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View Full Version : (what if series)Hitler use a better method of invading Britain



FW-190 Pilot
09-20-2006, 04:41 AM
I really think its all about intelliegence, how can hitler shifted his military target from military airfield to civilian target, so that the allies can have time to rebuild its air force? how can there be no air and sea operation like they have suceed in both france and poland? They really need a longer plan. This should be done immdiately after hitler took power.

1935
First, recruit German who can also speak english with no problem, give them a lot of money so that they dont have worries about their families. Send them to England to apply for jobs like constructing military planes, ships. while they are working on that, they should really patrol around the country and draw a map for the invasion force. (When the Japanese were planning to attack china, they have simiular plan to send spy to china and drew them the maps that the japanese needs, the maps are so detail that they have included a fountain from a small home's backyard.)

1936
Build mock up building of important british fort or important strategic places where German soldiers can practice attacking them.

1941
After the victory in France, the German would begin their next invasion in England. the war would start like the oringal timeline where the air force will continue bomb the military air field and not switch to the civilians, the objective of this is to put Allied plane out of action and more importantly is that if the allied airforce are no longer a threat to the german air force, it is much safer for the JU-87 aircraft to attack British ships and convoy

The next step is that the entire invasion air force will be divided into five parts.
Army A, B, C would have fighters and bombers attached with gliders. Their objective is to have the fighters protecting the bombers and gliders to get across Britain and land on the east side of England, dummies would also to release to give a false perception of an overwhelming soldiers attacking England's position. their actions should be very fast and decisive that the important strategic point should be taken before more British troops arrived. to reach this objective, extra external oil fuel must be equipped on every single plane from army A-C, and then abandon it when they are used up. this should happen in 3-4 am so that British might respond slower. The soldier it involve in army A-C should not be over 200 men.

If army A-C has done their job in about 9-10, Army D, E would consists of JU-87 protected by FW-190 and BF-109. JU-87 would not be throwing bombs, but instead they should put poison gas and create more fear to the British people, not only that, the British government would need to divde her resource on helping the civilian and thus kind of slow down their progress. One or two fighters will be armed with paint bomb, where the bomb will be exploded in mid-air. this is the signal to the German workers who works in the British factories to do their job and attempt to destroy british war factories, changing road signs to confuse people and also if possible some bridges connect to the east side of the country to prevent more relieve troops to attack German troops in the east side.

the last is to divide the land troops into three parts, where the Nazi will be taking all the ship it avaliable to land on British's south, where most of the British sea force is on the north so it shouldnt be much problem if the transports can be efficient. their burning issue is to invade the east side of england and relieve army A-C. Slowly when tanks are avaliable, they advance to the north part of the country and the whole operation is a complete sucuess! or is it?

Anti
09-20-2006, 07:09 AM
I don't know if this could be done. The Luftwaffe lost a great deal of their airborne forces and Ju-52 transport planes to the Dutch Airforce and Dutch Flak. Very few bombers and fighters were shot down however. So the idea of using Airborne Forces to invade Britain probably wasn't possible. The main thrust would therefore have to be done bij invading the 'old fashioned' way; a marine invasion. Unless, the Germans would also use bombers to deploy parachute troops. A great marine operation would probably also fail because the Germans lacked a sufficient number of transport vessels (in real life they even resorted to modified river boats). But that could also be changed if, like your example, they took more time to prepare themselves to carry out such an operation.

If the British reacted quickly however, i fear a small glider force of 200 soldiers tops would not be able to hold any objectives. Compare the number of British forces trying to hold the Arnhem roadway bridge in Operation Market Garden. They failed partially because the quick German response.

Panzerknacker
09-20-2006, 10:00 AM
They sure would need some kind of aerial heavt transport due the powerful Royal Navy wich make any maritimal assault unaceptable in terms of losses.

The Messerchmit Me-321 or 323 were the planes right for the task, but these was not available until 1941.

Using those I thik that the invation was feasible ,it could work.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/7138/me32105ng2.jpg

Man of Stoat
09-20-2006, 10:49 AM
Please tell me this thread is a wah?

Or is it yet another one of fw190's scenarios involving resources the Germans don't have and ignoring significant resources that the Brits do have? Two words: radar, navy.

pdf27
09-20-2006, 02:54 PM
I do like the bit where a bunch of German passport holders with supposedly excellent English just happen to get jobs at top secret defence companies ;)

Besides, some of the ideas are hillarious. Dropping dummies when you're airlift limited and may as well drop soldiers. Dropping gas rather than HE on a dug in, defending force when you're attacking from the air. Launching an airbourne invasion against a major country when your aviation industry is orders of magnitude too small for the task.
Oh, and finally, concentrating on the UK just in time for Joe Stalin to invade Poland. Classic one that !

Firefly
09-20-2006, 04:19 PM
Undoubtedly if the Germans had attacked the problem, much like in the much touted book the Foresight War [Recommended by me by the way as I have now read it] they could have caused the UK much more problems.

However, the simplest way to defeat Britian is at Dunkirk in 1940, take away the Army and Hitler has a much greater bargaining position. The UK would probably settle for peace and agree to withdraw from further conflict.

That and instead of building useless battleships, build more Subs.

Man of Stoat
09-20-2006, 04:28 PM
In all seriousness, read the following thread: http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=21592/highlight=sealion.html

This one is also related: http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=44964/highlight=sealion.html

Back on topic, did these German passport holders have particularly effective top-secret fake moustaches which could block British radar to enable the German jets to drop their paratroopers? The high explosive underpants will have had a huge impact on clothing retail, devastating the British economy and damaging many retail outlets. Meanwhile, by diverting all resources from sewing machine research, the Germans will be able to develop laser powered landing craft which can cross the Channel in 35 seconds, solving their logistical problems. During this project, a tank teleportation device will accidentally have been invented, enabling the mark 96 tank to suddenly appear on the battlefield, taking the Brits completely by surprise. The crews will however have to fight naked since the teleportation will not work on clothing.

So yes, of course, completely feasible...

Firefly
09-20-2006, 05:53 PM
Ah Mr Stoat, you bring so much to this forum and yet you balance this with your totally serious approach to everything.

I dont mind the what if's. If you do mind them, maybe you should just ignore them?

Mind you, some are more fancifull than others.

On balance though, I for one am gratefull for your contributions in your areas of expertise although I still think that Jun 1940 is when Germany lost the war.

FW-190 Pilot
09-20-2006, 09:03 PM
Anyways, the tactics i talk about is not completely new, it has been done in Eban Emael where less than 200 soldiers has trapped over 1200 enemy soldiers in fort until relieve has come, also to throw dummies to create an overwhelming perception has also been used and been very sucessful.


and in the war against Poland, German SS troops has disguised as Polish railroad workers, construction workers to destroy polish bridge and railroad system, so that is not completely new too and it has work very well.

Man of Stoat
09-21-2006, 03:33 AM
A country is not the same as a fort, and in any case the British defence was not based around forts in the way the Belgian defence was.

One major problem in your thinking: the Germans did not have any landing craft worth the name.

Seriously, read the threads on the two links posted above.

Firefly -- I have no problem with "what ifs" if they even have a modicum of plausibility.

FW-190 Pilot
09-21-2006, 03:40 AM
ok, thanks for the link anyways.

Timbo in Oz
09-21-2006, 10:31 AM
Does anyone elase see aparallel here with all the wishful thinking along the
" the SOWF will raaaaase agin ! " stuff so coomon among US Civil war fora troglodytes!

;-)!

Nickdfresh
09-21-2006, 04:13 PM
Please tell me this thread is a wah?

Or is it yet another one of fw190's scenarios involving resources the Germans don't have and ignoring significant resources that the Brits do have? Two words: radar, navy.


Or one historical parallel: Crete!

The German airborne forces there suffered heavy casualties on a small island that was successfully isolated. Whatever German glider troops and paratroopers, assuming they got through fighter command, trying to take and secure almost an entire nation would have been quickly cut off and destroyed piece meal before the Germans Kriegsmarine would have had a secure port.

Jim
09-24-2006, 10:42 PM
The battle of Britain would have been won if Hitler didn't divert all aircraft too one front if he'd conyinued use of his first tactic Britains air force would have been wiped out.

FW-190 Pilot
09-25-2006, 03:23 AM
I hope this is not a stupid quetion, but if they are isolated, then whats the hurry to attack?

Would it be smarter to just surround them and cut them from any food or water. Thus they have to choose either surrender or starve to death.

pdf27
09-25-2006, 01:17 PM
I hope this is not a stupid quetion, but if they are isolated, then whats the hurry to attack?
Nope, it's a thoroughly sensible question. The reason for doing so is that Hitler's ultimate goal was always war with the Soviet Union, and there is quite a lot of evidence that Stalin was planning much the same thing. The Red army of the time was deeply (almost fatally) weakened by the great purges of the 1930s when the majority of competent officers were shot. This really showed up in the chronically bad leadership they got in the early stages of Barbarossa. It was only when they got competent leadership back again (Rokossovsky for instance was imprisoned during the purges, only just being released in time for Russia to enter WW2) and the Germans reached the limit of their logistics that the Russians stopped them. Had they waited another year, it is very doubtful that they would have got anywhere near Moscow.

Digger
09-26-2006, 07:31 PM
Hi all,

Germany could not have defeated Britain without air superiority and frankly with the forces they had it was always going to be a difficult task.

For any 'what if' scenario of the conquest of Britain, the Luftwaffe would have to have been much larger and consist of a much higher proportion of fighters. Once air superiority is gained than you can debate any 'what if' scenario.

Without air superiority forget it.

Regards to all
Digger.

Twitch1
09-27-2006, 02:01 PM
If Hitler had been fixated on invading GB in the mid-1930s there is no doubt that German industry could NOT have followed through by 1941 with the proper vehicles and equipment considering the strides it made in other areas of manufacture.

pdf27
09-27-2006, 02:51 PM
If Hitler had been fixated on invading GB in the mid-1930s there is no doubt that German industry could NOT have followed through by 1941 with the proper vehicles and equipment considering the strides it made in other areas of manufacture.
Ummm... there's no really polite way of saying this, but exactly what experience do you have of production engineering and the like?
The German industrial facilities did not match what they required for an invasion of the UK, hence 1 year is nowhere near enough time to build up the required resources. Given the naval requirements, a decade is more like it. Even with the incomparably greater resources of the United States on the job, it took the western allies nearly 4 years to assemble the shipping needed for a successful invasion against far weaker opposition than the Germans would have encountered in 1941.

FW-190 Pilot
09-28-2006, 04:19 AM
thanks for the information, pdf27

Firefly
09-28-2006, 08:00 AM
If Hitler had been fixated on invading GB in the mid-1930s there is no doubt that German industry could NOT have followed through by 1941 with the proper vehicles and equipment considering the strides it made in other areas of manufacture.

This is posssible if they had started with the plan in 1933. But wouldnt this have encountered the same problem that the German Navy in WW1 had? What I mean is that if Germany started to build a huge invasion fleet the UK would have built a larger Invasion destruction fleet. While Germany was perhaps the master of the Blitzkreig the UK was in the 1930's still the master of the North Sea and Channel.

pdf27
09-28-2006, 02:46 PM
The other issue is that had they started building what was obviously an invasion fleet aimed at the UK in the learly 1930s (and there really is nothing else they could do with one) there is no way on earth appeasement would have gone forward as it did in reality. Germany was a military pygmy at the time, and would have been stopped very easily.

Nickdfresh
09-28-2006, 03:02 PM
Amphibious assault operations are one of the most complex in warfare requiring years of experience in order for success. That's why countries like the U.S., U.K., France, and Russia have separate Marines or Naval Infantry.

Germany had nothing on the order of such, and no experience in seaborne landings. Good luck at "Operation Sealion."

Digger
09-28-2006, 06:13 PM
G'day,

pdf27 rightly pointed out the limitations on German industry, so when debating 'what if' scenarios this factor has to be taken into consideration.

Germany went to war in 1939, ill prepared, with a civilian economy and pretty much peace time industrial footing. Germany also suffered a dearth of strategic natural resources, along with a logistic system that would struggle throughout the war.

In military terms, as I said on my previous post, the only way Germany could successfully take Britain is by acheiving air superiority, and frankly the Luftwaffe was too small to acheive this and lacked fighter numbers to swamp the defenders.

To have the necessary force to swamp the RAF, the Luftwaffe could only be expanded to such a size with massive changes to the German war industry.

Regards to all
Digger.

Nickdfresh
09-28-2006, 09:31 PM
G'day,

pdf27 rightly pointed out the limitations on German industry, so when debating 'what if' scenarios this factor has to be taken into consideration.

Germany went to war in 1939, ill prepared, with a civilian economy and pretty much peace time industrial footing. Germany also suffered a dearth of strategic natural resources, along with a logistic system that would struggle throughout the war.

In military terms, as I said on my previous post, the only way Germany could successfully take Britain is by acheiving air superiority, and frankly the Luftwaffe was too small to acheive this and lacked fighter numbers to swamp the defenders.

To have the necessary force to swamp the RAF, the Luftwaffe could only be expanded to such a size with massive changes to the German war industry.

Regards to all
Digger.



Exactly, people love to celebrate the German expertise and their "sexy" panzers which were often top notch machines. But they also conveniently forget that for every picture of Tiger 1 or a Panther, there are dozens of horse-drawn carts and broken down captured French trucks transporting supplies which was their Achilles heal.

Man of Stoat
09-29-2006, 03:10 AM
There was also almost no consideration given by anyone to amphibious assaults against defended coasts in the interwar period, due to the British failure in the Dardanelles in World War I.

Digger
09-29-2006, 07:40 PM
Nickdfresh has hit the nail on the head. While there is much focus on the sharp end of German weaponary, the majority of the army struggled with equipment, especially transport. It's easy to forget for most of the German army movement was dependant on foot or horse drawn vehicle.

One officer lamented that the most common form of transport on the Eastern front was the Russian 'Panje' horse drawn wagon.

Regards to all,
Digger.

stephen
10-05-2006, 03:06 AM
the radar sites should have been suppresed along with the fighters and bomers

stephen
10-05-2006, 03:20 AM
Dont forget that the german paratroopers were not new which is not a good thing.The feilds in briton were full of poles just waiting for the paratroopers.The next biggest problem is for the germans to get their objectives quikly they would have to land close to their objectives which means close to the enemy,and it takes time to organise the paras after landing(gathering guns and equipment).So they are very vulnarable for a time and all of this is if they are droped in the right place.out of all the para drops in world war two how many were droped in the right place in the dark.

Nickdfresh
10-05-2006, 07:08 PM
I was watching the History Channel yesterday (on the Chunnel), and it seems the Germans actually considered putting airtight tanks into the water, making them buoyant and outfitting them with snorkels and somehow getting them to drive across the channel as submarines!:shock:

Of course even the Germans thought this was just stupid. The tanks would haven't have been able to drive once they made contact with the undersea bed as they closed in on shore. And the tankers probably weren't wild about this either, as if the tanks flooded, they would have to let them fill up with water before they could open the hatches and escape, to equalize pressure.

And I suppose coordinating all this with landing infantry would have been very difficult even if the tanks could get ashore...

Digger
10-05-2006, 07:40 PM
G'day,

Nickdfresh rightly points out one of the more bizarre ideas the Germans were looking at. From memory some of the trials were carried out using Panzer III tanks.

This coupled with the largely unworkable and dangerous fleet of towed barges, I really wonder how serious was Sealion. With what they had avaible to them for the operation, it would have been the largest suicide mission in history.

Regards to all,
Digger.