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Jasa
07-30-2006, 07:58 AM
How was the USSR a big mistake? Russia was one of the most backward countries in the Western world in 1917, and in the period of about 1928 to 1940 it became an industrial power rivaling and even exceeding that of many Western powers. It brought education, electricity, and health care to formerly illiterate peasants.

To quote Winston Churchill...

"Stalin came to Russia with a wooden plow and left it with atomic bombs."

Chevan
07-30-2006, 08:43 AM
How was the USSR a big mistake? Russia was one of the most backward countries in the Western world in 1917, and in the period of about 1928 to 1940 it became an industrial power rivaling and even exceeding that of many Western powers. It brought education, electricity, and health care to formerly illiterate peasants.

To quote Winston Churchill...

"Stalin came to Russia with a wooden plow and left it with atomic bombs."
OFF TOPIC:
USSR lose the information war with the West and it was unable to resist "western values".
BUT it's not mean that some ideas of social equality (in USSR) was wrong.

Jasa
07-30-2006, 08:55 AM
OFF TOPIC:
USSR lose the information war with the West and it was unable to resist "western values".
BUT it's not mean that some ideas of social equality (in USSR) was wrong.

It WOULD have been able to had the correct line of Lenin and Stalin been followed. Clearly the Soviet era, even in the declining decades of Khruschev, Brezhnev- was far better in terms of standards of living than pre-revolutionary times or today.

We must analyze the specific reasons for the problems and reconstruct the correct line in the future. Russia will never prosper or be respected otherwise, even under Putin.

Chevan
07-30-2006, 09:16 AM
It WOULD have been able to had the correct line of Lenin and Stalin been followed. Clearly the Soviet era, even in the declining decades of Khruschev, Brezhnev- was far better in terms of standards of living than pre-revolutionary times or today.

We must analyze the specific reasons for the problems and reconstruct the correct line in the future. Russia will never prosper or be respected otherwise, even under Putin.
I aggree wits you. Russia must revalue or reconstruct its past in order to correct line in the future.

Lancer44
07-31-2006, 07:44 AM
It WOULD have been able to had the correct line of Lenin and Stalin been followed. Clearly the Soviet era, even in the declining decades of Khruschev, Brezhnev- was far better in terms of standards of living than pre-revolutionary times or today.

We must analyze the specific reasons for the problems and reconstruct the correct line in the future. Russia will never prosper or be respected otherwise, even under Putin.

Very interesting point of view...
I would say every member of the Forum should read this.
Very educational.

"correct line" .... of Lenin and Stalin..."
"We must ....reconstruct the correct line in the future"...

Before WWII no one bothered to read Mein Kampf. Pity, everything was clearly disclosed there.

Perhaps now the clue to the future can be read from forums like ours?

Cheers,

Lancer44

Jasa
07-31-2006, 08:23 AM
Very interesting point of view...
I would say every member of the Forum should read this.
Very educational.

"correct line" .... of Lenin and Stalin..."
"We must ....reconstruct the correct line in the future"...

Before WWII no one bothered to read Mein Kampf. Pity, everything was clearly disclosed there.

Perhaps now the clue to the future can be read from forums like ours?

Cheers,

Lancer44

The two cannot be compared.

Kovalski
07-31-2006, 08:35 AM
I know it's OFF-TOPIC but I had to write this.
How it is possible, that a State which suffered so much from cruel ideology as communism was, allows its population to believe in so mad and suicidal theory? Why the communist propaganda wasn't forbidden in Russia immediately after collapse of Soviet Union?
Maybe we wouldn't have had this discussion if some of forum members hadn't been exposed to disastrous influence of Russia's history.
For example, in Germany it is constitutionally forbidden by law (The Constitution) to propagate nazi ideology. Of course it is not possible to eliminate totally the spreading of nazism among some people, but the society has the grounds to prosecute them.
The reason it is clear - the nazi ideology was LETHAL for Germans.
I think we can find the cause of such difference between Germany and Russia if we take closer look at the State's attiutude towards the society.
In Russia, the society was never a subject. Always a object. Only some tiny groups of privileged nobles had some rights. But whole society?
Never.
It was always treated as a object.
That's why nobody cares about their state of mind, what they believe etc.
The State doesn't care if the society's beliefs are fatal.
The only thing that matters is obedience. Nothing has changed.
There's no need to improve society's political and historical awerness as long as it remains obedient.

I hope you'll never reconstruct the "correct line ... of Lenin and Stalin in the future".
It would be better for you to create a society aware of its rights and strong enough to get rid of rules who don't respect their own nation.
I wish you that Jasa, Chevan and others.

Jasa
07-31-2006, 09:01 AM
Could it be that most Russian people know that the propaganda against the USSR is mostly bullshit? Could it be that the fall of Communism and the opening of secret archives actually REFUTED most of this propaganda? Russia survived WWII because of Stalin. Russian had literacy because of Stalin. Russians had free education, housing, health care, and food because of Josef Stalin. Their life-expectancy DOUBLED because of Josef Stalin.

Privatization and the restoration of capitalism is what ruined Russia, not Marxist-Leninism.

Kovalski
07-31-2006, 09:20 AM
I think that Russia would survive the WW2 war because it was Russia and the Russians - no merit for Josef Stalin.

Homo-sovieticus are also because of Josef Stalin. Extermination of milions of Russians is also because of Josef Stalin. Murder of Russia's intelectual elites is also because of Josef Stalin. Pollution is also because of Josef Stalin. Creation of economy able to produce weapons instead of hi-tech is also because of Josef Stalin. Moral and cultural degradation of a whole nation is also because of Josef Stalin. Creation of the largest slave-work camp that ever existed is also because of Josef Stalin.
Yes, there are plenty of things you should thank Josef Stalin.

By the way, there was nothing to ruin when SU collapsed.

Dani
07-31-2006, 09:23 AM
Could it be that most Russian people know that the propaganda against the USSR is mostly bullshit? Could it be that the fall of Communism and the opening of secret archives actually REFUTED most of this propaganda? Russia survived WWII because of Stalin. Russian had literacy because of Stalin. Russians had free education, housing, health care, and food because of Josef Stalin. Their life-expectancy DOUBLED because of Josef Stalin.

Privatization and the restoration of capitalism is what ruined Russia, not Marxist-Leninism.

Masterpiece of communist propaganda. I wonder how should be if a member would start to praise and apologise the nazi regime.

Nothing more to comment, nothing more to add from my side.

Jasa
07-31-2006, 09:25 AM
I think that Russia would survive the WW2 war because it was Russia and the Russians - no merit for Josef Stalin.

Homo-sovieticus are also because of Josef Stalin. Extermination of milions of Russians is also because of Josef Stalin. Murder of Russia's intelectual elites is also because of Josef Stalin. Pollution is also because of Josef Stalin. Creation of economy able to produce weapons instead of hi-tech is also because of Josef Stalin. Moral and cultural degradation of a whole nation is also because of Josef Stalin. Creation of the largest slave-work camp that ever existed is also because of Josef Stalin.
Yes, there are plenty of things you should thank Josef Stalin.

By the way, there was nothing to ruin when SU collapsed.


1. There is no evidence that Stalin "killed millions of people".

2. The country NEEDED heavy industry, not consumer goods. Stalin considered that option but had he done so, the nation would have been crushed by the Nazis. The problems relating to consumer goods can be laid at the feet of Khruschev and his followers.

3. Nothing to ruin? I know of about 150 million people that beg to differ.

4. Are you even FROM Poland? You sure as hell don't live there. How many Poles bitch about Communism and praise their new "free country" and yet won't even live there? Poland's biggest export since its "freedom" is Polish people. The west is happy to exploit them for cheap labor and in the case of women- even worse.

Jasa
07-31-2006, 09:30 AM
Masterpiece of communist propaganda. I wonder how should be if a member would start to praise and apologise the nazi regime.

Nothing more to comment, nothing more to add from my side.


It's common knowledge that privatisation led to the collapse of the Soviet economy. It is also established that this privatisation was conscious and deliberate.

Dani
07-31-2006, 09:33 AM
.
4. Are you even FROM Poland? You sure as hell don't live there. How many Poles bitch about Communism and praise their new "free country" and yet won't even live there? Poland's biggest export since its "freedom" is Polish people. The west is happy to exploit them for cheap labor and in the case of women- even worse.

I will ask you Jasa the same question. Are you a Czech or are you a Russian working in Czech Republic??
If you are a Czech, do you remember Prague 1968?
If you are a Russian, are you happy working in Czech Republic?

Dani
07-31-2006, 09:38 AM
Shortly a new thread will be split within the existing thread.

Edited: Done.

Jasa
07-31-2006, 09:41 AM
I will ask you Jasa the same question. Are you a Czech or are you a Russian working in Czech Republic??
If you are a Czech, do you remember Prague 1968?
If you are a Russian, are you happy working in Czech Republic?


I am an American citizen of Western Ukrainian descent who moved here, and I am soon moving to Podolsk. I prefer European society.

What happened in 1968 is simply a testament to the bungling and degeneration that occured after Stalin.

PS- Do you have a membership on MootStormfront?

Dani
07-31-2006, 09:52 AM
IWhat happened in 1968 is simply a testament to the bungling and degeneration that occured after Stalin.
and of course Berlin 1953 and Budapest 1956 were the same, weren't it?


PS- Do you have a membership on MootStormfront?
Never heard of MootStormfront.
As for Stormfront, we had a member. It was banned due to his racist posts.

As for
I am an American citizen
you should thanks USA for your freedom of speech (including the freedom to praise the communist ideology).

I bet that you didn't live for a minute under the communists. I've met a lot of Westerners praising the communists as an ideology. Westerners that don't have a clue how it was under a communist regime.

Kovalski
07-31-2006, 09:53 AM
You would question the planets of Solar System beacuse you can't see them.
There is no sense to discuss with you about Stalin's crimes.
You're not able to accept historical facts.
The whole world is lying about that genocide, because it wants to humiliate Great Russia and its heroes...
Yeah, right...

The scale of emmigration is one of the largest polish problems.
But soon it will beacome a problem of whole Europe - because cheap polish workers are taking positions of local workers in the West.
If I were you I would start to worry when Poland decide to lift the visas for Russians. How many of you will come to Poland? And how many of you are already here?

And finally, the case of exploit of Polish women in the West has few times smaller propotions than the case of expoit of Russian women to the West from Russia's border.
I would not like to discuss such matters, so please do not start with such arguments.


Why you're trying to miss the point? Why are asking about the Poles?
Are you afraid of answers?

Sneaksie
07-31-2006, 01:33 PM
Why the communist propaganda wasn't forbidden in Russia immediately after collapse of Soviet Union?
For example, in Germany it is constitutionally forbidden by law (The Constitution) to propagate nazi ideology.
I think we can find the cause of such difference between Germany and Russia if we take closer look at the State's attiutude towards the society.
In Russia, the society was never a subject. Always a object.
I hope you'll never reconstruct the "correct line ... of Lenin and Stalin in the future".

Yeltsin forbid communist party of USSR, not the ideology. Immediately after that communist party of Russia was made (and parties in Ukraine, Belarus...).
Germany and nazi ideology were defeated, so its no wonder this ideology is forbidden (but you are welcome with this ideology in Baltic countries today). Winners write the history.
Subject and object. No. It's other difference.
It's a fundamental difference between distinct civilizations, judging what is paramount - society or a individual. It was always individual in the West, and always society, collective, country in Russia. Thus ideals are completely different. If
About correct line about Stalin.
There is famous quote of him - "The garbage which will be piled on my tomb by descendants will be blown off by wind of history".


I think that Russia would survive the WW2 war because it was Russia and the Russians - no merit for Josef Stalin.

You cant fight with pure heroism in modern world, you need heavy industry. Tzarism was corrupted to the core, so it's no wonder WW1 was lost by Russia and revolution erupted, the country was desolate. Another famous Stalin quote is from 1930: "We are behind capitalist countries for 50-100 years. We must pass all this way in 10 years or we will be crushed." Without industrialization USSR could not hope to stop the Germans - they would have stop themselves on Arkhangelsk-Astrakhan line which was the whole point of Barbarossa;)


Extermination of milions of Russians is also because of Josef Stalin.During 1921-1954 (Stalun's rule) 642980 were judged to highest measure of punishment (shot). Compare with around 2400000 executed during 1919-1921.


Murder of Russia's intelectual elites is also because of Josef Stalin.
These 'murdered' elites made sure the first man in space was Russian, for example.


Pollution is also because of Josef Stalin.
What pollution?


Creation of economy able to produce weapons instead of hi-tech is also because of Josef Stalin.
Weapons industry = high-tech industry.


Moral and cultural degradation of a whole nation is also because of Josef Stalin.
Moral and cultural degradation took place during late years of USSR, because national idea was lost. The peak of degradation was during Yeltsin rule.


By the way, there was nothing to ruin when SU collapsed.
Oh? Nothing to ruin? Where do you think bastards like Abramovich and Berezovsky took their enormous amounts of money? By selling lemonade during hot days? Most part of former USSR infrastructure and industry was plundered by such men which were close to Yeltsin clan. The same was in other descendants of USSR, with the exception of Belarus.

temujin77
07-31-2006, 05:15 PM
There is no evidence that Stalin "killed millions of people".

You need to read more.

Lancer44
07-31-2006, 07:35 PM
Reading carefully every post in this debate I started really worry about future of Europe...
Last night I took George Orwell's "1984" and started to read this book again.
Some arguments in this debate are straight from "1984".
It is freightening...

Lancer44

Sneaksie
08-01-2006, 04:09 AM
Reading carefully every post in this debate I started really worry about future of Europe...

Why are you worried?

Lancer44
08-01-2006, 06:02 AM
Why are you worried?

I answer honestly, but promise not to take it personally. Nothing against anyone.

I'm worried bacause I'm able to count. This Forum has got 611 members, most of them inactive and only 122 active ones.
If between 122 people from many countries, I can see four specimens like you, Sturmfurer, Chevan and finally "icing on the cake" - bizarre Jasa, it is serious reason to worry.
It is vacation time in Europe and I'm afraid your ranks will grow in Autumn.

I know that you don't and will not understand anything, but please realise that for me and many other members it is reallly difficult to meet people which follow your strange mixture of stalinism and red/brown socialism sprinkled with a bit of paranoia. It is nearly impossible in Australia.

As I said, I voiced my opinion about political views openly expressed here and don't hold any personal grudges.

Cheers,

Lancer44

Jasa
08-01-2006, 07:26 AM
You need to read more.


No, you need to present evidence.

Jasa
08-01-2006, 07:29 AM
and of course Berlin 1953 and Budapest 1956 were the same, weren't it?

Nope. Much different.




As for
you should thanks USA for your freedom of speech (including the freedom to praise the communist ideology).

Why? I don't live there anymore and furthermore freedom of speech is more or less useless except to those who can afford to disseminate their "speech" in a significant fashion.



I bet that you didn't live for a minute under the communists. I've met a lot of Westerners praising the communists as an ideology. Westerners that don't have a clue how it was under a communist regime.

No I didn't, but I know plenty of people that lived for decades under those regimes. Somehow they got by.

Jasa
08-01-2006, 07:31 AM
Reading carefully every post in this debate I started really worry about future of Europe...
Last night I took George Orwell's "1984" and started to read this book again.
Some arguments in this debate are straight from "1984".
It is freightening...

Lancer44


You SHOULD be worried about the future of Europe.

Here's what you should worry about:

1. Massive non-European immigration, spurred on by economic factors and the capitalist system.

2. Forced sex-slavery and women trafficking, partiuclarly Eastern European women, including, POLES and ROMANIANS(particularly Romanians; see Viktor Malarek's The Natashas).

3. Declining birthrates

4. Widescale privatization

5. Interventionalist wars around the world.


THAT is what you should worry about.

Kovalski
08-01-2006, 07:39 AM
Subject and object. No. It's other difference.
It's a fundamental difference between distinct civilizations, judging what is paramount - society or a individual. It was always individual in the West, and always society, collective, country in Russia. Thus ideals are completely different.

Anyway, there's a difference which doesn't allow Russian society to develop.


You cant fight with pure heroism in modern world, you need heavy industry.

You're absolutely right.


Without industrialization USSR could not hope to stop the Germans - they would have stop themselves on Arkhangelsk-Astrakhan line which was the whole point of Barbarossa;)

Right, but we got to remeber what was the true reason of developement of heavy industry in Soviet Union. Not a self-defence.


During 1921-1954 (Stalun's rule) 642980 were judged to highest measure of punishment (shot). Compare with around 2400000 executed during 1919-1921.

Don't try to make me believe that only oficially sentenced to death were murdered in SU. Please, we are not kids here.



Weapons industry = high-tech industry.

False.
So why was KGB forced to steal hi-tech in the West?
Soviet factiories were able to produce only heavy tanks etc.
How competitive was SU's IT industry when compared to Japan or U.S.?
That's why Soviet Union had lost Cold War. Because it was technologically underdeveloped.



Moral and cultural degradation took place during late years of USSR, because national idea was lost. The peak of degradation was during Yeltsin rule.

Creation of homo-sovieticus was one of the greatest tragedies in russian history. It started long before Yeltsin.
Regarding to cultural degradation - so called real socialism in art, film, etc.
The great potential of a nation was almost totally wiped out for over 70 years.
And please, don't try to prove that "real socialism" has something in common with true art.
And what about the cult of Stalin? :)
What positive influence it had on morality and culture of russian society?

When I wrote about "nothing to ruin" I meant a economic potential of Soviet Union. Not the material goods, because it's unquestionable that some of them had great worth.
The fact is that your economy was ruined and had not a single chance for competition with western states.

I'm sorry, don't have a time to answer rest of the questions. I'll try later.

Lancer44
08-01-2006, 07:51 AM
No I didn't, but I know plenty of people that lived for decades under those regimes. Somehow they got by.

That's right .... "Somehow they got by"...

And you Jasa don't have any idea how they did it.
I have a feeling that you would not survive... nor get by.
You or rather your political beliefs are too bizarre to render you to be either party official in communist time or oppositionist in the same time.
You don't understand that communism was essentially monstrous corruption flung far away from any real life of ordinary people. This corruption started right in 1917 and grew enormously in Lenin and Stalin era, to surface and degenerate into petty meddling called socialist evolution in, what you call "decline" during Kruschev, Breznhev eras.

And you would just simply perish without a trace in this maze...
Mate, I can't give you even a single year in any of ex-communist countries, doesn't matter, Poland, Romania, Czechoslovakia, USSR... no way...
In DDR you would not last six month...

I hope Moderators and Members of the Forum will forgive me personal approach to this post but I believe that it is impossible to go around it.
I'm remaining friendly to Jasa - I just expressed my opinion about his ... ehm... opinions...

OFF TOPIC - sorry, but essential to understand meritum of this dispute...
Can you tell us how old you are?
How often you visited Ukraine?

Cheers,

Lancer44

Edited to change spelling and moderate one sentence.

Sneaksie
08-01-2006, 09:25 AM
I know that you don't and will not understand anything, but please realise that for me and many other members it is reallly difficult to meet people which follow your strange mixture of stalinism and red/brown socialism sprinkled with a bit of paranoia. It is nearly impossible in Australia.

The fact that we oppose you about your black vision of USSR does not mean alone that we are stalinists or brown socialists (wtf? did anyone here said something praising fascism?) You blame USSR in every crime you can imagine and then find it difficult to understand why we are defending it. And talking about paranoia - what made you say that? It is you and your colleagues who talk about empire of evil which wanted to enslave the world and such stuff. There exactly same propaganda against Russia as it was against USSR, it was just 'Russia' in western newspapers during Cold War. Open NY Times, Wall Street Journal today - nothing has changed. Even authors sometimes are the same. The same people who planned nuclear attack plans against USSR like "Rainbow" or "Dropshot" are currently rule US. The hate is the same. So it's not surprising Russians dislike anti-USSR propaganda as they dislike anti-Russia propaganda. Most russians in 90 were thinking that US and other democratic countries are friends. Realization of truth was grim.


Anyway, there's a difference which doesn't allow Russian society to develop.
To develop what? To become another war-mongering democratic country like USA? No, thanks. To become another quiet european democratic country? Not gonna happen. Liberal democracy is not the only way, and only tenth of world population thinks it is or just live in such country. The fun thing is - the real victor in Cold War was China. What is democratic or liberal in China? Nothing. Yet it's growth of power is astonishing. It's laughable when some politician or just journalist begins to teach Russia how it MUST develop democracy. Russia will develop any kind of democracy or not democracy as it wants.


Right, but we got to remeber what was the true reason of developement of heavy industry in Soviet Union. Not a self-defence.
I see what you mean, but it's like calling the true reason of development the invasion to Mars. In fact it was not only question of self-defence, it was question of survival. I dislike conspiracy theories of any kind in any country, and idea of USSR world conquest is meanest of them all.


Don't try to make me believe that only oficially sentenced to death were murdered in SU. Please, we are not kids here.
Then you are up to imagination. Choose any number of "unofficially murdered" you like, it only cant exceed the population of USSR:rolleyes:


False.
So why was KGB forced to steal hi-tech in the West?
Soviet factiories were able to produce only heavy tanks etc.
How competitive was SU's IT industry when compared to Japan or U.S.?
That's why Soviet Union had lost Cold War. Because it was technologically underdeveloped.
You mean that rocket industry for example isn't high-tech?
The reasons of USSR losing Cold War are many, and most of them economical and political. Technological underdevelopment was in computers field and it was felt during 80s only. Too little reason to loose Cold War.


Creation of homo-sovieticus was one of the greatest tragedies in russian history. It started long before Yeltsin.
Regarding to cultural degradation - so called real socialism in art, film, etc.
The great potential of a nation was almost totally wiped out for over 70 years.
And please, don't try to prove that "real socialism" has something in common with true art.
And what about the cult of Stalin?
What positive influence it had on morality and culture of russian society?

When I wrote about "nothing to ruin" I meant a economic potential of Soviet Union. Not the material goods, because it's unquestionable that some of them had great worth.
The fact is that your economy was ruined and had not a single chance for competition with western states.

I don't really understand what you mean by homo-sovieticus and why it was a greatest tragedy. Art direction in USSR was 'socrealism'. It's preference of an individual what kind of art he likes, for me it's far better than triangles and rectangles of cubism and such, although i like impressionism. Anyway, i won't call socrealism death of true art or something.
Cult of Stalin. There was a cult of his personality, but there was personality itself. I don't think there was impact on morale, cult of personality was like adoration of monarch or so.
Not had any chance of competition - USSR almost alone competed with capitalist world and survived 73 years. Will for example Israel survive against arab world for such time, even with enormous help from USA? Ask jews about is it easy or not:)

Sneaksie
08-01-2006, 09:31 AM
And you would just simply perish without a trace in this maze...
Mate, I can't give you even a single year in any of ex-communist countries, doesn't matter, Poland, Romania, Czechoslovakia, USSR... no way...
In DDR you would not last six month...


And how exactly Jasa would 'perish' in a year or half-year? What would be done to him?

Jasa
08-01-2006, 10:54 AM
That's right .... "Somehow they got by"...

And you Jasa don't have any idea how they did it.

Clearly you don't either.



I have a feeling that you would not survive... nor get by.

Let's see, dirt cheap rent, free health care, free education to university level, secure jobs- I would fare a lot better than I did in the US.



You or rather your political beliefs are too bizarre to render you to be either party official in communist time or oppositionist in the same time.

How is a follower of Marxist-Leninism too bizarre in a Marxist-Leninist state?




You don't understand that communism was essentially monstrous corruption flung far away from any real life of ordinary people. This corruption started right in 1917 and grew enormously in Lenin and Stalin era, to surface and degenerate into petty meddling called socialist evolution in, what you call "decline" during Kruschev, Breznhev eras.

Damn, if only there was some PROOF of that- and if only there wasn't so much raw data and documentary evidence to the contrary!!!



And you would just simply perish without a trace in this maze...

What, like all those homeless people in Eastern Europe now?



Mate, I can't give you even a single year in any of ex-communist countries, doesn't matter, Poland, Romania, Czechoslovakia, USSR... no way...
In DDR you would not last six month...

Wow, then how did those MILLIONS OF PEOPLE SOMEHOW MAKE IT THROUGH? And why have so many DIED or fled their countries AFTER IT FELL?



I hope Moderators and Members of the Forum will forgive me personal approach to this post but I believe that it is impossible to go around it.
I'm remaining friendly to Jasa - I just expressed my opinion about his ... ehm... opinions...

Do you even LIVE in Poland? Would you even live in Poland? Or are you just going to cheer for capitalism while not facing what it has done to your country?

Jasa
08-01-2006, 11:03 AM
Anyway, there's a difference which doesn't allow Russian society to develop.

What difference?



Right, but we got to remeber what was the true reason of developement of heavy industry in Soviet Union. Not a self-defence.

Excuse me? The true reason was specifically self-defense. In case you didn't notice, about 14 different powers invaded the Soviet Union after its birth, and then, EXACTLY as Stalin predicted, almost down to the YEAR- Nazi Germany and her allies invaded the USSR with the intent of driving all Slavs there behind the Urals.



Don't try to make me believe that only oficially sentenced to death were murdered in SU. Please, we are not kids here.

If you want to believe that, fine. But here's the problem- you have no proof of those who were not sentenced to death. This is why they couldn't say at the Nuremburg Trials: "Well, we can get you for about 11 million people(including non-Jews here), but I bet you probably killed another 7 million at Auchwitz and just covered it up!"



Creation of homo-sovieticus was one of the greatest tragedies in russian history. It started long before Yeltsin.

Really? And I guess the oligarchs are SO much better?



Regarding to cultural degradation - so called real socialism in art, film, etc.
The great potential of a nation was almost totally wiped out for over 70 years.

What the HELL are you talking about? Were you not aware of Russia's condition in 1917? Stalin turned the USSR into an international power in just ten years- FROM A COUNTRY THAT WAS 50 TO 100 YEARS BEHIND!

Oh and when is that "cultural renaissance" supposed to happen now that Communism is no longer in Europe? Why is it late?




And what about the cult of Stalin? :)

Stalin got credit for what he deserves. That is why he is still popular today with people of all ages while "liberators" like Yeltsin and Gorbachev are despised as the traitors and theives that they are.



What positive influence it had on morality and culture of russian society?

Right, because Eastern European society is FAR more moral now right? If I am not mistaken didn't the Pope have to VISIT Poland in the mid-nineties to remind them that CATHOLICS AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE HAVING SO MANY ABORTIONS? So much for that freedom of religion.



The fact is that your economy was ruined and had not a single chance for competition with western states.

It was ruined deliberately in order to strengthen the capitalists. Then it REALLY collapsed when capitalism took over. Other than that it clearly WAS competing with Western States before.

Jasa
08-01-2006, 11:11 AM
Sneaksie is right- this isn't about Communism anyway. It is about Russia and only Russia; nothing has changed. There was no peace after the Cold War; America and the West went on the offensive and started forcing countries to do what they want. Russia is constantly criticized for not being "democratic enough". Democratic for whom? Which people? The Western businessmen and tourists? The Russian businessmen? Or what about...GASP! the Russian people as a whole?

Ethnic nationalism is still alive and well in Europe despite the fact that capitalists are still flooding their own countries with foreign immigrants.

Dani
08-01-2006, 02:30 PM
You SHOULD be worried about the future of Europe.

Here's what you should worry about:

[...]
2. Forced sex-slavery and women trafficking, partiuclarly Eastern European women, including, POLES and ROMANIANS(particularly Romanians; see Viktor Malarek's The Natashas).
[...]

I recognize here IRONMAN's style.
Correction: Victor Malarek, who is of Ukrainian descent, has been a journalist for more than thirty years and currently works as a reporter for CTV Television in Canada.

They are women and girls, some as young as 12, from all over the Eastern bloc, where sinister networks of organized crime have become entrenched in the aftermath of the collapse of Communist regimes. In Israel, they're called Natashas, whether they're actually from Russia, Bosnia, the Czech Republic, or Ukraine, no matter what their real names may be.

Ukraine's view in the early stages of the trafficking problem in the post-Soviet era was largely that the problem was not its responsibility. The women were, after all, living abroad. Although Ukraine has adopted anti-trafficking legislation, the law has yielded few arrests and even fewer penalties for those convicted. Ukrainian NGO La Strada had complained that the punishments meted out for those convicted were regarded as little more than slaps on the wrist. To be fair, most of the new (13-year-old post-Soviet) governments are faced with nearly insurmountable economic, social and health problems, such as the HIV/AIDS crisis, and trafficking may not be at the top of their list of matters to address (although this is no excuse for tolerating abusive behavior). To be honest, the attitudes in these countries are more often than not that the women would not be found in the slavery-like conditions if they had not "asked for it."

Mr. Malarek has given the rights for translation and publication in Ukraine in order to make the book available for free in that country. He hopes that his book will act as a wake up call to the plight of the trafficked and abused victims, and to the pervasive hypocrisy surrounding the feeble attempts to address their needs.

Mate, Poland is in the European Union. Romania will join European Union on 1st of January 2007. Mainly this is a problem of Russia (see "do you want a Russian bride? call ..."). Ukraine and all former Soviet Republics. Central and European countries have found their way to prosperity. On the other hand in whole Central and Eastern Europe you'll never find so many billionaries like in Russia...

I suspect that you agree 100% with Vladimir Jirinovski, isn't it?

Kovalski
08-01-2006, 03:49 PM
What difference?

Just read the posts more carefully.:)



Really? And I guess the oligarchs are SO much better?

Be advised that I don't defend nor justify present situation in Russia and people who are responsible for it.


What the HELL are you talking about?

I'm just trying to say that Lenin, Stalin and their friend are the worst what could ever happend to Russia. But apparently you see it in a different way. Ok, it's your choice.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kovalski
"What positive influence it had on morality and culture of russian society?"

Right, because Eastern European society is FAR more moral now right? If I am not mistaken didn't the Pope have to VISIT Poland in the mid-nineties to remind them that CATHOLICS AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE HAVING SO MANY ABORTIONS? So much for that freedom of religion.


Come on! Why do you always avoid answer when you are asked a difficult question???

Chevan
08-01-2006, 06:18 PM
Hi everybody.
I see gentlemens, our discussion acquire pure political sense.
Why not?
I don't wish to defend communism (as some of you think). It's pointless.
But i think Jasa touched very interesting theme about social equality.
I excellently know that this problem has in all Eastern Europeans countries ( Russia too). The problem of "wild capitalism" actualy almost of all ours countries.
I just smile when Dani wrote


Poland is in the European Union. Romania will join European Union on 1st of January 2007. Mainly this is a problem of Russia (see "do you want a Russian bride? call ..."). Ukraine and all former Soviet Republics. Central and European countries have found their way to prosperity. ...


I just want to note you some "stages of prosperity". On example of Poland.

Josef Stiglitz , main economist of WORLD BANK wrote
http://www.dcz.gov.ua/control/ru/publish/article/main?art_id=30109519&cat_id=10452390



The level of unemployment in Poland exceeded all economic and publicly permissible standards, which act in the civilized countries. The official level of unemployment at the end of 2003 exceeded 19%. It was 2,5 times higher than average index in the countries THE EUROPEAN UNION. The level of teenage unemployment exceeded 40%, prolonged unemployment - 9% (in THE EUROPEAN UNION - 1,9%, in THE USA - 0,7%). The concealed unemployment, especially in the village, envelopped 0,8-1,0 mln. people. However, Polish problems are not contained by the high level of unemployment. At the end of 2003 the number of persons of working age (man of -18-64 years, woman - 18-59) composed 24 mln., and the number of workers - only 12,6 million. This means that of 24 mln. people of the working age of 11,4 mln. they were professional passive, and if we still consider the inoperative students, it is possible to speak about 10 mln. professionally passive persons. In 1990 - 2004 a quantity of those occupied in the national economy was reduced almost on 5 millions. In the corresponding period the number of persons of working age grew by 2,3 millions. These processes lead to such level of the professional passiveness of society, which was not encountered in other countries.

...Summary scarcity in the foreign economic revolutions in 1992-2003 composed $143,9 billion. The external debt of Poland (state and quotient) reached at the end of 2003. $105,8 billion. and it increased since the beginning of the market transformation to $78 billion, mainly as a result of the scarcity in the external revolutions. Only 45% of scarcity (approximately $65 billion.) it was "compensated" due to the direct foreign investments. From Poland it was "sucked out" capital for the sum approximately $80 of billion

another information



...After Poland ceased to be socialist, the West, in contrast to Russia it copied in 1992 50% of the external indebtedness of Poland (on the political motives). As a result the external debt of Poland was reduced from 30 to 15 billion dollars. From Poland they wanted to make an example for Russia, Ukraine and Belorussia.
Alas, an example proved to be clearly unsuccessful...
In the years of liberal reforms the external debt of Poland increased SEVEN and it leaves today more than 100 billion dollars...


Many prominent Polish economists warned that strategy of reforms, based on the implementation of recommendations OF THE IMF (INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND), leads to "Latin american" of the country, sliding down to the periphery of the world economy, the sharp growth of social disproportions. Import grew since 1990 5 (it covers third of domestic consumption), and export - only 2 times. If is earlier trade, in essence "shuttle", with the eastern neighbors it gave 5--7 billion dollars for the partial compensation for the scarcity of trade with the West, then Polish authorities, being guided by rusofobiyey as the state policy, send to the displacement of connections with the east. In 4 years the number of unemployed grew by million, the profitability of enterprises approached zero. At the same time the West took under the control more than 70 percent of Polish bank capital...

...Poland survives the crisis of confidence to the authority. They consider according to the interrogations of public opinion, 82 percent of Poles that the fate of simple people does not interest politicians, 80 - that the policy they worry about its own interests, and not about the good of state, 76 percent - that the policy are dishonest and the like.

So gentlemens, you can see the situation of "complete prosperity" in Poland.

Why does mister Lancer not hurry returned from Australia to homeland ? :-)))))

P.S. Next time I can talk to you about the "political independence" of Poland today

Lancer44
08-01-2006, 06:46 PM
So gentlemens, you can see the situation of "complete prosperity" in Poland.

Why does mister Lancer not hurry returned from Australia to homeland ? :-)))))



Mister Lancers chosen place is Australia because of weather here.
I hate cold.

Lancer44

Chevan
08-02-2006, 01:33 AM
Mister Lancers chosen place is Australia because of weather here.
I hate cold.

Lancer44

OK, my joke :-)
Lancer, If Poland for you is too cold, as you can consider yourself as the Pole?

Jasa
08-02-2006, 08:04 AM
I recognize here IRONMAN's style.
Correction: Victor Malarek, who is of Ukrainian descent, has been a journalist for more than thirty years and currently works as a reporter for CTV Television in Canada.

They are women and girls, some as young as 12, from all over the Eastern bloc, where sinister networks of organized crime have become entrenched in the aftermath of the collapse of Communist regimes. In Israel, they're called Natashas, whether they're actually from Russia, Bosnia, the Czech Republic, or Ukraine, no matter what their real names may be.

Ukraine's view in the early stages of the trafficking problem in the post-Soviet era was largely that the problem was not its responsibility. The women were, after all, living abroad. Although Ukraine has adopted anti-trafficking legislation, the law has yielded few arrests and even fewer penalties for those convicted. Ukrainian NGO La Strada had complained that the punishments meted out for those convicted were regarded as little more than slaps on the wrist. To be fair, most of the new (13-year-old post-Soviet) governments are faced with nearly insurmountable economic, social and health problems, such as the HIV/AIDS crisis, and trafficking may not be at the top of their list of matters to address (although this is no excuse for tolerating abusive behavior). To be honest, the attitudes in these countries are more often than not that the women would not be found in the slavery-like conditions if they had not "asked for it."

Mr. Malarek has given the rights for translation and publication in Ukraine in order to make the book available for free in that country. He hopes that his book will act as a wake up call to the plight of the trafficked and abused victims, and to the pervasive hypocrisy surrounding the feeble attempts to address their needs.

Mate, Poland is in the European Union. Romania will join European Union on 1st of January 2007. Mainly this is a problem of Russia (see "do you want a Russian bride? call ..."). Ukraine and all former Soviet Republics. Central and European countries have found their way to prosperity. On the other hand in whole Central and Eastern Europe you'll never find so many billionaries like in Russia...

I suspect that you agree 100% with Vladimir Jirinovski, isn't it?


First of all I KNOW Viktor Malarek is not Romanian- It's pretty obvious by the name. What I was pointing out is how he writes extensively on the conditions faced by Romanian trafficked women who are often acquired much more violently than those in Russia or Ukraine which are usually tricked and kidnapped outside of the country.

You actually believe that the EU is going to bring you prosperity? It doesn't bring prosperity. Western Europe BENEFITS from a poor Eastern Europe; I see it here in Czech Republic. The idea that Brussels gives a DAMN about the plight of Eastern European women is just hilarious given their history of evasion on this issue. Countries like Germany and Netherlands use the moral coward's tactic of saying that they don't care about trafficked women since the crimes occured outside of their respective countries.

Jasa
08-02-2006, 08:06 AM
I'm just trying to say that Lenin, Stalin and their friend are the worst what could ever happend to Russia. But apparently you see it in a different way. Ok, it's your choice.

If the "worst" thing is doubling the life expectancy, industrializing the country to the point of being a world superpower, and bringing literacy, healthcare, and education to a country that was the most backward of Europe prior- I'd hate to see what the "best thing" is!




Come on! Why do you always avoid answer when you are asked a difficult question???

How did I do that?

Kovalski
08-02-2006, 08:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kovalski

"I'm just trying to say that Lenin, Stalin and their friend are the worst what could ever happend to Russia. But apparently you see it in a different way. Ok, it's your choice."

If the "worst" thing is doubling the life expectancy, industrializing the country to the point of being a world superpower, and bringing literacy, healthcare, and education to a country that was the most backward of Europe prior- I'd hate to see what the "best thing" is!

But have ever thought that "doubling the life expectancy, industrializing the country to the point of being a world superpower, and bringing literacy, healthcare, and education to a country that was the most backward of Europe" could happen without all the genocide and tragedies that took place?

We had same discussion in Poland. Some people were proud of 50 years of communism because the Reds brought electricity, education, heavy industry etc. But was was the price? Tens of thounsands slaughtered like animals, much more sentenced for prison, terror, etc. After decades it turned out that the heavy industry is causing terrible pollution and is technologically underdeveloped, education means almost nothing and doesn't ensure you a good job...
And what is worse, that feeling that you are a prisoner in your own homeland.
All good this that happen, could happen WITHOUT a single communist.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kovalski
Come on! Why do you always avoid answer when you are asked a difficult question???

How did I do that?


I asked a question regarding to cult of Stalin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kovalski
"What positive influence it had on morality and culture of russian society?"

And your answer was:



Right, because Eastern European society is FAR more moral now right? If I am not mistaken didn't the Pope have to VISIT Poland in the mid-nineties to remind them that CATHOLICS AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE HAVING SO MANY ABORTIONS? So much for that freedom of religion.


Were is the logical connection between the question and answer?

Jasa
08-02-2006, 09:06 AM
But have ever thought that "doubling the life expectancy, industrializing the country to the point of being a world superpower, and bringing literacy, healthcare, and education to a country that was the most backward of Europe" could happen without all the genocide and tragedies that took place?

A. Why would it happen? The Tsarist state was on the verge of collapse, Russia could very well have become a colony like China because of its weakness.

B. There is no proof of "genocide".

C. The idea that such a revolution would take place peacefully or that it wouldn't lead to massive struggle is simply looney.




We had same discussion in Poland. Some people were proud of 50 years of communism because the Reds brought electricity, education, heavy industry etc. But was was the price? Tens of thounsands slaughtered like animals, much more sentenced for prison, terror, etc

Still far less than those killed by the Nazis, and less than the amount who left Poland in the dust to become cab drivers in the West.



After decades it turned out that the heavy industry is causing terrible pollution and is technologically underdeveloped, education means almost nothing and doesn't ensure you a good job...

And capitalism is going to fix that?



And what is worse, that feeling that you are a prisoner in your own homeland.
All good this that happen, could happen WITHOUT a single communist.

Seems like a lot of people feel Poland is some kind of prison now- and they have been escaping ever since.




I asked a question regarding to cult of Stalin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kovalski
"What positive influence it had on morality and culture of russian society?"

The "cult of Stalin" is mostly Khruschev's invention so the question is faulty.

To be honest, I LIKE the new direction Poland is moving in with regards to securing its culture against the decadence of Western capitalism. However, Poland will not be able to withstand it very long. Capitalism will ensure that the wealthy in Poland will inevitably betray the cultural beliefs of the Polish majority in favor of more profit. Degeneracy is profitable, cultural values and discipline is not. Ergo under capitalism this is the inevitable course.

Dani
08-02-2006, 09:32 AM
What I was pointing out is how he writes extensively on the conditions faced by Romanian trafficked women who are often acquired much more violently than those in Russia or Ukraine which are usually tricked and kidnapped outside of the country.
You are misinformed. Read the book.


You actually believe that the EU is going to bring you prosperity? It doesn't bring prosperity.
Of course mate! Nobody gives you prosperity. Romanians have understood that and they work hard to achieve it.


Western Europe BENEFITS from a poor Eastern Europe; I see it here in Czech Republic.
I really don’t know what you wanted to see in Czech Republic. I don’t know the situation of Poland or other Central/East European countries. For Romania both parties gained and gains.
European, American, Japanese investors came in Romania and bought or set up factories or other investments (Renault, Bell Helicopters, Continental, Michelin, Alcatel, Microsoft, YKK, etc etc). The unemployment rate is 5.5%. There are also hundreds of thousands of Romanians working legally in Spain and Italy in qualified jobs.
Moreover, this year, in a clothing factory, the owner brought from China 120 Chinese women to work in his factory in Romania. Why? Because are much much cheaper as working force as Romanians.

As for retail:


30/01/2006 - Carrefour has revealed it’s Romanian sales shot up by 64 per cent last year following a consumer lending boom and extra income created through the new flat tax system.

According to reports in the Romanian press the massive increase in sales makes Carrefour Romania's second largest retailer, second to market leader German Metro Group.
The performance meant that Carrefour's Hyparlo hypermarkets achieved a total sales figure of €435million and took Metro's sales past the €1billion mark. Officials claim the growth will be maintained over the next few years.
Source: http://www.foodanddrinkeurope.com/news/ng.asp?n=65457-carrefour-romania-hypermarkets (http://www.foodanddrinkeurope.com/news/ng.asp?n=65457-carrefour-romania-hypermarkets)
So really there is no need for Romanian women to search their prosperity abroad and to end trafficked.
End of story!

Now back on topic, I only hope that Russia, Ukraine and Belarus will find their ways to prosperity.

Dani
08-02-2006, 09:34 AM
The "cult of Stalin" is mostly Khruschev's invention so the question is faulty.

Nonsense my friend. This proves that you either don't have a clue about history as it was or you don't want to learn about.

Jasa
08-02-2006, 09:40 AM
You are misinformed. Read the book.

I have the book. I wouldn't have mentioned it if I hadn't.




Of course mate! Nobody gives you prosperity. Romanians have understood that and they work hard to achieve it.

What they don't understand is the massive advantages that the EU gets from being able to exploit a poor Eastern Europe. For example; prosperity has arrived in the Czech Republic because of foreign investments. Yet as is expected by everyone here- once CR gets on the Euro, those factories will pack up and go to Asia.




I really don’t know what you wanted to see in Czech Republic. I don’t know the situation of Poland or other Central/East European countries. For Romania both parties gained and gains.
European, American, Japanese investors came in Romania and bought or set up factories or other investments (Renault, Bell Helicopters, Continental, Michelin, Alcatel, Microsoft, YKK, etc etc). The unemployment rate is 5.5%. There are also hundreds of thousands of Romanians working legally in Spain and Italy in qualified jobs.

Again, guess what happens when, and if, Romania gets on the Euro. GOODBYE MANUFACTURING JOBS!!



Moreover, this year, in a clothing factory, the owner brought from China 120 Chinese women to work in his factory in Romania. Why? Because are much much cheaper as working force as Romanians.

Thanks for proving my point about capitalism messing up cultural and ethnic make-up.



As for retail:

Source: http://www.foodanddrinkeurope.com/news/ng.asp?n=65457-carrefour-romania-hypermarkets (http://www.foodanddrinkeurope.com/news/ng.asp?n=65457-carrefour-romania-hypermarkets)
So really there is no need for Romanian women to search their prosperity abroad and to end trafficked.
End of story!

Then what are all those trafficked Romanian women doing here in Western Europe?



Now back on topic, I only hope that Russia, Ukraine and Belarus will find their ways to prosperity.[/QUOTE]

We will find it the same way we did in 1917, only this time doing things the right way instead of Khruschev's way.

Jasa
08-02-2006, 09:40 AM
Nonsense my friend. This proves that you either don't have a clue about history as it was or you don't want to learn about.


No, I just know the difference between verifiable history and the rantings of people like Trotsky or Khruschev.

Dani
08-02-2006, 09:57 AM
Then what are all those trafficked Romanian women doing here in Western Europe?

Where "here" in the Western Europe did you see trafficked Romanian women?


Again, guess what happens when, and if, Romania gets on the Euro. GOODBYE MANUFACTURING JOBS!!
Dreams mate. Says who? You? Why don't you write some books in order to fulfill the Nobel Prize for economy requirements?;)

Edited: By the way, I forgot to tell you that in Romania the education is free.

Dani
08-02-2006, 10:02 AM
No, I just know the difference between verifiable history and the rantings of people like Trotsky or Khruschev.

So, maybe you didn't understand what is about. Then how you'll describe a cult of personality? No names so far.

I only assumed that you read Karl Marx and you'll be able to define the term.

Edited: It's so funny that our Russian friends suddenly decided to appointed you as their speaker.
In a way your theoretical answers are irrelevant as far as you didn't live in a Communist regime.

Lancer44
08-02-2006, 07:11 PM
Reading some posts in this debate I have a feeling that I'm in a lunatic asylum.
In my opinion this thread may be detrimental to the reputation of this forum.
Every dispute must have some boundaries.

Say, astronomers have many conflicting points and they discuss things fiercely. But please imagine what they would say if one of them suddenly put up theory that "earth is flat like a pizza and sits on the backs of four elephants".
Theories of one participant of this discussion are just equally childish.

Lancer44

Panzerknacker
08-02-2006, 10:55 PM
1. There is no evidence that Stalin "killed millions of people".

I think that this kind of revisionism is in line with the holocaust deniers.

Honestly it did not surprize me, I recently heard that Che Guevara was an "humanist" ....ha,ha.

Jasa
08-03-2006, 07:56 AM
Where "here" in the Western Europe did you see trafficked Romanian women?

Prague, and outside of Prague. Viktor Malarek documented this extensively.



Dreams mate. Says who? You? Why don't you write some books in order to fulfill the Nobel Prize for economy requirements?;)

Says history and many of the factory workers here, who are my students.



Edited: By the way, I forgot to tell you that in Romania the education is free.

Was it free before socialism? And to what level?

Jasa
08-03-2006, 07:56 AM
Reading some posts in this debate I have a feeling that I'm in a lunatic asylum.
In my opinion this thread may be detrimental to the reputation of this forum.
Every dispute must have some boundaries.

Say, astronomers have many conflicting points and they discuss things fiercely. But please imagine what they would say if one of them suddenly put up theory that "earth is flat like a pizza and sits on the backs of four elephants".
Theories of one participant of this discussion are just equally childish.

Lancer44

False analogy.

Jasa
08-03-2006, 07:58 AM
I think that this kind of revisionism is in line with the holocaust deniers.

Honestly it did not surprize me, I recently heard that Che Guevara was an "humanist" ....ha,ha.

The difference is that Holocaust revisionism is OPPOSED by demographics, documentary evidence, and eyewitness accounts.

The reality of the Stalinist era is confirmed by documentary and demographic evidence.

Lancer44
08-03-2006, 09:22 AM
The difference is that Holocaust revisionism is OPPOSED by demographics, documentary evidence, and eyewitness accounts.

The reality of the Stalinist era is confirmed by documentary and demographic evidence.

Jasa,
I am 49. My father was in the polish army in 1939. (Born 1921) He was caught by NKVD when tried to get over San river which, (now nearly in the middle of Poland), was then "friendship border" between nazi Germany and soviet Russia.
He get 10 years of hard labor just for the simple fact that he wanted to go back home. He spent the rest of 1939 and 6 month of 1940 in jails - Przemysl, Lvov, Odessa. From July 1940 in various Gulag camps in Usa and Ussusa area. (don't know right spelling). He told me that in winter from 1940 to 1941 he saw:
1. Camp which froze alltogether - 1500 prisoners, guards, dogs, everything.
2. From his transport, (to this frozen camp), of 1400 prisoners of various nationalities, including Russians, 360 survived and seen spring of 1941.

This is just one witness account which I can believe blindly - he was my father.
I heard perhaps two hundred "confessions" which were the same or much worse.
(The fate of civilians, Russian kids, ("biezprizornyye"), was often worse.
Out of those two hundred nights which I spent talking to people which survived Stalin's Russia, was perhaps 25% which said they get out in 1955 -56.

So do not try to push your fairy tales on this Forum.
Here, as you perhaps noticed, are people from many other countries. They heard stories, read stories, they lived through later parts of communism regime and they are vaccinated forever for this kind of bull...t.

What you said about evidence indicates that you are reading stalinist era Census Books...
Are you... ehm... not certified?


Lancer44

Man of Stoat
08-03-2006, 10:03 AM
Why are the communist Nonces who appear on here from time to time not dealt with in exactly the same way as the Nazi Nonces?

Every word that Jasa has written has sickened me.

As for the "economic miracle", you may wish to know that under mechanised collective farms in 1953, less grain was produced than on peasant small holdings in 1913. Surprised? So was Kruschev.

And as for the millions of murders, deaths in camp, disappearances etc, it's all perfectly well documented in the now open archives.

Denying this is to say that black is white.

Dani
08-03-2006, 01:23 PM
Where "here" in the Western Europe did you see trafficked Romanian women?

Prague, and outside of Prague. Viktor Malarek documented this extensively.
My bold.:D

I'll reply to this off-topic post not to comment your false information but to comment your logic.
a)Since when Prague is in Western Europe?;)
b)You just told us that the former Central and East European countries (including Czech Republic and Romania) were poor...
Suddenly you "discovered" that trafficked Romanian women have been seen in Prague and outside of Prague (the capital of the Czech Republic). Mate, don't mess with your arguments! Decide: were and is Czech Republic poor? If yes, what the heck are you talking about?:D :D

This is my last off-topic here. I will ask you to follow the topic.

Dani
08-03-2006, 01:51 PM
Why are the communist Nonces who appear on here from time to time not dealt with in exactly the same way as the Nazi Nonces?

That's a point! I think we should reconsider the rules of this forum.

Dani
08-03-2006, 02:16 PM
It's so funny that our Russian friends suddenly decided to appointed you as their speaker.

Chevan, Sneaksie, do you want to add anything?

Sneaksie
08-03-2006, 05:10 PM
Chevan, Sneaksie, do you want to add anything?
What do you mean by 'appointed as speaker'? Jasa has his own opinion, i assure you. I several times wrote about my opinion about Stalin and i don't see a reason to repeat.

To summarize, 'anticommunists' here just keep telling about killing millions of people and so on. It would make no difference what me or anyone would post about industrialization, development of USSR, defeat of fascism, science and industrial boom which eventually led to first man in space, difference between being backward country in early 1900s and one of two world superpowers, anything - you would just keep talking about purges and such. So what's the point? How can i tell you about gradations of grey if everything in your imagination is 100% white or 100% black?


That's a point! I think we should reconsider the rules of this forum.
Then just change the first rule to 'USSR is guilty in everything' and everybody would understand what to expect here.

Man of Stoat
08-04-2006, 02:45 AM
It was such an industrial wonder that there were shortages of basic consumer goods (food, soap, etc) right up until the end.

It was great at producing large quantities of badly made weapons, but you can't eat an AK-47 or wash yourself with a T72.

And don't get me started on internal passports, registering with the police when you visit someone in another town for more than three days, the guard towers on the borders facing inwards, no freedom to leave, etc etc etc

Firefly
08-04-2006, 03:32 AM
USSR and the Communist Ideology.

Guys, thats the topic here. I have just read back through every posts here after reading Man of Stoats post.

I am impartial on this one, however there are a few groundrules you must all respect here before continuing your debate.

1. Please do not insult your fellow debaters here. Some of you are coming close to losing control.

2. Please stick to the topic, I know sometimes you can stray from it but if you want to discuss the traffiking of women etc, open another topic. I fail to see what this has to do with the USSR or communism except in the aftermath.

I also think that a lot of the posters here should remember that most countries in the EU are socialist in outlook and practices, have a bit from both systems and are not just voracious capatalists.

So to kick-start the debate again, can someone tell me what was the ideolagy of the communists in 1917 and were the great plans for communism realised or were the Tsars simply replaced by another social elite, the members of the Communist Party?

Jasa
08-04-2006, 05:26 AM
Why are the communist Nonces who appear on here from time to time not dealt with in exactly the same way as the Nazi Nonces?

Every word that Jasa has written has sickened me.

As for the "economic miracle", you may wish to know that under mechanised collective farms in 1953, less grain was produced than on peasant small holdings in 1913. Surprised? So was Kruschev.


Get ready, here comes that inconvenient part where I ask your for PROOF of that assertion!



And as for the millions of murders, deaths in camp, disappearances etc, it's all perfectly well documented in the now open archives.

.

Nope, the archival evidence actually refutes those claims. See for yourself.

Jasa
08-04-2006, 05:30 AM
My bold.:D

I'll reply to this off-topic post not to comment your false information but to comment your logic.
a)Since when Prague is in Western Europe?;)

Prague is considered Central Europe. However women are trafficked into Western Europe as far as England.



b)You just told us that the former Central and East European countries (including Czech Republic and Romania) were poor...

No, the Czech Republic has currently gained massive foreign investment and tourist dollars; but this is only temporary.



Suddenly you "discovered" that trafficked Romanian women have been seen in Prague and outside of Prague (the capital of the Czech Republic). Mate, don't mess with your arguments! Decide: were and is Czech Republic poor? If yes, what the heck are you talking about?:D :D

No I didn't "suddenly" discover this, I have known about it for years. I pointed out Romanians because it pertains to one of my opponents. But perhaps the suffering of his own women isn't all that important.



This is my last off-topic here. I will ask you to follow the topic.

This is a direct result of the deliberate destruction of socialism. There are people here who believe that the destruction of socialism has improved life in Eastern Europe. They are wrong, period.

Dani
08-04-2006, 05:43 AM
They are wrong, period.

a) It's only your opinion, period.
b) Please do yourself a favor and edit your last post! Quote me and not MoS ;)



Originally Posted by Man of Stoat
b)You just told us that the former Central and East European countries (including Czech Republic and Romania) were poor...

Dani
08-04-2006, 05:49 AM
Then just change the first rule to 'USSR is guilty in everything' and everybody would understand what to expect here.

Don't be upset Sneaksie! Nazi and Communism were the worst ideologies of the last century. The difference between them consists in their endings.

Jasa
08-04-2006, 05:52 AM
a) It's only your opinion, period.
b) Please do yourself a favor and edit your last post! Quote me and not MoS ;)

[/I]


No, it is a statement of fact backed by documentary evidence.

I will edit the last post.

Kovalski
08-04-2006, 05:55 AM
Which planet did you come from Jasa?

Denying a fact that life standard increased thanks to destruction of socialism in Eastern Europe in a mumble of a madman.
Where were you before 1989???
I suspect that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Don't even try to compare the level of poverty - now and before 1989.
It is much, much better than 16 years ago.
The problem of poverty, unemployment etc. still exists, but in every economical and political system you have to face such problems.
Even in your beloved communism.

Dani
08-04-2006, 06:00 AM
Where were you before 1989???


Based on what Jasa said in other thread that he have been in US Army, definitely he lived in USA prior to 1989.

Isn't it Jasa?

Edited: Jasa, I don't want to bother you but I have a personal question. You told that you lived in the US and you are of Ukrainian descendent. May I ask you what was the reason on which your anscestors leave Ukraine for US? And when?
I insisted to ask you because if your ancestors leave after 1917 it seems that you are the black sheep of your family. If they leave prior to 1917 means that you don't have any clue on what meant communism.
Apologies for any inconvenience caused.

Jasa
08-04-2006, 06:20 AM
Based on what Jasa said in other thread that he have been in US Army, definitely he lived in USA prior to 1989.

Isn't it Jasa?

Edited: Jasa, I don't want to bother you but I have a personal question. You told that you lived in the US and you are of Ukrainian descendent. May I ask you what was the reason on which your anscestors leave Ukraine for US? And when?
I insisted to ask you because if your ancestors leave after 1917 it seems that you are the black sheep of your family. If they leave prior to 1917 means that you don't have any clue on what meant communism.
Apologies for any inconvenience caused.

Actually my family came over from Western Ukraine, Galicia, which would not be part of the Soviet Union until 1939. There was a lot of tension in the region because of the struggle between the UPA and Polish authorities.

Kovalski
08-04-2006, 06:22 AM
So Jasa, have you spent a single minute in any of the Eastern Block countries between 1917-1991?

Jasa
08-04-2006, 06:25 AM
Which planet did you come from Jasa?

Denying a fact that life standard increased thanks to destruction of socialism in Eastern Europe in a mumble of a madman.
Where were you before 1989???
I suspect that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Don't even try to compare the level of poverty - now and before 1989.
It is much, much better than 16 years ago.
The problem of poverty, unemployment etc. still exists, but in every economical and political system you have to face such problems.
Even in your beloved communism.


I hardly see how an abundance of overpriced consumer goods truly constitutes a higher standard of living, particularly when one looks at what capitalist society has done to Western nations- turned them into degenerate states.

The sad part is that fate set Marxism and those who were concerned about their national culture against each other- when now we have to agree that the greatest destroyer of these things was and currently is- capitalism.

Someone earlier made a reference(though not using the correct term) to the European welfare state. Well we all know what is happening to these states now. Capitalism has created higher demand for cheap-labor, fueling third-world immigration and straining the abilities of that welfare state to the breaking point. At the same time, millions of these immigrants are judged "incompatible" with the "Western culture" that liberals promote. Once the welfare state collapses, they'll be left with a lot of poor, pissed-off immigrants whose only redeeming quality is that they reject liberal cultural degeneracy.

The riots that occured in France last year are merely the tip of the ice-berg.

Socialism had to be torn down by traitors and trillions of dollars spent on war(not even including the Nazis here).

Capitalism creates its own demise.

Jasa
08-04-2006, 06:28 AM
So Jasa, have you spent a single minute in any of the Eastern Block countries between 1917-1991?


Individual anecdotal evidence is not scientific and is irrelevent. For example; I spent my entire time in the army in a boring, very cold place. I could recount stories for hours- however this is not representative of life in the army and by no means suggests that a majority of people in the army will be bored and freezing in Kansas.

Dani
08-04-2006, 06:29 AM
The riots that occured in France last year are merely the tip of the ice-berg.
It's not a good example. France is well known for "riots" and "revolutions" - see what happened in France in 1968.

Jasa
08-04-2006, 06:32 AM
It's not a good example. France is well known for "riots" and "revolutions" - see what happened in France in 1968.

But the nature of that riot was different, and furthermore look at the riots that happened after the little cartoon incident. The media attributed the French riots to the problem of massive unemployment and discontent, which is why they were so extensive. The Welfare state, as some kind of compromise between socialism and capitalism, cannot survive. Capitalism will overtake it(it already is), and then the real sparks will fly.

Dani
08-04-2006, 06:34 AM
The Welfare state, as some kind of compromise between socialism and capitalism, cannot survive. Capitalism will overtake it(it already is), and then the real sparks will fly.

What's your opinion about glasnosti and perestroika?

Jasa
08-04-2006, 06:42 AM
What's your opinion about glasnosti and perestroika?


Finishing touches in the destruction of socialism that began with Khruschev. Some have commented that perestroika contained what could have been workable reforms- but the elements that protected socialism were deliberately not implemented while those that benefitted new capitalists were passed. Basically these reforms were passed without the checks and balances.

Kovalski
08-04-2006, 06:43 AM
But in fact Jasa, you are trying to discuss with people which were eyewitnesses, and which already felt the effects of communism or socialism, whater you like to call it (the real effects, not these described in nice red books).
And you are trying to prove that it wasn't that bad at all.
As I said before, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Jasa
08-04-2006, 06:45 AM
But in fact Jasa, you are trying to discuss with people which were eyewitnesses, and which already felt the effects of communism or socialism, whater you like to call it (the real effects, not these described in nice red books).
And you are trying to prove that it wasn't that bad at all.
As I said before, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Except that there are plenty of eyewitnesses out there who disagree- but these have always been rejected as "brain-washed".

Dani
08-04-2006, 06:53 AM
Except that there are plenty of eyewitnesses out there who disagree- but these have always been rejected as "brain-washed".


Bucharest, Feb 14 /Rompres/ - The Institute for the Investigation of the Crimes of Communism held a first meeting on Tuesday, in the presence of Romanian Prime Minister Calin Popescu-Tariceanu.

[...]
According to the premier, the Institute's investigations related to the crimes and abuse of the communist rule will give an answer also to the problem of the disappearance of the Romanian elites.
"I keep thinking of the elites who have been methodically eliminated from the life of the Romanian society, which has an extremely negative impact even today, as the re-creation of the intellectual, political and cultural elites is a very difficult process and some of the problems the Romanian society is facing today are linked to this difficulty," said the prime minister.
According to Tariceanu, the Institute will have a difficult mission, as it will have to "bring to light" the abuse, crimes, shortages in the communist era and the Government "has the moral duty to support this move."

Source: http://ue.mae.ro/index.php?lang=en&id=31&s=5903&arhiva=true

Jasa, continuing to post affirmations without any evidence are transforming you in a troll.

Edited: I'll ask the mods (since I can't mod here being involved) to move this thread in "General discussion" section.

Lancer44
08-04-2006, 07:02 AM
Dear Comrads,

I think that I know how to understand our comrads bolsheviks...
They probably don't know how to understand themselves, but I see a point in their blubber!
Their sentimental cry after "the best political system" is because after communism collapsed, (or dismantled itself), many people lost a little everyday joys.
Let's start with the most basic thing - toilet paper. Today anyone can buy toilet paper of all colours, thicknesses, texture, perfumed, not perfumed, bleached, unbleached, in blue flowers, pink ones, yellow ones etc etc.

In not so distant times, only 17-18 yers ago, in one of the biggest cities in the world - Moscow, purchase of a few rolls of toilet paper was bordering with total impossibility! Only special connections and access to Bieriozka stores or KGB or party shops ensured steady supply of the most basic commodity.
Most of the people were sitting on their toilet seats softenind Pravda paper cut in handy sheets.
Do you know how to do it?
It's simple. Crumble piece of paper into ball, straighten it up and repeat the process several times to achieve softness and conformity.
It's that simple?

Not realy. Ruling communist party could not be blamed for lack of toilet paper! Toilet paper was indeed produced and some quantities reached some shops. No one know but, which shops and when...
So imagine your satisfaction if walking on the street, you suddenly see queing people... You quickly run, stand at the end of 600 metres long queue and after only 3 hours queing, you become a happy owner of the 6 rolls of the worst toilet paper in the world. In reality... not much softer than sandpaper.
Some people called it - Stalin's revenge...

BUT CAN YOU IMAGINE YOUR JOY AND SATISFACTION???

And the same story can be repeated with anything else - torch batteries, bags for vaccuum cleaners, shoelaces, soap, womens hygenics, shaving cream, razor blades, car batteries, tyres, condoms, shampoo, underpants, socks. You name it, you needed it - it was in short supply.
I don't even want to mention food...

BUT CAN YOU IMAGINE SATISFACTION AND JOY AFTER BUYING ONE OF MENTIONED GOODS OR A KILO OF SAUSAGES???
Or anything which was to buy - like alarm o'clock. You have two. You don't need another alarm o'clock. But someone may need and exchange it for 3 pairs of socks. What a joy it will be...

Ruling Party of the Workers Paradise - the only properly ruled country in the world - was not satisfied with the best system being confined to their own country. They also imposed similar system in other countries like Czechoslovakia, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, occupied Germany called DDR and Hungary.
In all above mentioned countries situation was exactly similar. If someone would like to describe this situation in 3 words he could say:
- NO TOILET PAPER...

But in all these countries there was abundant supply of locomotives, railway sleepers, ball bearings, diesel engines and other similar very needed in each household goods.

So, you with me now? What the pleasure to go to the supermarket and buy.
No pleasure at all. Many of us don't like groceries shopping and treat it as a chore.
But our comrades want to make our life more joyfull, more fulfilling, more satisfying!
Imagine your joy when you will be able to buy a bottle of shampoo... after queing for 2 hours... What a sheer joy filling bath tub with water, (if there is water because it can be switched off, and if there is electricity to make this water warm), and spreading shampoo on your hair...Real shampoo not gray smelly soap...

I go now to have a bath...

I just tell you an old Polish joke:

In the busy workshop, young worker is storming into the supervisor's office and yelling:
- I heard on the radio that Russians are in space!!!
- All of them? - Astonished manager looked at him in desbelief
- No, only one.
- So, go back to work!!! And don't waste my time with such stupid, irrelevant news!

Cheers,

Lancer44

Edited once to change capital letter.

Dani
08-04-2006, 07:18 AM
What Lancer told was true 100%. We know because we lived what Lancer described.

This is what missed you Jasa. The experience of living in communism.

And I don't want to say anything about the terror of secret Police, the TV "program", the forced labour, the 6 days working week, the persecution of the churches, etc etc

Lancer44
08-04-2006, 07:35 AM
And I don't want to say anything about the terror of secret Police, the TV "program", the forced labour, the 6 days working week, the persecution of the churches, etc etc

Perfectly true Dani!
But:
1. Not everyone was subjected to terror of Securitate or SB. Let's be objective.
2. Some dumb idiots liked this TV program... and to be honest, I don't watch now much television because it is totally stupid.
3. Unemployed may like the idea of forced labour...
4. In Australia 6 working days is almost a norm for factory workers - 6-th day being paid double as overtime.
5. Most of young people simply abandon traditional beliefs.

But toilet paper... who's not using it???
Please rise your hand!



C

Kovalski
08-04-2006, 07:36 AM
And not a single word about martial law in Poland 1981-1983.
Thanks to commies again...

Lancer44
08-04-2006, 07:45 AM
And not a single word about martial law in Poland 1981-1983.
Thanks to commies again...

Kovalsky, martial law it was our own struggle. Our own choice. Dani is not mentioning their Timisoara either, nor thousands which suffered by Securitate.
I choose simpler explanation - go to the level of simplest man which is not concerned with the past, ideology, history, which just want to live.
Miserable life perhaps... in your and other member of this Forum standard, but ordinary life. Not all people are heroes, not all are even able to think logically. We cannot say that all are stupid because they form part of the society.

But they are all entitled to vote... Don't you think this may be a problem?
Or is a problem already?

Kovalski
08-04-2006, 10:08 AM
Kovalsky, martial law it was our own struggle. Our own choice. Dani is not mentioning their Timisoara either, nor thousands which suffered by Securitate.
I choose simpler explanation - go to the level of simplest man which is not concerned with the past, ideology, history, which just want to live.
Miserable life perhaps... in your and other member of this Forum standard, but ordinary life. Not all people are heroes, not all are even able to think logically. We cannot say that all are stupid because they form part of the society.

But they are all entitled to vote... Don't you think this may be a problem?
Or is a problem already?

Right, it depends on the perspective you choose.
I believe that general political rights are not the problem here. This is fundamental and any attempt to changing it would cause serious implications.
I think that problem is somewhere else, much deeper.
Example - 50% attendance in last elections in Poland.
Half of society doesn't care about who is going to rule for next 4 years.
What should be done?
I'm sure that deprivement of voting rights would only worsen the situation.
We should focus on the reason of apathy and indifference.
How to revive the public spirit and will for active participation in society's life.

Lancer44
08-04-2006, 10:27 AM
Right, it depends on the perspective you choose.
I believe that general political rights are not the problem here. This is fundamental and any attempt to changing it would cause serious implications.
I think that problem is somewhere else, much deeper.
Example - 50% attendance in last elections in Poland.
Half of society doesn't care about who is going to rule for next 4 years.
What should be done?
I'm sure that deprivement of voting rights would only worsen the situation.
We should focus on the reason of apathy and indifference.
How to revive the public spirit and will for active participation in society's life.
Hey, hey, hey....

What we are talking about?????

Let's go back to WWII...

Dani
08-04-2006, 10:28 AM
Edited: I'll ask the mods (since I can't mod here being involved) to move this thread in "General discussion" section.

Lancer, I already asked the mods...

Kovalski
08-04-2006, 02:57 PM
Hey, hey, hey....

What we are talking about?????

Let's go back to WWII...

Oh, it's because you provoked me with that question about voting...
:):):)

Firefly
08-04-2006, 05:12 PM
Guys, I have moved this thread, theres not much ww2 in it as interesting as it has become.

However, I'm still awaiting my answer - What was the communist ideolagy in 1917 and how did it differ in 1989?

Sneaksie
08-04-2006, 05:49 PM
However, I'm still awaiting my answer - What was the communist ideolagy in 1917 and how did it differ in 1989?
In 1917 bolshevik's program focused on building a society ruled by working classes and in their interests. The other communist plans (world revolution, proletary dictate, etc.) were secondary and auxilary to this paramount task.
Stalin shifted focus from worldwide victory of communism to USSR development and defence (and executed die-hard communists like Trotsky which proposed world revolution by any means). Paramount idea stayed the same, but means were changed. After that the official idea was that worldwide revolution is inevitable and USSR must defend achievements of commuism till that, helping communists in entire world and to be an example of country which achieved communism. Official program from these times was to defend the country where working classes prevailed until revolutions in other countries begin and help them.
The result was simple - because no revolutions were seen from 60s or so the idea of worldwide communism faded and only secondary by nature tasks like defending the USSR remained. Problem was that paramount, core idea was slowly lost (because of no revolutions) and thus was lost the very reason of USSR existence. Politics of USSR in 80s, for example, are politics of country which just try to survive in hostile environment.
In 1989 there were no communist ideology to speak of.
Throughout it's history USSR waited like lone paratrooper who must hold the bridge for his comrades by any cost. He defended against enemy as long as he could - but his comrades did not came.

Kovalski
08-04-2006, 06:05 PM
So to kick-start the debate again, can someone tell me what was the ideolagy of the communists in 1917 and were the great plans for communism realised or were the Tsars simply replaced by another social elite, the members of the Communist Party?

Hmm, communism as a ideology was an utopia. It was based on false asumptions that creation of classless society is possible, with common possession of means of production and equal distribution of goods.
Existence of group of people which is in charge was in fact denying the idea. Of course commies had an explenation for that. Theoretically the period after 1917 was simply the transitional phase before the true communism could be implemented, and society needed someone who would lead it to revolution and communism. But as we all know, there were always some diffilucties.
In my opinion communists were simply another social group which wanted to take over the control. Obviously, there were thousands who truly believed that the revolution is about to take place and it is possible to make everybody happy. But from historical point of view it was antoher elite using a totalitarian ideology for its own purposes.
If we follow Max Weber's theory of ideal type, the the purest communism took place in USSR about 1952.
Later, it was nothing more than regular dictatorship which used the ideology.
I wish I had more time to write more.
But I'm going for my mate's wedding tomorrow and I'll be gone for a whole weekend.
Have a nice discussion.:)

Chevan
08-04-2006, 06:17 PM
Regards by all.
I see the atmosphere here is hot.
Our discussion become pure political.

I saw this thread from begin, to me it's very a pity that some members of our forum descend to the personal insults. As absolutely correctly noted Firefly it's necessary to be held some determined of boundaries.
This became obvious when it appeared Jasa. Certainly it has very untypical and interesting persuasions (with which it is possible to argue). But instead of the arguments some our friends on the forum began to give out to the cliches lile "the revisionist" ," madman" or even "bolshevik". ( it's pity Lancer but yourself try to use the bolshevik method against the minority).
Some of you deside that all russians in this thread will compulsorily support persuasions Jasa. I think it's also " soviet habit" to think by stereotypes which some members do.
Meanwhile practically no one of you noted key problem of social equality in the contemporary peace, which affected Jasa.
To me it's very pity that some of our Eastern European participants attempt to present contemporary situation in the countries of East Europe as the "result of the successful election of way to prosperity". I hope all of you understand that policy it is not always honest. Every day I have the capability to read the western press and to watch BBS and CNN.
There they tell about the immense successes of the eastern European countries in "on the way into Europe". They speak about the investments - but not about the being grown external debts.
They speak about the right to work in the countries of the European Union - but they do not speak about infringement of the rights of workers from East Europe in the West.
They never speak that the workers from East Europe -this people of the third-sort in the West.
They never speak about the destroyed east european industry according to the "recommendations OF THE IMF "



I think that problem is somewhere else, much deeper.
Example - 50% attendance in last elections in Poland.
Half of society doesn't care about who is going to rule for next 4 years.
What should be done?
I'm sure that deprivement of voting rights would only worsen the situation.
We should focus on the reason of apathy and indifference.
How to revive the public spirit and will for active participation in society's life.

Yes, Kovalsky it's serious problem.
I think that the reason of "apathy and indifference" becouse people know that on their selection nothing it depends. This is the paradox of "new democracy". This situation to me is familiar according to the personal experience. I never walked to vote up to 2000 . But now situation strongly changed for the better.
unfortunately (since cool war with Jasa) nobody noted my post about modern situation in Poland.
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3714&page=4
This confirms Kovalski in its post.
And pleas ,gentlemens , don't necessary to speak about THE USSR as if you there lived. I can imagine that situation in Poland and Rumania was worst, but does not be worth telling the fairy tales about "genocide of Stalin above the Russian people" about by the "terrible secret of the police in THE USSR". Do not attempt to present life in THE USSR as survival under the conditions of terror and fear. This is nonsense.
Simply people were others. My parents remember Khrushchev, by child I saw Brezhnev.

Cheers.

Chevan
08-04-2006, 06:44 PM
In 1917 bolshevik's program focused on building a society ruled by working classes and in their interests. The other communist plans (world revolution, proletary dictate, etc.) were secondary and auxilary to this paramount task.
Stalin shifted focus from worldwide victory of communism to USSR development and defence (and executed die-hard communists like Trotsky which proposed world revolution by any means). Paramount idea stayed the same, but means were changed. After that the official idea was that worldwide revolution is inevitable and USSR must defend achievements of commuism till that, helping communists in entire world and to be an example of country which achieved communism. Official program from these times was to defend the country where working classes prevailed until revolutions in other countries begin and help them.
The result was simple - because no revolutions were seen from 60s or so the idea of worldwide communism faded and only secondary by nature tasks like defending the USSR remained. Problem was that paramount, core idea was slowly lost (because of no revolutions) and thus was lost the very reason of USSR existence. Politics of USSR in 80s, for example, are politics of country which just try to survive in hostile environment.
In 1989 there were no communist ideology to speak of.
Throughout it's history USSR waited like lone paratrooper who must hold the bridge for his comrades by any cost. He defended against enemy as long as he could - but his comrades did not came.

Hi Sneaksie.
WOW , WOW ... mate.
"In 1989 there were no communist ideology to speak of"
What are you talking about?
You forgot about China.
Communist ideology did not die into 1989, on the contrary it very successfully was transformed in China after taking for the armament market reforms. After 1990 Chinas survives rapid economic growth (in average 11% per year). The Communist Party of China to vose not problem for the enormous foreign investments. Now China became the most important player in Asia.
In contrast to East Europe, which in 1990 was located in the crisis and lost the large part of its industry, China on the contrary completed powerful technological jump. It created the strategic missiles and the space industry. It independently neglected man into space. Ego of reaching they impress.
I even read that the China was real conqueror of the Cold War .
According to the forecasts of the American analysts in 10-15 years China will create the real threat of American hegemony in the world.

Gentlemen, I would not begin at your place "to bury the communism". Is obvious this foolishly. Communism has all chances to successfully survive of all us.

Kovalski
08-05-2006, 01:12 AM
Gentelmen, we need to clear up what are we discussing. The theory of communism and all it's aspect or historical examples.
It's important, because we would mix-up everything and it will be very difficult to countinue the discussion.
What I mean is that the system in China that Chevan is talking about, has almost nothing in common with communism described by Marx and Engles. What is more, there would got mad if they saw what Chinese had done to their ideas.
Nothing left of communist economical theory there.
I suggest to implement some rules for discussion in order to avoid the mess.

Chevan
08-05-2006, 04:00 AM
What I mean is that the system in China that Chevan is talking about, has almost nothing in common with communism described by Marx and Engles. ...
It's not correct comparison.
The China socialism was practicaly copy of soviet socialism (with ouw national troubles like the "cultural revolition"). But basic principles was the same.
After 1989 China was capable transform it's ruling party (Still COMMUNISTS) according "new wings".
Just ideas of Marx were converted but not die.

Chevan
08-05-2006, 06:51 AM
What Lancer told was true 100%. We know because we lived what Lancer described.

This is what missed you Jasa. The experience of living in communism.



Dani and Lancer stop the fancy.
Talk about your states not about USSR.

I lived 13 years in THE USSR but no one as I remember even in the most difficult times (end 1980) it did not stand 3 hours in the turn after the toilet paper or the sausage. My parents told about the difficult times after WW2 but never about the turns after the toilet paper or the products. Certainly long-term turns were (for example to obtaining of free state apartment) but this situation was completely normal .
I looked very long American film "Moscow above Hudson". I remember there it was episode with the turn after the toilet paper length into THE KILOMETER. We for long laughed with the friends.

Present problems arose after 1992 when it began the "shock therapy".
According to the recommendations of criminals from IMF new Russian pro-Western government began to frankly steal the state asset.
This was real tragedy for the country. There was the abundance but no one it could this purchase on the shop windows of stores. Were shut plants in enterprises not there were means to buy industrial production. An increase in the crime began. The Mafia openly appeared.
In 1994 Began The war in Chechnya.
My dad acknowledged to me that the period of middle 1990 was most difficult after 1945.

I simply smile when our Polish friends they attempt to describe to me about the "heavy half-starving life in THE USSR".
I understand on whom you try.
This not has relation to the reality.

Lancer44
08-05-2006, 11:19 AM
Gentelmen, we need to clear up what are we discussing. The theory of communism and all it's aspect or historical examples.
It's important, because we would mix-up everything and it will be very difficult to countinue the discussion.
What I mean is that the system in China that Chevan is talking about, has almost nothing in common with communism described by Marx and Engles. What is more, there would got mad if they saw what Chinese had done to their ideas.
Nothing left of communist economical theory there.
I suggest to implement some rules for discussion in order to avoid the mess.

It is very simple. In all aspects where communist system relaxed or permitted to run something along logical, natural ways, it suddenly was very successful.
1. NEP in soviet Russia - suddenly a lot of food appeared on the market.
2. Individual plots in stalinist Russia. I don't remember exact figures but something like 8% of cultivated land in private hand was supplying 80% of food for entire country.
3. Same in Poland. Most of food - grain, meat and milk come from "obsolete" private farmers. Collective farms were always bankrupt.
4. None of state enterprises could show even paper profit, but small private ones were very successful.

General conclusion - the whole Marx and Engels idea is impossible to implement in any way, in any country, in any time. Period.

The rest was perfectly explained by Kovalski.

Lancer44

Lancer44
08-05-2006, 11:35 AM
Dani and Lancer stop the fancy.
Talk about your states not about USSR.

I lived 13 years in THE USSR but no one as I remember even in the most difficult times (end 1980) it did not stand 3 hours in the turn after the toilet paper or the sausage. My parents told about the difficult times after WW2 but never about the turns after the toilet paper or the products. Certainly long-term turns were (for example to obtaining of free state apartment) but this situation was completely normal .
I looked very long American film "Moscow above Hudson". I remember there it was episode with the turn after the toilet paper length into THE KILOMETER. We for long laughed with the friends.

Present problems arose after 1992 when it began the "shock therapy".
According to the recommendations of criminals from IMF new Russian pro-Western government began to frankly steal the state asset.
This was real tragedy for the country. There was the abundance but no one it could this purchase on the shop windows of stores. Were shut plants in enterprises not there were means to buy industrial production. An increase in the crime began. The Mafia openly appeared.
In 1994 Began The war in Chechnya.
My dad acknowledged to me that the period of middle 1990 was most difficult after 1945.

I simply smile when our Polish friends they attempt to describe to me about the "heavy half-starving life in THE USSR".
I understand on whom you try.
This not has relation to the reality.

Chevan,

Writing my "funny" post I did not exaggerated...
Dani can support me.
It was like that in Poland and - I know, as a matter of fact - even worse in Romania.
In Poland the worst times were after 1980. During 1980-1982 - first strikes than martial law - shops were virtually empty. Tea and vinegar were the only things which you could buy freely.
And regarding food - we had rationing like during WWII. Everyone get his rationing card with his/her pay. Everything you could buy was there.
Kovalsky my correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I remember:

2.5 kg of meat a month
2 kg of sugar
200 grams of chocolate for 1 child a month.
2 bottles of vodka or 2 bottles of wine or 6 bottles of beer a month.

And I can tell you that contrary to todays official history strikes in Poland not started in Gdansk - they started in Lublin after trains with food for USSR were discovered by workers and looted.

Lancer44

Chevan
08-05-2006, 11:56 AM
.
...
General conclusion - the whole Marx and Engels idea is impossible to implement in any way, in any country, in any time. Period.
....

Lancer44
The whole Marx idea was never realised in anywhere, my friend. Marxism is just theory , very progressive for its time (end of 19 centure). Marxism had its last aim to build communism.
There were never communist countries , just socialist - the intermediate level to communism (accordind to marxists theory).
On my mind , socialism in USSR had all chances to successfully transform using market relations like in China.
Saving its own powerfull heavy indastry , USSR could solve all the economic problems.

Chevan
08-05-2006, 01:14 PM
Chevan,

Writing my "funny" post I did not exaggerated...
Dani can support me.
It was like that in Poland and - I know, as a matter of fact - even worse in Romania.
In Poland the worst times were after 1980. During 1980-1982 - first strikes than martial law - shops were virtually empty. Tea and vinegar were the only things which you could buy freely.
And regarding food - we had rationing like during WWII. Everyone get his rationing card with his/her pay. Everything you could buy was there.
Kovalsky my correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I remember:

2.5 kg of meat a month
2 kg of sugar
200 grams of chocolate for 1 child a month.
2 bottles of vodka or 2 bottles of wine or 6 bottles of beer a month.

And I can tell you that contrary to todays official history strikes in Poland not started in Gdansk - they started in Lublin after trains with food for USSR were discovered by workers and looted.

Lancer44
mate, you showed the reason of worsening in the standard of living of people in Poland into 1980-82 - strikes. When the large masses of workers nothing make perhaps this it does not lead to the economic problems.
Of course , as resault - the limited distribution of the products (the rationing system).

Recently I read about Rumania.
In 1980 there was there very heavy situation. Chaushesku without the agreement with THE USSR took many western credits in 1970. In Rumania it was built one of the strong industries in the eastern block. Rumanian goods bought both the eastern neighbors and western Europe.
However, situation sharply was complicated after economic errors in 1980. The West began to require debts back. Chaushesku introduces the "regime of total economy" - the purely Rumanian version of socialism.
This situation was more worst than you described in Poland in 1982.
As a result Rumania completely extinguished the external debts, but they speak that this it cost life for Chaushesku.

I think Dani can talk more interesting and correct information about "Rumanian socialicm" of period latest Chaushesku.

But its absolutly wrong to to speak so about THE USSR.
In the USSR till 1987 Gorbachev's perestroika (but honestly saying also in 1960 after Chrushev's experiments) were not the food problems.
One interest example. In 1986 in my native sity Tichoretsk (Krasnodar area) americans builded the "Combine of the meat canned foods". One of the modern and biggest in south of USSR.
After its starting the the regiments of stores were covered with high-quality and cheap meat products.By natural meat products without genetic additives and steroids.
But after 1995 all natural production went to the export.
Today buying the watery "hen legs of Bush" in which steroids more than of meat, many Russian people with the regret they recall about the life in THE USSR.
I think this is the irony of fate. Or punishment.
people never do not value that they have.

Dani
08-05-2006, 02:11 PM
Recently I read about Rumania.
In 1980 there was there very heavy situation. Chaushesku without the agreement with THE USSR took many western credits in 1970.
Wrong. Romania took credits like any other country. And speaking of "agreement with the USSR" you forgot one thing: Romania was considered the black sheep
of the Communist block. We had diplomatic relations with Federal Republic of Germany and with Israel (despite the Arab-Israelis wars).
We were against Romanian Army participation in August 1968 reppresing of the Prague movement.
We had good relations with USA (a lot of high level visits of Nixon, Ford and Carter and of course Ceausescu in Romania and USA).
We participated in both "boycott" Olympic Games - Moscow 1980 and Los Angeles 1984 (only Cuba participated beside Romania from Communist block).
All these facts pissed off the Mighty Big Brother from East who cut any money, any support, any market for Romania.
Therefore Romania was forced to borrow money on the free market like any other country (including USSR).


However, situation sharply was complicated after economic errors in 1980. The West began to require debts back.
What "economic errors"? Simply Ceausescu decided that Romania need to be a "no debt" country (remember that you said something about external debts...)

Chaushesku introduces the "regime of total economy" - the purely Rumanian version of socialism.
NO to any imports and export everything (even food and MOSTLY to USSR).

This situation was more worst than you described in Poland in 1982.


2.5 kg of meat a month
2 kg of sugar
200 grams of chocolate for 1 child a month.
2 bottles of vodka or 2 bottles of wine or 6 bottles of beer a month.
Lucky you!
Romanian rations (of course with queing):
200g salami person/month;
1 kg meat/family/month (it doesn't matter the size of the family);
10 eggs/family/month;
1.5 liter sunflower oil/family/month;
1 kg sugar/family/month
2 bread/person/day;
etc etc;
The only product available free was Vietnamese shrimps.:D
You will say "Come on! that was Romanian version of socialism". I'll reply that we had reach at this tragic situation due to communism.
Imposed and sustained by the Soviets.

AFAIK are still three communist countries in the world: Cuba, Noth Korea and Vietnam (I'm not so sure about Vietnam anyway).

Dani
08-05-2006, 02:26 PM
As a conclusion, the communism have failed as an ideology and as a way of life in the Central and Eastern Europe. End of story and get back to the topic.

Chevan
08-05-2006, 04:32 PM
As a conclusion, the communism have failed as an ideology and as a way of life in the Central and Eastern Europe. End of story and get back to the topic.
We are alredy in topik :Comunism ideology
I't touch all Esterm european countries , USSR and China.


What "economic errors"? Simply Ceausescu decided that Romania need to be a "no debt" country
Dani , unfortunately not so simple
suorce http://lib.com.ru/History/it_ROUMANIA.htm

...Rumania after the accession to power Ceausescu took course on the purchase of the expensive projects on the building of the giants of the chemical, metallurgical, oil-refining productions, equipment in THE USA, France, Italy and FRG. Rumania began to develop commercial relations more than with 150 countries, and to 1987 it left in the 12th place in the world by the annual volume of trade. In the structure of the Rumanian export, which grew from 1967 through 1987 it is more than 9,6 times, began to predominate articles with the high degree of working (62 % entire export). Ceausescu it judged from many points of view correctly: to export profitably only finished product. "raw" path leads to the steady impoverishment of its own economy and to an increase in the colonial dependence. He wanted to convert Rumania into the certain transportation terminal point between the West and the east, oriented to processing of eastern raw material.
Fateful for Rumania it became 1972, when International Bank for Reconstruction and Development opened for it the large source of obtaining the long credits.
... "brought" and the energy crisis of the middle of the 70th was annual, and the sharp takeoff of the prices of the oil, which Rumania began to buy in large quantities for the realization of arrogant plans Chaushesku. Obtaining yearly 10-11 millions. t of oil, Rumania began to buy almost doubly more. In this case the volumes of the oil processed in the country rapidly grew (with 22,6 millions. t in 1982 to 30,6 millions. t in 1989 g.) both for purposes of the expansion of the export of petroleum products for the boundary and for the needs of petroleum chemistry - the plans of its forced development, deprived of real basis, were developed under the management of "academician" to Helen Ceausescu.
Up to 1979 of Ceausescu rescued the support of the Iranian Shah, who presented Chaushesku truly priceless gift in the form of barter agreement to the Iranian oil on the stable prices. The overthrow of Shah led to the radical revision of Iranian agreement. Since 1979 of Rumania it was necessary to pay for the oil with currency on the world prices, and the plants, built to the bank credits, were very energy-consuming enterprises. One aluminum complex in Slatine consumed as much energy, as entire Bucharest. In pursuit of industrialization power expenditures completely were not allowed, meanwhile the prime cost of the production of some Rumanian enterprises was 3-4 times more expensive than western analogs. All this did not have special importance, until universal prices of the oil are low, but with the sharp jump of prices Rumanian industry proved to be in grave condition. It is only annual Rumanian management it realized toward the end of the 70th, which fell into the economic trap: the countries of the West completely did not need the production of the enormous power of Rumanian giant plants, as they do not require the finished product or even in polusyr'e. the "independent" policy led to the fact that THE USSR together with other neighbors of Rumania on the eastern block could not use these power, since they were originally not integrated into the economy COMECON - COUNCIL FOR MUTUAL ECONOMIC ASSISTANCE, yes even barter "convertible" ruble COMECON - COUNCIL FOR MUTUAL ECONOMIC ASSISTANCE was not received as western banks. SRR rushed into the countries of the third peace, but they proved to be poor and they were not capable of concluding transactions in such volumes, although they needed Rumanian production. Rumania was confidently placed on the elbows the successful West. The severe alternative arose before the country: to swim with the flow all of the increasing debts, or to convert the 23- millionth country in one large donor. The alternate path was selected, and for this of Rumania it was necessary to yearly ensure the positive balance of commercial balance in the size of 2 billion dollars, in connection with how the domestic market it were openly deprived of those goods, which could be exported, in particular food. Simultaneously with this sharply was reduced import from the West, due to which up to 1981 in the larger measure was ensured normal operation and modernization of industrial enterprises. Circle was locked.

So mate Romania took credits not "like any other country" . This was the personal initiative of the Rumanian management to construct the "special independent economy".
Of couse it was the blame of the USSR , wasn't it ?



Lucky you!
Romanian rations (of course with queing):
200g salami person/month;
1 kg meat/family/month (it doesn't matter the size of the family);
10 eggs/family/month;
1.5 liter sunflower oil/family/month;
1 kg sugar/family/month
2 bread/person/day;

I AM NOT LUCKY , Dani.
I remember the times (1993-94) when i was a student in Krasnodar. I live in 1 dollar in day.
I ate only porridge, bread with butter and tea. On the output in me was holiday when I it could eat up meat. In the daytime I learned at the university ( glory to god at that time formation it was free) and evenings it earned additionally on the building. Money it was very little and my parents little could to me soak.

I am sorry, talking "situation was more worst than ...in Poland in 1982" I don't mean to insult you.
please understand me correctly.
I allow that in you are heavy recollections about this period.
But could you try to understand my point.

cheers.

Chevan
08-05-2006, 04:50 PM
More interest information about Romania and its western friends.

.....Here are some numbers of this run against the current: 1980. - the debt of 11 billion dollars; 1981-1 - 10,1; 1985-1 - 7; 1986-1 - 6,4.. But the West could not allow Rumania to leave the debt pit on the credits, given TO SRR after 1980, the balance of its debts to International Bank for Reconstruction and Development in 1987 increased by 50 % (about 250 million dollars). This was the consequence of the fact that currency realignment they were used only in the attitude of debtors, and also by the consequence of the currency speculations from the side MBRR. They equalized the Western countries and shook down their financial relations due to the eastern neighbors, but most important they attempted by all forces to hold the latter in the percent yoke of their credits. As a result of an increase in the debts of Rumania MBBR "on the currency risk" it sustained significant financial losses, paying out high money payments and interest rates. Briefly, it was necessary not only to preserve the undertaken rate of payment, but also to increase it to the increased percentages, but for this it was necessary to search for new internal possibilities, to break the already working model. 11 billion dollars of original debt as a result took the shape for Rumania of 21 billion! But perhaps it is possible in the dollar calculation to estimate those victims, which carried a Rumanian people, a quantity of hungry old men and nerodivshikhsya children?! In the middle 1980- X is annual world democratic press much she wrote about the shortage of food products in SRR, about the economic sanctions with respect to Rumanian food export. The humane West, the advocate of the rights of man, could without the special labor, takeing into account catastrophic position in the country, "to soften" payment conditions it was debt, but it did not make this! To chaushesku to no one it went to the bow - neither to THE USSR, the first signs of political apathy and economic disintegration of which it felt even in the beginning of the 80th (but for it this was the obvious warning of the fact that could expect Rumania) nor to the West - observing, as many of its former partners in the eastern block get in economically depending on the latter. The Rumanian economy of that period can be described as boundless by considering either which or with what victims tendency toward the complete independence of the country from any influence. Way to the independence lay through the payment of the external debt. Savings on everything, even vitally necessary, was elevated into the rank of state policy. According to official instructions, in the apartment it was permitted to light up only one lamp with a power of 15 watts, the use of refrigerators and other domestic electric appliances was in winter categorically forbidden, just as the use of gas for the heating of living quarters. Disturbances were revealed by that created for this purpose the "economic police" and punished by penalties, and then by turning off of gas and electric power. Hot water into the apartments practically was not given, but television worked 2-3 hours in a 24 hour period. The consumption of electric power per capita of population in Rumania was then lowest in Europe. The country was forced to sit down on the hungry ration. Were again introduced the food cards, abolished in 1954, and was developed the "program of scientific nourishment". The consumption of meat was reduced with 45 kg per capita in 1980 to 37,2 in 1988. Since the beginning of the 80th it is annual in Bucharest they began increasingly more frequently to appear the exhausted and barefooted peasants, and peasant children, running out to the passing trains, requested bread. The domestic market entered a total of about 14,6 % finished textiles, 11,6 % foot-wear, 6,3 % gasoline, that were being produced in the country. In recent years of administration to Nikolai chaushesk the everyday food of people in essence they composed bread, sweet pepper and brynza. The piece of meat then was luxury, and the best gift was considered small kulechek the natural coffee grains. The winters, when for people it was necessary to live in the houses at a temperature in 10-12 degrees, were especially heavy. Certainly, old men first did not maintain... In some separately unhappy districts of the country of the newly born babies they recorded only at the age of six months, thus hiding from the world community the true numbers of child mortality, caused by malnutrition and absence of medicines. Rumania not brezgovala by in no way. It was the only country of eastern block, which converted emigration into the profitable matter. To chaushesku it discussed simply and clearly: the one who was borne, grew, were obtained free education and medical service in one country, it cannot simply so change it for another, without having paid off according to all calculations. For each German, who leaves Rumania, THE FRG introduced to the Rumanian external calculations 5 thousand West German stamps, and the Jewish communities of the West were forced to pay adequate sum of the American dollars for each "head". In this case that driving off was forced according to the Rumanian laws to return its property - value, machine, house - to special state estimated commission. This "slave trade", which caused extreme irritation in the civilized peace, gave into the treasury of state the specific stable arrival in SKV, which also went into the payment of western debt. We can by the gloomiest paints depict "gold epoch" Chaushesku, hate and despise this person, compare him with Hitler, Stalin, with whom it is convenient, but we cannot but recognize historic evidence: the country became only in the world state, which paid off debts. - respectively - received the possibility to freely manage entire that coming from foreign trade in currency. On 12 April, 1989, at the plenum of Central Committee of the RKP Nikolai chausheska it solemnly stated to entire peace about the complete payment by Rumania external indebtedness. !!!

Dani
08-05-2006, 05:06 PM
Now should we go back on topic and discuss about the USSR and the communist ideolgy?

Dani
08-05-2006, 05:14 PM
I AM NOT LUCKY , Dani.


Sorry mate, I was talking to our Polish friends.;)

As you told us, in the USSR there weren't such kind of problems. It means that the whole Central and Eastern Europe have failed to apply the communism as Lenin, Marx and Stalin thought of. What about USSR? Khrushchev had started the disaster or somebody else?

Firefly
08-06-2006, 07:09 AM
Maybe we should change the title of this to add the fact that the discussion is also about what it was like to live in both the communist and post communist world.

I have to admit that living here in the UK I have no experience of the things that you Eastern European guys have had to go through and I find it highly interesting.

Kovalski
08-07-2006, 02:56 AM
What about USSR? Khrushchev had started the disaster or somebody else?
Once I read an article which author followed the Max Weber's theory of ideal type. In his opinion Soviet Union in 1952 had the clostest form to the theoretical model of communism. It reffered to all aspect of communist states: economics, social issues, totalitarian state, terror, overwheliming control, monopoly for information, propaganda, power politics etc.
So I assume that the degradation took place after Stalin's death.

Lancer44
08-07-2006, 05:15 AM
1952. Some people - not historians - people which lived through this time, remembered it as the darkest time in modern history of Poland. In 1952 Poland changed name - from Republic of Poland, (Rzeczpospolita Polska), the official name from 1569, become PEOPLE REPUBLIC OF POLAND.
In 1952 Poland get new constitution based on Stalin's constitution of USSR.
In 1952 soviet builders started works on ugliest palace ever build in Poland - Palace of Culture and Science named after Josip Stalin - greatest friend of Poland...
In 1952 General Emil Fieldorf "Nil", legend of Home Army received death sentence.
In March 1952 communist government of Poland protested when US Congress Commision investigated Katyn massacre and without doubt pointed towards NKVD as perpetrator of the crime.
In April 1952 rationing coupons were introduced for ordering meat meals in restaurants.
In May 1952 rationing of soap and washing powder was introduced.
In August 1952 compulsory deliveries of potatoes introduced - in practice individual farmers had to give away their harvest for free.
It was a way to force collective farming.
In 1952 - second after WWII "elections" - there was only one list of candidates and it contained exact number of "parliamentarians" to be elected.
1952 was a year in which communist plague which occupied Poland nearly managed to steal any hope people could have.

In 1953 there was a glimpse of hope, when "Genius Of Progressive Humanity, Greatest Military Commander from times of Alexander the Great - Generalissimus Stalin", carked with a little help of Lavrientij Beria.

Another glimpse of hope in 1956 - workers of Poznan revolted and communist authorities admitted that in this town: "People's power was abolished for 3 days".
I remember old people saying, that when they heard it on the radio, they treated these words as the most beautiful news from 1944.
Than 1956 - Uprising in Budapest and people were not frightened anymore. This was the very beginning of the END.

I believe that the same 1952 was memorable in Romania, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and other countries occupied by soviet plague or governed by agents of Moscow.

Cheers,

Lancer44

Chevan
08-07-2006, 08:39 AM
Sorry mate, I was talking to our Polish friends.;)

As you told us, in the USSR there weren't such kind of problems. It means that the whole Central and Eastern Europe have failed to apply the communism as Lenin, Marx and Stalin thought of. What about USSR? Khrushchev had started the disaster or somebody else?

Dani, there were not communists countries - only socialists ( witch were rules by communists parties).
The economic models of socialism in the different countries of Soviet block were differed from each other. For example in Hungary were widely used market principles, which greatly facilitated the unhealthy processes of the crash of communism in this country and allowed it sufficiently easy to be poured into economy EU.
As far as THE USSR is concerned, living conditions were there much better than in Russia 90 yr. besides the small numbers of oligarchs like Abramovich or Khodorkovskiy, bulk of people began to live more badly after the disintegration OF THE USSR.
In THE USSR there were their problems. For example ,Soviet industry for long could not master the mass production of video tape recorders and home computers. I very for long could not purchase its my first computer (analog ZX-spectrum). I purchased it only into 1992 when it already hopeless it became obsolete.
But in 1993 prices sharply took off upward, and to me it was already not to the new computer. Certainly in the life in THE USSR there were their problems, but if you please, gentlemen, it is not necessary to speak nonsense about the long turns and the the terrible KGB.
I is confident that Soviet economy with the introduction of market mechanisms it could be very effective (as China). Simply national reguluses decided to snatch a little more authorities.
But simple people lost.

Chevan
08-07-2006, 09:10 AM
1952. Some people - not historians - people which lived through this time, remembered it as the darkest time in modern history of Poland. In 1952 Poland changed name - from Republic of Poland, (Rzeczpospolita Polska), the official name from 1569, become PEOPLE REPUBLIC OF POLAND.
In 1952 Poland get new constitution based on Stalin's constitution of USSR.
In 1952 soviet builders started works on ugliest palace ever build in Poland - Palace of Culture and Science named after Josip Stalin - greatest friend of Poland...
In 1952 General Emil Fieldorf "Nil", legend of Home Army received death sentence.
In March 1952 communist government of Poland protested when US Congress Commision investigated Katyn massacre and without doubt pointed towards NKVD as perpetrator of the crime.
In April 1952 rationing coupons were introduced for ordering meat meals in restaurants.
In May 1952 rationing of soap and washing powder was introduced.
In August 1952 compulsory deliveries of potatoes introduced - in practice individual farmers had to give away their harvest for free.
It was a way to force collective farming.
In 1952 - second after WWII "elections" - there was only one list of candidates and it contained exact number of "parliamentarians" to be elected.
1952 was a year in which communist plague which occupied Poland nearly managed to steal any hope people could have.

In 1953 there was a glimpse of hope, when "Genius Of Progressive Humanity, Greatest Military Commander from times of Alexander the Great - Generalissimus Stalin", carked with a little help of Lavrientij Beria.

Another glimpse of hope in 1956 - workers of Poznan revolted and communist authorities admitted that in this town: "People's power was abolished for 3 days".
I remember old people saying, that when they heard it on the radio, they treated these words as the most beautiful news from 1944.
Than 1956 - Uprising in Budapest and people were not frightened anymore. This was the very beginning of the END.

I believe that the same 1952 was memorable in Romania, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and other countries occupied by soviet plague or governed by agents of Moscow.

Cheers,

Lancer44

Lancer, in THE USSR into 1952-53 was also very difficult.
My grandmother told me as she it sewed to its children clothing from the old mattress, so that they could walk into the school. Although no longer there was hunger, problems with food products constantly appeared.
Me does not seem that situation in Poland was worse than in THE USSR in 1950 yars.
This was explained, first of all, by ruin after WW2. And by the beginning of the Cold War.

Mate, I understand that in all its misfortunes convenient to blame neighbor (USSR). Problem in the fact that now in the West already no one pecks to a similar rhetoric " insulting by THE USSR".
It is necessary to look in the future.
No one will give money.
Old is debt no one it will copy.
But relations with Russia are already damaged finally.
But these are your selection, dear Polish friends.
I hope that your "contemporary prosperity" not will have for you unpleasant consequences.

Cheers.

Lancer44
08-07-2006, 09:18 PM
Lancer, in THE USSR into 1952-53 was also very difficult.
My grandmother told me as she it sewed to its children clothing from the old mattress, so that they could walk into the school. Although no longer there was hunger, problems with food products constantly appeared.
Me does not seem that situation in Poland was worse than in THE USSR in 1950 yars.
This was explained, first of all, by ruin after WW2. And by the beginning of the Cold War.

Mate, I understand that in all its misfortunes convenient to blame neighbor (USSR). Problem in the fact that now in the West already no one pecks to a similar rhetoric " insulting by THE USSR".
It is necessary to look in the future.
No one will give money.
Old is debt no one it will copy.
But relations with Russia are already damaged finally.
But these are your selection, dear Polish friends.
I hope that your "contemporary prosperity" not will have for you unpleasant consequences.

Cheers.

Of course situation just after the war was difficult. Everywhere. Poland and USSR suffered the most. 39% of everything was completely destroyed. It was not easy to start farming on fields full of mines etc. etc. In 1945 and 1946 situation was allewiated by UNRRA deliveries and rationing of food was natural.
In 1948 rationing was lifted and situation started to improve.
1952 rationing was caused purely by forced by Stalin push towards collective farming. Same scenario like in 1930 in the Ukraine. Fortunately they did not manage to get it to the point of famine.
Because of Stalin's wish, Poland also refused to join Marshall plan.
(Look how Western Europe looks now and compare it with Poland and Ukraine.)

Cold war started and instead of producing much needed consumer goods Poland had to produce T-34-85s, than T-55s, and finally T-72.
Plus billions of dollars worth of other soviet requested junk which either rusted in the barracks of polish army or was sent as "international aid" to Korea, Vietnam, Angola, Kuba and other crazy places invented by our great soviet neighbour in attempt to set the world on fire.

And point by point - tell me, when I say anything which is not true, please.
Do you remember who invaded Hungary in 1956? Australian Aborygenes? Or Eskimo people?
Who invaded Czechoslovakia in 1968? I know what you tell me - Poland participated in Operation Dunai. True, Poland together with other Warsaw Pact countries invaded. But on who's order? Could they refuse, disobey Moscow orders? What do you think?
In 1980. Which army set the biggest military exercises near polish border? Belgian perhaps...

So don't you think that people in countries liberated from "brotherhood" of USSR are a bit suspicious if something like that is happening in Russia?

http://www.newswithviews.com/news_worthy/news_worthy38.htm

http://www.bluefieldnews.net/columns/051121-kinchen-thumbs.html

Dzherzhinsky monument in the center of Warsaw in "Dzerzhinsky Square" (pl. Plac Dzierżyńskiego), was hated by the population of the Polish capital as a symbol of soviet oppression and was toppled down in 1989, as soon as the PZPR started losing power, the square's name was soon changed to its pre-second world war name "Plac Bankowy" (pl. Bank square). According to a popular joke in the latter-day People's Republic of Poland, "Dzerzhinsky deserved a monument for being the Pole to kill the largest number of communists".

An exact copy of the statue of Iron Felix that pro-democracy crowds tore down in Moscow in 1991, was unveiled in Belarusian capital Minsk on March 26, 2006. Belarusan KGB chief was present at the ceremony and said that Belarusan KGB should follow the example of Dzerzhinsky in its activities.

As you probably know Dzherzinsky monument - smaller version was last year unveiled in Lubianka courtyard.

How can you explain this? For outside observer explanation is very simple.
Can you imagine outcry if Germans decided to erect monument with Himmler statue? It is exactly the same.

Chevan
08-08-2006, 08:47 AM
Of course situation just after the war was difficult. Everywhere. Poland and USSR suffered the most. 39% of everything was completely destroyed. It was not easy to start farming on fields full of mines etc. etc. In 1945 and 1946 situation was allewiated by UNRRA deliveries and rationing of food was natural.
In 1948 rationing was lifted and situation started to improve.
1952 rationing was caused purely by forced by Stalin push towards collective farming. Same scenario like in 1930 in the Ukraine. Fortunately they did not manage to get it to the point of famine.
Because of Stalin's wish, Poland also refused to join Marshall plan.
(Look how Western Europe looks now and compare it with Poland and Ukraine.)

Cold war started and instead of producing much needed consumer goods Poland had to produce T-34-85s, than T-55s, and finally T-72.
Plus billions of dollars worth of other soviet requested junk which either rusted in the barracks of polish army or was sent as "international aid" to Korea, Vietnam, Angola, Kuba and other crazy places invented by our great soviet neighbour in attempt to set the world on fire.

And point by point - tell me, when I say anything which is not true, please.
Do you remember who invaded Hungary in 1956? Australian Aborygenes? Or Eskimo people?
Who invaded Czechoslovakia in 1968? I know what you tell me - Poland participated in Operation Dunai. True, Poland together with other Warsaw Pact countries invaded. But on who's order? Could they refuse, disobey Moscow orders? What do you think?
In 1980. Which army set the biggest military exercises near polish border? Belgian perhaps...

So don't you think that people in countries liberated from "brotherhood" of USSR are a bit suspicious if something like that is happening in Russia?

http://www.newswithviews.com/news_worthy/news_worthy38.htm

http://www.bluefieldnews.net/columns/051121-kinchen-thumbs.html

Dzherzhinsky monument in the center of Warsaw in "Dzerzhinsky Square" (pl. Plac Dzierżyńskiego), was hated by the population of the Polish capital as a symbol of soviet oppression and was toppled down in 1989, as soon as the PZPR started losing power, the square's name was soon changed to its pre-second world war name "Plac Bankowy" (pl. Bank square). According to a popular joke in the latter-day People's Republic of Poland, "Dzerzhinsky deserved a monument for being the Pole to kill the largest number of communists".

An exact copy of the statue of Iron Felix that pro-democracy crowds tore down in Moscow in 1991, was unveiled in Belarusian capital Minsk on March 26, 2006. Belarusan KGB chief was present at the ceremony and said that Belarusan KGB should follow the example of Dzerzhinsky in its activities.

As you probably know Dzherzinsky monument - smaller version was last year unveiled in Lubianka courtyard.

How can you explain this? For outside observer explanation is very simple.
Can you imagine outcry if Germans decided to erect monument with Himmler statue? It is exactly the same.
Hi Lancer.
Bad new from Poland I heared yesterday on 1 Canal.
Teleserial "4 tankers & dog" was sent for the archive and more not will be demonstrated on the Polish television as "politically incorrect".
So mate, political censorship in Poland present even today.
I watched also interview with the Polish veteran of the army Of Lyudova (which warred together with the Red Army). He said that it was distressed by the fact that in Poland nonobjectively it is today minimized the role of the army Of Lyudova. Today "in the mode" new heroes from the army Kraiovoi( Home Army).
Is certain, this private affair of Poles, whom to consider heroes at the specific moment of time. The history of Poland shows as this time (as mode) it can rapidly change to the opposite. But I am somewhat distressed, that people which brave battled together with the Russians against the Germans (about which film "4 tankers & dog") now they became the "veterans of the second-sort" in Poland.
Now about your post.


1952 rationing was caused purely by forced by Stalin push towards collective farming. Same scenario like in 1930 in the Ukraine. Fortunately they did not manage to get it to the point of famine.

The creation of collective farming was the necessary condition for industrialization. Collectivization in THE USSR in the 30- yr. made it possible to build in the country the powerfull heavy industry, which played the decisive role in WW2.
although this and it was carried out due to the peasantry, by sufficiently rigid methods, nevertheless collectivization played its positive role in the industrialization. As far as Poland is concerned, postroyenye to the means from the collectivization it industrially became one of the strong in East Europe. Although now it remained from this practically nothing.
Lancer , did you see goods with the inscription "made in Poland"? May be in Australia it is?


Do you remember who invaded Hungary in 1956? Australian Aborygenes? Or Eskimo people?
These were combat Soviet bears with the nuclear balalaikas :-)))
Do you remember who help they?

Who invaded Czechoslovakia in 1968? I know what you tell me - Poland participated in Operation Dunai. True, Poland together with other Warsaw Pact countries invaded. But on who's order? Could they refuse, disobey Moscow orders?

Yes, they could refuse.
This wrote Mazurov K.T.( Representative of the Politbureau CC KPSU in Czechoslovakia in 1968) his work "Recollections about the introduction of Soviet troops into Czechoslovakia during August 1968"
http://historydoc.edu.ru/catalog.asp?cat_ob_no=13415&ob_no=13416#_edn2


...After the management OF CSR refused to arrive in Warsaw for the conversations with the leaders of the fraternal countries, was possible to agree about the encounter the Politbureau of the CC CPSU and presidium OF TSK KPCH in Cierne- above -Gisso. Encounter was painful. We are somewhat hour they sat against each other in the accomodation some of school. The collocutors repeated to all our reasons, that to us not about which to worry. They parted coldly. In the train no one slept to Moscow: what to make?

According to the results of encounter they composed note for the leaders of fraternal parties. They constantly rang, proposed the solutions. On the most rigid steps insisted Ulbricht (DDR) and Gomulka (Poland). In spite of nuances, general position was united: it is necessary to entering the troops.

I am astonished, that the Polish comrades appeared bright initiative itself they proposed to Brezhnev to introduce troops into Czechoslovakia. What them thus did frighten?
With exception of Rumania (against) and Yugoslavia (it restrained) all leaders of socialist republics hotly supported intrusion into Czechoslovakia.
I am sure if some of the Eastern Europeans leaders engaged strictly negative position to the introduction of troops, then possibly Brezhnev did not begin to use force (as like in 1980 in Poland).
But unfortunately, most of leaders supported this solution, and some (as, for instance, Poland , DDR , Hungary(!!!) and Bulgary) granted even friendly forces for this.
Therefore, my friend, I do not see the reasons to lie down responsibility only in THE USSR.
My person oppinion about it is Czechoslovak military operation was carry ouied very professionally and it is rapid. Although the West he tried the on- possibility to kindle the military conflicts (as in Hungary into 1956). It perished only 72 citizens of Czechoslovakia and 12 Soviet soldiers and officers.

http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/8118/attachnr1.jpg
Czechoslovakia 1968.
"terrible Soviet occupiers".
Soviet T -54 is set fire by "peaceful" citizens. While one tanker tries to extinguish fire thus far fuel tank did not explode, another tries not to allow to approach no one to the blazing machine. The citizens of Prague obtain pleasure from the helplessness of Soviet crew.
Becouse it was the STRICT ORDER - WEAPON NOT TO USE

Can you to imagine , dear friend , such situation, as example in modern Baghdad. One "peace-loving" Iraqi rebel ignites american Abrams. What will make American crew?
Yes you right, it will shoot from the machine gun of all whom he will see on the street, and then it will cause the air bomb reinforcement.


In 1980. Which army set the biggest military exercises near polish border?
And how many million Poles perished under the caterpillars of the Soviet tanks in 1980? Tell me, how many polish sitizents did perish from the Soviet humanitarian bombardments (like in 1998 in Serbia)?


As you probably know Dzherzinsky monument - smaller version was last year unveiled in Lubianka courtyard.
How can you explain this? For outside observer explanation is very simple..

And How can you explain the memorials of WaffenSS in Baltic states? For inside observer explanation also is very simple...
How can you explain the square (or street) of name of Dgohar Dudaev in Warsav?
I think all of this thingh are very irrational.
But if somebody place monuments to Fascist allies, somebody call streets by name of terrorists, then he ought not to be surprised at monuments Dzherzinsky in neighbors state.

Cheers.

Man of Stoat
08-09-2006, 03:20 AM
Collectivisation was necessary for industrialisation? As perhaps the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard -- why is a farming system which causes food shortages necessary for industrialisation? The rest of the world didn't need it, and didn't suffer food shortages as a result.

Lancer44
08-09-2006, 05:28 AM
Collectivisation was necessary for industrialisation? As perhaps the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard -- why is a farming system which causes food shortages necessary for industrialisation? The rest of the world didn't need it, and didn't suffer food shortages as a result.

Hi MoS,

There is some idea even in complete madness. LOL

Collectivisation meant departure of millions of small farmers and their families right to Gulag camps or forced re-settlement villages.
In this way, army of slaves was created, which in turn helped greatly in industrialisation. Hunger and famine were just by-products of "lesser evil" and "higher neccessity".

Do not underestimate genius of comrad Stalin - "The Sun of Progressive Part of Humanity and Saviour of the World".

And tip: Trying to understand "comrades", do not use your exemplary logic and wit. It doesn't work... They are beyond comprehension!

Cheers mate!

Lancer44

Chevan
08-09-2006, 08:44 AM
Collectivisation was necessary for industrialisation? As perhaps the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard -- why is a farming system which causes food shortages necessary for industrialisation? The rest of the world didn't need it, and didn't suffer food shortages as a result.
Hi MoS
I see ,you actually nothing know about the history of USSR.
You forgot that "the rest of the world" never it developed industry under the conditions of practically economic blockade as Soviet Russia during 1930 yy.
Yes, collectivization was an indispensable condition for industrialization in THE USSR. Collectivization allowed state to use profit from sale of agricultural products on the world market for the purchase of equipment and machine tools for the new Soviet plants.
Today no one speaks about this, but in 1930 the industry OF THE USSR produced enormous increase.
Without THE OIL export, without THE GAS solding, without the Western credits practically in 10 years in THE USSR were created the heavy industry, one of the powerful in the world. These were a great the miracle.
When you speak about the misfortunes of collectivization, you confuse it with another process "dekulakization". Dekulakization occurred befor the collectivization, this was the real robbery of peasants. State forcedly selected products of peasants, which in the consequence led to the hunger into 1932-33 in some regions.
Bitter truth in the fact that without having the foreign exchange earnings (as, for instance, now oil and gas) THE USSR built powerful industry on the "bones of peasants".
In THE USSR no one wanted to pack investment. Almost no one in the West thought that Communists for long they will live . However, energetic government's actions created before WW2 the industry, which even after 50% of loss after German blitzkrieg, into 1943 could produce ( partially use raw material of lend-lease) it is more weapon than the industry of united Fascist Europe.
I do not protect Stalin, understand me correctly, please.
But it is not need to tell nonsense, particularly if you never lived in THE USSR.

Cheers.

Chevan
08-09-2006, 09:05 AM
Hi MoS,

There is some idea even in complete madness. LOL
And tip: Trying to understand "comrades", do not use your exemplary logic and wit. It doesn't work... They are beyond comprehension!

Lancer44
Lancer, I am not "comrade", especially for you.
But this not to mean that I will allow itself to pass to the personal insults.
Please, using "your exemplary logic and wit" , read more different sources, not just "political-correct like Wikipedia".


Collectivisation meant departure of millions of small farmers and their families right to Gulag camps or forced re-settlement villages

It's rubbish, mate.

Cheers.

Man of Stoat
08-09-2006, 09:23 AM
Millions of peasants refused collectivisation, and were arrested, then shot or deported. Fact.


In November 1929, the Central Committee decided to implement forced collectivisation. This marked the end of the New Economic Policy (NEP), which had allowed peasants to sell their surpluses on the open market. Grain requisitioning intensified, and wealthy peasants, or kulaks, were forced to join the collective farms, losing their private plots of land to the government. Stalin had many so-called "kulaks" transported to collective farms in distant places to work in agricultural labor camps. It has been calculated that one in five of these deportees, many of them women and children, died. In all, 6 million peasants lost their lives to the conditions of the transportation or the conditions of the work camps[1]. In response to this, many peasants initiated an armed resistance. As a form of protest, many peasants preferred to slaughter their animals for food rather than give them over to collective farms, which produced a major reduction in livestock.

Forced collectivisation led to famine. Fact. Its immediate effect was to reduce grain production and almost half livestock production (Hobspawm, "age of extremes",1994)

Man of Stoat
08-09-2006, 09:26 AM
Coming soon to a thread near you: Adolf Hitler's economic miracle of the 1930s, and why the Nazis weren't that bad really and everything you've ever read about them is wrong.

Lancer44
08-09-2006, 08:12 PM
Lancer, I am not "comrade", especially for you.
But this not to mean that I will allow itself to pass to the personal insults.
Please, using "your exemplary logic and wit" , read more different sources, not just "political-correct like Wikipedia".

It's rubbish, mate.

Cheers.

Can you, please quote where I "insulted you personally"?

I assume that books written by Western scholars about USSR economy and internal policies are not valid for you as a sources, I would advice you then to read your own authors - say Solzhenitsyn's "Gulag Archipelago".
I have this book right in front of me.

Cheers,

Lancer44

Lancer44
08-09-2006, 08:17 PM
Coming soon to a thread near you: Adolf Hitler's economic miracle of the 1930s, and why the Nazis weren't that bad really and everything you've ever read about them is wrong.

You're right MoS!

Using the same twisted logic, one may argue that because nazis needed synthetic rubber and also very much needed synthetic petrol, so Buna Monovitz vast complex which used exclusively slave labour from Auschwitz was a neccessity for them. How true!
This is leading directly to conclusion that existence of Auschwitz can be perfectly justified.

Lancer44

Chevan
08-10-2006, 02:15 AM
Millions of peasants refused collectivisation, and were arrested, then shot or deported. Fact.

Forced collectivisation led to famine. Fact. Its immediate effect was to reduce grain production and almost half livestock production (Hobspawm, "age of extremes",1994)

I do not deny violence above the peasants. Yes, the victims of dekulakization became many peasant families.
http://stalinism.newmail.ru/kulak.htm


In all for the years 1930 and 1931, as it is indicated in the information of division on the special-migrants of gulag OGPU the "information about the evicted kulaks in 1930-1931", it was sent for the special-settling of 381 026 families by the total number of 1 803 392 people.
... but on the place of residence were registered only 1 421 380 . Where did disappear the difference into 382 012 people?
Documentary given on this score found thus far could not be. However, to completely erroneously assume that all these people died.
First, many of them escaped from the places of settling. As we will see below, up to 1937 inclusively the number of those run constantly exceeded the number of dead persons in the reference, moreover considerably it exceeded. It is reasonable to assume that if in 1932 ran into two and the more of times more cams, than it died, then the same picture was observed also in 1930-1931 yr... after this active search of fugitives usually it was not conducted. For example, in the Arkhangyelsk province the commandants of special-settling declared their search only in such a case, when by them it randomly was possible to learn, where those run live. As the management of the division of working settlings of the gulag THE NKVD OF THE USSR during February 1939 in the report noted:
"using weakening regime, many peoples departed from special-settling, penetrated to the plants of defense value, power stations and other enterprises in the boundary, provincial centers and different cities. The removal of them from there and settlement in trudposelki meets difficulties in connection with the fact that they work at these enterprises the number of years, they acquired qualification, many knew how to obtain passport, they entered the marriage with other workers and employees and acquired in a number of cases by their houses and economy "

I agree that 1.5 million migrants for 80 millionth peasant populations OF THE USSR into 1930 - this is many. About 150 000 people perished as a result of forced migration.
But I don't see the reasons to talk about "millions ...shot or deported".


Forced collectivisation led to famine. Fact. Its immediate effect was to reduce grain production and almost half livestock production

Not in much regions OF THE USSR collectivization led to the hunger. It was noted on Ukranine (1932-33) and some of the Volga Region .
Moreover already at the end of 1936 was observed a considerable increase in the production and already no one thought about the hunger.

But it's of course don't mean that i protetect the communism ideology. I hate the bolsheviks with its crazy idea of "World proletariat revolution". They really killed in 1918-1921 millions of peoples.

Cheers.

Sneaksie
08-10-2006, 02:23 AM
I would advice you then to read your own authors - say Solzhenitsyn's "Gulag Archipelago".

LOL
There are some cute little facts about Solzhenitsyn fellow. For example, his arrest was provocated by himself - he wrote a letter to his 'friends' in which he wrote insults about Stalin. In that time he was RA officer and he 100% knowed that officer's and soldier's letters are censored (as in any fighting army of that time), he was not an naive child as you may think. He did it on purpose to harm that his 'friends' (or should we say 'enemies'?). During investigation he eagerly accused all these his 'friends' in numerous crimes, he even slandered his own wife. One of his 'friends' got 10 years for nothing (well, not for nothing, for being stupid enough to think that Solzh is his friend), while our hero was sentenced to 8. In camp he eagerly cooperated with prison authorities to get better treatment, etc.
In 1999, as i recall, he did another thing fitting to his personality.
He wrote the book where he accused jews in Russia's failures during last 300 years. Hello Dr. Goebbels!

Chevan
08-10-2006, 03:26 AM
Can you, please quote where I "insulted you personally"?

please:


..Trying to understand "comrades", do not use your exemplary logic and wit. It doesn't work... They are beyond comprehension!

I understand you hint to me as "comrades". Or maybe do you mean Dani or somebody else? Who are beyond comprehension?
Don't use ,please bolsheviks habit to divide the peoples into "its" and "stranger".
Logic , Lancer , is single , but sources of information( or propaganda) could be difference.


I assume that books written by Western scholars about USSR economy and internal policies are not valid for you as a sources, I would advice you then to read your own authors - say Solzhenitsyn's "Gulag Archipelago".
I have this book right in front of me.

No , I greatly love the work of western economists. I understand pluses of the market economy. And certainly I try to read many books of west authors . Many of them they prove the impossibility of the solution of contemporary problems under the conditions of contemporary capitalism.
I also very like of the work of western economists, where they reject "myth about prosperity" in modern East Europe, which some Western politics try to take into heads.
But if you like the such "correct historians" as Solzhenitsyn do not forget ,please, to read a little David Irving before the sleep.

Cheers.

Chevan
08-10-2006, 04:01 AM
The Prague population reaction in 1968 is pretty obvius, I will shock If I see some guys trowing flowers.

The Soviet involvement in the Angola war is more a F. Castro initiative than a Russian one, offcourse in both cases a comunist one.
But the reaction of Soviet troops to the obvious provocations is not completely obvious. I think that if this was the real military occupation of Czechoslovakia, then Soviet tankers would use weapon.
And what is about Angola? I nothing know about this.

Lancer44
08-10-2006, 07:06 AM
These were combat Soviet bears with the nuclear balalaikas :-)))
Do you remember who help they?

I do not remember who helped soviets in Hungary...


Yes, they could refuse.
This wrote Mazurov K.T.( Representative of the Politbureau CC KPSU in Czechoslovakia in 1968) his work "Recollections about the introduction of Soviet troops into Czechoslovakia during August 1968"

http://historydoc.edu.ru/catalog.asp?cat_ob_no=13415&ob_no=13416#_edn2

I am astonished, that the Polish comrades appeared bright initiative itself they proposed to Brezhnev to introduce troops into Czechoslovakia. What them thus did frighten?

With exception of Rumania (against) and Yugoslavia (it restrained) all leaders of socialist republics hotly supported intrusion into Czechoslovakia.

I am sure if some of the Eastern Europeans leaders engaged strictly negative position to the introduction of troops, then possibly Brezhnev did not begin to use force (as like in 1980 in Poland).

But unfortunately, most of leaders supported this solution, and some (as, for instance, Poland , DDR , Hungary(!!!) and Bulgary) granted even friendly forces for this.

Therefore, my friend, I do not see the reasons to lie down responsibility only in THE USSR.

Are you really think like that? Poland had no leader this time. Gomulka was soviet agent from the same stable like Bierut. And same thing you can say about other puppet regimes.

Yugoslavia had almost nothing to do with USSR and Romania was always "black sheep" because it was Caeucesku's role to play "independent". It was always convenient to Kremlin. Always... until Timisoara shots were fired. Dani can correct




My person oppinion about it is Czechoslovak military operation was carry ouied very professionally and it is rapid. Although the West he tried the on- possibility to kindle the military conflicts (as in Hungary into 1956). It perished only 72 citizens of Czechoslovakia and 12 Soviet soldiers and officers.

http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/8118/attachnr1.jpg
Czechoslovakia 1968.
"terrible Soviet occupiers".
Soviet T -54 is set fire by "peaceful" citizens. While one tanker tries to extinguish fire thus far fuel tank did not explode, another tries not to allow to approach no one to the blazing machine. The citizens of Prague obtain pleasure from the helplessness of Soviet crew.

Becouse it was the STRICT ORDER - WEAPON NOT TO USE

Can you to imagine , dear friend , such situation, as example in modern Baghdad. One "peace-loving" Iraqi rebel ignites american Abrams. What will make American crew?

Yes you right, it will shoot from the machine gun of all whom he will see on the street, and then it will cause the air bomb reinforcement.

Thanks for posting this photo. I had seen a few good ones but this is very nice. I will cherish it - burning soviet tank - I'm delighted. To be honest, rare photos from Budapest 1956 are better. How many tanks lost there? Do you remember?

720 dead soviet soldiers, 2500 insurgents. Many more wounded on both sides. In the name of what? Stupid ideology.


And how many million Poles perished under the caterpillars of the Soviet tanks in 1980? Tell me, how many polish sitizents did perish from the Soviet humanitarian bombardments (like in 1998 in Serbia)?

Fortunately none, zero, null. Poland had it's turn when more than 21,000 were shot in 1940, more than 1 million 300 thousand deported - out of them how many died? Please answer me if you know. After 1944 alltogether 300,000 died from soviet hands or their agents.


And How can you explain the memorials of WaffenSS in Baltic states? For inside observer explanation also is very simple...

How can you explain the square (or street) of name of Dgohar Dudaev in Warsav?
I think all of this thingh are very irrational.
But if somebody place monuments to Fascist allies, somebody call streets by name of terrorists, then he ought not to be surprised at monuments Dzherzinsky in neighbors state.

I can understand Baltic people. Waffen SS was one of the ways of fighting soviets...

Dudayevs roundabout in Warsaw... I thought it was a stupidity and provocation...

Cheers,

Lancer44

Dani
08-10-2006, 07:43 AM
How can you explain the square (or street) of name of Dgohar Dudaev in Warsav?
I think all of this thingh are very irrational.
But if somebody place monuments to Fascist allies, somebody call streets by name of terrorists, then he ought not to be surprised at monuments Dzherzinsky in neighbors state.
Dudayevs roundabout in Warsaw... I thought it was a stupidity and provocation...

Cheers,

Lancer44

Sorry mates for this break! Much to my surprise I was unable to find any clue on so called "naming of one's Warsaw streets after Dudaev" with exception of a Russian blog:


And now for the bad, or, to be more precise, disappointing but not surprising, news: Mosnews reports, "Every Chechen Town to Have a Street Named after Slain President Kadyrov (http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/08/09/kadyrovst.shtml)." Senseless, and clearly aimed at feeding young Ramzan's cult of personality. Mosnews observes:

"Soon after Kadyrov's death, a street in Moscow was named after him. This decision spread a wave of protest among Russian liberal parties that reminded of the fact that before taking Russians' side, Kadyrov was a warlord of a Chechen Islamist formation and called for a holy war against Russia.
Maybe if Basaev gives himself up and spends the last year of his life working with the Russians, they'll name streets after him, too. "

This story is actually tangentially related to the ongoing Russo-Polish diplomatic row as well, in that it involves Chechnya and street-naming. Apparently one of Russia's big beefs with Warsaw is that the city government of the Polish capital saw fit to name a square after Chechen rebel leader Djohar Dudaev. Russia's problematic relationship with Poland predates even its problematic relationship with Chechnya, so the ongoing hostility is not surprising, but I always find it odd that small, symbolic gestures can lead to so much taking of umbrage.

http://scrapsofmoscow.blogspot.com/2005/08/good-and-bad-news-from-chechnya.html

I will ask Kovalski to inform us about the truth on Warsaw's streets name;)

Edited: Oops! I forgot that I bolded something by mistake!

Kovalski
08-10-2006, 02:14 PM
In fact, there is a roundabout named after Dudayev. It's placed outside the city centre. Personally, if I was Russian I wouldn't bother myself about it.
It is a rather a problem of Poles who voted for these fools which make such stupid decisions. Naming of the roundabout was a political demonstration, not preceded by even the shorstest consideration.
Like Lancer44 said, "stupidity and provocation", nothing else.
I don't know how the whole case was described in Russian media, but I remeber that many, many polish authorities were against that.
But unfortunately, there came a time in Poland when fools are in charge, and they became stupid because they got too much power.

But why some members are outraged?
Dzochar Dudayev was:
- member of Communist Party of Soviet Union,
- soviet general,
- commander of soviet strategic bombers' unit,
- soviet war hero (he served as a bomber pilot during the war in Afghanistan).

You have a dual morality, gentelmen ;)
If someone is dropping bombs for us - it's ok,
but if someone is dropping bombs on us - it's very, very bad!

Dani
08-10-2006, 03:01 PM
But why some members are outraged?
Dzochar Dudayev was:
- member of Communist Party of Soviet Union,
- soviet general,
- commander of soviet strategic bombers' unit,
- soviet war hero (he served as a bomber pilot during the war in Afghanistan).

You have a dual morality, gentelmen ;)
If someone is dropping bombs for us - it's ok,
but if someone is dropping bombs on us - it's very, very bad!

Very very interesting information Kovalski!:D

Chevan
08-10-2006, 03:39 PM
...But why some members are outraged?
Dzochar Dudayev was:
- member of Communist Party of Soviet Union,
- soviet general,
- commander of soviet strategic bombers' unit,
- soviet war hero (he served as a bomber pilot during the war in Afghanistan).

Really, Lancer , you do not have any reasons to be disturbed about of statue Dzherzhinskij on Lubyanka and in Minsk. This is the tribute of memory to great Soviet State Security Agent.
Looking as our Polish "comrades" reward Polish streets to the names of Soviet Hero , Russian State Security Agents adopted their experience.
Thats right.
Dzherzhinskij was
- member of Communist Party of Soviet Union,
- soviet general,
- commander of soviet State Security Agents ,
- soviet hero of civil war.

to devil a dual morality, gentelmen. :-)))))))))

As the continuation of good Polish tradition, I propose to rename Warsaw into Stalingrad.

Dani
08-10-2006, 04:19 PM
My Russian mates, was the Chechen outburst a consequence of the Soviet communist policy?

I just ask....

Kovalski
08-10-2006, 04:52 PM
Really, Lancer , you do not have any reasons to be disturbed about of statue Dzherzhinskij on Lubyanka and in Minsk. This is the tribute of memory to great Soviet State Security Agent.
Looking as our Polish "comrades" reward Polish streets to the names of Soviet Hero , Russian State Security Agents adopted their experience.
Thats right.
Dzherzhinskij was
- member of Communist Party of Soviet Union,
- soviet general,
- commander of soviet State Security Agents ,
- soviet hero of civil war.

to devil a dual morality, gentelmen. :-)))))))))

As the continuation of good Polish tradition, I propose to rename Warsaw into Stalingrad.

Chevan, I'm under the impression that you didn't understand my previous post. The whole meaning, not only the part about Dudayev.
Maybe some day...
Oh, and when you write about Feliks Dzierzynski, don't forget to add that his was POLISH :)
Lancer had mentioned once the interesting anecdote about Dzierzynski.
Try to associate the facts.;)

Chevan
08-11-2006, 03:14 AM
Are you really think like that? Poland had no leader this time. Gomulka was soviet agent from the same stable like Bierut. And same thing you can say about other puppet regimes...

Yes i realy think so.
Brezhnev doubted the need for introducing troops and Czechoslovakia, he feared the repetition of Hungarian events. But the brother-communists like Golul'ka and Ulbricht insisted on the political need of the introduction of troops, and Soviet Generals certified Brezhnev that operation it will pass rapidly and effective (they were right).
To me it's a very pity Chekhoslovakia citizens .
Certainly the introduction of troops was the direct disturbance of the sovereignty of the country. But necessary to return proper that Soviet management became more flexible and did not repeat Hungarian errors. Brezhnev refused in 1980 from the military action in Poland.
Mate , If Gomulka was "soviet agent " , then who were 3 millions of polish communists? Maybe Soviet Spis.


Yugoslavia had almost nothing to do with USSR and Romania was always "black sheep" because it was Caeucesku's role to play "independent". It was always convenient to Kremlin. Always...

Convenient to Kremlin !? And visits of different american presidents into Romania were Convenient to Kremlin also. Can you believe ,dear friend , that americans could do something "convenient to Kremlin"?


Thanks for posting this photo. I had seen a few good ones but this is very nice. I will cherish it - burning soviet tank - I'm delighted. To be honest, rare photos from Budapest 1956 are better.

Really do you delighted of burning soviet tanks?
Oh mate, wath lot of germans photo of damaged and burning soviet tanks and enjoy.
Wath the photo of murder soviet soldiers and enjoy.
But please, don't surprise after , that nobody in Russia even don't listen bullshit about Katyn.


How many tanks lost there? Do you remember?
720 dead soviet soldiers, 2500 insurgents. Many more wounded on both sides. In the name of what? Stupid ideology.

Yes, today it look like Stupid ideology.
But tel me please what "ideology" forced polish comrades in 1968 play active role in military operation. Why nobody of polish ruled elite didn't note to Breznev about "Stupid ideology", mate?



Fortunately none, zero, null. Poland had it's turn when more than 21,000 were shot in 1940, more than 1 million 300 thousand deported - out of them how many died? Please answer me if you know. After 1944 alltogether 300,000 died from soviet hands or their agents.

I really glad that nobody of Poles perished in 1980. I am far from agressive behavior to any pro-slav nation. But I think there are no reason to blame modern russians in deporting or killind poles in 1940-44. Condition were another. And not any time we were the friends ( unfortunately I can't recall when we were the real friends or allies).
I already told to you gentlemes, then polish "stones" to the Communism - it's "stones" to the russian-polish friendship.
As good example of decigion old problems is the russian-chech relationships. Without nationalist hysteria, and geting mutual profit.


I can understand Baltic people. Waffen SS was one of the ways of fighting soviets...

And now I can understand the State Secret Servis Agency .

Cheers.

Chevan
08-11-2006, 03:39 AM
Chevan, I'm under the impression that you didn't understand my previous post. The whole meaning, not only the part about Dudayev.
Maybe some day...
Oh, and when you write about Feliks Dzierzynski, don't forget to add that his was POLISH :)
Lancer had mentioned once the interesting anecdote about Dzierzynski.
Try to associate the facts.;)
No Kovalski , i quite good understand your "nice joke".
To name crossings over in Warsaw the name of the "Soviet hero" Djohar Dudaev .
It is very ridiculous. I tell to my friends about the touching concern of contemporary Polish government about the "heroes OF THE USSR". ;)

Sneaksie
08-11-2006, 03:52 AM
Thanks for posting this photo. I had seen a few good ones but this is very nice. I will cherish it - burning soviet tank - I'm delighted.

You are sick, Lancer. Only sick people would drool over photo of two guys in grave danger, which are risking their lives because they care about civilians. 99% people would just fire at the crowd which is trying to kill them. For example, do anyone remember last storming of Baghdad by americans when american tanker killed a journalist in a hotel balcony? In that case american tanker was perfectly right - this is war and he must assume that light blink from hotel means sniper and not some defective idiot who is trying to film the battle from cosy hotel balcony. Instead those two did nothing against civilians in response to assault.
BTW, do anybody have photos of horrible Soviet atrocities in Budapest 1956? I've found only photos of hungarians waving small arms, posing at cameras or happily killing their own people, executing them in the middle of the street (like this (http://www.grani.ru/files/23097.jpg) or this (http://www.msg-history.com/HistoricalItems/HI_Budapest_1956_Revolution5.jpg)) for being communists and such (and all for naught). Surely you have photos of Soviet army slaughtering everyone, no?


720 dead soviet soldiers, 2500 insurgents. Many more wounded on both sides. In the name of what? Stupid ideology.
Yes, yes, stupid ideology. These people died because some idiots decided that they can defeat entire Warsaw treaty bloc by executing police officers on the street.



After 1944 alltogether 300,000 died from soviet hands or their agents.

Really? Where and how they've died?


I can understand Baltic people. Waffen SS was one of the ways of fighting soviets...
Maybe you would understand UPA too? Slaughtering civilians was one of the ways of fighting poles...


If someone is dropping bombs for us - it's ok,
but if someone is dropping bombs on us - it's very, very bad!
Of course it is. Of course serving a country is an honor, and harming it is the opposite. Everybody choose a path to take. If Dudayev would not become a rebel and traitor - of course he would be admired for his service, especially by Chechens themselves. In Caucasus there is a cult of old, experienced people, especially military. For example, veterans of WW2 who served in Red Army are admired more than anyone else.


My Russian mates, was the Chechen outburst a consequence of the Soviet communist policy?

I just ask....
The Chechen outburst was an inevitable result of Yeltsin policy. Imagine yourelf living in Chechnya living peacefully during USSR rule and then your region is in flames and suddenly arisen warlords demanding you go with them and fight against regular army. Will you blame USSR policy for this? No, you would blame local idiots which decided they are too big for their pants and big idiot in Moscow which did nothing to stop it.
One man from Russian forum which served in Chechnya during war, wrote that one day he rode with old Chechen man (he paid him for passage in car to military base when he need quickly call for help for a broken APC and it's crew, radio was broken). The've talked a bit, and suddenly he asked the old man who do he think Russian soldiers are here - protectors or occupants and asked him to answer honestly. Old man looked down, thought for a few moments, and whispered: "If you would go away, in less than a month we would slaughter each other".
Almost from the start of war 50% and more combatants of bandit groups were arab mercs. Hardly a 'fight of Chechen people for independence'.
BTW, old man's words became true, when Chechnya had it's independence for around 2 years. It was time when Chechnya was independent officially and de-facto (but for some reason it received usual money from Federal Center). It was time of STATE LEVEL capturing of hostages for ransom (including Intl. Red Cross members), slavery, slaughtering of hostages, etc., etc. Schools and other social structures did not work. It all ended when guerillas tried to invade the neighboring Repiblic of Dagestan (part of Russian federation) to continue 'Islamic revolution' as they've called it. They've thinked it over perfectly, but they didn't understood that time has changed. There was different man in place of impotent alcoholic.

Dani
08-11-2006, 04:37 AM
The Chechen outburst was an inevitable result of Yeltsin policy. Imagine yourelf living in Chechnya living peacefully during USSR rule and then your region is in flames and suddenly arisen warlords demanding you go with them and fight against regular army. Will you blame USSR policy for this? No, you would blame local idiots which decided they are too big for their pants and big idiot in Moscow which did nothing to stop it.
One man from Russian forum which served in Chechnya during war, wrote that one day he rode with old Chechen man (he paid him for passage in car to military base when he need quickly call for help for a broken APC and it's crew, radio was broken). The've talked a bit, and suddenly he asked the old man who do he think Russian soldiers are here - protectors or occupants and asked him to answer honestly. Old man looked down, thought for a few moments, and whispered: "If you would go away, in less than a month we would slaughter each other".
Almost from the start of war 50% and more combatants of bandit groups were arab mercs. Hardly a 'fight of Chechen people for independence'.
BTW, old man's words became true, when Chechnya had it's independence for around 2 years. It was time when Chechnya was independent officially and de-facto (but for some reason it received usual money from Federal Center). It was time of STATE LEVEL capturing of hostages for ransom (including Intl. Red Cross members), slavery, slaughtering of hostages, etc., etc. Schools and other social structures did not work. It all ended when guerillas tried to invade the neighboring Repiblic of Dagestan (part of Russian federation) to continue 'Islamic revolution' as they've called it. They've thinked it over perfectly, but they didn't understood that time has changed. There was different man in place of impotent alcoholic.

Thanks for info Sneaksie.
As for the "incident" with Lancer I'll not comment since I already told that I'll not moderate this particular thread.

Chevan
08-11-2006, 04:49 AM
Sorry mates for this break! Much to my surprise I was unable to find any clue on so called "naming of one's Warsaw streets after Dudaev" with exception of a Russian blog:


I am not wonder that you nothing find about this in western WED , Dani,


On 17 March 2005 in the world appeared the 19th according to the calculation "territorial" name of the name Of Djohar Dydaev. To one of the areas of Warsaw the resolution of town soviet appropriated the name of the first President of Ichkeria. Deputies satisfied the initiative of oppositional party "right and validity":

"as in other countries supported us 20 years ago during the martial law, introduced by Communists, so also we are now morally obligated to support others, that protect our freedom", the mayor of Warsaw stated in regard to this, reports the site of Chechen separatists "Caucasus-center".

In the opinion of the British Financial Times, this solution "drove in" one additional nail into the "cover of the coffin" of Russian- Polish relations.
.... MID of Russia estimated awarding to the name Of Dydaev of area as the insult of the memory of the victims of acts of terror in Moscow and other cities RF and as the manifestation of support to international terrorism. The chairman of committee on the international affairs of Federation Council RF Mikhail Margelov stated that thus Poland condescended to the level of "European third peace".
Polish MID from the reciprocal statement restrained, reports RIA of "news"

. In the world there are 19 streets, which bear the name Dydaev. There are streets in Riga and Vilnius wanted to rename after tragedy in Beslane, but they left. There is a street with this name and in the western Ukraine - in Lvov.
http://today.viaduk.net/segodnya.nsf/0/83a...46?OpenDocument
http://www.podrobnosti.ua/kaleidoscope/200.../22/189152.html

As you can see gentlemens, polish elite don't wish to improve the situation.
Today we have area Baltic-Western Ukraine-Poland-( where do look the Georgia?) states , who consider the leader of terrorist as national hero.
Wiil They want soon to name something by Ben laden's name ?

Kovalski
08-11-2006, 05:27 AM
Chevan,
I'm sorry to say that, but I have agree with you.
When Warsaw's City Council decided to name the roundabout by Dudayev, Mr Lech Kaczynski was the president of Warsaw. It was up to him.
Now he is a president of Poland.
I'm not going to start the discussion about polish-russian relations.
But I have to admit that thanks to him, his brother and the rest politicians from PiS (Law and Justice party) we won't be able to warm up our mutual relations.
These gentelmen don't wish to do anything towards that direction for a simple reason. They need "bad" Russia to boost their ego, to show to the nation, "Look, how strong we are, we are patriots, we are not afraid of Russia!".
But unfortunately, that behavior will lead Poland astray.
For over 15 years Poland and Russia are unable to build normal relations.
Saying "normal" I don't mean close friendship etc., but normal partnership.
Everytime there's a chance to do something positive between our states, some idiot from Poland or from Russia does or says something irresonsible.
I'm afraid that the situation won't change as long as Kaczynski brothers are in charge here in Poland.
I got a mate who's studying Russian Philology in Torun. He couldn't invite his Russian friend for the festival in Kostrzyn, because they couldn't get the visas on time.
Thanks to politicians.;)

Lancer44
08-11-2006, 06:10 AM
Chevan,
I'm sorry to say that, but I have agree with you.
When Warsaw's City Council decided to name the roundabout by Dudayev, Mr Lech Kaczynski was the president of Warsaw. It was up to him.
Now he is a president of Poland.
I'm not going to start the discussion about polish-russian relations.
But I have to admit that thanks to him, his brother and the rest politicians from PiS (Law and Justice party) we won't be able to warm up our mutual relations.
These gentelmen don't wish to do anything towards that direction for a simple reason. They need "bad" Russia to boost their ego, to show to the nation, "Look, how strong we are, we are patriots, we are not afraid of Russia!".
But unfortunately, that behavior will lead Poland astray.
For over 15 years Poland and Russia are unable to build normal relations.
Saying "normal" I don't mean close friendship etc., but normal partnership.
Everytime there's a chance to do something positive between our states, some idiot from Poland or from Russia does or says something irresonsible.
I'm afraid that the situation won't change as long as Kaczynski brothers are in charge here in Poland.
I got a mate who's studying Russian Philology in Torun. He couldn't invite his Russian friend for the festival in Kostrzyn, because they couldn't get the visas on time.
Thanks to politicians.;)

I fully support Kovalsky and agree with Chevan. I already expressed my view that naming place after Dudayev was stupid provocation.
I also think that Poland and Russia should have normal, working relationship.
Perhaps not "love" or false friendship like after 1945, but normal relations not biased by hysterical interpretation of historical facts on both sides.
Kaczynski and his brother are not eternal. They will go soon.

Lancer44

Lancer44
08-11-2006, 06:29 AM
You are sick, Lancer. Only sick people would drool over photo of two guys in grave danger, which are risking their lives because they care about civilians. 99% people would just fire at the crowd which is trying to kill them.

Sneaksie, I don't drool over this photo.
For example widely publicised photographs of burned tanks of Kantemirovska Division in Grozny, deeply shocked me. I also had seen bones of burned tankers in Grozny eaten by stray dogs. Shocking.

Prague and Budapest are different stories. Entirely different.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/4690/prague3js3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Victim of the Invasion In the early days of the Russian offensive, an 18-year-old fireman was machine-gunned to death after climbing on to an advancing tank. Knowing that Tyszko was a photographer who had already eluded expulsion and that he could be relied upon, the dead fireman’s parents invited him to the crematorium mortuary to photograph their son’s corpse as a memorial to his courage. Tyszko also attended the funerals of other victims of the invasion. In the first month of occupation around 80 citizens of Prague and its environs were killed and around 800 wounded

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2360/prague7gk0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
His funeral.

BATTLE FOR RADIO PRAGUE
The Soviets knew that controlling the flow of information would be key to the success of their invasion. But, the Czechoslovaks knew that also. The Prague Radio Building on Vinohrodska Street, just behind the National Museum in the Central City, would be the center of resistance. Within minutes of the radio's invasion announcement, Czechoslovak youths began gathering on Vinohrodska Street. Using wood, stones, buses and trolley cars, they began constructing massive barricades across the street.
At 8:00 a.m. Soviet troops surrounded the station building. A woman announcer reported this to the listeners, noting that, "They are going to silence our voices, but they cannot silence our hearts." The microphone was passed from hand to hand as the announcers asked the audience to remain calm and have courage. One man held the microphone to the window so the listeners could hear machine gun fire outside. As her companions sobbed in the background, the first woman announcer came back on and reported, "They have entered the building, but we are still here and will be with you as long as we can hold out ... we are behind Dubcek and we will never give up, NEVER." Then the national anthem was played.

In fact, the troops hadn't entered the building yet. As they moved onto Vinohradska Street they were met by thousands of people waving Czechoslovak flags and screaming, "Russians, go home!" When the tanks moved towards the barricades, students ran out on the street with Molotov cocktails and flaming rags and newspapers to set the tanks on fire. Old mattresses, garbage, and wooden crates were added to the fires. The invaders were shocked by the strong resistance. They retreated, leaving one tank and two munitions trucks in flames in front of the barricades. Radio Prague would remain on the air a little longer. But, the Soviets regrouped and a few hours later launched another attack, this time smashing through the barricades. Just before 11:00 a.m., troops stormed into the radio building, the last place in Prague to fall. The station went off at 11:00 a.m.

Surprisingly, only 7 Czechoslovaks were killed in the two battles for the radio station, out of a total of 23 killed in Prague and other cities. Later in the afternoon, thousands of citizens carrying a blood splattered flag made a funeral procession along Vinohradska Street in honor of the fallen in the battle for Radio Prague.

from:http://www.swl.net/patepluma/genbroad/czech.html

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/4774/prague9ll0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

A view of the situation in front of Prague radio, 21 August 1968, at 10:35 a.m. They were still broadcasting from the building.

From: http://www.lib.umich.edu/spec-coll/czech/des26.html

Any comments? Comrad Sneaksie ... are you there?

Peaceful and friendly soviet forces were just defending themselves because outraged crowd wanted them killed...
The main question is what soviet tanks were doing in Prague?

BTW - Polish army, which this time was blindly following soviets, commandered by soviet agents, established quite friendly relationship with Czech people in Hradec Kralove area. No one polish tank was burned, no one on both sides was injured. It was simple fact that polish soldiers expressed openly thet they are ashamed being in Czechoslovakia. They were moved back to Poland after couple of weeks.

Sneaksie
08-11-2006, 07:48 AM
Surprisingly, only 7 Czechoslovaks were killed in the two battles for the radio station, out of a total of 23 killed in Prague and other cities.
It's not surprising at all, considering that shooting was prohibited. Imagine losses if Soviet Army behaved truly like an occupation army, they would be enormous (rebel losses of course). Imagine that some fools in Baghdad today will try to build barricades around radio station or throw Molotovs into american tanks. They would be wiped away in a matter of seconds. All these barricades, defending of radio stations is looking heroic, but in reality it's absolute folly of participants themselves and a horrible crime of their commanders who sent young stupid men to certain death with nice words 'for freedom' and such, knowing for sure that they cannot succeed. All this was done to achieve as many losses as possible and then public nice photos of heroic young men killed by evil Russians in western press. If not prohibition of shooting these schemers would have many nice photos. You posted photo of dead man who was killed after climbing on advancing tank. First, i seriously doubt he was 'machinegunned to death' - try shoot someone on top of tank from inside, there is such thing as 'deadzones' for machinegunes as well for cannon, as you know. He probably just fell off - but it's not the point. What his death did achieve? Nothing at all.
There are many examples young people sent to die for nothing. So-called 'Polish government in London' sent thousands of young men to certain death, pursuing the mirage of 'independent Poland' in an attempt to defeat Germans by paradrop operation in Warsaw. All this sea of blood is on their hands, hands of mofos who sat in London thinking they will outwit everybody. All participants in uprising died fighting for a goal they could not achieve - while these pieces of shit in London drank tea and talked about political situation. I hope they will burn in hell forever.

Dani
08-11-2006, 07:58 AM
It's not surprising at all, considering that shooting was prohibited. Imagine losses if Soviet Army behaved truly like an occupation army, they would be enormous (rebel losses of course). Imagine that some fools in Baghdad today will try to build barricades around radio station or throw Molotovs into american tanks. They would be wiped away in a matter of seconds.
Hold on Sneaksie! You cannot compare Iraq and USA on our times with Czechoslovakia and Soviet Union on that time. Also USA had started a war in Iraq. Soviet Union had started a war in Czechoslovakia and beat the Czech Army and fought with insurgents afterwhile?


There are many examples young people sent to die for nothing. So-called 'Polish government in London' sent thousands of young men to certain death, pursuing the mirage of 'independent Poland' in an attempt to defeat Germans by paradrop operation in Warsaw. All this sea of blood is on their hands, hands of mofos who sat in London thinking they will outwit everybody. All participants in uprising died fighting for a goal they could not achieve - while these pieces of shit in London drank tea and talked about political situation. I hope they will burn in hell forever.
What's your opinion about the human-wave tactic of the Red Army? Are Soviet commanders to be blamed?

Edited:

The attack across the Oder on to the Seelow heights begins at 5 a.m. on 16 April. Zhukov calls the confrontation the Red Army's "final hour of vengeance”. However, the offensive is poorly executed, takes longer than expected, and results in heavy casualties.

Over one million shells are fired against the German positions in one of the largest artillery barrages in history. The barrage is followed by human wave onslaughts of Soviet troops. After three days and the loss of 30,000 Red Army soldiers the German line is broken.
By 25 April the Soviet forces have encircled Berlin. The city now becomes the "Reichssheiterhaufen" - the "Reich's funeral pyre".
My bold. http://www.moreorless.au.com/heroes/zhukov.html
Or in Red Army's case, soldiers were sent to die for victory and the commanders were on the front line instead of drinking something in Moscow?

Chevan
08-11-2006, 01:58 PM
Chevan,
I'm sorry to say that, but I have agree with you.
When Warsaw's City Council decided to name the roundabout by Dudayev, Mr Lech Kaczynski was the president of Warsaw. It was up to him.
Now he is a president of Poland.
I'm not going to start the discussion about polish-russian relations.
But I have to admit that thanks to him, his brother and the rest politicians from PiS (Law and Justice party) we won't be able to warm up our mutual relations.
These gentelmen don't wish to do anything towards that direction for a simple reason. They need "bad" Russia to boost their ego, to show to the nation, "Look, how strong we are, we are patriots, we are not afraid of Russia!".
But unfortunately, that behavior will lead Poland astray.
For over 15 years Poland and Russia are unable to build normal relations.
Saying "normal" I don't mean close friendship etc., but normal partnership.
Everytime there's a chance to do something positive between our states, some idiot from Poland or from Russia does or says something irresonsible.
I'm afraid that the situation won't change as long as Kaczynski brothers are in charge here in Poland.
I got a mate who's studying Russian Philology in Torun. He couldn't invite his Russian friend for the festival in Kostrzyn, because they couldn't get the visas on time.
Thanks to politicians.;)
I don't believe to my eyes.
We are in right way, Kovalski.

Cheers.

Kovalski
08-11-2006, 03:31 PM
I don't believe to my eyes.
We are in right way, Kovalski.

Cheers.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.";)

It is not difficult to reach such conclusions. Sometimes thinking hard is enough, but many people are not used to such activity. If we agree about the present, we can discuss about the past.

Dani
08-12-2006, 12:50 AM
If we agree about the present, we can discuss about the past.

Absolutely! And this is the mainstream of this board.

Lancer44
08-14-2006, 06:35 AM
http://www.projectinposterum.org/docs/Torture.pdf
or
http://www.projectinposterum.org/docs/chodakiewicz1.htm

Here you can read paper of Professor Marek Jan Chodakiewicz: The Dialectics of Pain[1]: The Interrogation Methods of the Communist Secret Police in Poland, 1944-1955. Glaukopis, vol. 2/3 (2004-2005).

Marek Jan Chodakiewicz is Research Professor of History at the Institute of World Politics: A Graduate School of Statecraft and National Security in Washington, DC. He attended college in California. Having earned his Ph.D. at Columbia University, he taught at several schools in California, including Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles. Between 2001 and 2003 he was an assistant professor with the Kosciuszko Chair in Polish Studies at the University of Virginia. In April 2005 Chodakiewicz was appointed by President George W. Bush for a 5-year term to the United States Holocaust Memorial Council. He is the author and editor of numerous historical monographs, documentary collections, and scholarly articles on Poland's past. His latest works include Between Nazis and Soviets: Occupation Politics in Poland (2004), and After the Holocaust: Polish-Jewish Relations in the Wake of World War II (2003).

I hope that switching off the subject from blaming soviets for everything wrong during postwar period of history, to their polish helpers, will help our Russian friends understand some feelings which are rather common for all "ex-communist" countries.

"Torture was also the norm when the unfortunates were already serving their jail sentences. According to Mateusz Wyrwich, it still has not been established how many thousands of prisoners, out of 500,000 people who were incarcerated by the Communists between 1944 and 1956, perished because of torture and other forms of maltreatment. For example, over 800 witnesses have appeared to testify about torture in the Wronki prison, where, between 1945 and 1956, about 15,500 people were incarcerated, mostly political prisoners. Victims were routinely made to strip and wait in the prison yard, winter time included. Then, they were chased between two rows of wardens who beat them with truncheons and keys. The functionaries most responsible for the torture were the prison head Jan Boguwola, and his underlings: Adam Serwata, Wiktor Urbaniak, Józef Mikołajczak, Marian Kraus, Jerzy Białas, Marian Dusik, Tomasz Nowicki, and Jan Szymczak.

Torture was an integral part of Poland’s totalitarian reality. It was fully harmonized with the “legal” system and reflected in the official propaganda."

"No law explicitly permitted torturing anyone under Communism. However, between 1944 and 1956, the laws and regulations commonly applied against political offenders were utterly dehumanizing and, hence, implicitly encouraged their abuse, including torture. Two types of distinct legal systems functioned at the time: the Soviet and the Polish. The former applied not only in Poland’s eastern territories incorporated into the Soviet Union after the return of the Red Army in 1944, but also to the west of the so-called Curzon line, wherever the Soviet terror apparatus (and judiciary) happened to operate. While at the mercy of the NKVD, most commonly, the political offenders were charged under the infamous Article 58 of the Soviet penal code. According to Article 58, a Home Army soldier, who was ethnically Polish, born in pre-war Poland, and a life-long citizen of Poland could be sentenced as “traitor to the Soviet Motherland” in addition to being a “counter-revolutionary,” “Hitlerite collaborator,” and “fascist.”

"Marek Jan Chodakiewicz: The Dialectics of Pain: The Interrogation Methods of the Communist Secret Police in Poland, 1944-1955. Glaukopis, vol. 2/3 (2004-2005).

Part II

Torture was also the norm when the unfortunates were already serving their jail sentences. According to Mateusz Wyrwich, it still has not been established how many thousands of prisoners, out of 500,000 people who were incarcerated by the Communists between 1944 and 1956, perished because of torture and other forms of maltreatment.[32] For example, over 800 witnesses have appeared to testify about torture in the Wronki prison, where, between 1945 and 1956, about 15,500 people were incarcerated, mostly political prisoners. Victims were routinely made to strip and wait in the prison yard, winter time included. Then, they were chased between two rows of wardens who beat them with truncheons and keys. The functionaries most responsible for the torture were the prison head Jan Boguwola, and his underlings: Adam Serwata, Wiktor Urbaniak, Józef Mikołajczak, Marian Kraus, Jerzy Białas, Marian Dusik, Tomasz Nowicki, and Jan Szymczak.[33]

Torture was an integral part of Poland’s totalitarian reality. It was fully harmonized with the “legal” system and reflected in the official propaganda.[34]

The Legal Basis of Torture and the Communist Propaganda

No law explicitly permitted torturing anyone under Communism. However, between 1944 and 1956, the laws and regulations[35] commonly applied against political offenders were utterly dehumanizing and, hence, implicitly encouraged their abuse, including torture. Two types of distinct legal systems functioned at the time: the Soviet and the Polish. The former applied not only in Poland’s eastern territories incorporated into the Soviet Union after the return of the Red Army in 1944, but also to the west of the so-called Curzon line, wherever the Soviet terror apparatus (and judiciary) happened to operate. While at the mercy of the NKVD, most commonly, the political offenders were charged under the infamous Article 58 of the Soviet penal code. According to Article 58, a Home Army soldier, who was ethnically Polish, born in pre-war Poland, and a life-long citizen of Poland could be sentenced as “traitor to the Soviet Motherland” in addition to being a “counter-revolutionary,” “Hitlerite collaborator,” and “fascist.”[36]

In August 1945 the secret police arrested Captain Kazimierz Moczarski, who served in the Home Army during the Nazi occupation and afterward in one of its clandestine successors, the Delegation of the Armed Forces (Delegatura Sił Zbrojnych – DSZ). Moczarski was also a liberal and a leader of the center-leftist Democratic Party (Stronnictwo Demokratyczne – SD). As Moczarski recalled, UB Colonel Józef Goldberg, aka Jacek Różański, “told me that… I would go through a ‘hellish interrogation’ – which really happened later.” Różański threatened the victim that he would receive the death penalty. He also explained that “we can always prove that you were a Gestapo agent because we have the blank originals of the official stationery of the Gestapo, their rubber stamps, and the like. We also are holding such former Gestapo members who will very gladly sign a post-dated file prepared by us that you were a Gestapo agent.” Although Moczarski was tortured horribly, he refused to confess his “crimes” but was nonetheless sentenced to death.

Subsequently, Moczarski enumerated forty-nine different types of torture he was subjected to by eight officers of the UB during the interrogation which lasted from November 30, 1948, to September 22, 1952. The torture included beating with a nightstick, a piece of wire, and a metal rod on Moczarski’s throat, nose, fingers, and feet; tearing out his hair (from his genitals, beard, head, and chest); burning him with cigarettes and candles (on his lips, eyes, and fingers); crushing his toes with jackboots; kicking his entire body; stabbing him with needles; injuring his rectum with a screw and a stool leg; forcing the prisoner to do sit-ups until he fainted; forcing the prisoner to run up and down the stairs for long periods of time; locking him naked in solitary confinement; depriving him of sleep for up to 9 days at a stretch and preventing him from falling asleep by periodically slapping his face; forcing him to stand at attention for hours with his hands raised; and depriving him of food and drink for days. Physical torture was accompanied by psychological torment. It included depriving Moczarski of any contact with his family; informing him alternately that his wife “whom…[he] loved very much” was either dead or cheating on him; writing on the forehead of this famous anti-Nazi fighter the word “Gestapo”; and, finally, locking him in a cell for almost a year with Gestapo men, including SS-General Jürgen Stroop, the executioner of the Warsaw ghetto. All these and other methods were employed to force Moczarski to talk."

Chevan
08-14-2006, 03:46 PM
Lancer , tortures on political prisoners were always and everywhere. Independent of kind ideology and values of society .
See that it is done today in the one of the very popular prison.

http://usatruth.by.ru/pics/irak37.jpghttp://usatruth.by.ru/pics/0506190322_2.jpghttp://usatruth.by.ru/pics/0521220815_3.jpg
http://usatruth.by.ru/pics/torturepicture.jpg

What do you think , who taught the tortures of these glorious fellows - NKVD or GESTAPO.

Kovalski
08-14-2006, 03:54 PM
I hope that switching off the subject from blaming soviets for everything wrong during postwar period of history, to their polish helpers, will help our Russian friends understand some feelings which are rather common for all "ex-communist" countries.

Chevan, please do not treat every Lancer44's post as an attack, because it becomes ridiculous.
Do you understand what he wrote?
Don't you get the point?

Cuts
08-15-2006, 11:55 AM
...

http://usatruth.by.ru/pics/torturepicture.jpg

What do you think , who taught the tortures of these glorious fellows - NKVD or GESTAPO.

That's interesting Chevan, what can you tell me about this picture ?

Chevan
08-15-2006, 03:07 PM
Chevan, please do not treat every Lancer44's post as an attack, because it becomes ridiculous.
Do you understand what he wrote?
Don't you get the point?
I do not protect, Kovalski . ;)
Simply, me seemed by interesting information of Lancer about the tortures and I decided to compare the different methods of tortures in the different countries. To me it is interesting to compare the methods of tortures in THE USSR and contemporary the USA.

Dani
08-15-2006, 03:32 PM
Simply, me seemed by interesting information of Lancer about the tortures and I decided to compare the different methods of tortures in the different countries. To me it is interesting to compare the methods of tortures in THE USSR and contemporary the USA.



That's interesting Chevan, what can you tell me about this picture ?

:!: Off-topic: Chevan, take another look at picture quoted by Cuts and please answer to his question.

Chevan
08-15-2006, 04:03 PM
That's interesting Chevan, what can you tell me about this picture ?
British "Daily Mirror" published the photographs of the violence of British soldiers in Iraq above the prisoners.
http://usatruth.by.ru/pics/folter2.jpghttp://www.vybory.net/files/12464.jpghttp://usatruth.by.ru/c2.files/weblog200405154.jpg
According to the information of newspaper, figuring on the photo prisoner they thrashed during 8 hours. In this time to it broke jaw, knocked out teeth and several times were moistened to him(!!!)

Although British command doubted into the authenticity of photographs, the facts of the brutal treatment of the soldiers of the kingdom was fixed on many other amateurish photos and video recordings.

In the photographs are shown the undressed Iraqis, who simulate sexual contacts, soldiers, who thrash connected other, and also concluded forms of mockeries. For example, on one of the photographs is visible prisoner, attached to the machine- lift loader
http://www.yellowpress.ru/images/public/1026.jpg
I think, a feeling of humor in Britons it's all right with .

Chevan
08-15-2006, 04:09 PM
:!: Off-topic: Chevan, take another look at picture quoted by Cuts and please answer to his question.
What's happened , Dani.
Have you also the burning interest in this photograph?

Chevan
08-15-2006, 04:55 PM
In August 1945 the secret police arrested Captain Kazimierz Moczarski
........Although Moczarski was tortured horribly, he refused to confess his “crimes” ...
."
Obviously , it was amateurs in Polish UB.
When matter is in the hands of professionals, the resault couldn't be negative. It was absolutly proved by NKVD in 1937.

Without the offence . OK?

How do you think , Lanser, could Captain Kazimierz Moczarski refused to confess his “crimes” after several sessions of oral sex with Iraqi prisoners in the Abu -Greib?


...or after 20 minutes of close acquaintance with the german sheep dog


...or after the hour of a stay in this position


What will you say?


Pics Edited by Panzerknacker for off topic and nudity

Cuts
08-15-2006, 05:12 PM
British "Daily Mirror" published the photographs of the violence of British soldiers in Iraq above the prisoners.
http://usatruth.by.ru/pics/folter2.jpghttp://www.vybory.net/files/12464.jpghttp://usatruth.by.ru/c2.files/weblog200405154.jpg
According to the information of newspaper, figuring on the photo prisoner they thrashed during 8 hours. In this time to it broke jaw, knocked out teeth and several times were moistened to him(!!!)

Although British command doubted into the authenticity of photographs, the facts of the brutal treatment of the soldiers of the kingdom was fixed on many other amateurish photos and video recordings.

In the photographs are shown the undressed Iraqis, who simulate sexual contacts, soldiers, who thrash connected other, and also concluded forms of mockeries. For example, on one of the photographs is visible prisoner, attached to the machine- lift loader
http://www.yellowpress.ru/images/public/1026.jpg
I think, with a feeling of humor in Britons it's all right.

And there we have it.
The truth.
Pravda.
"It is in print so it must be true"

Have you noticed the name of the site you use for your 'facts' ?


You, my old son, are the epitome of a old fashioned dyed-in-the-wool party member.

If you had even the most remote idea about the British Army, it's structure, equipment and deployments you woldn't have been taken in by the ridiculous pictures published in a cheap tabloid by an immoral editor.

The photographs were a piss-poor attempt to discredit the lads in theatre at the time.
It doesn't take the brains of a rocket scientist to see through them and they were quickly proven to be very badly faked.
While the perpetrator was taken to court and convicted, the editor only lost his job - an inadequate punishment for placing the lives of men and women in Iraq at risk.

As to the lower picture, as soon as this was brought to light those involved were also brought before a court and dealt with.


Those are the facts, although I realise that they will be of little interest to you as they don't conform to your narrow and rose-tinted view of the world.
This is brought home by the childish dig in your last line.

Here's an idea - meet some real soldiers, learn about them and from them.

Dani
08-16-2006, 03:21 AM
Chevan, I tolerated your off-topic posts trying to understand what’s your point. Now I’m sick and tired of your twisted logic.

a) For the British soldiers I was interested in your opinion because I already knew the truth unveiled for you by Cuts.

b) For the American soldiers, your biggest mistake was that you compared the single acts of several idiots (and idiots were, are and will be in each army – Russian included – see ****heads who ordered gas poisoning in Moscow theatre hostage crisis in fall of 2002 with a result of 129 dead as collateral victims) with the organized acts of communist institutions. I’ll not comment on USSR (because communism was Russians’ choice – more or less) but on Central and Eastern European countries where the communism was IMPOSED – I hope that your translator will translate correctly this term – by the Soviets. It existed a SYSTEM of torture in the communist countries cited.


Your only excuse is that you don’t have English skills in order to understand properly what is about in others’ posts. Maybe you faced the same problem as our native English speakers: you add Lancer’s post into the translator, hit the button and read the result. And the result was a collection of words.

Try to learn more English in order to be informed (you could inform yourself not only from Russian media but from international one).

Edited: Now back on topic unless my mod mates will decide otherwise for this thread.

Man of Stoat
08-16-2006, 03:26 AM
Marvellous -- a few isolated incidents by individuals who have been severely punished is deemed to be significantly worse than systematic torture and murder by the Cheka-GB over many decades. Which planet do you come from? And to say that anything was ever "proved" by the NKVD is ridiculous -- they tortured people into confessing the most ridiculous things and into implicating everyone they knew as members of huge organisations that never existed. This is undisputable historical fact. Many people who suffered at their hands have attested to this, as have the archives.

You are either a very persistent and dedicated troll, or you actually believe this crap.

In either case, you, sir, are a knob. Be a good boy and sod off now, would you?

Man of Stoat
08-16-2006, 03:51 AM
Dani wrote: (because communism was Russians’ choice – more or less)

If you call a coup d'état by a very small minority party in the constituent assembly a choice...

Dani
08-16-2006, 04:11 AM
Dani wrote: (because communism was Russians’ choice – more or less)

If you call a coup d'état by a very small minority party in the constituent assembly a choice...

I know mate, but I prefered to talk to Chevan on his language.;)

Chevan
08-16-2006, 04:36 AM
And there we have it.
The truth.
Pravda.
"It is in print so it must be true"

Have you noticed the name of the site you use for your 'facts' ?


You, my old son, are the epitome of a old fashioned dyed-in-the-wool party member.

If you had even the most remote idea about the British Army, it's structure, equipment and deployments you woldn't have been taken in by the ridiculous pictures published in a cheap tabloid by an immoral editor.

The photographs were a piss-poor attempt to discredit the lads in theatre at the time.
It doesn't take the brains of a rocket scientist to see through them and they were quickly proven to be very badly faked.
While the perpetrator was taken to court and convicted, the editor only lost his job - an inadequate punishment for placing the lives of men and women in Iraq at risk.

As to the lower picture, as soon as this was brought to light those involved were also brought before a court and dealt with.


Those are the facts, although I realise that they will be of little interest to you as they don't conform to your narrow and rose-tinted view of the world.
This is brought home by the childish dig in your last line.

Here's an idea - meet some real soldiers, learn about them and from them.

I cann't, but agree with you.
You right, not any photograph in the newspaper can be the truth.
http://www.vybory.net/files/12464.jpg
This picture look like two young men get sexual pleasure.
But tell me please , my young father, what kind of pleasure get british guy in this photo
http://www.russianlondon.ru/img/forall/a/233/44.pnghttp://www.yellowpress.ru/images/public/1012.jpghttp://www.yellowpress.ru/images/public/1019.jpg
http://www.russianlondon.ru/newspaper/news/23344/


21 jan 2005.
..22 photographs were promulgated within the framework of the session of Military tribunal in Osnabryukke (Germany). Tribunal is judged three British soldiers. Two soldiers deny their fault, one recognized itself by guilty of "putting of solid damages" prisoner
...In parallel in Germany, where British military base is placed, is passed the court trial above another Briton, 19-year series Gary Bartramom from the same Royal rifle regiment, which also is charged with the obscene rotation with the Iraqis during May 2003. The details of this hearing thus far are not revealed..



If you had even the most remote idea about the British Army, it's structure, equipment and deployments you woldn't have been taken in by the ridiculous pictures published in a cheap tabloid by an immoral editor.

Well, i think that the Military tribunal "have the most remote idea about the British Army, it's structure, equipment and deployments".
Recently, I wathed video on "cheap" Euronews canal of the sadistic violence of Iraqi adolescents by British soldiers .
I think that your "wide-range view of the world" don't let you to see some obvious things.
Pravda ?

Chevan
08-16-2006, 04:42 AM
Chevan, I tolerated your off-topic posts trying to understand what’s your point. Now I’m sick and tired of your twisted logic.

a) For the British soldiers I was interested in your opinion because I already knew the truth unveiled for you by Cuts.

b) For the American soldiers, your biggest mistake was that you compared the single acts of several idiots (and idiots were, are and will be in each army – Russian included – see ****heads who ordered gas poisoning in Moscow theatre hostage crisis in fall of 2002 with a result of 129 dead as collateral victims) with the organized acts of communist institutions. I’ll not comment on USSR (because communism was Russians’ choice – more or less) but on Central and Eastern European countries where the communism was IMPOSED – I hope that your translator will translate correctly this term – by the Soviets. It existed a SYSTEM of torture in the communist countries cited.


Your only excuse is that you don’t have English skills in order to understand properly what is about in others’ posts. Maybe you faced the same problem as our native English speakers: you add Lancer’s post into the translator, hit the button and read the result. And the result was a collection of words.

Try to learn more English in order to be informed (you could inform yourself not only from Russian media but from international one).

Edited: Now back on topic unless my mod mates will decide otherwise for this thread.

OK , Dani .
It's enough about the violence in the prisons.
I see here it arose psychological problems because of the different home ideologies.

Dani
08-16-2006, 04:53 AM
OK , Dani .
It's enough about the violence in the prisons.
I see here it arose psychological problems because of the different home ideologies.

God forbid if you talk about Russian actual ideology as "home ideology - communist ideology" as you understand.

If this "home ideology" is only yours, OK from me. I only hope that you'll never occupy a job at a decisional level in the actual Russian society (or army).

No offence intended.

Chevan
08-16-2006, 04:58 AM
Dani wrote: (because communism was Russians’ choice – more or less)

If you call a coup d'état by a very small minority party in the constituent assembly a choice...

Yes MoS, communism was choice of small grour of peoples.
Gergian Stalin and jewish CK of ComParty- was it a russian choice?
And , talking on Dani's language, the colloboration with Hitler - was it real Romanian choice in ww2?

Chevan
08-16-2006, 05:03 AM
God forbid if you talk about Russian actual ideology as "home ideology - communist ideology" as you understand.

If this "home ideology" is only yours, OK from me. I only hope that you'll never occupy a job at a decisional level in the actual Russian society (or army).

No offence intended.
I never supported the communist ideology, Dani.
I mean "home ideology" as the system of national interests and values( not political idealogy) . Each country has the home ideology.
Thanks for "good" personal wishes. I wish the same for you.

Dani
08-16-2006, 05:09 AM
Yes MoS, communism was choice of small grour of peoples.
Gergian Stalin and jewish CK of ComParty- was it a russian choice?
Why Russian people accepted? In the Soviet-Russian civil war, on the Reds side were only Georgians and Jews? The huge majority were Russians. Isn't that a choice mate?


And , talking on Dani's language, the colloboration with Hitler - was it real Romanian choice in ww2?

It was the only choice to fight against the Soviet invader (see Bessarabia's case in 1940).

I strongly advise you to stop posting off-topic.

Dani
08-16-2006, 05:12 AM
I never supported the communist ideology, Dani.

My bold.
:D :D :D That's a good one.

Dani
08-16-2006, 05:27 AM
Warning: while editing your post you have to specify the reason as well.


Thanks for "good" personal wishes. I wish the same for you.

You remind me of an old joke from the 70s told me by a very good friend:

During Expo world exhibition in soviet pavillion one of the first soviet "computers" was set. It weighed two tons.

Soviet hostesses claimed that their mighty machine can answer any question about USSR.
One western visitor punched in question:
- How many pairs of shoes USSR produced in 1975?
Machine hummed, started to flash hundreds of lights but no answer on the screen.
Finally after 10 minutes patiently waiting visitors could read the answer:
- But you persecuted blacks!


You got the point? Or should I explain in other way?

Chevan
08-16-2006, 05:32 AM
Why Russian people accepted? In the Soviet-Russian civil war, on the Reds side were only Georgians and Jews? The huge majority were Russians. Isn't that a choice mate?

The fact. Bolsheviks used the foreing money and wearpon to take the pover in desorganised Russian empire in 1918. They neatly used the bad condithions of life for its interests. They promised land for peasants. They killed all of russian elite - isn't that a russian choice , mate?



It was the only choice to fight against the Soviet invader (see Bessarabia's case in 1940).

Yes , and Romanian genocide of jews and civils in Bessarabia and Odessa ( 1942-43) - was it fight against the Soviet invader?


I strongly advise you to stop posting off-topic.
Strange, you don't notice off-topic themes in thread of Dresden.
But in this thread you already "sick and tired of my twisted logic"
What's wrong ,mate. Political discrimination on this forum?

Dani
08-16-2006, 05:35 AM
Yes , and Romanian genocide of jews and civils in Bessarabia and Odessa ( 1942-43) - was it fight against the Soviet invader??


- But you persecuted blacks!

;)
Hope that you'll understand.

Cheers!

Chevan
08-16-2006, 05:55 AM
;)
Hope that you'll understand.

Cheers!
Think the mashine was right ;)

Lancer44
08-16-2006, 06:17 AM
Da, mashina horoshaya!

I remember old joke too:

When Red`Army entered Polish territory, many Poles were trying to sell soviet soldiers some goods in return for scarce food.
One bloke had an old broken watch. He knew that soviet soldiers check quality of the watches by listening how the mechanism is working.

He get an idea. Opened the watch, took out broken mechanism and put live bee inside.
It worked. He sold his buzzzying watch to the first soviet soldier he met for a loaf of bread.

Vania, which bought unusually sounding watch, every now and then was taking his prized posession from the pocket listening to nice working of the "mechanism".

After a few hours the bee died and so died the buzz.
Vania opened the watch with the pocket knife and looked inside. His collegue seeing it said:
- What? Machine no good?
Vania looked at him and said:
- Machine is OK, but operator died!

"Mashina horoshaya - mashinist ubit!

Cheers,

Lancer44

Cuts
08-16-2006, 11:26 AM
....
But tell me please , my young father, what kind of pleasure get british guy in this photo
http://www.russianlondon.ru/img/forall/a/233/44.pnghttp://www.yellowpress.ru/images/public/1012.jpghttp://www.yellowpress.ru/images/public/1019.jpg
http://www.russianlondon.ru/newspaper/news/23344/

Why on earth do you assume that I would have the foggiest idea about the kind of pleasure a bully gets ?
That cnut's getting a stripey tan as we speak so he's sorted.




Well, i think that the Military tribunal "have the most remote idea about the British Army, it's structure, equipment and deployments".
Ah, another Party favourite - selective quoting.
What you wrote may well be true, they may only have the most remote idea, though I'm inclined to believe that their knowledge of the Army goes a little deeper than that.Regardless, it has four-fifths of fokoll to do with the subject matter where I originally used that phrase, and is as such, redundant.



Recently, I wathed video on "cheap" Euronews canal of the sadistic violence of Iraqi adolescents by British soldiers .
If you mean where some thugs that had just attacked a patrol were given a beating, then that has been the subject of an investigation, the wheels have already turned. Just try to keep up will you ?



I think that your "wide-range view of the world" don't let you to see some obvious things.
Pravda ?
I'm not sure that you actually do Chevan, if your obvious indoctination is anything to go by, however given the vague possibility of this being the case, please enlighten me oh Celestial Navigator of All Things 'True' and Partylike.

Panzerknacker
08-16-2006, 09:07 PM
Announcement: , any other picture posted in the future WITH NO relation with this particular thread will be erased and his poster will receive a warning. This topic had beed desviated enough.