Alternative Fighters for the Luftwaffe.

[Panzerknacker]

As you all probably know the German Air Force in 1939-45 was concentrated in basicly 2 tipes of single seat piston engine Fighter, the Messer Me-109 and the powerful Focke-Wulf FW-190.

Nevertheless there was also several other tipes and designs wich were intended to replace and complemented it.
This is not about future projeckts by the way.


He-112.

http://www.luzinde.com/meisaku/zero/he112.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

He-112 development.

During 1933 the Technisches Amt (the technical department of the RLM) concluded a series of research projects into the future of air combat. The result of the studies were four broad outlines for future aircraft:

Rüstungsflugzeug I for a multi-place medium bomber
Rüstungsflugzeug II for a tactical bomber
Rüstungsflugzeug III for a two-place heavy fighter
Rüstungsflugzeug IV for a single-place fighter
The Rüstungsflugzeug IV was intended to be a Verfolgungs-Jagdeinsitzer (single-seat fighter), and the requirements were not terribly hard to meet. The plane needed to have a top speed of 400km/h at 6000m (250mph at 19,500ft) which it could maintain for 20 minutes, while staying in the air for a total of 90 minutes. It also needed to be armed with at least three machine guns with 1000 rounds each, or one 20mm cannon with 200 rounds. One other interesting specification was that the plane needed to keep wing loading below 100kg/m2, which is a way of defining the plane's ability to turn and climb. The priorities for the plane were level speed, climb speed, and then maneuverability (in that order).

In October 1933 Hermann Göring sent out a letter requesting aircraft companies consider the design of a "high speed courier aircraft" — a thinly veiled request for a new fighter. In May 1934 this request was made official and the Technisches Amt (the technical department of the RLM) sent out a request for a single seat interceptor for the Rüstungsflugzeug IVrole, this time under the guise of a "sports aircraft".

The specification was first sent to the most experienced fighter designers, Heinkel, Arado, and Focke-Wulf. The request was later sent to newcomer Bayerische Flugzeugwerk (Bavarian Aircraft Manufacturers, or BFW), on the strength of their Bf 108 "Taifun" advanced sports plane design. Each company was asked to build three prototypes for run-off testing. By the spring of 1935 both the Arado and Focke-Wulf planes were ready.


The primary source of inspiration for the 112 is the earlier He 70 "Blitz" (Lightning). The Blitz was a single engine, 4-passenger plane originally designed for use by Lufthansa, and it in turn was inspired by the famous Lockheed Orion mailplane. Like many civilian designs of the time the plane was pressed into military service, and was used as a two seat bomber (although mostly for reconnaissance) and served in this role in Spain.


Vs the BF-109

The Contest
The 112V1 started off the head-to-head contest when it arrived at Travemünde on the 8th of February, 1936. The other three planes had all arrived by the beginning of March. Right away the Fw 159 and Ar 80 proved to be rather lacking in performance, and plagued with problems. It was clear that the contest was really between the He 112 and the Bf 109.

At this point in the program the 112 was still the favorite over the "unknown" 109, but opinions changed when the Jumo powered 109V2 arrived on the 21st of March. From that point on it started to outperform the 112 in almost every way, and even the arrival of the 112V2 with the Jumo engine on the 15th of April did little to address this imbalance.

As would be expected the 112 had better turn performance due to it's larger wing, but the 109 was faster at all altitudes and had considerably better agility and aerobatic abilities. During spin tests on the 2nd of March, the 109V2 showed no problems while the 112V2 crashed. Repairs were made to the plane and it was returned in April, but it crashed again and was written off. The V1 was then returned to Heinkel on April 17th, and fitted with the clipped wings.

V1 first proto.

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7720/101pz3.jpg

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/4733/2br8.jpg



V2.

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/4739/he112v23ri.jpg

Meanwhile news came in that Supermarine had recently received a contract for full scale production of the Spitfire, and this caused a wave of concern in the higher command of the Luftwaffe. Time now took on as much importance as any quality of the plane itself, and the RLM was ready to put any reasonable design into production.

That reasonable design was the Bf 109. On the 12th of March the Commission wrote up the outcome of their meetings in a document called "Bf 109 Priority Procurement". The plane that was considered a long shot for most of the program suddenly found itself leading the race. But there were some who still favored the Heinkel design, and as a result the RLM then sent out contracts for 15 "zero series" planes from both companies.

Testing continued until October, at which point some of the additional zero series planes had arrived. At the end of September there were four He 112's being tested, yet none was a clear match for the 109. This was likely the final nail in the 112's coffin, from October on the Bf 109 appears to have been selected as the winner of the contest.

[Tony Williams]

How about the Fw 187? I included that in my alt WW2 novel, The Foresight War (http://www.authorsonline.co.uk/viewbook.php?eBookID=385) ;)

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

[Panzerknacker]

I read the sample, pretty interesting.

By the way yes the Fw-187 was a very good twin engine fighter and one of the great "What if" of the Luftwaffe.

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/fw187-6.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

He-112 "Kanovogels"

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/6402/he112c2zk3.jpg

Probably the first german aircrafts designed to combat armor.


When it was clear the 112 was losing the contest, Heinkel offered to re-equip V2 and V6 with 20mm cannon armament as an experimental aircraft. The Technisches Amt was very interested; at the time many tanks were equipped with 20mm guns as their primary armament, the same armament on a plane could prove to be a powerful weapon.

In September a 20mm MG C/30L cannon was mounted to the plane, with the breech to the rear of the engine and the barrel lying between the cylinder banks and exiting in the propellor spinner and feeded by a 30 roud drum magazine. This is the first experimental mounting of what would later be called the motorkanone, a feature that wanst new, this layout was used by the french in some fighters from la late 20s.

MG-C-30 20 mm cannon.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/5553/330ow3.jpg


She was then broken down and shipped to Spain on the 9th of December.

After being re-assembled she was assigned to Versuchsjagdgruppe 88, a group within the Legión Cóndor devoted to testing new planes. There she was nicknamed the Kanonenvogel, and joined three V series Bf 109's which were also in testing.


http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/5707/v6ef6.jpg

The Kanonenvogel was adopted by Oberleutnant Günter Radusch who started flying the plane on the 9th of December at Tablada. From then on it joined the Ju 87A's and Hs 123's already in service and was used as a ground attack plane. On the 6th of February the plane was moved to Villa de Prado near Mardid, and then in March she was re-assigned to Jagdgruppe 88 at Almorox near Toledo.

While sitting at Almorox due to a mechanical problem in his He 45C, Oberleutnant Wilhelm Balthasar heard that a Republican armored train was approaching and talked himself into the cockpit of the V6 by insisting he was a Heinkel test pilot. After teaching himself to fly the plane and managing to get into the air, he found the train parked at the station in Seseña and attacked it. On his third pass one of the 20mm shells punctured the ammunition car and the entire train exploded. Then on the way back to Almorox he came across an armored car and set it on fire.

His exploit in the V6 made him famous, and Balthasar found himself in command of the newly formed combat group with the V6 and three He 45C recon planes. Over the next few months the V6 was flown by a number of pilots, and on the 6th of July Unteroffizier Max Schulze knocked out an additional number of armored cars. On the 19th of July Schulze was once again flying the V6 when the engine seized during landing. Schultze walked away from the resulting pancake landing, but the plane broke her back and was a writeoff.

[Panzerknacker]

Some of the "long" ammo fired by this powerful gun, the Mg-C-30 was a 2cm Flak 30 with incresed rate of fire. The 20x138 B cartrigdes had plenty more power than the MG-FF and MG-151 guns.

Armor piercing, 142 grams.

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/9261/perf11zl0.jpg

http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/652/perf2gc6.jpg


Explosive 120 grams. With tracer and self destruction. The initial muzzle speed was about 800-855 m/s.

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/8246/exp11bc1.jpg

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/9480/exp22xm3.jpg

[Tony Williams]

I had understood that the cannon installation was not primarily intended for ground attack, but for aerial combat - the Bf 109 was supposed to mount this gun as well. The idea was to attack planes at long range. This is supported by the fact that various French fighters had 20mm cannon for aerial combat, and the Luftwaffe was inspired by them.

Once in Spain it was realised that long-range fire from a high-velocity cannon was not very practical, so the He 112 was used for ground attack instead. The cannon installation was also reckoned to be too heavy. So the Luftwaffe abandoned the idea and went to the other extreme of very light, low-velocity 20mm for close-in combat.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

[Panzerknacker]

It maybe be intended to air-to-air combat but his role was changed.

I dont Think that that the 64 kg of a MG-C-30 were too big, The russian mounted heavy guns like the 23mm Ns-23 and 37 mm between the V-12 engines of relatively light fighters like Yak-9 and Lagg-3 with no too much trouble.

As you know the balistic of the Mg-ff was very poor compared with this, I think that a mistake drop out the developmente of this Mg, especially when the Luftwaffe sought a gun for the anti-bomber role later in the war.

[Tony Williams]

I dont Think that that the 64 kg of a MG-C-30 were too big, The russian mounted heavy guns like the 23mm Ns-23 and 37 mm between the V-12 engines of relatively light fighters like Yak-9 and Lagg-3 with no too much trouble.

As you know the balistic of the Mg-ff was very poor compared with this, I think that a mistake drop out the developmente of this Mg, especially when the Luftwaffe sought a gun for the anti-bomber role later in the war.

The MG C/30L installation reportedly weighed 180 kg complete with full 100-round drum. That was a lot for a late-1930s plane, which did not have the power of later models. The ballistics were excellent, but the rate of fire was only 300-350 rpm and the gun was very long - it certainly could not have been wing-mounted in anything. I agree that the MG-FF ballistics were too poor, but the MG 151/20 was a good balance between ballistics, weight and RoF.

The Luftwaffe might have chosen the Oerlikon FFL rather than the FF - see THIS (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/OeFFL.htm)

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

[Panzerknacker]

The MG C/30L installation reportedly weighed 180 kg complete with full 100-round drum. That was a lot for a late-1930s plane, which did not have the power of later models.

Well, I did not have that information, I read somewhere that it used 30 o 60 round drums.

The Luftwaffe might have chosen the Oerlikon FFL rather than the FF - see THIS

Nice article. And with respect to the MG-151/20,...I think that was a good gun indeed, but I feel ( And this is probably a personal mania) wen I see some germn WW2 guncams that this 20 mm gun was a little underpowered, especially engaging single bombers at more than 250 meters in range.

The 2 cm Flak 38 ( the evolution of the Mg-C-30) was faster firing and probably it could be adapted to the V-12 fighters like Bf-109 without many trouble...Why they do not do that.?..I dont Know.


This was the MG-C gun layout in the crashed He-112V2.

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/6831/motorv6mo0.jpg


Image from "Jagdeinziter He-112 Hans Peter Dabrowski/Waffen Arsenal"

[Panzerknacker]

Messer Me-309.

V1 with nose cap removed

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/2590/me3091px5.jpg

The Messerschmitt Me 309 was a prototype German fighter designed in the early years of World War II to replace the Messerschmitt Bf 109. Although it had many advanced features, the Me 309's performance left much to be desired and it suffered from so many problems that the project was cancelled with only four prototypes built. The Me 309 was one of several failed Messerschmitt projects intended to replace the aging Bf 109, the others being the Me 209 and the Me 209-II.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/8/87/300px-Me-309-1.jpg


The Me 309 project began in mid-1940, just as the Bf 109 was having its first encounters with the Spitfire in the Battle of Britain, the first aircraft to match the 109 in speed and performance. Already Messerschmitt anticipated the need for an improved design to replace the Bf 109. The RLM, however, did not feel the same urgency, and the project was given a low priority and the design was not finalized until the end of 1941.

The new fighter had many novel features, such as tricycle landing gear and a pressurized cockpit which would have given it more comfortable and effective high-altitude performance. Each of the new features was first tested on a number of Bf 109F airframes, the V23 having a ventral radiator, the V31 with radiator and tricyle landing gear, and the V30 having a pressurized cockpit.

Low government interest in the project delayed completion of the first prototype until spring 1942 and trouble with the nosewheel pushed back the 309's first flight to July. When it did fly, the Me 309's performance was satisfactory but not exemplary. In fact, the Bf 109G could outturn its intended replacement. With the addition of armament, the plane's speed decreased to an unnacceptable level. In light of its poor performance and the much more promising development of the Focke-Wulf Fw 190D, the Me 309 was cancelled.

cutaway view of the Messerschmitt Me 309

http://www.luft46.com/mess/309-6.jpg



In 1943, Messerchmitt made one last attempt at creating a replacement for the Bf 109 in the form of the Me 209-II. It was essentially a modification of the existing 109 airframe, Messerschmitt designers not wanting to invest the time and trouble in a new design like the Me 309.

V2

http://avions.legendaires.free.fr/Images/Gme309.jpg


Type: Single-seat fighter

Origin: Messerscmitt AG

Models: V1 to V4

First Flight: June 1942

Service Delivery: None

Final Delivery: None



Engine:
Model: Daimler-Benz DB 605B or DB-603A1
Type: Inverted V12 liquid-cooled
Horsepower: 1,475

Dimensions:
Wing span: 11.04m (36 ft. 2¾ in.)
Length: 9.46m (31 ft. ½ in.)
Height: 3.45m (11 ft. 3 in.)
Wing Surface Area: N/A

Weights: (V1)
Empty: 3530kg (7,783 lbs.)
Maximum: 4250kg (9,371 lbs.)

Performance:
Maximum Speed: 720km/h (V1 with DB-603)


www.warbirdsresoursegroup.com

http://www.luft46.com/mess/me609.html

[George Eller]

Messer Me-309.

V1 with nose cap removed

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/2590/me3091px5.jpg

The Messerschmitt Me 309 was a prototype German fighter designed in the early years of World War II to replace the Messerschmitt Bf 109. Although it had many advanced features, the Me 309's performance left much to be desired and it suffered from so many problems that the project was cancelled with only four prototypes built. The Me 309 was one of several failed Messerschmitt projects intended to replace the aging Bf 109, the others being the Me 209 and the Me 209-II.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/8/87/300px-Me-309-1.jpg


The Me 309 project began in mid-1940, just as the Bf 109 was having its first encounters with the Spitfire in the Battle of Britain, the first aircraft to match the 109 in speed and performance. Already Messerschmitt anticipated the need for an improved design to replace the Bf 109. The RLM, however, did not feel the same urgency, and the project was given a low priority and the design was not finalized until the end of 1941.

The new fighter had many novel features, such as tricycle landing gear and a pressurized cockpit which would have given it more comfortable and effective high-altitude performance. Each of the new features was first tested on a number of Bf 109F airframes, the V23 having a ventral radiator, the V31 with radiator and tricyle landing gear, and the V30 having a pressurized cockpit.

Low government interest in the project delayed completion of the first prototype until spring 1942 and trouble with the nosewheel pushed back the 309's first flight to July. When it did fly, the Me 309's performance was satisfactory but not exemplary. In fact, the Bf 109G could outturn its intended replacement. With the addition of armament, the plane's speed decreased to an unnacceptable level. In light of its poor performance and the much more promising development of the Focke-Wulf Fw 190D, the Me 309 was cancelled.

cutaway view of the Messerschmitt Me 309

http://www.luft46.com/mess/309-6.jpg



In 1943, Messerchmitt made one last attempt at creating a replacement for the Bf 109 in the form of the Me 209-II. It was essentially a modification of the existing 109 airframe, Messerschmitt designers not wanting to invest the time and trouble in a new design like the Me 309.

V2

http://avions.legendaires.free.fr/Images/Gme309.jpg


Type: Single-seat fighter

Origin: Messerscmitt AG

Models: V1 to V4

First Flight: June 1942

Service Delivery: None

Final Delivery: None



Engine:
Model: Daimler-Benz DB 605B or DB-603A1
Type: Inverted V12 liquid-cooled
Horsepower: 1,475

Dimensions:
Wing span: 11.04m (36 ft. 2¾ in.)
Length: 9.46m (31 ft. ½ in.)
Height: 3.45m (11 ft. 3 in.)
Wing Surface Area: N/A

Weights: (V1)
Empty: 3530kg (7,783 lbs.)
Maximum: 4250kg (9,371 lbs.)

Performance:
Maximum Speed: 720km/h (V1 with DB-603)


www.warbirdsresoursegroup.com

http://www.luft46.com/mess/me609.html
-

In some ways this last design almost reminds me of the Me262 (other than obvious differences between piston and jet propulsion). Particularly the tail, canopy, tricycle landing gear and fuselage shape (somewhat).

-

[Panzerknacker]

I Think that was on purpose to sav development time, the germans adaptd tr tricicle landing gear late in war....i dont kow why.

Nice 3 view of the havily armed V4.

http://www.airpages.ru/draw/me309.gif

[Panzerknacker]

Two more images of the Me-309.

The nose gear layout.......


http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/9498/me309nosegeardb6.gif



wich was not his best caracteristic...

http://img471.imageshack.us/img471/3039/me3091vq1.jpg

[Tony Williams]

There was one totally consistent thing about Willi Messerschmitt's designs - the undercarriage had a tendency to collapse.

I thought it highly appropriate that the undercarriage of one of the new-build Me 262's collpased on landing a year or two back :D

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

[Doug 1956]

There was one totally consistent thing about Willi Messerschmitt's designs - the undercarriage had a tendency to collapse.

I thought it highly appropriate that the undercarriage of one of the new-build Me 262's collpased on landing a year or two back :D

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Might also account for the failure of the Kriegsmarine to put the Graf Zepplin into service - an airgroup of fighters that could only do one landing before being replaced would be a disadvantage.

[Panzerknacker]

The nose down in that picture was caused ( beside the weaknees) for the reversible pitch propeller used in the Me-309, that was maked to create aditional brake power in landing...but also this increase the stress in the the front wheel with the visible results.

http://www.airpages.ru/img/lw/me309.jpg


Alternative cockpit layout.

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/421/me309cockpitdesignsxd7.gif

[Panzerknacker]

He-112V7 an aicraft equipped with the powerful DB-601, with this it surparsed the performances of the BF-109Emil by far.

The semieliptical wing also give it good handling at dogfights. despite his good behavior the definitive He-112 variant, the Berta, used a much less powerful Jumo 210GA.

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1102/heinkelhe11218si5.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

He-100 interceptor.

This pleasant looking fighter was another failed attempt by Ernst Heikel AG to compete against the Bf 109. Disappointed by the loss of the Luftwaffe's fighter orders to BFW and it's Bf 109 and the failure of the He 112, Heinkel set out to build a lighter and faster fighter that was also cheaper and easier to build. The resulting Projekt 1035 was completed on May 25, 1937 and by the end 1937 the RLM had sanctioned a prototype and ten pre-production machines. The prototype flew on January 22, 1938 was very fast but was disliked due to high wing loading. The He 100 achieved some of it's speed by doing away with the anti-aerodynamic radiatoer and using a surface evaporative system for cooling.

http://img478.imageshack.us/img478/2272/he1002pa7.jpg

Even though the He 100 broke several world speed records, the RLM was solidly supportive of the Bf 109 and failed to order the He 100 into production. Six prototypes were eventually sold to the Soviet Union and three He 100D-0 went to Japan. The three He 100D-0's being armed with two MG 17 and a 20mm MG/FF. The remaining 12 He 100D-1 fighters were used to form a Heinkel-Rostock factory defense unit, flown by Heinkel pilots. However, in 1940, Goebbels publicised the He 100 to the extent that British intelligence reported the He 100 in large scale service as the "He 113".


http://img478.imageshack.us/img478/9707/he1003na9.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

He 100D-1

http://www.eads.com/xml/content/OF00000000400006/0/48/705480.jpg


The final evolution of the short He 100 history is the D-1 model. As the name suggests the design was supposed to be very similar to the pre-production D-0's, the main planned change was to enlarge the horizontal stabilizer

But the big change was the eventual abandonment of the surface cooling system, which proved to be too complex and failure prone. Instead an even larger version of the retractable radiator was installed, and this appeared to completely cure the problems. The radiator was inserted in a "plug" below the cockpit, and as a result the wings were widened slightly.

The clean lines of the He-100D-1 ( false denomination He-113)

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/4365/he1004rp7.jpg

While the plane didn't match it's design goal of 700km/h once it was loaded down with weapons, the larger canopy and the radiator, it was still capable of speeds in the 400mph range. A low drag airframe is good for both speed and range, and as a result the He 100 had a combat radius between 900 and 1000km compared to the 109's 600km. While not in the same league as the later escort fighters, this was at the time a superb range and may have offset the need for the 110 to some degree.

By this point the war was underway, and as the Luftwaffe would not purchase the plane in its current form, the production of the He-100, the most advanced fighter of his time line was shut down after only 12 produced.

Specifications for the He 100D-1c

Engine: 1,175hp (876kW) Daimler-Benz DB 601M liquid–cooled inverted V12
Dimensions: span 9.42m (30ft 10 3/4in)
length 8.20m (26ft 10 3/4in)
height 3.60m (11ft 9 3/4 in)
Weights: empty 2070kg (4,563lb)
max loaded 2500kg (5,512lb)
Wing Area: 14.5m2 (156ft2)
Wing Loading: 29.25lbs/ft2
Performance: maximum speed 668km/h at 6400m (416mph at 21,000ft)
560km/h (348mph) at sea level
cruise speed unknown
service ceiling 11000m (36,090ft)
range 900km (559miles)
Armament: one 20mm MG/FF-M firing through the propeller spinner
two 7.92mm MG17 in the wings


-------------


Sources:

http://tecnica-militar.fateback.com/aereo/Heinkel%20100.htm

http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/he100.html

[Panzerknacker]

There was also a double version, the Me-609.

http://www.nurflugel.com/Nurflugel/n_o_d/images/airplanes/me609.jpg


It was equpped with two DB-603a of 1750 hp, Speed 725 km/h, ceiling 11500 metres, range 1450 km, bomb load max 1000 kg.

[Digger]

One of the major stumbling blocks for production of the He-100 was it's use of the same engine as the Bf-109. As the He-100 was ill suited for different aero engines without major design change, this precluded further development. Of course the obvious answer was to produce more engines, but this was beyond German industry at the time.

Regards to all
Digger

[Panzerknacker]

Agree completely, the lack of DB-601s was the nail in the coffin for this very fine Fighter/interceptor.

He-100D-0

http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/he100/he100-6.jpg

[Digger]

Development and production of aero engines was always a problem for Germany, a situation they never truly resolved.

There is no doubt the He-100D was potentially a great fighter, but we'll never know.

Regards to all
Digger.

[Twitch1]

The Fw 190Ds did quite well with Junker Jumos. Doesn't seem to be a reason why the He 100 could have been developed with the same 1,770 HP Jumo 213A-1engine. http://www.thefedoralounge.com/images/smilies/huh.gif

[Dani]

OFF-TOPIC: Twitch, welcome back and excuse my ignorance. Who is Don Gentile back in your sig?:D

[Digger]

G'day

The He-100 was specifically designed around the DB-601, therefore any engine change would have meant a massive redesign. The other problem that effected the type was the troublesome surface evaporative cooling system.

Regards to all
Digger

[Panzerknacker]

The Fw 190Ds did quite well with Junker Jumos. Doesn't seem to be a reason why the He 100 could have been developed with the same 1,770 HP Jumo 213A-1engine. http://www.thefedoralounge.com/images/smilies/huh.gif


The reason was simple, the fine 36 valve Jumo 213 was not available in 1938-39 time in wich the He-100D was developed.

[Firefly]

Whats this?

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/7137/jerryacit4.jpg

[Digger]

G'day,

This looks like the Blohm und Voss Bv-155, possibly a V-1 or V-2 prototype, though I presume the artist has depicted a production version. So there are differences.

The Bv-155 high altitude fighter sprung from the Me-155 carrier fighter development and though it showed some promise, technical difficulties plagued the programme. Progress was slow and the V-1 prototype flew in September 1944 and the V-2 prototype flew in February 1945.

Planned maximum altitude of this fighter was to be around 55,000 feet with a top speed of 429mph.

Hope this helps.

Regards to all,
Digger.

[Panzerknacker]

Actually is more like the Messerschmitt P.1091 who was a Competitor for the high altitude Me-155/B&V 155 program.

http://home.wanadoo.nl/r.j.o/skyraider/mep1091a_1.htm

[Digger]

Thanks for that Panzerknacker, the other paintings are much clearer. I was a bit stumped by the wing configuration, so good detective work. While I am interested in German aircraft development, I don't pay much attention to 'drawing board developments' as my research is concentrated on aircraft that reached at least prototype status.

Again though this development by Messerschmitt highlights the waste in German research and development. So much effort put in to programmes with little chance of success.

Regards to all,
Digger.

[Panzerknacker]

Indeed the Blohm & voss teams desing and the Messerchmitt technical staff fought between them to achieve this design but the results were inconclused, completely maniac aircraft, only 2 were made by B & V in Hamburg.

BV-155B (V2)

http://www.samoloty.ow.pl/rys/rys134.jpg

The task of this aircraft was to intercep the B-29s, a menace wich never was over the german skies.

Pic from: http://www.samoloty.ow.pl/str404.htm

[Firefly]

Thanks for that Panzerknacker, the other paintings are much clearer. I was a bit stumped by the wing configuration, so good detective work. While I am interested in German aircraft development, I don't pay much attention to 'drawing board developments' as my research is concentrated on aircraft that reached at least prototype status.

Again though this development by Messerschmitt highlights the waste in German research and development. So much effort put in to programmes with little chance of success.

Regards to all,
Digger.

I couldnt agree more. The Nazi system squandered resources by competing against each other. Goering had his projects, Himmler his and others theirs. Hitler liked to keep his underlings competing against each other and the results were, thankfully for us, terrible for the Nazis.

[Panzerknacker]

And if you add the excesive taste for prototipes wich seems be a german caracteristic...:roll: ...wasted time and resources.

-------------------------

Messerschmitt Me-209.


The Me-209 was essentially a purpose-built air racer whose only real commonality with the "Bf-109" was its DB-601 engine. It won a world speed record of 756 KPH (almost 470 MPH) on 26 April 1939. Willy Messerschmitt decided to see if the racer might make a good fighter, and came up with the "Me-209V4" prototype, which performed its initial flight on 12 May 1939. The fighter prototype strongly resembled the original Me-209 air racer, but had many changes, including a new wing, taller vertical tailplane, and provision for two MG-17 guns in the cowling and an MG-FF/M Motorkanone.


An air racer is a highly specialized aircraft and is not generally suited for military use. The Me-209V4's ground and flight handling were terrible, and successive tweaks over a year's time did nothing but raise the aircraft's weight until it couldn't win an air race against an Emil, much less the improved Frederick that was in the works. Messerschmitt finally cut his losses and gave up on the idea.


The real competitor was the last evolved version of the Bf-109, the "Me-209-II", which confusingly had nothing to do with the original Me-209 racer. The "clean-sheet" Me-309 having proven a failure, Messerschmitt decided to see if the Bf-109G design could be modified to create the next-generation fighter he had wanted.
The Me-209-II had a redesigned tail; landing gear that hinged in the wings instead of the fuselage, eliminating the Bf-109's troublesome narrow track; an uprated engine; a taller tailfin; and a DB-603 engine with an annular radiator that misleadingly suggested a radial engine. However, as design of the Me-209-II progressed, one change demanded another, and it became increasingly dissimilar to the Bf-109G.


The first prototype, the "Me-209V5", following in number sequence of the entirely different Me-209V4 of 1939, took to the air on 3 November 1943. It was supposed to be the prototype for the "Me-209A-1" production aircraft, with an MK-108 Motorkanone and an MG-131 in each wingroot.

Cutaway Me-209 V5.

http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/8109/me209v5cutaway5no.gif


A number of experimental modification kits were developed for this prototype, including MK-108s mounted in a fairing that extended back over the top of the wing. This fit actually turned out to improve the aircraft's flight characteristics and the idea would be used on some other aircraft designs later.
A second prototype, the "Me-209V6", followed. It was similar to the Me-209V4 but fitted with a Jumo 213 engine with annular radiator, and MG-151/20s replacing the MG-131s in the wing roots. It was supposed to be the prototype for the "Me-209A-2" production aircraft. A third prototype, for a high-altitude fighter variant designated the "Me-209H", was rolled out in the spring of 1944. The "Me-209HV1" featured extended wings and a DB-603E engine. The variant was supposed to be fitted with advanced turbocharged Daimler-Benz engines such as the DB-628A, but by late spring 1944 all work on the Me-209 had been abandoned, since its compatibility with existing production lines had almost completely evaporated. The RLM settled on the Focke-Wulf Ta-152H as the Reich's high-altitude fighter.

Sources:

www.warbirdsresourcegroup.com (http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.com)

http://www.vectorsite.net/avbf109_3.html#m1

[FW-190 Pilot]

how about Me-328, where the military are trying to lanuch their plane from a bomber

[Panzerknacker]

The Me-328 suposedly was an "parasite fighter" wich shall be used to protect long range aircraft, such as the "Amerika Bombers" Ju-390, Me-264.

[Panzerknacker]

3 view of the Jumo 213 powered Me-209 V6.

[Panzerknacker]

Focke-Wulf-Tank Ta-154.

The Focke-Wulf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf) Ta 154 Moskito was a fast German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftwaffe) night fighter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_fighter) designed by Kurt Tank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Tank) and produced by Focke-Wulf late in World War II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II). Only a few were produced and proved to have less impressive performance than the prototypes.

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/ta154-1.jpg

Kurt Tank's team at Focke-Wulf had been working for some time on a fast attack bomber called the Ta 211 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Focke-Wulf_Ta_211&action=edit), so named because it planned to use an uprated Jumo 211R (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Jumo_211) engine. The plane was a high-wing twin-engine design that bears a strong resemblance to the Grumman F7F (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_F7F) Tigercat, and was built primarily of plywood bonded with a special glue called Tego-Film. The only large-scale use of metal was in the pressurized cockpit.
In August 1942 the RLM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reich_Air_Ministry) (the German Air Ministry) asked for designs to meet a need for a dedicated night-fighter, and the competition quickly boiled down to the Heinkel He 219 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_219) and an adapted version of the Ta 211 called the Ta 154. Fifteen prototypes of each were ordered for further testing. Throughout the contest the RLM generally favored the 219 due to its better visibility and range. They also seemed to be suspicious of the 154's wooden construction. In 1942 the Messerschmitt Me 210 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_210) should have been the only plane considered, but it was suffering terrible development problems and was ignored.

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/ta154-2.jpg

It was at about this time that the light and very fast de Havilland Mosquito (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Mosquito), also made of wood, arrived over Germany. It quickly racked up an impressive record; in its first 600 bombing missions only 1 was shot down, compared to an average of 1 in 5 for heavy bombers. Erhard Milch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Milch) personally requested a purpose-built German answer, and selected the 154. Infighting within German circles started almost immediately, because the RLM and nightfighter units still wanted the He 219. Milch took this personally, and spent the better part of the next two years trying to have the 219 killed.

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/ta154-3.jpg

Development of the Ta 154 was already well advanced, and the first prototype V1 with Jumo 211F engines flew on July 1st (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_1st), 1943 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1943). It was followed by V2 with Jumo 211N engines, which was kept at the factory for handling trials. V1 was then sent to Rechlin-Lärz Airfield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechlin-L%C3%A4rz_Airfield) for fly-off testing against the 219 and the new Junkers Ju 388 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_388). There the 154 reached almost 700 km/h and easily outflew the other two planes, but they were both fully armed and included radar.



The first armed version of the Ta 154 was the V3, which also was the first to fit the Jumo 211R engines. The added weight of the guns and drag of the radar antennas slowed the plane by a full 75 km/h, although it was still somewhat faster than the 219. The rest of the 15 prototypes were then delivered as A-0 models, identical to V3. Some of these also included a raised canopy for better vision to the rear.
It quickly became clear that the Jumo 211R would not be available any time soon, if at all. Future production turned to the more powerful Jumo 213A (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Jumo_213), but this was also suffering from long delays. The 154 program spent most of the next year testing various prototypes, and sent many of the A-0's to Erprobungskommando 154. During these tests the plane showed an alarming tendency to break its landing gear, and about half of the V series were lost this way.

http://www.samoloty.ow.pl/rys/rys188.jpg


By June 1944 the Jumo 213 was finally arriving in some numbers, and a small run of 154 A-1's was completed with these engines. Just prior to delivery the only factory making Tego-Film, in Wuppertal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuppertal), was bombed out, and the plywood glue had to be replaced by one that was not as strong, and was later found to react chemically with wood. In July several A-1's crashed with wing failure due to plywood delamination. This same problem also critically affected the Heinkel He 162 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_162) Spatz, Ernst Heinkel's "Volksjager" jet fighter program entry.
Tank halted production in August, and the RLM eventually cancelled the entire project in September (Milch had been removed by this point). In that time about 50 production versions had been completed, and a number of the A-0 pre-production planes were later modified to the production standard. Some of the planes served with NJG 3, and a few were later used as training aircraft for jet pilots.
[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Focke-Wulf_Ta_154&action=edit&section=1)]
(http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/)
Specifications (Ta 154 A-1)


Crew: Two
Length: 12.55 m (40 ft 3 ¼ in)
Wingspan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingspan): 16.30 m (52 ft 5 ¼ in)
Height: 3.60 m (11 ft 4 in)
Wing area: 31.40 m² (333,68 ft²)
Empty weight: 6,600 kg (14,550 lb)
Max takeoff weight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_Take-Off_Weight): 9,950 kg (21,935 lb)
Powerplant: 2× Junkers Jumo 211 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Jumo_211)N liquid-cooled V-12, 1,500 hp (1,120 kW) each Performance


Maximum speed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vno): 615 km/h (404 mph)
Range (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_%28aircraft%29): 1,400 km (872 miles)
Service ceiling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_ceiling): 9,500 m (31,200 ft)
Rate of climb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rate_of_climb): 15 m/s (2,800 ft/min)
Wing loading (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_loading): kg/m² (lb/ft²)
Power/mass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-to-weight_ratio): kW/kg (hp/lb) Armament


2x 20 mm MG 151 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_151)
2x 30 mm MK 108 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MK_108) nose-mounted cannons
2x 30 mm fuselage-mounted MK 108 cannons (Schräge Musik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%A4ge_Musik))
Sources:

www.wikipedia.com (http://www.wikipedia.com)

www.warbirdsresourcegroup.com (http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.com)

http://www.samoloty.ow.pl/rys/

[Panzerknacker]

Me-509.

http://www.luft46.com/mess/3bm509.jpg


Although the Me 509 can trace its roots back to the Me 309, very little information has survived. The aircraft was to be of an all-metal construction. A new fuselage was designed, with the pressurized cockpit being moved well forward near the nose. The Daimler Benz 605B 12-cylinder engine was buried in the fuselage behind the cockpit, and drove a three-bladed, Me P 6 reversible-pitch propeller by an extension shaft which passed beneath the cockpit (similar to the US Bell P-39). The wing was tapered and had rounded wingtips, and was mounted low on the fuselage. Other Me 309 components were to be used, such as the tricycle landing gear, and the vertical tail assembly was similar to the one used for the Me 309 V1. Armament was not decided upon for the 509, but it is thought that two MG 131 13mm machine guns and two MG 151 20mm cannon were to be used. Although there were advantages of better cockpit visibility and relocation of the engine weight from the nose gear (important, since the Me 309's nose gear often collapsed), the Me 509 design and development was stopped when the Me 309 program was ended in mid-1943.
In April 1945, the Japanese completed a very similar project, the Yokosuka R2Y Keiun. Although no firm evidence exists, it is possible that the Me 309/509 information was licensed to the Japanese military, as were a number of other German designs (Bf 109, He 100, Me 163, Me 410, among others).
Messerschmitt Me 509 Dimensions (estimate) Span Length Height 11.27 m
37' 0"9.94 m
32' 7"3.98 m
13' 1"

www.luft46.com.

[Panzerknacker]

One of the weirdest, the Natter (snake)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_M86jzaVljs&mode=related&search=

[Digger]

The Luftwaffe fought the entire WWII with basically the same aircraft it went to war. Of course the Fw-190 was the major introduction of a new type of fighter, and there were others which only had a minor impact on the air war.

Much has been made of the intrigues played out in the selection process of equipment granted production status and it is quite possible if certain types were introduced instead of those chosen the impact might have been significant.

So what if the He-100D was given priority over the Bf-109? Or if Milch had cast aside his prejudices and granted the highest priority to the He-219. Was the failed Ta-154 the right choice? If Heinkel was granted production status of the He-280 in late 1942, would this aircraft had maintained the quality lead the Luftwaffe enjoyed?

Was Goerings favouritism responsible for the non event of one of the most spectacular twin engine fighters ever designed, the Fw-187. Similarly the financial support given to the Messerschmitt company to develop the flawed Me-209/Me-309 could have been put to better use, ie the Dornier Do-335 and Fw-190D series.

Would any of these aircraft which had tremendous credentials to have entered service, had an impact on the war, or been a more viable alternative than the aircraft chosen ahead of them?

Regards to all,
Digger.

[Panzerknacker]

The Me-209/309 wasnt really good, Galland want to delete the development of those 2 and concentrate in the Fw-190A,D y Me-262 quite visionary.


Check this....

Adolph Galland's report regarding the Me 262
Berlin, 25 May 1943
Most esteemed Herr Generalfeldmarschall!
On Saturday, the 22nd of the month, I tested the ME 262 at Augsburg in the presence of Oberst Petersen and other persons from the Technical Office. I would have preferred to report personally to the Generalfeldmarschall and also elaborate on other matters, however I was so occupied after my visit to Sicily that there was simply no time. The Reichmarschall has ordered me to report today.

Concerning the Me 262, I beg to state the following:

1.) The aircraft represents an enormous leap forward, it would give us an unimaginable lead over the enemy if he adheres to the piston engine.
2.) In-flight handling of the airframe is impressive.
3.) The power plants are fully convincing, except during take-off and landing.
4.) The aircraft offers entirely new tactical prospects.
I beg to submit the following proposal: The Fw 190 D is under development, its performance should match the Me 209's in all respects. The performance of the two types, however, will not be superior to the enemy's models, particularly at altitude. The only progress seems to be in armament and higher speeds.
Conclusion: a) Me 209 be discontinued
b) Total fighter production to switch from the Fw 190 with BMW 801
to the Fw 190 with DB 603 and Jumo 213 respectively.
c) The construction and industrial capacities thus released to be
concentrated on the Me 262, with immediate effect.
I shall report immediately on my return.
Heil Hitler! Herr Generalfeldmarschall your most obedient servant.
Galland


More of this subject you can found in...

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3781

[Digger]

Galland's comments were largely ignored and funding was still being thrown into this useless programme in early 1944.

The only words that could describe the Me-209 is-it was a dog. Argubly the Me-309 was worse. These developments were a tremendous waste of resources and further convinced Erhard Milch, Professor Willy Messerschmitt was anything but a genius.

Regards to all,
Digger.

[Panzerknacker]

More pics of the failed Me-209 stufe II.

[Digger]

Milch was possibly justified in his opinions of Messerschmitt, beginning with the professor's failure to rectify technical problems with the Bf-109. In addition Messerschmitt's interference in the Me-210 project cost the German war effort dearly, nearly 1,000 modern twin engine fighters when they were most needed.

The continuing failures to develop the Me-209 as a fighter only served to sour his opinion of Messerschmitt further and lead to intrigues which may have led to Milch's own downfall in 1944.

Regards Digger.

[Panzerknacker]

failure to rectify technical problems with the Bf-109


What tecnical problems ?

[Digger]

The Messerschmitt suffered from a weak undercarriage throughout it's entire career, resulting in numerous incidents of ground loops. For the inexperienced or unwary pilot the 109 was a deadly aircraft.

This was why the He-100 with it's wider and more stable undercarriage had it's fair share of proponents.

Regards Digger.

[Panzerknacker]

It probably was more a characteristic of this desing but not really a technical problem, just think that the Spitfire had an even narrow undercarriage.

I recomend you this article:

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/109myths/

http://balsi.de/Bilder/me210.jpg

[VonWeyer]

Brilliant site Panzeknacker.
Tons of information.

[Digger]

Thanks for the link. It basically confirms many things about the 109, the most critical of which were the undercarriage and the cramped conditions of the cockpit. These were very real problems, but as it is often repeated pilot experience and training would eliminate these negatives.

Having said that as the war dragged on, short cuts were forced on the training establishment and of course the drain of more experienced pilots in the combat units played havoc with ongoing training once green pilots reached combat units.

Of course if the situation were reversed we would be looking at deficiencies in Allied aircraft. Perhaps the less known fact is late model 109's in the hands of competent pilots could match it with most Allied fighters. This has been often repeated, but largely ignored. The 109 right to the end was still capable of being a very potent fighter plane.

Regards Digger.

[Panzerknacker]

I think that the most serius disavantage of the Messer was the light armament of the F and early G series, that required some ad ons wich affected performance.

These were very real problems, but as it is often repeated pilot experience and training would eliminate these negatives

True in most cases.

[Digger]

And of course the add on armament mad the 109's very unweildy, especially at low speeds. A disastourous mix for many of the inexperienced pilots flying in the latter part of the war.

Regards Digger.

[50gunship]

How about the Ho IX? Check Out the photos.

[50gunship]

The only one still in existence is in a warehouse in Maryland.

[Panzerknacker]

How about the Ho IX



How about it, well I think that both were aerodinamical marvels of Reimar Horten.

The Ho-IX would be a excellent fighter bomber.

http://www.luft46.com/mmart/mm229n1.jpg



http://www.luft46.com/mmart/mm229-5.jpg

[GermanSoldier]

I believe their were alot of aces who drove this plane.

[50gunship]

only 1 was flyable and about 6-8 were under construction when the factory was captured

[Panzerknacker]

I believe their were alot of aces who drove this plane.

You must be confused with some else because as Gunship said no operational use of the Ho-IX were achieved.

Glider proto in flight.

http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Unbek_Helden/Ziller_Erwin/ho_ix_v1_pic2.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

2 more images of the He-100 , I think that this aircraft was the best and one of the early capable of replace the 109. This plane was the quick response of Heinkel factory after the He-112 was badly beaten by the new design of Bayerische Flugzeuwerke.
Originaly equiped with an internal radiator, wich use as evaporation surfaces the wings and fuselage of the aircraft itself. This save weigth and improve performance, mostly because the lack of external opening and low drag.
This system working well in the dedicated record aircraft He-100 V-8, but was insuitable for a truly combat aircraft. the V8 used a DB-601R engine wich was feeded by a special mixture of 90 % 100 octane fuel and 10% methanol, this allowed 1775 hp for short periods.
It take over the world speed record at 746 km/h.

http://img60.exs.cx/img60/9803/658ld.jpg

Eventually the evaporation sistem wich his intrincated pipes and electrical water pumps ( 22 to be precise) was to be abandoned because his hard maintenance and the always present risk for a combat aircraft of a failure, wich can be caused even by a single 7,7 mm bullet piercing wich would make entire sistem broke and make quick engine overheat wich bring down the plane sooner or later.
Anyway this sistem was put in the 3 D-0 series, then these Heinkels was send to japan.

http://img60.exs.cx/img60/9304/680af.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

A weird nevertheless interesting fictional experiment...he-112 with DB-605 engine.:cool:


http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/79/he112g6colorjg8.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

Aditional images of the He-100D.

http://i19.tinypic.com/52xas14.jpg


http://i12.tinypic.com/4ys2nth.jpg


http://i13.tinypic.com/4m2cmdf.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

A video of the He-100 blasting the world speed record.

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=t_yz4HB8LNI

[Major Walter Schmidt]

What about the Heinkel He 280?
http://www.mzak.cz/motory/Jumo004/He280_s1.jpg
Alternate to Me262.

[the_librarian]

Hi all,

Please pardon if this is a dupe, I scanned the thread quickly, but didn't see anything. I was over at the Army Heritage Collection and looking at a WW2 German aircraft Identification manual and saw a pic on a FW-198. I googled that and the resources I saw said it was a fictional plane.

Huh?

Why would they include a plane if it was fictional? Maybe there were a few examples flying?

[Major Walter Schmidt]

Maybe it is a misstype of the Fw189.

[Panzerknacker]

Definately , I never hear of it, there is FW-190,191 and 200, nothing in the middle.

[Tony Williams]

Please pardon if this is a dupe, I scanned the thread quickly, but didn't see anything. I was over at the Army Heritage Collection and looking at a WW2 German aircraft Identification manual and saw a pic on a FW-198. I googled that and the resources I saw said it was a fictional plane.

Huh?

Why would they include a plane if it was fictional? Maybe there were a few examples flying?

I suspect that they thought it was real at the time, which was why they included it. Only later did they find out that it didn't exist.

It wouldn't be the only time that stories of a new German plane being spotted were believed for a while, only to be found to be false. IIRC just before the war Germany deliberately deceived the rest of the world by pretending that the He-100 (or some such) was in squadron service, and several RAF pilots subsequently reported engaging them in combat!

[the_librarian]

Gotcha, I guess they had to go with what knowledge they had at the time.

thanks guys!!!