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Nickdfresh
09-27-2006, 08:44 PM
Ukraine Nazi Massacre Remembered
Ukrainian, Jewish Leaders Gather at Babi Yar Ravine to Mark 65th Anniversary of Nazi Massacre
By NATASHA LISOVA
The Associated Press

KIEV, Ukraine - Bells gently tolled as Ukrainian and foreign dignitaries on Wednesday commemorated the 65th anniversary of the Nazi massacre of Jews at the Babi Yar ravine, placing flower-encircled candles at the foot of a giant monument to the tens of thousands of victims.

Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko and Israeli President Moshe Katsav led the solemn procession behind an honor guard of Ukrainian soldiers carrying a garland of white flowers.

Hundreds of mourners many Jews who had traveled from around the world watched, clutching their own offerings of red and white carnations. Some carried small stones, which Jews traditionally leave at grave sites as a sign of respect.

"For me, it is not just memories," said Dina Maydanyk, 74, whose three brothers died in the Holocaust. "It's a horror."

The massacre began on Sept. 29, 1941, when Soviet Kiev's Nazi occupiers ordered all Jews to report to a ravine on the outskirts of town.

The Jews thought they would be taken to a ghetto, and Kiev residents recalled their Jewish neighbors lugging their most valuable belongings out to the ravine.

But when they got there, the Jews were forced to undress and gather in lines along the ravine's steep embankment. There, the Nazis machine-gunned down the crowd, killing at least 33,771 over 48 hours. In the ensuing months, the number of people killed at Babi Yar grew to more than 100,000.

"I saw how the Germans were laughing and joking when they looked at the people they were bringing to their death," said Nina Isayeva, 82, who came to pay tribute to the victims. "What barbarians they were."

Moshe Kantor, founder of the World Holocaust Forum that is organizing the events, said that the world's silence after Babi Yar emboldened the Nazis to embark on their "final solution" of death camps that ultimately killed six million European Jews.

The exact death toll at Babi Yar remains unknown. The Nazi executioners recorded the number of Jews killed in the first two days, but there are no exact records of subsequent killings. In 1943, as the Red Army approached to free Ukraine, the Nazis ordered Jewish prisoners to dig up the corpses and burn them.

For decades, the Soviets maintained silence about what happened in Babi Yar. Only after Russian poet Yevgeny Yevtushenko drew international attention to the massacre with his 1961 poem "Babi Yar," did the Soviets put up a towering monument of twisted and tormented figures. It did not mention Jews, however. It wasn't until 1991, as the Soviet Union began to crumble, that Jews were allowed to erect a menorah near another part of the ravine.

Today, the ravine is part of a popular park, and Jewish leaders say they are frustrated that children still play soccer and couples picnic where tens of thousands were massacred.

Wednesday's commemorations were being held at the Soviet memorial, although the Jewish community held an earlier private ceremony at the menorah across the park.

Copyright 2006 ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2496802) Internet Ventures


Lest we forget.

Chevan
09-28-2006, 04:35 AM
KIEV, Ukraine - Bells gently tolled as Ukrainian and foreign dignitaries on Wednesday commemorated the 65th anniversary of the Nazi massacre of Jews at the Babi Yar ravine, placing flower-encircled candles at the foot of a giant monument to the tens of thousands of victims.

Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko and Israeli President Moshe Katsav led the solemn procession behind an honor guard of Ukrainian soldiers carrying a garland of white flowers.

Hundreds of mourners many Jews who had traveled from around the world watched, clutching their own offerings of red and white carnations. Some carried small stones, which Jews traditionally leave at grave sites as a sign of respect.

"For me, it is not just memories," said Dina Maydanyk, 74, whose three brothers died in the Holocaust. "It's a horror."

The massacre began on Sept. 29, 1941, when Soviet Kiev's Nazi occupiers ordered all Jews to report to a ravine on the outskirts of town.

The Jews thought they would be taken to a ghetto, and Kiev residents recalled their Jewish neighbors lugging their most valuable belongings out to the ravine.

But when they got there, the Jews were forced to undress and gather in lines along the ravine's steep embankment. There, the Nazis machine-gunned down the crowd, killing at least 33,771 over 48 hours. In the ensuing months, the number of people killed at Babi Yar grew to more than 100,000.

"I saw how the Germans were laughing and joking when they looked at the people they were bringing to their death," said Nina Isayeva, 82, who came to pay tribute to the victims. "What barbarians they were."

Moshe Kantor, founder of the World Holocaust Forum that is organizing the events, said that the world's silence after Babi Yar emboldened the Nazis to embark on their "final solution" of death camps that ultimately killed six million European Jews.

.

. Only after Russian poet Yevgeny Yevtushenko drew international attention to the massacre with his 1961 poem "Babi Yar," did the Soviets put up a towering monument of twisted and tormented figures. It did not mention For decades, the Soviets maintained silence about what happened in Babi YarJews, however. It wasn't until 1991, as the Soviet Union began to crumble, that Jews were allowed to erect a menorah near another part of the ravine.

Today, the ravine is part of a popular park, and Jewish leaders say they are frustrated that children still play soccer and couples picnic where tens of thousands were massacred.

Wednesday's commemorations were being held at the Soviet memorial, although the Jewish community held an earlier private ceremony at the menorah across the park.

Copyright 2006 ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2496802) Internet Ventures


Lest we forget.

Hi Nick.
Nice to meet you again ;)
All what you wrote is just tupical "Holocaust-industry propoganda".


The exact death toll at Babi Yar remains unknown. The Nazi executioners recorded the number of Jews killed in the first two days, but there are no exact records of subsequent killings.
Thats just single true in all of this text. :(
Modern "exact number" change from "tens of thousands" to the "150 000".


In 1943, as the Red Army approached to free Ukraine, the Nazis ordered Jewish prisoners to dig up the corpses and burn them

Yea , just "dig up and bun" - too simple explanation where disappeared hundreds thousands of bodies. Look like Aushwitz-2.


For decades, the Soviets maintained silence about what happened in Babi Yar

Nick , this is bullshit .
My dad studied in soviet school in 1953-63 and from 3 class good knew the soviet version ( very magniful - about 300 000 or even 500 000 victims ) of Babi Yar. This was a "importaint part of soviet propoganda". Like Aushwitz (Osvencim) - 4 millions "mythical" victims.
With single exception - the f..ng soviet propogandists never told about jews , they told about "soviet citizens".
Do you feel the difference - they wish that all nations of USSR hated the germans like it did jews.

Certainly Babiy Yar is the devil place of murduring many's peoples. And of couse it need a memorial.
But lie about Holocaust ("hundreds thousands" in Kiev or the "millions" in Aushwitz) this just the reason of hostinity to the jews (mostly normal and intelligent people) from the other nations.

This is tupical position of pro-jewish world mass-media.
Who do talk today about million's really perished civil of East-european native peoples: Russians, Poles , Belorussian and Ukrains from the fasists hands( espesially SS-commands).
Just sometimes could hear about 2 millions soviets soldiers who died in terrible conditions in fashists camps (where did look this f...g Red Cross).
Thanks to our polish friends we learned the terrible details of henocide during Warsaw uprising , where were perished about 200 000 peoples ( much more then in Babi Yar).
Has the somebody day-remember of this tragedy except the poles?
No.
But every year all the world listen the accusations from the jews


Moshe Kantor, ... said that the world's silence after Babi Yar emboldened the Nazis to embark on their "final solution" ...

So Nick , your forefathers are guilty that "was silence about Babi Yar" and , consequently , in Holocaust.
It's strange ,Moshe Kantor don't worry about "world's silence" of gipsys henocide in Ukrain , Moldavia and Russia. Because this is "low rase" not the jews (like poles, russians, ukrains and other.)
Therefore , dear Nick, somebody must be ready to pay money for the jews.
Switszaland , Germany now the Poland will has the court claims with demands of money compensation to the jews.
Amazing, Jews is single nation which could be capable to make money from its native tragedy in WW2.

Cheers.

P.S.
On the case, if somebody would to name me as nazist or antisemite :
my grandfather was killed by fasists in 1942 and the family of my mom was on the face of hungry death during the Fascist occupation of my city Krasnodar(Northern Caucaus).
I haven't any illusions about national- socialism.

And one my close friend-jew told me about his interesting version of Holocaust-Bisness , just little part of compensation money get the real victim's familis. On his oppinion the lion's share of these money settles in the Jewish public and political organizations.
He very dislike this situation.

Lancer44
09-28-2006, 06:28 AM
Yea , just "dig up and bun" - too simple explanation where disappeared hundreds thousands of bodies. Look like Aushwitz-2.

Nick , this is bullshit .
My dad studied in soviet school in 1953-63 and from 3 class good knew the soviet version ( very magniful - about 300 000 or even 500 000 victims ) of Babi Yar. This was a "importaint part of soviet propoganda". Like Aushwitz (Osvencim) - 4 millions "mythical" victims.

I think that you all know me and my views a bit now and you remember and understand that I'm not too quick to agree with Chevan...

In this case I tend if not fully agree with Chevan then at least seriously think about what Chevan is saying. And discuss it.

1. Babi Yar existed in school textbooks in Poland and Soviet Union before 1961. I don't know and cannot say about other countries within soviet sphere of influence, but it is possible that there was similar situation.

2. Reduction of Auschwitz victims from 4 mln to, (officially today), 1.2 mln is a proven fact.

3. To burn one average human body about 200 kilograms of wood is needed.
Proven, objective fact - anyone can ask Hindu people, which are experts in this open pyre kind of cremation.
200 kg x 300,000 = please, take your calculator! DO IT YOURSELF!
200 kg x 500,000 = please, take your calculator! DO IT YOURSELF!

So how many rail cars full of wood were needed?
Where are Deutsche Bahn records about those trains?
Or maybe someone can show how many acres of forests were cut, seasoned and then used for cremation? Where these forests were?

4. Even after open pyre cremation most of the skeleton bones are still intact.
Weight of human skeleton is about 20% of the weight of an average human body.
Let's say that average human in nearly starved Ukraine weighed 65 kg...
and his skeleton 13 kg.

300,000 x 13 = Calculate, please weight of bones in tonnes. Where they are?
500,000 x 13 = Calculate, please weight of bones in tonnes. Where they are?

This are some questions which should be asked...

Regards,

Lancer44

P.S.

Just in case someone can say that I'm nazi , neo-nazi or antisemite:
1. My father was in the army fighting nazis from Spring 1939 to Spring 1947.
Yes , Polish army in Great Britain existed that long.
2. My mother and her brother were in Polish Underground, survived Warsaw Uprising. My uncle died in November 1944 after Uprising.
3. My best friend and boss is Jewish and his grand father died in Auschwitz.

L44

Jasa
09-28-2006, 06:39 AM
Leave it to the Jews to criticize the very same government that LITERALLY SAVED THEM FROM EXTERMINATION! Jews ought to remember that many other people in the USSR were killed because of their alleged political allegiances or ethnicity as well.

The 4 million figure at Auschwitz was simply a mistake because the Soviets did not know exactly when the operation of the gas chambers began. This figure was never taken as a serious estimate.

Nickdfresh
09-28-2006, 08:28 AM
Hi Nick.
Nice to meet you again ;)
All what you wrote is just tupical "Holocaust-industry propoganda".

Cheven, what's your beef with "American" Nazis then, you seem to have much in common with them. It's a pretty interesting contradiction...

It's pretty funny that you started a thread indicting American Nazi organizations, yet you cite the same "Jews control the media" myths as most contemporary Nazi orgs., which have often cited David Irving as the "true" Holocaust historian and had him as a speaker.

Maybe the "Ukrainian leaders" that were there were just lying too, huh?


Thats just single true in all of this text. :(
Modern "exact number" change from "tens of thousands" to the "150 000".

"150,000?" That number is never given in the text of this article. The only one changing numbers here is you. It actually states 33,000+ deaths were recorded, and "over" 100K were later killed!

Where did you get the "150,000?" Your ***? And the simple truth is that the Jews adn Communists were often killed first, and the other nationalities followed.

Here is exactly what the article says:



The massacre began on Sept. 29, 1941, when Soviet Kiev's Nazi occupiers ordered all Jews to report to a ravine on the outskirts of town...But when they got there, the Jews were forced to undress and gather in lines along the ravine's steep embankment. There, the Nazis machine-gunned down the crowd, killing at least 33,771 over 48 hours. In the ensuing months, the number of people killed at Babi Yar grew to more than 100,000.


Yea , just "dig up and bun" - too simple explanation where disappeared hundreds thousands of bodies. Look like Aushwitz-2.

Again, where does it say the bodies "disappeared?" Nobody is insinuating that the crime was covered up by making the bodies "disappear" by burning. When the bodies were dug up, most must have been in an advanced state of decomposition, they were hiding identities as much as anything. All that is said is that nearly 34,000 (presumably) Jews were killed in 48 hours, then 100,000 "people" (no exact ethnicity given) were later killed.

At least keep your latently anti-semitic comments based on the text..

Joe Stalin was good at making the bodies "disappear" too. I'm sure you have a problem with the Ukrainian gov't as well, since the dominant Soviet Russians wiped out a number of Ukrainian Nationalists in a pogrom that continued well after WWII. And by deliberately exascerbating a 1930s famine, to get rid of their Ukrainian enemies.


Nick , this is bullshit .
My dad studied in soviet school in 1953-63 and from 3 class good knew the soviet version ( very magniful - about 300 000 or even 500 000 victims ) of Babi Yar. This was a "importaint part of soviet propoganda". Like Aushwitz (Osvencim) - 4 millions "mythical" victims.
With single exception - the f..ng soviet propogandists never told about jews , they told about "soviet citizens".
Do you feel the difference - they wish that all nations of USSR hated the germans like it did jews.

And this has what bearing on the article? That there is no way to tell how many victims!

Excellent Inspector Clueso!

And what the **** does "Aushwitz," or the Holocaust in general, have to do with this massacre?


Certainly Babiy Yar is the devil place of murduring many's peoples. And of couse it need a memorial.

But if they're Jews, it either didn't happen, or their lives didn't mean as much I suppose. :rolleyes:


But lie about Holocaust ("hundreds thousands" in Kiev or the "millions" in Aushwitz) this just the reason of hostinity to the jews (mostly normal and intelligent people) from the other nations.

This is tupical position of pro-jewish world mass-media.

Thank you for encapsulating your Nazi-esque antisemitic paranoia and propaganda in one succinct paragraph about the typical "Jewish controlled media" bullshit. Goebbels would be proud. It's the same shit he used to demonize and isolate Jews from German society. BTW, if there was not Holocaust, where did the German Jews all go (the first to be killed)? There are almost none left, and I'm pretty sure you an verify that with pre-War Weimar censuses.


Who do talk today about million's really perished civil of East-european native peoples: Russians, Poles , Belorussian and Ukrains from the fasists hands( espesially SS-commands).

Then ****ing talk about it!! Whoever said you couldn't!! Do you have "atrocity envy" or something?

I post one article relevant to WWII about Jews massacred, and you turn it into some holocaust denier rant that goes far beyond anything in the article!

If you are upset over the loss of non-Jewish Slavic peoples to Nazi atrocities, then by all means post articles about massacres.



Just sometimes could hear about 2 millions soviets soldiers who died in terrible conditions in fashists camps (where did look this f...g Red Cross).

It didn't happen. It's all a communist myth. Only two dozen Soviet soldiers died. Then rest were killed upon return to the USSR for being cowards an surrendering. It's just a myth spun by the Russian controlled media.

Yeah, what about the German soldiers that were illegally held for over ten years after the war ended and used a slaves by the Soviet gov't?


Do they count as unrepresented "victims" too?


Thanks to our polish friends we learned the terrible details of henocide during Warsaw uprising , where were perished about 200 000 peoples ( much more then in Babi Yar).

Yeah, an uprising you apparently believe that the Soviet Red Army failed to assist and conveniently halted their advance. Maybe 200,000 wouldn't have died if they hadn't, right?


Has the somebody day-remember of this tragedy except the poles?
No.
But every year all the world listen the accusations from the jews

There have been several programs I have viewed on it. So yes, people do remember apparently.

I'm sorry a ****ing news article wasn't posted on it today.

Here's another article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/secondworldwar/story/0,,1864691,00.html

Maybe you're assisting the German's attempt to "rewrite history," no?


So Nick , your forefathers are guilty that "was silence about Babi Yar" and , consequently , in Holocaust.

Did I ever say they weren't? Maybe you're guilty of Holocaust denial?

And your "forefathers" killed far more unarmed civilians than mine ever did.


It's strange ,Moshe Kantor don't worry about "world's silence" of gipsys henocide in Ukrain , Moldavia and Russia. Because this is "low rase" not the jews (like poles, russians, ukrains and other.)
Therefore , dear Nick, somebody must be ready to pay money for the jews.
Switszaland , Germany now the Poland will has the court claims with demands of money compensation to the jews.
Amazing, Jews is single nation which could be capable to make money from its native tragedy in WW2.

And the Soviet Union didn't "profit" from it's victory by installing puppet states throughout Eastern Europe?

Riiiight! It's was an elaborate plan to sacrifice their people so they could make money.


Cheers.

**** you and your "cheers" troll.


P.S.
On the case, if somebody would to name me as nazist or antisemite :
my grandfather was killed by fasists in 1942 and the family of my mom was on the face of hungry death during the Fascist occupation of my city Krasnodar(Northern Caucaus).
I haven't any illusions about national- socialism.

No he wasn't. You're just making it up to get sympathy and money.


And one my close friend-jew told me about his interesting version of Holocaust-Bisness , just little part of compensation money get the real victim's familis. On his oppinion the lion's share of these money settles in the Jewish public and political organizations.
He very dislike this situation.

I have no idea what he means, but the actual payments are very small to individuals, and is mostly symbolic since German industry enjoyed and used victims as slave laborers.

It's amazing. You start threads claiming Americans have a special penchant for being Nazis, and attack the bombing of Dresden as some special atrocity committed in a War full of them. Yet you have the gaul to claim that a simple article I posted as just a topical piece I saw in the news is some sort of a Jewish conspiracy.

You're nothing but a troll... You're agenda is pretty clear here.

No wonder why Jews have left Russia for Israel in droves. Tell your friend he might want to too, since in another situation, you might be just as likely to turn him in. If he exists at all.


And BTW. I'm not Jewish (as far as I know), and in fact I have had stupid people insinuate that I am anti-semitic at other message boards.

Because I have denounced the Israeli attack on Lebanon (which I thought was both counterproductive and a blatant butchering of Lebanese civilians masked as strikes against targets) and have decried the mindless "no strings attached" American support for Israel; a state that in my opinion engages in what is basically Apartheid against Palestinians. But this shit about quibbling over numbers of Holocaust victims is just nauseating.

Nickdfresh
09-28-2006, 08:43 AM
Leave it to the Jews to criticize the very same government that LITERALLY SAVED THEM FROM EXTERMINATION! Jews ought to remember that many other people in the USSR were killed because of their alleged political allegiances or ethnicity as well.

I don't remember any Jews saying that people weren't killed for their ethnicity.

And I think you'll excuse the Jews if they mind discrimination, even from a gov't that fought the Nazis AFTER THEY WERE INVADED!


The 4 million figure at Auschwitz was simply a mistake because the Soviets did not know exactly when the operation of the gas chambers began. This figure was never taken as a serious estimate.

It was never taken as a serious estimate because it was too low!

Nickdfresh
09-28-2006, 08:56 AM
...
2. Reduction of Auschwitz victims from 4 mln to, (officially today), 1.2 mln is a proven fact.

By whom? What is your documentation for this?


3. To burn one average human body about 200 kilograms of wood is needed.
Proven, objective fact - anyone can ask Hindu people, which are experts in this open pyre kind of cremation.
200 kg x 300,000 = please, take your calculator! DO IT YOURSELF!
200 kg x 500,000 = please, take your calculator! DO IT YOURSELF!

Have you ever seen a crematorium first hand? They don't use wood! They probably used coke fired ovens.

Here' are some other articles to consider:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/body-disposal/

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/response-to-mattogno/

Chevan
09-28-2006, 02:04 PM
... I'm not Jewish (as far as I know)


what's your beef with "American" Nazis then, you seem to have much in common with them..

Everybody seen this , this is tupical jewish logic to blame opponent as nazi ;)
He even don't try to understand the something...
Just tribal jewish protective reaction :(
What's this slobbery hysterica means? Just one thing.
Nickdfrash , why do you try to lie that you are not the jew?

What's bad to be the jew? My friend-jew has no any problems about this and we are openly talk about Holocaust. And he has excellent feeling of humor...
But you is difficult situation with....:(


..**** you and your "cheers" troll.

you think if you are not intelligent jew that can to write simular words in forum ... mudak
Where do look our dear moderators ;)

Gen. Sandworm
09-28-2006, 02:14 PM
Ok sparks are starting to fly..........talk like adults or the mods will have to be mean. Trust me I alone have diffused more stressful situations than this one. So ill let it continue but act like you have sense.

When the hammer comes it comes hard. All I have to say.

Nickdfresh
09-28-2006, 02:44 PM
Everybody seen this , this is tupical jewish logic to blame opponent as nazi ;)
He even don't try to understand the something...
Just tribal jewish protective reaction :(
What's this slobbery hysterica means? Just one thing.
Nickdfrash , why do you try to lie that you are not the jew?

I'm not lying, I'm not a Jew. I do have Jewish relatives through marriage though... But again, ask for the links, and I shall provide! I have in fact attacked the policies of Israel for discriminating against Palestinians by evicting them, and using "ethnic cleansing" techniques in 1948, and "terrorist tactics" against British troops in order to gain independence.


What's bad to be the jew? My friend-jew has no any problems about this and we are openly talk about Holocaust. And he has excellent feeling of humor...
But you is difficult situation with....:(

Because you're denying the basic facts that have been corroborated through numerous sources! You repeat the arguments made by fascist sympathizers (Irving) unapologetically and deny that people were murdered wholesale because of their perceived ethnicity! It's unforgivable and a sin in my beliefs.

And I have very few beliefs at this point...


you think if you are not intelligent jew that can to write simular words in forum ... mudak
Where do look our dear moderators ;)

LOL@the first sentence, agree with the second. Shouldn't these ****headed trolls be banned? "Chevan" argues that Dresden was horrible 'war crime' and that idiot's dressing up as Nazis are a threat; yet he adopts many of their points of view. Indeed, where are the moderators?

Chevan
09-28-2006, 02:54 PM
By whom? What is your documentation for this?


Really , Lancer-mate how can you prove the number of 1.2 million jewish victims of Aushwitz?
I think the real number of perished in Aushwitz was no more the 500 000 and at least half of this number were the poles, russians and ukrains -not the jews. ;) ;)


Have you ever seen a crematorium first hand? They don't use wood! They probably used coke fired ovens.

They probably used the atomic energy..
...coke fired ovens in Babi Yar ...:(
You are the sick men, at first because you deny own nationality and in second - you reflexly try to support this bullshit without thinking.

Where did disappeare this ovens in 1943 when Red Army take back the Kiev? May be, it was dismantled and sent to the Auschwitz? ;)



Here' are some other articles to consider:

If you are not capable to think no articles will help you ...

Gen. Sandworm
09-28-2006, 02:58 PM
Chevan do you doubt the number of jews that were killed during the holocaust????? The number may shift slightly but i dont think to much........what is your estimate then?

Nickdfresh
09-28-2006, 03:11 PM
Really , Lancer-mate how can you prove the number of 1.2 million jewish victims of Aushwitz?
I think the real number of perished in Aushwitz was no more the 500 000 and at least half of this number were the poles, russians and ukrains -not the jews. ;) ;)

Yeah, keep hanging yourself idiot. And why would you give a shit about Poles or Ukrainians troll? You certainly haven't in any other response you made...


They probably used the atomic energy..
...coke fired ovens in Babi Yar ...:(
You are the sick men, at first because you deny own nationality and in second - you reflexly try to support this bullshit without thinking.

Who said anything about "ovens" at Babi Yar troll? And my nationality is American. I'm Catholic by birth actually if you must know! I'm denying what?

Again, I know you don't speak English well, but the basic facts are that they were killed by the Einsatzgruppen using bullets...


Where did disappeare this ovens in 1943 when Red Army take back the Kiev? May be, it was dismantled and sent to the Auschwitz? ;)


If you are not capable to think no articles will help you ...

WTF are you talking about? Read preceding post.

Chevan
09-28-2006, 03:16 PM
I'm not lying, I'm not a Jew. I do have Jewish relatives through marriage though... But again, ask for the links, and I shall provide! I have in fact attacked the policies of Israel for discriminating against Palestinians by evicting them, and using "ethnic cleansing" techniques in 1948, and "terrorist tactics" against British troops in order to gain independence.

You are much mistaken , certainly you has a great jewish potential ( except your "Fu....k" and same words). ;) ;)
Noway, don't try to consider your critic of Israel politic as providence of you not jewis origin



Because you're denying the basic facts that have been corroborated through numerous sources! You repeat the arguments made by fascist sympathizers (Irving) unapologetically and deny that people were murdered wholesale because of their perceived ethnicity! It's unforgivable and a sin in my beliefs.

Because this shit "numerous sources" were invented after the WW2 in attemption to make the germany as "scapegoat" for all of war violence (real and virtual).
Actually, after the "myth of Holoucaust" the "burning of Dresden" and Hirosima could seem to be just childish play...

I have own mind and don't repeat nobody. (F..k the Irving, i never knew about him till partisipation in the forum. There are numerous sources which are deny official version of Holocaust)
Just try to think a little.

Gen. Sandworm
09-28-2006, 03:20 PM
Noway, don't try to consider your critic of Israel politic as providence of you not jewis origin



Actually, after the "myth of Holoucaust" the "burning of Dresden" and Hirosima could seem to be just childish play...

There are numerous sources which are deny official version of Holocaust)
Just try to think a little.

1. Are you refering to me?
2. The "myth of Holoucaust" ??????
3. What are your sources?????????

Chevan
09-28-2006, 03:25 PM
Chevan do you doubt the number of jews that were killed during the holocaust????? The number may shift slightly but i dont think to much........what is your estimate then?
Yes i really doubt ,( and not jus me in this forum)) but we here discuss the Babi Yar .

Chevan
09-28-2006, 03:28 PM
Yeah, keep hanging yourself idiot. And why would you give a shit about Poles or Ukrainians troll? You certainly haven't in any other response you made...



Who said anything about "ovens" at Babi Yar troll? And my nationality is American. I'm Catholic by birth actually if you must know! I'm denying what?

Again, I know you don't speak English well, but the basic facts are that they were killed by the Einsatzgruppen using bullets...



WTF are you talking about? Read preceding post.

Try to look the stupid...
Lancer wrote about Babi Yar


. To burn one average human body about 200 kilograms of wood is needed.
Proven, objective fact - anyone can ask Hindu people, which are experts in this open pyre kind of cremation.
200 kg x 300,000 = please, take your calculator! DO IT YOURSELF!
200 kg x 500,000 = please, take your calculator! DO IT YOURSELF!

You answered him


Have you ever seen a crematorium first hand? They don't use wood! They probably used coke fired ovens.


So WTF the "coke fired ovens" were in Babi Yar , as...l

Gen. Sandworm
09-28-2006, 03:44 PM
Chevan do you doubt the number of jews that were killed during the holocaust????? The number may shift slightly but i dont think to much........what is your estimate then?


Yes i really doubt ,( and not jus me in this forum)) but we here discuss the Babi Yar .

WTF...........as in what the **** are you talking about and ???????????????????? You didnt answer this question and an another.

Chevan
09-28-2006, 03:49 PM
WTF...........as in what the **** are you talking about and ???????????????????? You didnt answer this question and an another.

Thanks for the explanation of WTF ;)
So what question did you mean?

Chevan
09-28-2006, 03:54 PM
1. Are you refering to me?

Certainly no , i have a discuss with Nick...


2. The "myth of Holoucaust" ??????

Myth of Holocaust is the 6 millions of victims. This not mean they it was 100 00 like Irving wrote but no more the 1-1.5 millions.


3. What are your sources?????????
Too much sources . But my main sourse is mind. Just simple calculation ( like Lancer did) and some facts.
Any more the questions Gen?

Firefly
09-28-2006, 04:59 PM
Make no mistake guys. At this site we acknowledge the recognised facts about the Holocaust in all its guises. To go against this you will have to provide some pretty good back up that is both renowned and sensible.

By all means speculate, but be prepared to back your arguments up as this is definately not a Nazi worship site like some others I wont mention.

Nickdfresh
09-28-2006, 09:13 PM
You are much mistaken , certainly you has a great jewish potential ( except your "Fu....k" and same words). ;) ;)
Noway, don't try to consider your critic of Israel politic as providence of you not jewis origin


Because this shit "numerous sources" were invented after the WW2 in attemption to make the germany as "scapegoat" for all of war violence (real and virtual).
Actually, after the "myth of Holoucaust" the "burning of Dresden" and Hirosima could seem to be just childish play...

Oh, is that your comeback? I must be a Jewy-Jewbag now?

Go drink some more vodka idiot. No wonder why Russia is a backwater of alcoholism, declining population, and crime despite once being one of the most powerful nations on earth, blessed with many natural resources. It must all be the Jews' fault I suppose, they do control the media afterall.:rolleyes:

You know, you'd actually have some credibility on some issues if you ever actually looked critically at the some of the bullshit the USSR was involved in rather than mindlessly defending all things Russian, oh, like killing more people than Hitler did.

Yes, there some shitty things the U.S. did, though you can argue these points since the U.S. didn't start the War, and more people would have been killed otherwise.

But this thread is about your anti-Semitism, we already have two intentionally inflamatory Hiroshima and Dresden threads. You should know, you started them.


I have own mind and don't repeat nobody. (F..k the Irving, i never knew about him till partisipation in the forum. There are numerous sources which are deny official version of Holocaust)
Just try to think a little.

Yeah.:rolleyes: Numerous sources, the vast majority of which like Irving have fascist sympathies. Any moron can put stuff on the internet and present it as a new "truth." And if you read my links, you'd see strong arguments that "Revisionists" actually aren't really denying anything. They're merely attempting to alter history by selectively shifting their morphing facts, after their arguments are exposed as lies one by one, whose main objective is to be apologists for the Nazis. There may indeed be a few Deniers that think they are searching for some hidden truth buried by a worldwide conspiracy. But I doubt there are many. Most are pretty easily exposed Hitler-sycophants such as Irving, engaged in a conspiracy of their own.

Nickdfresh
09-28-2006, 09:18 PM
Try to look the stupid...
Lancer wrote about Babi Yar

You answered him


So WTF the "coke fired ovens" were in Babi Yar , as...l

He was making a point about your comments regarding the Holocaust in general, not Babi Yar.

I was merely responding that even a noted Holocaust denier never claims that it took 200lbs. of wood to burn each body, it was more like 60lbs. of coke according to his stilted calculations.

I'm not the one turning a simple little article regarding a memorial commemoration into a huge fight thread. Who's the stupid one?

Nickdfresh
09-28-2006, 09:22 PM
Certainly no , i have a discuss with Nick...

Myth of Holocaust is the 6 millions of victims. This not mean they it was 100 00 like Irving wrote but no more the 1-1.5 millions.

Post your article for this, so I can **** it all to hell with actual logic please...


Too much sources . But my main sourse is mind. Just simple calculation ( like Lancer did) and some facts.
Any more the questions Gen?


"To many sources," at the American Neo-Nazi websites you frequent I take it.:rolleyes:

Nickdfresh
09-28-2006, 09:43 PM
And for ****'s sake! Stop reading your copy of the "Protocals of the Elders of Zion," (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion) that's utter shit contrived by Russian intelligence also...

Gen. Sandworm
09-28-2006, 11:12 PM
Make no mistake guys. At this site we acknowledge the recognised facts about the Holocaust in all its guises. To go against this you will have to provide some pretty good back up that is both renowned and sensible.

By all means speculate, but be prepared to back your arguments up as this is definately not a Nazi worship site like some others I wont mention.

Just backing up my mod!!!!!!

Lancer44
09-29-2006, 02:26 AM
He was making a point about your comments regarding the Holocaust in general, not Babi Yar.

I was merely responding that even a noted Holocaust denier never claims that it took 200lbs. of wood to burn each body, it was more like 60lbs. of coke according to his stilted calculations.

I'm not the one turning a simple little article regarding a memorial commemoration into a huge fight thread. Who's the stupid one?

To be honest by stating that 200kg of wood is needed to burn completely one body I meant not regular crematorias but open wood pyres.
What is puzzling for me that victims of Babi Yar and many more victims of Einsatzkommandos were allegadly first buried than exhumated and burned on open pyres.

Mass graves were spread through all Ukraine. What is puzzling me even more is that travelling through the area by train in 70's I could see no tree sometimes for an hour or so. Wood is scarce in those areas. So technically burning around 1.5 to 2 milion bodies is a big task. Logistically.

Going back to Auschwitz and number of victims. I lived in area about 60 km from Auschwitz for 28 years. Visited it twice with my mother. She had Jewish friends in Warsaw and they perished in Auschwitz.
I had seen with my own eyes memorial plaque stating 4 million victims.
Then in 1990 it suddenly become 1.5 million.
But total number of victims still stayed at 6 millions (I mean Jewish victims of the whole Holocaust).

I don't understand this logic. To deny Holocaust and murdering Jews by Germans is crazy. It was happening and my family had seen it in Warsaw.
I'm far from being denier or revisionist. But who can explain this disappearence of 2.5 million and still upheld 6 millions figure?

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/5199/ausplaq1948di2.gif (http://imageshack.us)

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/5959/ausplaq1990dx3.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Lancer44

Jasa
09-29-2006, 05:17 AM
Hey Nick, I debunk Holocaust revisionism as well but your comments are going too far. If I came on here talking about Jews or blacks the way you are talking about Russians I'd probably be banned, and rightfully so. The reason why Russia has problems today is primarily because they made the mistaking of BELIEVING a lot of assholes who said they would have "more freedom" under capitalism.

Believe me when the Russian, Ukrainian, and other Eastern European people finally get fed up with manipulation and Western liberal hypocrisy- you won't want to be in the general area.

Chevan
09-29-2006, 05:24 AM
Gentlemens , could somebody explane me this situation.
What i did?
May be insulted the samebody's patriotic fellings, did i said something worst about personally americans, jews or somebody else?
Where from did appear this words:


Troll...
**** you...
Go drink some more vodka idiot...
your fascist sympathies...
your anti-Semitism...

This hysteria look like i could insult the somebody's religiouse feelings.
Remember the Muhamed caricatures? ;) ;)

So what kind of religion this madman believe ?
He is lie that Catholic - he's sectant, he is "believer in Holocaust".
So why do need a spend time and destroy his "comfortable" religion.
I don't know.

If god wish to punish somebody , he go out its mind .:(




I don't understand this logic. To deny Holocaust and murdering Jews by Germans is crazy. It was happening and my family had seen it in Warsaw.
I'm far from being denier or revisionist. But who can explain this disappearence of 2.5 million and still upheld 6 millions figure?

Very demonstrated photo, mate.
Nobody is here don't deny the mass murdering Jews by germans.
Could it named by Holocaus - this is the personal matter of jews.
But you right think- figure of 6 millions victims is lie.

Cheers.

Jasa
09-29-2006, 05:36 AM
Chevan I personally knew a Holocaust-revisionist author and read a lot of their material. Many of them can make a good case, but I discovered serious flaws in their research. Before you believe the claims these people make, you must realize that they also have other theories such as "Hitler saved Europe from Stalins invasion" and other nonsense. It's ironic that much of the propaganda that the West promoted(and still promotes today) was very helpful to Holocaust revisionists who needed ways of proving that Hitler wasn't such a bad guy.

Jasa
09-29-2006, 05:49 AM
Before everyone starts bitching about Russians again, let's consider the SOURCE of most of the Holocaust revisionist propaganda...

Most of it is distributed via American or other Western organizations and websites like Stormfront, the National Alliance, National Vanguard, etc. In addition to this, Holocaust revisionists have made ample use of government-supported propaganda such as the Ukrainian famine in order to bolster their case. Of course the famine genocide was the product of Nazis and their sympathizers in the first place so this shouldn't be a surprise.

Chevan
09-29-2006, 06:34 AM
Believe me when the Russian, Ukrainian, and other Eastern European people finally get fed up with manipulation and Western liberal hypocrisy- you won't want to be in the general area.
I would to believe you :) ;)


Chevan I personally knew a Holocaust-revisionist author and read a lot of their material. Many of them can make a good case, but I discovered serious flaws in their research. Before you believe the claims these people make, you must realize that they also have other theories such as "Hitler saved Europe from Stalins invasion" and other nonsense. It's ironic that much of the propaganda that the West promoted(and still promotes today) was very helpful to Holocaust revisionists who needed ways of proving that Hitler wasn't such a bad guy.

I am not the revisionist Jasa.
And i never believed that "Hitler was a good boy" or he saved something.
And i never be the nazi.. Nazi scorned not just the jews but all of slav peoples as low-race.
But a am full of this slobbery Holocaust propoganda.
You don't listen this "not-jewish american catholic" please.

Mate, if you would to build the neo-socialism , good idea , i will help you as i can ...;)
And i would glad if the jews took active part in this....

Nickdfresh
09-29-2006, 07:21 AM
Hey Nick, I debunk Holocaust revisionism as well but your comments are going too far. If I came on here talking about Jews or blacks the way you are talking about Russians I'd probably be banned, and rightfully so. The reason why Russia has problems today is primarily because they made the mistaking of BELIEVING a lot of assholes who said they would have "more freedom" under capitalism.

Oh, as opposed to repeating the same old "Jews control the media" horseshit? Or America is full of Nazis, or it the western powers should be given special scrutiny for their actions in WWII whereas the Soviet advance was nothing but a glorious march of liberation? I seriously do wonder at the sanity and the most of the Russian posters here. There is clearly an agenda, and at least one poster, Chevan, almost appears to be a character controlled by two people.



Believe me when the Russian, Ukrainian, and other Eastern European people finally get fed up with manipulation and Western liberal hypocrisy- you won't want to be in the general area.

Actually it looks more like the Ukrainians and East Europeans have gotten more fed up with Russian manipulation.

Nickdfresh
09-29-2006, 07:22 AM
I would to believe you :) ;)

I am not the revisionist Jasa.
And i never believed that "Hitler was a good boy" or he saved something.
And i never be the nazi.. Nazi scorned not just the jews but all of slav peoples as low-race.
But a am full of this slobbery Holocaust propoganda.
You don't listen this "not-jewish american catholic" please.

Mate, if you would to build the neo-socialism , good idea , i will help you as i can ...;)
And i would glad if the jews took active part in this....

"Neo" or National Socialism you stupid drunk?

Kovalski
09-29-2006, 07:23 AM
Of course the famine genocide was the product of Nazis and their sympathizers in the first place so this shouldn't be a surprise.

You're talking about famine genocide in Ukraine in 1932-1933?
The product of Nazis?
Are you nuts?
The documents of NKVD that were disclosed in 2006 clearly confirm the fact that the famine genocide was a deliberate action of Soviet goverment taken in order to stifle ukrainian aspirations for independence, because they posed a threat to Soviet Union's unity.

Jasa
09-29-2006, 07:52 AM
Oh, as opposed to repeating the same old "Jews control the media" horseshit? Or America is full of Nazis, or it the western powers should be given special scrutiny for their actions in WWII whereas the Soviet advance was nothing but a glorious march of liberation?

When did anyone say that?



I seriously do wonder at the sanity and the most of the Russian posters here. There is clearly an agenda, and at least one poster, Chevan, almost appears to be a character controlled by two people.

Judging by the fact that this thread is actually about a NAZI massacre but everyone somehow managed to turn it into yet ANOTHER anti-Russian tirade I'd say there clearly is an agenda here.





Actually it looks more like the Ukrainians and East Europeans have gotten more fed up with Russian manipulation.

Of course it would look that way, to people who are completely ignorant about Ukrainian history. I was in America during the phony "Orange Revolution" and saw first hand the outright lies that were being told- PARTICULARLY the implication that Western Ukrainians are actually the majority when in fact the exact opposite is true.

Jasa
09-29-2006, 07:53 AM
You're talking about famine genocide in Ukraine in 1932-1933?
The product of Nazis?
Are you nuts?
The documents of NKVD that were disclosed in 2006 clearly confirm the fact that the famine genocide was a deliberate action of Soviet goverment taken in order to stifle ukrainian aspirations for independence, because they posed a threat to Soviet Union's unity.

Swing and a miss! Strike 3!

Nickdfresh
09-29-2006, 07:53 AM
To be honest by stating that 200kg of wood is needed to burn completely one body I meant not regular crematorias but open wood pyres.
What is puzzling for me that victims of Babi Yar and many more victims of Einsatzkommandos were allegadly first buried than exhumated and burned on open pyres.

Mass graves were spread through all Ukraine. What is puzzling me even more is that travelling through the area by train in 70's I could see no tree sometimes for an hour or so. Wood is scarce in those areas. So technically burning around 1.5 to 2 milion bodies is a big task. Logistically.

Going back to Auschwitz and number of victims. I lived in area about 60 km from Auschwitz for 28 years. Visited it twice with my mother. She had Jewish friends in Warsaw and they perished in Auschwitz.
I had seen with my own eyes memorial plaque stating 4 million victims.
Then in 1990 it suddenly become 1.5 million.
But total number of victims still stayed at 6 millions (I mean Jewish victims of the whole Holocaust).

I don't understand this logic. To deny Holocaust and murdering Jews by Germans is crazy. It was happening and my family had seen it in Warsaw.
I'm far from being denier or revisionist. But who can explain this disappearence of 2.5 million and still upheld 6 millions figure?

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/5199/ausplaq1948di2.gif (http://imageshack.us)

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/5959/ausplaq1990dx3.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Lancer44

As for burning the bodies at Babi Yar, no number is stipulated in the article. Mass graves presumably were found by Soviet authorities. But I'm unsure as to how they presented this. It is also not stipulated that the bodies were "cremated" to cremains; they were merely burned to hide identities and evidence I presume.



A simple Google search revealed that the number attributed to the Holocaust had never taken into account any specific numbers at Auschwitz and was based on a number generally agreed upon by historians, never based on a plaque:


Of course, as the Wiesenthal Center illustrates, it never was.

"Now recalling the Wiesenthal Center's claim that the overall 6,000,000 number of Jews never was based on a higher figure at Auschwitz and thus is still 6,000,000, after the revision of 4,000,000 down to 1,000,000, we can review the contradictory listing below to see if they are telling the truth or are in fact committing a blasphemy against the truth and are insulting the reader."

Here we see Moran, using his misrepresentation of what the Center said as a straw man argument, maliciously distorts the assertions of the Center. Conveniently ignored is that historians, for decades, have come to agreement that the death toll at Auschwitz-Birkenau was between 1-1.5 million (80-90% Jews) and the Jewish death toll of the Holocaust, including the deaths at Auschwitz, was around 6 million.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/m/moran-tom/lies/behold-the-liar.html

In fact, there was a movement in the 90s to revise the number upwards to about 6.5 million to account for the pre-Death Camp phase use of Einsatzgruppen (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/esg/) units to kill Jews, Communists, and political figures deemed enemies of German hegemony.

There was also a 1997 New York Times article (that I wish I could find online) that flatley stated that in fact, the Western Allies knew about the Holocaust much earlier than was generally thought, since in began basically. There had been persistent news reports of Jews and Slavs being killed. And also reports of Nazi retaliation atrocities. But Roosevelt did want to turn the War into a "crusade to save Jews", which may have been politically difficult. It was then later thought that the best way to end the Holocaust was to end the War as quickly as possible, not take special missions such as bombing the concentration camps, so reports of mass killings were ignored.

Nickdfresh
09-29-2006, 08:02 AM
When did anyone say that?

Um, I think you can clearly see that Chevan has stated exactly that. And my response was to Chevans incompetent responses casting me as an angry Jew.:) I think you can pretty clearly see that if you actually reread it.


Judging by the fact that this thread is actually about a NAZI massacre but everyone somehow managed to turn it into yet ANOTHER anti-Russian tirade I'd say there clearly is an agenda here.

WTF!! Read the ****ing thread again, and see where it devolves into an anti-anything! It's the first (Chevan's) response who apparently bristles at the mention of any Jews being killed. I was the one that posted a simple article on a memorial and then saw it thread-jacked by a Russian ******* with an agenda.


Of course it would look that way, to people who are completely ignorant about Ukrainian history. I was in America during the phony "Orange Revolution" and saw first hand the outright lies that were being told- PARTICULARLY the implication that Western Ukrainians are actually the majority when in fact the exact opposite is true.

LOL Then I guess the Ukrainians were lying when they thought that the Russian gov't, run by an ex-KGB officer, used some sort of bio agent to attack the former Ukraine leader. You forgive if I trust THEIR version of events. Not Putins.

Strike 3, all three comments you made in this thread either cast you as a liar, or mentally incompetent as well.

Jasa
09-29-2006, 08:03 AM
The best source for debunking the Holocaust-revisionist claims is Nizkor.org's 66 Questions and Answers rebuttal. I think there are several versions but they address pretty much every claim. For ongoing news there is holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com


For debunking of the Ukrainian "famine genocide" one can find online Douglas Tottle's Ukrainian Famine: Famine, Fraud, and Fascism, among other sources.

The famine story was advanced by the fanatical OUN fascists and helped by the Nazi press as well as the American Hearst press. When the story became popular again during the Cold War, the culprits were ex-OUN emigres, many of them wanted for possible war crimes.

Nickdfresh
09-29-2006, 08:05 AM
Swing and a miss! Strike 3!



OMG! Unbelievable. I stand by my statements, all Russians currently posting on this board are mentally defective liars and trolls.

The Nazis weren't even in POWER IN 1932!!!!

Jasa
09-29-2006, 08:09 AM
Um, I think you can clearly see that Chevan has stated exactly that. And my response was to Chevans incompetent responses casting me as an angry Jew.:) I think you can pretty clearly see that if you actually reread it.

The fact is that YOUR comments about Russians were no different than anti-Semitic comments that overgeneralize and condemn entire ethnicities. Somehow you missed the similarity.




WTF!! Read the ****ing thread again, and see where it devolves into an anti-anything! It's the first (Chevan's) response who apparently bristles at the mention of any Jews being killed. I was the one that posted a simple article on a memorial and then saw it thread-jacked by a Russian ******* with an agenda.

Once again you make it a point to note ethnicity. I have the feeling that if someone started talking about some "Jewish *******" that person wouldn't be on here very long.




LOL Then I guess the Ukrainians were lying when they thought that the Russian gov't, run by an ex-KGB officer, used some sort of bio agent to attack the former Ukraine leader.

"The Ukrainians"? That's a pretty big group there. Second, I haven't seen ANY credible evidence linking the alleged DIOXIN(this is not a "biological agent") attack to the Russian government. The blame was on Yanukovich, his opponent, but that was never proven.



You forgive if I trust THEIR version of events. Not Putins.

Moron, it wasn't blamed on Putin. I see that it's not ok for a former-KGB officer to be president of his country but apparently it's ok for America to have a former CIA-director as its president.



Strike 3, all three comments you made in this thread either cast you as a liar, or mentally incompetent as well.

To a totally ignorant moron such as yourself, my statements MUST sound rather mindboggling don't they?

Nickdfresh
09-29-2006, 08:10 AM
The best source for debunking the Holocaust-revisionist claims is Nizkor.org's 66 Questions and Answers rebuttal. I think there are several versions but they address pretty much every claim. For ongoing news there is holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com

I been posting this all along.


For debunking of the Ukrainian "famine genocide" one can find online Douglas Tottle's Ukrainian Famine: Famine, Fraud, and Fascism, among other sources.

Oh I know. The Nazis were the root of all evil, and Stalinism was just super! Whatever, you're just another mindless apologist. I suppose the Soviets didn't kill the Pole officers at Katyn as well?


The famine story was advanced by the fanatical OUN fascists and helped by the Nazi press as well as the American Hearst press. When the story became popular again during the Cold War, the culprits were ex-OUN emigres, many of them wanted for possible war crimes.

LOL Oh how fascinating, a quick Google search reveals this site: http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine/

I guess they're fascist Ukrainian agents as well?

Jasa
09-29-2006, 08:12 AM
OMG! Unbelievable. I stand by my statements, all Russians currently posting on this board are mentally defective liars and trolls.

The Nazis weren't even in POWER IN 1932!!!!


Get ready for a revelation, retard:

THE NAZIS STILL HAD THEIR OWN NEWSPAPERS IN 1932, BEFORE THE CAME TO POWER!!! INCREDIBLE!!! BONUS!!! THE STORY DID NOT APPEAR IN AMERICA UNTIL AFTER THE NAZIS TOOK POWER!! WOW!

Jasa
09-29-2006, 08:19 AM
I been posting this all along.



Oh I know. The Nazis were the root of all evil, and Stalinism was just super! Whatever, you're just another mindless apologist. I suppose the Soviets didn't kill the Pole officers at Katyn as well?

When did any of us say that Stalin's reign(there is no such thing as "Stalinism") was "just super"? Stalin was in power during the most dangerous era Russia has ever faced. Moreover, many of the excesses that happened were outside of his control. His attempt to centralize control was in order to reign in the chaos.




LOL Oh how fascinating, a quick Google search reveals this site: http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine/


Well here's the problem Nick, your quick Google search doesn't really hold a candle to my years of independent research. Once again your ignorance trips you up because if you were to check out THIS part of the site:

http://www.infoukes.com/upa/

You would find that the people who run this site(probably don't even live in Ukraine) seem to have a love affair with the pro-Nazi UPA. I am familiar with that site from many years ago and their attitude is pro-Fascist. Now of course they claim that the UPA also fought the Nazis but this is simply laughable. They cannot produce anything to prove that the UPA was a real opponent of the occupiers. There are plenty of documents showing their support for the Nazis.



I guess they're fascist Ukrainian agents as well?

Nope, just ultra-nationalist idiots. You get to know a lot of these people from various countries in my line of work.


You know, you are really arguing out of your league here. Your best bet is to admit to yourself that you don't really know that much about Ukraine and perhaps it would be better to avoid that issue.

AMENDMENT: Notice that the link you provided has some photos showing the pictures from the famine. ONE small problem! These pictures have been proven DECADES ago to be fakes- they were taken during the 1921-22 famine, not in the 30s. For over sixty years this "famine genocide" has relied on a HANDFUL of photographs that were taken from the 21-22 Volga famine.

Also, note that it identifies "deniers" and posts links to their work, yet it doesn't even attempt to rebut the arguments. All it says is basically "these people praise Stalin". Well that's not true, Jeff Copplan certainly didn't in his work. Douglas Tottle did not either.

Tottle PUBLICLY confronted the makers of Harvest of Sorrow back in the 80's and they have never even ATTEMPTED to rebut his argument.

Nickdfresh
09-29-2006, 08:23 AM
The fact is that YOUR comments about Russians were no different than anti-Semitic comments that overgeneralize and condemn entire ethnicities. Somehow you missed the similarity.

And the fact is you don't care about anti-Semitism, and only recite the typical apologist affirmations. LOL You deny a historical truth by means of the "Internet".


Once again you make it a point to note ethnicity. I have the feeling that if someone started talking about some "Jewish *******" that person wouldn't be on here very long.

Chevan has been calling me Jewish (even though I am not), and has been reciting the same Jewish media myths, the same ones the Nazis used to defame them and set in motion the Holocaust.

You seem rather selective as to which one is offensive.

BTW, your pal Chevan incompetently started a thread using pictures to imply that all Americans are predisposed to Nazism, without providing any other evidence. He immediately became defensive rather than just admitting he made an error when he was "called" on it.

He is a ****ing *******, and should be banned as a troll in my opinion, because he has started three fights now based only on a hypercritical analysis of Western Ally policies, while uncritically and completely and smugly ignoring any general criticisms of Soviet actions.

It speaks volumes...



"The Ukrainians"? That's a pretty big group there. Second, I haven't seen ANY credible evidence linking the alleged DIOXIN(this is not a "biological agent") attack to the Russian government. The blame was on Yanukovich, his opponent, but that was never proven.

The insinuation was the Yanukovich was backed by Russian intelligence, meddling in Ukrainian affairs for their own ends.


Moron, it wasn't blamed on Putin. I see that it's not ok for a former-KGB officer to be president of his country but apparently it's ok for America to have a former CIA-director as its president.

Actually, I don't particularly like that President. In fact, I've been critical of many of my gov'ts policies and this can be verified, whereas it seems the Russians here are hypersensitive and bristle at any mention about their gov't in a negative light. It's almost like they work for it or something.


To a totally ignorant moron such as yourself, my statements MUST sound rather mindboggling don't they?

To an "ignorant moron" such as myself, you sound very reasonable and well spoken with a good command of English, until you go into the denial-mode of anything negative about Russia, past or present. They you just sound like a smarmy, lying *******.:)

Nickdfresh
09-29-2006, 08:34 AM
When did any of us say that Stalin's reign(there is no such thing as "Stalinism") was "just super"? Stalin was in power during the most dangerous era Russia has ever faced. Moreover, many of the excesses that happened were outside of his control. His attempt to centralize control was in order to reign in the chaos.





Well here's the problem Nick, your quick Google search doesn't really hold a candle to my years of independent research. Once again your ignorance trips you up because if you were to check out THIS part of the site:

http://www.infoukes.com/upa/

You would find that the people who run this site(probably don't even live in Ukraine) seem to have a love affair with the pro-Nazi UPA. I am familiar with that site from many years ago and their attitude is pro-Fascist. Now of course they claim that the UPA also fought the Nazis but this is simply laughable. They cannot produce anything to prove that the UPA was a real opponent of the occupiers. There are plenty of documents showing their support for the Nazis.

Really? Tell me why so many Ukrainians supported the Nazis initially, as did many Russians then. And in fact many Ukrainians did support the German Army initially, then attacked them as they began to starve the native population. Maybe they had to leave because to Soviet polices, which were patently brutal towards them that they had little choice. It's often said that Hitler could have easily conquered The USSR if he had arrived as a "liberator" as opposed as a dominator.

And as opposed to your site run by pro-Communist Russians? LOL

Thank you for repeating the Stalinist lies though.:)


Nope, just ultra-nationalist idiots. You get to know a lot of these people from various countries in my line of work.

Mine too. I mean, it's not like you have a Soviet flag in your avatar or something.


You know, you are really arguing out of your league here. Your best bet is to admit to yourself that you don't really know that much about Ukraine and perhaps it would be better to avoid that issue.

Perhaps its best not to expose oneself as a biased liar when speaking about historical realities. Perhaps you are the one that shouldn't be arguing that "it's all a fascist conspiracy?"


AMENDMENT: Notice that the link you provided has some photos showing the pictures from the famine. ONE small problem! These pictures have been proven DECADES ago to be fakes- they were taken during the 1921-22 famine, not in the 30s. For over sixty years this "famine genocide" has relied on a HANDFUL of photographs that were taken from the 21-22 Volga famine.

Also, note that it identifies "deniers" and posts links to their work, yet it doesn't even attempt to rebut the arguments. All it says is basically "these people praise Stalin". Well that's not true, Jeff Copplan certainly didn't in his work. Douglas Tottle did not either.

Tottle PUBLICLY confronted the makers of Harvest of Sorrow back in the 80's and they have never even ATTEMPTED to rebut his argument.

Why would they? Who "exposed" those photos as fakes? More apologists? No wonder why the Ukraine couldn't get away form you guys fast enough.

If I'm so ignorant of the Ukraine, then what is their policy regarding Russia?

Jasa
09-29-2006, 08:39 AM
And the fact is you don't care about anti-Semitism, and only recite the typical apologist affirmations. LOL You deny a historical truth by means of the "Internet".

WTF are you talking about?




Chevan has been calling me Jewish (even though I am not), and has been reciting the same Jewish media myths, the same ones the Nazis used to defame them and set in motion the Holocaust.


You seem rather selective as to which one is offensive.

Not at all, they can both be considered offensive. So it is you that is selective. I told Chevan how the holocaust revisionists really work and why one should not listen to their claims. I also provided sources that debunk the revisionist claims.



BTW, you pal Chevan incompetently started a thread using pictures to imply that all Americans are predisposed to Nazism, without providing any other evidence. He immediately became defensive rather than just admitting he made an error when he was "called" on it.

That's his problem, not mine.



He is a ****ing *******, and should be banned as a troll in my opinion, because he has started three fights now based only on a hypercritical analysis of Western Ally policies, while uncritically and completely and smugly ignoring any general criticisms of Soviet actions.

Well to be honest I haven't been here long enough to see the general character of the board but I notice a LOT of anti-Soviet and actually anti-Russian propaganda repeatedly posted here. That's not to say that it's all untrue, but one should always remember that if you are America, British, or even Polish, your governments aided and allied with that "evil empire" so you share complicity as well.





The insinuation was the Yanukovich was backed by Russian intelligence, meddling in Ukrainian affairs for their own ends.

Right, which wasn't proven. What WAS proven was the US meddling in the form of funding for the "revolution" by Soros and the US government.

Do you remember how pissed everyone was when they found the DNC was receiving money from the Chinese(1996)? Apparently it's ok for the US to do the same thing to other countries though.




Actually, I don't particularly like that President. In fact, I've been critical of many of my gov'ts policies and this can be verified, whereas it seems the Russians here are hypersensitive and bristle at any mention about their gov't in a negative light. It's almost like they work for it or something.

Well you haven't heard my own criticism on the Russian government. I hate Putin, Yuschenko, Yanukovich, and all these bastards. In Eastern Europe there's generally two choices- vote for your country to be run by local criminals(Putin) or foreign ones(Soros, Berezovsky). Either way the exploitation continues. Then we have the nationalist groups who generally do nothing of value and hate every ethnicity around them.



To an "ignorant moron" such as myself, you sound very reasonable and well spoken with a good command of English, until you go into the denial-mode of anything negative about Russia, past or present. They you just sound like a smarmy, lying *******.:)

Well the problem is I'm not lying. You picked one of the WORST sources when you posted infoukes. I am of Western Ukrainian heritage myself and I have dealt with these people in the past. Press them a little and they will invent all sorts of fantastic stories.

The fact that they would mention the "deniers" while still using the proven fake photographs is insulting to one's intelligence.

Jasa
09-29-2006, 08:50 AM
Really? Tell me why so many Ukrainians supported the Nazis initially, as did many Russians then. And in fact many Ukrainians did support the German Army initially, then attacked them as they began to starve the native population. Maybe they had to leave because to Soviet polices, which were patently brutal towards them that they had little choice. It's often said that Hitler could have easily conquered The USSR if he had arrived as a "liberator" as opposed as a dominator.


Actually when you look at the statistical facts you would find that the Ukrainian population was overwhelming hostile to the Nazis EXCEPT in Galicia. Even there they found opposition which is why the OUN began murdering so many people in Lvov once the Nazis arrived. There is plenty of documentation on this including the reports of the OUN/Ukrainian nationalists themselves.

Once again, had you taken my advice and ACTUALLY read Douglas Tottle's book(in PDF format), he cites many reports from the OUN leaders regarding their popularity among the population.

About 5 million Ukrainians fought for the Red Army, and several hundred thousand fought as partisans. The ethnicity with the second highest amount of HSU winners is Ukrainian.



And as opposed to your site run by pro-Communist Russians? LOL

Hmm.. Douglas Tottle is Canadian and clearly not Russian. Jeff Copplan worked for the American Village Voice and is also clearly not Russian. In fact, I cannot at this moment think of ONE person who debunked the famine genocide who actually IS Russian.



Thank you for repeating the Stalinist lies though.:)

Please be specific.




Mine too. I mean, it's not like you have a Soviet flag in your avatar or something.

So Communists can never tell the truth about anything? Ernst Zundel would LOVE it if that were the case.




Perhaps its best not to expose oneself as a biased liar when speaking about historical realities. Perhaps you are the one that shouldn't be arguing that "it's all a fascist conspiracy?"

You keep throwing around the word liar and yet you don't even bother to check the numerous sources I have given to you. Furthermore you don't even have the prerequisate knowledge on this topic that you would need to show I am lying.




Why would they? Who "exposed" those photos as fakes? More apologists? No wonder why the Ukraine couldn't get away form you guys fast enough.

Maybe you should actually READ my sources for a change. The original pictures appeared before in various publications that documented the 21-22 famine. These pictures were found to have been published TEN years prior to the event.



If I'm so ignorant of the Ukraine, then what is their policy regarding Russia?

The Ukrainian government is still in a state of turmoil right now because the "honeymoon" with Yuschenko is wearing thin. EVERY time Ukraine has been independent, it has faced disaster. It is one of the most corrupt nations in the world today and the standard of living is generally far below Russia or Belarus.

The Ukrainians NEVER had it better than under Soviet rule WE contributed to the Soviet Union, WE fought to defend the Soviet Union just as we did the empire. ALL statistics related to standards of living prove this fact.

Chevan
09-29-2006, 08:57 AM
Chevan has been calling me Jewish (even though I am not)


you bad look at he mirror. You are the tupical jews. ;)



BTW, your pal Chevan incompetently started a thread using pictures to imply that all Americans are predisposed to Nazism, without providing any other evidence.
Listen , mudak , except you nobody told " that all Americans are predisposed to Nazism" in that thread about NSM.


He is a ****ing *******, and should be banned as a troll in my opinion, because he has started three fights now based only on a hypercritical analysis of Western Ally policies,
This is famouse American "freedom of speech" .
Your oppinion put in *** :)
Hupercritical analisys .... don't worry soon i could prepeare some new thread with hypercritical analysis of USA policies.

Nickdfresh
09-29-2006, 09:16 AM
WTF are you talking about?

I am talking about the fact that you completely ignore the statements by Chevan!



Not at all, they can both be considered offensive. So it is you that is selective. I told Chevan how the holocaust revisionists really work and why one should not listen to their claims. I also provided sources that debunk the revisionist claims.

Then you launch into a folly of historical apologism of your own, by claiming the Ukrainians that opposed Stalin where just fascist agents. And that a famine that was verified by historians as fact, but was covered up by Stalinists, is just another fascist conspiracy.


That's his problem, not mine.

Then stay out of the fight threads, and stop crying foul the minute someone holds your culture to the same standard members of your culture start spouting off about others.

You made several posts in this thread that are patently silly, like implying that I turned into a Russian-bashing thread when in the second post is where the fight started.


Well to be honest I haven't been here long enough to see the general character of the board but I notice a LOT of anti-Soviet and actually anti-Russian propaganda repeatedly posted here. That's not to say that it's all untrue, but one should always remember that if you are America, British, or even Polish, your governments aided and allied with that "evil empire" so you share complicity as well.

It's not anti-Russian. And I think people have the right to be dubious of Stalinism. In fact, I have nothing but admiration for the courage and sacrifice of the Russian people overall. I in fact worked with a Russian girl that was very smart and attractive, and had she not been married would gladly have asked her out. I've used Russian products (Stoli vodka, and Getty & Lukos gasoline, and would much like to buy an AK-47:) ). I think you'll find more of admiration here for the Russian people and their genius for engineering things like T-34s and the like than condemnation of them as inherently evil. Defeating Hitler was mostly Russias glory, no one is denying that. But in the end, Stalin was a ****.


Right, which wasn't proven. What WAS proven was the US meddling in the form of funding for the "revolution" by Soros and the US government.

The Famine happened, and it was exacerbated by deliberate inaction of Soviet authorities. Look man, I don't deny that the U.S.A. has done some shit things and has a past of slavery, unfair economic manipulations, genocide against the Native Americans and the like. So I don't deny unfavorable historical realities simply because I am an American patriot that happens to detest certain ignominious aspects of his history.

And I recall the Soviet gov't was funding the CPUSA and committing blatant acts of espionage during the Cold War. So the U.S. policies were no worse.


Do you remember how pissed everyone was when they found the DNC was receiving money from the Chinese(1996)? Apparently it's ok for the US to do the same thing to other countries though.

That's a partisan myth actually. No, actually the DNC received money from a Chinese-American donor that had ties to Chinese Intelligence. They also gave to the GOP as well. And there was no collusion or special interests found to have been the result. There was no meddling in the election as a result, it was more a Chinese test to see if they could manipulate American democracy.


Well you haven't heard my own criticism on the Russian government. I hate Putin, Yuschenko, Yanukovich, and all these bastards. In Eastern Europe there's generally two choices- vote for your country to be run by local criminals(Putin) or foreign ones(Soros, Berezovsky). Either way the exploitation continues. Then we have the nationalist groups who generally do nothing of value and hate every ethnicity around them.

Perhaps we can find common ground since I think my gov't is currently run by bastards as well.:)


Well the problem is I'm not lying. You picked one of the WORST sources when you posted infoukes. I am of Western Ukrainian heritage myself and I have dealt with these people in the past. Press them a little and they will invent all sorts of fantastic stories.

The fact that they would mention the "deniers" while still using the proven fake photographs is insulting to one's intelligence.

Perhaps. I know there are some people with nefarious pasts in these movements. But for the record, I learned of the Ukrainian famine episode not that site, but very long ago from a PBS special, an American TV network not exactly thought of as the bastion of the right wing or fascism.

Jasa
09-29-2006, 09:46 AM
Then you launch into a folly of historical apologism of your own, by claiming the Ukrainians that opposed Stalin where just fascist agents.

You know I really hate to do this but let me be blunt: I KNOW MORE ABOUT THIS SUBJECT THAN YOU. Ok? Had you bothered to check my sources and actually LOOK at the breakdown of how many Ukrainians supported which side and who supported the Fascist you would have found that I am right. The OUN was openly pro-Nazi even up until the 80s.



And that a famine that was verified by historians as fact, but was covered up by Stalinists, is just another fascist conspiracy.

Wrong.




Then stay out of the fight threads, and stop crying foul the minute someone holds your culture to the same standard members of your culture start spouting off about others.

In case you didn't notice, English isn't his native language.



You made several posts in this thread that are patently silly, like implying that I turned into a Russian-bashing thread when in the second post is where the fight started.

I would define "patently silly" as "discussing historical issues about which you have very little knowledge, e.g. Ukrainian history."




It's not anti-Russian. And I think people have the right to be dubious of Stalinism. In fact, I have nothing but admiration for the courage and sacrifice of the Russian people overall. I in fact worked with a Russian girl that was very smart and attractive, and had she not been married would gladly have asked her out. I've used Russian products (Stoli vodka, and Getty & Lukos gasoline, and would much like to buy an AK-47:) ). I think you'll find more of admiration here for the Russian people and their genius for engineering things like T-34s and the like than condemnation of them as inherently evil. Defeating Hitler was mostly Russias glory, no one is denying that. But in the end, Stalin was a ****.

You list accomplishments of the Russian people and then pretend that Stalin had nothing to do with that. Just because you can rattle off about T-34s and AK-47s doesn't convince me that you have the proper understanding of Russian history to know WHY Stalin(who of course was not Russian himself) needed to do the things he did(the actual things, not the made-up bullshit).




The Famine happened, and it was exacerbated by deliberate inaction of Soviet authorities.

Christ, you don't even know what the FAMINE claim is! The claim is that the famine happened BECAUSE of the deliberate ACTION of the state by confiscating grain. That being said, it is proven by tons of documents and eyewitnesses from various foreign countries that this was not the case. Had you READ some of my sources you would know why some people starved to death. It should also be noted that droughts were recorded for that season in several areas of the Ukraine as well as in the Volga region- in both places some people also starved.




Look man, I don't deny that the U.S.A. has done some shit things and has a past of slavery, unfair economic manipulations, genocide against the Native Americans and the like. So I don't deny unfavorable historical realities simply because I am an American patriot that happens to detest certain ignominious aspects of his history.

The fact is that any propagandist could apply the methods used by anti-Stalin demagogues to make it appear that America was some kind of horrible genocidal nation. In fact, one could turn Abraham Lincoln into a Stalin. The fact is that to do this to either country or regime is just plain stupid.



And I recall the Soviet gov't was funding the CPUSA and committing blatant acts of espionage during the Cold War. So the U.S. policies were no worse.

They cut off funding in the 60s. The CPUSA was basically a waste by then, and it's a total joke right now.




That's a partisan myth actually. No, actually the DNC received money from a Chinese-American donor that had ties to Chinese Intelligence. They also gave to the GOP as well. And there was no collusion or special interests found to have been the result. There was no meddling in the election as a result, it was more a Chinese test to see if they could manipulate American democracy.

Of course, but remember the outrage the implication caused? And rightfully so. There is no such thing as democracy if a party represents the interests of a foreign country.





Perhaps. I know there are some people with nefarious pasts in these movements. But for the record, I learned of the Ukrainian famine episode not that site, but very long ago from a PBS special, an American TV network not exactly thought of as the bastion of the right wing or fascism.

Again, you should check some of my sources and you will see why it appeared on PBS. The Ukrainain emigre groups were trying to reinvent themselves at the same time when Reagan was turning things up a notch against the Soviet Union. Basically these two factions found each other. The emigre organizations started to change their political line- trying to burry past anti-Semitic, pro-Hitler rants. It's really shameful today when you see books like The Galician Division by Michael Logusz that try to tell you that the Ukrainians joining the SS really wanted liberal democracy and that the UPA fought against the Nazis.



If you want a basic summary, read Jeff Copplan's Village Voice article(it addresses the PBS special). For more detail get the PDF of Tottle's book. The collectivisation is dealt with in detail in a book called Another View of Stalin by Ludo Martens(Worker's Party of Belgium). Of course he is an open Communist but if you can accept the fact that his book is heavily sourced and goes out of its way to use non and even anti-Communist references I recommend you read it.

The reason why so much anti-Stalin propaganda sticks is because opportunists within the Soviet Union had an interest in promoting it as well. In other words, it seems as though it comes from both sides of the spectrum.

Nickdfresh
09-29-2006, 10:03 AM
[
Actually when you look at the statistical facts you would find that the Ukrainian population was overwhelming hostile to the Nazis EXCEPT in Galicia. Even there they found opposition which is why the OUN began murdering so many people in Lvov once the Nazis arrived. There is plenty of documentation on this including the reports of the OUN/Ukrainian nationalists themselves.

Once again, had you taken my advice and ACTUALLY read Douglas Tottle's book(in PDF format), he cites many reports from the OUN leaders regarding their popularity among the population.

About 5 million Ukrainians fought for the Red Army, and several hundred thousand fought as partisans. The ethnicity with the second highest amount of HSU winners is Ukrainian.


One link does not make a history. You are correct that I haven't read Tottle yet, because I do not have time since I've been busy busting Holocaust denier myths, and I have other work assignments. But the overall gist I've gotten from just about any source is that there was a certain tolerance and passivity, if not outright support, for the initial Nazi occupation. Until the people learned that the Ukraine was to be little more than a German farming community with the Ukrainians used as slave laborers, the ones that didn't starve to death first that is.

I'm pretty sure I can find many sources which would agree with this assessment. And I've never denied that many Ukrainians fought the Nazis, just that they were hesitant to do so initially as I think anybody living under Stalin would be.


Hmm.. Douglas Tottle is Canadian and clearly not Russian. Jeff Copplan worked for the American Village Voice and is also clearly not Russian. In fact, I cannot at this moment think of ONE person who debunked the famine genocide who actually IS Russian.

I'll check it out. But the Village Voice is not known as the bastion of great journalism in America. It tends to be regarded as an alternative-leftist publication with some kooky rightists thrown in for good measure.


Please be specific.

That the anti-Russian/Soviet Ukrainian resistance was nothing more than the extension of pro-Fascist agents. There definitely WAS an element of domination and suppression under Stalin? I would love to hear an educated Ukrainians view on this?

And it seems that many of East European origin here do not agree with your rosy post-War assessments of Soviet controlled satellite gov'ts., which they patently installed on the people thwarted any democratic ambitions.


So Communists can never tell the truth about anything? Ernst Zundel would LOVE it if that were the case.

I didn't say that. I use the term "Stalinist." I think there are European Marxist-Humanists that can make some good cases.


You keep throwing around the word liar and yet you don't even bother to check the numerous sources I have given to you. Furthermore you don't even have the prerequisate knowledge on this topic that you would need to show I am lying.

Maybe you should actually READ my sources for a change. The original pictures appeared before in various publications that documented the 21-22 famine. These pictures were found to have been published TEN years prior to the event.

I will when I have time. And your knowledge of all things Ukrainian does not belay a certain pro-Russian bias. You'll excuse me if I question your right to speak for Ukrainians, unless you are Ukrainian by birth as you sort of imply here? In which case, I would be forced to suspect that you would be of Russian ethnicity.

But even if the pictures are a fraud, there wasn't exactly a free press under Stalin critically evaluating his policies in the Ukraine, was there? In fact, I've seen a documentary in which unwittingly befuddled American "idiots" seeking financial gain where given a "tour of the Ukraine" in which they only saw nice sights of prearranged gov't propaganda, while they were kept away from areas of utter starvation and misery in order to prove a point written directly from an Orwellian novel.


The Ukrainian government is still in a state of turmoil right now because the "honeymoon" with Yuschenko is wearing thin. EVERY time Ukraine has been independent, it has faced disaster. It is one of the most corrupt nations in the world today and the standard of living is generally far below Russia or Belarus.

Hmmmm...No doubt a completely unbiased assessment.


The Ukrainians NEVER had it better than under Soviet rule WE contributed to the Soviet Union, WE fought to defend the Soviet Union just as we did the empire. ALL statistics related to standards of living prove this fact.

The Ukrainians demanding autonomy were also taken out in the middle of the night and shot by Soviet authorities, as well as having had other methods of state terror used against them. The Stalinist also "planted" Russians (a policy of competent imperialists everywhere) in the Ukraine and attempted to expunge the identity of Ukrainian culture. There can be no argument of these facts despite your rosy , dewy assessment of Ukrainians needing Russians to rule them, and any links you provide.

I suspect many Ukrainians would view this assessment as somewhat disparaging.

Look, I respect you as intelligent (if biased) Jasa, and you've made some excellent knowledgeable posts at this site, but I wish we could move on from this.

My quarrel is not with you, it's with the idiot who is for all practical purposes calling me a "hook-nosed, money lending" Jew

Jasa
09-29-2006, 10:40 AM
[


One link does not make a history. You are correct that I haven't read Tottle yet, because I do not have time since I've been busy busting Holocaust denier myths, and I have other work assignments. But the overall gist I've gotten from just about any source is that there was a certain tolerance and passivity, if not outright support, for the initial Nazi occupation. Until the people learned that the Ukraine was to be little more than a German farming community with the Ukrainians used as slave laborers, the ones that didn't starve to death first that is.

I have offered you several links. In fact, the link you provided also shows you some of these links and strangely does not even attempt to debunk them. But nobody ever accused Galician nationalists of being too intelligent I suppose.

The overwhelming majority of people in Ukraine were anti-Nazi. The reason why Tottle's work is so important is because aside from the raw statistics on the army and partisan movement, there is also documentation from the Ukranian nationalists themselves including letters that bemoan the hostility of the Ukrainian population. These people expected to be hailed as heroes, but were seen as traitors. Tottle's book contains some correspondence within the OUN on this.



I'm pretty sure I can find many sources which would agree with this assessment. And I've never denied that many Ukrainians fought the Nazis, just that they were hesitant to do so initially as I think anybody living under Stalin would be.

Like I said, the raw statistics and the nationalists' own correspondance shows the opposite. Remember that even in Lviv, where the Nazis were "welcomed", those that did the "welcoming" immediately began slaughtering all the opposition in the city(pro-Communists, Muscovites, Poles, Jews, intellectuals). About 9,000 people were brutally murdered by the OUN in Lviv.




I'll check it out. But the Village Voice is not known as the bastion of great journalism in America. It tends to be regarded as an alternative-leftist publication with some kooky rightists thrown in for good measure.

Still, the author has no love for Stalin. Plus it's not like this was hard to debunk. We're talking about an allegation of genocide that rests on literally a handful of photographs(taken ten years earlier), a fraudulent eyewitness(Thomas Walker, who never even visited Ukraine), and some Ukrainian nationalist leaders.




That the anti-Russian/Soviet Ukrainian resistance was nothing more than the extension of pro-Fascist agents. There definitely WAS an element of domination and suppression under Stalin? I would love to hear an educated Ukrainians view on this?

Any suppression that existed in Ukraine existed all throughout the country at the time. The fact is that one class is going to suppress the other. Today the Bourgeoisie regained control in Russia and Ukraine and they work extra hard to suppress the majority of people. If there is another revolution these thugs need to be wiped out with FAR more cruelty than that which was occasionally displayed by the Soviet government.

It is important to remember however, that the modern former Soviet populace(BECAUSE of Communism), is far more educated and is actually literate now- meaning that a future revolution will not face the same difficulties that the last one did.



And it seems that many of East European origin here do not agree with your rosy post-War assessments of Soviet controlled satellite gov'ts., which they patently installed on the people thwarted any democratic ambitions.

Heh heh...you don't understand Eastern Europe. At least you came into what is essentially a Polish-Russian conflict and not a clusterf$^k like Former Yugoslavia.




I didn't say that. I use the term "Stalinist." I think there are European Marxist-Humanists that can make some good cases.

There is no such thing as "Stalinism". There is correct Marxism-Leninism that Stalin was applying and then there are various forms of bullshit like Trotskyism or the joke that existed in the late Soviet Union, which allowed the misery and suffering we see today throughout Eastern Europe. It should be noted that even in some countries that have benefitted from foreign investment, life for ordinary people has not really improved that much.




I will when I have time. And your knowledge of all things Ukrainian does not belay a certain pro-Russian bias. You'll excuse me if I question your right to speak for Ukrainians, unless you are Ukrainian by birth as you sort of imply here? In which case, I would be forced to suspect that you would be of Russian ethnicity.

I think that I should question your right to speak for Ukrainians based on your previous statements about the elections. If we are talking about Galicians, I'll tell you right now that I DON'T speak for them. However, Galician nationalists NEVER speak for the majority of Ukrainians. They just have louder voices.



But even if the pictures are a fraud, there wasn't exactly a free press under Stalin critically evaluating his policies in the Ukraine, was there?

Actually there are documents and public statements by Stalin talking about the problems in the civil insurrection in the countryside as well as with the collectivisation process. Stalin made numerous attempts to reign in the excesses that were being committed by corrupt party elements in the countryside, but there was little that could be done because the party had always been weak in that part of society. That is not to say that they didn't manage to correct many wrongs and punish the wrongdoers.


As for eyewitnesses, the main objective eyewitness proposed in favor of the famine was Thomas Walker, who in fact was found never to have been in Ukraine. Against the famine are several journalists from a number of Western countries, all of whom the nationalists accuse of being Communists or "duped".



In fact, I've seen a documentary in which unwittingly befuddled American "idiots" seeking financial gain where given a "tour of the Ukraine" in which they only saw nice sights of prearranged gov't propaganda, while they were kept away from areas of utter starvation and misery in order to prove a point written directly from an Orwellian novel.

That's the general claim, but once one knows the situation of the Soviet government at the time it becomes laughable that they would be able to pull that off. Honestly, how does one visit a country where millions of people are starving to death and not see any of this going on?

I have read many publications by Americans who visited early Soviet russia and Ukraine and they frequently and openly talked about problems they saw. Certainly no Potemkin villages.




Hmmmm...No doubt a competely unbiased assessment.

Assumption that the opposite side is unbiased.




The Ukrainians demanding autonomy were also taken out in the middle of the night and shot by Soviet authorities, as well as having had other methods of state terror used against them.

That tends to happen to violent separatists in every nation. This happened in the United States during something called the Civil War.



The Stalinist also "planted" Russians (a policy of competent imperialists everywhere) in the Ukraine and attempted to expunge the identity of Ukrainian culture.

As the industrialization went on, many populations shifted. The problem with this statement is that it implies some very significant cultural/ethnic difference between Muscovite Russians and Ukrainians. Theoretically both groups are "Russian". Linguistic and cultural differences are mostly the product of foreign influence, in the case of Ukraine it came from Poland.




There can be no argument of these facts despite your rosy , dewy assessment of Ukrainians needing Russians to rule them, and any links you provide.

Who said Ukrainians "need Russians to rule" them? The country called Rossiya is every bit a part of Ukraine as Ukraine is part of Rus.



I suspect many Ukrainians would view this assessment as somewhat disparaging.

Till they can produce statistics claiming otherwise I am not concerned.



Look, I respect you as intelligent (if biased) Jasa, and you've made some excellent knowledgeable posts at this site, but I wish we could move on from this.

My quarrel is not with you, it's with the idiot who is for all practical purposes calling me a "hook-nosed, money lending" Jew

Very well, but let me just say that I have often seen the "bias" accusation aimed at anything that defends socialism while it is implied that liberal democratic societies or anything anti-Communist isn't biased.

I once had a good friend back in the states who had no problem with Holocaust-revisionism and other pro-Axis, pro-Fascist ideals. But when I began to reevaluate my knowledge of socialist history and Stalin, he suddenly accused me of "bias".

Jasa
09-29-2006, 10:43 AM
I should point out that most of my "defense" of Stalin's history actually was the result of years I spent as an activist repeating anti-Stalin, anti-Communist claims, including the famine genocide(that is why I am already famliar with Infoukes). I do however have a great concern for objectivity and over time I began to have doubts about the accuracy of the claims I was repeating. It seemed like I could never find concrete proof of this or that massacre. Still I thought that those who denied things like the famine or the millions killed in the Great Purge had to have been crazy.

I struggled with the problem of proof for about two years until I finally decided to read what the other side said- and then it became clear why I could never find that concrete evidence I was searching for. It just doesn't exist.

Nickdfresh
09-29-2006, 11:00 AM
You know I really hate to do this but let me be blunt: I KNOW MORE ABOUT THIS SUBJECT THAN YOU. Ok? Had you bothered to check my sources and actually LOOK at the breakdown of how many Ukrainians supported which side and who supported the Fascist you would have found that I am right. The OUN was openly pro-Nazi even up until the 80s.

You know more about this subject coming from a particular angle. Background knowledge about a subject, and seeking truth are clearly two different things.




Wrong.




In case you didn't notice, English isn't his native language.

Well, I did get something about that I'm a lousy Jew. That came through his Alt-Vista translator well enough.


I would define "patently silly" as "discussing historical issues about which you have very little knowledge, e.g. Ukrainian history."

Yes, but what knowledge I do have is pretty clearly contradicted by your selective scholarship. I'll give you that you're knowledgeable and intelligent, but when you say things tantamount too "the Ukrainians never had it so good as when they were under Stalin!" you really undercut that. I'd say that pretty much makes you a laughing stock actually.

I'm sorry if I don't buy your arguments which are admittedly those of a biased ideologue that is willing to alter facts in order to propagate his ideology, as a communist. But Freedom is (not) slavery, and War is (not) peace! Isn't the end justified by the means or something like that?



You list accomplishments of the Russian people and then pretend that Stalin had nothing to do with that.

Well, he did execute the Red Army high command, and conduct the War with unparalled incompetence for the first six months or so. In the end, the Russian people chose the Georgian devil that they knew over the German fascist one that was worse.


Just because you can rattle off about T-34s and AK-47s doesn't convince me that you have the proper understanding of Russian history to know WHY Stalin(who of course was not Russian himself) needed to do the things he did(the actual things, not the made-up bullshit).

I never claimed to be a Russian scholar, as you obviously have little background knowledge regarding American history. Especially when you say things like:


The fact is that any propagandist could apply the methods used by anti-Stalin demagogues to make it appear that America was some kind of horrible genocidal nation. In fact, one could turn Abraham Lincoln into a Stalin. The fact is that to do this to either country or regime is just plain stupid.

That is utterly one of the most absurd statements I've ever seen on the interweb. Lincoln was democratically elected, and then reelected. Yes, some Southerners would view him as a "tyrant." But that's just sour grapes really! Some would also take a conspiratorial view that Lincoln was assassinated by his own cabinet because he was planning on going easy on the South during reconstruction whereas the "Radical Republicans" wanted to punish them, hardly Stalin-rific!

You're just drowning in your own logical fallacies of "Animal Farm" pig-shit now. Please feel free to liken Lincoln to Joe Stalin. I'd really enjoy that actually. :lol:


Christ, you don't even know what the FAMINE claim is! The claim is that the famine happened BECAUSE of the deliberate ACTION of the state by confiscating grain. That being said, it is proven by tons of documents and eyewitnesses from various foreign countries that this was not the case. Had you READ some of my sources you would know why some people starved to death. It should also be noted that droughts were recorded for that season in several areas of the Ukraine as well as in the Volga region- in both places some people also starved.

You mean had I read your selective sources which pretty much say only what you want rather than the unbiased histories which deplore both Stalinism and Nazism, I'll choose the latter.

But this thread isn't about the Ukrainian famine. It's about some silly assholes attempt to belittle the Holocaust because he's apparently offended that the Jews get the spotlight in all the massacres and atrocities or something. That's pretty ****ing childish, as are his recent posts.

I'll tell you what, I'll start a Ukrainian famine thread, and I'm sure I can learn much! We'll both share in the delight as you reveal that benevolent, fearless Joseph "Man of Steel! Hu-rumpH!" Stalin single handedly saved Ukrainian children from Western capitalists, and that they "never had it so good" and was a better leader in WWII than just about any other Russian could have been, that didn't share his penchant for paranoid delusions. Personally, I always liked Marshall Zhukov. And even that wacky Khrushchev had a fun sense of humor!

And I'll show you that you're selectively grabbing at resources and building a very biased, prosecutorial case of shit right out of the Orwellian stalls of "Animal Farm (http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/animalfarm/)." :)


They cut off funding in the 60s. The CPUSA was basically a waste by then, and it's a total joke right now.

It mostly always was a joke. They made the unCommunistic mistake of treating their workers like shit (by not giving basic health benefits) which led a disgruntled communist to become an invaluable FBI-informant.

The funding con'td to the 70's I believe, and became a scandal which undid whatever credibility they had on workers rights and in the labor movement.



Of course, but remember the outrage the implication caused? And rightfully so. There is no such thing as democracy if a party represents the interests of a foreign country.

If you read my post again, you see that there were no actual "interests represented." Tell what interests the Chinese gained by this?

Go ahead, list them!

It was merely an issue that was deliberately misreported by right wing media pols in some bizarre effort to show that Clinton was a "commie sympathizer," even though he displayed American military and naval power to China on many occasions. You seem to have much in common with them as far as truth being the first victim in your boundless ideological struggle.

You'll excuse me if I cry that you're "ignorant" of this and don't know what you're talking about.



Again, you should check some of my sources and you will see why it appeared on PBS. The Ukrainain emigre groups were trying to reinvent themselves at the same time when Reagan was turning things up a notch against the Soviet Union. Basically these two factions found each other. The emigre organizations started to change their political line- trying to burry past anti-Semitic, pro-Hitler rants. It's really shameful today when you see books like The Galician Division by Michael Logusz that try to tell you that the Ukrainians joining the SS really wanted liberal democracy and that the UPA fought against the Nazis.

Again, I will! Maybe I'll even find a few anti-Stalinist Ukrainian nationalists that can't be easily dismissed at pro-Nazis, yes? Or perhaps some were victims of a KGB smear campaign.

BTW, you never addressed Kovalski's point regarding the declassified NKVD files regarding this incident other than an awkward baseball terminology that I take for an outright denial without presenting any factual case to refute his claim. C'mon, you can do better than that! Surely you know more about this than the NKVD of the 1930s!


If you want a basic summary, read Jeff Copplan's Village Voice article(it addresses the PBS special). For more detail get the PDF of Tottle's book. The collectivisation is dealt with in detail in a book called Another View of Stalin by Ludo Martens(Worker's Party of Belgium). Of course he is an open Communist but if you can accept the fact that his book is heavily sourced and goes out of its way to use non and even anti-Communist references I recommend you read it.

I'll do that (Tottle at least), and perhaps you can read George Orwell's "1984" and "Animal Farm," from a British Socialist that fought fascism side-by-side with Trotskyist, and later Stalinist, Russians in the Spanish Civil War. He quit after the Trotskyists were hunted down or "disappeared."


The reason why so much anti-Stalin propaganda sticks is because opportunists within the Soviet Union had an interest in promoting it as well. In other words, it seems as though it comes from both sides of the spectrum.

Ooof! Sorry, but the Gulags are a bit tough to take! I wonder if Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gulag_Archipelago) was also a fascist agent too? Just like that ice-pick in Trotsky's skull! Ouch!

Nickdfresh
09-29-2006, 11:09 AM
I should point out that most of my "defense" of Stalin's history actually was the result of years I spent as an activist repeating anti-Stalin, anti-Communist claims, including the famine genocide(that is why I am already famliar with Infoukes). I do however have a great concern for objectivity and over time I began to have doubts about the accuracy of the claims I was repeating. It seemed like I could never find concrete proof of this or that massacre. Still I thought that those who denied things like the famine or the millions killed in the Great Purge had to have been crazy.

I struggled with the problem of proof for about two years until I finally decided to read what the other side said- and then it became clear why I could never find that concrete evidence I was searching for. It just doesn't exist.

:lol:

Yeah, I can tell you were a real doozy of an anti-Stalin crusader! ;)

About the declassified NKVD files please? Or are you just ignoring that?

By the way, you sound exactly like the David Irving of the extreme left.


You're talking about famine genocide in Ukraine in 1932-1933?
The product of Nazis?
Are you nuts?
The documents of NKVD that were disclosed in 2006 clearly confirm the fact that the famine genocide was a deliberate action of Soviet goverment taken in order to stifle ukrainian aspirations for independence, because they posed a threat to Soviet Union's unity.


Swing and a miss! Strike 3!


Chevan I personally knew a Holocaust-revisionist author and read a lot of their material. Many of them can make a good case, but I discovered serious flaws in their research. Before you believe the claims these people make, you must realize that they also have other theories such as "Hitler saved Europe from Stalins invasion" and other nonsense. It's ironic that much of the propaganda that the West promoted(and still promotes today) was very helpful to Holocaust revisionists who needed ways of proving that Hitler wasn't such a bad guy.

Hmmmmmmmm....:shock:

Gen. Sandworm
09-29-2006, 11:14 AM
K this will be the only warning stop with the harsh and insulting language towards each other. Has no place here. Debate in an adult manner.

Nickdfresh
09-29-2006, 11:20 AM
Oh and Jasa, which one of the "sources" you've provided states that the Ukrainian Famine of 1932-33 was a product of "the Nazis?" I'd really like to see that since Hitler did not fully take power until 1933, or is that also an inconvenient statement you'd like to ignore and forget also?


Before everyone starts bitching about Russians again, let's consider the SOURCE of most of the Holocaust revisionist propaganda...

Most of it is distributed via American or other Western organizations and websites like Stormfront, the National Alliance, National Vanguard, etc. In addition to this, Holocaust revisionists have made ample use of government-supported propaganda such as the Ukrainian famine in order to bolster their case. Of course the famine genocide was the product of Nazis and their sympathizers in the first place so this shouldn't be a surprise.

BTW guys, I was wondering if we could find a Turkish-nationalist, so he could intern deny that the Armenian Genocide actually took place, or inform us that indeed it was all some British conspiracy.:)

That way we'd have our revisionist-genocide history bases covered! ;)

http://www.p42.org/Nighthawk/owned.jpg

Nickdfresh
09-29-2006, 11:49 AM
Pardon my language in this thread. But few things draw my ire like intellectual laziness spawning mindless apologism and ignorance.

Gen. Sandworm
09-29-2006, 11:52 AM
K this will be the only warning stop with the harsh and insulting language towards each other. Has no place here. Debate in an adult manner.

Also would like to add the new warning/infraction system is in effect.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?p=88548#post88548

Read here.

Sneaksie
09-29-2006, 12:05 PM
The Stalinist also "planted" Russians (a policy of competent imperialists everywhere) in the Ukraine and attempted to expunge the identity of Ukrainian culture. There can be no argument of these facts despite your rosy , dewy assessment of Ukrainians needing Russians to rule them, and any links you provide.

I suspect many Ukrainians would view this assessment as somewhat disparaging.


In Russian Empire or USSR there were no such thing as 'ruling nation' or 'title nation' AT ALL. No one 'ruled' Ukranians, Tatars, Belorussians or Russians, because all they are Russians in more wide sense. No one endangered Ukrainian culture because it was integral part of Russian culture, Russian culture is unimaginable without Ukrainian, Belorussian, etc. People even today often call themselves 'Russians' even if they hair are black as coal (classic Russian look is white hair, blue eyes). Life in Ukraine was exactly as it was in Russia. It was absolutely no difference of rights or anything depending where you live - in Kiev or Kazan aside from more warm or more harsh climate and local cultural traditions. Ukranians or any other race were never a defeated or 'lesser' nation. The question of who was lesser or who was major in Russia is absurd - it was multi-national in all times with no nation being less or more 'equal'.

Sneaksie
09-29-2006, 12:14 PM
I should point out that most of my "defense" of Stalin's history actually was the result of years I spent as an activist repeating anti-Stalin, anti-Communist claims, including the famine genocide(that is why I am already famliar with Infoukes). I do however have a great concern for objectivity and over time I began to have doubts about the accuracy of the claims I was repeating. It seemed like I could never find concrete proof of this or that massacre. Still I thought that those who denied things like the famine or the millions killed in the Great Purge had to have been crazy.

I struggled with the problem of proof for about two years until I finally decided to read what the other side said- and then it became clear why I could never find that concrete evidence I was searching for. It just doesn't exist.

Much respect to you! It is very difficult to accept something so contrary to your initial opinion.

Nickdfresh
09-29-2006, 12:21 PM
In Russian Empire or USSR there were no such thing as 'ruling nation' or 'title nation' AT ALL. No one 'ruled' Ukranians, Tatars, Belorussians or Russians, because all they are Russians in more wide sense. No one endangered Ukrainian culture because it was integral part of Russian culture, Russian culture is unimaginable without Ukrainian, Belorussian, etc. People even today often call themselves 'Russians' even if they hair are black as coal (classic Russian look is white hair, blue eyes). Life in Ukraine was exactly as it was in Russia. It was absolutely no difference of rights or anything depending where you live - in Kiev or Kazan aside from more warm or more harsh climate and local cultural traditions. Ukranians or any other race were never a defeated or 'lesser' nation. The question of who was lesser or who was major in Russia is absurd - it was multi-national in all times with no nation being less or more 'equal'.

Oh, that's a another fascinating, rosy contention.

So why did all of these nations bolt this wonderful confederation of tolerance and goodwill that was the U.S.S.R. the minute, no the second, Communism ended?


The intellectual background and rationale for current archival Ucrainica retrieval efforts abroad are quite different. Today the aim is to open Ukrainian historical and cultural research in the broadest possible extent, and to reunite the Ukrainian diaspora with the now independent homeland. Present efforts and the rationale behind them should be seen first and foremost as stemming from the renaissance of a national historical and cultural identity in Ukraine in the wake of the collapse of the Soviet Union. Freed from the narrow shackles of Soviet ideology and its concomitant cultural iron curtain, Ukrainian scholars and cultural leaders have been acutely aware of the need to rewrite their political and cultural history based on newly opened archives at home and access to Western interpretive literature and divergent methodologies. Equally important, they are anxious to redefine their own historiographic and cultural context following decades of a political regime that sought to redefine Ukrainian culture in a narrow Soviet and often russified Soviet image. Today, Ukrainian intellectuals of all shades in the political spectrum are seeking reintegration with the "lost" or exiled Ukrainian history and culture in emigration.

Link (http://www.archives.gov.ua/Eng/Prague.php)

Gen. Sandworm
09-29-2006, 12:44 PM
Nick your last post was deleted because it was nothing but flaming. Watch yourself. I just put the warning system in effect today......I dont want to use it for the first time today too.

Chevan
09-29-2006, 02:49 PM
So why did all of these nations bolt this wonderful confederation of tolerance and goodwill that was the U.S.S.R. the minute, no the second, Communism ended?

Your mind ended...
In 1991 absolutly most of peoples of USSR voted in referendum for the saving ot Union state in territory USSR, but native elites wished a power for yourself.
After the separation of national republics USSR disappeared.
NAtional elite got its own little "kingdoms" , but all the simple peoples losed very much.
Condition of life was made worst , appeared bloody national conflicts ...

Sneaksie
09-29-2006, 03:47 PM
Oh, that's a another fascinating, rosy contention.

So why did all of these nations bolt this wonderful confederation of tolerance and goodwill that was the U.S.S.R. the minute, no the second, Communism ended?

Of course there were problems which doomed USSR, but there were no racial problems or segregation at all. There is much less differences between Ukrainians and Russians than between americans which ancestors came from Ireland or americans which ancestors came from Britain for example. While you can recognize Irish people by their look, it is impossible to tell who is Ukrainian and who is Russian by look. Accent may help, but Ukrainian accent is identical to accent of South Russia. And all this vice-versa - Ukrainian can came to any town in Russia and feel right at home. Almost every family have relatives in Russia.

Link you've provided - sorry, but this is typical ukraine nationalists opinion. There is a party in Ukraine today which praise UNA para-military forces which fought on Hitler's side. The Ukraine today is divided country - anti-russian opinion exists almost only in western part, Galicia (which was part of Poland immediately before the war) and in capital while south and east are fully pro-russian. Because of this there is a state of a permanent political crisis during last years - the country is divided and people despise each other depending on their political opinion. Tough situation.

BTW, my grandmother and grandfather are from Ukraine, they've lived in Charkov before war and were evacuated to Siberia. Charkov itself was completely destroyed and rebuilt from scratch.

Listen to Jasa - his ancestors were from Ukraine. We're not lying to you.

Nickdfresh
09-29-2006, 03:49 PM
Your mind ended...

How clever! Is this considered flaming too Gen. Sandstorm? After the upteenth warning and anti-Semitic baiting by this fool? :rolleyes:


In 1991 absolutly most of peoples of USSR voted in referendum for the saving ot Union state in territory USSR, but native elites wished a power for yourself.

Really, I guess everybody was happy under a Communist dictatorship, but yet it fell apart, and only the "native elites" that didn't want back in?


After the separation of national republics USSR disappeared.
NAtional elite got its own little "kingdoms" , but all the simple peoples losed very much.

Many simple people did lose from what I gathered. But they didn't exactly live well under the USSR, and the state had been losing money and had had serious economic troubles since at least the late 1960s. And I thought they attempted to maintain the Commonwealth of Independent States for a while??


Condition of life was made worst , appeared bloody national conflicts ...

Perhaps. But conditions never seemed all that great previously. And conflicts where appearing all over the USSR anyways.

Nickdfresh
09-29-2006, 04:05 PM
Of course there were problems which doomed USSR, but there were no racial problems or segregation at all.

This is simply not true. Many Jews and some of the non-Slavic races claimed that there was discrimination.


There is much less differences between Ukrainians and Russians than between americans which ancestors came from Ireland or americans which ancestors came from Britain for example. While you can recognize Irish people by their look, it is impossible to tell who is Ukrainian and who is Russian by look. Accent may help, but Ukrainian accent is identical to accent of South Russia. And all this vice-versa - Ukrainian can came to any town in Russia and feel right at home. Almost every family have relatives in Russia.

Perhaps, but there is definitely a separate identity, and everything I've read states that perhaps the Ukrainians may have a bit a difference of opinion on this. But nobody is from the Ukraine here apparently to tell us first hand.

And I believe a better analogy for Americans would be Canada, which I will discuss a little later in this post.


Link you've provided - sorry, but this is typical ukraine nationalists opinion.

Funny, but many would say exactly the same thing some of the very pro-Soviet points of view presented here.


There is a party in Ukraine today which praise UNA para-military forces which fought on Hitler's side. The Ukraine today is divided country - anti-russian opinion exists almost only in western part, Galicia (which was part of Poland immediately before the war) and in capital while south and east are fully pro-russian. Because of this there is a state of a permanent political crisis during last years - the country is divided and people despise each other depending on their political opinion. Tough situation.

Yes well, the link was too an official Ukrainian gov't site. And I think their opinion may in fact have more basis in fact that there is a seperate identity and language.

And I think I also read (quickly) that they cited Ukrainians that held positions of power with the USSR at the time. And it didn't quite strike me as pro-Nazi.

I don't think you have the right to speak for them either, no more so than I have the right to speak for Canadians. I actually have a very slight Canadian accent in my dialect, since I live in what is a border city. But ask a Canadian what they would think of being ruled by Americans, and they'll probably hurl insults at you despite being known as very polite, well-spoken people overall.


BTW, my grandmother and grandfather are from Ukraine, they've lived in Charkov before war and were evacuated to Siberia. Charkov itself was completely destroyed and rebuilt from scratch.

Listen to Jasa - his ancestors were from Ukraine. We're not lying to you.

I'm sorry to hear your grandparents lost their home.

Chevan
09-29-2006, 04:08 PM
Really, I guess everybody was happy under a Communist dictatorship, but yet it fell apart, and only the "native elites" that didn't want back in?

Comunism dictatorship was in your imagination.
I live in USSR 13 years and me and my parents never see the "dictatorship".
And more ,in 1991 in the USSR was more free society then today in some post-USSR "independent" states.



Many simple people did lose from what I gathered. But they didn't exactly live well under the USSR, and the state had been losing money and had had serious economic troubles since at least the late 1960s. And I thought they attempted to maintain the Commonwealth of Independent States for a while??

Commonwealth of Independent States is shit in comparition of USSR. CIS couldn't capable normaly to solve the problems, because native elited didn't wish to act in common rules.
And don't tell for us please about life in USSR.
You know it just from reading of sources.( which was political subjective).
You are wery fun in comparition with Jasa, he is really know the live in USSR and Russia.
You are just senseless apologist :)

Chevan
09-29-2006, 04:19 PM
I don't think you have the right to speak for them either, no more so than I have the right to speak for Canadians. I actually have a very slight Canadian accent in my dialect, since I live in what is a border city. But ask a Canadian what they would think of being ruled by Americans, and they'll probably hurl insults at you despite being known as very polite, well-spoken people overall.

.

Nobody of russians try to speak for the ukraines.
But Eastern ukrainian peoples mostly wish to live in friendship with russians. And they are carefully listen the russian oppinion about situation in Ukraine.
Personaly i have a relatives in Ukraine (in Charkov too) and i troubled for its fate.
And i absolutly don't need the advices in example with Canada.

Nickdfresh
09-29-2006, 04:29 PM
Comunism dictatorship was in your imagination.
I live in USSR 13 years and me and my parents never see the "dictatorship".
And more ,in 1991 in the USSR was more free society then today in some post-USSR "independent" states.

Okay, you are correct. There was no dictatorship, and the Premiers were elected every few years and served until they died or were relieved. And BTW, freedom is slavery, war is peace.:)


Commonwealth of Independent States is shit in comparition of USSR. CIS couldn't capable normaly to solve the problems, because native elited didn't wish to act in common rules.
And don't tell for us please about life in USSR.

Chevan, I've never tried to tell anybody what their "life was like." Indeed, Jasa and I were discussing a country that he does not live in, and events that happened over 70-years ago. I doubt, unless he's in his 80s which I also doubt, that he has any first hand recollections of the events of this discussion.


You know it just from reading of sources.( which was political subjective).
You are wery fun in comparition with Jasa, he is really know the live in USSR and Russia.
You are just senseless apologist :)

Jasa lived in the Ukraine during the famines? Served in WWII? Interesting.

And Chevan, I am truthfully not trying to be a ***** when I say the following. I realize that I have to forgive your diction because as it was pointed out to me, English is your second or third or whatever language. And I believe you said you use a translator to assist you, but much unlike your friends and fellow Russians, you come across as immature in many of your responses. Kindly point out where I have "apologised" for any negative historical events?

Nickdfresh
09-29-2006, 04:33 PM
Nobody of russians try to speak for the ukraines.
But Eastern ukrainian peoples mostly wish to live in friendship with russians. And they are carefully listen the russian oppinion about situation in Ukraine.
Personaly i have a relatives in Ukraine (in Charkov too) and i troubled for its fate.

I can agree with this wholeheartedly, of course Ukrainians and Russians want to live together peacefully, with mutually beneficial defense and economic pacts.


And i absolutly don't need the advices in example with Canada.

That was a response directed towards Sneaksie in regards too his use of examples...

Chevan
09-29-2006, 05:03 PM
Okay, you are correct. There was no dictatorship, and the Premiers were elected every few years and served until they died or were relieved. And BTW, freedom is slavery, war is peace.:)

It was not actual for simple soviet peoples.
Really ,soviet life was a little dull (neither political murders nor terrorists nor of homosexuals on the TV) but as a whole everything was normally.


Chevan, I've never tried to tell anybody what their "life was like." Indeed, Jasa and I were discussing a country that he does not live in, and events that happened over 70-years ago.

in contrast to you, Jasa could have a close contacts with peoples who lived in USSR in past.




Jasa lived in the Ukraine during the famines? Served in WWII? Interesting.

No he didn't. But he know the a lot of live Ukrainians whom ancestors told them about famies in Ukraine.
I have a lot of elderly relevants , who remember much more details which you ever never could find in net.

You could tell to Lancer about aborigens in Australia having the same the resault as you told for us about "Comunism dictatorship" in USSR.


Kindly point out where I have "apologised" for any negative historical events?
And where was i as "apologised", as you named me.

Sneaksie
09-29-2006, 05:23 PM
And I think I also read (quickly) that they cited Ukrainians that held positions of power with the USSR at the time. And it didn't quite strike me as pro-Nazi.

It's not pro-Nazi, it's official after all. But most Ukrainian nationalists claim that UPA was fighting communism together with Hitler and are proud for it. More calmer nationalists say that it fought against Red Army AND Wermacht (no, actually).


I don't think you have the right to speak for them either, no more so than I have the right to speak for Canadians. I actually have a very slight Canadian accent in my dialect, since I live in what is a border city. But ask a Canadian what they would think of being ruled by Americans, and they'll probably hurl insults at you despite being known as very polite, well-spoken people overall.

I have many relatives in Ukraine. Again, it's not the case of who ruled who. Canada is not so good example, it was never integral part of USA. It's more like Texas nationalists would claim that they were opressed by 'Washingtonians'. Some of Ukrainians may find my words insulting, but it's not the case. Texas undoubtedly has it's own cultural uniquely features which together with other states culture and traditions form american culture and the american society as a whole. In tzarist Russia or USSR it was exactly like this, only borders between 'states' were far less visible (in USA different states may have different laws - unthinkable in USSR). There are even nationalists in Texas too i heard, but of course no one listen to them seriously. To summarize, modern Texas in USA is like Ukraine republic in USSR in terms of relations between it and other states. Texas was even independent state in early history of USA if i recall correctly.


I'm sorry to hear your grandparents lost their home.
Appreciate it. Actually they were lucky - they've lost their home when many lost their lives (their firstborn child died though).

Jasa
09-30-2006, 12:31 AM
Oh and Jasa, which one of the "sources" you've provided states that the Ukrainian Famine of 1932-33 was a product of "the Nazis?" I'd really like to see that since Hitler did not fully take power until 1933, or is that also an inconvenient statement you'd like to ignore and forget also?

All of the sources I provided detail how the Nazis advanced the famine genocide claim.

As I stated before, the Nazis had their own press and propaganda machine BEFORE THEY CAME TO POWER. Hitler contemplated German domination of Ukraine in Mein Kampf, written long before they came to power.

Also if I were you I wouldn't talk about "ignorance" since you certainly didn't win any points in the "Knowing about Ukraine" event.





That way we'd have our revisionist-genocide history bases covered! ;)




Logical fallacy, assuming that the methodology of these two forms of "revisionism" is the same, and assuming that the amount of evidence for each genocide is the same. The Holocaust has produced thousands of photos for example, while the famine genocide rests on a handful of photos that have long since been proven to have originated in 1921-22.

Nickdfresh
09-30-2006, 06:59 AM
All of the sources I provided detail how the Nazis advanced the famine genocide claim.

As I stated before, the Nazis had their own press and propaganda machine BEFORE THEY CAME TO POWER. Hitler contemplated German domination of Ukraine in Mein Kampf, written long before they came to power.

So, much like Katyn, it was all the Nazis fault. But the guy who gives me selective sources written by communists and hack journalists is the one I'm supposed to trust?


Also if I were you I wouldn't talk about "ignorance" since you certainly didn't win any points in the "Knowing about Ukraine" event.


Logical fallacy, assuming that the methodology of these two forms of "revisionism" is the same, and assuming that the amount of evidence for each genocide is the same. The Holocaust has produced thousands of photos for example, while the famine genocide rests on a handful of photos that have long since been proven to have originated in 1921-22.


So what we've learned from this thread is that the independent Ukrainian gov't are liars. And the Russian gov't can be trusted to tell the truth related to actions they committed as the dominant power in the SU?

And again, do you care to address the declassified NKVD documents? Or is everything you say just ***-covering crap for your red-fascist hero Stalin?

Nickdfresh
09-30-2006, 07:02 AM
The best source for debunking the Holocaust-revisionist claims is Nizkor.org's 66 Questions and Answers rebuttal...

For debunking of the Ukrainian "famine genocide" one can find online Douglas Tottle's Ukrainian Famine: Famine, Fraud, and Fascism, among other sources.

The famine story was advanced by the fanatical OUN fascists and helped by the Nazi press as well as the American Hearst press. When the story became popular again during the Cold War, the culprits were ex-OUN emigres, many of them wanted for possible war crimes.

Funny, but here is what a site that you have admitted as reliable about InfoUkes:


Ukraine

InfoUkes: The Artificial Famine in Ukraine 1932-33

The InfoUkes Introduction:

"A Man-Made Famine raged through Ukraine, the ethnic-Ukrainian region of northern Caucasus, and the lower Volga River region in 1932-33. This resulted in the death of between 7 to 10 million people, mainly Ukrainians. This was instigated by Soviet leader Joseph Stalin and his henchman Lazar Kaganovich. The main goal of this artificial famine was to break the spirit of the Ukrainian farmer/peasant and to force them into collectivization. The famine was also used as an effective tool to break the renaissance of Ukrainian culture that was occuring under approval of the communist government in Ukraine. Moscow perceived this as a threat to a Russo-Centric Soviet rule and therefore acted to crush this cultural renaissance in a most brutal manner.

In 1932, the Soviets increased the grain procurement quota for Ukraine by 44%. They were aware that this extraordinarly high quota would result in a grain shortage, therefore resulting in the inability of the Ukrainian peasant to feed themselves. Soviet law was quite clear in that no grain could be given to feed the peasants until the quota was met. Communist party officials with the aid of military trrops and NKVD secret police units were used to move against peasants who may be hiding grain from the Soviet government. Even worse, an internal passport system was implemented to restrict movements of Ukrainian peasants so that they could not travel in search of food. Ukrainian grain was collected and stored in grain elevators that were guarded by military units & NKVD secret police units while Ukrainians were starving in the immediate area. The actions of this Moscow instigated action was a deliberate act of genocide against the Ukrainian peasant.

These series of pages are intended to educate the general populace about this little known event in Ukrainian history. InfoUkes hopes to add to this series of pages in the upcoming year."


http://www.nizkor.org/other-sites/genocides.html#UKRAINE

So, are the Holocaust sites also colluding with ex-Nazis/sympathizers?

BTW, your source is shit! Douglas Tottle's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Tottle) sole journalistic qualification is that he edited the very lame United Steel Workers Journal, and wrote for a newspaper that is considered a crackpot joke in the U.S. (The Village Voice :lol: ) Incidentally, the USWs also is considered a joke of a very week union, not even recognized in many U.S. cities since there are very few steel foundries left in America, as I should know, since I have some ties to the U.S. labor movement in my line of work.

So, we're supposed to believe the ramblings of some crack-pot buffoon with possible Communist sympathies who has questionable scholarship credentials? Yet he questions serious academics at Ivy-League U.S. Universities? And ask any American conservative if they regard Harvard or Columbia Universities as the bastion of rightist fascism? They'll laugh in your face! LMFAO!!

Your posts are becoming more and more feeble...

Nickdfresh
09-30-2006, 07:06 AM
THE 70th ANNIVERSARY OF THE FAMINE-GENOCIDE IN UKRAINE

FOR THE RECORD: Remarks by Prof. Mark von Hagen at Columbia

Following are the opening remarks of Prof. Mark von Hagen at the International Conference at Columbia University on "The Man-Made Great Famine in Ukraine of 1932-1933 (Holodomor)" held on Monday, November 10.

Welcome to Columbia University, its School of International and Public Affairs and the Ukrainian Studies Program of the Harriman Institute. We are honored by your participation; many members of the audience are no less experts on the subject of our conference than the formal panelists, so we look forward to an exciting day of discussions and exchange.

The Famine-Genocide of 1932-1933 in Ukraine, Kazakstan and parts of Russia was a particularly stark demonstration of the brutality of the Soviet regime and how far it had betrayed its Social-Democratic commitment to creating better lives for the peasants and workers of the Soviet Union.

The goal of collectivization, in whose name the Famine was tolerated and exacerbated by consciously murderous measures, was acknowledged even by Soviet sources, at least after Stalin's death, to have been a colossal economic and political failure. Not only did the wasteful and ill-prepared collectivization drives set back agricultural productivity and turn the peasantry into bitter enemies of the Soviet regime; another important casualty of the collectivization and famine was the Soviet citizenry's right to a truthful and open discussion about all important social or political issues, a trend that had been emerging, it is true, from the first days after the Bolshevik seizure of power in 1917. The NKVD rose to a position of immense power during the collectivization campaigns and insisted on ever higher levels of classification, secrecy and censorship in all public documents and speeches, culminating in an important sense in the 55-year denial of the man-made Famine in Ukraine and elsewhere in the Soviet Union.

Compounding this conspiracy of silence ruthlessly enforced by the Soviet government was the complicity of many governments of "civilized" peoples and the reporters of the foreign press in Moscow, most notoriously Walter Duranty of The New York Times. But, sadly, professional historians reinforced this silence with their own denials until recently, despite the overwhelming evidence of oral history testimonies recorded from survivors and eyewitnesses in the Ukrainian diaspora populations of North America.

Much has changed in the past dozen years. Ukrainian state independence and the parallel declarations of independence by Ukrainian historians from Moscow narratives and silences, the opening of previously classified party, state and police archives - have made possible publications that document the Famine and break the decades of officially imposed silence in the country for which this tragic event has the most political, moral and social significance. Restoring the truth about the Famine-Genocide is one of the central tasks in reshaping Ukrainian historical and civic consciousness and in its de-Sovietization. Accordingly, Ukrainian parliamentary deputies organized hearings earlier this year which resulted in resolutions demanding that the Ukrainian government work with the international community to gain recognition for this tragedy as a criminal violation of human rights and lives.

A new generation of North American and European historians has been responsive to the changes in archival access and to the revision of the historical record by our Ukrainian colleagues and has dramatically recast the terms of debate on the Famine.

Our conference today is the first full-fledged exploration of the political, historical and socio-cultural aspects of the Famine-Genocide at Columbia University, but ours is not unique. Similar conferences have been held or are being planned at our sister institutions across North America - Harvard, Stanford, the Kennan Institute, the University of Toronto, and others. All these institutions have committed significant resources to Ukrainian studies and all acknowledge the centrality of the history of the Famine-Genocide to an understanding of Ukraine's fate in the 20th century.

These conferences demonstrate that, for all the new documents, indeed thanks to the flood of new information, there is still room for scholars, political and civic leaders, and concerned citizens to debate important aspects of the Famine-Genocide: its relationship to assaults on the Ukrainian cultural and political elites, its ties to parallel famines in Russian regions and Kazakstan, even the proper name for this catastrophe, whether Famine-Genocide, man-made or artificial Famine, or some other variant.

This fact nonetheless testifies to a new phase in our understanding of the history of this tragic episode and comes just as the original generation of survivors and eyewitnesses to the Famine-Genocide are themselves becoming silenced through death and illness. The Ukrainian hromada abroad has been an important, indeed very important, part of the story of today's conference. The persistence patience, and courage of a generation of survivors - and now their children and grandchildren - has preserved the precious collective memory of these events and published research based on the available archives of foreign governments and international organizations. That generation belatedly joined by those survivors inside Ukraine itself who could speak the truth publicly only after independence, are the human voices that have kept this tragic history from complete oblivion over the decades.

These, in short, are the concerns and issues that we have tried to bring together in our conference today and which also reflect the generous contributions of our many partners in this unique collaboration - from the hromada civic and scholarly organizations, the Shevchenko Scientific Society, the Ukrainian Academy of Arts and Sciences in America, the Ukrainian Congress Committee of America, and the Ukrainian Studies Fund; the Ukrainian government and its Permanent Mission to the United Nations; leading archivists from Ukraine's State Committee on Archives; and the private and non-profit sector, in the persons of Primary Source Microfilms/Gale Group and the foundation of Yaroslav Chelak.

Once again, welcome from the faculty, staff and students of Columbia University and best wishes for a productive conference.

Copyright The Ukrainian Weekly, November 30, 2003, No. 48, Vol. LXXI

http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/2003/480319.shtml

Nickdfresh
09-30-2006, 07:31 AM
THE LAST STAND OF THE UKRAINIAN FAMINE-GENOCIDE


By Dr. Roman Serbyn, Professor of Russian and East European History
University of Quebec, Montreal, Canada
The Ukrainian Canadian magazine, February, 1989



Concluding his review of Douglas Tottle's book "Fraud, Famine and Fascism," Wilfred Szczesny writes: "Members of the general public who want to know about the famine, its extent and causes, and about the motives and techniques of those who would make this tragedy into something other than what it was will find Tottle's work invaluable." (The Ukrainian Canadian, April, 1988, p.24) In the era of glasnost, Szczesny could have rendered his readers no greater disservice.

For an editor-in-chief of a Ukrainian magazine to invite people to consult Tottle's tract is as appropriate as for a publisher of a Jewish periodical to recommend "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century" by the Holocaust denier A.R. Butz. lf in Szczesny's statement quoted above the reader substitutes "Holocaust" for "famine" and "Butz" for "Tottle", the affront to the reader's dignity in both cases will become apparent. Tottle is no more interested in discovering the truth about the forced starvation of Ukrainians than Butz about the gassing of Jews.

Tottle is a self-confessed famine-genocide denier. No longer able to negate the famine as such, Tottle questions its genocidal character. Traditional famine-denial has been updated to famine-genocide denial, but the essence of the ideological trappings is the same. Today's famine-genocide deniers are the spiritual heirs of the first famine negators, Stalin and those who helped him carry out the most heinous of crimes against the Ukrainian nation or to deny its existence.

With his book Douglas Tottle has become a sort of guru to a strange collection of latterday famine-genocide deniers. He has inspired militant articles by Jeff Coplon ("In Search of a Soviet Holocaust", Village Voice, 12 January, 1988); Wilfred Szczesny ("Fraud, Famine and Fascism", The Ukrainian Canadian, April, 1988); and Donne Flanagan ("The Ukrainian Famine: Fact or Fiction", McGill Daily, 22 November, 1988). How vile and trite is the campaign of the famine-genocide deniers should become clear from the following three examples of how Tottle practices the misdeeds of which he accuses others.

First, let us consider the photographs of the famine. Tottle latches on to them as if they were the main proof of the historicity of the tragedy and the principle argument for its classification as genocide. Tottle does this because he thinks that the photographs form a weak link in the famine-genocide story: break this link and the whole structure will collapse. Well, this is not so. The famine has a solid documentary basis (documents published in the West and in the Soviet Union) of which the photographs form a very minor (and I might add, dispensable) component. There are few photographs from the 1932-33 famine and we could hardly expect otherwise, since the totalitarian regime wanted to keep the famine hidden and took the necessary measures to ensure this.

Many more photographs have come down to us from the earlier Soviet famine of 1921-23. Some of these pictures were eventually used in connection with the second famine and this fact provided Tottle with his basic argument against the famine-genocide: photographs depicting a natural famine of 1921-22 in Russia are used as proof of man-made starvation in Ukraine in 1932-33. To make his accusation stick, Tottle resorts to a mixture of irrelevant truths, half-truths and outright lies.

Tottle constantly refers to the Russian famine of 1921-22, but never mentions the contemporaneous famine in Ukraine. Yet most of Tottle's "illustrative" material is taken from Ukraine and not Russia. On page 32, Tottle reproduces three title pages of what he describes as "publications devoted to the Russian famine of 1921-22", even though two of them deal only with Ukraine. One is "Holod na Ukraini," an excellent documentary by Ivan Herasymovych based on personal observations and containing excerpts from the Soviet Ukrainian press and a number of photographs. Tottle identifies the second text (the reduced reproduction is almost illegible to the naked eye) as "Dr. Fridjof Nansen's International Committee for Russian Relief, Information No.22, Geneva, April 30, 1922", but fails to give the title of the report contained on that page. It reads: "Famine Situation in Ukrania". With the help of a magnifying glass the reader can decipher the following revealing information about the famine conditions in Ukraine, sent by Nansen's representative from Kharkiv on 22 March, 1922:

"(N)ot before the 11th of January of this year could the goubernia of Donetz stop their obligatory relief work for the Volga district and begin to take care with all their forces of their own famine problem, at a time when already more than every tenth person in the Donetz was without bread. In the beginning of March this year, you could still see, in the famine-stricken goubernia Nicolaev (Mykolaiv), placards with 'Working masses of Nikolaev (sic), to the help of the starving Volga district!' The goubernia of Nicolaev itself had at the same time 700,000 starving people, about half the population. On my way to Ukrania I sought information in Moscow about the situation from presumably well informed persons. They told me that in Ukrania the situation was very bad, about half a million people starving. In reality the number was more than six times greater."

Further on, the envoy continues:

"The whole of the 4 goubernias of Odessa, Nicolaev, Yekaterinioslav (Katerynoslav), and Donetz, as well as the southern parts of Krementchoug, Poltava and Kharkov, are stricken by famine. Of a total population of about 16 million in these goubernias, between four and five millions are now starving, and before the new harvest the number will perhaps have risen to between six and seven millions. Almost the whole population of Ukrania is suffering to a certain extent from lack of food and all the conveniences of life, but the above mentioned millions are literally starving to death." (p.2)

In a follow-up report, dated 13 April, 1922, and reproduced in the same document, we read:

"Five million persons are now without food and probably more than ten thousand die daily of starvation... In a word, the famine has reached such dimensions and such insignificant relief is given, that the starving population loses every hope and dies." (p.30)

What Nansen's man was describing was the first man-made famine in Ukraine which lasted from 1921 to 1923 (and not 1922) and took 1.5 to 2 million lives. In spite of the drought in its southern provinces, Ukraine had enough grain to feed its population, provided the foodstuffs were kept in the country and not exported. But during these two years Soviet authorities removed enough agricultural produce from Ukraine to feed several times the population which died from hunger. Ukrainian grain was sent to Russia both years to feed the cities and the famished population on the Volga. (A severe famine was also ravaging southern Russia, especially the Volga region.) The second year it was also sold in Western Europe. Aid offered by foreign countries was accepted immediately for the Volga region but let into Ukraine only eight months later.

Since both famines in Ukraine were manmade, it was quite legitimate to use in the film Harvest of Despair photographs from the famine of the 1920's along with those of the 1930's. The weakness of the film lies not in these photographs but in the insufficient explanation the film gave of the first famine. This shortcoming has no bearing on the authenticity of the famine-genocide of the 1930's. To suggest the opposite, as Tottle, Coplon, Flannagan and Szczesny do, is to display ignorance or lack of intellectual integrity.

Second, let us see how even the great Ukrainian historian Mykhailo Hrushevsky is made to serve the famine-genocide deniers' propaganda machine. Szczesny writes:

"Tottle cites a number of historians and other writers whose works contradict the claim that the famine was a deliberate act of genocide, including Isaac Mazepa amd M. Hrushevsky, both of whom discuss the causes of the famine with no suggestion that it was a deliberate effort to destroy the Ukrainian people."

Taken at face value, Szczesny's contention sounds serious. If Ukraine's foremost historian could analyze the famine and find no deliberate action against the Ukrainian people, then surely his findings carry more weight than the claims of lesser scholars. And yet to anyone the least familiar with contemporary Ukrainian it sounds incredible that Hrushevsky should have written such things about the famine. What are the facts?

Cont'd

Nickdfresh
09-30-2006, 07:32 AM
Douglas Tottle: The David Irving of the Ukraine Genocide Part II-

In 1941, Yale University Press published a translation of Michael Hrushevsky's "History of Ukraine." As the Ukrainian text stopped in 1905, the editor, Professor O.J. Frederiksen of Miami University (Ohio), decided to update it. Two chapters were added. One, entitled "Ukrainian Independence", covered the period 1914-1918 and was based on Hrushevsky's other writings. The second chapter, "Recent Ukraine", brought the events up to 1940; it was written by the editor from notes provided by Dr. Luke Myshuha and had nothing to do with Hrushevsky.

In the Frederiksen/Myshuha chapter references to the 1932-33 famine are very skimpy, but there are two passages (p.566) that have some bearing on the subject. Skrypnyk, the Commissar of Education in Soviet Ukraine, is reported as having "committed suicide in 1933 in protest against Soviet policies there, and in particular against the export of foodstuffs". It is also claimed that after a year of drought and chaotic agricultural conditions, "during the winter of 1932-33 a great famine, like that of 1921-22, swept across Soviet Ukraine, again costing the lives of several million men, women and children." (My emphasis - R.S.) In the next paragraph the reader learns that "Hrushevsky was arrested in 1930 and transferred from Kiev to a town near Moscow; he died on November 26, 1934, at Kislovodsk, in the northern Caucasus."

Cont'd

Nickdfresh
09-30-2006, 07:33 AM
Douglas Tottle: The David Irving of the Ukraine Genocide Part III-

Now let us see how Tottle reconstructs these references:

"However, "A History of Ukraine" by Mikhail (sic) Hrushevsky - described by the Nationalists themselves as 'Ukraine's leading historian' - states: 'Again a year of drought coincided with chaotic agricultural conditions; and during the winter of 1932-33 a great famine, like that of 1921-1922, swept across Soviet Ukraine...' Indeed, nowhere does History of Ukraine claim a deliberate, man-made famine against Ukrainians and more space is actually devoted to the famine of 1921-22." (p.91)

Tottle then adds laconically that Hrushevsky's was published posthumously in 1941 and that it was updated to 1940 based on notes by Dr. Luke Myshuha. Tottle does not deem it necessary to mention the work of Professor Frederiksen, or to specify when and where Hrushevsky died, although these facts are essential to appreciate the reference to the famine. He does, however, go out of his way to point out that Myshuha was "editor-in-chief of Svoboda", and that he had "visited Berlin in 1939, speaking over Nazi radio in Ukrainian," (p. 92) information quite irrelevant to the analysis of the famine, but necessary to make the perfidious famine-Nazi link which I shall discuss further on.

Here again we have a mixture of irrelevant truths, misleading half-truths, and lies. The comments by Myshuha/Frederiksen on the famine are deformed (damaging reference to Skrypnyk's suicide to protest the export of grain while several million starved is left out), and even though Tottle does not actually attribute them to Hrushevsky, he words his statement in such a way as to create that impression. Whether Szczesny was privy to Tottle's ruse or was duped by the insinuation, the result is the same; a lie about Hrushevsky's alleged denial of the famine-genocide.

Third, a few words are in order on the subliminal Nazification of the Ukrainian famine-genocide. If there is one common denominator to all the famine-genocide denial literature, it is the effort to tie the Ukrainian famine to the Nazis and sandwich between them that part of the Ukrainian diaspora which defends the right of the Ukrainian nation to exist as a sovereign state. Genocide deniers would be happiest if they could blame the famine on the Nazis and the "Ukrainian collaborators" as Stalin pinned Katyn on the Germans. But since this can not be done, they try the next best thing: link with Nazis those who speak out about the famine (including famine survivors and descendants of famine victims).

On the cover of Tottle's book one can see a photograph of a woman with an undernourished child, and looming over the photograph a hand with a paintbrush. The brush is about to be dipped into oilpaint profusely pouring out of a tube marked with a swastika. What a disgusting spectacle, and yet how descriptive of the author and the book! Isn't Tottle getting ready to apply Nazi colours to the famine victims?

When one checks the book's table of contents one notices that only one chapter is classified as "famine", the other nine deal with "fraud" and "Fascism". In fact, at least ten times as much space is devoted to the task of making the famine-Fascism connection as is given to the study of the famine. Unabashed, the author admits that he "does not attempt to study the famine in any detailed way". (p.1) He is more interested in the "Nazi and fascist connections" and the "coverups of wartime collaboration" (p.3). Both topics, even if they had been objectively treated, are completely irrelevant to the study of the famine and can neither prove nor disprove the existence of the famine or define the nature of the tragedy. (Many of Tottle's attacks on the various segments of the Ukrainian diaspora constitute hate literature and should be dealt with in our courts of law.)

The attempt to hush up serious examination and legitimate condemnation of the famine-genocide, or to dismiss it as Nazi-related propaganda, makes the writings of Tottle and the other famine-genocide deniers particularly repugnant. They have the impudence to desecrate the memory of millions of innocent people deliberately starved to death by criminals who have never even been punished for their diabolical act. Perhaps it was people like the famine-genocide deniers that Oleksandr Dovzhenko had in mind when he made this entry in his diary written on the German front on May 4, 1942:

"If all the heroism of the sons of Ukraine in the Fatherland war, all the sacrifices and suffering of (its) people, and all (their) victorious energy after the war, cunning hands and pens of certain clever fellows throw into a common...pot, and on account of Ukrainians, these same hands thrust artificially created Hitlerite Petliurivshchyna and anti-Semitism with all the consequences of slaughter-houses, it would be better for me to die and no longer witness human baseness, bottomless hate, and fathomless eternal lies which entangle us. (Dnipro, 1988, No.10, p.89)

In his review of Tottle's book Szczesny writes:

"The theory of the big lie is that the bigger the lie and the more often it is repeated, the more it will be believed." (p.22) Szczesny should have added that in order to render their own lie more credible, the hoaxsters accuse their opponents of the deception they themselves practice, while presenting their own fabrication as a corrective to their opponents' alleged lie. Need we be reminded that the real hoax is not the Holocaust but what Butz has to say about it and the great fraud is not the famine-genocide but Tottle's treatment of it?

Documents on the famine published recently in the West (M. Carynnyk, et al, "The Foreign Office and the Famine," Kingston, Ont., 1988, and others), and in the Soviet press (isn't it about time that the 'UC' reprinted some of them?) leave no room for doubt that the famine in Ukraine was man-made. As Yuri Shcherbak, the author of a novel on Chornobyl states, "the famine of 1932-33 was in no way a natural disaster. There was no drought, no hurricane as its origin... The Ukrainian harvest of 1932 while not a record one was totally adequate. Yet there was an unusual famine. From the beginning to the end it was organized from the top.... Peasants, packed on train rooftops, tried to flee the famished regions. But on the border between Russia and Ukraine... units of border guards were stationed..." (Sobesednik, Moscow, 1988, No.49)

Is it legitimate to call this famine genocide?

Ten years ago few people outside the Ukrainian diaspora would have ventured such an opinion: in the West because of what was thought to be a lack of reliable evidence (diplomatic archives were closed and testimony from "refugees" was viewed with suspicion), and in the Soviet Union because the very subject was taboo. All this has radically changed in the last few years.

Taking advantage of glasnost, Ukrainians began to speak openly about the crime of the "33rd", calling it "man-made famine", "artificial famine", "extermination by starvation (holodomor). Although they use the more familiar traditional expressions, in their minds these terms are synonymous with genocide". What else is the deliberate starvation of millions of people, if not genocide? Occasionally, one even comes across the words "holocaust" and "genocide" as when Wasyl Pakharenko answered those who do not recognize the specificity of the Ukrainian famine. "The uniqueness of our (Ukrainian) tragedy lies in this that in Ukraine, the social-class genocide coincided with the cultural-national (genocide)." (Molod' Cherkashchyny, Cherkassy, 1988, No.30)

The notion that the famine was genocide is also gaining acceptance in the West. Michael R. Marrus, professor of at the University of Toronto, and the author of "The Holocaust in History," in his forward to The Foreign Office and the Famine (cited above), comes to the conclusion that the evidence presented by the British documents suggests that there was a genocidal attack upon Ukrainians. Leo Kuper, professor emeritus at the UCLA and author of Genocide, a pioneer work on the subject, writes in his latest work "The Prevention of Genocide" about the "many millions who died in the Soviet manmade (sic) famine of 1932-33". Kuper accepts the argument that "this artificially induced famine was in fact an act of genocide, designed...to undermine the social basis of a Ukrainian national renaissance." (p.50)

In the light of all the evidence we now possess on the famine, how bleak and ignoble appear the statements of genocide deniers of the Stalin era (unscrupulous journalists like Walter Duranty of the New York Times, credulous and dishonest intellectuals like the British writer Bernard Shaw, the French politician Edouard Herriot). It took fifty years to debunk their big lie; how long will it take the defenders of truth to dispose of the big lie promoted by Tottle and his supporters? The challenge is before the Ukrainian community. Will The Ukrainian Canadian, for one, have the courage to take it up and make the last stand of the famine-genocide deniers a short one?

THE LAST STAND OF THE UKRAINIAN FAMINE-GENOCIDE
By Dr. Roman Serbyn, Professor of Russian and East European History University of Quebec, Montreal, Canada
The Ukrainian Canadian magazine, February, 1989
FOR PERSONAL AND ACADEMIC USE ONLY

http://www.artukraine.com/famineart/serbyn4.htm

Jasa
09-30-2006, 07:45 AM
Wow, don't see a lot of proof there. Just a lot of attacking and bitching about the evident Nazi-associations. What he chooses is interesting though- for example, he mentions the COVER of Tottle's book. Strange, why didn't he cite any of the excerpts Tottle quoted from Ukrainan nationalist publications dating from the time of writing back to pre-revolutionary times? Simple, because the Ukrainian nationalists OWN words convict them as pro-Fascist. Much better to pick out irrelevent details and pretend that he bases his case on that.

Once again they begin smearing journalists like Walter Duranty. The author gives only a few names but if one looks at Tottle's book he names far more eyewitnesses that directly contradicted those claims many years ago. In the mind of faminologists, ALL these people, of differing nationalities and political ideologies(some of them well-known anti-Communists in their time), are lying "dupes".

Incredibly, the author actually MENTIONS the cover photo, one of the more popular photos used to prove this event. That photo was PROVEN to have originated in a 1921-22 publication!


Swing and a miss.

Jasa
09-30-2006, 07:48 AM
So, much like Katyn, it was all the Nazis fault. But the guy who gives me selective sources written by communists and hack journalists is the one I'm supposed to trust?

The fact that you call them Communists and "hacks" just because they disagree with your viewpoint shows your own bias.





So what we've learned from this thread is that the independent Ukrainian gov't are liars. And the Russian gov't can be trusted to tell the truth related to actions they committed as the dominant power in the SU?

In case you weren't aware the government in Ukraine AND Russia are full of liars.



And again, do you care to address the declassified NKVD documents? Or is everything you say just ***-covering crap for your red-fascist hero Stalin?

More Conquestesque nonsense. WHAT declassified NKVD documents? Everyone thinks they can "prove" this or that by waving something allegedly "declassified by the NKVD".

Nickdfresh
09-30-2006, 07:53 AM
Wow, don't see a lot of proof there. Just a lot of attacking and bitching about the evident Nazi-associations. What he chooses is interesting though- for example, he mentions the COVER of Tottle's book. Strange, why didn't he cite any of the excerpts Tottle quoted from Ukrainan nationalist publications dating from the time of writing back to pre-revolutionary times? Simple, because the Ukrainian nationalists OWN words convict them as pro-Fascist. Much better to pick out irrelevent details and pretend that he bases his case on that.

He supposed to write a book too? He can't discount the entire book in a single essay. BTW, in that "bitching" did you note how he exposed Tottle as a liar-by-ommission?


Once again they begin smearing journalists like Walter Duranty. The author gives only a few names but if one looks at Tottle's book he names far more eyewitnesses that directly contradicted those claims many years ago. In the mind of faminologists, ALL these people, of differing nationalities and political ideologies(some of them well-known anti-Communists in their time), are lying "dupes".

Tottle smears American Academics, does he not? Oh how quint! --still continuing the "everybody who discusses the Ukrainian famine is a secret fascist" myth?


Incredibly, the author actually MENTIONS the cover photo, one of the more popular photos used to prove this event. That photo was PROVEN to have originated in a 1921-22 publication!

LMFAO!! He owns Tottle and his asserstion that the photos somehow represent the whole of the evidence of the Soviet-Holocaust. Tottle is in fact engaged in revisionist cherry-picking.



Swing and a miss.

LOL The last time you said that, you failed to specify WHY Kovalski had "(swung) and missed!"

About the recently declassified documents? Or are you just tantamount ot the latter-day German that denies that there was really a Holocaust?

I guess that must be your catch phrase when own3d with facts.

'Swing and miss' yourself:

http://jtmurphy3.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/own3d.jpg.w300h301.jpg

Jasa
09-30-2006, 07:55 AM
Funny, but here is what a site that you have admitted as reliable about InfoUkes:

http://www.nizkor.org/other-sites/genocides.html#UKRAINE

So, are the Holocaust sites also colluding with ex-Nazis/sympathizers?

Politics make strange bedfellows.




BTW, your source is shit! Douglas Tottle's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Tottle) sole journalistic qualification is that he edited the very lame United Steel Workers Journal, and wrote for a newspaper that is considered a crackpot joke in the U.S. (The Village Voice :lol: )

You call my source "shit" and cite Wikipedia as the source of that. Irony defined.






Incidentally, the USWs also is considered a joke of a very week union, not even recognized in many U.S. cities since there are very few steel foundries left in America, as I should know, since I have some ties to the U.S. labor movement in my line of work.

Resort to ad hominem when you can't refute his arugments, just like the author of the article you posted.



So, we're supposed to believe the ramblings of some crack-pot buffoon with possible Communist sympathies who has questionable scholarship credentials?

Please be specific about which parts of his work are "ramblings". Oh wait that's right, YOU NEVER READ HIS BOOK, even though I told you its available online for free.

HAD you actually READ THE BOOK, you wouldn't have posted that article.




Yet he questions serious academics at Ivy-League U.S. Universities? And ask any American conservative if they regard Harvard or Columbia Universities as the bastion of rightist fascism? They'll laugh in your face! LMFAO!!

Right, because American conservatives aren't BIASED!!! Once again, had you read any of the sources I provided, you would know why your comment here is stupid.

BTW: You have a problem with someone juxtaposing Tottle's work with Harvard professors....but aren't American conservatives doing THE EXACT SAME THING?


[QUOTE=Nickdfresh;88630]
Your posts are becoming more and more feeble...


See you're one of those people who thinks that by saying something it must be true.

You still haven't provided any evidence and your articles are careful to ignore Tottle's main arguments. For example, look at the line where it says most of Tottle's pictures are from Russia in 1922.

NO SHIT!! THAT'S 1/4 OF TOTTLE'S BOOK! Those pictures were said to show the Ukrainian famine of 1932-33, but they are from Russia 1921-22.

Nickdfresh
09-30-2006, 08:00 AM
The fact that you call them Communists and "hacks" just because they disagree with your viewpoint shows your own bias.

LOL You've spent this entire flamewar "exposing" any Ukrainian nationalist in the unenviable position of deciding which evil was greater, as "fascist sympathisers."

What was Tottle's scholarship? Writing for a award-winning Labor 'Journal?'


In case you weren't aware the government in Ukraine AND Russia are full of liars.

Funny, but you seem to buy whatever the Soviet gov't was selling.


More Conquestesque nonsense. WHAT declassified NKVD documents? Everyone thinks they can "prove" this or that by waving something allegedly "declassified by the NKVD".

Oh, I see. There is no "proving" it is there, even though there is substantial evidence of it in Soviet archives, and everybody is a fascist or a liar except you and your little Stalin-apologist fantasies.

Jasa
09-30-2006, 08:00 AM
He supposed to write a book too? He can't discount the entire book in a single essay. BTW, in that "bitching" did you note how he exposed Tottle as a liar-by-ommission?

Well actually he didn't expose anything.




Tottle smears American Academics, does he not? Oh how quint! --still continuing the "everybody who discusses the Ukrainian famine is a secret fascist" myth?

Strawman argument. The famine story originated and was advanced by fascists. It doesn't mean that everyone who believed it is a fascist.




LMFAO!! He owns Tottle and his asserstion that the photos somehow represent the whole of the evidence of the Soviet-Holocaust. Tottle is in fact engaged in revisionist cherry-picking.

Too bad Tottle never asserted that. The fact is that the famine lobby lied and Tottle caught them red-handed. OF COURSE IF YOU ACTUALLY READ THE BOOK YOU WOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT.






About the recently declassified documents? Or are you just tantamount ot the latter-day German that denies that there was really a Holocaust?

WHAT DOCUMENTS? What about the classified CIA documents that prove that the American government sent cute puppies to the moon to kill them!!?

See how that works yet?



I guess that must be your catch phrase when own3d with facts.

Well the problem is that you're not in a position to decide what are facts. Your lack of knowledge on Ukraine and Eastern European politics means that you are not able to judge what are unbiased and biased sources, as you already proved.



So keep talking about "owned" and assorted bullshit but so far you haven't rebutted anything and your obvious bias is showing.

Jasa
09-30-2006, 08:06 AM
LOL You've spent this entire flamewar "exposing" any Ukrainian nationalist in the unenviable position of deciding which evil was greater, as "fascist sympathisers."

Nope. The history of the OUN proves their fascist past. If you had the prerequisite knowledge on the subject you would have known that.



What was Tottle's scholarship? Writing for a award-winning Labor 'Journal?'

The scholarship is that of the sources and references he cites, where applicable. Again, before you start criticizing a book you should READ it so that when you read someone else's review you can determine how accurate their statements are.




Funny, but you seem to buy whatever the Soviet gov't was selling.

Wrong. The famine-genocide was being sold by the OUN and their accomplices. By the 1980s this massive event was supposedly proved by a few accounts by people with VERY questionable pasts, a novel, and a handful of pictures that were known to have been taken in 1921-22.





Oh, I see. There is no "proving" it is there, even though there is substantial evidence of it in Soviet archives, and everybody is a fascist or a liar except you and your little Stalin-apologist fantasies.

Let me try this analogy on you again. Observe:

"America KILLED 7 MILLION PEOPLE IN CALIFORNIA!!!! Where's the proof?! Documents in the CIA archives!!!! "


Now the proper response(after "WTF are you talking about"?), would be "WHICH documents say that?"

Nickdfresh
09-30-2006, 08:10 AM
Politics make strange bedfellows.




You call my source "shit" and cite Wikipedia as the source of that. Irony defined.


Genius, did you actually read the source? They said nothing negative about Tottle other than his book was "controversial," it was just a simple bio. My sources attacking Tottle are from Canadian and U.S. academics! Can't attack the message, so attack the messanger. That's clearly your M.O. all along!

Are they fascists too?


Resort to ad hominem when you can't refute his arugments, just like the author of the article you posted.

His arguments HAVE BEEN refuted, because he's a liar bent on using selective sources as he was shown to simply ignore what didn't fit his presupposed ideological paradigm. You have much in common!


Please be specific about which parts of his work are "ramblings". Oh wait that's right, YOU NEVER READ HIS BOOK, even though I told you its available online for free.

Why? Why should I read such nonsense that is so roundly dismissed? David Irving's work is also available as Stormfront I presume, should I waste my time reading such discredited agenda-BS?

And BTW, I don't have to disprove his ramblings, it's been done by people far smarter and more reliable than I.


HAD you actually READ THE BOOK, you wouldn't have posted that article.

Oh, I see. Everybody else is a liar, Tottle speaks gospel!



Right, because American conservatives aren't BIASED!!! Once again, had you read any of the sources I provided, you would know why your comment here is stupid.

BTW: You have a problem with someone juxtaposing Tottle's work with Harvard professors....but aren't American conservatives doing THE EXACT SAME THING?

LMAO! Now your just shitting out of your mouth and reaching.


See you're one of those people who thinks that by saying something it must be true.

You still haven't provided any evidence and your articles are careful to ignore Tottle's main arguments. For example, look at the line where it says most of Tottle's pictures are from Russia in 1922.

Is that your sole proof that the Ukrainian genocide didn't happen? The Photos are from, the wrong famine? :lol:

Somebody once posted a photo from WWI in a book on WWII! That must mean that WWII didn't happen!


NO SHIT!! THAT'S 1/4 OF TOTTLE'S BOOK! Those pictures were said to show the Ukrainian famine of 1932-33, but they are from Russia 1921-22.

Then you've admitted that at least 1/4 of his book is faulty logical bullshit! Thanks!:)

Nickdfresh
09-30-2006, 08:19 AM
Nope. The history of the OUN proves their fascist past. If you had the prerequisite knowledge on the subject you would have known that.

LOL OUN "collaborated" because of repression like the famine!!

By the way, you know more about Ukrainian history than I? I suppose the Germans know more about the history of the Holocaust too; maybe that gives them credibility to say --"it didn't happen, not like that!"

Nice argument!



The scholarship is that of the sources and references he cites, where applicable. Again, before you start criticizing a book you should READ it so that when you read someone else's review you can determine how accurate their statements are.

Yeah, I should read a book shown to be lies. I have too many good books to read. If I were an academic specializing, I would. But I have little time for that.


Wrong. The famine-genocide was being sold by the OUN and their accomplices. By the 1980s this massive event was supposedly proved by a few accounts by people with VERY questionable pasts, a novel, and a handful of pictures that were known to have been taken in 1921-22.

So academics at major Canadian and American Ivy League universities specializing in this don't take self-serving assholes into account when researching and writing? Their sources were emigres that may have left before WWII! And declassified Soviet archives! It's been confirmed!


Let me try this analogy on you again. Observe:

"America KILLED 7 MILLION PEOPLE IN CALIFORNIA!!!! Where's the proof?! Documents in the CIA archives!!!! "

OMG! :lol: Where are the witnesses? Where is the scholarship?

You're so Orweillian! How's the air in the "Ministry of Truth?"


Now the proper response(after "WTF are you talking about"?), would be "WHICH documents say that?"

Grasping at straws is pathetic at this point...

Jasa
09-30-2006, 08:23 AM
Genius, did you actually read the source? They said nothing negative about Tottle other than his book was "controversial," it was just a simple bio. My sources attacking Tottle are from Canadian and U.S. academics! Can't attack the message, so attack the messanger. That's clearly your M.O. all along!

Incredible, you accuse me of the very thing you are doing right here.



Are they fascists too?

No, they are repeating information and claims originally made by Fascists.




His arguments HAVE BEEN refuted, because he's a liar bent on using selective sources as he was shown to simply ignore what didn't fit his presupposed ideological paradigm. You have much in common!

Which claim was refuted? Once again you accuse him of doing the exact thing you have been doing throughout this whole thread. I pointed out some GLARING errors in the article and you ignore that.




Why? Why should I read such nonsense that is so roundly dismissed?

You don't have enough knowledge on the subject matter to determine what has been "so roundly dismissed". You just want it to remain "roundly dismissed" so you aren't going to check and see if the claims of your article are true.

Bias.



David Irving's work is also available as Stormfront I presume, should I waste my time reading such discredited agenda-BS?

Holocaust revisionists and Neo-Nazis CONSTANTLY tell followers NOT to read books on the Holocaust and consider only their revisionist stories.



And BTW, I don't have to disprove his ramblings, it's been done by people far smarter and more reliable than I.

No, you decided that they were disproved because you want them to be disproven. The problem is you don't have enough knowledge in the field, nor Eastern European politics to determine who is right.




Oh, I see. Everybody else is a liar, Tottle speaks gospel!

Logical Fallacies so far:

Comparing Holocaust revisionism with Tottle's work.

Strawman: I, nor Tottle ever said that anyone who advances this theory is necessarily a fascist or a liar.





LMAO! Now your just shitting out of your mouth and reaching.

Still don't see any refutations.




Is that your sole proof that the Ukrainian genocide didn't happen? The Photos are from, the wrong famine? :lol:

Well that, demographics, eyewitnesses, indirect evidence...etc.

THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON THE CLAIMANT.



Somebody once posted a photo from WWI in a book on WWII! That must mean that WWII didn't happen!

Not in the gifted class are we? Let's take your analogy and run with it. Let's pretend that ALL THE PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE from this "World War II" turned out to be from the first world war. Let's pretend that population demographics show an INCREASE in the population, not a decrease. Let's pretend we had plenty of eyewitnesses that refute it, and let's pretend that some of the few eyewitnesses that concocted the story never even WENT to the place where this "war" took place. Well THEN that casts some doubt.




Then you've admitted that at least 1/4 of his book is faulty logical bullshit! Thanks!:)

Are you actually LOSING IQ points with every post? Let's break this down into simple baby terms so you can understand it:

ARTICLE ADMITS THAT PHOTOS ARE FROM 1921-22

ARTICLE DOESN'T MENTION HOW FAMINE ADVOCATES HAVE BEEN USING THIS HANDFUL OF PHOTOS FOR YEARS AND PUBLICLY CLAIMING THEY WERE FROM 1932-33.

ARTICLE STATES OBVIOUS WITHOUT ADMITTING THAT ADVOCATES OF THE FAMINE-GENOCIDE LIED ABOUT WHAT THE PICTURES SHOW.

ARTICLE PRETENDS THAT TOTTLE'S ARGUMENT IS BASED SOLEY ON THE PICTURES ISSUE.

Jasa
09-30-2006, 08:34 AM
LOL OUN "collaborated" because of repression like the famine!!

Ignorance humiliates you again!! If it was the famine, WHY oh WHY did OUN also fight the Polish government and slaughter Poles? OUN's ideas were well known at that time and if the famine caused resistance WHY OH WHY did the OUN find so little support save for in their own area of Galicia.



By the way, you know more about Ukrainian history than I? I suppose the Germans know more about the history of the Holocaust too; maybe that gives them credibility to say --"it didn't happen, not like that!"

This statement of yours is so incredibly stupid it barely deserves response, but I'll indulge you.

SEE your statement above? See what's wrong with it? HAD YOU ANY KNOWLEDGE ON UKRAINIAN HISTORY, YOU WOULDN'T SAY SOMETHING SO IDIOTIC.

Because of your bias, you have scurried all over the internet looking for anything to prove the famine. You have not examined ANY of the sources refuting it. You probably didn't even KNOW what the UPA or OUN was before one of us mentioned it. There is absolutely no way you can stand a chance here.





Yeah, I should read a book shown to be lies. I have too many good books to read. If I were an academic specializing, I would. But I have little time for that.

You don't have the proper knowledge to determine what the lies are. What you have is an article that SAYS there are lies in the book. Yet I WHO HAVE ACTUALLY READ THE BOOK can tell you that the author of the article has DELIBERATELY LEFT OUT key facts, DISTORTED Tottle's argument, and basically refuted nothing.

YOU would know that to if you took the time to read it.




So academics at major Canadian and American Ivy League universities specializing in this don't take self-serving assholes into account when researching and writing?

Once again, you don't know what you are talking about. Your bias shows because you had already decided what happened so you find sources that confirm your predetermined view.




Their sources were emigres that may have left before WWII!

Wow!!! Their academic work was so great but now you say emigres who "MAY have left" before WWII? Gee, WHICH emigres, WHEN did they leave? Were you aware that OUN pre-dates WWII by many years?




And declassified Soviet archives! It's been confirmed!


Confirmed by whom? Which documents? Who wrote the documents? What do they say? Have you figured out the problem yet?




OMG! :lol: Where are the witnesses? Where is the scholarship?

Part of me thinks you actually might be stupid enough to have taken that ANALOGY LITERALLY. But I would ask your SAME QUESTIONS to those who believe in the "famine genocide". The idea here is you can't just say SOVIET ARCHIVES without someone calling you on it.



You're so Orweillian! How's the air in the "Ministry of Truth?"

Wow, 1984 reference, how original.




Grasping at straws is pathetic at this point...

Grasping at straws, from the guy that scrambles all over the internet looking for articles that will prove a point about a culture and people he obviously knows nothing about.

ANALOGY TIME: Would you go into a conference of medical professionals and start challenging their views on alternative medicine? After all, you could start searching the internet and show them wikipedia articles and other research by academics "proving" all sorts of nonsense.

Jasa
09-30-2006, 08:34 AM
I swear if I even suspect that you are taking another one of my ANALOGIES literally I will conspiculously label any further analogies as a further humiliation.

You don't even have the proper knowledge on Eastern European politics to determine what objective sources are. All you do is gather up anti-Communist or Ukrainian nationalist sites and then declare that these are objective and correct when in fact you don't have the proper education to make that determination.

My years of research and experience allow me to spot a nationalist bias a mile away when it comes to Eastern Europe, particularly Yugoslavia where the problem is most serious.

Nickdfresh
09-30-2006, 08:43 AM
Incredible, you accuse me of the very thing you are doing right here.

;) You accused me first!


No, they are repeating information and claims originally made by Fascists.

Let me paraphrase you: So (fascists) can never tell the truth?"

And fascists are far from the only source for this, and you know it!


Which claim was refuted? Once again you accuse him of doing the exact thing you have been doing throughout this whole thread. I pointed out some GLARING errors in the article and you ignore that.

LOL You've posted nothing of the kind! Repost them?

But first, address the declassified document comment you keep just denying...


You don't have enough knowledge on the subject matter to determine what has been "so roundly dismissed".

Neither do you apparently, since you believe every Soviet lie ever told. I'll get my Ukrainian histories from Ukrainians, not from Russians that miss the good old days of the USSR.


You just want it to remain "roundly dismissed" so you aren't going to check and see if the claims of your article are true.

Bias.


LOL You first!


Holocaust revisionists and Neo-Nazis CONSTANTLY tell followers NOT to read books on the Holocaust and consider only their revisionist stories.

That's my point! But I'm certain they also tell them to read the proven lies of David Irving.

BTW, how do you know so much about Holocaust-Revisionism, are you in the club that Tottle has been tied too?


No, you decided that they were disproved because you want them to be disproven. The problem is you don't have enough knowledge in the field, nor Eastern European politics to determine who is right.

And you've decided the Ukrainian famine was never exacerbated by official Soviet policies as a matter of political convenience, because you love the Cult-of-personality fascist!


Logical Fallacies so far:

Comparing Holocaust revisionism with Tottle's work.

Then go write the Professor at the University in Quebec I posted, he seems to agree.


Strawman: I, nor Tottle ever said that anyone who advances this theory is necessarily a fascist or a liar.

You just told me this:

Jasa
"Nope. The history of the OUN proves their fascist past. If you had the prerequisite knowledge on the subject you would have known that....Wrong. The famine-genocide was being sold by the OUN and their accomplices. By the 1980s this massive event was supposedly proved by a few accounts by people with VERY questionable pasts, a novel, and a handful of pictures that were known to have been taken in 1921-22."


Please keep your unsupportable assertions straight!


Still don't see any refutations.
See attachment...


Well that, demographics, eyewitnesses, indirect evidence...etc.

THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON THE CLAIMANT.

And ex-NKVD files as well as official state archives.:)


Not in the gifted class are we?

Actually, I was.:)


Let's take your analogy and run with it. Let's pretend that ALL THE PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE from this "World War II" turned out to be from the first world war. Let's pretend that population demographics show an INCREASE in the population, not a decrease. Let's pretend we had plenty of eyewitnesses that refute it, and let's pretend that some of the few eyewitnesses that concocted the story never even WENT to the place where this "war" took place. Well THEN that casts some doubt.

Or they "increased" in population because Stalin "planted" Russians in the Ukraine. Don't you know the history of the Ukraine?


Are you actually LOSING IQ points with every post? Let's break this down into simple baby terms so you can understand it:

ARTICLE ADMITS THAT PHOTOS ARE FROM 1921-22

ARTICLE DOESN'T MENTION HOW FAMINE ADVOCATES HAVE BEEN USING THIS HANDFUL OF PHOTOS FOR YEARS AND PUBLICLY CLAIMING THEY WERE FROM 1932-33.

ARTICLE STATES OBVIOUS WITHOUT ADMITTING THAT ADVOCATES OF THE FAMINE-GENOCIDE LIED ABOUT WHAT THE PICTURES SHOW.

ARTICLE PRETENDS THAT TOTTLE'S ARGUMENT IS BASED SOLEY ON THE PICTURES ISSUE.


Oh, now you're just losing your cool and shouting! :lol:

Here, I'll repost the article, since you apparently just skimmed it:

"First, let us consider the photographs of the famine. Tottle latches on to them as if they were the main proof of the historicity of the tragedy and the principle argument for its classification as genocide. Tottle does this because he thinks that the photographs form a weak link in the famine-genocide story: break this link and the whole structure will collapse. Well, this is not so. The famine has a solid documentary basis (documents published in the West and in the Soviet Union) of which the photographs form a very minor (and I might add, dispensable) component. There are few photographs from the 1932-33 famine and we could hardly expect otherwise, since the totalitarian regime wanted to keep the famine hidden and took the necessary measures to ensure this.

Many more photographs have come down to us from the earlier Soviet famine of 1921-23. Some of these pictures were eventually used in connection with the second famine and this fact provided Tottle with his basic argument against the famine-genocide: photographs depicting a natural famine of 1921-22 in Russia are used as proof of man-made starvation in Ukraine in 1932-33. To make his accusation stick, Tottle resorts to a mixture of irrelevant truths, half-truths and outright lies."

Jasa
09-30-2006, 08:59 AM
;) You accused me first!

Incredibly mature.




Let me paraphrase you: So (fascists) can never tell the truth?"

And fascists are far from the only source for this, and you know it!

Strawman. Fascist were the ORIGIN of the story.




LOL You've posted nothing of the kind! Repost them?

Clearly you didn't READ THEM, I pointed out at least one in one of my earlier posts.



But first, address the declassified document comment you keep just denying...

Neither do you apparently, since you believe every Soviet lie ever told. I'll get my Ukrainian histories from Ukrainians, not from Russians that miss the good old days of the USSR.


SURPRISE!!! I'M UKRAINAIN. I happen to be of Western Ukrainian descent as well. You get your information from Ukrainians, mostly Galician, who are nationalists. Because you don't know anything about Ukraine, you don't know that they are biased or why. You also clearly aren't aware that the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians to this day are pro-Russian. They are nowhere near as organized or well-backed as the Galician nationalists.




That's my point! But I'm certain they also tell them to read the proven lies of David Irving.

You never proved Tottle lied.



BTW, how do you know so much about Holocaust-Revisionism, are you in the club that Tottle has been tied too?

Logical fallacy again. Had you read any of the sources I provided you would see the difference between Holocaust denial and the famine-genocide.




And you've decided the Ukrainian famine was never exacerbated by official Soviet policies as a matter of political convenience, because you love the Cult-of-personality fascist!

This statement makes absolutely no sense. I have read the arugments on both sides, you haven't. You lose.




Then go write the Professor at the University in Quebec I posted, he seems to agree.

Once again, you haven't read the material he is criticizing so you can't determine if he has distorted the argument.



You just told me this:




Please keep your unsupportable assertions straight!

More ignorance. You don't know anything about the OUN apparently. I do.




And ex-NKVD files as well as official state archives.:)

Ex-CIA files as well as official state department documents prove the American massacre of Mexicans in Arizona of 2001. See how that works?




Or they "increased" in population because Stalin "planted" Russians in the Ukraine.

Idiocy. Sheer idiocy.




Don't you know the history of the Ukraine?

Do you make a habit of aruging over topics you know nothing about?





Oh, now you're just losing your cool and shouting! :lol:

No, you just have trouble reading so I have to break things down for you.



"First, let us consider the photographs of the famine. Tottle latches on to them as if they were the main proof of the historicity of the tragedy and the principle argument for its classification as genocide.

No, actually Tottle doesn't do that. Now HOW do I know that.....TIME'S UP!

I ACTUALLY READ HIS BOOK!




Tottle does this because he thinks that the photographs form a weak link in the famine-genocide story: break this link and the whole structure will collapse. Well, this is not so.

The weak link is the eyewitnesses and other facts refuting it, plus the lack of evidence on the part of the advocates.



The famine has a solid documentary basis (documents published in the West and in the Soviet Union) of which the photographs form a very minor (and I might add, dispensable) component.

That's what they claim years AFTER Tottle busted them on the photographs.



There are few photographs from the 1932-33 famine and we could hardly expect otherwise, since the totalitarian regime wanted to keep the famine hidden and took the necessary measures to ensure this.

Strange, the Third Reich was a totalitarian regime and yet we have PLENTY of photos related to that, including a photo showing the Sonderkommando burning bodies in a pit during the period when the executed exceeded the capacity of the crematoria.



Many more photographs have come down to us from the earlier Soviet famine of 1921-23. Some of these pictures were eventually used in connection with the second famine and this fact provided Tottle with his basic argument against the famine-genocide: photographs depicting a natural famine of 1921-22 in Russia are used as proof of man-made starvation in Ukraine in 1932-33.

Author ignores the extent to which these photos were used to prove the famine.




To make his accusation stick, Tottle resorts to a mixture of irrelevant truths, half-truths and outright lies."

SPECIFIC "half-truths", SPECIFIC "lies"?

Nickdfresh
09-30-2006, 09:01 AM
Ignorance humiliates you again!! If it was the famine, WHY oh WHY did OUN also fight the Polish government and slaughter Poles? OUN's ideas were well known at that time and if the famine caused resistance WHY OH WHY did the OUN find so little support save for in their own area of Galicia.

The same reason why the Soviet Union invaded Poland and "slaughtered Poles", and also signed a pact with Hitler, invaded Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia. Because it suited their ends at the time.



This statement of yours is so incredibly stupid it barely deserves response, but I'll indulge you.

SEE your statement above? See what's wrong with it? HAD YOU ANY KNOWLEDGE ON UKRAINIAN HISTORY, YOU WOULDN'T SAY SOMETHING SO IDIOTIC.

And if you didn't lie, you'd have credability. And if I wasn't correct, you wouldn't getting angry and abusive.:)


Because of your bias, you have scurried all over the internet looking for anything to prove the famine. You have not examined ANY of the sources refuting it. You probably didn't even KNOW what the UPA or OUN was before one of us mentioned it. There is absolutely no way you can stand a chance here.

You keep saying "my bias." My only "bias" is the truth. Unfortunately, it seems to be an inconvientent one that you cannot "handle."

Amd I an insidious fascist agent too now?



You don't have the proper knowledge to determine what the lies are. What you have is an article that SAYS there are lies in the book. Yet I WHO HAVE ACTUALLY READ THE BOOK can tell you that the author of the article has DELIBERATELY LEFT OUT key facts, DISTORTED Tottle's argument, and basically refuted nothing.

LOL You're proper knowledge seems to be based on lies and fraud.

You don't take losing arguments well, do you?


YOU would know that to if you took the time to read it.

Nope. I don't believe in conspiratorial histrical revisionism is worth my time.:)



Once again, you don't know what you are talking about. Your bias shows because you had already decided what happened so you find sources that confirm your predetermined view.

You keep saying that, yet I produce unbiased sources, and you produce the discredited.



Wow!!! Their academic work was so great but now you say emigres who "MAY have left" before WWII? Gee, WHICH emigres, WHEN did they leave? Were you aware that OUN pre-dates WWII by many years?

Why don't you tell me specifically which one of their sources was a "fascist agent of OUN?"

Or, why don't you show how declassified NKVD documents regarding the famine are false.



Confirmed by whom? Which documents? Who wrote the documents? What do they say? Have you figured out the problem yet?

By academics and scholars, of course silly!


Part of me thinks you actually might be stupid enough to have taken that ANALOGY LITERALLY. But I would ask your SAME QUESTIONS to those who believe in the "famine genocide". The idea here is you can't just say SOVIET ARCHIVES without someone calling you on it.

And part of me thinks that you adopt the methods of the enemies you hate so much.


Wow, 1984 reference, how original.

Yeah, you must get that a lot.;)



Grasping at straws, from the guy that scrambles all over the internet looking for articles that will prove a point about a culture and people he obviously knows nothing about.

You did it first! :lol:


ANALOGY TIME: Would you go into a conference of medical professionals and start challenging their views on alternative medicine? After all, you could start searching the internet and show them wikipedia articles and other research by academics "proving" all sorts of nonsense.

Isn't that "ANALOGY" exactly what you are doing by attacking academics that pose a view of the world you'd prefer covered up? Would you go to the Ukraine and challenge the Ukrainians' view of history as all just "fascist revisionism?" Stalin never did anything horrible? You couldn't find anything negative? LMFAO!!

You're a fraud.

A sycophant.

An enabler.

Go ahead, quote the Wilki article, its like two paragraphs, show where it is flawed. Did you ever have a problem with Wilki before this?

Jasa
09-30-2006, 09:02 AM
In your parade of errors I missed an important one.

Remember when you ignorantly claimed that the OUN resisted the Soviets because of the famine and I had to point out to you that the OUN also attacked the Polish and helped the Germans LONG BEFORE WWII? Well here's another error you made because of ignorance.

The OUN's base of support is from GALICIA. At the time of the famine Galicia was part of POLAND, not the Soviet Union. It was annexed by the Soviets in 1939. Stragely, the Ukrainians who actually LIVED in the Soviet Union while the famine was going on resisted the Nazis with the same fanaticism of other Soviet citizens.

Jasa
09-30-2006, 09:08 AM
The same reason why the Soviet Union invaded Poland and "slaughtered Poles", and also signed a pact with Hitler, invaded Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia. Because it suited their ends at the time.

Getting a little confused here aren't you?





And if you didn't lie, you'd have credability. And if I wasn't correct, you wouldn't getting angry and abusive.:)

Show me ONE lie I have made.




You keep saying "my bias." My only "bias" is the truth. Unfortunately, it seems to be an inconvientent one that you cannot "handle."

No, you have decided what the truth is without having any prior knowledge of the subject matter. That's why you make so many mistakes, which I actually point out.




Amd I an insidious fascist agent too now?

Strawman again.





LOL You're proper knowledge seems to be based on lies and fraud.

You don't have the required knowledge to know what lies and fraud are.



You don't take losing arguments well, do you?

If you think you are "winning" this argument you are seriously deluded. Let's recap:

You are arguing about Ukrainan history.

You have demonstrated several times that you know nothing about Ukrainian history, culture, or the ethnicity in general- as I have had to point out.




Nope. I don't believe in conspiratorial histrical revisionism is worth my time.:)

No, you just don't want to see your views challenged.





You keep saying that, yet I produce unbiased sources, and you produce the discredited.

Once again, you don't have the required knowledge on the subject to know what sources are unbiased and what is discreditted.





Why don't you tell me specifically which one of their sources was a "fascist agent of OUN?"

Tottle's book is full of them.



Or, why don't you show how declassified NKVD documents regarding the famine are false.

WHICH DOCUMENTS, WRITTEN BY WHOM, RELEASED WHEN, SAYING WHAT?





By academics and scholars, of course silly!

You don't have the required knowledge to determine which information is accurate.




And part of me thinks that you adopt the methods of the enemies you hate so much.

And me thinks you should argue on subjects you know nothing about.






Isn't that "ANALOGY" exactly what you are doing by attacking academics that pose a view of the world you'd prefer covered up? Would you go to the Ukraine and challenge the Ukrainians' view of history as all just "fascist revisionism?"

Many Ukrainians share my view.




Stalin never did anything horrible? You couldn't find anything negative? LMFAO!!

Strawman.



You're a fraud.

You're a layman.



A sycophant.

Ad hom



An enabler.

Ad hom



Go ahead, quote the Wilki article, its like two paragraphs, show where it is flawed. Did you ever have a problem with Wilki before this?

Anybody with a minimum intelligence knows that you should NEVER quote Wikipedia as a source when arguing historical or political issues. Period.

Jasa
09-30-2006, 09:10 AM
In the future you should read up on a subject BEFORE trying to argue about it. I repeated the famine-genocide for years but when someone actually challenged me on it I actually took the time to reevaluate the evidence presented and then examine the counter-arugment.

If you continue, instead of pointing out each error you make about basic Ukrainian history and even GEOGRAPHY so that a running tally could be made at the end so that any observer will see your obvious lack of knowledge in that subject.

Nickdfresh
09-30-2006, 09:23 AM
Incredibly mature.

Like posting all in CAPS when we're angry? Or resorting to "you're an idiot?"

Yeah, okay.


Strawman. Fascist were the ORIGIN of the story.

So was Stalin and most of the CP at the time.


Clearly you didn't READ THEM, I pointed out at least one in one of my earlier posts.

Oh, you pointed it out. No, you've yet to explain it actually.


SURPRISE!!! I'M UKRAINAIN. I happen to be of Western Ukrainian descent as well. You get your information from Ukrainians, mostly Galician, who are nationalists. Because you don't know anything about Ukraine, you don't know that they are biased or why. You also clearly aren't aware that the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians to this day are pro-Russian. They are nowhere near as organized or well-backed as the Galician nationalists.

Or Russian? Funny, this is the first you've mentioned it. And the "majority of Ukrainians" are "pro-Russian." Oh, that's funny! Then why don't they just merge with Russia then? Why do Ukrainians resent the meddling of the Russian gov't in their elections. Why was there almost a major incident over who controls the Black-Sea Fleet?

Yeah, I know it was Soviet policy to basically quash any Ukrainian identity.

Freedom is slavery...


You never proved Tottle lied.

I know, the authors I've posted did.


Logical fallacy again. Had you read any of the sources I provided you would see the difference between Holocaust denial and the famine-genocide.

Now you're just copping my posts. Nice!


This statement makes absolutely no sense. I have read the arugments on both sides, you haven't. You lose.

So have neo-Nazis reading David Irving...




You just told me this:




More ignorance. You don't know anything about the OUN apparently. I do.

Actually, I've read some. I just don't trust a Stalin-sycophant's opinion on his opposition.


Ex-CIA files as well as official state department documents prove the American massacre of Mexicans in Arizona of 2001. See how that works?

Interesting. Do you have any evidence for this? Because I've posted much work of scholars. You can continue to look foolish acting as though this is all made up.

And it wouldn't be the CIA, it would more likely be the FBI.

It's pretty funny how you keep comparing the USSR circa-1930 with the United States, a country that is not totalitarian despite the best efforts of some, and still has a free press.

I suppose journalists were "free" in the USSR.;)


Idiocy. Sheer idiocy. ]




Do you make a habit of aruging over topics you know nothing about?

Do you make it a habit of covering up historical events you dislike being mentioned?


No, you just have trouble reading so I have to break things down for you.



No, actually Tottle doesn't do that. Now HOW do I know that.....TIME'S UP!

I ACTUALLY READ HIS BOOK!


Super! And you did so because it confirmed and repeated to you what you already wanted to hear. Is that supposed to pass for some sort of credibility?


The weak link is the eyewitnesses and other facts refuting it, plus the lack of evidence on the part of the advocates.

Funny, but many people at "Harvard," Columbia, and Quebec U. seem to disagree.


That's what they claim years AFTER Tottle busted them on the photographs.



Strange, the Third Reich was a totalitarian regime and yet we have PLENTY of photos related to that, including a photo showing the Sonderkommando burning bodies in a pit during the period when the executed exceeded the capacity of the crematoria.

They were also conquered by powers with interests in exposing them. The USSR was never conquered, and it's files were never captured and completely declassified enmass, thought they tried mightily to repress information and cover things up. Again, it's a "faulty logical" comparison.




Author ignores the extent to which these photos were used to prove the famine.


No. No he doesn't. What he says is that this is essentially irrelevant with the whole of the evidence! A point that escapes you I guess. And he also states that there WERE photos from the 1932 famine.




SPECIFIC "half-truths", SPECIFIC "lies"?

They've been posted in the article.


Re-read what I've reposted. Apparently, you have the ability to blockout what you don't like.

Nickdfresh
09-30-2006, 09:30 AM
In the future you should read up on a subject BEFORE trying to argue about it. I repeated the famine-genocide for years but when someone actually challenged me on it I actually took the time to reevaluate the evidence presented and then examine the counter-arugment.

You've done nothing but cite questionable and biased scholarship from people that were potentially communists, while decrying all counter-arguments as somehow fascist based. Yeah, that's some knowledge, the one completely contrived as a cover-up.


If you continue, instead of pointing out each error you make about basic Ukrainian history and even GEOGRAPHY so that a running tally could be made at the end so that any observer will see your obvious lack of knowledge in that subject.

Again, any German can make the same arguments re. prior "knowledge" and pass that off as a defense of Holocaust denial too.

When I point this out, you apparently melt down in posts of rage, since it is a problem you cannot deal with.

Nickdfresh
09-30-2006, 09:45 AM
Getting a little confused here aren't you?





Show me ONE lie I have made.




No, you have decided what the truth is without having any prior knowledge of the subject matter. That's why you make so many mistakes, which I actually point out.


But I do have prior knowledge of the subject matter. I do not know every specific, but I know enough. If people are ignorant of every particular of the Holocaust, does that mean it didn't happen?


Strawman again.





You don't have the required knowledge to know what lies and fraud are.



If you think you are "winning" this argument you are seriously deluded. Let's recap:

You are arguing about Ukrainan history.

Yes, and you're arguing about Soviet history, and acting as if they're exactly same.


You have demonstrated several times that you know nothing about Ukrainian history, culture, or the ethnicity in general- as I have had to point out.

And you've shown yourself to be an apologist liar with ulterior motives for cover-up. Your arguments completely contravene anything I've read by actual Ukrainians, of sorry, I forgot you are one.;)


No, you just don't want to see your views challenged.

My only view is that a famine took place in the Ukraine, and it was exacerbated by Soviet authorities. You're the one that doesn't want your views challenged.



Once again, you don't have the required knowledge on the subject to know what sources are unbiased and what is discreditted.

The sources Jasa likes=GREAT! GOSPEL ACCORDING TO TOTTLE! Sources Jasa doesn't like=FASCISTS!

:lol:

BTW, if you are so "knowledgeable" regarding the 1932 famine as a "Ukrainian," why do you need the rantings of a Canadian author to defend your knowledge and beliefs?




Tottle's book is full of them.

Turds?


WHICH DOCUMENTS, WRITTEN BY WHOM, RELEASED WHEN, SAYING WHAT?

The ones the academics study. I see if I can find them on the Internet later. BTW, what do you have other than the Canadian labor activists work as your thesis that it didn't happen. or it's all a fascist plot to discredit the 'great' Joe Stalin?


You don't have the required knowledge to determine which information is accurate.

And me thinks you should argue on subjects you know nothing about.

Arguments debunked.



Many Ukrainians share my view.

Most don't



Strawman.

Can you document that?


You're a layman.

I'd rather be a "layman" than a fraud.




Ad hom



Ad hom

Whatever. :rolleyes:


Anybody with a minimum intelligence knows that you should NEVER quote Wikipedia as a source when arguing historical or political issues. Period.


Really? Why? Because biased people can alter the facts and make shit up? LMFAO!!!!!!! :lol:

You and Tottle should contribute!

Nickdfresh
09-30-2006, 10:38 AM
Jasa, you're not going to change my mind, and I am not going to change yours. So this argument is futile, frustrating on both ends, and getting more puerile as a result (admittedly from my end as well). You have your passionate beliefs, and I have mine.

You can continue arguing in this thread and respond to my admittedly smug words if you want, but this thread has veered so far off-course (from the original in which the Nazis German Einsatzgruppen were criminal killers that murdered ALL people they regarded as enemies in the Soviet Union, be they Jewish or not, including Communist officials, civic leaders, resistance fighters, etc.).

So arguing this here is pretty silly really. I'm checking out of this thread because we're just repeating ourselves with the same arguments and sources and wasting bandwidth...

You can have the last words if you want.

Gen. Sandworm
09-30-2006, 11:48 AM
Jasa, you're not going to change my mind, and I am not going to change yours. So this argument is futile, frustrating on both ends, and getting more puerile as a result (admittedly from my end as well). You have your passionate beliefs, and I have mine.

You can continue arguing in this thread and respond to my admittedly smug words if you want, but this thread has veered so far off-course (from the original in which the Nazis German Einsatzgruppen were criminal killers that murdered ALL people they regarded as enemies in the Soviet Union, be they Jewish or not, including Communist officials, civic leaders, resistance fighters, etc.).

So arguing this here is pretty silly really. I'm checking out of this thread because we're just repeating ourselves with the same arguments and sources and wasting bandwidth...

You can have the last words if you want.

No offense to anyone but this is the best post in a couple of pages. I was hoping that eventually one of you would just agree to disagree.

Sneaksie
09-30-2006, 02:06 PM
Nickdfresh, I have an impression that you have a thick insulation layer around your brain. Anything that contradicts with your opinion is just being ignored and that's all.
The most strange thing, almost unbelievable, in all this that OUN got such faithful and blind defender who is partly jew.

Nickdfresh
09-30-2006, 03:11 PM
Nickdfresh, I have an impression that you have a thick insulation layer around your brain. Anything that contradicts with your opinion is just being ignored and that's all.
The most strange thing, almost unbelievable, in all this that OUN got such faithful and blind defender who is partly jew.


Actually, for the fourth ****ing time. I'm not Jewish, certainly not by birth. I may have some distant ancestry that I am unaware of. But couldn't you?

BTW, I've read some fascist racist sites, regarding this topic; and they seem to claim that many Bolsheviks were Jews, with many of the NKVD secret police ranks being filled with them.

Prejudiced birds of a feather flock together I suppose, and the poor Jews get it from both ends! I may actually stop my anti-Israeli rants after this!

Who has the insulated skull again?

If you want, we can continue this discussion in a thread regarding the Ukrainian Famines of 1921-22 and 1932-33. Or perhaps we can objectively look at Stalinism in another thread?

Chevan
09-30-2006, 04:30 PM
Actually, for the fourth ****ing time. I'm not Jewish, certainly not by birth. I may have some distant ancestry that I am unaware of. But couldn't you?

now do you see , nobody believe to you about your "not-jewis origin".
By the way , i never told that you are the jew by birth.


BTW, I've read some fascist racist sites, regarding this topic; and they seem to claim that many Bolsheviks were Jews, with many of the NKVD secret police ranks being filled with them.

Don't need to read fascist sites to learn that from in 1918-1926 yy the Central Commitete Bolshevik's Party was from 80 to 90 %jewish. This is not the mystery for everybody who are interesting of this theme. Also NKVD has a lot of jewish members till Great Purge ( and after )


... I may actually stop my anti-Israeli rants after this!

Is this threat ...;) ;)
Please Nick , be the human , don't stop the anti-Israeli rants :) :)

Nickdfresh
09-30-2006, 05:04 PM
now do you see , nobody believe to you about your "not-jewis origin".
By the way , i never told that you are the jew by birth.

Oh how fascinating! "I'm not Jewish by origin" yet I'm a Jew? Is this some sort of apologist backpedaling for your putrid anti-Semitic statements? BTW, Russians like you were the first to collaborate with the Nazis....


Don't need to read fascist sites to learn that from in 1918-1926 yy the Central Commitete Bolshevik's Party was from 80 to 90 %jewish. This is not the mystery for everybody who are interesting of this theme. Also NKVD has a lot of jewish members till Great Purge ( and after )

Well, this may be true. But aren't you sort of defending their policies, then insinuating I'm "a Jew" for attacking the Holocaust?


Is this threat ...

No, it's not a threat. I have a new genuine empathy for the Jews that suffer persecution at the hands of stupid people. Maybe they have a point.


Please Nick , be the human , don't stop the anti-Israeli rants :) :)

Well, my rants were not really anti-Israeli as much as anti-Zionist. Why don't you make some "anti-Israeli" comments about how they are how they are "hook-nosed bastards that control the media and banking?":)

Why do you need me in your corner?

Sneaksie
09-30-2006, 05:39 PM
Actually, for the fourth ****ing time. I'm not Jewish, certainly not by birth. I may have some distant ancestry that I am unaware of. But couldn't you?
Sorry i've misunderstood you then.

Firefly
09-30-2006, 06:35 PM
Nickdfresh, I have an impression that you have a thick insulation layer around your brain. Anything that contradicts with your opinion is just being ignored and that's all.
The most strange thing, almost unbelievable, in all this that OUN got such faithful and blind defender who is partly jew.

And with that statement I have to advise you that you are perilously close to annoying me.

It seems that my previous guidance may have fallen on deaf ears.

Guys if we cant debate without resorting to petty name calling there is no point in having this forum.

This is not just adressed to Sneaksie, its just that this post particularly caught my attention, both sides of this argument need to re-assess I think.

Gen. Sandworm
09-30-2006, 06:59 PM
And with that statement I have to advise you that you are perilously close to annoying me.

It seems that my previous guidance may have fallen on deaf ears.

Guys if we cant debate without resorting to petty name calling there is no point in having this forum.

This is not just adressed to Sneaksie, its just that this post particularly caught my attention, both sides of this argument need to re-assess I think.

I thought we had come to an end myself but no................seriously the debating is okay the insults are stopping. We have been overly nice. Next person to insult another will get an infraction point. We cant be anymore clear than we already have been.

YOU ALL ARE ON THIN ICE.

Nickdfresh
09-30-2006, 08:47 PM
Sorry i've misunderstood you then.

Apology accepted. No problems friend.

Jasa
10-01-2006, 12:11 AM
What is truly insulting here is that someone who has most likely never even set foot in Eastern Europe, someone who is not Ukrainian and is CLEARLY not knowledgeable about Ukrainian history, politics, or even GEOGRAPHY, is allowed to lecture Russians and Ukrainians on their own history- arrogantly claiming that this or that source is "objective" simply because it fits his own agenda.

Nick, you didn't know what OUN or UPA was until I told you, you didn't know about the Galicia region until I told you, you didn't know those people were living under Polish rule at the time of the famine until I told you. No longer will I point out your errors or specific ignorance like this so as to deny you the opportunity to proclaim after the fact that you knew.

Google search and Wikipedia aren't going to counter my years of research on Ukrainian issues, including this one which I have examined from BOTH sides. I know Ukrainians personally, I have had to deal with Galician nationalists personally(unfortunately), and I know a nationalist when I see one. There is a REASON why many of the people responsible for your sources DON'T LIVE IN UKRAINE.

What you have been doing here is pissing on the memory of over 5 million Ukrainians who fought tenaciously against the brutal Nazi invaders, and defiling the graves of many more who were slaughtered not only by the Axis invaders but their helpers in the OUN- the same type of people who pulled the triggers at Babi Yar and ran the engines at Treblinka. These same thugs tried to re-invent the history of their organization in the 80s and Cold War fanatics such as yourself have made that largely successful. However, those of us who know have seen the "paper trail" of publications they have put out over several decades clearly showing the character of their organization.


You have tried to call me a liar, you have not been able to substantiate that claim.

You have deliberately distorted my claims just as your article distorts the claims of Tottle.

You have not answered the questions I posed to you nor did you acknowledge the numerous simple factual errors you have made in your claims.

You continue to spout the logical fallacy of juxtaposing Holocaust denial with Famine revisionism while ignoring the very obvious differences between the claims.


In other words....you lose. Next time argue ONLY those topics about which you have some prior knowledge.

BONUS!!
Due to your ignorance on the subject matter, ONE of the arguments you made ACTUALLY supports my side of the debate if your claim were true. Can YOU guess which one? I'm going to wait a while to tell you just to let you sweat. Hopefully in the mean time you will reflect on your ignorance relating to this topic and apologize for insulting Ukraine.

Jasa
10-01-2006, 12:14 AM
No offense to anyone but this is the best post in a couple of pages. I was hoping that eventually one of you would just agree to disagree.

Well its value is deppreciated somewhat but the 4 or 5 posts before it that don't address the issues and distort my argument with strawman claims...but that's fine because I added my final words on this topic when I came into work this morning.

Nickdfresh
10-01-2006, 05:31 AM
What is truly insulting here is that someone who has most likely never even set foot in Eastern Europe, someone who is not Ukrainian and is CLEARLY not knowledgeable about Ukrainian history, politics, or even GEOGRAPHY, is allowed to lecture Russians and Ukrainians on their own history- arrogantly claiming that this or that source is "objective" simply because it fits his own agenda.

That was never the point. I've never set foot in Eastern Europe, but does that mean the Holocaust never happened?

You never set foot in North America, I presume? Does that mean that Slavery or the Indian massacres ever happened?

And I'm not lecturing anybody. I'm simply stating facts, you're the one going on about this.


Nick, you didn't know what OUN or UPA was until I told you, you didn't know about the Galicia region until I told you, you didn't know those people were living under Polish rule at the time of the famine until I told you. No longer will I point out your errors or specific ignorance like this so as to deny you the opportunity to proclaim after the fact that you knew.

Um, I've never commented on OUN or Galicia, as it was all irrelevant, like most of your arguments in this whole affair. BTW, I don't recall you saying much about the Galicians at all. In fact, what do the Spanish have to do with this?:)

Why don't you comment on the actual Communist Party of the Soviet Union policies at the time? You can't find any human rights abuses? I find this notion rather amusing blindman...


Google search and Wikipedia aren't going to counter my years of research on Ukrainian issues, including this one which I have examined from BOTH sides. I know Ukrainians personally, I have had to deal with Galician nationalists personally(unfortunately), and I know a nationalist when I see one. There is a REASON why many of the people responsible for your sources DON'T LIVE IN UKRAINE.

What? I can't use Google? You know "nationalists" when you see one? That sounds rather funny, because you seem rather mindlessly nationalist to me!

Are you not the one complaining here about being "lectured?"

BTW, this is where you typically lie. I use Google, like you do, unless you have a ready made Ukrainian famine plethera of sources on your computer? And this is the third time you've accused me of getting my resources from Wilki! Well, here's the only Wilki resource I used for researching:


The evil liars at Wilkipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Tottle).
Douglas Tottle is a trade union activist and the author of the controversial book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversial) Fraud, Famine, and Fascism the Myth of the Ukrainian Genocide from Hitler to Harvard.

The official biography from that book is as follows: "Tottle has worked as a photographer and a photo-lab technician, fine artist, underground miner, and as a steelworker. An active trade unionist, Tottle edited the United Steelworkers journal "The Challenger" from 1975 to 1985, during the time the paper received over 20 international and Canadian journalism awards. Tottle has also worked as a labor history researcher, and as an organizer. During the 1970s he assisted the organizing drive of Chicano farmworkers in California and worked with Native Indian farmworkers in Manitoba. Tottle has written for various Canadian and U.S. periodicals, magazines, and labor journals."


So instead of repeating your "half-truths" and "distortions," why don't you tell me what is incorrect in this Wilki article? I anxiously await your response on this, since you keep harping on it, as if it represents some brilliant point you've made that negates anything I've said. I've never proclaimed Wilki to be an invaluable source; what it is is a useful online "starter" taken with a healthy dose of skepticism.

And this article shows what a droning blathering fool you are. They actually give Tottle the thumbs up and uncritically repeat his lies: http://www.rationalrevolution.net/special/library/famine.htm/

So you are right, Wilki is indeed a fraudulent, unskeptical source that accepts everything at face value, I do not. All information is to be discounted!


What you have been doing here is pissing on the memory of over 5 million Ukrainians who fought tenaciously against the brutal Nazi invaders, and defiling the graves of many more who were slaughtered not only by the Axis invaders but their helpers in the OUN- the same type of people who pulled the triggers at Babi Yar and ran the engines at Treblinka. These same thugs tried to re-invent the history of their organization in the 80s and Cold War fanatics such as yourself have made that largely successful. However, those of us who know have seen the "paper trail" of publications they have put out over several decades clearly showing the character of their organization.

The Einsatzgruppen "pulled the trigger" at Babi Yar. I've never made ONE pro-OUN statement, have I? And apologists that have "re-invented" the Communist Party are equally vile.



You have tried to call me a liar, you have not been able to substantiate that claim.

Oh, I have deconstructed your ludicrous statements. Actually, I've showed you to be a bombastic liar regarding the Wilki issue.

You keep repeating ignorance that I some how gathered this all on Wilki while never proving anything!


You have deliberately distorted my claims just as your article distorts the claims of Tottle.

Which claim specifically? Name one? I've skewed your logic, but I've never needed to distort your arguments. You're the one engaged in the repeating of a lie so that it becomes truth.


You have not answered the questions I posed to you nor did you acknowledge the numerous simple factual errors you have made in your claims.

LOL Neither have you! The documentary evidence is a dated book written by a Canadian labor activist editor with questionable scholarship that has proven to have distorted information regarding the famine in order to arrive to his pre-ordained conclusion. He almost openly admits this!

Tottle's OWN WORDS relate that he had very little interest in the famine itself, and sought only to indict any Ukrainians that dared to implicate the Soviet Communist party.


You continue to spout the logical fallacy of juxtaposing Holocaust denial with Famine revisionism while ignoring the very obvious differences between the claims.

And you never really show how I "juxtapose" the "logical fallacy," because you can't!


It's an open wound on your arguments.


In other words....you lose. Next time argue ONLY those topics about which you have some prior knowledge.


BONUS!![/SIZE]

You keep making retarded statements about "times up, you lose" and "swing, miss" blah blah blah blah.... Is this some false bravado front you put up when owned?


(annoying font off :rolleyes: )Due to your ignorance on the subject matter, ONE of the arguments you made ACTUALLY supports my side of the debate if your claim were true. Can YOU guess which one? I'm going to wait a while to tell you just to let you sweat. Hopefully in the mean time you will reflect on your ignorance relating to this topic and apologize for insulting Ukraine. [/COLOR][/SIZE]

No, I can't guess which one. But I'm sure you'll tell me.:) Thank you for the bellicose grandstanding though!

BTW, when do you reflect on your ignorance of the Ukraine, and the fact that the only source you can provide for your arguments is still a Canadian author and labor activist, who was roundly criticized after receiving two accolades, and based his arguments on scurrilous repeaters in the Village Voice (a shit, alternative and newspaper that on can pick up for free in NYC --I think it's free anyways). In fact, in the years since 1988 when the book was written, the arguments have only grown against this revisionism and his book, including only furtherance of declassified materials relating to the the period.

**addendum**

And I'm the "cold warrior" here? LOL! Look at your Red Banner avatar, and your mindless, bristling defensiveness at any unflattering portrays of Stalin's reign, and your earlier critique of Capitalism.

You're the one stuck in the Cold War, not me!

And BTW, maybe you can tell me how criticizing the Communist gov'ts handling of the famine is insulting to the Ukraine.

Jasa
10-01-2006, 06:02 AM
That was never the point. I've never set foot in Eastern Europe, but does that mean the Holocaust never happened?

Strawman. I never said the fact that you never set foot here is the main problem. The problem is you don't know the subject matter.

Other logical fallacy: Comparing this to Holocaust revisionism.



You never set foot in North America, I presume? Does that mean that Slavery or the Indian massacres ever happened?

Wrong, I was born in America.



And I'm not lecturing anybody. I'm simply stating facts, you're the one going on about this.

No, you are stating errors.




Um, I've never commented on OUN or Galicia, as it was all irrelevant, like most of your arguments in this whole affair. BTW, I don't recall you saying much about the Galicians at all. In fact, what do the Spanish have to do with this?:)

Actually it is very relevent. If you knew what you are talking about you would already know why.



Why don't you comment on the actual Communist Party of the Soviet Union policies at the time? You can't find any human rights abuses? I find this notion rather amusing blindman...

Strawman, I never said their weren't human rights abuses in the Soviet Union.




What? I can't use Google? You know "nationalists" when you see one? That sounds rather funny, because you seem rather mindlessly nationalist to me!

That went over your head I see.



Are you not the one complaining here about being "lectured?"

Lectured by someone who doesn't know the subject matter, yes.



BTW, this is where you typically lie.

Where is the lie?



I use Google, like you do, unless you have a ready made Ukrainian famine plethera of sources on your computer?

No, I don't get my facts from Google. I spend years and hundreds of dollars on books as well as many hours researching issues like this. Most of the research was done on the pro-famine side of the argument.



And this is the third time you've accused me of getting my resources from Wilki! Well, here's the only Wilki resource I used for researching:

I cited Wiki as an example.




So instead of repeating your "half-truths" and "distortions," why don't you tell me what is incorrect in this Wilki article?

I already told you what was incorrect. Your source lies about Tottle's argument and the facts he cites. I know this because I have read Tottle's book and ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT IS CONTAINED therein.



I anxiously await your response on this, since you keep harping on it, as if it represents some brilliant point you've made that negates anything I've said. I've never proclaimed Wilki to be an invaluable source; what it is is a useful online "starter" taken with a healthy dose of skepticism.

Strawman, I never said you proclaimed Wiki to be invaluable. The problem is that you seem to think you can match years of research by searching on the internet.



And this article shows what a droning blathering fool you are. They actually give Tottle the thumbs up and uncritically repeat his lies: http://www.rationalrevolution.net/special/library/famine.htm/

Again, you have not read Tottle's book, you are not familiar with the subject matter, ergo you are unqualified to determine what are "lies" and what is "blathering" in this subject.



So you are right, Wilki is indeed a fraudulent, unskeptical source that accepts everything at face value, I do not. All information is to be discounted!

You take at face value what supports your pre-conceived notions.




The Einsatzgruppen "pulled the trigger" at Babi Yar. I've never made ONE pro-OUN statement, have I? And apologists that have "re-invented" the Communist Party are equally vile.

Guess who frequently volunteered for duty with the Einsatzgruppen?





Oh, I have deconstructed your ludicrous statements. Actually, I've showed you to be a bombastic liar regarding the Wilki issue.

No, in your delusional mind that twists my statements that may have happened, but certainly not here.



You keep repeating ignorance that I some how gathered this all on Wilki while never proving anything!

Never said that- Strawman.




Which claim specifically? Name one? I've skewed your logic, but I've never needed to distort your arguments. You're the one engaged in the repeating of a lie so that it becomes truth.

Read this thread and you will see EACH strawman argument I pointed out.




LOL Neither have you! The documentary evidence is a dated book written by a Canadian labor activist editor with questionable scholarship that has proven to have distorted information regarding the famine in order to arrive to his pre-ordained conclusion. He almost openly admits this!

Wrong. That is what the article you posted CLAIMS. I have read the book so I know these claims are incorrect. You have not, ergo you are not in a position to make that decision.



Tottle's OWN WORDS relate that he had very little interest in the famine itself, and sought only to indict any Ukrainians that dared to implicate the Soviet Communist party.

Please cite the page number or quote from Tottle when he said that.




And you never really show how I "juxtapose" the "logical fallacy," because you can't!

Would you like me to?



It's an open wound on your arguments.

I would love to see you do this same thing in a Physics forum. Start arguing with qualified people about subjects you know nothing about.




You keep making retarded statements about "times up, you lose" and "swing, miss" blah blah blah blah.... Is this some false bravado front you put up when owned?

Go to a physics forum and "own" those eggheads!




No, I can't guess which one. But I'm sure you'll tell me.:) Thank you for the bellicose grandstanding though!

Of course you can't because you don't know the claims on EITHER side apparently.



BTW, when do you reflect on your ignorance of the Ukraine, and the fact that the only source you can provide for your arguments is still a Canadian author and labor activist, who was roundly criticized after receiving two accolades, and based his arguments on scurrilous repeaters in the Village Voice (a shit, alternative and newspaper that on can pick up for free in NYC --I think it's free anyways).

I provided more sources, you neglected to read them.



In fact, in the years since 1988 when the book was written, the arguments have only grown against this revisionism and his book, including only furtherance of declassified materials relating to the the period.

WHICH declassified materials?

Gen. Sandworm
10-01-2006, 07:21 AM
I would love to see you do this same thing in a Physics forum. Start arguing with qualified people about subjects you know nothing about.


Go to a physics forum and "own" those eggheads!


Not taking sides here. But.......

Would just like to say we can make that possible! I happen to be a geo-physicist.

You call physicists eggheads again and we are going to have problems. ;)

Jasa
10-01-2006, 07:48 AM
Not taking sides here. But.......

Would just like to say we can make that possible! I happen to be a geo-physicist.

You call physicists eggheads again and we are going to have problems. ;)

No offense taken, this demonstrates that in that particular field you have the background knowledge necessary to determine credible or objective sources- for a hypothetical example.

What can I say when someone tells me that Galicia or OUN are "irrelevent" to politics and history of Ukraine and the famine? This is tantamount to saying that the Communist party is "irrelevent", or that the "Nazi party" is irrelevent to the Holocaust.

Recognizing the history and internal politics of Ukraine, particularly the Galicia/East Ukraine split is crucial to judging the objectivity or agendas of certain materials. Western Ukrainians have been highly organized for decades and claim to speak for the majority of Ukrainians, but when pushed they lash out against anyone who does not support their bizarre dreams and claim that the majority of Ukrainians were "corrupted".


Believe me, the nature of the 32-33 famine is not by FAR the biggest fairy-tale some of these people come up with. I am able to read Ukrainian nationalist sites and they make claims that are far more ludicrous. I remember one site many years ago where they edited some old map of medieval Europe, one that was made before Moscow was founded. They overtly ALTERED the map to rename "Rus" "Ukraina-Rus"(for one that knows Russian history this is hilarious) and then they point out how the land where Moscow would later be is labelled "Tatarie", "proving" that Muscovites are actually Mongols(many of these people express bizarre racial theories).

By that same logic, I am an Apache Indian because I was born in Arizona and there are plenty of maps that show Arizona to be Native American land and later Mexican land.

Jasa
10-01-2006, 07:55 AM
On my background, I am of the same Galician-Ukrainian descent of these OUN/UNA-UNSO nutcases. I could be called a "nationalist" ONLY in the sense that I recognize Ukraine's integral role in Russian history, in fact it was once the center of Russian power. Had the Mongols not sacked Kiev, Moscow and what is called "Rossiya" could have been "Ukraina". The largest problem in Russia is the fact that "Russian" is still associated exclusively to Muscovites when in fact it should apply to Belarussians and Ukrainians as far as the old Carpathian border. The country of "Rossiya" all the way to Vladivostok, was built not only by Muscovites but thousands if not millions of Ukrainians and Belarussians as well. Why should our people be denied what our ancestors fought for just for some new flag, false history, a pat on the head from Western businessmen, and self-serving egotistical leaders that want to shrink the pond to become bigger fish?

Sneaksie
10-01-2006, 07:57 AM
Would just like to say we can make that possible! I happen to be a geo-physicist.

Oftopic
Whoa, i've specialised in seismology. Mine graduation work was Earth's crust structure in Karelia region based on data from new small-aperture seismograph group. It's a shame i didn't work as physicist since university though.

Nickdfresh
10-01-2006, 08:07 AM
**This is my final (three-part) retort to this stuff. Apparently Jasa just wants to engag in name calling and argument rather than discussion, and his inflammatory post containing little more than viceral anger has forced me to post yet again, and waste my Sunday morning on subjects that really should be above this discussion. But I feel this final post is necesaary for the silenced victims in the Ukrainian soils that cannot indict the "ministry of truth."**


Strawman. I never said the fact that you never set foot here is the main problem. The problem is you don't know the subject matter.

Other logical fallacy: Comparing this to Holocaust revisionism.

But an apparently communist, pro-Soviet writer from Canada, that has no apparent formal education or historical training, that only ever wrote one book, did?


Wrong, I was born in America.

Interesting. Didn't you say that you were Ukrainian? I believe one of your cohorts said that you have relatives in the Ukraine? Do you have duel citizenship?


No, you are stating errors.

Tell me how?


Actually it is very relevent. If you knew what you are talking about you would already know why.

No it isn't. Your central argument is that all sources for this famine being tantamount to genocide are essentially nationalist, pro-Nazi propaganda repeated by Ukrainian nationalists. This argument is clearly discredited in the source I provided. It's simply irrelevant, even if there is some truth in it. Yes Ukrainian fascists may well have used this famine as propaganda, just like the Nazis used Katyn as anti-Soviet propaganda.

Did that make the slaughter of upwards of 40,000 Poles by the NKVD a hoax too? Or did the Germans really do it Sycophant?


Strawman, I never said their weren't human rights abuses in the Soviet Union.

Sycophant, my name is not "Strawman."

What you did say was that you started out as an "anti-Stalin crusader." And that you gradually came to believe that he was essentially a good leader because you "couldn't find" evidence of his atrocities. Or at least they weren't his fault? Did you not?

It's a notion so patently absurd and intellectually offensive, that many would call you a preposterous liar, concealing his predisposed ideological agenda.

Are we playing fast and loose with the cute semantics now?

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=88483&postcount=30

[color=blue]Chevan I personally knew a Holocaust-revisionist author and read a lot of their material. Many of them can make a good case, but I discovered serious flaws in their research. Before you believe the claims these people make, you must realize that they also have other theories such as "Hitler saved Europe from Stalins invasion" and other nonsense. It's ironic that much of the propaganda that the West promoted(and still promotes today) was very helpful to Holocaust revisionists who needed ways of proving that Hitler wasn't such a bad guy.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=88537&postcount=55

I should point out that most of my "defense" of Stalin's history actually was the result of years I spent as an activist repeating anti-Stalin, anti-Communist claims, including the famine genocide(that is why I am already famliar with Infoukes). I do however have a great concern for objectivity and over time I began to have doubts about the accuracy of the claims I was repeating. It seemed like I could never find concrete proof of this or that massacre. Still I thought that those who denied things like the famine or the millions killed in the Great Purge had to have been crazy.

I struggled with the problem of proof for about two years until I finally decided to read what the other side said- and then it became clear why I could never find that concrete evidence I was searching for. It just doesn't exist.

LOL A classic David Irving-esque post. Just insert Hitler over Stalin.

Maybe you should revise your search by looking at some of the newly declassified documents?

And again, you stated that Nizkor is a good place to get Holocaust info. online with a great deal of credibility, yet they have a link to that very site -Infoukes! Perhaps they're in cahoots with Ukrainian ex-Nazis too! A point you've completely ignored in your OUN-mantra.

Apparently, they also question Tottle's scholarship. Or perhaps you can inform them of their egregious error, and then post the e-mail correspondence here for all to see, so we can all have a good laugh! :)


Here's a link to monosyllabic ****tard-Tottle's book, I got from "Google," where he admits his book "does not attempt to study the famine in any detailed way." Yeah, a book thats central thesis is that it's all an anti-Communist hoax meant to portray the USSR in an unfavorable historical light (by capitalists), but he doesn't actually study the famine?!?!

http://rationalrevolution.net/special/library/famine.htm

:lol:


Any three-year old child can see his attempt at little more than an ***-covering for crimes committed in the Soviet Union.


That went over your head I see.

**yawn**


Lectured by someone who doesn't know the subject matter, yes.

I'm lecturing a fool that gets all of his supposed "knowledge" from an apparantly uneducated Canadian labor activist, communists, and cannot find any reason to denounce the great Joe Stalin apparently.




Where is the lie?

It's a half-truth and blatant distortion you are using in some partisan flaming-fashion.


No, I don't get my facts from Google. I spend years and hundreds of dollars on books as well as many hours researching issues like this. Most of the research was done on the pro-famine side of the argument.

Google has no facts! It's a search engine! A tool, much like you are.

And it appears that your search comes down to a singular source of what is again a widely discredited book, by a Canadian labor activist, and a person that that did little else. Academics have dismissed his scurrilous methodologies.


Strawman. I never said the fact that you never set foot here is the main problem. The problem is you don't know the subject matter.

Other logical fallacy: Comparing this to Holocaust revisionism.

But a writer from Canada that has no apparent education or historical training, that only ever wrote one book, did?


Wrong, I was born in America.

Interesting. Didn't you say that you were Ukrainian? I believe one of your cohorts said that you have relatives in the Ukraine? Do you have duel citizenship?


No, you are stating errors.

Tell me how?


Actually it is very relevent. If you knew what you are talking about you would already know why.

No it isn't. Your central argument is that all sources for this famine being tantamount to genocide are essentially nationalist, pro-Nazi propaganda repeated by Ukrainian nationalists. This argument is clearly discredited in the source I provided. It's simply irrelevant....

Cont'd

Nickdfresh
10-01-2006, 08:08 AM
Strawman, I never said their weren't human rights abuses in the Soviet Union.

Sycophant, my name is not "Strawman."

What you did say was that you started out as an "anti-Stalin crusader." And that you gradually came to believe that he was essentially a good leader because you "couldn't find" evidence of his atrocities. Did you not?

It's a notion so patently absurd and intellectually offensive, that many would call you a preposterous liar.

Are we playing fast and loose with the cute semantics now?

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=88483&postcount=30

[color=blue]Chevan I personally knew a Holocaust-revisionist author and read a lot of their material. Many of them can make a good case, but I discovered serious flaws in their research. Before you believe the claims these people make, you must realize that they also have other theories such as "Hitler saved Europe from Stalins invasion" and other nonsense. It's ironic that much of the propaganda that the West promoted(and still promotes today) was very helpful to Holocaust revisionists who needed ways of proving that Hitler wasn't such a bad guy.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=88537&postcount=55

I should point out that most of my "defense" of Stalin's history actually was the result of years I spent as an activist repeating anti-Stalin, anti-Communist claims, including the famine genocide(that is why I am already famliar with Infoukes). I do however have a great concern for objectivity and over time I began to have doubts about the accuracy of the claims I was repeating. It seemed like I could never find concrete proof of this or that massacre. Still I thought that those who denied things like the famine or the millions killed in the Great Purge had to have been crazy.

I struggled with the problem of proof for about two years until I finally decided to read what the other side said- and then it became clear why I could never find that concrete evidence I was searching for. It just doesn't exist.

LOL A classic David Irving-esque post. Just insert Hitler over Stalin.

Maybe you should revise your search by looking at some of the newly declassified documents?

And again, you stated that Niztor is a good place to get Holocuast info. online, yet they have a link to that very site -Infoukes!




Lectured by someone who doesn't know the subject matter, yes.

I'm lecturing a fool that gets all of his supposed "knowledge" from an uneducated Canadian labor activist, communists, and cannot find any reason to denounce the great Joe Stalin apparently.



Where is the lie?[/quote]

It's a half-truth and blatant distortion you are using in some partisan flaming-fashion.


No, I don't get my facts from Google. I spend years and hundreds of dollars on books as well as many hours researching issues like this. Most of the research was done on the pro-famine side of the argument.

Google has no facts! it's a search engine! A tool, like you are!

And it appears that your search comes down to a singular source of what is again a widely discredited book, by a Canadian labor activist that did little else. Academics dismissed his scurrilous methodologies.


I cited Wiki as an example.

You distorted it into a truth. And BTW, they appear to soundly agree with you.

And to further discredit your arguments, you then tell everyone to look at a book posted online! :lol:

We can't use Google, or Wilki, but those online books are to accepted as absolute gospel on the subject.

BTW, you ignore that I've provided sources by Western academics in Eastern European studies dept's, not OUN or fascists. I never cited anything by Wilki.


I already told you what was incorrect. Your source lies about Tottle's argument and the facts he cites. I know this because I have read Tottle's book and ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT IS CONTAINED therein.

The "facts" he cites are plainly WRONG! He knowingly engages in deception to advance what he sees as a greater truth. In fact his contentions are so owned, that he must acknowledge that the first famine, which was also exacerbated by Soviet authorities, existed.


Strawman, I never said you proclaimed Wiki to be invaluable. The problem is that you seem to think you can match years of research by searching on the internet.

Yet you told me to consult the internet you fraud! And again, your sum total of "years of research" is that "it's not Stalin's fault" and a single cited book written in 1988, and a few articles coincidentally written around the same time, and of yes, an unbiased account written by a Belgian communist. A book that was shown to engage in deception then, now a book that must deal with the archives of the former Soviet Union.


Again, you have not read Tottle's book, you are not familiar with the subject matter, ergo you are unqualified to determine what are "lies" and what is "blathering" in this subject.

Well, seeing as I don't have time, and it's little more than I care for seeing as it has been roundly dismissed as an Irving-esque deception of the sycophantic.


You take at face value what supports your pre-conceived notions.

LOL How are those "years of research" going?


Guess who frequently volunteered for duty with the Einsatzgruppen?

Germans? oh, UKRAINIANS!! Really? wow! That must mean the Ukrainian Famine is all a fake perpetrated by fascists!!

And 1+1=10!!!!

BTW, didn't German Wehrmacht troops train in the Soviet Union for a time under Stalin's reign, with his full blessing? Since their armored formations would have been illegal in Germany under terms of Versailles...




No, in your delusional mind that twists my statements that may have happened, but certainly not here.

Welcome to my world.




Never said that- Strawman.




Read this thread and you will see EACH strawman argument I pointed out.




Wrong. That is what the article you posted CLAIMS. I have read the book so I know these claims are incorrect. You have not, ergo you are not in a position to make that decision.

LOL You fail to mention the article at all or refute any of its assertions. You ramble on about the "photo-argument" like a fool after the article roundly dismisses it a irrelevant (at worst), and in fact even a further a tacit acknowledgement that there were in fact two famines that were exacerbated or engineered by Soviets, not just one.

Nickdfresh
10-01-2006, 08:09 AM
Final part:


Please cite the page number or quote from Tottle when he said that.

LOL You're such a hypocrite! I have to annotate sources now in my arguments as you shit our of your mouth and repeat yourself? Never providing ANYTHING but a mantra of "read Tottle's book!"



Would you like me to?

I could give ****all actually. It seems that you really want to though.


I would love to see you do this same thing in a Physics forum. Start arguing with qualified people about subjects you know nothing about.

No. What I'd really love to have a Holocaust denier sit here and recite "read David Irving's book!"


Go to a physics forum and "own" those eggheads!

LOL So you're an "egg head" now? Are you an academic too?

Actually, if you weren't such so ****ing hypocritical and foolish, you'd see that the very title of Tottle's book "...to Harvard" implies exactly that! That he has this "new truth," and is "owning the eggheads," or academics at Harvard, Columbia, Quebec, etc. and inform them that it was ALL a fascist hoax and exaggeration. What a massive oversimplification that any historian or academic could see as hollow apologism and revisionism!

If you weren't so engaged in your double standards, hypocrisies, and bombastic assertions based on nothing, then you'd possibly see that.

In your time here, you also stated that there "is no such thing as Stalinism." Another lie that is so patently ridiculous, you'd be drummed out of any history dept. of most major universities.



Of course you can't because you don't know the claims on EITHER side apparently.



I provided more sources, you neglected to read them.

Pot tea-kettle sunshine. You keep repeating the same discredited arguments of repetition, the overreaching arguments of "fascist conspiracy of hoax," "your singular scholarship," "pictures from the wrong Soviet engineered famine as proof of a hoax," as the crux of your increasingly hollow arguments




WHICH declassified materials?

The ones you apparently missed in your desperate search as an "anti-Stalin crusader." :lol:

The ones academics have used to expose ideological buffoons such as yourself.






I cited Wiki as an example.

You distorted it into a truth. And BTW, they appear to soundly agree with you.

And to further discredit your arguments, you then tell everyone to look at a book posted online! :lol:

We can't use Google, or Wilki, but those online books are to accepted as absolute gospel on the subject.

BTW, you ignore that I've provided sources by Western academics in Eastern European studies dept's, not OUN or fascists. I never cited anything by Wilki.


I already told you what was incorrect. Your source lies about Tottle's argument and the facts he cites. I know this because I have read Tottle's book and ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT IS CONTAINED therein.

The "facts" he cites are plainly WRONG! He knowingly engages in deception to advance what he sees as a greater truth. In fact his contentions are so owned, that he must acknowledge that the first famine, which was also exacerbated by Soviet authorities, existed.


Strawman, I never said you proclaimed Wiki to be invaluable. The problem is that you seem to think you can match years of research by searching on the internet.

Yet you told me to consult the internet you fraud! And again, your sum total of "years of research" is that "it's not Stalin's fault" and a single cited book written in 1988, and a few articles coincidentally written around the same time, and of yes, an unbiased account written by a Belgian communist. A book that was shown to engage in deception then, now a book that must deal with the archives of the former Soviet Union.


Again, you have not read Tottle's book, you are not familiar with the subject matter, ergo you are unqualified to determine what are "lies" and what is "blathering" in this subject.

Well, seeing as I don't have time, and it's little more than I care for seeing as it has been roundly dismissed as an Irving-esque deception of the sycophantic.


You take at face value what supports your pre-conceived notions.

LOL How are those "years of research" going?


Guess who frequently volunteered for duty with the Einsatzgruppen?

Germans? oh, UKRAINIANS!! Really? wow! That must mean the Ukrainian Famine is all a fake perpetrated by fascists!!

And 1+1=10!!!!

BTW, didn't German Wehrmacht troops train in the Soviet Union for a time under Stalin's reign, with his full blessing? Since their armored formations would have been illegal in Germany under terms of Versailles...




No, in your delusional mind that twists my statements that may have happened, but certainly not here.

Welcome to my world.




Never said that- Strawman.




Read this thread and you will see EACH strawman argument I pointed out.




Wrong. That is what the article you posted CLAIMS. I have read the book so I know these claims are incorrect. You have not, ergo you are not in a position to make that decision.

LOL You fail to mention the article at all or refute any of its assertions. You ramble on about the "photo-argument" like a fool after the article roundly dismisses it a irrelevant (at worst), and in fact even a further a tacit acknowledgement that there were in fact two famines that were exacerbated or engineered by Soviets, not just one.


Please cite the page number or quote from Tottle when he said that.

LOL You're such a hypocrite! I have to annotate sources now in my arguments as you shit our of your mouth and repeat yourself? Never providing ANYTHING but a mantra of "read Tottle's book!"

Check the quote above!



Would you like me to?

I could give ****all actually. It seems that you really want to though.


I would love to see you do this same thing in a Physics forum. Start arguing with qualified people about subjects you know nothing about.

No. What I'd really love to have a Holocaust denier sit here and recite "read David Irving's book!"


Go to a physics forum and "own" those eggheads!

LOL So you're an "egg head" now? Are you an academic too? :lol:

Actually, if you weren't such so ****ing hypocritical and foolish, you'd see that the very title of Tottle's book "...to Harvard" implies exactly that! That he has this "new truth," and is "owning the eggheads," or academics at Harvard, Columbia, Quebec, etc. and inform them that it was ALL a fascist hoax and exaggeration. What a massive oversimplification that any historian or academic could see as hollow apologism and revisionism!

If you weren't so engaged in your double standards, hypocrisies, and bombastic assertions based on nothing --then you'd possibly see that.

In your time here, you also stated that there "is no such thing as Stalinism." Another lie that is so patently ridiculous, you'd be drummed out of any history dept. of most major universities.



Of course you can't because you don't know the claims on EITHER side apparently.



I provided more sources, you neglected to read them.

Pot tea-kettle sunshine. You keep repeating the same discredited arguments of repetition, the overreaching arguments of "fascist conspiracy of hoax," "your singular scholarship," "pictures from the wrong Soviet engineered famine as proof of a hoax," as the crux of your increasingly hollow arguments.




WHICH declassified materials?

The ones you apparently missed in your desperate search as an "anti-Stalin crusader." :lol:

The ones academics have used to expose thinly-veiled ideological-agenda-monkeys such as yourself.

Nickdfresh
10-01-2006, 08:12 AM
I'm with the Minstry of Truthiness.:)

http://ffmedia.ign.com/filmforce/image/colbert.jpg

Jasa
10-01-2006, 08:29 AM
Whole lotta nothing there. Once again you repeatedly lie, distort my arguments, and make assertions you are not qualified to make. I have repeatedly pointed out your distortions, logical fallacies, failure to account, throughout this entire thread. For specific examples feel free to browse this thread to your heart's content. Otherwise you are not going to insult my heritage and peopel any more with your ignorance or arrogance.

You claim that I deny excesses and killing under the Stalin regime: FALSE.

You claim that I accuse every pro-famine source of being Fascist: FALSE.

You continue to compare the famine genocide to the Holocaust: Inaccurate analogy- the Holocaust has met its burden of proof MANY times over, the famine has not. A famine is a natural occurance, gas chambers and firing squads are not.

You say I don't provide you with sources: FALSE, I provided you with several. You deliberately chose NOT to read ANY of them simply because you found an article claiming they were discreditted. You then decided that because these articles you recently found on the internet said my sources are "discreditted" that this may be the case.

I pointed out where your article makes false claims about Tottle's work. You IGNORED that.

You claimed that organizations like the OUN, or modern nationalist organizations are not "relevant" to this issue. They are EXTREMELY relevant.


I have asked you REPEATEDLY to cite which documents prove the famine of 32-33 was deliberate engineered genocide against the Ukrainian nationality. You have repeatedly refused to do so, thinking that you can somehow "prove" anything by saying "NKVD DOCUMENTS!"

And last but not least, in your ignorance you actually made an argument that supports MY side of the debate. I'm still going to hold on to that one for later.


Because you insist on lying and then accusing me of lying(among other things), and because you continue to ignore my demands that you account for your ignorant statements, I will hereby ignore you.

I will continue to do so until that time which you apologize in this thread for insulting the Ukrainian people, attempting to incite Ukrainian vs. Russian hatred(in reference to your earlier comments), and attempting to argue issues about which it is clear you know nothing.

I don't CARE if you still disagree, I don't care if you still insist that I am wrong. What matters is that I not be lectured as to who or what constitutes "facts" or what is "discreditted" by someone who never put in the time to get the necessary knowledge required to make those determinations.


The more you degenerate into profanity the more your age and lack of knowledge and experience is laid bare.

Nickdfresh
10-01-2006, 08:37 AM
:lol:

I'm not the that started the name calling "moron," you are!

You're out!

Jasa
10-01-2006, 08:40 AM
Now that the little boy is on ignore, I invite anyone who questions the conduct of this to please read all the pages of the thread and it will be apparent as to what my actual argument and facts are. I am not going to argue issues I have studied for years against some Google-saavy teenager that can't even handle Ukrainian geography.

Also, I encourage readers to examine BOTH sides of the issue. PLEASE read the article Nick posted and then find the PDF copy of Douglas Tottle's book, Famine, Fraud, and Fascism. You will soon see how the author of the article deliberate distorts Tottle's allegations and neglects to rebut a large portion of the book, including some of the most important arguments.


Since this is so often compared to Holocaust denial, I encourage people to learn exactly what evidence is provided to prove the Holocaust, and then compare it to what has been presented to date on the famine claims. Pay VERY close attention to the method by which the demographics are presented. You will see a disturbing difference between the simplicity of calculations for the Holocaust and the ridiculously complicated and convoluted method used to calculate the victims of the "famine genocide."

The famine genocide was the product of a fanatical nationalist organization, knowing West Ukrainian nationalists far better than I would like to, I believe that people like Tottle might actually be WRONG to simply call OUN "fascist" from the start. These nationalists have historically latched on to any and ALL stronger factions that could offer them power. In the Russian Civil War the Western Ukrainian army did at times fight alongside the Red Army. In order to avoid being part of the Ukrainian SSR, they then allowed the Poles to dominate Galicia. Growing tired of the Poles, they then began an insurrection against Poland, assisted the Nazis in their invasion, and then later slaughtered thousands of innocent Poles throughout the war. Decades later, these emigres found willing accomplices with Western governments eager to break up the Soviet Union, of course doing so meant rewriting the history and propaganda of their organizations. Blaming the famine on the Jewish-Bolsheviks didn't go over so well in liberal democratic societies.


Today they continue to drone on about "Ukrainian" independence and distinctions- yet they do so from comfortable places like Toronto or Sacramento, never having to actually LIVE in the "free" country they allegedly "fought for". No loss of course, Ukraine doesn't need them.

Nickdfresh
10-01-2006, 08:59 AM
Here's a link on an ongoing project to examine declassified Soviet documents:

http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/faculty/harrison/archive/persa/027fulltext.pdf#search=%22ukraine%20famine%20nkvd% 20declassified%22

Jasa
10-01-2006, 09:09 AM
From the source, Pgs 10-11:

"These reports presented a world of conspiracy and counter-revolution which
was almost absent from t he regular reports of the economic agencies, except during the purges of 1937 1938. The characteristic feature of all NKVD reports was their emphasis on cases and alleged cases of social unrest and sabotage. But they did not consist entirely of myths which were distorting reality. Sometimes they dealt with matters which the normal economic agencies were reluctant to report, or not allowed
to report. It was apparently the NKVD reports on the rural famine in the spring of 1933 which persuaded Stalin that the famine was not a kulak myth."


I have yet to see the claim that Stalin believed the famine to be a "kulak myth". There are plenty of records inside and outside of the Soviet Union relating to the struggle in the countryside that was going on prior to the famine. We know that Stalin was well-informed by subordinates on these problems, so much to the extent that he even publicly addressed these issues and put much of the blame on the party rather than the kulak sabotuers.

I will attempt to print this document out and examine it. To date the most extensive, authentic study of declassified Soviet archival documents was conducted by J. Arch Getty, Dugin, and Zemskov. They worked together examining over 9,000 documents regarding the GULAG system.

Nickdfresh
10-01-2006, 09:15 AM
The official Ukranian Gov't website (http://www.ukrstat.gov.ua/), or "OU fascists," as Jasa likes to say. :)


Towards a Descriptive Typology of the Ukrainian Archival Heritage Abroad (http://www.archives.gov.ua/Eng/Descriptive_Typology.php)

Nickdfresh
10-01-2006, 09:30 AM
Ukraine Famine - 1932-1933 - 7,000,000 Deaths

Joseph Stalin, leader of the Soviet Union, set in motion events designed to cause a famine in the Ukraine to destroy the people there seeking independence from his rule. As a result, an estimated 7,000,000 persons perished in this farming area, known as the breadbasket of Europe, with the people deprived of the food they had grown with their own hands.

The Ukrainian independence movement actually predated the Stalin era. Ukraine, which measures about the size of France, had been under the domination of the Imperial Czars of Russia for 200 years. With the collapse of the Czarist rule in March 1917, it seemed the long-awaited opportunity for independence had finally arrived. Optimistic Ukrainians declared their country to be an independent People's Republic and re-established the ancient capital city of Kiev as the seat of government.

However, their newfound freedom was short-lived. By the end of 1917, Vladimir Lenin, the first leader of the Soviet Union, sought to reclaim all of the areas formerly controlled by the Czars, especially the fertile Ukraine. As a result, four years of chaos and conflict followed in which Ukrainian national troops fought against Lenin's Red Army, and also against Russia's White Army (troops still loyal to the Czar) as well as other invading forces including the Germans and Poles.

By 1921, the battles ended with a Soviet victory while the western part of the Ukraine was divided-up among Poland, Romania, and Czechoslovakia. The Soviets immediately began shipping out huge amounts of grain to feed the hungry people of Moscow and other big Russian cities. Coincidentally, a drought occurred in the Ukraine, resulting in widespread starvation and a surge of popular resentment against Lenin and the Soviets.

Ukraine Famine

To lessen the deepening resentment, Lenin relaxed his grip on the country, stopped taking out so much grain, and even encouraged a free-market exchange of goods. This breath of fresh air renewed the people's interest in independence and resulted in a national revival movement celebrating their unique folk customs, language, poetry, music, arts, and Ukrainian orthodox religion.

But when Lenin died in 1924, Joseph Stalin, one of the most ruthless humans ever to hold power, succeeded him. To Stalin, the burgeoning national revival movement and continuing loss of Soviet influence in the Ukraine was completely unacceptable. To crush the people's free spirit, he began to employ the same methods he had successfully used within the Soviet Union. Thus, beginning in 1929, over 5,000 Ukrainian scholars, scientists, cultural and religious leaders were arrested after being falsely accused of plotting an armed revolt. Those arrested were either shot without a trial or deported to prison camps in remote areas of Russia.

Stalin also imposed the Soviet system of land management known as collectivization. This resulted in the seizure of all privately owned farmlands and livestock, in a country where 80 percent of the people were traditional village farmers. Among those farmers, was a class of people called Kulaks by the Communists. They were formerly wealthy farmers that had owned 24 or more acres, or had employed farm workers. Stalin believed any future insurrection would be led by the Kulaks, thus he proclaimed a policy aimed at "liquidating the Kulaks as a class."

Declared "enemies of the people," the Kulaks were left homeless and without a single possession as everything were taken from them, even their pots and pans. It was also forbidden by law for anyone to aid dispossessed Kulak families. Some researchers estimate that ten million persons were thrown out of their homes, put on railroad box cars and deported to "special settlements" in the wilderness of Siberia during this era, with up to a third of them perishing amid the frigid living conditions. Men and older boys, along with childless women and unmarried girls, also became slave-workers in Soviet-run mines and big industrial projects.

Back in the Ukraine, once-proud village farmers were by now reduced to the level of rural factory workers on large collective farms. Anyone refusing to participate in the compulsory collectivization system was simply denounced as a Kulak and deported.

A propaganda campaign was started utilizing eager young Communist activists who spread out among the country folk attempting to shore up the people's support for the Soviet regime. However, their attempts failed. Despite the propaganda, ongoing coercion and threats, the people continued to resist through acts of rebellion and outright sabotage. They burned their own homes rather than surrender them. They took back their property, tools and farm animals from the collectives, harassed and even assassinated local Soviet authorities. This ultimately put them in direct conflict with the power and authority of Joseph Stalin.

Soviet troops and secret police were rushed in to put down the rebellion. They confronted rowdy farmers by firing warning shots above the their heads. In some cases, however, they fired directly at the people. Stalin's secret police (GPU, predecessor of the KGB) also went to work waging a campaign of terror designed to break the people's will. GPU squads systematically attacked and killed uncooperative farmers.

But the resistance continued. The people simply refused to become cogs in the Soviet farm machine and remained stubbornly determined to return to their pre-Soviet farming lifestyle. Some refused to work at all, leaving the wheat and oats to rot in unharvested fields. Once again, they were placing themselves in conflict with Stalin.

In Moscow, Stalin responded to their unyielding defiance by dictating a policy that would deliberately cause mass starvation and result in the deaths of millions.

By mid 1932, nearly 75 percent of the farms in the Ukraine had been forcibly collectivized. On Stalin's orders, mandatory quotas of foodstuffs to be shipped out to the Soviet Union were drastically increased in August, October and again in January 1933, until there was simply no food remaining to feed the people of the Ukraine.

Much of the hugely abundant wheat crop harvested by the Ukrainians that year was dumped on the foreign market to generate cash to aid Stalin's Five Year Plan for the modernization of the Soviet Union and also to help finance his massive military buildup. If the wheat had remained in the Ukraine, it was estimated to have been enough to feed all of the people there for up to two years.

Ukrainian Communists urgently appealed to Moscow for a reduction in the grain quotas and also asked for emergency food aid. Stalin responded by denouncing them and rushed in over 100,000 fiercely loyal Russian soldiers to purge the Ukrainian Communist Party. The Soviets then sealed off the borders of the Ukraine, preventing any food from entering, in effect turning the country into a gigantic concentration camp. Soviet police troops inside the Ukraine also went house to house seizing any stored up food, leaving farm families without a morsel. All food was considered to be the "sacred" property of the State. Anyone caught stealing State property, even an ear of corn or stubble of wheat, could be shot or imprisoned for not less than ten years.

Starvation quickly ensued throughout the Ukraine, with the most vulnerable, children and the elderly, first feeling the effects of malnutrition. The once-smiling young faces of children vanished forever amid the constant pain of hunger. It gnawed away at their bellies, which became grossly swollen, while their arms and legs became like sticks as they slowly starved to death.

Mothers in the countryside sometimes tossed their emaciated children onto passing railroad cars traveling toward cities such as Kiev in the hope someone there would take pity. But in the cities, children and adults who had already flocked there from the countryside were dropping dead in the streets, with their bodies carted away in horse-drawn wagons to be dumped in mass graves. Occasionally, people lying on the sidewalk who were thought to be dead, but were actually still alive, were also carted away and buried.

While police and Communist Party officials remained quite well fed, desperate Ukrainians ate leaves off bushes and trees, killed dogs, cats, frogs, mice and birds then cooked them. Others, gone mad with hunger, resorted to cannibalism, with parents sometimes even eating their own children.

Meanwhile, nearby Soviet-controlled granaries were said to be bursting at the seams from huge stocks of 'reserve' grain, which had not yet been shipped out of the Ukraine. In some locations, grain and potatoes were piled in the open, protected by barbed wire and armed GPU guards who shot down anyone attempting to take the food. Farm animals, considered necessary for production, were allowed to be fed, while the people living among them had absolutely nothing to eat.

By the spring of 1933, the height of the famine, an estimated 25,000 persons died every day in the Ukraine. Entire villages were perishing. In Europe, America and Canada, persons of Ukrainian descent and others responded to news reports of the famine by sending in food supplies. But Soviet authorities halted all food shipments at the border. It was the official policy of the Soviet Union to deny the existence of a famine and thus to refuse any outside assistance. Anyone claiming that there was in fact a famine was accused of spreading anti-Soviet propaganda. Inside the Soviet Union, a person could be arrested for even using the word 'famine' or 'hunger' or 'starvation' in a sentence.

Cont'd

Nickdfresh
10-01-2006, 09:30 AM
The Soviets bolstered their famine denial by duping members of the foreign press and international celebrities through carefully staged photo opportunities in the Soviet Union and the Ukraine. The writer George Bernard Shaw, along with a group of British socialites, visited the Soviet Union and came away with a favorable impression, which he disseminated, to the world. Former French Premier Edouard Herriot was given a five-day stage-managed tour of the Ukraine, viewing spruced-up streets in Kiev and inspecting a 'model' collective farm. He also came away with a favorable impression and even declared there was indeed no famine.

Back in Moscow, six British engineers working in the Soviet Union were arrested and charged with sabotage, espionage and bribery, and threatened with the death penalty. The sensational show trial that followed was actually a cynical ruse to deflect the attention of foreign journalists from the famine. Journalists were warned they would be shut out of the trial completely if they wrote news stories about the famine. Most of the foreign press corp yielded to the Soviet demand and either didn't cover the famine or wrote stories sympathetic to the official Soviet propaganda line that it didn't exist. Among those was Pulitzer Prize winning reporter Walter Duranty of the New York Times who sent one dispatch stating "...all talk of famine now is ridiculous."

Outside the Soviet Union, governments of the West adopted a passive attitude toward the famine, although most of them had become aware of the true suffering in the Ukraine through confidential diplomatic channels. In November 1933, the United States, under its new president, Franklin D. Roosevelt, even chose to formally recognized Stalin's Communist government and also negotiated a sweeping new trade agreement. The following year, the pattern of denial in the West culminated with the admission of the Soviet Union into the League of Nations.

Stalin's Five Year Plan for the modernization of the Soviet Union depended largely on the purchase of massive amounts of manufactured goods and technology from Western nations. Those nations were unwilling to disrupt lucrative trade agreements with the Soviet Union in order to pursue the matter of the famine.

By the end of 1933, nearly 25 percent of the population of the Ukraine, including three million children, had perished. The Kulaks as a class were destroyed and an entire nation of village farmers had been laid low. With his immediate objectives now achieved, Stalin allowed food distribution to resume inside the Ukraine and the famine subsided. However, political persecutions and further round-ups of 'enemies' continued unchecked in the years following the famine, interrupted only in June 1941 when Nazi troops stormed into the country. Hitler's troops, like all previous invaders, arrived in the Ukraine to rob the breadbasket of Europe and simply replaced one reign of terror with another.

From the OU fascist Nazis @: http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Genocide/Ukraine_famine.htm

Jasa
10-01-2006, 09:31 AM
This amendment was going to be added to my last post but something went wrong so I'm putting it as a new post.


AMENDMENT:

Although I am somewhat disturbed that the author doesn't seem to have mentioned Getty's work in one of the relevant sections(I could have just missed it), this document does not seem to be of the usual sensationalist manner and I believe that this author may very well be an objective person seriously in search of the truth. That being said the author also excplicitly said in this DISCLAIMER

"This is a preliminary working paper. Please do not cite it in your own publications without consulting the author."

This is a paper ABOUT archival research, I will have to compare it's claims to the copies of other archival works I have at my home computer to determine if any propaganda has slipped in, but I don't see anything glaring EXCEPT the suggestion that Conquest's calculations on executions was completely correct- Getty's well-recognized archival research severly gutted Conquest's claims, but then again those who know Conquest's history don't pay much attention to him anymore.


Observers should take note that I have deliberately avoided arguing the morality, necessity, or context of Stalinist repressions- which articles like this may often bring up. I think it is still prudent to do so lest this thread run all over the past three centuries.

Jasa
10-01-2006, 09:34 AM
Nick's last two posts cite no sources and rely on the conspiracy that the Soviet Union was able to somehow "trick" numerous people into thinking that everything was fine in the Ukraine while there was allegedly widespread famine killing millions. Strange that many visitors to the Soviet Union reported problems with the Soviet system and economy that were told to them by the people in the countries they visited. Never mind that the man who first publicized the famine lied about ever being in Ukraine(Thomas Walker).

Once again people that are ignorant believe they can get on Google and suddenly become an expert on something.

The little boy was doing SO well when he attempted to post the "declassified documents"(which was actually a paper about research on documents)- then he has to screw everything up two posts later. How tragic.



Observers note that he is still repeating the strawman that I accuse all believers in the Ukrainian famine of Fascism or Fascist sympathies. I have repeatedly straightened that out.

Nickdfresh
10-01-2006, 09:41 AM
http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/bcaplan/museum/hit&stal.jpg

From the George Mason University Museum of Communism (http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/bcaplan/museum/comfaq.htm)

Nickdfresh
10-01-2006, 09:47 AM
5. What were the most important human rights violations committed by Stalin?

Joseph Stalin won a leading role in the Communist Party during Lenin's failing years, and after a few years of power-sharing he obtained dictatorial powers that exceeded even those of Lenin. In recent years, historians have gradually recognized that Stalin was personally responsible for the murder of more people than any other human being in the 20th century - and probably any other century. Stalin took Lenin's system of slave labor camps and turned it into a vast secret empire in the depths of Siberia. Lenin chose to let millions starve to death in order to sustain his war effort, but Stalin went further by deliberately engineering famines on an even greater scale. Finally, Stalin crossed the one line that Lenin would not, by ordering the executions of fellow Communists on a massive scale.

* Deaths due to extreme hardship conditions in slave labor camps

Lenin pioneered the slave labor camp, but Stalin expanded it literally a hundredfold. Under Lenin, the inmates numbered fewer than 100,000. By 1930, they numbered 1,000,000. By 1940, the Gulag Archipelago housed fully 10,000,000 pitiful souls. The death rate was extraordinary: 10-30% per year, for the prisoners performed demanding labor such as mining and timber-cutting with minimal food and clothing in freezing temperatures. The slaves were ruled by an elite of secret police, now known as the NKVD. As Robert Conquest describes:

In the vast empty spaces in the north and the Far East, areas as big as fair-sized countries came under complete NKVD control. There were many camps scattered through the Urals, in the Archangel area, and more especially in and around Karaganda and on the new railway being built from Turkestan to Siberia. But in these, the NKVD administered only comparatively small enclaves... The two biggest true colonies of the NKVD empire were the great stretch of northwestern Russia beyond the Kotlas, comprising roughly what is shown on the map as the Komi Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic, and the even vaster area of the Far East centered on the gold fields of Kolyma. These regions had, before the NKVD took over, populations of a handful of Russians and a few thousand Arctic tribesmen. A decade later, they held between them something between 1.25 and 2 million prisoners. (The Great Terror)

Who were the prisoners? Before Stalin's collectivization of agriculture, the composition was quite mixed. Anyone who opposed the Communists, from Czarist reactionary to Social Revolutionary, might be consigned to the camps. While almost invariably innocent of any definite action against their government, they were perceived as potential enemies. After 1930, the composition of the camps drastically changed. Suddenly, millions upon millions of peasant families were sentenced to Siberia. Stalin called them "kulaks," or wealthy farmers, though in fact any peasant somehow caught up in resistance to forced collectivization was labeled a "kulak." As the democratic socialist Carl Landauer observes:

Between the persecution of the Armenians by the Turks during the First World War and the extermination of "undesirable" races by Hitler, the Bolshevik campaign against the kulaks and the former bourgeois was probably the only instance in which large masses of men, women, and children were by administrative order dislodged from their places of habitation and brought into camps where many, if not most of them, were sure to perish - and were meant to perish. (European Socialism: A History of Ideas and Movements)

After Stalin crushed peasant resistance, the enormous death rate in the slave labor camps ensured that the number of inmates could not remain steady - unless more and more people were declared enemies of the people and sentenced to Siberia. Stalin claimed to find conspiracies and enemies everywhere. "Kulaks" were blamed for all agricultural failures, while "wreckers" bore responsibility for industrial disasters. Intellectuals, ethnic leaders, and officers in the military became targets. Anyone with contact with foreign countries could be easily declared a spy. Then Stalin began to target fellow Communists, purging them for left deviations, right deviations, treason, and espionage. As Conquest notes, at the 1939 Party Congress, "Of the 1,966 delegates to the [1934] Congress, 1,108 had been arrested for counter-revolutionary crimes." (The Great Terror) Sentences to Siberia were their typical fate. Foreign Communists living in the USSR, especially foreign Communists from non-democratic countries, almost invariably wound up in Siberia. Even the NKVD itself was purged, so that the secret policeman of today might be the inmate of tomorrow.

After Stalin was satisfied with the composition of the Communist Party, new waves of victims arose. Millions of Poles were sent to slave labor camps in 1939 when Stalin and Hitler divided Poland. In 1940, Stalin annexed the Baltic states and sent 2-4% of their populations to the slave camps. During World War II, any ethnicity deemed disloyal was likely to be deported en masse: ethnic Germans - including the Volga Germans who had lived in Russia for centuries - were deported to Siberia, along with Chechens, Crimean Tatars, and other nationalities. With the end of World War II, the prison population was replenished not only with German POWs, and German civilians (including ethnic Germans scattered across Europe), but with Soviet POWs. Stalin considered captured Soviet soldiers to be traitors, so they had the opportunity to perform slave labor for Stalin as well as Hitler.

Stalin's slave empire lasted so long and went through so many waves of victims that one is left speechless. So many millions perished within the Gulag Archipelago for so many reasons, or for no reason. With a minimum of 5,000,000 slave laborers from 1931 to 1950, and a minimum death toll of 10% per year - both improbably low figures - one can conclude that Stalin's camps claimed a minimum of 10,000,000 victims, and easily two or three times as many.

* Deaths due to man-made famine.

Lenin knew that his agricultural policies might cause widespread famine, but implemented them anyway. Stalin went further. Not only did he know that his policies would cause widespread famine; he turned famine into a political weapon by deliberately and selectively amplifying its horrors. Lenin nominally gave peasants the title to their land, while effectively expropriating them by forcing them to sell their crops for a pittance. Stalin went further by ordering the forced collectivization of agriculture. The peasants lost their land and became employees of the state; moreover, they had to obtain government permission to quit their jobs, which was often impossible to obtain. State-owned serf plantations had returned to Russia after a 70-year lapse.

Nickdfresh
10-01-2006, 09:48 AM
Naturally, reducing landed free peasants to serfs required massive application of government force. Wealthy, prominent, or recalcitrant peasants were dubbed "kulaks" and deported to Siberia. Still the peasants resisted; food production drastically declined, farm animals were slaughtered, and surplus grain ferreted away. In 1930, the peasants' reaction to forced collectivization was so extreme that even Stalin backed away. But this was only a tactical retreat, and by 1934 90% of sown acreage in the USSR was owned by collective (i.e., government) farms.

Food production of all kinds drastically declined. Slave labor in the fields proved far less efficient than free labor; the harvest of grain and other crops shrank. The herds of livestock often declined by 50% or more by either slaughter before collectivization, or neglect after collectivization. But Stalin was not interested in total food production, but in how much food he could squeeze out of the peasants without compensation. The collective farms were ordered to surrender their quota of food to the state, under severe penalty. As Conquest explains, "The basic principle was that a certain amount of grain must be delivered to the state regardless, and that this demand must be satisfied before the needs of the peasantry could be taken into consideration. A law of 16 October 1931 forbade reserving grain for internal kolkhoz [collective farm] needs until the procurement plan was fulfilled." (The Harvest of Sorrow: Soviet Collectivization and the Terror-Famine) If production declined, it could be taken out of the hides of the peasants. This was precisely what Stalin had in mind.

From the outset, the quotas set for delivery were far too high, especially considering the decline in total production. As the peasants began to face severe hunger, in 1932, one might have expected the quotas to be reduced - especially since Stalin actually had grain to export. But instead, in early 1933 Stalin demanded still more food from the desperate peasantry. Yet his exactions were uneven: they were particularly inhuman for the Ukraine, Don, Kuban, and lower Volga - regions where popular sentiment against Communist oppression and Russification was strong. As Conquest notes, "Nor is it the case that the famine, or the excessive grain targets, were imposed on the most productive grain-producing areas as such, as a - mistaken or vicious - economic policy merely. There was no famine in the rich Russian 'Central Agricultural Region'; and on the other hand the grain-poor Ukrainian provinces of Volhynia and Podilia suffered along with the rest of the country." (The Harvest of Sorrow: Soviet Collectivization and the Terror-Famine)

All of the facts point to a deliberate effort to use starvation as a tool of genocide. Seed grain in 1932 in the Ukraine was for the first time taken from the peasants and stored in urban granaries: officials realized that once starvation set in the peasants would try to eat the seed grain. The Ukrainian-Russian border was carefully guarded to keep Russian grain out of the famine-stricken Ukraine and starving Ukrainians out of Russia. Government grain stockpiles were available, but unused.

This mixture of ruthless methods resulted in the starvation deaths of about 7 million people: 5 million in the Ukraine, 1 million in the North Caucasus region, and 1 million elsewhere. On top of this, a similar collectivization campaign carried out against the nomads of Kazahkstan led to 1 million further deaths.

The famine in 1933 was the worst under Stalin's rule, but not the last. Famines swept Eastern Europe and the USSR again after World War II, although here the Nazis bore part of the blame. Stalin also shares responsibility for the deaths - again mostly through hunger - of ethnic Germans expelled from Eastern Europe with the Red Army's advance. The Communist-dominated governments of Poland and Czechoslovakia shared with Stalin the blame for some 2 million unnatural deaths of ethnic Germans. (see Alfred-Maurice de Zayas, A Terrible Revenge: The Ethnic Cleansing of the East European Germans, 1944- 1950)

* Executions

On April 7, 1935, Stalin issued a decree authorizing the death penalty for children as young as 12 years old. While far more of Stalin's subjects died in slave labor camps and man-made famines than from execution, even here the numbers are startling. There were approximately one million executions during the Great Terror of 1936-1939, and probably over five million for his entire reign. The executed were often Stalin's opponents within the Party, or his less eager friends, or foreign Communists. Large numbers of officers were executed. Polish POWs taken in 1939 were executed en masse in Katyn and elsewhere. Almost all of Stalin's comrades in the Russian Civil War were executed or assassinated at his orders: Trotsky, Zinoviev, Bukharin, Kamenev, Rykov, Tomsky, and (as recent discoveries confirm) Kirov. Many of these were tortured, bullied, and threatened into condemning themselves in the so-called "show trials," where they absurdly confessed to large-scale espionage and subversion. The poetic justice of the trials of Stalin's ex-comrades is palpable, since a Nuremberg-style trial of the Communist leadership for crimes against humanity would have condemned most of them to death. So numerous were Stalin's victims that amongst the oceans of innocents executed, justice occasionally accidentally descended upon the guilty.

Hey Jasa, I helped you fiind some atrocities committed by Stalin.

Ohhhh! You're welcome! ;)

Nickdfresh
10-01-2006, 09:54 AM
Nick's last two posts cite no sources and rely on the conspiracy that the Soviet Union was able to somehow "trick" numerous people into thinking that everything was fine in the Ukraine while there was allegedly widespread famine killing millions. Strange that many visitors to the Soviet Union reported problems with the Soviet system and economy that were told to them by the people in the countries they visited. Never mind that the man who first publicized the famine lied about ever being in Ukraine(Thomas Walker).

Once again people that are ignorant believe they can get on Google and suddenly become an expert on something.

The little boy was doing SO well when he attempted to post the "declassified documents"(which was actually a paper about research on documents)- then he has to screw everything up two posts later. How tragic.



Observers note that he is still repeating the strawman that I accuse all believers in the Ukrainian famine of Fascism or Fascist sympathies. I have repeatedly straightened that out.

LOL Once again, Jasa provides the cherry-picked rantings of a Canadian author with no formal education and historical training as the basis for his beliefs, whereas I have "Googled" major Human Rights organization with no bias that also condemns Western gov'ts, such as my own. I have also provided sources from the GMU History department, one of the most respected American universities.

BTW, I attended GMU, so I didn't need to "Google" anything. Where did you go to school again Jasa?

Communists are ignorant inhuman rationalizers of mass-murder!

Nickdfresh
10-01-2006, 10:10 AM
This amendment was going to be added to my last post but something went wrong so I'm putting it as a new post.


AMENDMENT:

Although I am somewhat disturbed that the author doesn't seem to have mentioned Getty's work in one of the relevant sections(I could have just missed it), this document does not seem to be of the usual sensationalist manner and I believe that this author may very well be an objective person seriously in search of the truth. That being said the author also excplicitly said in this DISCLAIMER

"This is a preliminary working paper. Please do not cite it in your own publications without consulting the author."

This is a paper ABOUT archival research, I will have to compare it's claims to the copies of other archival works I have at my home computer to determine if any propaganda has slipped in, but I don't see anything glaring EXCEPT the suggestion that Conquest's calculations on executions was completely correct- Getty's well-recognized archival research severly gutted Conquest's claims, but then again those who know Conquest's history don't pay much attention to him anymore.


Observers should take note that I have deliberately avoided arguing the morality, necessity, or context of Stalinist repressions- which articles like this may often bring up. I think it is still prudent to do so lest this thread run all over the past three centuries.

I provided a link, I cited nothing.

And all you are doing is attacking the message bearer, because your ideology is one of lies.

Why don't you provide your historical sources indicating that all Ukrainian nationalists are fascists or Nazi-collaborators.

Again, you've listed exactly: two articles, a discredited book written by an uneducated Canadian, and some sort of expertise on the Ukraine that you never document or show proof/sources of.

Nickdfresh
10-01-2006, 10:11 AM
This amendment was going to be added to my last post but something went wrong so I'm putting it as a new post.


AMENDMENT:

Although I am somewhat disturbed that the author doesn't seem to have mentioned Getty's work in one of the relevant sections(I could have just missed it), this document does not seem to be of the usual sensationalist manner and I believe that this author may very well be an objective person seriously in search of the truth. That being said the author also excplicitly said in this DISCLAIMER

"This is a preliminary working paper. Please do not cite it in your own publications without consulting the author."

This is a paper ABOUT archival research, I will have to compare it's claims to the copies of other archival works I have at my home computer to determine if any propaganda has slipped in, but I don't see anything glaring EXCEPT the suggestion that Conquest's calculations on executions was completely correct- Getty's well-recognized archival research severly gutted Conquest's claims, but then again those who know Conquest's history don't pay much attention to him anymore.


Observers should take note that I have deliberately avoided arguing the morality, necessity, or context of Stalinist repressions- which articles like this may often bring up. I think it is still prudent to do so lest this thread run all over the past three centuries.

I provided a link, I cited nothing.

And all you are doing is attacking the message bearer, because your ideology is one of lies.

Why don't you provide your historical sources indicating that all Ukrainian nationalists are fascists or Nazi-collaborators.

Again, you've listed exactly: two articles, a discredited book written by an uneducated Canadian, and some sort of expertise on the Ukraine that you never document or show proof/sources of.


Freedom is slavery...War is peace.

Nickdfresh
10-01-2006, 10:18 AM
BTW, this is where Jasa is getting his info:
http://www.etext.org/Politics/Staljin/Staljin/articles/lies/node6.html

http://www.stalinsociety.org.uk/ukrainian.html

Googling teen indeed...

Nickdfresh
10-01-2006, 11:05 AM
New thread (http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3901) for Stalin-boy...

Chevan
10-02-2006, 03:25 AM
I provided a link, I cited nothing.

And all you are doing is attacking the message bearer, because your ideology is one of lies.

Why don't you provide your historical sources indicating that all Ukrainian nationalists are fascists or Nazi-collaborators.

Again, you've listed exactly: two articles, a discredited book written by an uneducated Canadian, and some sort of expertise on the Ukraine that you never document or show proof/sources of.


Freedom is slavery...War is peace.

Let's finish this senseless wrangle.
It became insulting for each other.


By 1940, the Gulag Archipelago housed fully 10,000,000 pitiful souls...

this is enought to no more read this shit.
About femine ;)
Nickdfresh, my gramma had a sister in Ukraine and she told me about femine of 1932-1933. Simular the situation was in Kuban and Volga region before the beginnig of collectivisation . The victims were of couse , but its number was never a "millions".
If it would be, the population of this regions of USSR were decreased.
But according the census of 1928 -1937 yy the population all of the republic of SU was increased over a millions.
Therefore i don't see the reason to overstate the situation. Obviously you use a Cold War propoganga sources.
Method is simple.
Take the number ececuted in Gulag (since 1932-1953) 800 000 and multipled in 20 ( most bold "historians" ever 40 or 60 times).
800 000 ( OK., 1 million) - this is tragedy - but 20/40/60 millions this is propoganda already
This f..ng historians don't worry about increasing of population in 1930-1941.
Besause in West everybody easy could belive this shit.
But unfortinatelly for you ( and peoples like you) recollections of my ancestors and offisial russians NKVD-archives documents will not let you to mislead the peoples.

Lancer44
10-02-2006, 04:52 AM
But unfortinatelly for you ( and peoples like you) recollections of my ancestors and offisial russians NKVD-archives documents will not let you to mislead the peoples.

Chevan, NKVD archives proves 10 mln victims claim.

"In XX century Ukraine suffered 3 famines: 1921-1923, 1932-1933 and 1946-1947. However, the second one was the most terrible.

According to the historians, the famine of 1932-1933 resulted from the administrative measures of the soviet power killed about 7-10 million people.

It means that at that time Ukraine registered a 10-25% decline in the population, losing 25 thousand people per day, 3 thousand per hour and 17 per minute.
The experts drew the conclusion that in 1931 the life span of a man run at 7,3 years, the life span of a woman 10,9 years. According to the experts, Ukraine is still suffering from the consequences of the events of the 1930s."

Don't forget that there are also the other sources. In 1932-33 Polish II-nd Department of General Staff, had wide intelligence network in Eastern Ukraine which was considered an operation area of future war.
Ukrainian famine was reported, analysed and reports passed to French and British intelligence agencies.
Assumption that soviet Ukraine was cut off from outside world is wrong.
I will look in some sources and publish them here.

Lancer44

Jasa
10-02-2006, 04:56 AM
Jesus Christ, I've been going over the last source the teenager provided and I discovered it to be EXCELLENT material that actually refutes his claim(mainly because he's not sure what his claim is apparently). This is the SECOND time he has provided something that actually aids my argument, based on his ignorance of the topic in general.

The first was his claim that the Ukrainian population grew because Stalin moved "Russians" into the region. Of course had he studied the material on this claim and was familiar with the bizarre method by which the famine deaths were calculated, he wouldn't have made such a comment. That's what ignorance does.

I looked over his paper that he provided, presumably "NKVD documents". Of course the paper ISN'T NKVD documents but actually a paper ABOUT research in the Soviet archives. Most of it deals with the economy and the one line I found in reference to the famine claims(without footnote reference) that Stalin had to be convinced that the famine was not a kulak myth. I wish the author would have been more specific about what they meant but taken at face value, we can logically conclude that this could not have happened if the famine were indeed a conscious man-made action against the Ukrainians(plenty of famine writers admit that there were also problems in the North Caucasus and Volga regions outside of Ukraine), Stalin would not have needed to be convinced it was happening by the people he would have ordered to carry it out!


This is why there is no point in debating with this boy. His arugment relies on strawman fallacies, ad hominem, and illogical comparisons to the Holocaust(there is a big difference between gas chambers and firing squads and a famine).

Worst of all, his total ignorance about even his own arguments means that he has already TWICE made claims that support my side and he won't admit it.

In fact I am keeping the paper he linked to by Davies and I will definitely be citing it in future discussions on Stalin- that is debates with opponents who actually have the required knowledge to comment on these issues.

Jasa
10-02-2006, 05:03 AM
Chevan, NKVD archives proves 10 mln victims claim.

"In XX century Ukraine suffered 3 famines: 1921-1923, 1932-1933 and 1946-1947. However, the second one was the most terrible.

According to the historians, the famine of 1932-1933 resulted from the administrative measures of the soviet power killed about 7-10 million people.

It means that at that time Ukraine registered a 10-25% decline in the population, losing 25 thousand people per day, 3 thousand per hour and 17 per minute.
The experts drew the conclusion that in 1931 the life span of a man run at 7,3 years, the life span of a woman 10,9 years. According to the experts, Ukraine is still suffering from the consequences of the events of the 1930s."

Don't forget that there are also the other sources. In 1932-33 Polish II-nd Department of General Staff, had wide intelligence network in Eastern Ukraine which was considered an operation area of future war.
Ukrainian famine was reported, analysed and reports passed to French and British intelligence agencies.
Assumption that soviet Ukraine was cut off from outside world is wrong.
I will look in some sources and publish them here.

Lancer44


WHICH NKVD documents? I already told the little boy that you can't just say "NKVD documents" to support any old claim.

The population deficits in Ukraine reflect a lowering of the BIRTHRATE as well as census recalculations that changed the nationality of people(e.g. mixed marriage). This is based on the PRO-GENOCIDE method of calculating deaths by using the birthrate in 1926 and then when looking at the population in 1939 they claim that the difference between their projection and the actual population in 1939 is the number of people that died. In other words, they count as "dead" many people that simply weren't born for a number of reasons.

By contrast the method for calculating the deaths in the Holocaust is far simpler and shows a population LOSS. Using the Nazi estimate of 11 million Jews under the areas they controlled, research showed that about 6 or more million of those COULD NOT BE ACCOUNTED FOR after the war. After adjusting for those that escaped or died of natural causes, you have a POPULATION DROP of about 6 million people.

In Ukraine by 1939 you have a HIGHER population. Faminologists calculate by assuming that the birthrate in 1926 stayed constant the entire time and then make a projection for 1939 based on that assumed birthrate despite plenty of issues that lowered that birthrate post-1926. Furthermore, reclassifying the Kuban Cossacks as "Russian" instead of Ukrainian technically LOWERED the "Ukrainian" population by a significant amount, yet these people weren't killed.

Chevan
10-02-2006, 05:03 AM
Oh how fascinating! "I'm not Jewish by origin" yet I'm a Jew? Is this some sort of apologist backpedaling for your putrid anti-Semitic statements? BTW, Russians like you were the first to collaborate with the Nazis....

Russians like my grandfather were who save the world wrom the Nazism.
And it's seems for me that your ancestors even didn't know what the fight with fascists.


... I have a new genuine empathy for the Jews that suffer persecution at the hands of stupid people. Maybe they have a point.
May be they have a problems. To blame all the world in "silence" ...



Well, my rants were not really anti-Israeli as much as anti-Zionist. Why don't you make some "anti-Israeli" comments about how they are how they are "hook-nosed bastards that control the media and banking?":)

You make a big mistake.
Israel politic is not the Zionosm ( Or do you prefered to talk by the president of Iran languages).
It just the resault of survival in enemy's environment.(althout Israel look like agressor at the last time)
But in Israel the jews have all the right to make the "hard" actions for defence its state. I too much know today what's islamic extremists.
What's the real Zeonosm - this lie about 6 million victims of Holocaust.
This allow the jews:
1. To make the money (compensations)
2. avoid the critic about aggressive Israel politic.
3. to blame any critic of jewis organisation or the individuals as the "Fascism or the revisionism". (You are as tupical example)
4. To have the psychological advantage in moral as the single "holocaus -people" and blame other nations in moral fault ( silence about Holocaust).




Why do you need me in your corner?
My corner ???
If i could write in english as easy as Jasa , i could write much more.
But honestly thinking , i see that you are uncapable to think, just repeat alien article and "Goodl-sources".

Firefly
10-02-2006, 06:23 AM
Guys, I have absolutely no clue what this Thread is about from reading the posts here. I was going to take the time to split them into diffrent subjects, but I havent a clue where to start.

Maybe we should re-name it 'Rambling in Circles without end about various subjects'?

I'm locking it until a descision about its future can be reached.

As always PM either me or another Mod if you have any problem with this.

Cheers.......

Nickdfresh
10-21-2006, 12:17 AM
WHICH NKVD documents? I already told the little boy that you can't just say "NKVD documents" to support any old claim.

Try here: http://www.sbu.gov.ua/sbu/control/uk/index


The population deficits in Ukraine reflect a lowering of the BIRTHRATE as well as census recalculations that changed the nationality of people(e.g. mixed marriage).

Or a famine?


This is based on the PRO-GENOCIDE method of calculating deaths by using the birthrate in 1926 and then when looking at the population in 1939 they claim that the difference between their projection and the actual population in 1939 is the number of people that died. In other words, they count as "dead" many people that simply weren't born for a number of reasons.

Really, what are you basing this on? Can I have some documentation for this?


By contrast the method for calculating the deaths in the Holocaust is far simpler and shows a population LOSS. Using the Nazi estimate of 11 million Jews under the areas they controlled, research showed that about 6 or more million of those COULD NOT BE ACCOUNTED FOR after the war. After adjusting for those that escaped or died of natural causes, you have a POPULATION DROP of about 6 million people.

Actually, it wasn't that simple. There were significant oral histories of survivors that could be verifiably traced to places of origins, families, and the like. Had the Nazis won WWII, they simply would have purged documents that directly related to the day-to-day running of the Holocaust and locked any significant historical record of Judaism of ever existing; in essence, they would have undoubtedly employed a line of reasoning very similar to the ones you have in this thread. In fact, during the minutes of Wannsee meeting, the Nazis discussed this very aspect of semantic denial...


In Ukraine by 1939 you have a HIGHER population. Faminologists calculate by assuming that the birthrate in 1926 stayed constant the entire time and then make a projection for 1939 based on that assumed birthrate despite plenty of issues that lowered that birthrate post-1926. Furthermore, reclassifying the Kuban Cossacks as "Russian" instead of Ukrainian technically LOWERED the "Ukrainian" population by a significant amount, yet these people weren't killed.

Again, do you have actual documentation for this, or are you simply quoting from a book that was written with an almost admittedly fraudulent purpose of Cold War deception and apologist agenda?

Nice "Strawman" argument by the way.:)

Jasa
10-23-2006, 07:55 AM
Still like losing arguments don't you. Here's the problem. I read your sources, you still don't want to read mine. So you lose. You can't just take some article written after the fact and then say "this debunks" something that you never read.

You have already demonstrated that you will consider anything that doesn't support your view to be "Cold War" propaganda. You are so ignorant about the topic, that you ask for DOCUMENTATION for something that is central to your claim. You try to lecture me about Ukrainian history and the famine and yet didn't even know about the methodology USED by those who repackaged the famine in the 80s like Mace and Conquest? What the hell is wrong with you?

Next time I think you should go into some medical forum and start telling qualified doctors your theories on medicine. If someone suggests a source that disagrees with your theories, simply use Google to find some article that says their source is wrong, and be done with it. No need to actually READ the source to verify that the criticism is true.

Nickdfresh
10-23-2006, 11:53 AM
Still like losing arguments don't you. Here's the problem. I read your sources, you still don't want to read mine. So you lose. You can't just take some article written after the fact and then say "this debunks" something that you never read.

LOL I "lost" the argument? Is that why you conspicuously avoided any thread regarding recent news reports of the Ukrainian (fascist) gov't trying to get the Holomador acknowledged, and the Russian gov't trying to pressure the international community to stop said acknowledgement?

That's pretty funny, and since your 'source' is an uneducated dead Canadian admitted-communist whose book has been discredited by actual Russo-Ukrainian scholars at accredited universities. A man (Tottle) whose sole journalistic scholarship was to edit a third-rate "workers" journal for a fourth rate 'union.' Also a man that had no discernible training to be a journalist or a researcher whatsoever, and wrote articles often mindlessly defending Soviet interests such as "An End to Anticommunism" during the 1980s, or something like that...
.

Try again Pumpkin, only reality can stop you now.:)


You have already demonstrated that you will consider anything that doesn't support your view to be "Cold War" propaganda.

Oh pot tea-kettle sunshine, in fact Tottle admits his agenda is to basically to get American conservatives to stop using the "Holomador" as anti-Soviet propaganda. And you are the one that accused me of being the "Cold Warrior" even though I'm a pretty liberal-progressive...

I also like the way he puts a Swastika over a painting of famine victims, as if they deserved to be starved to death because they are "fascists," very nice. BTW, you've also left out certain pertinent facts, like Tottle's book is a cause celeb on Stalinist apologist sites that are also hosted in western countries.


You are so ignorant about the topic, that you ask for DOCUMENTATION for something that is central to your claim.

Again, I'll just repeat it since you clearly ignore these facts regarding your supposed scholarship that you quickly could have gleaned while reading one of half-a-dozen pro-Communist message boards. And the reason why it is on the internet (a communist site called "Rational Revolution" LOL) is that it was largely removed from university bookshelves because it's scholarship was absolutely horrid & second rate at best, and overt lies of omission and well, lies at worst. No one will touch it, much like David Irving's work, since they both have the same apologist intent of ignoring key facts and presenting a patently dishonest argument.

And the claim is not mine, it is YOUR claim since you're the one making it?

That's pretty funny, and since your 'source' is an uneducated dead Canadian admitted-communist whose book has been discredited by actual Russo-Ukrainian scholars at accredited universities. A man (Tottle) whose sole journalistic scholarship was to edit a third-rate "workers" journal for a fourth rate 'union.' Also a man that had no discernible training to be a journalist or a researcher whatsoever, and wrote articles often mindlessly defending Soviet interests such as "An End to Anticommunism" or something like that...


You try to lecture me about Ukrainian history and the famine and yet didn't even know about the methodology USED by those who repackaged the famine in the 80s like Mace and Conquest? What the hell is wrong with you?

Here, I'll repeat myself again since you seem a tad "slow":

That's pretty funny, and since your 'source' is an uneducated dead Canadian admitted-communist whose book has been discredited by actual Russo-Ukrainian scholars at accredited universities. A man (Tottle) whose sole journalistic scholarship was to edit a third-rate "workers" journal for a fourth rate 'union.' Also a man that had no discernible training to be a journalist or a researcher whatsoever, and wrote articles often mindlessly defending Soviet interests such as "An End to Anticommunism" (or something like that) during the 1980s...


Next time I think you should go into some medical forum and start telling qualified doctors your theories on medicine. If someone suggests a source that disagrees with your theories, simply use Google to find some article that says their source is wrong, and be done with it. No need to actually READ the source to verify that the criticism is true.

LOL Do not insult doctors with your "scholarship." BTW, again, your arguments are something akin to a Nazi German stating that no one can discuss the Holocaust, because they do not know enough about German history of geography. Good one! Try again pookey, and we'll just ignore how you've actually provided no information that again, one could not have gleaned from reading threads at a pro-Soviet message board.

And doctors do not get their sources from the likes of:

...your 'source' is an uneducated dead Canadian admitted-communist whose book has been discredited by actual Russo-Ukrainian scholars at accredited universities. A man (Tottle) whose sole journalistic scholarship was to edit a third-rate "workers" journal for a fourth rate 'union.' Also a man that had no discernible training to be a journalist or a researcher whatsoever, and wrote articles often mindlessly defending Soviet interests such as "An End to Anticommunism" (or something like that) during the 1980s...

I will no more take the time to read tottle's book than I will to read David Irving's utter shit...

Nickdfresh
10-23-2006, 11:56 AM
When you're done pissing on the graves of dead Ukrainians, and covering famine victims with a swastika, let me know JASA...

Nickdfresh
10-23-2006, 12:19 PM
BTW, here's Tottle's extensive Ukrainian specialty listed...nowhere on his official biography in the book:


ABOUT THE AUTHOR: Born in Quebec, Douglas Tottle has spent most of his life in Western Canada. Tottle has worked as a photographer and a photo-lab technician, fine artist, underground miner, and as a steelworker. An active trade unionist, Tottle edited the United Steelworkers journal "The Challenger" from 1975 to 1985, during the time the paper received over 20 international and Canadian journalism awards. Tottle has also worked as a labor history researcher, and as an organizer. During the 1970s he assisted the organizing drive of Chicano farmworkers in California and worked with Native Indian farmworkers in Manitoba. Tottle has written for various Canadian and U.S. periodicals, magazines, and labor journals. [from page at the beginning of the book]

LOL@: http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?t=28616