Modelling work of Strina Croatia.

[Strina-Croatia]

So i hawe to thank first Hg for uploading some pictures and helping me !Thanks!So hier is my masterpice for now a russian counter attack near Stalingrad hope you like it ;)

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n45/strina1/Sasprijedaruska.jpg



And one more from up

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n45/strina1/saboka.jpg


Please fell free to comment weather you like it or not

[ww2admin]

That's fantastic!

[Chevan]

Hi Croatia.
Nice work, i like it.
What's the scale of figures and models did you use?
Look the diorams at my favorite page
http://www.interdacom.ru/~tanks/index.htm

[Strina-Croatia]

They are wery big my scale is 1:35 and i am making another recreation of a movie a will post it when i finish;)

[Firefly]

Very nice mate, I see your skill increases with time.

[PLT.SGT.BAKER]

Man thats a masterpeice right there! Its a beaut!

[Gen. Sandworm]

Good job!

Have a bit off topic question........In the US we reinact civil war battles all the time. And i could of swore i heard once about a ww2 reinactment battle on quite a large scale...(not for a movie)...does anyone know anything about these and where they are held?

[Strina-Croatia]

I will upload some pistures of that particular reinacment i use them for documentation i will place it under Us military thank you everyone for compliments

[George Eller]

-

Saddam Hussein Sentenced to Die for Crimes Against Humanity
Fox News

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,227574,00.html

Sunday, November 05, 2006

BAGHDAD, Iraq — Saddam Hussein, the iron-fisted dictator who ruled Iraq for nearly a quarter of a century, was found guilty of crimes against humanity Sunday and sentenced to death by hanging.

The so-called Butcher of Baghdad, who was president of Iraq from 1979 until he was deposed by Coalition forces in April 2003, was convicted of the 1982 killings of 148 Shiites in the city of Dujail.

The visibly shaken former leader shouted "God is great!" as Iraq's High Tribunal announced his sentence.

Saddam's half brother and former intelligence chief Barzan Ibrahim, and Awad Hamed al-Bandar, head of the former Revolutionary Court, were sentenced to join Saddam on the gallows for the Dujail killings after an unsuccessful assassination attempt during a Saddam visit to the city 35 miles north of Baghdad.

Click here to go to FOXNews.com's Iraq Center.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/iraq/index.html

The trial brought Saddam and his co-defendants before their accusers in what was one of the most highly publicized and heavily reported trials of its kind since the Nuremberg tribunals for members of Adolf Hitler's Nazi regime and its slaughter of 6 million Jews in the World War II Holocaust

"The verdict placed on the heads of the former regime does not represent a verdict for any one person. It is a verdict on a whole dark era that has was unmatched in Iraq's history," said Nouri al-Maliki, Iraq's Shiite prime minister.

Some feared the court decision could exacerbate the sectarian violence that has pushed the country to the brink of civil war, after a trial that stretched over nine months in 39 sessions and ended nearly 3 1/2 months ago. The verdict came two days before midterm elections in the United States widely seen as a referendum on the Bush administration's policy in Iraq. U.S. and Iraqi officials have denied the timing was deliberate.

The White House praised the Iraqi judicial system and denied the U.S. had been "scheming" for the verdict.

"The president thinks it’s an important moment for the Iraqi people," White House Press Secretary Tony Snow told FOX News.

Iraqis "are the ones who conducted the trial. The Iraqi judges are the ones who spent all the time pouring over the evidence. ... It's important to give them credit for running their own government," Snow said.

In north Baghdad's heavily Sunni Azamiyah district, clashes broke out between police and gunmen. Elsewhere in the capital, celebratory gunfire rang out.

"This government will be responsible for the consequences, with the deaths of hundreds, thousands or even hundreds of thousands, whose blood will be shed," Salih al-Mutlaq, a Sunni political leader, told the Al-Arabiya satellite television station.

Saddam and his seven co-defendants were on trial for a wave of revenge killings carried out in the city of Dujail following a 1982 assassination attempt on the former dictator. Al-Maliki's Islamic Dawa party, then an underground opposition, has claimed responsibility for organizing the attempt on Saddam's life.

In the streets of Dujail, people celebrated and burned pictures of their former tormentor as the verdict was read.

Saddam's chief lawyer Khalil al-Dulaimi condemned the trial as a "farce," claiming the verdict was planned. He said defense attorneys would appeal within 30 days.

The death sentences automatically go to a nine-judge appeals panel, which has unlimited time to review the case. If the verdicts and sentences are upheld, the executions must be carried out within 30 days.

A court official told The Associated Press that the appeals process was likely to take three to four weeks once the formal paperwork was submitted.

During Sunday's hearing, Saddam initially refused the chief judge's order to rise; two bailiffs pulled the ousted ruler to his feet and he remained standing through the sentencing, sometimes wagging his finger at the judge.

Before the session began, one of Saddam's lawyers, former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark, was ejected from the courtroom after handing the judge a memorandum in which he called the trial a travesty.

Chief Judge Raouf Abdul-Rahman pointed to Clark and said in English, "Get out."

In addition to the former Iraqi dictator and Barzan Ibrahim, his former intelligence chief and half brother, the Iraqi High Tribunal convicted and sentenced Awad Hamed al-Bandar, the head of Iraq's former Revolutionary Court, to death by hanging. Iraq's former Vice President Taha Yassin Ramadan was convicted of premeditated murder and sentenced to life in prison.

Three defendants were sentenced to 15 years in prison for torture and premeditated murder. Abdullah Kazim Ruwayyid and his son Mizhar Abdullah Ruwayyid were party officials Dujail, along with Ali Dayih Ali. They were believed responsible for the Dujail arrests.

Mohammed Azawi Ali, a former Dujail Baath Party official, was acquitted for lack of evidence and immediately freed.

He faces additional charges in a separate case over an alleged massacre of Kurdish civilians — a trial that will continue while appeals are pending.

The guilty verdict is likely to enrage hard-liners among Saddam's fellow Sunnis, who made up the bulk of the former ruling class. The country's majority Shiites were persecuted under the former leader but now largely control the government.

Al-Dulaimi, Saddam's lawyer, told AP his client called on Iraqis to reject sectarian violence and called on them to refrain from taking revenge on U.S. invaders.

"His message to the Iraqi people was 'pardon and do not take revenge on the invading nations and their people'," al-Dulaimi said, quoting Saddam. "The president also asked his countrymen to 'unify in the face of sectarian strife."'

In Tikrit, Saddam's hometown, 1,000 people defied the curfew and carried pictures of the city's favorite son through the streets. Some declared the court a product of the U.S. "occupation forces" and condemned the verdict.

"By our souls, by our blood we sacrifice for you Saddam" and "Saddam your name shakes America."

U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad issued a statement saying the verdicts "demonstrate the commitment of the Iraqi people to hold them [Saddam and his co-defendants] accountable."

"Although the Iraqis may face difficult days in the coming weeks, closing the book on Saddam and his regime is an opportunity to unite and build a better future," Khalilzad said.

Two U.S. officials who worked as advisers to the court on matters of international judicial procedures said Saddam's repeated outbursts during the trial may have played a key part in his conviction.

They cited his admission in a March 1 hearing that he had ordered the trial of 148 Shiites who were eventually executed, insisting that doing so was legal because they were suspected in the assassination attempt against him. "Where is the crime? Where is the crime?" he asked, standing before the panel of five judges.

Later in the same session, he argued that he was in charge and he alone must be tried. His outburst came a day after the prosecution presented a presidential decree with a signature they said was Saddam's approval for the Dujail death sentences, their most direct evidence against him.

About 50 of those sentenced by the "Revolutionary Court" died during interrogation before they could go to the gallows. Some of those hanged were children.

"Every time they [defendants] rose and spoke, they provided a lot of incriminating evidence," said one of the U.S. officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the subject.

Under Saddam, Iraq's bureaucracy showed a consistent tendency to document orders, policies and minutes of meetings. One document gave the names of everyone from Dujail banished to a desert detention camp in southern Iraq. Another, prepared by an aide to Saddam, gave the president a detailed account of the punitive measures against the people of Dujail.

Saddam's trial had from the outset appeared to reflect the turmoil and violence in Iraq since the 2003 U.S.-led invasion.

One of Saddam's lawyers was assassinated the day after the trial's opening session last year. Two more were later assassinated and a fourth fled the country.

In January, chief judge Rizgar Amin, a Kurd, resigned after complaints by Shiite politicians that he had failed to keep control of court proceedings. He, in turn, complained of political interference. Abdul-Rahman, another Kurd, replaced Amin.

Hearings were disrupted by outbursts from Saddam and Ibrahim, with the two raging against what they said was the illegitimacy of the court, their ill treatment in the U.S.-run facility where they are being held and the lack of protection for their lawyers.

The defense lawyers contributed to the chaos in the courtroom by staging several boycotts.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

-

[PLT.SGT.BAKER]

I feel sorry for him.

[George Eller]

I feel sorry for him.
-

:)

-

[pdf27]

The visibly shaken former leader shouted "God is great!" as Iraq's High Tribunal announced his sentence.
I love it how people suddenly become religious when about to be punished for crimes they committed without a thought to what God might think of their actions.

Incidentally, apparently he still believes that the US is going to withdraw and put him back in power. Can't see it happening myself.

[mike M.]

I think his hands should be bound behind his back and then thrown off a high roof, it was a way he often used to kill, so he must approve of it. I don't feel sorry for him at all. ;)

[George Eller]

I love it how people suddenly become religious when about to be punished for crimes they committed without a thought to what God might think of their actions.

Incidentally, apparently he still believes that the US is going to withdraw and put him back in power. Can't see it happening myself.

I don't think he was what you could call a righteous man. If he eventually makes that trip to the gallows, I guess he'll find out what God thinks of his actions.

I don't see the US putting him back in power either. I just wonder what effect his hanging will have on the insurrectionists.

I think his hands should be bound behind his back and then thrown off a high roof, it was a way he often used to kill, so he must approve of it. I don't feel sorry for him at all. ;)

Nor I :)

-

Saddam Hussein
The Genocide Of The Iraqi People Under Saddam Hussein Is Directly Connected To
Amin Al-Husseini, Grand Mufti Of Jerusalem
http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/saddam_en.html

-

Biography of Saddam Hussein of Tikrit
http://www.iraqfoundation.org/research/bio.html

-

Saddam Hussein, nephew of Khayrallah Tulfah,
of the 1941 Pro-Nazi coup in Iraq
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/saddam.html

The current [former] leader of Iraq was born on April 28, 1937, in a small village of al-Auja near the town of Takrit. His early child hood was spent in a mud hut in a mostly Sunni Muslim part of Iraq, which is approximately (100) one-hundred miles north of Baghdad. Hussein's father, Hussein al-Majid, died or abandoned the family (according to who is reporting the story), within a short time of his birth. Accurate records are difficult to obtain in a country where Hussein's birthday is celebrated as a national holiday.

He was reared alone by his mother Subha, until she took a second husband, Ibrahim Hassan. Hassan, often said to have been brutal and a thief, was a sheepherder by profession and enlisted Saddam in his ventures. According to a former personal secretary of Hussein, his step father abused Saddam and sent him to steal chicken and sheep to be sold. This pattern continued until 1947 when, at the age of ten, he was allowed to move in with his mother's brother, Khayrallah Tulfah, in Baghdad.

In Baghdad, Hussein began to learn more than reading and writing. His tutor, Khayrallah had been "cashiered" from the Iraqi army for supporting a "Pro-Nazi" coup attempt that failed. Khayrallah's bitterness towards the British and imperialism, soon was transferred to Saddam. In fact, some confidants of Hussein point to his relationship with Tulfah as a turning point in his political awareness. To demonstrate Tulfah's importance to Hussein, he was later made Mayor of Baghdad under the Hussein regime. Saddam finished intermediate school (roughly the equivalent of 9th Grade) at the age of sixteen, and attempted to be admitted to the prestigious Baghdad Military Academy.

Unfortunately, his poor grades prevented him from doing so, and he became more deeply involved in political matters. In 1956, he participated in a non-successful coup attempt against the monarchy of King Faisal II. In 1957, he joined the Baath party, a radical nationalist movement. In 1958, a non-Baathist group of army officers succeeded in overthrowing the King. The group was led by General Abdul Qassim. In 1959, Saddam and a group of Baathist supporters attempted to assassinate Gen. Qassim by a day-light machine-gun attack. The attack was unsuccessful, but it helped to place Hussein in a leadership position in the Baathist movement and furthered the process of nationalist political indoctrination. After the attack, in which Hussein is slightly wounded, he fled to Syria. From Syria, he went to Cairo, Egypt where he would spend the next four (4) years.

-

The Nazi Background of Saddam Hussein
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/2/20/145726.shtml

At the time, Nasser, along with the Mufti himself, who resided in Cairo after the war and his conviction by the Nuremberg Tribunal of war crimes, was spearheading what was known as the Odessa Network, which facilitated the settlement of thousands of Nazi criminals in Egypt and elsewhere in the Arab world.

In 1962, Saddam married Sajidah Tulfah, the daughter of his uncle and mentor.

In 1963, after a successful coup by the Ba'ath Party against Qassim, Saddam triumphantly returned to Baghdad, where he assumed control of State Security. The Ba'ath seizure of power in Iraq was followed by firing squads and murder of political opponents reminiscent of Castro's seizure of Cuba.

Saddam was chief interrogator and torturer at the infamous Palace of the End, set up as a torture chamber under the auspices of State Security.

Saddam became absolute ruler in 1979 after assassinating over 20 leaders of his own party. He immediately proceeded to implement the Nazi vision of his uncle and the Mufti. In Iraq, Saddam annihilated his opponents and, using his absolute power, developed a personality cult around himself reminiscent of the Nazi Fuehrerprinzip.

Like the Nazis, who sought to implement a new social order based on socialist and nationalist principles, Saddam has sought to develop a united Arab order under his personal control. Imitating the example of Hitler, Saddam set up concentration camps and began to carry out a planned program of genocide against the Kurds.

-

[George Eller]

-

Saddam Hussein, Secrets of His Life and Leadership
An Interview with
Said K. Aburish
http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/6307/aburishsupfg3.png
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saddam/interviews/aburish.html

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saddam/interviews/aburish2.html

One of the re-occurring things in your book is the idea that he's imposed Stalinism on a tribal society. What do you actually mean by that?

Saddam Hussein borrowed from Stalinism. He had his security people trained in Eastern Europe, particularly East Germany. Then he brought them back to Iraq and he taught them how to use the tribal linkage to eliminate people. So whereas they used Stalinist methods to discover people who were opposed to the regime, after that came the tribal factor, when Saddam said "Don't get rid of Abdullah, get rid of his whole family, because one member of his family might assassinate us." And that made it a perfect system for Iraq. It is practically foolproof.

Do we know whether or not Saddam has actually studied Stalin's tactics?

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Saddam studied Stalin. Stalin is his hero. Stalin came from a humble background. Stalin was brought up by his mother. Stalin used thugs. Stalin used the security service. Stalin hated his army. And so does Saddam Hussein. Saddam Hussein models himself after Stalin more than any other man in history.

He has a full library of books about Stalin. He reads about him, and when he was a young man -- even before he attained any measure of power -- he used to wander around the offices of the Ba'ath Party telling people "Wait until I take over this country. I will make a Stalinist state out of it yet." People used to laugh him off. They shouldn't have. It was a very serious proposition indeed.

Briefly, what is his background?

He was from a very poor family, in a village called Al Awja, which is next to the town of Tikrit. As a young boy he had to steal so his family could eat. He stole eggs, and he stole chicken, things like that. He was illiterate until the age of 10. He heard that his cousin could read and write and demanded that he be afforded the same opportunity.

After that he became a gunman, a thug for the Ba'ath Party and he participated in the assassination attempt on the country's strong man, Gen. Kassem, in 1959. Then he went into exile in Cairo. Came back after the Ba'ath took power and proceeded to organize the party and give it supremacy over the army, which was a very important development.

Whatever Saddam Hussein is he is above all an organizer, in a part of the world which hasn't seen much of that. And this is why he -- to use a word that does not fit him -- he actually shines when you compare him with other Arab leaders.

For people who don't understand Iraq, how important are family and tribal connections in that society?

Family and tribal connections are supreme. They come ahead of ideology. They come ahead of commitment to the nation-state, they come ahead of all commitments. Saddam Hussein realizes that. This is why, at a certain point, he transferred power from the Ba'ath Party, which put him in power, to his family, because he decided that the family can be trusted, but the party cannot be trusted.

He weakened the party and strengthened the family, and that is the situation in the country now. His second son is the head of the dreaded security system. His first son, who was a psychopath, runs all types of committees in the country. His brother is on the security system, his cousins are in key positions in the army. The people who come from Al Awja are in other positions in the army. The people who come from Tikrit, the town near Al Awja, are in other positions. It's a pyramid of relationships, tribal and familial. And this is what he depends on. And, those people are loyal to him, because they believe that if Saddam goes, they will go as well.

During the time of that assassination attempt in 1959, when Saddam first leaves the country and goes to Damascus, goes to Cairo, what was the great game being played in the Middle East at that time?

The great game played in the Middle East in 1959 was Arab nationalism under Nasser. Nasser wanted to unite the Arab countries into one great one, capable of being completely independent. Most of the Western powers were opposed to that. The Ba'ath Party, to which Saddam belonged, believed in Arab unity as well. The man who ran Iraq, the man Saddam tried to assassinate, Gen. Abdel Karim Kassem, did not believe in that. And this is why Saddam and his crew tried to kill him. And that is also why once Saddam escaped after the assassination attempt, he found refuge in Cairo, under Nasser's patronage. That was the situation: The Arabs trying to unite; the West, the United States and Britain in particular, were opposed to this unity.

So Saddam in the early '70s is Iraq's vice president. Could you describe how he's already setting up a Stalinist system with control of the government.

In the early '70s, Saddam started out controlling one small department called the Peasants Department; at that time the Ba'ath regime, for a very brief period of time, was committed to installing a democratic system in Iraq. It was a bit of a dream. Came the time for them to assign the job of head of the security system, and no one from the inner circle wanted the job. Everybody says, "This is a dirty job. I don't want it." Young Saddam Hussein raised his hand, and said, "I want the job. I'll take over the security system."

He took over the security system, called it the Department of General Relations and proceeded to expand it. This was his first step towards attaining power.

The president at the time, Ahmed Bakr had been a general, and a very nice man. Quite a religious man too. Saddam was a relation of his. He surrendered everything to Saddam, because Saddam worked an 18-hour day. In no time at all, Saddam was head of security, he was head of the Peasants Department, he was head of relations with the Kurds, he was head of the committee that controlled the oil. He was head of the committee that controlled relations with the Arab countries. He was head of the workers syndicate.

There was a conflict between all these departments that Saddam controlled so tightly and the armed forces -- because the armed forces is the one organization capable of overthrowing government. Saddam proceeded to emasculate the army and place his professional soldier relations from Tikrit in key positions. For example, his brother-in-law became chief of staff of the army. And of course soon enough, like all people who are dictators, who are jealous of the army, he appointed himself general and eventually like Stalin he became field marshal.

So much of what you just described certainly has Stalinist overtones.

Without any doubt everything Saddam did had Stalinist overtones. In particular, the reliance on the security system rather than the armed forces, the jealousy of the generals in the armed forces, the use of criminal elements within the country, and, incorporating them into the security system. And those people were sort of semi-literate thugs whose loyalty was to Saddam, without whom, they were nothing. And so he brought them in, he depended on them, and they did him service. Anybody he wanted to get rid of he got rid of. And the door was wide open.

He had two qualities that put him ahead of his colleagues. His ability to work an 18-hour day. Endlessly. And a sense of organization. You didn't see Saddam at three o'clock and miss that appointment by five minutes. Because Saddam would ask you why you are five minutes late, or five minutes early. If you had an appointment with Saddam at three, you showed up at three. That was that. He is that organized. He is that methodical.

And perhaps another comparison to Stalin is his relationship with Bakr and, Stalin's relationship with Lenin.

Without any doubt there are similarities in the careers of Stalin and Saddam. Among other things, the major one is Stalin played second fiddle to Lenin for a long time. And it was then Lenin became very suspicious of Stalin. Saddam did the same thing with Ahmed Hassan Bakr and towards the end, Ahmed Hassan Bakr became very suspicious of Saddam and wanted to get rid of him. But it was too late. By then Saddam was in control of the whole country. And Bakr was shoved aside and replaced. Saddam became president. That is one similarity.

The use of criminal elements is key in this. Both of them used them, both of them rotated the heads of the security system because they knew this was the system that controlled the country. So no one could stay in that position for a long time. The longest serving head of security was Saddam's half-brother who was there for eight years. And he eventually was moved into another job by Saddam because he became too powerful.

-

[alephh]

Saddam Hussein donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to a Detroit church and received a key to the city more than two decades ago.

Saddam's bond with Detroit started in 1979, when the Rev. Jacob Yasso of Chaldean Sacred Heart congratulated Saddam on his presidency. In return, Yasso said, his church received $250,000.

"He was very kind person, very generous, very cooperative with the West. Lately, what's happened, I don't know." Yasso said that at the time, Saddam made donations to Chaldean churches around the world. "He's very kind to Christians."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82317,00.html

[George Eller]

Saddam Hussein donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to a Detroit church and received a key to the city more than two decades ago.

Saddam's bond with Detroit started in 1979, when the Rev. Jacob Yasso of Chaldean Sacred Heart congratulated Saddam on his presidency. In return, Yasso said, his church received $250,000.

"He was very kind person, very generous, very cooperative with the West. Lately, what's happened, I don't know." Yasso said that at the time, Saddam made donations to Chaldean churches around the world. "He's very kind to Christians."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82317,00.html
-

I don't see any amount of money making up for all the evil that he did. You just don't buy off God.

From the Scriptures:

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
(KJV King James Version)

Hosea 6:6 For I desire goodness, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt-offerings.
(ASV American Standard Version)

Hosea 6:6 For kindness I desired, and not sacrifice, And a knowledge of God above burnt-offerings.
(YLT Youngs Literal Translation)

-

1987-88
Kurdish Genocide
http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/saddam_en.html#_ednref16

200,000 Kurds Murdered

3000 Kurdish villages destroyed. One million Kurds and Turkomen are displaced. Hundreds of thousands live to this day in refugee camps in Iran under extreme conditions.

Saddam Hussein places his cousin General Ali Hassan Al-Majeed (dubbed ‘Chemical Ali’) in charge of the Kurdish genocide.

Halapja massacre [xvii] (03/16/88) “Chemical Ali” drops mustard gas, nerve agent surin, tabun and VX gas on Kurdish village. Five thousand (5000) die in minutes. Tens of thousands crippled.


The Kurds
http://links.streamingwizard.com/1stuk/theotheriraq/webdocchapter1m.asx

http://links.streamingwizard.com/1stuk/theotheriraq/webdocchapter2m.asx

-

Let’s start with money. At a minimum, we know that Saddam Hussein’s government supported terrorism by paying "bonuses" of up to $25,000 to the families of Palestinian homicide bombers. How do we know this? Tariq Aziz, Hussein's own deputy prime minister, was stunningly candid about the Baathist government’s underwriting of terrorist killings in Israel.

“President Saddam Hussein has recently told the head of the Palestinian political office, Faroq al-Kaddoumi, his decision to raise the sum granted to each family of the martyrs of the Palestinian uprising to $25,000 instead of $10,000,” Aziz, announced at a Baghdad meeting of Arab politicians and businessmen on March 11, 2002, Reuters reported the next day.

http://husseinandterror.com/

-

In April 2002, Saddam Hussein increased from $10,000 to $25,000 the money offered to families of Palestinian suicide/homicide bombers. The rules for rewarding suicide/homicide bombers are strict and insist that only someone who blows himself up with a belt of explosives gets the full payment. Payments are made on a strict scale, with different amounts for wounds, disablement, death as a "martyr" and $25,000 for a suicide bomber. Mahmoud Besharat, a representative on the West Bank who is handing out to families the money from Saddam, said, "You would have to ask President Saddam why he is being so generous. But he is a revolutionary and he wants this distinguished struggle, the intifada, to continue."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/decade/sect5.html

-

Saddam Pays 25K for Palestinian Bombers
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,48822,00.html

-

[SS Tiger]

I just think it's wrong the way we invaded, took him out of power then put him on trial(of which we were pulling the strings, so the verdict was decided before it even started)for war crimes that we happily turned a blind eye to at the time because it suited our own political means. If there should have been any implications for him for his war crimes it should have been at the time, not years in the future when it suits us.

[George Eller]

I just think it's wrong the way we invaded, took him out of power then put him on trial(of which we were pulling the strings, so the verdict was decided before it even started)for war crimes that we happily turned a blind eye to at the time because it suited our own political means. If there should have been any implications for him for his war crimes it should have been at the time, not years in the future when it suits us.
-

I don't think there is a statute of limitations for murder.

And I believe it was for crimes against humanity.

-

[PLT.SGT.BAKER]

Maybe sending him to Camp X-Ray would be good, but I hear they closed it down, and its only a temporarily camp, So maybe Camp Delta Or Echo where he will endure the harsh life of being in prison and treated not so fairly by the guards.

[SS Tiger]

-

I don't think there is a statute of limitations for murder.

And I believe it was for crimes against humanity.

-

Either way, my point is that he is being put to death for America's/Britain's political means not because he committed those crimes. It's just one big piece of Bush propaganda to help him impose his political ideals on Iraq.

[George Eller]

Either way, my point is that he is being put to death for America's/Britain's political means not because he committed those crimes. It's just one big piece of Bush propaganda to help him impose his political ideals on Iraq.
-

I don't see it that way. For me, what is important is that justice is being served for the sake of the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who died at the hands of a ruthless dictator who brutalized his people for decades. He could not very well have been put on trial while he was still in power.

Even those who oppose Bush here in the United States and in Iraq (Democrat leaders and certain Shiite clerics) were pleased with the news of Saddam Hussein's sentence. Most Iraqis will be glad to see him go.

I feel no more sympathy for him than I would for a serial killer on death row.

-

[Chevan]

Either way, my point is that he is being put to death for America's/Britain's political means not because he committed those crimes. It's just one big piece of Bush propaganda to help him impose his political ideals on Iraq.
I'm fully agree with Tiger.

Is it not seems the strange for you gentlemens , why it was needed to begin the slauther in Iraq and killed handreds of thousands peoples and all it for what?
For the sentence of Saddam for murdering of 148 Shiits.

[Chevan]

-

I don't think there is a statute of limitations for murder.

And I believe it was for crimes against humanity.

-
Looking how our American friends so worry about civil population in Iraq and boldly called Sabbam as war crime , may i ask you guys. What do you think about US methods of suppression in Iraq (for instance in Falugy) .
As may be you know that US army used the White Phosphorouse bombs in Falugi (it seems in 2003) .
And do you think normal the situation that since the invasion to the Iraq in 2003 it were killed about 650 000 civilians (US latest datas) at the same time Saddam's regime for several decades killed less people then US army for 3 year.

Cheers.

[Gen. Sandworm]

Looking how our American friends so worry about civil population in Iraq and boldly called Sabbam as war crime , may i ask you guys. What do you think about US methods of suppression in Iraq (for instance in Falugy) .
As may be you know that US army used the White Phosphorouse bombs in Falugi (it seems in 2003) .
And do you think normal the situation that since the invasion to the Iraq in 2003 it were killed about 650 000 civilians (US latest datas) at the same time Saddam's regime for several decades killed less people then US army for 3 year.

Cheers.

Firstly I dont think anyone is really going to miss Saddam. He was one of plenty of bastards.
2. Phosphorus bombs/grenades/whatever are not illegal just looked down upon...........same as landmines.
3. Although the Coalition forces have somewhat to do with it IMO most deaths now days are due to the Iraqi Civil war.

[Sneaksie]

3. Although the Coalition forces have somewhat to do with it IMO most deaths now days are due to the Iraqi Civil war.

And what is the reason to Iraqi Civil War?

[2nd of foot]

Iraq has had a civil war going on since Saddam took power, he was just better at keeping it under control (hiding the evidence).


And do you think normal the situation that since the invasion to the Iraq in 2003 it were killed about 650 000 civilians (US latest datas) at the same time Saddam's regime for several decades killed less people then US army for 3 year.


Is this from US data or is it compiled using statistical evidence that 1 in ten have died in town X, there for the total dead must be 1 in 10 X number of towns.

Question: what is White Phosphorous bombs used for?

[SS Tiger]

The Iraqi's official numbers dead are 150,000. I'm pretty certain that is a lot more dead than would have been had Saddam remained in power. Why don't the Allied leaders, say, Bush and Blair stand trail, their excuse for all these dead would be the WMDs (which there was little evidence of, Bush and certainly Blair were informed of this before the invasion.). The WMDs excuse for the killing of 150,000 Iraqis is as bad Saddam's excuse for killing those Kurds. Why the double standard? Why don't the Iraqi people put the U.S. and Britain on trail? Because the Iraqi government isn't the Iraqi government it is a puppet with Bush pulling the strings and making it dance to his propaganda song. Face it, we invaded and screwed up a country that was relatively stable for our own gain not the Iraqi people's, Bush couldn't careless about the Iraqi people.

[SS Tiger]

Question: what is White Phosphorous bombs used for?

You chuck them into enemy positions where the fire and smoke from them drives the occupants out, or they die from severe burns and smoke inhalation. Also they can be used to light up enemy positions.

[Jasa]

Vrlo dobro, Hrvate!!

[George Eller]

-


Question: what is White Phosphorous bombs used for?

You chuck them into enemy positions where the fire and smoke from them drives the occupants out, or they die from severe burns and smoke inhalation. Also they can be used to light up enemy positions.

White Phosphorous was also used by US tankers during WWII as part of their tactics when dealing with German armor.

A popular tactic in experienced US tank battalions when encountering Panthers was to strike them first with white phosphorous smoke rounds. Inexperienced German crews would sometimes be forced out by the acrid smoke, drawn in through the tank's ventilator. Even if these tricks did not work, the smoke prevented the Panthers from locating their opponents, giving the M4 tanks time to maneuver to the flanks or rear, where their 75mm gun could penetrate the Panther's armor. This tactic was standard operating procedure in some units, including CCA, 4th Armored Division.
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=73555&postcount=1

-

US used white phosphorus in Iraq
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4440664.stm

US troops used white phosphorus as a weapon in last year's [2003] offensive in the Iraqi city of Falluja, the US has said.

Col Venable told the BBC's PM radio programme that the US army used white phosphorus incendiary munitions "primarily as obscurants, for smokescreens or target marking in some cases.

"However it is an incendiary weapon and may be used against enemy combatants."

And he said it had been used in Falluja, but it was a "conventional munition", not a chemical weapon.

It is not "outlawed or illegal", Col Venable said.

He said US forces could use white phosphorus rounds to flush enemy troops out of covered positions.

"The combined effects of the fire and smoke - and in some case the terror brought about by the explosion on the ground - will drive them out of the holes so that you can kill them with high explosives," he said.

San Diego journalist Darrin Mortenson, who was embedded with US marines during the assault on Falluja, told the BBC's Today radio programme he had seen white phosphorous used "as an incendiary weapon" against insurgents.

However, he "never saw anybody intentionally use any weapon against civilians", he said.

-

White phosphorus (weapon)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus_(weapon)#Smoke-screening_agent

-

[Nickdfresh]

-

I don't think there is a statute of limitations for murder.

And I believe it was for crimes against humanity.

-


There isn't. I once had a pretty young blond JAG Army officer tell a friend of mine that "there is no statue of limitations on War crimes" after he tried to question the Laws of Land Warfare by bringing up and example of his father, who had been a Sergeant in the USMC in the Pacific. He stated that his Marine dad had often been often told to take Japanese prisoners on "a five-mile march and be back in five minutes." He quickly shut up and sat back down after she sort of rebuked him...

[2nd of foot]

You chuck them into enemy positions where the fire and smoke from them drives the occupants out, or they die from severe burns and smoke inhalation. Also they can be used to light up enemy positions.

I am well aware of the use of WP(or the more ecological Red Phosphorous, same colour smoke different name and make up). My question was directed at chevan as he/she is unaware of its use in combat. He/she seems to think it is an outlawed tool because some nit does not like it’s effect. It has a limited area with the initial burst on open ground of about 40-50m. it produces instant smk and due to the particles burning to produce this smk it can set things on fire. it is excelent stuff and i loved using it.

http://www.platypuspool.com/images/wp1.jpg

With WP you get instant smk
http://www.ribbands.co.uk/images/prodimgs/greensmk.jpg


With chemical you get smk but it takes time and is more commonly used to signal and not screen at Bn level and below.

And after finding this it is a bit much calling the pot black

In the December 1994 battle for Grozny in Chechnya, every fourth or fifth Russian artillery or mortar round fired was a smoke or white phosphorus round.

[Chevan]

Thank's George Eller for information.
White Phosphorous bombs were forbided by the Convention of UN in 1980 which USA unsigned . Do somebody know, why USA not signed it?
This wearpon is very rough and terrible. In place of explosion of WP-bomb people die in circle of 150-200 metres.
The victims of WF has a tupical chemical burns.
Here's a some photos:
http://www.beseder.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2005/11/1131444306.jpg
http://www.beseder.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2005/11/1131444381.jpg
http://www.beseder.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2005/11/1131444132.jpg
Falluji, 2003
What's interesting - first time Pentagon denied the fact of application of WF in Iraq.
Italian TV channel RAI showed the film about it.
Although WF was not determined as the chemical wearpon it terrible effect is very simular and UN forbid it. Certainly UN not the law for the US. It's obviously US has own standarts of war. ;)
I know the point exist: this is the war with terrorism and any humanity is the weakness. OK i understand.
But by this way the sentence of Saddam for 148 shiits look cynically..Not because he is good guy, certainly he deserved the punishment.


In the December 1994 battle for Grozny in Chechnya, every fourth or fifth Russian artillery or mortar round fired was a smoke or white phosphorus round.
Oh yes , my stupid , If WF was used in Grozny then US has lawful right to use it in Iraq. Is it your logic? :)
And i hope you understand if you will not give the evidence that "every fourth or fifth round fired in Grozny" was a WF you will look like an idiot not only in my eyes.
P.S. And where is your "1st of foot" ?;)

Cheers.

[Chevan]

Hot news Gentlemens.
I wathed on TV after the retirement of J.Ramsfeld Britain prepare to remove as soon as it possible the troops from the Iraq. Is it true ?
It's seems the "coalition" crumble.
My point is although the US agression was a mistake but withdraw the US troops from Iraq today will be consider of islamic extremists as victory and all the world will feel it on own skin. Europe and Asia - everywhere are the islam.
So i think it will be a danger desicion to leave the Iraq right now.

Cheers.

[Gen. Sandworm]

Thank's George Eller for information.
White Phosphorous bombs were forbided by the Convention of UN in 1980 which USA unsigned . Do somebody know, why USA not signed it?


Would like to see that resolution.......coz ive never heard of it.


Originally Posted by 2nd of foot
In the December 1994 battle for Grozny in Chechnya, every fourth or fifth Russian artillery or mortar round fired was a smoke or white phosphorus round.

Oh yes , my stupid , If WF was used in Grozny then US has lawful right to use it in Iraq. Is it your logic? :)
And i hope you understand if you will not give the evidence that "every fourth or fifth round fired in Grozny" was a WF you will look like an idiot not only in my eyes.
P.S. And where is your "1st of foot" ?;)

Cheers.

His point was that it is common use by many Army's around the world........ even yours.

P.S. watch the insults.

[Gen. Sandworm]

Hot news Gentlemens.
I wathed on TV after the retirement of J.Ramsfeld Britain prepare to remove as soon as it possible the troops from the Iraq. Is it true ?
It's seems the "coalition" crumble.
My point is although the US agression was a mistake but withdraw the US troops from Iraq today will be consider of islamic extremists as victory and all the world will feel it on own skin. Europe and Asia - everywhere are the islam.
So i think it will be a danger desicion to leave the Iraq right now.

Cheers.

I agree with that........the situation is a catch 22!

[Chevan]

Would like to see that resolution.......coz ive never heard of it.

Geneva conventions of 1980

Protocol 3 (Incendiary Weapons )
http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/1980e.htm

Protection of civilians and civilian objects

1. It is prohibited in all circumstances to make the civilian population as such, individual civilians or civilian objects the object of attack by incendiary weapons.

2. It is prohibited in all circumstances to make any military objective located within a concentration of civilians the object of attack by air-delivered incendiary weapons.

3. It is further prohibited to make any military objective located within a concentration of civilians the object of attack by means of incendiary weapons other than air-delivered incendiary weapons, except when such military objective is clearly separated from the concentration of civilians and all feasible precautions are taken with a view to limiting the incendiary effects to the military objective and to avoiding, and in any event to minimizing, incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects. 4. It is prohibited to make forests or other kinds of plant cover the object of attack by incendiary weapons except when such natural elements are used to cover, conceal or camouflage combatants or other military objectives, or are themselves military objectives.

Using the WF as particular case of Incendiary Weapons in cities like Fallyji was forbiden. Certainly the point is it used against guerrials but many of female victims and children photos showed thet civilians was there.

His point was that it is common use by many Army's around the world........ even yours.

But i never heared that any army exceps US used it.
OK no problems . Have you any evidence?

P.S. watch the insults.
I just kidding for he/she...

[Gen. Sandworm]

But i never heared that any army exceps US used it.
OK no problems . Have you any evidence?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus_%28weapon%29

Here is a starting point. Plus has the quote 2nd of Foot was talking about.

[Chevan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus_%28weapon%29

Here is a starting point. Plus has the quote 2nd of Foot was talking about.

According to GlobalSecurity.org, "In the December 1994 battle for Grozny in Chechnya, every fourth or fifth Russian artillery or mortar round fired was a smoke or white phosphorus round."
Are any documental evidence of it except GlobalSecurity.org?

[George Eller]

-

White Phosphorous bombs were forbided by the Convention of UN in 1980.

-

They were not forbidden - only restricted in their use.

Protocol on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Incendiary Weapons (Protocol III),
1342 U.N.T.S. 171, 19 I.L.M. 1534, entered into force Dec. 2, 1983.
http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/1980e.htm

Article 1

Definitions

For the purpose of this Protocol:

1. "Incendiary weapon" means any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat, or combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target. (a) Incendiary weapons can take the form of, for example, flame throwers, fougasses, shells, rockets, grenades, mines, bombs and other containers of incendiary substances.

(b) Incendiary weapons do not include:

(i) Munitions which may have incidental incendiary effects, such as illuminants, tracers, smoke or signalling systems

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incendiary_weapon
Since white phosphorus can be used as a multi-purpose device to mark targets, provide a smoke screen, or signal to friendly troops, it is not covered by UN protocols on incendiary weapons when used in this fashion. Use of aerial incendiary weapons against civilian populations, including against military targets in civilian areas, was banned (by adopting countries) in the 1980 United Nations Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons Protocol III. The USA has signed Articles I and II, but was not a signatory to Protocols III, IV, And V. This allows the US to use these weapons on military targets.

-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4440664.stm
Col Venable told the BBC's PM radio programme that the US army used white phosphorus incendiary munitions "primarily as obscurants, for smokescreens or target marking in some cases.

He said US forces could use white phosphorus rounds to flush enemy troops out of covered positions.

"The combined effects of the fire and smoke - and in some case the terror brought about by the explosion on the ground - will drive them out of the holes so that you can kill them with high explosives," he said.

-

[Chevan]

(b) Incendiary weapons do not include:

(i) Munitions which may have incidental incendiary effects, such as illuminants, tracers, smoke or signalling systems


Common George do you seriously think the WP "have the incidental incendiary effects"?
Didi you see the photos of victims of this "incidental effect".
And Protocol III is forbided the application any incendiary wearpon (napalm, WP and else) in any city where could be the civilians

[2nd of foot]

Common George do you seriously think the WP "have the incidental incendiary effects"?
Didi you see the photos of victims of this "incidental effect".
And Protocol III is forbided the application any incendiary wearpon (napalm, WP and else) in any city where could be the civilians


Define a military target.

Using your argument tracer and illum (last I saw 81mm illum was 1,000,000 candle power so if that should hit anything it is going to burn) would be banned, as it will set fire to most things.

You also need to read the convention very closely.

"Incendiary weapon" means any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects

WP smk grenades primary task is to hide you position or mark targets.

And smk is specifically not included.

Although you have shown pictures of casualties how can you confirm that they are non-combatants?

My point about the Russian artillery is that 20-25% of rounds fired was WP. Where as the US use a number of grenades and possibly 81mm bombs not the same scale.

Until you have had to use smk to cover/conceal your position on the two way range you will not understand how valuable it is compared to very slow acting chemical smk.

But the main point is, if the enemy hides behind and amongst the civilian population and actively uses them for cover then it will not be uncommon if they are caught up in the fight.

And the Royal Scots (first of foot, right of line, Ponchus Pilot’s body guard) have been amalgamated with the other Scottish regiments.

[Chevan]

Define a military target.

Using your argument tracer and illum (last I saw 81mm illum was 1,000,000 candle power so if that should hit anything it is going to burn) would be banned, as it will set fire to most things.

well , we must define WP ammunition for illumination (or for the smoke) and Incendiary WP ammunition. It's obviously not the same.
As it was clear in Falluji was applued the Incendiary ( becouse the victims had a characters chemical burns).
Certainly i/m not the specialist of WP ammunition , but the different WP bombs exist.

You also need to read the convention very closely.

OK , now you will do this closely.

WP smk grenades primary task is to hide you position or mark targets.

Excuse me , dear mr. 2nd of foot, would you hide YOUR position by the wearpon which killed everybody in distance 150 meters around????
Not think so, therefore we talk about different WP-klass wearpon: you mean the illumination, i mean the WP incendiary bombs which were applied in Falluji.
And smk is specifically not included.

Although you have shown pictures of casualties how can you confirm that they are non-combatants?

You right, I can't confirm. But italian director (who made the documental film) very convincingly showed the civil victims (women and children) of WP in Falluji. Also was showed the interview with american ex-soldier of battle for the Falluji who proved the application of WP-incedriary wearpon there.


My point about the Russian artillery is that 20-25% of rounds fired was WP.

Oh , 2nd of foot , it's was "every 4 from 5" and now already "20-25%". We are in right direction. Soon we could learn the true.
I STILL DIDN'T SEE ANY FACTs of application in Groznj of WP-incendiary wearpon..

Where as the US use a number of grenades and possibly 81mm bombs not the same scale.

But at the same time there're a lot of documental evidences of US application WP in Iraq

Until you have had to use smk to cover/conceal your position on the two way range you will not understand how valuable it is compared to very slow acting chemical smk.

WP easy could be compared with chemical werpon - deep chemical burns (till bone). And your right this act very quickly.

But the main point is, if the enemy hides behind and amongst the civilian population and actively uses them for cover then it will not be uncommon if they are caught up in the fight.

So, this is DIRECT VIOLATION of Protocol II of Geneva convention of 1980.
(using the incendiary werpon in cities where are the civilians)

And the Royal Scots (first of foot, right of line, Ponchus Pilot’s body guard) have been amalgamated with the other Scottish regiments.
OK ,i didn't know it . my best wishes for the Royal Scots.

[Gen. Sandworm]

Chevan you might want to consider that the other side is not playing by the Geneva conventions.....they use civilians as protection. Plus its not like the insurgents are clearly marked with their "Im a bad guy" helmet. Who is a civilian and who is an insurgent only differs by who has a gun or a bomb(Note: Dont forget each Iraqi family is allowed one weapon for protection). This is not always so easy to see. So as in most battles im sure accidents happen.

So are suggesting that US-Coalition forces are ........targeting civilians? And for what purpose to.......just kill them or get thru the barrier or study how people from the middle east burn or what? :confused:

P.S. We need a better confusion smilies.

[Chevan]

Chevan you might want to consider that the other side is not playing by the Geneva conventions.....they use civilians as protection. Plus its not like the insurgents are clearly marked with their "Im a bad guy" helmet. Who is a civilian and who is an insurgent only differs by who has a gun or a bomb(Note: Dont forget each Iraqi family is allowed one weapon for protection). This is not always so easy to see. So as in most battles im sure accidents happen.

So this is the war without the rules Sandworm?
And if you not play in Geneva rules then is you better the extremists? Don't forget the extremist the justify shahids and killing the hostages ( by cut off the neck) becouse they see as "coalition" soldiers murdered its womens and children. This cruel war can continie endless.
OK, your position is "if we will play on rules we lost the war" Is not it?
And we must to fight by any methods? MAy be you right. But why it's needed to sentense Saddam for killing of 148 shiits (were they a real civilians or not)- this is look cinically for other islam nations, becouse probably US killed more shiits in Falluji just for one day!!!
Indeed i good understand your point. It was absolutly clear in Chechnij for me. The relatives of chechens who was killed during the first war 1994-1996 easy will agree to be shahids later during the second war. And we could avoid the much of terrorist attack, but the disision of Yeltsin command of oligarchs to enter the demoralised Russian army in 1994 in Chechnij not thought so.
I believe in 1994 we had the other ability to fuck the chechen bandits ( as example make the problems for Chechens diaspora in Moscow). But those oligarh bas... (by the way with jewish families) prefered to make a money on the war.

So are suggesting that US-Coalition forces are ........targeting civilians? And for what purpose to.......just kill them or get thru the barrier or study how people from the middle east burn or what? :confused:

P.S. We need a better confusion smilies.
Well you must ask yourself what realy do US-Coalition in Iraq?
If they do it for oil - this is senseless becouse the world oil price grow up in 3 times (!)since the invasion.
If they do it for democtacy and against Islam world extremism - thet's OK i'm supported them. But why US decided to strike on Iraq??
As may be you know the oil islam states like Saudy Aravia, Iordan and ets officialy sended the money to the extremists ( they call it the "help for the supporting of Islam"). Using this money extremists has the war agains not-islam peoples including the western civilians). So why so rich and radical islamic states are "friend" of USA but poorest Iraq ( cause of 10 years sanctions) was cynicaly called as "enemy of western civilization". And CIA outrageously lied about the Iraq's mass-destruction wearpon till invasion.
I'm supported the J.Bush when he called to fight against islam extremism, but instead of to create realy strong coalition in Europe, US prefered the "particular" interest - to crush the personal american enemy Saddam and take its oil. What's geniuslly!!
I think this can be good just for Israel - nobody else.
Now after the losing of election in US the "war party" - the Republicans, its seem US will forced to withdraw the troops (early or later) from Iraq And i'm very worry for the perspective in Iraq becouse may be you know :
"What don't kill us - make us stronger".
Hence islamic extremists could take the power again and now it will be not Saddam regime - much worst.

Cheers

[2nd of foot]

well , we must define WP ammunition for illumination (or for the smoke) and Incendiary WP ammunition. It's obviously not the same.
As it was clear in Falluji was applued the Incendiary ( becouse the victims had a characters chemical burns).
Certainly i/m not the specialist of WP ammunition , but the different WP bombs exist.

It is clear you have no understanding of the use of WP. It is not an illumination devise, it is used to cover your movement or mark targets. It works by bursting WP into small parts that burn when in contact with oxygen and produce a dense smoke. It is the smoke we need, the burning is a by-product. It is not a chemical burn as most would understand (acid or alkali) but a very hot substance. It burns on contact and will stop burning if the oxygen is removed (under water) unlike acid that will continue to burn until washed off.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/holocaust/images/experi_03_burn.jpg

From and interesting reading.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/holocaust/images/experi_03_burn.jpg

There is no WP ammunition use primarily as an incendiary in use today, the incendiary is a by-product of its primary task.

Excuse me , dear mr. 2nd of foot, would you hide YOUR position by the wearpon which killed everybody in distance 150 meters around????

As an MFC I used smk a lot closer to FF as the danger area for 81 smk is far less than HE and 40m is more accurate not 150m

You right, I can't confirm. But italian director (who made the documental film) very convincingly showed the civil victims (women and children) of WP in Falluji. Also was showed the interview with american ex-soldier of battle for the Falluji who proved the application of WP-incedriary wearpon there.

The burns are caused by fire that may have been started by WP but as I have shown above a WP burn is not over the entire body.

Oh , 2nd of foot , it's was "every 4 from 5" and now already "20-25%". We are in right direction. Soon we could learn the true.

Do your maths 1 in 4 = 25% or every 4th round.

I STILL DIDN'T SEE ANY FACTs of application in Groznj of WP-incendiary wearpon

WP is not an incendiary but can be.

But at the same time there're a lot of documental evidences of US application WP in Iraq

I would be very surprised if they did not, it is an excellent smk producer as shown below.

http://www.army-technology.com/contractor_images/buck_neue/2_Scenario_Maske.jpg

In this image you can clearly see the individual peaces of Phosphorous burning as they fall. It was initially thought that if they could make the WP peaces small and continue to suspend them in air they would also screen thermal images, but these proved not possible and other areas are being looked at.

Chemical smk would be that which is produced in large scale to cover a large area over a long time. This was used by during WW2 to cover towns from bombers, to mask the movement of troops prior to crossing the Rhine and on Soviet tanks and war ships. Its application at low level is only for signalling as it take too long to produce an affective screen.

http://www.tonyrogers.com/news/images/soviet_tanks.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/50000/images/_53794_tanks_with_smoke.jpg

[Gen. Sandworm]

My point is that the US-Coalition forces are bounded by the Geneva and UN resolutions. The other side is not. We have rules of engagement. They do not. I do believe that if US soliders commit a crime like that of the My Lai massacre than they should be punished. I dont think they punish their people for shooting a medic. So does that mean that we are morally correct by abiding by the rules or at least the best we can? To the rest of the world yes it matters because we are watched closely and represent the way a modern military should behave. To the soliders in the shit I think they are a bit more concerned with staying alive. On the other side they are not as concerned with the protection of themselves or their own.

BTW I still do not think that WP is illegal. A lot of news programs would need to retract their statement then. Dont think you get the point of the resolution you are stating either. Anyhow You talk about "oh look what it does to people" Does it really matter "even if they were illegal" cause you can find plently of pics that look the same from weapons that are legel. True Incendiary weapons usually kill a person way before they are burned. It sucks so much oxygen out of the air that if one was close enough to not feel the effect that they would almost sufficate. I think I would rather die instantly in war that have bits and pieces blown off and die a slow and painful death. You can moan about whatever but in this case people are dying and thats just how it is. But would you like to see a war crimes trial for Americans that mostly abided by the rules or those that totally disregared them?

All im saying is that in war accidents that break these resolutions happens all the time. Even when both sides are playing the rules. But things are worse for civilians in this case because the insurgents arent playing by the rules. And they arent just targeting US-Coalitions forces either. They are targeting Iraqis as well.

I dont think we should have ever gone into Iraq. Like I said Saddam is a bastard that no one will miss but he is one of plently around the world. Whatever the case for going in does not matter anymore. Its to late we are there. Are job is to help the Iraqis stand on their on feet and handle these problems and then get out. They understand the problems of Iraq much better than we do. However we cant leave just yet because it would do nothing but promote further civil war and more crisis. In which we would probably just have to go back in probably under the UN. Which brings more people to a mess we started.

Im sure that in some odd way Bush had a plan for entry and exit for Iraq. Although im totally convinced it would never work on this planet coz he is a moron. "Everybody has a plan untill they get hit." Well we got hit hard and now things are fucked. However it is a war that has been coming for a long time........those who side with the west and those who dont. I dont care if all the insurgents cry peace in iraq and lay down there weapons and the Iraqis gain control of their country. There will still be unrest in the middle east. Its be a mess for the last 1000 years and I dont see any reason it should change anytime soon. All the religous groups over there hate each other and hate forigeners too. Funny that these 3 main religions in the middle east spark so much hate. :roll:

Insofar as Isreal...........I think they will do whatever they want. When Saddam was at war with Iran he did have and active nuclear program. Isreal saw this as a threat and bombed the place off the map. Same with Iran. Iran and the US are currently playing the diplomatic game. Playing the rules. However if Iran does come to the point where they could start making nukes I have no doubt that Isreal would act uni-lateraly in striking Iran just as they did in early in the Iran-Iraq war. Or in any matter that they see as a threat to their country. Last summer for instance.

[Chevan]

It is clear you have no understanding of the use of WP. It is not an illumination devise, it is used to cover your movement or mark targets. It works by bursting WP into small parts that burn when in contact with oxygen and produce a dense smoke. It is the smoke we need, the burning is a by-product. It is not a chemical burn as most would understand (acid or alkali) but a very hot substance. It burns on contact and will stop burning if the oxygen is removed (under water) unlike acid that will continue to burn until washed off.

I know excellent the acting of WP and what it use for.
But you forget the WP could be mixed with different chemical materials ( for instance caoutchouc or napalm) and it will be very danger incendiary wearpon.
Look at picture below
http://www.beseder.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2005/11/1131444306.jpg
The dress is unharmed but the body burned till the bone - the character chemical burn!!! There were a many corps of woomen and children in Falluji morgue .
So could you say now this is the resault of "hot WP substance"?
Now the questions what was the wearpon which used in Falluji in november of 2004? ( what is the "shake'n'bake" -wearpon?)

As an MFC I used smk a lot closer to FF as the danger area for 81 smk is far less than HE and 40m is more accurate not 150m

May be 81 smk had the dangerouse distance 40m.
But the evidence of US ex-soldier Jeff Engelhart :
"I saw the burned bodies of women and children. Phosphorus explodes and is formed cloud. To all in radius of 150 meter - the end "
So what did he mean? Certainly not 81 smk for "marked the targets".

The burns are caused by fire that may have been started by WP but as I have shown above a WP burn is not over the entire body.

Its clear you didn't wath the film about Falluji , the some victims look like the entire skeletons in the dress.

P.S. So where is the evidence of incenriary WP in Groznij?

I know many facts of wrong application of Russian artillery and airforces in Chehnij but it absolutly clear in Groznij was NEVER applied the forbiden by UN wearpon (WP incendiary or something else). If it would , the our fifth column (so called "human right activist" ) would squeal about it for all the world. But no , is silence.
And if you think that the reference in Wiki to the "scientists" at the GlobalSecurity.org is the absolute source you make a mistake. I/m sure those "scientists proved the existence" the Mass-distraction wearpon till the invasion.
Later the airforces used ( very effective ) the vacuum bombs in Chechen mountains.


Cheers.

[Chevan]

My point is that the US-Coalition forces are bounded by the Geneva and UN resolutions. The other side is not. We have rules of engagement. They do not. I do believe that if US soliders commit a crime like that of the My Lai massacre than they should be punished. I dont think they punish their people for shooting a medic. So does that mean that we are morally correct by abiding by the rules or at least the best we can? To the rest of the world yes it matters because we are watched closely and represent the way a modern military should behave. To the soliders in the shit I think they are a bit more concerned with staying alive. On the other side they are not as concerned with the protection of themselves or their own.

BTW I still do not think that WP is illegal. A lot of news programs would need to retract their statement then. Dont think you get the point of the resolution you are stating either. Anyhow You talk about "oh look what it does to people" Does it really matter "even if they were illegal" cause you can find plently of pics that look the same from weapons that are legel. True Incendiary weapons usually kill a person way before they are burned. It sucks so much oxygen out of the air that if one was close enough to not feel the effect that they would almost sufficate. I think I would rather die instantly in war that have bits and pieces blown off and die a slow and painful death. You can moan about whatever but in this case people are dying and thats just how it is. But would you like to see a war crimes trial for Americans that mostly abided by the rules or those that totally disregared them?

All im saying is that in war accidents that break these resolutions happens all the time. Even when both sides are playing the rules. But things are worse for civilians in this case because the insurgents arent playing by the rules. And they arent just targeting US-Coalitions forces either. They are targeting Iraqis as well.

I dont think we should have ever gone into Iraq. Like I said Saddam is a bastard that no one will miss but he is one of plently around the world. Whatever the case for going in does not matter anymore. Its to late we are there. Are job is to help the Iraqis stand on their on feet and handle these problems and then get out. They understand the problems of Iraq much better than we do. However we cant leave just yet because it would do nothing but promote further civil war and more crisis. In which we would probably just have to go back in probably under the UN. Which brings more people to a mess we started.

Im sure that in some odd way Bush had a plan for entry and exit for Iraq. Although im totally convinced it would never work on this planet coz he is a moron. "Everybody has a plan untill they get hit." Well we got hit hard and now things are fucked. However it is a war that has been coming for a long time........those who side with the west and those who dont. I dont care if all the insurgents cry peace in iraq and lay down there weapons and the Iraqis gain control of their country. There will still be unrest in the middle east. Its be a mess for the last 1000 years and I dont see any reason it should change anytime soon. All the religous groups over there hate each other and hate forigeners too. Funny that these 3 main religions in the middle east spark so much hate. :roll:

Insofar as Isreal...........I think they will do whatever they want. When Saddam was at war with Iran he did have and active nuclear program. Isreal saw this as a threat and bombed the place off the map. Same with Iran. Iran and the US are currently playing the diplomatic game. Playing the rules. However if Iran does come to the point where they could start making nukes I have no doubt that Isreal would act uni-lateraly in striking Iran just as they did in early in the Iran-Iraq war. Or in any matter that they see as a threat to their country. Last summer for instance.

In common i agree with you Gen.

In which we would probably just have to go back in probably under the UN. Which brings more people to a mess we started.

Who are We? Do you think the US-coalition could back to the Iraq.
I think after the war any US presence in Iraq will be considered as provocation to the continie war.
So absolutly clear , not US forces ( and not any country of US -coalition) will come back to the Iraq under UN. But who could it be?
Mey be China - i/m sure not.
Russia - certainly not ( the chechen problems - is enough already).
Germany or France - not think so.
Who will go into the waspish nest, Gen?

When Saddam was at war with Iran he did have and active nuclear program. Isreal saw this as a threat and bombed the place off the map. Same with Iran
Are you sure the Israel could easy destoy the Iran nuclear objects??
If Iraq's nuclear centre was in single place then the Iran's more then handrets places deep underground. It's clearly Iran learned the lesson of Israel attack to the Iraq.
And i not think the Iran will "easy target" for war agression of Israel ( even with great US assistance)

Cheers.

[2nd of foot]

You are ether misunderstanding or doing an ironman!

If you mix WP with another liquid then it will not burn, it needs oxygen. So mixing it with napalm will have no effect and why would you want to any way? There must be a lot easier ways of setting off napalm.

Your picture shows a decomposing body not one that has been burnt. If it had been burn by WP the material would have burnt. WP is not an acid it burns because it is hot. It is more likely that rats or dog had the flesh not that it was burnt off.

“Shake`n`bake” comes from a cooking term used by a US food manufacturer. You shake seasoning over a chicken and bake it in the oven. It is a simple expressive term. I have known the term “dolly mix” to be used when calling for a mix of HE and WP on a fire mission. It has nothing to do with a children’s sweet, just an amusing term.

http://www.confetti.co.uk/shopping/newshop/shop_images/web150/W58159.jpg
dolly mix - bulk bag
Product code: W58159
Stock status: in stock (31 units available)
Price: £6.99

Read what is written not what you want to see. He clearly said, “Phosphorus explodes and is formed cloud”.
He does not say a burning cloud, he does not say it burnt to 150m, just it formed a cloud, which is what you want from smk.

http://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/img/product/rwm_spirco.jpg

WP is only a problem to people if used in confined areas. The bursting charge will spread the WP over an area and can cause fire (look at the hot bit of smoke in the picture).

Through the whole of this you have been trying to read something into it that is not there. WP grenades were used to clear building because they make it hard to breath and force you out (see below with caption). This was not some new dastardly weapon just a stupid reporter trying to make a story out of normal weapon use and using any bodies the were laying around to illustrate his point. As I said earlier what was the cause of death of the bodies? You do not know nor, does the reporter, but it is a good picture, like the one of the child’s teddy in the rubble of a building (after “drop the dead donkey” I laugh every time I see it).

http://www.nps.gov/archive/wapa/indepth/extcontent/usmc/pcn-190-003135-00/images/fig35.jpg

An Okinawan civilian is flushed from a cave into which a smoke grenade had been thrown. Many Okinawans sought the refuge of caves in which they could hide while the tide of battle passed over them. Unfortunately, a large number of caves were sealed when Marines suspected that they were harboring the enemy.

When watching these programs do the following
1 put tinfoild hat on
2 ask yourself who are they trying to get at
3 can you verify any of the facts from an independent reference
4 what is the political gaol

[Chevan]

You are ether misunderstanding or doing an ironman!

I don't know who was the ironman, but certainly you like his habits.

White phosphorus is white semi-transparent solid, it is more similar to wax. It is capable to fire, being connected with the atmospheric oxygen. Combustion temperature 900 - 1200 degrees. White phosphorus finds use as the smoke substance, and also as the igniter of napalm and pyro-gel in the incendiary ammunition. Plasticized phosphorus (with the additions of natural rubber - caoutchouc) acquires the capability to stick for vertical surfaces and to burn them. This makes it possible to use it for the equipment of bombs, min, projectiles
Encyclopaedia of wearpon:Incendiary Wearpon. Moscow. 2001


Plasticized WP - is the mixture of usual white phosphorus with the viscous solution of synthetic rubber(Caoutchouc). It is more steady during the storage. During the application it is crushed to the large slowly burning pieces, it is capable to stick of the vertical surfaces and to burn them. Burning phosphorus causes heavy, unhealthy for long to the healing burns.
http://law.pp.ru/lekc.php?rd=vk&what=showdetail&num=13
The incediary wearpon of foreign armies and defence from it.


According to the expert, in the ammunition find the synthetic rubber, well-packed by the pieces of phosphorus.
"when projectile or bomb is torn up, then the pieces of the natural rubber - it burns and it will burn, until phosphorus ends.
Absolutely everything burns, until phosphorus ends. The piece of hite the man - phosphorus finds to itself oxygen and it will burn. And you will remove in no way... this cannot be stopped ", "this weapon does not enter into the list of weapon of mass-destruction. But from the point of view of protection this undoubtedly weapon of mass-destruction. It not is selective ", emphasized the expert
http://www.russianamerica.ru/common/arc/story.php?id_cr=98&id=233478

WHAT's unintelligibly?
It absolutly clear there are many differents kind of ammunition conteined the WP as compaiund.
Take the clean WP - you get the illumination and thick smoke for targeting the position.
Mixed it with the pieces of robber - you get the danger incendiary wearpon which kiiled everybody in distance of explode.
Use WP warhead for lighting the napalm bomd - you get the 100% guaranteed explosion bomb.


Your picture shows a decomposing body not one that has been burnt. If it had been burn by WP the material would have burnt. WP is not an acid it burns because it is hot. It is more likely that rats or dog had the flesh not that it was burnt off.

So now you agree it was not simple WP. And certainly it was not chemical acid ( becouse the drees is not damaged). And i cann't belive it was the wild dogs ( becouse if dogs eat somebody it tear the bag into the piece.)
And it were not the rots becouse i can't imagine such crazy quantity of rots which could eat handrets of bodies for the some days to the bones.
And if you you right - why such absolutly "decomposing body" were not finded in other cities of Iraq .
may be rots and dogs are only in Falluji?
There're to much "why" in your point.

“Shake`n`bake” comes from a cooking term used by a US food manufacturer. You shake seasoning over a chicken and bake it in the oven. It is a simple expressive term. I have known the term “dolly mix” to be used when calling for a mix of HE and WP on a fire mission. It has nothing to do with a children’s sweet, just an amusing term.

OK i just read early the US soldier called the some kind of incendiary wearpon as Shake`n`bake”

WP is only a problem to people if used in confined areas. The bursting charge will spread the WP over an area and can cause fire (look at the hot bit of smoke in the picture).

Through the whole of this you have been trying to read something into it that is not there. WP grenades were used to clear building because they make it hard to breath and force you out (see below with caption). This was not some new dastardly weapon just a stupid reporter trying to make a story out of normal weapon use and using any bodies the were laying around to illustrate his point. As I said earlier what was the cause of death of the bodies? You do not know nor, does the reporter, but it is a good picture, like the one of the child’s teddy in the rubble of a building (after “drop the dead donkey” I laugh every time I see it).

2nd of foot, i excellent know the official Pentagon's version of application WP in Falluji.
Certainly you right i don't know the true. like and you.
But. Considering some facts ( as it was proven by the independent italian director). I not sure he absolutly right, but the Pentagon version is more than strange.

When watching these programs do the following
1 put tinfoild hat on
2 ask yourself who are they trying to get at
3 can you verify any of the facts from an independent reference
4 what is the political gaol
OK, i go to search tinfoild hat. ;)
Then i will try to verify the facts from an "independent" Pentagon references.
(If you can find any not Pentagon references about Falluji , give it to me please.)
And what is the political goal??

Cheers.

[Gen. Sandworm]

Are you sure the Israel could easy destoy the Iran nuclear objects??
If Iraq's nuclear centre was in single place then the Iran's more then handrets places deep underground. It's clearly Iran learned the lesson of Israel attack to the Iraq.
And i not think the Iran will "easy target" for war agression of Israel ( even with great US assistance)
Cheers.

I am sure that Isreal will do anything to protect themselves as the only nuclear country in the region. Even if attacking Iran mulitple times to ensure the destrustion of its nuke program. Im all for Iran having nuke power but a couple of year and they would/could have nukes. Isreal will react in their best interests. By themselves is no problem. The best we can hope is that Iran stands by their word. Iranian power plants great. Iran nuclear...........not good.

[Nickdfresh]

Thank's George Eller for information.
White Phosphorous bombs were forbided by the Convention of UN in 1980 which USA unsigned . Do somebody know, why USA not signed it?
This wearpon is very rough and terrible. In place of explosion of WP-bomb people die in circle of 150-200 metres.
The victims of WF has a tupical chemical burns.
Here's a some photos:
http://www.beseder.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2005/11/1131444306.jpg
http://www.beseder.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2005/11/1131444381.jpg
http://www.beseder.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2005/11/1131444132.jpg
Falluji, 2003
What's interesting - first time Pentagon denied the fact of application of WF in Iraq.
Italian TV channel RAI showed the film about it.
Although WF was not determined as the chemical wearpon it terrible effect is very simular and UN forbid it. Certainly UN not the law for the US. It's obviously US has own standarts of war. ;)
I know the point exist: this is the war with terrorism and any humanity is the weakness. OK i understand.
But by this way the sentence of Saddam for 148 shiits look cynically..Not because he is good guy, certainly he deserved the punishment.


Oh yes , my stupid , If WF was used in Grozny then US has lawful right to use it in Iraq. Is it your logic? :)
And i hope you understand if you will not give the evidence that "every fourth or fifth round fired in Grozny" was a WF you will look like an idiot not only in my eyes.
P.S. And where is your "1st of foot" ?;)

Cheers.

Funny, but you only complain and post about the US "using it" as if we were the only nation in the world that did.

And, would you prefer that Iraqi insurgents be killed by high explosive over white phosphorus? Is there a "kinder, gentler" way of killing?

And as I have stated, the Russian Air Force has used thermobolic bombs designed to suffocate and burn Chechen insurgents in their deep "hide-out" caves, yet you seem to bristle at any mention of this. I'm also pretty certain that the Russian military uses WP in Chechnya, but it's not cruel or inhuman when Russians do it, is it Chevan???
Interesting...

And also you comments on Hussein being tried and convicted for killing only 148 Kurds (not Shiites) belies an inability to understand that the prosecution was merely making a tangible murder case as a symbolic representation of Saddam's overall brutality.

[Nickdfresh]

So this is the war without the rules Sandworm?
And if you not play in Geneva rules then is you better the extremists? Don't forget the extremist the justify shahids and killing the hostages ( by cut off the neck) becouse they see as "coalition" soldiers murdered its womens and children. This cruel war can continie endless.

Chevan, I hate the US occupation of Iraq, but it is far from "lawless." As we speak, US soldiers are being tried for killing prisoners and the rape of a 14-year old girl, and the hideous actions at Abu Ghraib. So, there is in fact a strictly observed application of military law there, and just because you don't like WP doesn't make it "illegal."

OK, your position is "if we will play on rules we lost the war" Is not it?
And we must to fight by any methods? MAy be you right. But why it's needed to sentense Saddam for killing of 148 shiits (were they a real civilians or not)- this is look cinically for other islam nations, becouse probably US killed more shiits in Falluji just for one day!!!
Indeed i good understand your point. It was absolutly clear in Chechnij for me. The relatives of chechens who was killed during the first war 1994-1996 easy will agree to be shahids later during the second war. And we could avoid the much of terrorist attack, but the disision of Yeltsin command of oligarchs to enter the demoralised Russian army in 1994 in Chechnij not thought so.
I believe in 1994 we had the other ability to #### the chechen bandits ( as example make the problems for Chechens diaspora in Moscow). But those oligarh bas... (by the way with jewish families) prefered to make a money on the war.

Oh look, more conspiratorial anti-Semitic horseshit. :rolleyes:

Well you must ask yourself what realy do US-Coalition in Iraq?
If they do it for oil - this is senseless becouse the world oil price grow up in 3 times (!)since the invasion.
If they do it for democtacy and against Islam world extremism - thet's OK i'm supported them. But why US decided to strike on Iraq??
As may be you know the oil islam states like Saudy Aravia, Iordan and ets officialy sended the money to the extremists ( they call it the "help for the supporting of Islam"). Using this money extremists has the war agains not-islam peoples including the western civilians). So why so rich and radical islamic states are "friend" of USA but poorest Iraq ( cause of 10 years sanctions) was cynicaly called as "enemy of western civilization". And CIA outrageously lied about the Iraq's mass-destruction wearpon till invasion.
I'm supported the J.Bush when he called to fight against islam extremism, but instead of to create realy strong coalition in Europe, US prefered the "particular" interest - to crush the personal american enemy Saddam and take its oil. What's geniuslly!!
I think this can be good just for Israel - nobody else.
Now after the losing of election in US the "war party" - the Republicans, its seem US will forced to withdraw the troops (early or later) from Iraq And i'm very worry for the perspective in Iraq becouse may be you know :
"What don't kill us - make us stronger".
Hence islamic extremists could take the power again and now it will be not Saddam regime - much worst.

Cheers

The US struck Iraq for: A.) Oil B.) Irrational, misapplied fear after 9/11 and the need to punish and lash out at a nation-state other than lowly Afghanistan C.) Bush's personal vendetta against Saddam for the attempted assassination of his father D.) to enrich politically connected business interests such as Halliburton E.) and finally, the grandiose, horrifically naive' assertion that one could just instantly remake a flawed nation-state with ethnically and tribally diverse populations into an insta-democracy™...

[George Eller]

And also your [Chevan] comments on Hussein being tried and convicted for killing only 148 Kurds (not Shiites) belies an inability to understand that the prosecution was merely making a tangible murder case as a symbolic representation of Saddam's overall brutality.
-

I noticed that too.

-

Iraq: Kurds Collect Evidence For More Cases Against Hussein
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/01/a5bf8e58-f53e-4143-83c6-dd20fe7c1a53.html

Saddam Hussein is standing trial for just one of many crimes. Like many Iraqis, the Kurdish Regional Government wants other cases brought against the former dictator -- and it is busy gathering the evidence against him.

IRBIL, 24 January 2006 (RFE/RL) -- Former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and his seven co-defendants are currently standing trial only for the killing laughter in 1982 of some 140 Shi'ite men and boys from the village of Al-Dujayl, an act of reprisal for an assassination attempt there on the former dictator.

Iraqi prosecutors have often said they have enough evidence against Hussein for at least 12 trials.

"We bribe some people, we share documents with some people, we stay in the deserts and some other parts of the country for three or four weeks to gather as much information as we can."

But they have chosen to try him first for the Al-Dujayl killings because it is the strongest case and -- they say -- sure to lead to conviction.

If it does, it remains uncertain whether the court will sentence Saddam to immediate punishment -- possibly to death -- or delay his punishment in order to conduct other trials.

A Casebook Barely Opened

Many Iraqis are very keen for further trials. Just ask Muhammad Ihsan, minister for human rights for the Kurdish Regional Government and leader of a team that is locating and excavating the mass graves of thousands of Kurdish victims of Hussein's crackdowns, forced displacements, and reprisals.

Between 1979 and Hussein's ouster, roughly half a million Kurds were picked up by Iraqi security forces and never returned, Ihsan says.

"We have been searching for missing people for a long, long time, since 1991," he says. "But we started the active searching process after the liberation of Iraq."

He believes the families of the Kurdish victims want to know the fate of their loved ones and to bring to justice those who killed them.

So Ihsan, whose ministry is located in Irbil, spends a considerable amount of the year traveling across Iraq. He and a small team of forensic experts regularly drive to areas where they believe mass graves may be located.

He says the team of nine -- a figure that includes security experts -- locates grave sites by combing through eyewitness accounts, documents, and survivors' accounts that today may already be decades old.

But trying to exhume a grave site itself can present even greater problems.

"For so many reasons," he says, locals are frequently unhelpful and uncooperative. One reason is that they do not have enough information. Another is that "they are afraid because most of them were part of that crime."

Breaking through such barriers is "very hard. We bribe some people, we share documents with some people, we stay in the deserts and some other parts of the country for three or four weeks to gather as much information as we can."

Ihsan says his team always works undercover, without revealing its connections to the Kurdish Regional Government or that it is collecting criminal evidence.

Still, the exhumation effort has made progress: the bodies of victims have been returned to their home villages in northern Iraq.

"We [have] started returning bodies to Kurdistan," Ihsan says. "We managed to get 512 bodies [of members of the Barzani clan] that had been killed by Saddam Hussein in 1983."

These are just some of the over 8,000 male members of the Barzani clan arrested in July 1983 by Saddam's security force. Seized in the northern province of Irbil, they were then transported to southern Iraq. Nothing has been heard of them since.

Cases Unopened, Wounds Unclosed

This slaughter of the Barzani clan is one of a dozen cases for which prosecutors say they have enough evidence to convict Saddam.

Another case centers on the massive forced displacement of the Kurdish population between February and September 1988 -- known as the Anfal (Arabic for "spoils") campaign -- which left tens of thousands of people dead.

Still another case focuses separately on the use of mustard and nerve gas against residents of the Kurdish town of Halabjah in August 1988, during the Anfal campaign.

Other cases include Saddam's invasion of Kuwait in 1990, the crushing of the Kurdish and Shi'ite rebellions after the 1991 Gulf War, and the killing of political activists over the course of three decades.

Returning bodies is the most painful part of his work, Ihsan says. It re-opens wounds that are decades old and may have partially healed. But he says the families want to have at lease a bone or a piece of cloth that they can bury and create a proper grave for their loved ones.

For others, the wounds have not healed. "The unknown fate [of a loved one] creates big social and economic problems for us," Ihsan says. "We have some girls who've been engaged for more than 23 years. Still they are waiting for their beloved. We have wives still waiting for their husbands. We have daughters still waiting for their fathers to return. We were sure that [the missing] had been killed but these people did not believe it. Returning the bodies to them will put an end to their sad lives [of waiting] and the pain."

So far, the team has located 284 sites of mass graves of Kurds across Iraq. With time, it hopes to exhume them all.

Ihsan says that he wants to see Hussein finally go on trial for all the cases against him. But he says that, so far, he has received no official word of whether there will be new court proceedings once the Al-Dujayl case is completed.

"We are presenting our evidence to the courts so they have it available," he says. Beyond that, it is up to the judicial authorities themselves to decide what to do.

-

killer file

Saddam Hussein
http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/hussein.html

Kill tally: Approaching two million, including between 150,000 and 340,000 Iraqis and between 450,000 and 730,000 Iranians killed during the Iran-Iraq War. An estimated 1,000 Kuwaiti nationals killed following the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. No conclusive figures for the number of Iraqis killed during the Gulf War, with estimates varying from as few as 1,500 to as many as 200,000. Over 100,000 Kurds killed or "disappeared". No reliable figures for the number of Iraqi dissidents and Shia Muslims killed during Hussein's reign, though estimates put the figure between 60,000 and 150,000. (Mass graves discovered following the US occupation of Iraq in 2003 suggest that the total combined figure for Kurds, Shias and dissidents killed could be as high as 300,000). Approximately 500,000 Iraqi children dead because of international trade sanctions introduced following the Gulf War.

-

Murdered/Killed by Saddam Hussein
http://freedomspeace.blogspot.com/2006/09/murderedkilled-by-saddam-hussein.html

Anonymous left a "comment" on one of my blogs asking:
Do you have any idea how many people Saddam Hussein is alleged to have killed? I recall a statement by Allawi putting it at 1 million.

I've not done the kind of systematic collection of democide statistics for Saddam Hussein's rule that I did for all countries from 1900-1987, although I have paid attention to the statistics that have been mentioned with regard to its human cost. There are two parts to this--the number of deaths he is responsible for in the bloody war he launched against Iran in 1980 and that lasted until 1988, and the deaths caused by his invasion and occupation of Kuwait in 1990. The consensus seems to be that 1,000,000 people overall were killed.

Then there is the question of how many of his own people--Kurds, Shiites, Sunnis, opponents, dissidents, and others he murdered (democide). The figures vary widely, but I believe a conservative estimate would also be 1,000,000.

If there are good solid estimates you know about, please let me know about them and their sources, and I will publish them here.

-

[Chevan]

Funny, but you only complain and post about the US "using it" as if we were the only nation in the world that did.

And, would you prefer that Iraqi insurgents be killed by high explosive over white phosphorus? Is there a "kinder, gentler" way of killing?

Hi Nickdfresh , nice to meet you again :)
Indeed you couldn't to know what kind of death is more awful. To be killed by the high explosive or the WP. There is no any "kinder, gentler" way of killing the peoples.
But we are the civilisation and we have the certain rules. And if our rules has the selective action how we will get the example for other low-developed nations?


And as I have stated, the Russian Air Force has used thermobolic bombs designed to suffocate and burn Chechen insurgents in their deep "hide-out" caves, yet you seem to bristle at any mention of this. I'm also pretty certain that the Russian military uses WP in Chechnya, but it's not cruel or inhuman when Russians do it, is it Chevan???
Interesting...

Really interesting ...
You try to compare the civilians in city of Falluji with Chechen in their deep caves.
Who are stay in caves Nick? May be chechen peacefull geologists?
And yes Russian Air force used the vacuum bombs ( not the WP) in mountain.
Indeed Russian "fifth column" worked much more effective till 1999 than Russian army in Chechnj. If juct army would try to use something unhuman or forbiden means in the Chechens cities or the villiges than our "independent" mass-media will be squeal than even the Moon you could hear it.During the First war 1994-1996 terrorists had the such powerfull information support among the "fifth column" that even the attack to the civil hospital in Byddenovsk was presented as the "act of resistence" by the "independen" TV-canals.


And also you comments on Hussein being tried and convicted for killing only 148 Kurds (not Shiites) belies an inability to understand that the prosecution was merely making a tangible murder case as a symbolic representation of Saddam's overall brutality.
Nickdfresh , Kurds are the shiites.
And i never justified the Saddam. Certainly he deserve the punishment.
But i think it's the strange that during decades of "Saddam's overall brutality" were killed less peoples than after the invasion in 2003.

[Chevan]

Chevan, I hate the US occupation of Iraq, but it is far from "lawless." As we speak, US soldiers are being tried for killing prisoners and the rape of a 14-year old girl, and the hideous actions at Abu Ghraib. So, there is in fact a strictly observed application of military law there, and just because you don't like WP doesn't make it "illegal."

Who did you say i don't like the WP?
Simple WP is the excellent for the illumination and merceting of the position.
The Plasticized WP ( with caoutchouc) is the very effective the incendiary wearpon like and napalm.
But the application of any inscendiary wearpon was limited by Geneva protocol in cities and viliges.

Oh look, more conspiratorial anti-Semitic horseshit. :rolleyes:

It's not conspiratorial , just simple coincide :rolleyes::rolleyes:


The US struck Iraq for: A.) Oil B.) Irrational, misapplied fear after 9/11 and the need to punish and lash out at a nation-state other than lowly Afghanistan C.) Bush's personal vendetta against Saddam for the attempted assassination of his father D.) to enrich politically connected business interests such as Halliburton E.) and finally, the grandiose, horrifically naive' assertion that one could just instantly remake a flawed nation-state with ethnically and tribally diverse populations into an insta-democracy™...
So what's US will have after the leaving of Iraq:
A. forget about oil.
B. "Iraqi psyhologic syndrome" ( like Vietnam)
C. Instead of Saddam it will be the worst islam extremist regime.
D. Lost all of the billions (about 400) dollars which were invested to the Iraq.
E. Fully agree with your E- statement.
This will be the single resault of "operation iraq freedom".

Cheers.

[Firefly]

Yet another thread hijacked away from purpose!

Grrr, why dont you start your own Iraq War thread, I'm sure loads of guys will want to contribute to that?

Saddam was a bit naughty I think and although I wouldnt personnaly execute him and turn him into a Martyr, whatever the elected Iraqi Government want to do with him is OK by me. After all, in Saudi they still cut peoples heads off and no one bothers about that, do they!

[Gen. Sandworm]

Yet another thread hijacked away from purpose!

Grrr, why dont you start your own Iraq War thread, I'm sure loads of guys will want to contribute to that?


We have started a bit off topic here.........would you all like to see a Iraq war forum such as the others ive made. If your interested please PM me!

[ArmyDude1973]

will thats good to here but i have a qustion. about bin ladden if they find him will he get the same death penilty im not here to diss the americans but if books i read are right when the russian went after the iraq the americans sent people and arms there. the u s a could not be in that combat so they had bin laden to make a military force to combat the russian army.and usa traned them as well so what would happen to bin laden i dont agree with that senseless act that hes tied to on sep 11 in new york but if u s a did not train his men i feel we would not be in this iraq thing to day im sorey to the usa for this post and as i said before im not here to diss the people of usa im just worndering if that would be right or not i would like some in sight on this.

[Firefly]

Bin Laden is in Afghanistan, Iraq is a totally different and unrelated affair.

Oh BTW Mr Hussein is no more since this morning.

[1000ydstare]

Ding dong the witch is dead!!!!

[Chevan]

Ding dong the witch is dead!!!!

And what's then .....

[1000ydstare]

Er, it is a bit of delight that Saddam has been slotted.

(I appreciate the actual subject of the topic has, shall we say, swayed a bit.)

That song in full.

Ding Dong! The Witch is dead. Which old Witch? The Wicked Witch!
Ding Dong! The Wicked Witch is dead.

Wake up - sleepy head, rub your eyes, get out of bed.
Wake up, the Wicked Witch is dead. She's gone where the goblins go,
Below - below - below. Yo-ho, let's open up and sing and ring the bells out.
Ding Dong' the merry-oh, sing it high, sing it low.
Let them know
The Wicked Witch is dead!

Obviously there is no evidence that Saddem was ever in to witchcraft or even a witch, but I thought the song a good one.

[Chevan]

Er, it is a bit of delight that Saddam has been slotted.



I mean you delight about his execution. ;)
How it shoudl improve the situation in Iraq now..

[1000ydstare]

Well to be honest it couldn't make it worse.

A bomb for the killing of Saddam would do the same damage as a bomb for taking him off to the Hague or similar to rot next to Slobadon.

Edit to add.

To be honest I would prefer him to spend the rest of his life eating Bacon sandwiches for breakfast, making pig ear purses and having a nice sausage sanny for tea.

[BDL]

Was highly amused when I woke this morning to find that tw*t was dead. Fantastic.

[George Eller]

-

Hasta La Bye Bye

Finally :)

-

[Nickdfresh]

I mean you delight about his execution. ;)
How it shoudl improve the situation in Iraq now..

Good points...

[1000ydstare]

They are not strictly points there.

[ArmyDude1973]

well hes dead so the usa. think and why i say that. number 1 in the 1800s u see people hanged they dont have any thing around the neck just bare skin when he was hanged there was a black tunick around hes neck so i think hes alive though hes the terror of the middle east the usa only were there so no one could try to get him out they were already there and put some thinging in the tunick

[Chevan]

Good points...
What's mean good points.
Do you support of Saddame execution? You wrote you so hate the US-Iraq war befor.

[1000ydstare]

Armydude

The black cloth around the neck is a new one on me, but sincerly doubt it would protect him from hanging. Micheal J. Fox was "hung" in one of hte back to the future movies, with no neckerchief, but still survived by the knot being not a noose (although looked like one) and a harness to keep him off the loop.

However for you last post you win the covetted 1000ydstare foil hat award... enjoy.
http://photos18.flickr.com/24167787_b663f04f68_m.jpg

Edit to add.

Remember kids 1000ydstare say, never post drunk....
http://www.choosetheforce.com/images/chuck/feb14_06/drunk.jpg

[1000ydstare]

And don't have too much sugar for breakfast....
http://www.rantrhino.com/rant/2006/may/21_suger_cereal.jpg

[SS Tiger]

Was the hanging filmed? I heard on the news the actual part where he was hanged was not broadcast, which makes me a little suspect.



Either way it makes little difference to Iraq, just another badge for G.W. Bush's cub scout uniform. I bet he'll put it right next to the "helping old ladies across the road" badge!

[1000ydstare]

I have seen the hanging bit online, you can find it for yourself though :D

[Nickdfresh]

What's mean good points.
Do you support of Saddame execution? You wrote you so hate the US-Iraq war befor.

I mean it's not going to change things much. The US suffered the highest death toll of the year in December, and the month's not even out yet.

Though, Saddam was a murderer who received pretty much what he got.

[Nickdfresh]

Does anyone think the Shiites were going to let him out alive? A good conspiracy theory should at least make a little sense...

[SS Tiger]

I have seen the hanging bit online, you can find it for yourself though :D

If it's the video I have seen they you don't see him hang, you see him drop ,but he drops out of frame before the noose pulls tight. Then the camara goes all over the place and points at the floor for a while, so you never see him hanged. The final bit is him lying on the floor with the noose around his neck.

For a bit of video that is supposed prove that him is dead it's very poor, it leaves the door open for all the conspiracys.

[1000ydstare]

The one i saw was poor, but there you go. You see him hanging in it too. Although not the drop.

[VonWeyer]

Saw it too.
Apparently it was taken with a mobile phone.

[mike M.]

I think there is better footage and it will eventually come out.

[Lancer44]

I think there is better footage and it will eventually come out.

Friend of mine which spent the last 35 years of his life as a stuntman in over 100 movies, said the same... He was hanged 6 times...
(We just had a few drinks talking about Saddam.)

"Soon we will see Saddam twisting on the rope and shitting his pants. He may even have an erection - quite common in situation like that..."

But everything need time. Digital wizards need time!
Anyway footage looks very suspicious... Black scarf... Unusually thick rope and noose...
The whole shit more theatrical than Mel Brooks crap...

Cheers,

Lancer44

[1000ydstare]

Before the consipiracy theory gets to out of hand.

Point to note. The place where he was killed was a place that he HAD used to kill members of the very party who are now in power. Those that hung him were his enemies, and held very little love of him.

Do you still think he has been taken somewhere else? If so it is for a far worse execution.

[VonWeyer]

I do think that it is original and do agree that eventually better footage will be avaliable.

[PLT.SGT.BAKER]

Nah I think the footage was real, it takes a master and a long time to make a fake if it was. Besides with todays technology, you can tell if it's real or not by the pixels.

[PLT.SGT.BAKER]

I saw it on youtube.

[GermanSoldier]

Vrlo dobro, Hrvate!!

What, will you tell us in english.

[GermanSoldier]

So i hawe to thank first Hg for uploading some pictures and helping me !Thanks!So hier is my masterpice for now a russian counter attack near Stalingrad hope you like it ;)

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n45/strina1/Sasprijedaruska.jpg



And one more from up

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n45/strina1/saboka.jpg


Please fell free to comment weather you like it or not

Did you make that or get it of the internet. It looks cool.

[Lancer44]

Did you make that or get it of the internet. It looks cool.

Dear Indiana Kid,

Such question is insulting and offensive...
Strina-Croatia is our Forum member and he would never show any diorama or model not made by himself...
There are some rules on this Forum regarding Copyright, ownership and simply ethical.
Of course in some instances Moderators can ask questions if in doubt.

You are rather new and your questions may offend.
Please refrain from them in the future.

Regards,

Lancer44

[Dani]

Apologies for not tracking those hundreds of posts of a 12 year child.

Since Panzerknacker already gave him 2 infraction points I'll made public my single informal warning:

GermanSoldier, if you'll post only once remarks like above, I'll delete all your useless posts and give you several infraction posts. Be aware that you are closer than you may think to end as a banned user. As you are too young to contribute, please read and learn.
Thank you.


Edited: Deleting tons of useless posts as we speak. That's a fact.

[Strina-Croatia]

Thank you Lancer and Dani for reacting!!!!I cant belive what people ask when you want to show and share your work with somebody!

[Panzerknacker]

Just continue your good job and dont get annoyed bt this. :rolleyes: