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Chevan
08-26-2006, 06:04 AM
I find in net some interesting photo of modern worshippers of Adolf Hitler.
This is not similar to the simple "masquerade". this is the group of young americans, which united to the Nazi idea.
http://usatruth.by.ru/pics2/fashyzm9.jpg
do someone wants to call and to ask these guys?
http://usatruth.by.ru/c4.files/img_0030_1_1_700.jpg
http://usatruth.by.ru/c4.files/imag0041.jpg
http://usatruth.by.ru/c4.files/dscf0042_0020a.jpg
This looks like mockery above hundreds of thousand American soldiers of those was killed in the war against the fascism.
May i ask our american friends what's this.

Lancer44
08-26-2006, 08:01 AM
Hi Chevan,

Just very quick search in Googles yielded:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/08/14/MNGUSE7N2D1.DTL

http://www.interethnic.org/EngNews/120506_5.html

http://www.greatestjournal.com/users/avrom/2645.html

http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/article/0,13005,901040809-674718,00.html

http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/pages/DefendRussianAntiFascists.php

http://english.pravda.ru/accidents/21/96/383/13166_murder.html

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1304096,00.html

http://www.rickross.com/reference/skinheads/skinheads49.html

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0123/p07s02-woeu.html

http://www.national-student.co.uk/international_news/Story%20African%20student%20stabbed%20by%20skinhea ds.htm


So dear Chevan, are you kidding? Mate, this problem is common worldwide.

What personally worry me is that paying any attention to those extreme groups society is promoting them, vindicating them and actually making them visible and important.

Cheers,

Lancer44

cpl condor
08-26-2006, 09:22 AM
Hi, guys, sorry, but in the Patagonia I have not so much time.
I'm reading a Tom Clancy's book, "Op-center III" and explaind with
some detail some groups of neo-nazism in America. And in Europe too.
I know it is ficction, but it have a lot elements of the reality.
That Pics remember me the motion picture "The Blues Brothers".

Chevan
08-26-2006, 09:38 AM
Hi Chevan,

Just very quick search in Googles yielded:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/08/14/MNGUSE7N2D1.DTL

http://www.interethnic.org/EngNews/120506_5.html

http://www.greatestjournal.com/users/avrom/2645.html

http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/article/0,13005,901040809-674718,00.html

http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/pages/DefendRussianAntiFascists.php

http://english.pravda.ru/accidents/21/96/383/13166_murder.html

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1304096,00.html

http://www.rickross.com/reference/skinheads/skinheads49.html

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0123/p07s02-woeu.html

http://www.national-student.co.uk/international_news/Story%20African%20student%20stabbed%20by%20skinhea ds.htm


So dear Chevan, are you kidding? Mate, this problem is common worldwide.

What personally worry me is that paying any attention to those extreme groups society is promoting them, vindicating them and actually making them visible and important.

Cheers,

Lancer44
Hi Lancer.
Nice to meet you are here ;)
Your links about skinheads. They are in any country.
Yes, i aggree with you skinheads - this is common problem.
But do not confuse young bandit - skinheads with completely adult 30-60 y. old people which interestingly spend time dressing on the Nazi form and with the flags. Skinheads do not arrange public processions along the municipal streets.
I wrote about National Socialists party
They has its own official site :http://www.nsm88.com/index2.html
In Russia there is same party also : RNU - Russian National Unity.
http://www.rnu-patriot.narod.ru/resource/slav_ros.jpg
Also are extremely left party: the National- Bolsheviks
http://www.pora-news.ru/foto-pora-9may-5.JPG

Both party are practically illegal today.
Its leaders have some problems with law.
This extremists parties appeared after perestroika. Russian nationalists (Left and right) took an example from their western comrades.


What personally worry me is that paying any attention to those extreme groups society is promoting them, vindicating them and actually making them visible and important

Lancer , do you want to say better not to note them at all ?
On your view is this normal situation?
Better nothing to do when people in the Nazi uniform walk along the streets?

Nickdfresh
08-26-2006, 10:02 AM
I find in net some interesting photo of modern worshippers of Adolf Hitler.
This is not similar to the simple "masquerade". this is the group of young americans, which united to the Nazi idea.
...
http://usatruth.by.ru/c4.files/dscf0042_0020a.jpg
This looks like mockery above hundreds of thousand American soldiers of those was killed in the war against the fascism.
May i ask our american friends what's this.

Well Chevan, I'll try to answer as best I can. I must say, as Lancer44 pointed out, I do object to this being portrayed as a uniquely "American" problem. Neo-Nazis and Neo-Fascists have been problematic since the end of WWII, by both a continuing underground sympathetic strain centered in German (although the FRG has legislated many anti-Nazi laws in order to insure they remain politically marginalized), Spain, and much of South & Central America, the legacy never really went away totally.

As for the (un)American movement, it actually began in the 1950's under the revisionist leadership of George Lincoln Rockwell, who was, ironically, a WWII vet!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Lincoln_Rockwell

The c*** was murdered by one of his own "Nazi brethren" after an argument over the superiority/inferiority of light skinned Nazis vs. darker skinned Euro Nazis :lol:

However, to cut this short, this led to a second American Nazi-party leader, Frank Collin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Collin), that is famed for the attempted 'march on Skokie (http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/strwhe.html),' a mostly Jewish suburb of Chicago, IL in 1979. Collin was later charged with molesting young boys (sensing a theme here?;)) in 1980.

American Nazis are indeed traitors, not only because they spit on the grave of American War Veterans, but because most reportedly celebrated after the 9/11 tragedy, and seem to be in cahoots with Islamic extremists due to their rancid hate for Jews and mutual, faulty conspiratorial view of the world. Of course, like any country, we've had our fascists terrorists such as the Klu Klux Klan and many other offshoots. The greatest danger is actually the fragmentation of the movement into terror cells such as "The Order (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Brotherhood)" as advocated by William Luther Pierce (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Luther_Pierce), the author of "The Turner Diaries," a novel that advocates "race war" and terror, and ultimately influenced Timothy McVeigh to bomb and murder his fellow Americans in Oklahoma.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/02/Peirce2.jpg

That's as far as I want to go with this.

Nickdfresh
08-26-2006, 10:13 AM
Hi Lancer.
Nice to meet you are here ;)
Your links about skinheads. They are in any country.
Yes, i aggree with you skinheads - this is common problem.
But do not confuse young bandit - skinheads with completely adult 30-60 y. old people which interestingly spend time dressing on the Nazi form and with the flags. Skinheads do not arrange public processions along the municipal streets.

So what's the difference whether they wear a uniform mimicking WWII SS troopers, or if they wear boots and black leather jackets??? The ideas, the core values of violence and myopic views are the same!



I wrote about National Socialists party
They has its own official site :http://www.nsm88.com/index2.html
In Russia there is same party also : RNU - Russian National Unity.
http://www.rnu-patriot.narod.ru/resource/slav_ros.jpg
Also are extremely left party: the National- Bolsheviks
http://www.pora-news.ru/foto-pora-9may-5.JPG

Both party are practically illegal today.
Its leaders have some problems with law.
This extremists parties appeared after perestroika. Russian nationalists (Left and right) took an example from their western comrades.

You fail to mention that Russia has a problem with skin head youth attacking people in Moscow because they're gay, possibly Jewish, or have dark skin. Is this less of a problem than idiots that put on uniforms on the weekend?

http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/04/18/russianskinheads.shtml


Lancer , do you want to say better not to note them at all ?
On your view is this normal situation?
Better nothing to do when people in the Nazi uniform walk along the streets?

It's an issue of freedom of speech. The US has had fifth columnist Nazis and fascist sympathizers since prior to WWII ("The Bundes League" I think). We rounded them up if necessary. It's the extreme-rightists that are in underground terror cells that I worry about.

Sneaksie
08-27-2006, 02:04 AM
You fail to mention that Russia has a problem with skin head youth attacking people in Moscow because they're gay, possibly Jewish, or have dark skin. Is this less of a problem than idiots that put on uniforms on the weekend?
Much less problem. Skins are a bunch of youth, actually most of them into it not because of some racial theories but because of fighting. Some boys are football fans just for sake of fighting another club's fans (and they're called skins too). To 'attacking people because gay' i suppose you refer to Moscow fiasco gay parade:mrgreen: If you look at photos, there were no skins there, mostly ordinary looking people in military style outfit.
So there is major difference between skins and similar youth groups and actual Nazi movement - skins have zero political capabilities or influences. What i do not understand - how it can be that in US Nazi are legal party?

Cuts
08-27-2006, 05:08 AM
What i do not understand - how it can be that in US Nazi are legal party?

It's an issue of freedom of speech.
Exactly.

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - EB Hall

Lancer44
08-27-2006, 05:34 AM
Exactly.

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - EB Hall

I just want to add a little bit - ignore them, because any signs that you are interested, amused, enraged, is what they are waiting for!

They do not want you to be symphatetic - they need enemies to grow - again ignore them.

An finally I have one biiiiiiiiiiig grudge towards police forces around the world - if nazis, skinheads and other Hitler's followers jump up and have a violent gathering, which need police riot squads intervention... usually this intervention is hopeless. Same tactic towards illegal guys, lesbians and same hopeless tactic against neo-nazis.

All around the world except France. This frog-eaters guys know how to use they truncheons right! Full stop!

I despise communist system, I hated it living in Poland, but now I can admire the beating skills of Polish ZOMO and Russian OMON - they knew how to beat, they actions on the streets were like orchestrated concerts.
They knew exactly how to cause maximum pain without any damage.

Why nowadays is different and neo-nazis confronting police in any country are just their own mob "heroes"?

Cheers,

Lancer44

Chevan
08-27-2006, 09:10 AM
Well Chevan, I'll try to answer as best I can. I must say, as Lancer44 pointed out, I do object to this being portrayed as a uniquely "American" problem. Neo-Nazis and Neo-Fascists have been problematic since the end of WWII, by both a continuing underground sympathetic strain centered in German (although the FRG has legislated many anti-Nazi laws in order to insure they remain politically marginalized), Spain, and much of South & Central America, the legacy never really went away totally.

As for the (un)American movement, it actually began in the 1950's under the revisionist leadership of George Lincoln Rockwell, who was, ironically, a WWII vet!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Lincoln_Rockwell

The **** was murdered by one of his own "Nazi brethren" after an argument over the superiority/inferiority of light skinned Nazis vs. darker skinned Euro Nazis :lol:

However, to cut this short, this led to a second American Nazi-party leader, Frank Collin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Collin), that is famed for the attempted 'march on Skokie (http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/strwhe.html),' a mostly Jewish suburb of Chicago, IL in 1979. Collin was later charged with molesting young boys (sensing a theme here?;)) in 1980.

American Nazis are indeed traitors, not only because they spit on the grave of American War Veterans, but because most reportedly celebrated after the 9/11 tragedy, and seem to be in cahoots with Islamic extremists due to their rancid hate for Jews and mutual, faulty conspiratorial view of the world. Of course, like any country, we've had our fascists terrorists such as the Klu Klux Klan and many other offshoots. The greatest danger is actually the fragmentation of the movement into terror cells such as "The Order (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Brotherhood)" as advocated by William Luther Pierce (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Luther_Pierce), the author of "The Turner Diaries," a novel that advocates "race war" and terror, and ultimately influenced Timothy McVeigh to bomb and murder his fellow Americans in Oklahoma.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/02/Peirce2.jpg

That's as far as I want to go with this.
Hi Nick
Thanks for the interesting information.
But i am not sure that Anerican National-Socialists is in cahoots with Islamic extremists.
Yes, they have some mutual particular interests. But if you will see its party program you could find enormous difference.
I see on tv scene from Spain when peoples openly raised hands in the Hitler greeting in sentral square of Madrid.

Cheers

Kovalski
08-27-2006, 09:26 AM
I see on tv scene from Spain when peoples openly raised hands in the Hitler greeting in sentral square of Madrid.
Cheers

It wasn't "Hitler greeting" but fascist gesture made by Gen. Franco's followers.
You shouldn't generalize that every hand risen in such gesture is determing support of Hitler's sick ideas.
In Spain the situation is difficult because as you may know Chevan, there was a civil war were two ideolgies were involved. It still has a influence on some part of society.

Nickdfresh
08-27-2006, 09:58 AM
Much less problem. Skins are a bunch of youth, actually most of them into it not because of some racial theories but because of fighting. Some boys are football fans just for sake of fighting another club's fans (and they're called skins too). To 'attacking people because gay' i suppose you refer to Moscow fiasco gay parade:mrgreen: If you look at photos, there were no skins there, mostly ordinary looking people in military style outfit.

Actually, I'm referring to news reports from CBS News' "60Minutes" that they did on the rise of right wing Russian militias, not just skinheads I might add. It looked as if these people were organized paramilitary gangs with access to firearms. And that they were being ignored by the Russian Gov't, because they tacitly supported their aims. One guy, with the backing of his gang, seemed to do nothing but martial arts and physical training so be could attack foreigners. I assume they had a small time organized crime or drug network to support themselves. Fascism is fascism, whether the group calls itself "Nazi" or "Cossack."



So there is major difference between skins and similar youth groups and actual Nazi movement - skins have zero political capabilities or influences.

What?


From: PBS.org (http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/rough/2005/08/murder_in_st_pe.html)
Introduction

This year, Russia is celebrating the 60th anniversary of the defeat of Nazi Germany. The former Soviet Union sacrificed 27 million soldiers and citizens fighting European fascism. The losses far outweighed those of any other nation fighting in World War II, which Russians refer to as the Great Patriotic War. Given the country's extraordinary anti-Nazi history, many Russians find it difficult to understand why neo-Nazism is on the rise in Russia today. An estimated 15,000 to 20,000 skinheads are active in the country, taking direction from a growing number of ultranationalist political parties, some represented in the State Duma, the lower house of Russia's parliament.

(Really? No state ties?)

On Rough Cut this week, we present Kelly Whalen's report from St. Petersburg, Russia. "Murder in St. Petersburg" is the story of Nikolai Mikhailovich Girenko, a prominent defender of minority rights, who was gunned down in his home in the summer of 2004. Girenko, an ethnologist and Africa studies scholar, had dedicated the last 10 years of his life to investigating Russian hate groups that vilify Jews, foreigners and migrants from the former Soviet republics. Girenko's work and expert testimony resulted in the incarceration of dangerous skinhead leaders and other ultranationalist figures -- and his death was mourned by human rights defenders around the world. More than a year later, his murder remains unsolved.

As a fellow of the International Reporting Project at The Johns Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies, Whalen traveled to Russia for five weeks in spring 2005 to investigate Girenko's death and the dangerous forces he opposed.

During her visit, a petition to ban all Jewish organizations, signed by several State Duma deputies, was circulating the country. Radical newspapers were continuing their "Russia for Russians" campaigns and railed against the Jewish oligarchs, condemning them as "the scoundrels and thieves" who plundered the country during the period of perestroika after the collapse of the communist system, while ordinary Russians suffered.

Violent attacks against foreign students and immigrants have become a weekly occurrence. During Whalen's last weekend in St. Petersburg, a city with a rich history of culture and acceptance, Angolan, Bangladeshi and Chinese students were attacked in separate incidents. One student was sent to the hospital with head injuries and knife wounds.

But Whalen also found a growing public resistance to this hate and intolerance. Migrant communities, foreign students, activists and government representatives are beginning to join forces. And some top-level officials are publicly calling for changes in law enforcement to help deal with the problem.

In this report, you will meet neo-Nazi gangs of skinheads as well as far-right party ideologues, some of whom were questioned by police about Girenko's murder. One ultranationalist tells Whalen, "We consciously stir up this hatred...because it's like a weapon. Blood for blood. I have always said that." You will also meet colleagues and supporters of Girenko, people who remember a man who worked courageously and tirelessly against racism and dangerous forms of nationalism.

A group that is essentially terrorist has no influence or political capability? Interesting.



What i do not understand - how it can be that in US Nazi are legal party?

Firstly: I've never seen them on a ballot when I've voted. I've never looked for them, but I believe one cannot vote for them in most of the USA. You can however vote for the American Revolutionary Communist Party or The Socialist Workers Party, I have seen them on the ballot.

Secondly: The American Nazi party has been around for over 50-years, and has only ever been increasingly marginalized as a fringe party. So, obviously, they are no threat to take power anytime soon. Again, the biggest threats were the splinter groups, or "cells," that were more violent. It's funny that some here have used pictures of lunatics in Nazi uniforms and have attempted to portray that as some insidious threat in America. In fact, the Federal gov't has cracked down on rightest violent extremists, especially after the Oklahoma City bombing.

In the US, supposedly or ideally, only violent acts, conspiracies, and other law violations such as illegal firearms/explosives are prosecuted, not speech or retarded uniform wearing.

BTW, I have to find this Russian based skepticism to be quite ironic, since it is your country that is led by a virtual dictator, Vlad "the impaler" Putin, that skirts the rule of law in order to quash dissent and jail political enemies. That is the true threat of fascism, not marginalized people venting their hatred and masking latent insecurity and economic powerlessness.

Perhaps you guys might want to worry about your own gov't?

Chevan
08-27-2006, 10:04 AM
So what's the difference whether they wear a uniform mimicking WWII SS troopers, or if they wear boots and black leather jackets??? The ideas, the core values of violence and myopic views are the same!

The difference is that skinheads are usial young bandit, who use N-S ideology becouse it's very comfortable for violence. They have too small of mind.
The skinheads are just instrument of the tool of someone's policy. But why is creator of modern extremist ideology? Partis like National-Socialists.

I am sure that society must fight such partis with.


You fail to mention that Russia has a problem with skin head youth attacking people in Moscow because they're gay, possibly Jewish, or have dark skin. Is this less of a problem than idiots that put on uniforms on the weekend?

http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/04/18/russianskinheads.shtml

Believe me, in New York's Harlem you will much more problems becouse you white then in Moscow becouse you possibly Jewish, or have dark skin.

Nick, skinheads in Russia is no more then 15 000 at all. Really ,this much less than in Britan or USA but its activity today grow rapidly. This tendency is worry me.
Russian govermant just now realized the danger of this phenomenon and it's try to do something against extremist RNU and Nationa-Bolsheviks (this always astonished me - how can bolsheviks be the nationalists).
But I think the skin problem - this social problem of the young criminality.

Nickdfresh
08-27-2006, 10:10 AM
Hi Nick
Thanks for the interesting information.
But i am not sure that Anerican National-Socialists is in cahoots with Islamic extremists.
Yes, they have some mutual particular interests. But if you will see its party program you could find enormous difference.

You are correct. I misspoke. In fact, some American Neoconservatives ("authoritarian" Republicans that are in fact not really very conservative) have created a myth that "Islamofascists" or Iraqi Intelligence were invovled in the Oklahoma City bombing, which I find to be a self-serving revisionist conspiracy theory. But they do seem to agree with many of Al-Qaida's themes.

I think the key mistake that you make however is to assume that neoNazism/racist fascism is a unified movement in America. In fact, they are deeply splintered.



I see on tv scene from Spain when peoples openly raised hands in the Hitler greeting in sentral square of Madrid.

Cheers

Yes, it is the fascist salute. As stated earlier, some mistake it as a symbol of Nazism, which I think is a bit of an overstatement. Franco won the Civil War, so there is some residual political extreme rightist 'Nationalism' present.

Nickdfresh
08-27-2006, 10:20 AM
The difference is that skinheads are usial young bandit, who use N-S ideology becouse it's very comfortable for violence. They have too small of mind.
The skinheads are just instrument of the tool of someone's policy. But why is creator of modern extremist ideology? Partis like National-Socialists.

I am sure that society must fight such partis with.

I agree. But there seems to be a problem with hate-crimes in Russia. And a gov't that is deeply authoritarian, phrase it or spin it however you want.


Believe me, in New York's Harlem you will much more problems becouse you white then in Moscow becouse you possibly Jewish, or have dark skin.

Not as true anymore, in fact Harlem is increasingly white in some sections. And the truth is that most people could always walk through even the "most dangerous streets" in America without being molested, during the day anyways. And a lot of middle class white drug users are known to go into the inner cities to get drugs and bring them back to the suburbs.


Nick, skinheads in Russia is no more then 15 000 at all. Really ,this much less than in Britan or USA but its activity today grow rapidly. This tendency is worry me.
Russian govermant just now realized the danger of this phenomenon and it's try to do something against extremist RNU and Nationa-Bolsheviks (this always astonished me - how can bolsheviks be the nationalists).
But I think the skin problem - this social problem of the young criminality.

Extremism seems to have a lot to do with economics, and the blaming of the right social problems on the wrong people/imagined conspiratorial political entities. This is a problem with all societies, especially those in transformation.

Chevan
08-27-2006, 10:32 AM
I think the key mistake that you make however is to assume that neoNazism/racist fascism is a unified movement in America. In fact, they are deeply splintered.
.
I aggree with you that there is no United Fiscists organisation. They are really deeply splintered. This mostly extremist groups. But this not mean that we must nothing do aginst.
http://usatruth.by.ru/pics2/fashyzm28.jpg
This american Combat18 illegal organization. It is surprising, but in Russia there is teenage organization with the same name. Even in Krasnodar.
I was in shok when firs time see its movie.

mike M.
08-27-2006, 10:36 AM
This is just free speech being practiced - or do you not have this concept in your part of the world? These guys and gals are no different than Louis Farakahn and the nation of Islam here in the U.S.
Just like in every country we have our share of wackos. I suggest you do a search of Louis Farakahn on google and see the hate these knuckleheads preach. In a free society you will get this type of stuff...no biggie.

Nickdfresh
08-27-2006, 10:43 AM
And the Freedom of speech has worked, because people can freely oppose fascism, and other extremist ideas, using their own speech. And the authorites can focus their efforts on people that are actually criminals engaged in violent or illegal acts.

The Southern Poverty Law Center (http://www.splcenter.org/) is a great example of this.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intpro.jsp

Chevan
08-27-2006, 10:59 AM
I agree. But there seems to be a problem with hate-crimes in Russia. And a gov't that is deeply authoritarian, phrase it or spin it however you want.

This problem not so great as the newspapers imagine.
There were some killing of foreign students (from africa) - i know this usual picture for big modern city like Moscow.
The real problem that this is the resault of govermant politic. Whan russians were discriminated in the republics of that been of USSR nobody shouted about this. Today if one killing the foreigh student or woker this is the HOT news all of the world. I understand why you seems this problem appeared just now. This violence appeared in 1991 after USSR was down.


Not as true anymore, in fact Harlem is increasingly white in some sections. And the truth is that most people could always walk through even the "most dangerous streets" in America without being molested, during the day anyways. And a lot of middle class white drug users are known to go into the inner cities to get drugs and bring them back to the suburbs.

I hear about attempt to improve the situation in Harlem. There is even the tourist stage into Harlem today.
But i think you will aggree that black criminality is still the seriouse problem.


Extremism seems to have a lot to do with economics, and the blaming of the right social problems on the wrong people/imagined conspiratorial political entities. This is a problem with all societies, especially those in transformation.
Yes, i think we need to act together to solve this problem.

Chevan
08-27-2006, 11:56 AM
It wasn't "Hitler greeting" but fascist gesture made by Gen. Franco's followers.
You shouldn't generalize that every hand risen in such gesture is determing support of Hitler's sick ideas.
In Spain the situation is difficult because as you may know Chevan, there was a civil war were two ideolgies were involved. It still has a influence on some part of society.
Hi Kovalsky.
I heared about Spain civil war, and certainly not every hand risen in such gesture is determing support of Hitler's.
But not in this case
http://usatruth.by.ru/c4.files/imag0023a.jpg

If do you doubt read please the program of American N-S party.
http://www.nsm88.com/25points/25pointsengl.html


...
7.All non-White immigration must be prevented. We demand that all non-Whites currently residing in America be required to leave the nation forthwith and return to their land of origin: peacefully or by force.
...


I don't know, what "freedom of speech" do some members mean?
But obviously when some points of N-S party has the call to the forced moving out according to the racial sign this can't be consider in limits of freedoom speech. This can be consider by court.
Yes, i can to say this is the personal matter of Americans - to decide which party can be legal or illegal. But the problem is the nationalists in other countries take the example on americans.

Cheers.

Firefly
08-27-2006, 12:20 PM
Can I just ask what is the point of this thread?

If its solely to bait our US members here, I'm locking it.

These Nazis exist in almost every country and Combat 18 is not unique to the US, in fact it originated here in the UK;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_18

I wish some of you would get your facts right before you go spouting off.

The next posts better have some relevancy to something!

Nickdfresh
08-27-2006, 12:26 PM
Hi Kovalsky.
I heared about Spain civil war, and certainly not every hand risen in such gesture is determing support of Hitler's.
But not in this case
http://usatruth.by.ru/c4.files/imag0023a.jpg

If do you doubt read please the program of American N-S party.
http://www.nsm88.com/25points/25pointsengl.html

Cheven, what is your point with all of this? That American fascists are worse than others' fascists, like your own which are tacitly supported by elements in your gov't unlike ours? Why do you keep recycling photos of a few extremists? Do you think this is some "norm" over here? They're very much either ignored or scorned with anti-Klan demonstrators often outnumbering the actual groups of fascists.

I've posted actual news articles while you recycle the same photos 10-racist assholes at a protest. You say there are not more than 15K or 20K Russian skinheads, then how many American extreme rightists do you think exist?



I don't know, what "freedom of speech" do some members mean?
But obviously when some points of N-S party has the call to the forced moving out according to the racial sign this can't be consider in limits of freedoom speech. This can be consider by court.

If they actually try it, then they can be convicted under not only violating someone's civil rights, they can be tried under additional hate crimes statutes in the United States. There is a difference between speech and action.

White Supremacists/neoNazis/Black Separatists have been vigorously prosecuted in the US. You can google "The Order," "Randy Weaver," or the SLA. If their activities are illegal, then they will be investigated and prosecuted.

And freedom of speech is what American soldiers, sailors, marines, airmen, and Coast Guardsmen died for in WWII. Fascists censor freedom of speech, and break their own written laws to silence dissent.


Yes, i can to say this is the personal matter of Americans - to decide which party can be legal or illegal. But the problem is the nationalists in other countries take the example on americans.

Cheers.

Is this why many Russians are carrying out their own political pogrom? Because they see internet pictures of 'American idiots' in pseudo-SS uniforms? I highly doubt it!

Nickdfresh
08-27-2006, 12:35 PM
Before this hypocritically ludicrous thread is locked, I'd like to ask the Russian members here --what they think of their gov't?

Vladimir Putin is perceived by many in the West to be an Authoritarian "strongman" that uses censorship, biasedly targeted investigations of dissident groups, and espionage to attack political rivals and to silence dissent.

What does Cheven and Sneaksie think of this, I've noticed they've consciously avoid mention of their fearless ex-KGB Vlad the Impaler! Isn't he a sort of fascist? Yet his semi-police state fails to prosecute supposedly simpleton skinheads and the Russian mob? Interesting.

Both of you seem to imply a double standard. And I find it hysterically ironic that people from a country carrying out a War of vicious atrocities in Chechnya and with a gov't that has effectively suspended basic civil rights should be mentioning anybody else's' countries without examining their own.

Kovalski
08-27-2006, 12:43 PM
Hi Kovalsky.
I heared about Spain civil war, and certainly not every hand risen in such gesture is determing support of Hitler's.
But not in this case
http://usatruth.by.ru/c4.files/imag0023a.jpg

In this case you're right. I was just comenting what happend in Madrid.

As far as I know, the illegal nazi organisations in Poland are highly infiltrated by Internal Security Agency (ABW- polish counterintelligence agency) and the police, for many years.
Polish media started to speak loud about nazi problem after the whole case with polish "Blood & Honor" organization* came to daylight. There was a webpage installed on server in the USA, where the lists of nazis' enemies in Poland (left-wing activists, homosexuals, liberals, etc.) were publicated with all personal data (adresses, telephone numbers etc.). The admin of this webpage was openly calling the polish nazis to punish them (murder included). Fortunately, the polish police with cooperation with FBI suspended the webpage and all people in Poland who had something in common with creation of this page were arrested.
In fact if anyone carry a nazi swastika flag in public, he would face a serious consequences from the police.
For example, I have read recently that in city of Torun, district attorney is preparing charges against the members of NOP (National Revival of Poland), who will be accused of nazi propaganda. They had a fight with anarchists in the city center, but skinheads are the only one who will face the charges.
In the city of my birth, skinheads have never had a easy life. Besides all youth subcultures who were against skinheads, also police treated them in the "special" way. One of this idiots (calling himself a "Jackal") attacked once a man and beated him seriously. Fortunately the police patrol was in the area. They gave "Jackal" a nice lift home, so he was able to enter his house on his knees. ;)
Later he was sentenced for few years of prison.
*One mistake - the nazi webpage was "RedWatch" for sure, maybe also a "Blood & Honor", but I need to check it

Chevan
08-27-2006, 01:41 PM
Can I just ask what is the point of this thread?

If its solely to bait our US members here, I'm locking it.

These Nazis exist in almost every country and Combat 18 is not unique to the US, in fact it originated here in the UK;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_18

I wish some of you would get your facts right before you go spouting off.

The next posts better have some relevancy to something!

Firefly , this thread is not provocation.
We have the serious theme for discussion.
There is such problem exist In Russia.

Chevan
08-27-2006, 02:06 PM
Is this why many Russians are carrying out their own political pogrom? Because they see internet pictures of 'American idiots' in pseudo-SS uniforms? I highly doubt it!
They have interactions, they send members to each other to meetings where they are exchanged the experience.
How do you think in Russia was appeared american-british Combat 18.
They have the same programs and aims.

Nickdfresh
08-27-2006, 02:13 PM
I'm just wondering why you're more worried about a fringe, splinter group in the UK/US than you are about some of your own countries problems.

We do proscecute them here. For instance: The Order (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/adl/paranoia-as-patriotism/the-order.html)

Chevan
08-27-2006, 02:17 PM
In this case you're right. I was just comenting what happend in Madrid.

As far as I know, the illegal nazi organisations in Poland are highly infiltrated by Internal Security Agency (ABW- polish counterintelligence agency) and the police, for many years.
Polish media started to speak loud about nazi problem after the whole case with polish "Blood & Honor" organization* came to daylight. There was a webpage installed on server in the USA, where the lists of nazis' enemies in Poland (left-wing activists, homosexuals, liberals, etc.) were publicated with all personal data (adresses, telephone numbers etc.). The admin of this webpage was openly calling the polish nazis to punish them (murder included). Fortunately, the polish police with cooperation with FBI suspended the webpage and all people in Poland who had something in common with creation of this page were arrested.
In fact if anyone carry a nazi swastika flag in public, he would face a serious consequences from the police.
For example, I have read recently that in city of Torun, district attorney is preparing charges against the members of NOP (National Revival of Poland), who will be accused of nazi propaganda. They had a fight with anarchists in the city center, but skinheads are the only one who will face the charges.
In the city of my birth, skinheads have never had a easy life. Besides all youth subcultures who were against skinheads, also police treated them in the "special" way. One of this idiots (calling himself a "Jackal") attacked once a man and beated him seriously. Fortunately the police patrol was in the area. They gave "Jackal" a nice lift home, so he was able to enter his house on his knees. ;)
Later he was sentenced for few years of prison.
*One mistake - the nazi webpage was "RedWatch" for sure, maybe also a "Blood & Honor", but I need to check it
This's interesting information Kovalski.
I nothing knew about polish extremists.
Today in Russia governmant try to limit extremist party like RNU or National-bolsheviks.
Some active members was arrested. I am not sure that this can be just "political show". But it's need to do someting with extremists who kill or beat the peoples of another rase.

Sneaksie
08-28-2006, 06:13 AM
Russian OMON

There is a joke - OMON suppressed the masochist meeting. Both sides dreamed of such pleasure for a long time :mrgreen:


Before this hypocritically ludicrous thread is locked, I'd like to ask the Russian members here --what they think of their gov't?
Okay gov't, but laws too weak. Return of death sentences wanted by most people for perverts, child-killers and terrorists. Much more harsh laws against corruption is badly needed too. For example there is death sentence for corruption in China - look at their industrial growth.


Vladimir Putin is perceived by many in the West to be an Authoritarian "strongman" that uses censorship, biasedly targeted investigations of dissident groups, and espionage to attack political rivals and to silence dissent.
Do you have any concern for what, for example, Russians think about Bush or Blair? We have a similar zero interest in what you think about Putin or Russia.
Putin has no need to attack political rivals at all, from 1998 his rating was always extremly high. It's difficult to find a man which thinks he is a bad president. And contrary to fairytales your press pouring in you about freedom of speech in evil Russia you can think, say or print whatever you want as long as this is not fascism or such. There are several politicians and media which critisize Putin in any way they can (but these media are owned by Berezovsky which in hot company with Chechen terrorist is welcomed in UK - surprise, surprise).


What does Cheven and Sneaksie think of this, I've noticed they've consciously avoid mention of their fearless ex-KGB Vlad the Impaler! Isn't he a sort of fascist? Yet his semi-police state fails to prosecute supposedly simpleton skinheads and the Russian mob? Interesting.
What Impaler? What do you mean by fascist? You better answer for your words.
Semi-police state? It would be good - less crime, but, sadly, Russia is not a police state at all.


Both of you seem to imply a double standard. And I find it hysterically ironic that people from a country carrying out a War of vicious atrocities in Chechnya and with a gov't that has effectively suspended basic civil rights should be mentioning anybody else's' countries without examining their own.
Before accusing us in double standards, read your press. What last good or at least neutral thing about Russia have you read? When it was? Look at mirror too.
What atrocities from federal side? From bandits - many. Did you see video when bandit slowly cut the neck of agonizing Russian soldier in front of the camera? Find some other 'hysterically ironic' thing in your cozy UK and don't post nonsence about things you know nothing about.

Nickdfresh
08-28-2006, 06:56 AM
There is a joke - OMON suppressed the masochist meeting. Both sides dreamed of such pleasure for a long time :mrgreen:


Okay gov't, but laws too weak. Return of death sentences wanted by most people for perverts, child-killers and terrorists. Much more harsh laws against corruption is badly needed too. For example there is death sentence for corruption in China - look at their industrial growth.

Except for the laws he selectively "uses" against political enemies.



Do you have any concern for what, for example, Russians think about Bush or Blair? We have a similar zero interest in what you think about Putin or Russia.

Then why did you reply. The whole point of this thread is about fascism. Is Putin a democratic leader at this point? Bush and Blair are democratically elected and their unpopular terms are nearing a close. I could also care less about your uninformed, factless concepts of America that you repeated earlier.


Putin has no need to attack political rivals at all, from 1998 his rating was always extremely high. It's difficult to find a man which thinks he is a bad president. And contrary to fairytales your press pouring in you about freedom of speech in evil Russia you can think, say or print whatever you want as long as this is not fascism or such. There are several politicians and media which critisize Putin in any way they can (but these media are owned by Berezovsky which in hot company with Chechen terrorist is welcomed in UK - surprise, surprise).

Which is why he's shut down newspapers critical of him? And jailed the former owner of Yukos oil mainly because he was a political rival, and covered up latent incompetence regarding the Belsan School terror outrage and killed over 100 of his own citizens in the Moscow Theater outrage by denying them proper treatment for the poisonous gas the gov't piped in, in order to keep the gas type secret?



What Impaler? What do you mean by fascist? You better answer for your words.
Semi-police state? It would be good - less crime, but, sadly, Russia is not a police state at all.

No. It's a corrupt place. But there are some pretty horrifying things that have taken place in Chechnya but Russian soldiers against "bandits."



Before accusing us in double standards, read your press. What last good or at least neutral thing about Russia have you read? When it was? Look at mirror too.
What atrocities from federal side? From bandits - many. Did you see video when bandit slowly cut the neck of agonizing Russian soldier in front of the camera? Find some other 'hysterically ironic' thing in your cozy UK and don't post nonsence about things you know nothing about.

I'm not the one that started this thread that singled out Americans as especially prone to Nazism. And you are the one that seeks to minimize the threat of violent extremists in his country, not me. Yes, I did in fact see the Chechen resistance fighter murder the Russian soldier, and was appalled by it. But it doesn't excuse the wiping out of large sections of the Chechen population by the security forces and the routine extrajudicial abductions and killings there.


Why Bush is ignoring the latest Russian crackdown.
By Kim Iskyan
Updated Wednesday, Sept. 24, 2003, at 7:29 AM ET

Russia's role in the war on terrorism will be at the top of the agenda when U.S. President George W. Bush meets with Russian President Vladimir Putin later this week. Bush wants Russian troops in Iraq, help with North Korea, and cooperation with derailing Iran's nuclear aspirations. In return, he'll illustrate the harsh reality behind U.S. rhetoric about promoting democracy by largely ignoring the ways in which Putin has been undermining its foundations in Russia.

Putin, a former head of Russia's intelligence agency, has done a lot right since he became president in early 2000, taking Russia off the list of countries that can't seem to get their act together. Unlike Boris Yeltsin, his predecessor, Putin doesn't change prime ministers as often as he changes his socks, resulting in a relatively tranquil political environment. Although economic disparities remain enormous, and a small group of oligarchs dominates the economy, Russia is in the midst of its fifth consecutive year of economic growth, inflation is under control, and the ruble—once the currency equivalent of a late-night-show punch line—is strong. Perhaps more important, Putin has made Russia's progress toward a market economy almost irreversible, in part through a string of impressive economic reforms, like implementing a flat tax, and a range of other important changes to the country's economic infrastructure, such as land, pension, judicial, and labor reforms.

Putin's dark side—the one that Bush will pretend to not see—is his budding authoritarianism and his ever-closer association with the siloviki, a powerful group of former KGB and law enforcement officials. Putin has severely limited freedom of expression: Reporters Without Borders ranks Russia 121st out of 139 countries in its worldwide press freedom index, and a few months ago Russia's last independent national TV network was replaced with a state-sponsored sports channel in a final blow to national private television. Putin has made meddling in the electoral process an art and destroyed any attempt to balance power between branches of government. The brutal war in the breakaway territory of Chechnya regularly features astonishing infringements of basic human rights.

...
http://www.slate.com/id/2088796/



Here are some more links:

http://www.phrusa.org/research/chechnya/chech_rep.html

http://news.amnesty.org/index/ENGEUR460382005

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61671.htm


And you guys are worried about NeoNazism in America? "What's up" with Russia?

Lancer44
08-28-2006, 07:19 AM
I think that this "discussion" is detrimental for our Forum...
No comments ...

Lancer44

Nickdfresh
08-28-2006, 07:26 AM
What can I say about guys who think that America is the source of all NeoNazism, yet ignore and minimize the violence in their own country as just a few hooligans?

Sneaksie
08-28-2006, 08:29 AM
Except for the laws he selectively "uses" against political enemies.
When he did it?


Then why did you reply. The whole point of this thread is about fascism. Is Putin a democratic leader at this point? Bush and Blair are democratically elected and their unpopular terms are nearing a close. I could also care less about your uninformed, factless concepts of America that you repeated earlier.
This thread is about fascism and i don't see any connection between fascism and Putin. Yes Putin is democratic leader. He was democraticaly elected twice. What factless concepts of America i made? I only said that it is strange for me that Nazi is a legal party in US.

Which is why he's shut down newspapers critical of him?
This is an example of propaganda which i still not understand. Ask anyone from Russia "Which newspapers Putin closed?" and the answer will be "No newspapers". There are several media which critisize Putin but they are alive and OK.

And jailed the former owner of Yukos oil mainly because he was a political rival,
He was jailed for tax evasion, exactly like Al Capone - because other charges could not be proved. He didn't pay millions of dollars of tax. It's a mystery why he got such an fan-base in the West being criminal with high ambitions and nothing more. It seems you in the West consider anyone sentenced in Russia as opressed hero. Why? Truth is much simpler, leave conspiracies for kids.


and covered up latent incompetence regarding the Belsan School terror outrage and killed over 100 of his own citizens in the Moscow Theater outrage by denying them proper treatment for the poisonous gas the gov't piped in, in order to keep the gas type secret?
It was Putin who denied them treatment? Why blame Putin for everything? Gas itself was not secret, secret was an fact that it will be used. Because of that medics were not ready for 100+ knocked out people. Entire operation was made possible by use of gas - there were several terrorists with detonators scattered around entire theater.


No. It's a corrupt place. But there are some pretty horrifying things that have taken place in Chechnya but Russian soldiers against "bandits."
That's why i wrote that death sentence for corruption is needed, like in China.
Which atrocities commited Russian soldiers? Facts please and not propaganda from terrorist speaker in UK.


Yes, I did in fact see the Chechen resistance fighter murder the Russian soldier, and was appalled by it. But it doesn't excuse the wiping out of large sections of the Chechen population by the security forces and the routine extrajudicial abductions and killings there.
Security did not wiped Chechen population. You are talking about genocide here. I wrote my opinion about Chechnya in thread about communist ideology after Dani's request and you can read it there if you wish. Routine abductions and killings took place during de-facto independence of Chechnya and were state-level.

Nickdfresh
08-28-2006, 12:32 PM
When he did it?

Yes, when he did it.



This thread is about fascism and i don't see any connection between fascism and Putin. Yes Putin is democratic leader. He was democraticaly elected twice. What factless concepts of America i made? I only said that it is strange for me that Nazi is a legal party in US.

And then apologized for the Russian skinheads, which are statistically more violent than US Nazis, which are closely monitored. And the Nazi party isn't "legal," they cannot run for elections. But yes, they can protest and wear uniforms.


Which is why he's shut down newspapers critical of him?
This is an example of propaganda which i still not understand. Ask anyone from Russia "Which newspapers Putin closed?" and the answer will be "No newspapers". There are several media which critisize Putin but they are alive and OK.

Then why is Russia one of the worst countries regarding freedom of the press according to Media Watch? Are they run by "Chechen bandits" too?


He was jailed for tax evasion, exactly like Al Capone - because other charges could not be proved. He didn't pay millions of dollars of tax. It's a mystery why he got such an fan-base in the West being criminal with high ambitions and nothing more. It seems you in the West consider anyone sentenced in Russia as opressed hero. Why? Truth is much simpler, leave conspiracies for kids.

I've read the charges were trumped up or given exaggerated attention whilst Putin's supporters transgressions are ignored. He only was charged after posing a threat to Putin.



It was Putin who denied them treatment? Why blame Putin for everything? Gas itself was not secret, secret was an fact that it will be used. Because of that medics were not ready for 100+ knocked out people. Entire operation was made possible by use of gas - there were several terrorists with detonators scattered around entire theater.

Moscow doctors said they asked, and were not told what kind of gas was used. They could have administered the correct antidote had they been told, and saved many of the victims.



That's why i wrote that death sentence for corruption is needed, like in China.

Which will be charged as "corrupt?" Corrupt enemies while corrupt political friends go free?


Which atrocities commited Russian soldiers? Facts please and not propaganda from terrorist speaker in UK.

They were listed, read the Amnesty report about disappearances of those that have filed grievances.


Security did not wiped Chechen population. You are talking about genocide here. I wrote my opinion about Chechnya in thread about communist ideology after Dani's request and you can read it there if you wish. Routine abductions and killings took place during de-facto independence of Chechnya and were state-level.

I didn't use the word genocide, because that is not the Russian aim. It's "pacification." I used the words extrajudicial killing, as in assassinations. And I'm not apologizing for the Chechen terrorists either, I realized they committed horrifying acts of ruthless mass murder. But the security forces are far from innocent.

pdf27
08-28-2006, 02:43 PM
He was jailed for tax evasion, exactly like Al Capone - because other charges could not be proved. He didn't pay millions of dollars of tax. It's a mystery why he got such an fan-base in the West being criminal with high ambitions and nothing more. It seems you in the West consider anyone sentenced in Russia as opressed hero. Why? Truth is much simpler, leave conspiracies for kids.
I can quite believe that he's guilty. It does however look rather suspect when various robber barons get away scot-free for years and then get nailed as soon as they are percieved to be upsetting Putin. It may just be that the Kremlin needs better spin doctors to get the truth out in the west, but I can't help but suspect that some aspects of the old Soviet system live on and some guys are getting away with fraud just so long as they toe the party line.

Chevan
08-28-2006, 03:45 PM
Yes, when he did it.




And then apologized for the Russian skinheads, which are statistically more violent than US Nazis, which are closely monitored. And the Nazi party isn't "legal," they cannot run for elections. But yes, they can protest and wear uniforms.



Then why is Russia one of the worst countries regarding freedom of the press according to Media Watch? Are they run by "Chechen bandits" too?



I've read the charges were trumped up or given exaggerated attention whilst Putin's supporters transgressions are ignored. He only was charged after posing a threat to Putin.




Moscow doctors said they asked, and were not told what kind of gas was used. They could have administered the correct antidote had they been told, and saved many of the victims.




Which will be charged as "corrupt?" Corrupt enemies while corrupt political friends go free?



They were listed, read the Amnesty report about disappearances of those that have filed grievances.



I didn't use the word genocide, because that is not the Russian aim. It's "pacification." I used the words extrajudicial killing, as in assassinations. And I'm not apologizing for the Chechen terrorists either, I realized they committed horrifying acts of ruthless mass murder. But the security forces are far from innocent.
Nick , stop the hysteria.
We talk about neo-nazism here.


What can I say about guys who think that America is the source of all NeoNazism, yet ignore and minimize the violence in their own country as just a few hooligans?

nobody told that "America is the source of all NeoNazism"
But i wonder how quietly American authorities look at the Nazis. Honestly ,American Nazis do not interest me. Me it disturbs that Russian nationalists use a rich American experience.
When attempt to stop them they shout about the "freedom of speech".
People , who has in its regulations calls to the violence above other people.- they strongly require the observance of civil liberties for itself.
Don't wonder it to you?


And then apologized for the Russian skinheads, which are statistically more violent than US Nazis, which are closely monitored. And the Nazi party isn't "legal," they cannot run for elections. But yes, they can protest and wear uniforms

Where do you read this "statistic". I told you than russians skin are no more than 15 000.(While) this much less than in US or GB. This threat wile not seriouse, but in increase.
US nazi cannot rut the selections, but some brainless adolescents, after looking on US nazi, can take gun and kill their classmates.
http://usatruth.by.ru/c3.files/looo.jpg
Member of NSM near Wite House, Wasington 2002.
Seems, American government is too occupied with the concern about "democracy in entire peace", that even it does not see extremists near its windows.



It's "pacification." I used the words extrajudicial killing, as in assassinations. And I'm not apologizing for the Chechen terrorists either, I realized they committed horrifying acts of ruthless mass murder. But the security forces are far from innocent

Do you heare something about "pacification" in Iraq. I can show you some interesting photo .
And we will compare the different method of "pacification." in Chechnij and Iraq. OK?

P.S. I proposed you to have a talk quietly about the Putin's policy, you it refused. Instead of this you preferred to pour out all of propagandistic bullshit of Western media.

Chevan
08-28-2006, 03:59 PM
I can quite believe that he's guilty. It does however look rather suspect when various robber barons get away scot-free for years and then get nailed as soon as they are percieved to be upsetting Putin. It may just be that the Kremlin needs better spin doctors to get the truth out in the west, but I can't help but suspect that some aspects of the old Soviet system live on and some guys are getting away with fraud just so long as they toe the party line.
He is guilty. He for the trifle purchased active of YUKOS in 1995-96. And then it attempted to underpay taxes.
I agree, that this "chosen justice".
I don't like this situation. But I know real life in Russia and support the majority of the decisions of Putin. He causes respect in young people.
I aggre that corruption is here. But this is not the Putin's problem. This appeared in 1989-91 and than grou up. This common problem in modern world.

Sneaksie
08-28-2006, 05:15 PM
And the Nazi party isn't "legal," they cannot run for elections.
Why, if they are legal and there is freedom of speech and stuff? What prevents them from running for elections then?


Then why is Russia one of the worst countries regarding freedom of the press according to Media Watch?
I honestly don't know. Ask this Media Watch. Maybe you wouldn't trust everything you hear about Russia? I tell you what i see myself - there are media which critisize Putin. Almost copies of Wall Street Journal - same stuff about authoritarian Putin oppressing freedom.


I've read the charges were trumped up or given exaggerated attention whilst Putin's supporters transgressions are ignored. He only was charged after posing a threat to Putin.
I heard rumors that he was charged when he tried to sell YUKOS to unnamed foreign company. Neverthless, he is VERY far from being democratic hero fighting evil authoritarian state.


Moscow doctors said they asked, and were not told what kind of gas was used. They could have administered the correct antidote had they been told, and saved many of the victims.
People which died, died from suffocation because of retching while unconsious in medical cars en-route to hospital. This was because of poorly organized evacuation and treatment in first minutes after succesful storming. Medics are responsible for errors not less than others. I doubt they could find an antidote for a secret military grade knockout gas in a matter of hour or so even if they were told exact formula of the gas. People died not from gas itself - it's not lethal, it was designed to knockout, not to kill - but from it's consequences due to poor aid. It seems that medics were trying to make excuses for themselves by claiming about they could save everybody if they knew the formula. Neverthless, most of the doomed people in theater were saved.


And I'm not apologizing for the Chechen terrorists either, I realized they committed horrifying acts of ruthless mass murder. But the security forces are far from innocent.
War and innocence are very far apart. Those soldiers which commited crimes were court-martialed. But their crimes, while severe in some cases, are uncomparable to crimes of terrorists which i hope you'll never about.

Nickdfresh
08-28-2006, 06:37 PM
Nick , stop the hysteria.
We talk about neo-nazism here.

nobody told that "America is the source of all NeoNazism"
But i wonder how quietly American authorities look at the Nazis. Honestly ,American Nazis do not interest me. Me it disturbs that Russian nationalists use a rich American experience.
When attempt to stop them they shout about the "freedom of speech".
People , who has in its regulations calls to the violence above other people.- they strongly require the observance of civil liberties for itself.
Don't wonder it to you?

American authorities are stringent towards the Nazis, if you did an honest search, you'd find that many have called the ATF/FBI overzealous towards individuals such as Randy Weaver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge), where snipers shot his wife in a standoff.

And calls for specific acts of violence can be prosecuted as conspiracy, inciting a riot, etc. So they rarely advocate specific actions, just big stupid ideas.

And again, why are you lecturing Americans when I've clearly documented links between your authoritarian gov't and Russian fascist/communist groups advocating violence?


Where do you read this "statistic". I told you than russians skin are no more than 15 000.(While) this much less than in US or GB. This threat wile not seriouse, but in increase.
US nazi cannot rut the selections, but some brainless adolescents, after looking on US nazi, can take gun and kill their classmates.
http://usatruth.by.ru/c3.files/looo.jpg
Member of NSM near Wite House, Wasington 2002.
Seems, American government is too occupied with the concern about "democracy in entire peace", that even it does not see extremists near its windows.

Again with the photos that are supposed to represent something?:rolleyes: So what? A few assholes are in front of the White House, go there anytime and you'll find a protest. What is the worst that will happen? And again, Russia has its own problems with violence that goes beyond 20,000 (actually) skinheads. And how do you know "this is much less" than the UK or US? You're full of it! There are numerous extremist groups in Russia. And to be fair, by population numbers, the US could have up 30,000 to 40,000 skinheads comparatively, and I doubt there are really that many here (and not all skins are Nazis, many are in fact anti-fascist and left wing, or are anti-drug "straight edge kids.")



Do you heare something about "pacification" in Iraq. I can show you some interesting photo .
And we will compare the different method of "pacification." in Chechnij and Iraq. OK?

P.S. I proposed you to have a talk quietly about the Putin's policy, you it refused. Instead of this you preferred to pour out all of propagandistic bullshit of Western media.

"Pacification" of Iraq? LOL No, I hear of no such concept since Iraq is far from pacified, and I do not support my gov'ts actions there, nor did I vote for George Bush (either time). But Iraq at least has the pretension of "liberating" people from a dictator whereas Chechnya is a left over conflict of Russian and post-Soviet colonial domination.

And I'll discuss whatever I want in any thread I want, especially when it is related to the discussion. LOL Yeah, it's all just a Western media invention, huh? Says the guy that posts random pics of Nazi-Americans as a greater representation.

Nickdfresh
08-28-2006, 06:47 PM
Why, if they are legal and there is freedom of speech and stuff? What prevents them from running for elections then?

I believe the parties cannot get on the ballot because they do not have enough political support (not enough petition signatures). But I am not sure, but I've never seen the 'Nazi party' on an election ballot.

BTW, how many political parties in the Russian Rep. would you say advocate extreme nationalist/communist ideas?



I honestly don't know. Ask this Media Watch. Maybe you wouldn't trust everything you hear about Russia? I tell you what i see myself - there are media which critisize Putin. Almost copies of Wall Street Journal - same stuff about authoritarian Putin oppressing freedom.

Perhaps, but it is known that Putin has shut down virtually all critical TV news of him. Did he not convert an independent news channel into a sports network?


I heard rumors that he was charged when he tried to sell YUKOS to unnamed foreign company. Neverthless, he is VERY far from being democratic hero fighting evil authoritarian state.

But yet he only became a villain after publicly criticizing Putin and stating that he was to run for office. Most people would regard that as just a little suspicious.



People which died, died from suffocation because of retching while unconsious in medical cars en-route to hospital. This was because of poorly organized evacuation and treatment in first minutes after succesful storming. Medics are responsible for errors not less than others. I doubt they could find an antidote for a secret military grade knockout gas in a matter of hour or so even if they were told exact formula of the gas. People died not from gas itself - it's not lethal, it was designed to knockout, not to kill - but from it's consequences due to poor aid. It seems that medics were trying to make excuses for themselves by claiming about they could save everybody if they knew the formula. Nevertheless, most of the doomed people in theater were saved.


Fine, it was a terrible tragedy and an indefensible terror outrage, we'll leave it at that.



War and innocence are very far apart. Those soldiers which commited crimes were court-martialed. But their crimes, while severe in some cases, are uncomparable to crimes of terrorists which i hope you'll never about.

We hear about both, but you have to pay attention hard here to get news on Chechnya. But it's been a conflict which has long fascinated me for some reason. Unfortunately, there seem to be few good guys in the whole thing. And I am not anti-Russian. I cheered as much as anybody when they got that bastard Basayev (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/07/10/russia.basayev/index.html).

But Russia has been rather ruthless in Chechnya nevertheless.

Chevan
08-29-2006, 04:06 AM
BTW, how many political parties in the Russian Rep. would you say advocate extreme nationalist/communist ideas?

Just two parties. Both have the problems with law today.


Perhaps, but it is known that Putin has shut down virtually all critical TV news of him. Did he not convert an independent news channel into a sports network?

you talk about "critical TV news of him" which sponsored by criminals by Beresovskij or Gusinskij. Both are searched by the justice today.
These "independent canals" are not critical - it's russiafobian.


... But Iraq at least has the pretension of "liberating" people from a dictator whereas Chechnya

pretension of "liberating" ....! ;)
Open your eys. Iraq has the pretension to Civil and Religions war today.
In Chechnij at least peoples are not so much died as in Iraq today .


But Russia has been rather ruthless in Chechnya nevertheless.
So , what do you propose?
to be "good and affectionate" as Americans in Iraq?

Nickdfresh
08-29-2006, 07:54 AM
Just two parties. Both have the problems with law today.

you talk about "critical TV news of him" which sponsored by criminals by Beresovskij or Gusinskij. Both are searched by the justice today.
These "independent canals" are not critical - it's russiafobian.

I don't get my information from their media. And thank you for agreeing with my point, that anybody critical of the Russian gov't is 'investigated' or perceived as a 'criminal.';)


pretension of "liberating" ....! ;)
Open your eys. Iraq has the pretension to Civil and Religions war today.
In Chechnij at least peoples are not so much died as in Iraq today .

Really, are you sure? LOL I didn't say I greed with the Neoconservative new world order of democracy, I don't. But some did have good intentions. And the interest of ordinary Chechens hasn't been at the top of the Russian gov'ts list I suspect.


So , what do you propose?
to be "good and affectionate" as Americans in Iraq?

I think maybe autonomy for Chechnya might be the best for all involved. And America has spent billion$ 'rebuilding' Iraq, to the point we underfund our own projects at home. And certainly the US could act far worse in Iraq, we (mostly) prosecute our rapists and murderers there, I can point to several high profile, embarrassing cases of US military justice at work; I suspect I'd have a hard time finding high profile court martial of Russian soldiers charged with death squad activities or the "disappearances" of Chechens.

Chevan
08-30-2006, 12:47 AM
I don't get my information from their media. And thank you for agreeing with my point, that anybody critical of the Russian gov't is 'investigated' or perceived as a 'criminal.';)

Don't be at point of absurdity. We have many really independent sources: EUROnews, CNNInternational, BBSnews. I don't say about much newspaper and radio canals. I personaly, use internet - i constantly read western translations. I exelent know all of you "arguments".
Don't try , please, to wonder me by some "truth-facts" about Russia.
I can aggree that today Russia still far from democraty. But i know, we are in right way. I support the closing of "oligarch's canals" -this is the real "fifth column" as MSN-site in USA.
I know that basic TV-canals are pro-government today. Therefore i watch this just to know "right side", becouse usialy i learn the the "other side" information from the net and Satellite-chanals.
I support the disigion of Putins about limitation of work the foreign "social" organisation in RF. Some of them are the "fifth column" also.


Really, are you sure? LOL I didn't say I greed with the Neoconservative new world order of democracy, I don't. But some did have good intentions. And the interest of ordinary Chechens hasn't been at the top of the Russian gov'ts list I suspect.

good intentions ..
Do you hear the proverb: The way of good intentions - this the road to hell.
The Chechens are in Chechen govermnant - that's enough. They have a influence to governmant over Chechen diaspora in Moscow.
Chechens are presented in Soviet of Heads of Federations (parlament) and Duma.


I think maybe autonomy for Chechnya might be the best for all involved. And America has spent billion$ 'rebuilding' Iraq, to the point we underfund our own projects at home. And certainly the US could act far worse in Iraq, we (mostly) prosecute our rapists and murderers there, I can point to several high profile, embarrassing cases of US military justice at work; I suspect I'd have a hard time finding high profile court martial of Russian soldiers charged with death squad activities or the "disappearances" of Chechens.
THEY HAD AUTONOMY ALREADY in 1996-1999. Extrime islamist organisation were penetrated to Chechnij (Ichkiria). Peoples had not the work , schools was closed .
Islanist forces attaked the Dagestan.
This coulb be the end of peace live in Kavkaz where i ,personaly ,live.
I think you don't know the importain difference between Iraq and Checnij.
Iraq - this is imperial agression ( for oil ) . Chechnij - this is the forced measure to stop the civil war in Kavkaz.