terror was cruel but not Stalin invented the GULAG.

Cheers.

Digger
11-27-2006, 04:46 AM
All I was quoting were the figures bandied about by so many sources. Are these figures accurate? I doubt it and we'll probably never know Chevan. Census figures of the time, no matter which country, were notoriously inaccurate, which would make any claims on death tolls extremely difficult to substantiate.

Regards to all,
Digger.

Chevan
11-27-2006, 05:20 AM
Im sure the Russians dont even know for sure. When you dealing with that many people its hard to keep up with. Just look at the amount of MIA on the American side where the amount of KIA's is 40-60 times less than the Russians. Thats just soldiers. The civilians would be even harder to keep up with. Ive yet to meet a Russian (well ones that I talked to ww2 about) that didnt have a family member envolved or lost in the war.
Indeed Gen. Sandworm there is no any exact number of total victims of WW2.
It's true, practically any russian famaly has a ancestor who died or was killed during WW2. One of my grandfather perished in 1942.
The latest documentally confirmed figure of russian historians - 26,6 millions total lost of USSR. Absolut majority was killed but not all...
In this number was just 8 668 400 soldiers and officers all of Red Army.
The giants number of civils population death about 16 millions was the direct resault of Nazi henocide to the native people of USSR. About 5 million slavs were forcibly exported in to Germany as the slaves. Many perished but other essential part come back to the USSR in 1945 or had stay in the West.

Cheers.

Chevan
11-27-2006, 05:36 AM
All I was quoting were the figures bandied about by so many sources. Are these figures accurate? I doubt it and we'll probably never know Chevan. Census figures of the time, no matter which country, were notoriously inaccurate, which would make any claims on death tolls extremely difficult to substantiate.

Regards to all,
Digger.

Dear Digger, certainly this figures could be inaccurate in certain extent but you must to agree that 20 million ( common of 170 million of population) this is not needle in the haystack. You cann't simply lose 20 millions mostly of mens population from total men population of USSR was 80 millions.
This is must be the seriouse demographic problem like it was after WW2.
But till 1941 the population of the USSR constantly increased becouse Stalin'e repressions touched just a small part of population of USSR no more 5%.

Cheers.

Chevan
11-27-2006, 06:06 AM
Back to the topic gentlemens.
Do somebody know something about Ivan Groznj.
http://i.podrobnosti.ua/upload/news/2005/12/29/274542_3.jpg


Law court in THE USA decreed, that John Demijanyuk, accused in the fact that he worked as overseer in the concentration camp during World War II, must be deported into the Ukraine.
Judge Maikl Kreppi rejected the statements of that accused, who considers that in the case of its delivery to Ukrainian authorities it will be subjected to tortures.
John (in the past - Ivan) Demijnyuk, 85 years, in 2002 it was deprived of American citizenship - then law court considered, that there are proofs of the fact that Demijnyuk during the World War II worked as guard in several Nazi concentration camps. "Ivan Groznj" Demijnyuk, which already almost 30 years carries on a struggle for that in order to remain in THE USA, it denies all presented to it charges. Ukrainian obtained right to the entrance in THE USA in 1951 after he stated that it served in the Red Army, but it was undertaken into the captivity in the Crimea and the large part of the war it sat through in the camp as the prisoner of war. For the first time charges in the accomplishment of military crimes were advanced against it in 1977. In 1981 Demijnyuk already lost the citizenship: law court arrived at the conclusion that it lay about its military past. Demijnyuk, was said in the verdict, it served in the concentration camp of Treblinka in Poland, where it they knew under the nickname "Ivan Groznj".
Demijnyuk declared, that it were located in the camp as the prisoner. However, law court in 2002 established that it worked as guard in the camps of Sobibor, Maydanek and Flossenburg, where were destroyed hundreds of thousands people. After the loss of its American citizenship he was sented to Israel, where it was judged and in 1988 it was sentenced to the death punishment.
However, verdict was annulled five years by the later Supreme Court of Israel, at disposal of which entered the evidence about the fact that "Ivan Groznj" could be another Ukrainian. Demijnyuk returned to THE USA, and one of the judges revoked the decision of the Ministry of Justice and restored its citizenship.

Was the Demijnyuk and "Ivan Groznj" the same face?

FW-190 Pilot
12-08-2006, 04:22 AM
talking about nazi criminal, how about those who worked for the American government and never get charged for the crime. Some of them even worked as double agent to serve both america and soviet union.

Chevan
12-08-2006, 04:56 AM
talking about nazi criminal, how about those who worked for the American government and never get charged for the crime. Some of them even worked as double agent to serve both america and soviet union.
I have to conclude that absence of any moral principle of different intelligence and secret cervices which take to the work of such "professionals" with Nazi past. I think this amoral and abominably.
What's the sense to blame nazi for atrocities and give them the "work" at the same time.

Cheers.

Chevan
12-08-2006, 04:59 AM
Do somebody know something about Nazi officers who run away after the war to the Near East ( Egypt and Syria)?

Lancer44
12-08-2006, 06:27 AM
Do somebody know something about Nazi officers who run away after the war to the Near East ( Egypt and Syria)?

Not much about them...
I suppose that they run complex intelligence network...

Chevan
12-12-2006, 02:15 AM
Not much about them...
I suppose that they run complex intelligence network...
I mean nazi like Aloise Brunner -former consentration camps servicemen who run into Syria after the war.

Gen. Sandworm
12-12-2006, 05:31 AM
I mean nazi like Aloise Brunner -former consentration camps servicemen who run into Syria after the war.

He is believed to still be in Syria. Or he could just be dead. The Syrians claim no knowledge of him.