PDA

View Full Version : "Graf Zeppelin" found?



Kovalski
07-25-2006, 01:55 AM
Yesterday, the oil seekers found a giant wreck on the bottom of Baltic sea, 80 km from the polish coast. It is 265 m long, over 30 m wide and 35 m high. It is possible that the german aircraft carrier "Graf Zeppelin" was found at last.
It was lauched on 8th December 1938 in Kiel. Altough its construction was finished in 90 %, it was never prepared for combat. "Graf Zeppelin" spent most of its days in Kiel and later in naval bases on Baltic coast. Finally the ship was seized by Russians on 24th of April 1945in Szczecin (Stettin). From that moment its fate remained unclear. Due to some sources it was taken by Russians to Leningrad and sank in 1947.
We have to wait for the official confirmation that in fact it is the "Graf Zeppelin".

Outerheaven
07-25-2006, 05:31 AM
Any pictures to go along with this story will be great. I built a model of the ship so I would love to see some pics of the wreak.

Lancer44
07-25-2006, 05:40 AM
Finally the ship was seized by Russians on 24th of April 1945in Szczecin (Stettin). From that moment its fate remained unclear. Due to some sources it was taken by Russians to Leningrad and sank in 1947.
We have to wait for the official confirmation that in fact it is the "Graf Zeppelin".

Hi Kovalsky, (Where you had been when you had been not here? lol I'm glad you're back!)

If Graf Zeppelin was taken to Leningrad so how he come back to be sunk 40 nautical miles from Rozewie Peninsula in Polish economic zone???

I do not have any hard facts - as anyone, but I think that:

1. GZ never reached Leningrad
2. Was never used as target for soviet Navy. Silly idea. Veeeery large target...

I think Graf Zeppelin was booby trapped by Germans and sunk on its way to Leningrad.
Soviets would do everything to preserve even rudimentary body od GZ.
And apparently it was 90% complete.
The whole story was probably kept secret because it was complete failure of soviet sappers and NKVD. Anyway, anyone which had ever seen aircraft carrier can understand that skilled Germans could booby trap it in 10,000 possible ways.

Below is excerpt fro Virtual Poland http://www.turystyka.wp.pl/kat,9411,katn,Wiadomo%B6ci,wid,8411905,wiadomosc.h tml?rfbawp=1153822294.128

It says that ORP Arctovski, Polish Navy hydrographic ship is today going to the finding site to confirm that Petrobaltic really located Graf Zeppelin.


"Znaleźli wrak "Grafa Zeppelina" na dnie Bałtyku? PAP 2006-07-25 (08:43)
Pracownicy Petrobalticu znaleźli najprawdopodobniej wrak jedynego i jednocześnie nigdy nieukończonego niemieckiego lotniskowca "Graf Zeppelin", którego szukano przez niemal pół wieku - informuje "Dziennik Bałtycki".

Jednostka leży na głębokości prawie 80 metrów, około 40 mil morskich na północ od przylądka Rozewie, w polskiej strefie ekonomicznej Bałtyku. Jeśli nieoficjalne na razie informacje uda się potwierdzić, odnalezienie tego lotniskowca będzie wielką sensacją. "Graf Zeppelin" to bowiem ostatnia z wielkich jednostek zatopionych w Bałtyku, której do tej pory nie udawało się odnaleźć. Statek miał bowiem prawie 260 metrów długości i niemal 30 wysokości. Znaleziona przez pracowników Petrobalticu jednostka ma identyczne wymiary - podkreśla "DB".

Dziś z Gdyni wychodzi w morze ORP "Arctowski", okręt hydrograficzny Marynarki Wojennej. Jego załoga potwierdzić ma, czy odnaleziony 12 lipca przez pracowników Petrobalticu 40 mil morskich na północ od przylądka Rozewie wrak to jedyny niemiecki lotniskowiec "Graf Zeppelin"."

Dani
07-25-2006, 06:07 AM
Quoted from wiki:

It appears that the carrier was towed to Leningrad. There, after unloading, it was designated as "PO-101" (Floating Base Number 101). The Russians hoped that the carrier could be repaired in Leningrad's shipyards (those in Szczecin were destroyed). When this proved impractical, the ship was towed out to sea, back to the Swinemuende area. There, on 16th of August 1947, it was used as a practice target for Soviet ships and aircraft. Allegedly, the Soviets installed aerial bombs on the flight deck, in hangars and even inside the funnels (to simulate a load of combat munitions), and then dropped bombs from aircraft, fired shells, and shot torpedoes into it. This assault would both comply with the Tripartite mandate (albeit late) and provide the Soviets with experience in sinking an aircraft carrier. By this point, the Cold War had well begun, and the Soviets were well aware of the large numbers and central importance of aircraft carriers in the US Navy, which in the event of an actual war between the Soviet Union and America would be targets of high strategic importance. Hence, experience in sinking carriers by aircraft was much more valuable in 1947 than before 1945. After being hit by 24 bombs and projectiles, the ship did not sink and had to be finished off by torpedoes. The exact position of the wreck was unknown for decades. On 12 June 2006 a ship of Petrobaltic (oil company) found 265 m. long wreckege close to Łeba port which with very high probability is Graf Zeppelin

And a link provided by wiki for supporting the last phrase in my quotation:
http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/1,53600,3505105.html
(I don't know Polish; I figure that this link might be helpful fot Kovalski and Lancer).

Edited for fixing the quote tags.

Lancer44
07-27-2006, 06:38 AM
Quoted from wiki:


And a link provided by wiki for supporting the last phrase in my quotation:
http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/1,53600,3505105.html
(I don't know Polish; I figure that this link might be helpful fot Kovalski and Lancer).

Edited for fixing the quote tags.

Hi Dani,

I,m looking at this quote from wiki.... and I cannot believe my eyes.

Look at this sites:

http://www.voodoo.cz/battleships/pics1/sovietskaja_ukrajina_nikolayev.jpg

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/aj.cashmore/russia/battleships/sovietskysoyuz/sovietskayaukraina1.html

http://www.nwc.navy.mil/press/Review/2004/Spring/pdfs/art4-sp04.pdf

The last link works if you copy than paste in your Internet browser window.

You can see proof that soviets in mad Stalin's megalomania tried to build battleships. (Hey, let's starve the nation and build 4 battleships!)

I just cannot believe that having even the bare hulk of Graf Zeppelin they decided to sink it as a target...
I'm sorry - IT IS BEYOND ME...
Even sabotaged - in 90% completion stage, if watertight, it was hulk worth milllions. And they sunk it to learn how to sink aircrafts... This is bullshit.

That much scrap metal????

Do you know that our dear soviet friends dismantled the most famous gate in the world - Auschwitz "Arbeit Macht Frei" gate for scrap metal?
It was already on the truck, ex-Auschwitz prisoners saved it giving soviet soldiers a litre of vodka and thanks to them it is now where it is.

I just cannot believe that Graf Zeppelin was deliberately sunk by "koofaymen"!
It is impossible!

Cheers,

Lancer44

edited to fix spelling mistake

Dani
07-27-2006, 06:55 AM
I forgot to add the source of quotation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_aircraft_carrier_Graf_Zeppelin

Since my quotation, something was added:


On July 26 the specialists of the Polish Navy ORP Arctowski commenced penetration of the wreckage to confirm its identity. On July 27 Polish Navy confirmed identity of the wreckage - it is Graf Zepplin.

Lancer44
07-27-2006, 07:01 AM
I forgot to add the source of quotation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_aircraft_carrier_Graf_Zeppelin

Since my quotation, something was added:

I just hope they will confirm extent of damages....

Thanks Dani!

Lancer44

Dani
07-27-2006, 07:03 AM
Some plans:
http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/plans/KM_Graf_Zeppelin_1939/wasserschleier_anlage_100dpi.jpg

Edited: and...:
http://xs304.xs.to/xs304/06303/GZ_1.jpg

Dani
07-28-2006, 06:40 AM
Nazi aircraft carrier found in Baltic sea
By VANESSA GERA, Associated Press Writer Fri Jul 28, 2:39 AM ET

WARSAW, Poland - Poland's navy said a sunken shipwreck in the Baltic Sea is almost certainly Nazi Germany's only aircraft carrier — the Graf Zeppelin, which disappeared nearly 60 years ago.

The Polish oil company Petrobaltic discovered the shipwreck July 12 on the sea floor about 40 miles north of the port city of Gdansk. Suspecting it could be the wreckage of the Graf Zeppelin, the Polish Navy sent a survey vessel to inspect it earlier this week, Navy spokesman Lt. Cmdr. Bartosz Zajda said Thursday.

"We are 99 percent sure — even 99.9 percent — that these details point unambiguously to the Graf Zeppelin," said Dariusz Beczek, the commander of the survey vessel.

The Graf Zeppelin was Germany's only aircraft carrier during World War II. It was launched in 1938, but never saw action due to Hitler's disenchantment with his navy and political squabbles in the Nazi high command. After Germany's defeat in 1945, the Soviet Union took control of the ship.

On Aug. 16, 1947, Soviets used the ship for target practice, filling the hold with munitions before practicing dive bombing techniques on it. The ship eventually sank, but its exact position has been unknown ever since.
Naval experts used a remote-controlled underwater robot and sonar photographic and video equipment to gather digital images of the 850-foot-long ship this week, Zajda said.

Zajda said a number of characteristics of the wrecked ship exactly matched those of the Graf Zeppelin, including the ship's measurements and a device that lifted aircraft onto the launch deck from a lower deck.
The experts were still waiting to find the name "Graf Zeppelin" on one side of the ship before declaring with absolute certainty that it was the German carrier, Zajda said.

Nick Hewitt, a historian at the Imperial War Museum in London called the Graf Zeppelin "a fascinating what-if."
"Nobody really knows that much about her," Hewitt said by telephone. "You get a look at what she was like, whether she had an armored deck and all that sort of stuff, and you can figure out what she might have achieved."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060728/ap_on_re_eu/poland_nazi_shipwreck_1

Nickdfresh
07-28-2006, 07:44 AM
http://newsimages.adelphia.net/ap_photos//1551e532-0829-4c10-9c47-c904d77ac932.jpeg
Germany's first aircraft carrier, the Graf Zeppelin is attended by tugs shortly after launching at Kiel, Germany Dec. 8, 1938. Poland's navy said a sunken shipwreck in the Baltic Sea is almost certainly Nazi Germany's only aircraft carrier _ the Graf Zeppelin, which disappeared nearly 60 years ago. The Polish oil company Petrobaltic discovered the shipwreck July 12, 2006 on the sea floor about 40 miles north of the port city of Gdansk. (AP Photo)

http://www.adelphia.net/news/read.php?id=12975312&ps=1012&cat=&cps=0&show=big&lang=en

Note: This link will disappear in a few days.

Dani
07-28-2006, 08:00 AM
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/1633/060727grafzeppvmed1prp420x400de4.jpg
Polish Navy Commander Dariusz Beczek holds up an images showing with near certainty that a sunken ship in the Baltic Sea is the Graf Zeppelin, Nazi Germany's only aircraft carrier, on Thursday July 27, 2006 in Gdansk, Poland. The discovery is expected to shed more light on the fate of the ship, which was last seen 59 years ago. The top image shows a Nazi-era drawing of the ship, the second a sonar picture made this week by the Polish navy, and the last, a photograph made in the 1930s during the building of the ship. The size and other characterists of the old photographs and new sonar pictures match up exactly. (AP Photo/Wojtek Jakubowski )
3:30 p.m. ET, 7/27/06

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/2646/jsk0500727151414rp600x350gg6.jpg
This hand-out picture 27 July 2006 from the Polish Navy shows a sonar graph representation of Germany's only aircraft carrier during World War II the Graf Zeppelin discovered in the Baltic sea off the Polish coast 12 July by a Polish company that specialises in searching for oil reserves. The wreck, is some 55 kilometres (34 miles) north of the Polish port of Wladyslawowo, and lies at a depth of 80 metres (260 feet). It was damaged by artillery fire and fell into the hands of the Soviet army in April 1945.
10:14 a.m. ET, 7/27/06

Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14062541/

Dani
07-28-2006, 08:07 AM
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/4364/poland3wlady203x152cy8.gif

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5223514.stm

PLT.SGT.BAKER
07-29-2006, 09:04 PM
I do believe that the Graf Zeppelin was used as practice targest for the Soviets Navy because the Soviets wanted to practice in sinking American Aircraft Carriers, So the Graf Zeppelin was a practice "american" aircraft carrier.

Dani
07-30-2006, 02:42 PM
http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/1295/sonar1ga9.jpg

http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/6505/sonar2cf4.jpg
A picture from an underwater camera taken at a depth of 80 meters (260 feet) -- too far down for conventional scuba divers. Only specialists can reach the ship with a particular blend of oxygen, nitrogen and helium.

http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/1197/sonar3mq2.jpg
A Polish Navy officer is examining a sonar picture of the shipwreck, which lies some 55 kilometres (34 miles) north of the Polish port of Wladyslawowo.

Source: http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,429119,00.html

Dani
08-13-2006, 03:35 PM
Aerial photos of Graf Zeppelin in 1947:

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/5326/zeppelin1hw6.jpg

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9986/zeppelin2tf0.jpg

Source: http://www.sedina.pl/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=672

On the other hand....


Hitler’s last treasure belongs to Russia
04.08.2006

A sunken aircraft-carrier Graf Zeppelin is Russia ’s property, the Defense Ministry of Germany states. Berlin will not claim any rights in connection with the decommissioned WWII vessel.

The sunken Nazi Germany’s aircraft-carrier Graf Zeppelin was found in the Baltic Sea near the Polish shores. Germany’s news agency DDP reports with reference to the military that Germany will not claim its right for the vessel’s hull.

According to the above arguments, the German warship never went into battle before the war broke out and later belonged to the Soviet Union as a war trophy. Russia as a legal successor to the Soviet Union can enjoy its absolute right in ownership of the sunken vessel.

Sources of the news agency add that legally Germany has no right to claim restitution of the aircraft-carrier that went down right after the war ended even though there was a German crew on board at the moment of sinking. If Germany still reveals any interest in the sunken vessel, it may have “consultations with Russia ”, sources conclude.

In any case, it is the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Finance not the Defense Ministry to look into the issue.

The Defense Ministry of Germany has neither confirmed nor denied the report yet. Spiegel Online reports that for the time being Germany is studying the legal aspect of the problem.

July 12, 2006 a research crew Santa Barbara of the Petrobaltic oil company came across the hull of a sunken aircraft-carrier Graf Zeppelin at a depth of 86 meters near the Polish shores in the baltic Sea. The vessel was built at a shipyard in Kiel in 1938 but was never completed. It was supposed that the aircraft-carrier could carry up to 43 airplanes, a crew of 1,720 seamen and 342 men to operate the aircrafts.

For about sixty years nothing was heard about Hitler’s first and last aircraft-carrier that had been lost in the Baltic Sea after WWII. According to an official version, the colossus of 260 meters was torpedoed by Soviet seamen to find out how American aircraft-carriers would act in a similar situation. But the vessel did not sink after numerous bombs exploded on its board, and it was decided to liquidate it with two torpedoes.
Pravda.ru
Translated by Maria Kapitanova
http://english.pravda.ru/russia/history/04-08-2006/83756-Graf_Zeppelin-0

No comment with exception of "Who gives a sh** that the wreck lies in the territorial water of Poland? We sunk it, she belongs to us, isn't it?"

Kovalski
08-14-2006, 03:04 AM
I've just read that the position of the wreck and hole Graf Zeppelin's case was well described in polish military press almost 9 years ago.
I'm a bit confused why is everybody making such a fuss about that.

Dani
08-14-2006, 03:32 AM
Simply mate! Because the discovery of the wreck is a news!

Check this: 9 years ago the subject was described in Polish military press. Who learnt that with exception of a several hundreds Poles?

Now the subject was described in major and minor newspapers and networks around the globe. Millions learn about that. Even you found that last month.:D

Kovalski
08-14-2006, 04:06 AM
Until I wrote that post, I wasn't aware that Germans had built the aircraft carrier ;)

Lancer44
08-14-2006, 08:51 AM
It is possible that so called "cucumber season", prompted someone to dig this "sensation" from his own archive.
This time of the year skeleton staff in many papers and magazines is struggling how to feel up their pages. Advertising is dead, politicians on vacations, actors, celebrities on vacations... Everyone is out...
om the sea
Someone get an idea...

Being his editor I would give him a pay rise, because legal querry between Germany, Russia and Poland may be quite interesting... And about what? Huge piece of junk which never will be raised from the sea, because cost of raising is two times bigger than scrap metal value...

Cheers,

Lancer44

FW-190 Pilot
09-21-2006, 12:25 AM
i just wonder why didnt the soviet use the carrier against american instead