'Dora' Railroad Gun

[MrBigBoom]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1209533366135570549&q=label%3Aww2
A video of the dora railroad gun. Shows it moving, loading, and firing.

[Panzerknacker]

Lunatic gun... but very nice and heard in action.

[Panzer Ace]

Crazy!! How many men did it require to operate? What was the rate of fire? Would it not of made more sence to just bomb... using bombers?

[Panzerknacker]

Yeap, his only real advantage was the more superior accuracy compared with the Bombers of that time, but still too crazy to be builded and used.

http://sbiii.com/ordpix/dora2.jpg

[Gutkowski]

The manpower involved in assembling 'Schwere Gustav' was large, Each of the 80-cm K (E)s had a complete detachment of no less than 1,420 men under the command of a full colonel. He had his own headquarters and planning staff, and there was the main gun crew which numbered about 500, most of whom were involved with the complicated ammunition care and handling. Once in action these 500 would remain with the gun, but the rest of the gun's manpower was made up from various units including an intelligence section to determine what targets to engage. Quite a number of troops were involved in the two light anti-aircraft defence battalions that always accompanied the gun when it travelled and also supplied manpower for some assembly tasks. Once the gun was in position these AA battalions warded off unwanted aerial intruders. Two guard companies constantly patrolled the perimeter of the gun position (at one time these companies were Romanian), and at all times there was a small group of civilian technicians from Krupp who dealt with the technical aspects of their monster charge and advised the soldiers. Railway troops and the usual administrative personnel added to the manpower total.

Even using this small army of men it took between three and six weeks to assemble the gun, even using the two I 10-tonne cranes that had been designed specially for the task. just getting the right sub-assembly load into position at the right time was a masterpiece of railway marshalling and planning, but eventually it was all sorted out and by early June 1942, 'schwere Gustav' was ready, along with the rest of the siege train with all their cumbersome carriages and ammunition emplaced ready to hand.

Here is the link
http://www.aopt91.dsl.pipex.com/railgun/Content/Railwayguns/German/Dora%20index.htm

[Doug 1956]

When compared with bombers of the time the Dora was actually incredibly powerful. If fired a 7 tonne shell with an awesome concrete penetrating ability.

The only bomber in WW2, in the European theatre, that approached it in terms of penetration and destructiveness was the Lancaster with the Tallboy 10 ton bomb. The Germans did not have anything approaching that bomber and bomb combination.

However it should also be remembered that in 1943-1945 the USA was considering a weapon with a greater bore, that fired a lighter shell, that is 'Little David' for the invasion of Japan.

Any weapon system must be considered in terms of its cost effectiveness and flexibility.

The Lancaster was a multi-role aircraft in terms that it could be used for attacking a variety of targets. Little David was relatively cheap in comparison with Dora.

Dora, however, was the product of the same thinking that produced the Paris Gun of 1918 and the Maus tank. Gigantism at its worst with little regard to cost effectiveness. Of similar concept was the Yamato class battleship - huge - costly but not strategically effective given the changing nature of the war at sea 1942-1945.

The sheer energy, material and design expertise that created Dora would have been much better used in other endeavours.

[Chevan]

Hi gentlemens.
Dora for the first time was used in the Crimea in the battle for Sevastopol .


http://weltkrieg.ru/artillery/Dora/
During February 1942 after the failure of the first assault of Sevastopol the chief of the General Staff of ground forces general Galder ordered to send "Dora" into the Crimea and to transmit at the disposal of the commander of the 11th army for strengthening the siege artillery. The group of staff officers previously departed into the Crimea and selected firing position for the gun in the region of Duvankeye settlement.
For the engineering training of position were isolated 1000 field engineers even 1500 working, forcedly mobilized from the number local residents. The protection of position was laid on the guard company by the number of 300 soldiers, and also the large group of military police and the special command with the watch dogs. Furthermore, was an intensive chemical warfare subdivision the consisting of 500 people, intended for setting of smoke screen for purposes of masking from air, and an intensive artillery battalion AIR defense by the number of 400 people. The transport of "Doras" was achieved with the aid of several trains. The direct servicing of gun was laid on special 672-1 artillery battalion by number approximately 500 people, who consisted of several subdivisions, including of staff and fire batteries. In the composition of staff battery were computational groups, which produced all necessary for the focusing to target crews, and also platoon of artillery observers, in which besides conventional means (theodolites, stereoscopic telescope), was used infrared technology new for that time. The total number of personnel, drawn to servicing of gun "Dora", comprised more than 4000 people. The preparation of the firing position, located at a distance of approximately 20 km from the defensive installations of Sevastopol, ended in first half of 1942 pri this from the basic railroad line it was necessary to lay special siding track the length of 16 km after the end of preparatory works to the position were podany major portions of the gun, and began its assembling, which was being continued week. With the assembling two cranes with the Diesel engines with a power of 1000 hp, adapted.
Combat employment of an instrument did not give those results, for which was calculated the command of Wehrmacht: was fixed only one successful entry, which produced the explosion of ammunition depot, that was being located at the depth of 27 m. In the remaining cases the projectile of gun, penetrating the soil, broke through the round stem with a diameter of about 1 m and with a depth of up to 12 m. In the base of stem as a result of the explosion of warhead the soil was condensed and was formed drop-shaped cavity by diameter about 3 m. thus, defensive installations could be seriously damaged only with the direct entry of projectile into vitally important knots, which was more easily carry out with the shooting of several instruments of smaller caliber.
In all from 5 to 17 June, 1942, gun produced 48 shots on seven targets. After the taking of Sevastopol by German troops the "Dora" was transported in the environs of Leningrad into the Taytsy station. By that time from the stem of "Doras" taking into account range tests it was made the order of 300 shots, and they sent stem in view of the complete wear to the repair into Essen. Gun carriage and all the equipment, as has already been spoken above, it was transported into the region Of taytsy station, where more lately arrived the repaired stem. There it had to transport the second uniform gun "Gustav". The offensive of the Red Army deprived the Germans of the possibility to use super-power instruments in the environs of Leningrad. Since the beginning of the blockade break-through of Leningrad the guns were urgently evakuirovany into the rear.
Again used "Dora" during the Warsaw uprising in September- October of 1944 on Warsaw was released about 30 projectiles.( oh, my god!) This was a last combat of application of "Dora".


http://weltkrieg.ru/images/original/29/2853.jpghttp://weltkrieg.ru/images/original/29/2855.jpg

Briefly stated, "Dora" was the one more "miracle-weapon" of the Fuehrer, which released to air billions of doich-marks and German man-hours. Effect from this super-gun was faster psychological, than war.

[Chevan]

By the way gentlemens.
OFF TOPIC:
Do somebody know what's this great monster.
http://ft.fotoplenka.ru/ft/54/27/52754/122739/99bedd1e.jpg
http://ft.fotoplenka.ru/ft/54/27/52754/122739/27c374f3.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

Is the heavy howitzer denominated "Mörser Karl"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%B6rser_Karl

[Dani]

Dora for the first time was used in the Crimea in the battle for Sevastopol .


Sorry mate, Schwerer Gustav was deployed to Crimea. Dora was deployed in August 1942 to Stalingrad.

http://www.aopt91.dsl.pipex.com/railgun/Content/Railwayguns/German/80cm.htm

http://www.aopt91.dsl.pipex.com/railgun/Content/Railwayguns/German/Dora%20index.htm

Edited: Also another source: http://html2.free.fr/canons/dora.htm

[Chevan]

Is the heavy howitzer denominated "Mörser Karl"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%B6rser_Karl

Yes , mate , this is Karl-sister self-propelled 607-mm howitzer "Adam" in Kubinka museum.

[Chevan]

Sorry mate, Schwerer Gustav was deployed to Crimea. Dora was deployed in August 1942 to Stalingrad.


Perhaps, mate , it was Gustav in Crimea and Leningrad.
But there are no any proofs about application 800-mm gun in Stalingrad.

http://deutschewaffe.narod.ru/dora.htm
...Some Western historians advance version, that one of 80- cm installations was directed in the environs of Stalingrad and even fired city. There is no documentary confirmation of this, yes even in Stalingrad not there were worthy purposes, in contrast to Sevastopol with its underground structures and armored turrets

I think, you wiil agree that this monster cannot be used "unnoticeably". When Dora shoted in Sevastopol, entire city of heared the monstrouse reelings of shots, and the earth quaked for 10 km from gun.

There were made 3 800-mm guns in germany ("Dora" and two "Gustavs").
But just one ( documentally confirmed) had a combat application. (at least in Easterm front).
Two were exploded by germans in aipril of 1945, another one (Gustav) got into soviet hands.

During July 1946 the special group of Soviet specialists by assignment of the ministry of armaments undertook study 800- mm gun "Gustav". By group it is comprised report by description, by drawings and the photo 800- mm of instrument carry ouied work on preparation for the removal 800- mm of railroad installation "Gustav" in THE USSR.
Led Group Engineer major B. i. Zhitkov. Installation was delivered in THE USSR. In 1946 -1947 yr. the echelon with the parts 80- cm of instrument "Gustav" arrived to Stalingrad to the plant of "Barricade", where it was studied for two years. To 1950 the remains of "Gustav" they were sent for the plant range of Prudboy, where they were stored up to 1960, and then they were returned to the scrap.

[Dani]

But there are no any proofs about application 800-mm gun in Stalingrad.


Yes, it seems that Dora never had the chance to fire at Stalingrad. It was only deployed there.

[Dani]

There were made 3 800-mm guns in germany ("Dora" and two "Gustavs").


Langer Gustav was never completed.

[Chevan]

Yes, it seems that Dora never had the chance to fire at Stalingrad. It was only deployed there.

Perhaps , germans planned to apply Dora in Stalingrad , but i had never see the photo or articles about this.

Langer Gustav was never completed.

Yes , it was not completed for combat using. Red Army take the differents mehanism ( including 400-tonns barrell ). I think it was unrationally to assemble Gustav in USSR , therefore it was studied and tested just the some mehanisms.

[Lancer44]

Go to this site: http://www.warsawuprising.com/photos.htm

Scroll down to; "Weapons" and see Karl Morser in action.
I think this site is pretty reliable. They stating that Karl was first time used against Sevastopol fortress and next time Warsaw.

Cheers,

Lancer44

[FW-190 Pilot]

i dont get it, if the German realize that lightning war can bring them the results, they would know its the result of tactic, not very much on the weapon or how big you can build a tank.

[50gunship]

Depending on your source there were 2-3 80cm cannons built. Based on what I could find I think there were only at best 2. I know that a extra barrel was produced and that one was found a the krup test facility.

Dora facts:
Weight of gun and mounting: 1,350 t

Length of gun: 47.3 m

Height of gun: 11.6 m

Width of gun: 7.1 m

Barrel length: 32.48 m

Propulsion 2 x Oil Electric D311 691 kW locomotives (DRG class V188)

Maximum elevation: 48° (or 65°; sources differ, may refer to different mountings)

Weight of propellant charge: 2,500 lb (1134 kg) in 3 increments.

Rate of fire: 1 round every 30 to 45 minutes or typically 14 rounds a day.

Accuracy: 20% (10 out of 48) of shells fell within 60 m of target point. Worst error was 1 shell landing 740 m from the target point. Assuming normal distribution, this gives a CEP of 190 m.

Crew: 250 to assemble the gun in 3 days (54 hours), 2,500 to lay track and dig embankments, which would take 3 - 6 weeks depending on the geography of the land. 2 Flak battalions to protect the gun from air attack.

[50gunship]

Ammunition:

High Explosive

Weight of projectile: 4.8 t (4,800 kg)

Muzzle velocity: 820 m/s

Maximum range: 48 km

Explosive mass: 700 kg

Crater size: 30 ft (10 m) wide 30 ft (10 m) deep.

AP Shell

The main body was made of chrome-nickel steel, fitted with an aluminium alloy ballistic nose cone.

Length of shell: 3.6 m

Weight of projectile: 7.1 t (7,100 kg)

Muzzle velocity: 720 m/s

Maximum range: 38 km

Explosive mass: 250 kg

Penetration: 264 ft (80 m) of reinforced concrete was claimed, but this seems extremely unlikely. In testing it was demonstrated to penetrate 7 metres of concrete at maximum elevation (beyond that available during combat) with a special charge

Notes:
80 cm "Schwerer Gustav" (Heavy Gustav) - Deployed in March 1942 against Sevastopol.

80 cm "Dora" - Deployed against Stalingrad in September 1942. Possibly never fired.

[50gunship]

Deployment

Schwerer Gustav
In February 1942 Heavy Artillery Unit (E) 672 reorganised and went on the march, and Schwerer Gustav began its long ride to the Crimea. The train carrying the gun was 25 cars long, a total length of 1.6 km. The gun reached the Perekop Isthmus in early March 1942, where it was held until early April. A special railway spur was built to the Simferopol-Sevastopol railway 10 miles (16 km) north of the target, at the end of which four semi-circular tracks were built specially for the Gustav. The siege of Sevastopol was to be the gun's first combat test. Positioning of the gun began in early May, and by 5 June the gun was ready to fire. The following targets were engaged:

5 June
Coastal guns at a range of 25,000 m. Eight shells fired.
Fort Stalin. Six shells fired.

6 June
Fort Molotov. Seven shells fired.
The White Cliff: an undersea ammunition magazine in Severnaya Bay. The magazine was sited 30 meters under the sea with at least 10 meters of concrete protection. After nine shells were fired the magazine was ruined and many of the boats in the bay were damaged.

7 June
Firing in support of an infantry attack on Sudwestspitze, an outlying fortification. Seven shells fired.

11 June
Fort Siberia. Five shells fired.

17 June
Fort Maxim Gorki and its Coastal battery. Five shells fired.
By the end of the siege on July 4th the city of Sevastopol lay in ruins, 30,000 tons of artillery ammunition had been fired. Gustav had fired 48 rounds and worn out its original barrel, which had already fired around 250 rounds during testing and development. The gun was fitted with the spare barrel and the original was sent back to Krupp's factory in Essen for relining.

The gun was then dismantled and moved to the northern part of the eastern front, where an attack was planned on Leningrad. The gun was placed some 30 km from the city near the railway station of Taizy. The gun was fully operational when the attack was cancelled. The gun then spent the winter of 1942/43 near Leningrad.

When the German retreat began the gun was moved back to the west where it fired 30 rounds into the Warsaw Ghetto during the 1944 uprising.

The gun then appears to have been destroyed to prevent its capture sometime before April 22, 1945, when its ruins were discovered in a forest 15 km (9 miles) north of Auerbach about 50 km (31 miles) southwest of Chemnitz.


Dora
Dora was the second gun to be produced. It was deployed briefly against Stalingrad, where the gun arrived at its emplacement 15 km (9 miles) to the west of the city sometime in mid-August 1942. It was ready to fire on September 13th. However, it was quickly withdrawn when Soviet encirclement threatened; when the Germans began their long retreat they took Dora with them. Dora was broken up before the end of the war, being discovered in the west by American troops some time after the discovery of Schwerer Gustav.

[50gunship]

Anybody have pics or plans for the version of Dora that was to be driven across country in order to get around damaged sections of track? I have been told that it was to be supported by 2 tiger tanks with turrets removed. I have an artiest rendering somewhere (i think) and will try to scan it into my computer tomorrow. Any help would be nice.

[50gunship]

Here is some video of the gun, as well as a 21cm gun and an 60cm morter.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1209533366135570549&q=dora+gun&hl=en

As for the tiger tank mover here is some info on an idea for moveing the Krupp K5 28cm gun.

Several other proposals were made to modify or create new models of the K5 which never saw production. In particular, there were a number of plans for a model which could leave the railway by use of specially modified Tiger II tank chassis which would support the mounting box in much the same manner as the railway weapon's two bogies. This project was finally ended by the capitulation of Germany.

[50gunship]

Here are some enplacement photos.

[50gunship]

Some more...

[50gunship]

Yet more...

[50gunship]

More still...

[50gunship]

Here you go that's it for now...

[GermanSoldier]

It was a powerful gun, but I think they should have found a diffferent way to transport it. I also think that it was not used as well as it was capable of.

[50gunship]

I think there is only one word that can describe it and that is,

WOW!!

[Panzerknacker]

Very good gallery thanks.


Anybody have pics or plans for the version of Dora that was to be driven across country in order to get around damaged sections of track? I have been told that it was to be supported by 2 tiger tanks with turrets removed. I have an artiest rendering somewhere (i think) and will try to scan it into my computer tomorrow. Any help would be nice



That would be the P-1500 "Monster"


http://www.panzerschreck.de/panzer/pzkpfw/bilder/p1500.jpg

[50gunship]

No, the one i was looking for was supported by 2 converted tiger tanks, there was an idea for one to move the k5 guns arround damaged tracks and that is the one i am looking for. The 1500toner is just odd and i have seen many artist renderings of the side and front view's. I should have said k5 not dora, sorry. If you want ill post the images of the 1500 toner.