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Lancer44
07-04-2006, 07:13 AM
Note as posted below this topic has been split from the Concentration Camp one

Cheers

F-F


Not just relating to Jews either. The Wehrmacht rather than the SS was responsible for the Russian PoWs, and hence for the deliberate plan to starve millions of them to death for logistical reasons.
The German logistics system was not strong enough to support their army in combat and feed Soviet prisoners at the same time. They took the decision to starve the Soviet prisoners to death on a massive scale in cold blood before the war. In terms of numbers murdered, only the Jews of Europe suffered more than Soviet PoWs.

Edit: formatting

Hi pdf27,

I'm not an expert in this topic, but I have a few questions, not neccessarily to you, topic is so wide... Anyone welcomed to participate.

1. Can anyone provide death rate for German POW's taken by soviets year by year from 1942 to 1945? (I don't think year 1941 yeilded any POW's...

2. Can anyone provide total death rate for German POW's taken by soviets, as percentage of captured to repatriated up to 1956?

3. Can anyone provide data about consecutive Geneva and Haque Conventions signed by soviets between 1917 and June 22-nd 1941?

4. Can anyone provide any information about contacts between soviet and German belligerents through International Red Cross?

5. How many parcels addressed personally to German POWs were delivered through International Red Cross to soviet Russia between April 1942 to May 1945?

6. If all, (or millions), of soviet POW's were starved to death, how come that military pro-nazi units, like RONA or ROA had that many volunteers? How many soviet POW's volunteered to HiVi's battalions?
What nationalities were members of Dirlewanger's or Kaminsky's Brigades, (which toppled Warsaw Uprising in blood), an Eskimo's? or maybe American Indians?

7. How many ex-soviet soldiers, members of anti-soviet and pro-nazi armed forces, which capitulated to Allies, were forcibly deported to soviet Russia in 1945 and 1946?

7. How many German soldiers died in Allied captivity when their status was changed from POWs to DEF, (Disarmed Enemy Forces)?

8. Why logistic services of US Army had to dispose of rotten food in ports like Cherbourg and Antwerp, when German POW's and German civilians were
starving?

Hmm, after answering these questions we can come back to main topic of "German knowledge about events in extermination camps and Einsatz Kommandos activity".

I'm Polish by birth and I'm far from defending Germans, but I love historical truth; this is the main reason why I'm discussing things on this Forum.
Talking about Germans knowledge, we cannot forget about German soldiers shot by Gestapo for refusing unlawful orders and about German soldiers providing information to Polish, Czech, French, Norvegian or any other Resistance movements.

Lancer44

George Eller
07-04-2006, 11:30 AM
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Hi Lancer,

I don't have any answers for your questions, but thought the following might be interesting to you.

George Duncan's Massacres and Atrocities of World War II:
Eastern Europe / Russia
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres_east.html
Germany and Italy
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres_axis.html
Western Europe
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres.html

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Lancer44
07-04-2006, 11:44 AM
Hi George,

Thanks for posting Duncan's links.
A lot of people should read them from page one to the last page...
And again, and again, and again.

Unfortunately Duncan did not leave us rock hard sources.

Cheers,

Lancer44

I knew Duncan's site - not everything is properly documented and sources cited... I would like to know more about treatment of Japs by Dutch in East Indies...
I have solid evidence about Australians starving Japs in Rabaul in 1945-46 +
enciting domestic riots to get Japs killed by natives, but not much about EI.

L44

George Eller
07-04-2006, 12:01 PM
Hi George,

Thanks for posting Duncan's links.
A lot of people should read them from page one to the last page...
And again, and again, and again.

Unfortunately Duncan did not leave us rock hard sources.

Cheers,

Lancer44

I knew Duncan's site - not everything is properly documented and sources cited... I would like to know more about treatment of Japs by Dutch in East Indies...
I have solid evidence about Australians starving Japs in Rabaul in 1945-46 +
enciting domestic riots to get Japs killed by natives, but not much about EI.

L44

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Hi Lancer,

I have not heard much about revenge on Japanese in post-war Dutch East Indies. Although my mother has mentioned seeing Japanese soldiers being forced to wash dishes and do other menial work at camps after the war. Her father (my grandfather) was an onderluitenant in the Dutch colonial army (KNIL) in the Netherlands East Indies. He died in a POW camp on Java 24 January 1945. My mother and her family spent time in a concentration camp on Java from 1943-1945. She still has bitter feelings toward the Japanese to this day.

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Stahler
07-04-2006, 02:22 PM
Hi Folks,

hi lancer most off your questions i was not able to answer. I knew that stalin murdered million of his people and that from the surviving roundabout 50% russianan pows some 80% got straight to the russian gulags. The death rate from hunger in ww1 at the russain pow camps in germany where at 5%. I visit a exhibiton of german pows in russia. It was far better treatment than the russian soldier received. The death rate was at least under 10%

The reasons for "russians" to got to the Wehrmacht.

Maybe some would simply survive. Some had some open bills hate for the russians. Other win a free ukarine, this fighting did not stop at 1945. Some for cruelty. In the war the germans know that the russains know how did they treat their pow.
Massmorder was known:Report from the 25.01.1942 Countycomissar Erren in Slonim: "A limited time the wehrmacht cleard the open land with a big hand, but only in villages und 1000 people."

Different people different view. During a discussion about the war crimes two soldieres rose up: One said yes i have seen such thing the other one said i have not seen such things. Can be both true?
I remember that one critic asked his uncel about what he had seen in the war: His uncle was a cook. And said at first now, but than he remebered that he to bar a road a had seen lot of trucks with people on it that where not soldiers.
Not only a single soldier was put to court for not abeying orders to shoot people, even from the police units. At barbi yar there where asked who will should there we enough volounteers.
A last one small trip to the pacifik. An dutch friend told me that whenever he go to indonesia he said that he is a german. If he would say that he is dutch he will receive bad treatmend. because the people think in this way:" The dutch supressed us the german fight against our supressors."

Stahler

George Eller
07-04-2006, 04:07 PM
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Massacres of POWs, Dutch East Indies, 1941-1942
http://www.geocities.com/dutcheastindies/massacres.html

George Duncan's Massacres and Atrocities of World War II
Pacific (including Dutch East Indies)
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres_pacific.html#Pacific

A few examples from above:

THE PIG BASKET ATROCITY

When the Allies capitulated to the Japanese in East Java in 1942, around two hundred Allied soldiers took to the hills around Malang and formed themselves into groups of resistance fighters. Eventually they were rounded up by the Kempetai. The captured soldiers were squeezed into three foot long bamboo pig baskets and transported in five open lorries, under a broiling 38 degree sun, to a rail siding and then transferred in open railway goods wagons to the coast. (Eye witness to this transfer was a 15 year old girl, Elizabeth Van Kempen, who witnessed this while standing together with her father, on a nearby ridge of the mountain Semeru. They could plainly hear the prisoners screaming for help and water. (Miss Kempen's father was later killed by the Kempetai at Malang on March 25, 1945, for hiding weapons and ammunition. Elizabeth Kempen now lives, as of 2004, in Tilburg, Holland)

Half dead from thirst and cramp, the captives were carried on board waiting boats which then sailed out to the shark infested waters off the coast of Surabaya. There, the unfortunate prisoners, still enclosed in their bamboo cages, were thrown overboard to the waiting man-eaters. The commander in chief of Japanese forces in Java, General Imamura, was later acquitted of this atrocity in a Netherlands court for lack of evidence. A subsequent Australian Military Court found General Imamura responsible and handed down a sentence of ten years imprisonment.
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THE CHERIBON ATROCITY (July, 1945)

In the port of Cheribon in northern Java, a Japanese submarine took on board ninety civilian prisoners. All were European and included women and children. As dusk fell on that day in late July, the submarine set sail. It travelled on the surface, the ninety prisoners standing outside on deck. From the top of the conning tower two machine guns, aimed fore and aft, could be plainly seen. Fearing the worst, many of the women started crying but were helpless to do anything. Clinging to each other for stability in the gently rolling sea, the ninety captives waited and prayed. After about an hour the submarine suddenly slowed and dived without warning. The machine guns were never used. Swept off the deck as the ship slid beneath the sea the prisoners faced their worst nightmare. Schools of sharks attacked the screaming mass of humanity as men women and children were torn to pieces in a feeding frenzy. There was only one survivor who, minus an arm and right foot to the sharks, stayed alive long enough to be picked up by three Javanese fishermen. After relating his story he lost consciousness through loss of blood and died from his injuries a short time later. His body was then committed back to the sea, the three fishermen fully aware of their fate should they return to port with the body of an European who was supposed to disappear. After the war this atrocity was reported to the authorities but as all naval files and records of ship movements had been destroyed by the Japanese, the identity of the submarine and its crew was never established.
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LOA KULU MASSACRE (July 30, 1945)

After surrendering to overwhelming numbers of Japanese troops, around one hundred members of the Netherlands East Indies Army were disarmed and for a while permitted restricted freedom in the town of Samarinda, in Borneo, where most of the soldiers lived with their families. Early on the morning of July 30, all prisoners, including their families, were rounded up and taken before a Japanese officer who summarily sentenced them all to death. No reason was given as they were bundled into lorries and taken to Loa Kulu just outside the town. There they had their hands tied behind their backs and as the men and children watched, the women were systematically cut to pieces with swords and bayonets until they all died. The screaming children were then seized and hurled alive down a 600 foot deep mine shaft. The men captives, forced to kneel and witness the butchery of their wives and children, and suffering the most indescribable mental torture, were then lined up for execution by beheading. When the grisly ritual was over, the bloodied corpses and severed heads of the 144 men were then thrown down the mine shaft on top of their murdered wives and children. The horror of Loa Kulu was discovered by Australian troops who had earlier started a search for the missing Dutch soldiers.

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RETALIATION IN INDONESIA (1945/46)

After the Pacific war ended, Holland made a major effort to regain her lost territories, in the Netherland East Indies (Indonesia). When the Dutch Colonial Army took over the area they found around 2,000 Japanese soldiers still on the island. They had stayed behind to help Indonesia gain her independence in case Japan lost the war. In the first nine days of the reoccupation the Dutch soldiers brutally murdered 236 Japanese soldiers in retaliation for the treatment they (the Dutch) had received in Japanese prisoner-of-war camps. Hundreds who were not killed were interned in slave labour camps in Timor and Java where they tried to recreate the same atmosphere as in the Japanese POW camps. There the Japanese soldiers were tortured and beaten to death when they could no longer work. In a short time the death toll had risen to over 1,000. Those prisoners who survived the retaliation were set free to find their own way back to Japan. Holland and Japan have since exchanged apologies for each other's cruel behavior towards the prisoners in their care. (In the Netherlands East Indies, now Indonesia, 26,233 Dutch nationals perished between 1942 and 1945 during the Japanese occupation).

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The combined figure of British and American prisoners of war who died while in Japanese captivity, totaled 24,969. Over 22,000 Australians were prisoners of the Japanese. Of these, 8,296 died while in captivity. Of the Australians who ended up in German POW camps, 265 died in captivity.

By the year 2002, Germany will have paid out 102 billion Deutschmarks in restitution and compensation to the victims of the Nazi regime. Germany has largely faced up to its legal and moral obligations. Not so Japan. Denying its wholesale massacres and thieving by its moronic hordes, the Japanese Government officials hide behind their bland smiles and polite bows and think 'Japan Number One, other countries Number Ten'. No other nation in the world imposes such a distorted view of history on its schoolchildren. For over fifty years, Japan has denied its abuses of Human Rights and refuses to pay any compensation to its victims, especially the survivors of its 250,000 sex slave program. (At this moment a few survivors are fighting for compensation in the Japanese courts) Until Japan faces up to its responsibilities, civilized nations everywhere must regard it with suspicion at best and contempt at worst. At the Nuremberg War Crimes trial, Hans Frank said "A thousand years will pass and still this guilt of Germany will not have been erased". In Japan's case however, it may take a little longer.

However, a citizens group in the Japanese city of Kyoto, have erected a 'Monument of Apology and Friendship' in the city square of Calbayog, on the island of Samar in the Philippines. The city was occupied by the 16th Division of the Imperial Japanese Army during the war. The monument bears the inscription 'The citizens of Kyoto apologize for the invasion by the Army of the Emperor and pledge their friendship'. It is believed that this is the first time the Japanese have apologized for their actions during World War II.

The first written apology (to South Korea) was presented by the Japanese Prime Minister, Keizo Obuchi, on October 9, 1998, to South Korean President Kim Dae-jung ... 53 years after the war!

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Firefly
07-04-2006, 04:12 PM
Hi guys, I created a new thread for the POW discussions as it is definately off the topic of Concentration Camps.

Cheers.............

Ingsoc
07-04-2006, 06:49 PM
I feel we need to divide the treatment of POW in the war in Europe to two categories: west and east.

In the west usually both sides recongise the captured enemy soldiers as POW althought the Germans send Jews and Blacks to concentration camps.

In the east it's was another deal completly, from the start it was suppose to be an ideological war against what was called by the German "Judeo-Bolshevism" in the notorious commisar order the German soldiers were encoureged not to view enemies soldiers as legitimate soldiers that need to giving a treatment according to the rules of war, it's also spoke of the "harsh punishment that Judeo-Bolshevism must suffer", this order virtualy give premision to excecute on sight any enemy soldier, in the begining of the campain in Russia millions of red army soldiers were captured, some switch sides and join the various pro-German units that were formed in the USSR, the rest were denied of a POW status and there were used as slaves in the Todt Organisation, the Soviets also give harsh treatment (althought not as the German), for example they saw all the Germans captured in Stalingrad as war criminals, the German POW that were "converted" to Communisn or join "The Free Officers" (a German POW anti-Nazi organisation) were treated better and some of them were even given a job after the war in the DDR, those who refuse to join the banner of Communisim (usually famous or high ranking officers for example Erich Hartmann) were left to rotten in Soviet jail after the end of the war, the last Germans POW return to Germany in 1955.

Lancer44
07-16-2006, 07:42 AM
This thread really started with opinions about treatment of soviet POWs by Germans after 22 of June 1941. Stahler and pdf27 stated that soviet POWs were starved and/or shot by Wehrmacht and/or SS right after outbreak of hostilities between Germany and Soviet Union.

They are right. What they said are historical facts.
I tried to look not at facts but at figures. I will provide sources later, today just few figures to revive discussion:

- In mid 1942 Wehrmacht recruited 700,000 soviet POW's which as auxilliary armed units were fighting with partisans and played a major role in railways security.

- all together in spring 1945 number of ex soviet POWs in German service
is estimated at more than 1 million.

- in 1944 and 1945 in every Wehrmacht infantry company were at least 12 Hiwis - mostly exs soviet POW's.

- Not counting RONA, ROA or Kaminski's Brigade on the Eastern front Germans created 72 battalions from ex-soviet POWs; on western fron they had 43 battalions mainly at French coast.

- British, American and Polish POWs which declared loyalty to Hitler can be counted as a couple of hundred - mostly psychiatric cases.

Let's talk

Lancer44

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Stahler
07-16-2006, 08:33 AM
Hi Lancer,

if you took a look at the conditions at the pow camps itwill be one reason.
When you look what Stalin had done to their own people it will be one reason.
When you look at the many different nationalities in the soviet army it my be an other reason. Look at the other thread.. the fighting did not stop 1945.

From the western Pow i know only from the british 30 who where put into the "Britisches Freikorps" They where mostly used in rubble clearing in Berlin. Two squads where attached to the Nordland SS Division and where excluded probably than by Steiner himself.

Greetings Stahler

Chevan
07-16-2006, 09:53 AM
- British, American and Polish POWs which declared loyalty to Hitler can be counted as a couple of hundred - mostly psychiatric cases.

Let's talk

Lancer44

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Relation to the Soviet prisoners was determined from the ideological point. If British, American and Polish POWs had the real chance to survive in Germany, but the soviet POW's who refused to collaborate with the Germans they perished practically all ( 85% about 3 millions).
In addition to this the Germans competently used mutual hatred of some nationalities OF THE USSR for each other. For example Baltic politsai killed Ukrainian, Belorussian and Polish inhabitants. Western Ukrainians hated Russians and Poles; therefore they were used for the suppression of civils.
In the Soviet territory were also organized sadly known national Waffen SS. It's also special punitive detachments (as the band of the criminals of Kaminskiy) .
In western Europe were also organized many special Nazi voluntary of formations (as, for instance, the brigade of the French SS "Sharleman" which it differed in Berlin)

and Lancer i hope you don't forget about polish policai who help germans to murder the polish jews.

Firefly
07-17-2006, 11:46 AM
Done anyone have any views on the way the Soviets treated their repatriated Prisoners, the ones that didnt fight for Germany but were liberated by Soviet troops. It must have been hard to think you have been rescuded after years of mal treatment, just to suffers more years of mal treatment at the hands of your own country.

Sturmfuhrer
07-17-2006, 03:04 PM
Сreation at the end of 1941 on the order of №0521 of filtrational camps for checking freed from the captivity was the vital need due to wide work of german special services in recruiting agents from soviet POWs. I suppose noone will argue that. Now about sufferings of "more years of mal treatment at the hands of your own country".
Checking in these special camps passed not only the former prisoners of war. The contingent entered there was divided into three stock-taking groups:
1 - prisoners of war and okruzhentsy;
2- series policemen, rural wardens and other citizens, suspected of the treacherous activity;
3-citizens of the call-up age, that lived in the territory, occupied of protivnikom

May be all of them went to Kolyma (or as it called in west Sybiria, in spite that it is geografical mistake)?

Let us return to language of digits:

on 1 March, 1944, through the organs OF THE NKVD passed checking 312 594 former soldiers of the Red Army, which visited in the captivity or circeled. Their further fate was formed as follows:

send into the district Military Commissariats for further direction into Red Army 223 272 (71,4%)
transmitted to the work into defense industry 5716 (1,8%)
for staffing of the escort troops OF NKVD 4337 (1,4%)
send to hospitals 1529 (0,5%)
died 1799 (0,6%)
to the formation of penalty battalions (i.e. into shtrafbaty) 8255 (2,6%) arrested by 11283 (3,6%)
Thus, 75,1% of former prisoners they satisfactorily passed checking. However, they underwent the repressions (they were arrested or sent for shtrafbaty) only 6,2%.

(According to the information, given by the members of "Memorial" A.Kokurinym and N.Petrovym in the journal "Free thought".)

satisfactorily passed checking by 234 by 863 (91,7%)
send to shtrafbaty 8 255 (3,2%)
were arrested by 11 283 (4,4%) they died 1799 (0,7%)

(Mezhen'ko A. V. "POWs were made operational..."// Military history periodical, 1997.)

Some info about treatment in filtration camps. Death rate was from 0 % to 1.89 %. (Basic archive of Russian Federation, Ф.Р.-9408с. Оп.1с. Д.13. Л.1-18.) I suppose it not much for the POWs freed from fashists.

Sturmfuhrer
07-17-2006, 03:29 PM
The mass release of Soviet prisoners of war and citizens, driven away to the forced works into Germany and other countries, began after World War II. According to the directive of the rate of №11086 of 11 May, 1945, for the reception of the repatriated Soviet citizens, freed by troops of allies, the people's commissariat of defense organized 100 camps. Furthermore acted 46 assembly stations for the reception of Soviet citizens, freed by the Red Army

As an example let us examine the work Of the filtrational camp (ПФЛ №048), according to the report about presence and motion of special contingent for the period 1 January for 1 August, 1945, the results of checking the located in the camp former prisoners of war they proved to be next:

Consisted on 1 January, 1945.
Stayed: 3848
Arrived with 1.01.1945 on 1.08.1945 1324
it diminished:
in the national economy - 3314
into the special work of THE NKVD - 24
into the personnel OF THE NKVD - 177
into the reserve of Red Army - 28
into the guards of filtrational camps - 57
into the guards of GULAG - 25
into district Military Commissariats- 19
to the place of residence- 4
arrested by "SMERSH" ("Smert' shpionam" or "Death for spies") and 76
ran - 1
died - 4
into Podolskiy PFL of №174 - 110
altogether it diminished 3839
Stayed on 1 August, 1945. -1333

(Basic archive of Russian Federation, Ф.Р.-9408с. Оп.1с. Д.18. Л.2-2об)

Chevan
07-17-2006, 03:54 PM
Hi from Krasnodar , Sturmfuhrer.
There is interesting information in your post

Firefly
07-17-2006, 04:48 PM
That is interesting and is pretty much at odds with everything I have ever read about the Soviet Union. Just goes to show that those Soviets didnt send thousands to the Gulags after all eh.

Lancer44
07-17-2006, 09:14 PM
The mass release of Soviet prisoners of war and citizens, driven away to the forced works into Germany and other countries, began after World War II. According to the directive of the rate of №11086 of 11 May, 1945, for the reception of the repatriated Soviet citizens, freed by troops of allies, the people's commissariat of defense organized 100 camps. Furthermore acted 46 assembly stations for the reception of Soviet citizens, freed by the Red Army

As an example let us examine the work Of the filtrational camp (ПФЛ №048), according to the report about presence and motion of special contingent for the period 1 January for 1 August, 1945, the results of checking the located in the camp former prisoners of war they proved to be next:

Consisted on 1 January, 1945.
Stayed: 3848
Arrived with 1.01.1945 on 1.08.1945 1324
it diminished:
in the national economy - 3314
into the special work of THE NKVD - 24
into the personnel OF THE NKVD - 177
into the reserve of Red Army - 28
into the guards of filtrational camps - 57
into the guards of GULAG - 25
into district Military Commissariats- 19
to the place of residence- 4
arrested by "SMERSH" ("Smert' shpionam" or "Death for spies") and 76
ran - 1
died - 4
into Podolskiy PFL of №174 - 110
altogether it diminished 3839
Stayed on 1 August, 1945. -1333

(Basic archive of Russian Federation, Ф.Р.-9408с. Оп.1с. Д.18. Л.2-2об)

Hi Sturmfuhrer,

Very interesting data. Thanks a lot!

I think figures are perfectly right - the devil is in their interpretation.

As you see, "to the place of residence" only 4 persons departed.
3314 persons "diminished" into "national economy".
They were simply cleared of any war crimes and send to either "specposielieniya" or as slave labour to various places but mostly unpleasant ones, like Magadan or Kolyma.

So translating it for our American friends: it would be the same if American POW from, say Detroit, after coming to USA would be told: "you are cleared and debriefed, but before you can go home to Detroit, you must go to Alaska for 10 years, because we need you in a gold mine."

Do you agree?

Cheers,

Lancer44

Sturmfuhrer
07-18-2006, 07:36 AM
Hi from Krasnodar , Sturmfuhrer.
There is interesting information in your post

Hi from city-hero Leningrad, Chevan!

Sturmfuhrer
07-18-2006, 09:08 AM
Hi Sturmfuhrer,

Very interesting data. Thanks a lot!

I think figures are perfectly right - the devil is in their interpretation.

As you see, "to the place of residence" only 4 persons departed.
3314 persons "diminished" into "national economy".
They were simply cleared of any war crimes and send to either "specposielieniya" or as slave labour to various places but mostly unpleasant ones, like Magadan or Kolyma.

So translating it for our American friends: it would be the same if American POW from, say Detroit, after coming to USA would be told: "you are cleared and debriefed, but before you can go home to Detroit, you must go to Alaska for 10 years, because we need you in a gold mine."

Do you agree?

Cheers,

Lancer44

Hi,Lancer44!


Figures may be not "perfectly right" but tendencies are absolutely clear.

Now about your conclusions:
In 1945 after demobilization of the Red Army, men of those ages, to which was extended the order about the demobilization, were sent to their houses as well as POWs of the corresponding ages, that passed checking.
Those who were not demobilized, were restored on military service (obligatory military service). As a military men they had to leave and work where their military unit was located. However, war already ended, and now to the country were necessary workers, but not soldiers, so ex-POWs as many other soldiers were transfered to work batalions. These batallions restored west part of Russia where fighting took place and not "unpleasant ones, like Magadan or Kolyma". There everything was in order. In 1946-1948 in the Soviet Army were arranged big demobilization and thus soldiers came back home.

Your comparison of post war USA and USSR I can call only pointless. USSR after 4 yaers of war on it`s territory, more than 20 million dead citizens, destroyed cities, towns, villiges, hunger and labour for 12-14 hours a day for the front for the Victory on the one hand and fat, self-satisfied, not even bombed USA, playing with atomic bomb, on the other hand. Rather strange comparisant.

Lancer44
07-18-2006, 09:59 AM
Hi,Lancer44!


Figures may be not "perfectly right" but tendencies are absolutely clear.

Now about your conclusions:
In 1945 after demobilization of the Red Army, men of those ages, to which was extended the order about the demobilization, were sent to their houses as well as POWs of the corresponding ages, that passed checking.
Those who were not demobilized, were restored on military service (obligatory military service). As a military men they had to leave and work where their military unit was located. However, war already ended, and now to the country were necessary workers, but not soldiers, so ex-POWs as many other soldiers were transfered to work batalions. These batallions restored west part of Russia where fighting took place and not "unpleasant ones, like Magadan or Kolyma". There everything was in order. In 1946-1948 in the Soviet Army were arranged big demobilization and thus soldiers came back home.

Hi Sturmfuhrer!


(OFF TOPIC - SORRY MEMBERS!)
I always envy you guys living in such a beautiful city. I live in Sydney, but Petersburg is absolutely gorgeous - one thing only worry me - it is the place where Leningrad Military District is situated...

As I'm a bit suspicious about shadowy figures like Lenin I would like to ask you if this rumour is true?

Back to the topic:
So you think that 3 years delay in coming back home, for soldier which started the war in 1941 and could go home 1948 is ... eeehmmmm ... normal?

(Actually my father started war in 1939 and went home in 1947, just in time to get arrested for 1 year....) And all this thanks to uncle Joe...
But he was bloody imperialistic Pole, enemy of the USSR, soviet people, soviet ideas and soviet brothers in Poland). What about your own "children of the revolution"???


Your comparison of post war USA and USSR I can call only pointless. USSR after 4 yaers of war on it`s territory, more than 20 million dead citizens, destroyed cities, towns, villiges, hunger and labour for 12-14 hours a day for the front for the Victory on the one hand and fat, self-satisfied, not even bombed USA, playing with atomic bomb, on the other hand. Rather strange comparisant.

In this regard I totally agree with you. I never attempted to compare USSR and USA in 1945. Crazy idea!
I just wanted to compare human suffering on both sides.
No matter how you weight suffering of American POW in Japanese jungle hell hole, if you look at fate of soviet soldier - honest one - not traitor - never even intended to join nazis... it was miserable. Usually he was getting 5 to 10 years of hard labour after the war.

I know that you are trying to proof opposite, but I have sources and provide them tomorrow.
(It is 12.00 and I have to go to bed)

Cheers mate,

Lancer44

Sturmfuhrer
07-19-2006, 07:01 AM
Hi Sturmfuhrer!


(OFF TOPIC - SORRY MEMBERS!)
I always envy you guys living in such a beautiful city. I live in Sydney, but Petersburg is absolutely gorgeous - one thing only worry me - it is the place where Leningrad Military District is situated...

As I'm a bit suspicious about shadowy figures like Lenin I would like to ask you if this rumour is true?





Hi, Lancer44!

Due to my poor English, didn`t understand your question. If still interested, try one more time.


So you think that 3 years delay in coming back home, for soldier which started the war in 1941 and could go home 1948 is ... eeehmmmm ... normal?

Following your logic, they could stay at home in 1941 and it should had been ... eeehmmmm ... perfect? It was vital for Soviet people to win the fight with german fashists and it was not less vital to restore our country lying in ruins. By the way, not only soldiers restored country. Lots of civilian people volunteed work brigads. My grandmother came as a volunteer of the Ural student work brigade to restore ruined Leingrad.
Soviet soldiers could not return to peacefull life as american cowboy, who shooted a little in Europe and than returned to his rancho or hacienda. And it wasn`t someone wicked will, as you trying to introduce, but harsh reality.
Besides, you trying to use modern morality and values of modern civil society giving estimation to historical events. Such methods will lead you only to a blind alley.

So I suppose we left the theme. It`s not your words, but I oppose mostly for them:

"I knew that stalin murdered million of his people and that from the surviving roundabout 50% russianan pows some 80% got straight to the russian gulags"

"It must have been hard to think you have been rescuded after years of mal treatment, just to suffers more years of mal treatment at the hands of your own country."

I`d like to think, that I gave for the authors some new ihformation to think about.

Lancer44
07-19-2006, 08:17 AM
Hi Sturmfuhrer!


Hi, Lancer44!

Due to my poor English, didn`t understand your question. If still interested, try one more time.

OK let's start again:

1. Your English is not poor! Don't think like that and put yourself down! Your English is improving every day and you know about that.
I can say the same about my English ... so what...? We understand each other and this is what matter. Perhaps it is easier for Pole and Rus to talk English and understand each other, than blab in their native, "close to each other", languages and fight...
We should not repeat mistakes of our grandfathers.

2. I heard that despite Leningrad is now St. Petersburg, Russian Federation military terminology still says: "Leningrad Military District". Is this true?
Or some bullshit? I would really like to know.


Following your logic, they could stay at home in 1941 and it should had been ... eeehmmmm ... perfect? It was vital for Soviet people to win the fight with german fashists and it was not less vital to restore our country lying in ruins. By the way, not only soldiers restored country. Lots of civilian people volunteed work brigads. My grandmother came as a volunteer of the Ural student work brigade to restore ruined Leingrad.
Soviet soldiers could not return to peacefull life as american cowboy, who shooted a little in Europe and than returned to his rancho or hacienda. And it wasn`t someone wicked will, as you trying to introduce, but harsh reality..

I understand. But I also think that there is no difference between any young man drafted to the army in any circumstances and any war, let's say: Russian, Hungarian, American, Argentinian, Romanian, Polish, Slovenian, German, Welsh, Scottish, English, Serbian, Croatian and etc, etc, etc.

They won or they lost.
Who cares, we all are only pawns on God's chessboard, (btw I,m an atheist...), but every human which willingly or not was forced to risk his/her life for ephemeric politicians crap, should deserve a bit of human treatment and compassion.
War ended, we won, ...."can I go for two weeks to see mom, dad, sisters?"
- "No, you have to go to rebuild the bridge in xxxxx."
or - "We need you in X to dig out all mines from the fields".

Do you like it? Would you like to be in this position?
Do you understand that state and it's administration should be a servant for the people which defend this state? For simple soldiers, doesn't matter if from Ohio or from Krasnodar.



Besides, you trying to use modern morality and values of modern civil society giving estimation to historical events. Such methods will lead you only to a blind alley...

Look, my father told me a lot about WWII, he told me about shooting of German SS man on the spot, about fellows which volunteered to do it, about strict orders to use coded words, about "not taking prisoners" in radio commmunications, about "clever moves" to disguise shooting of surrendering Germans and flattening their bodies with Staghound AC, just to mislead omnipresent British Intelligence...

And so, what? I still love and respect my father. He passed away in 1989.
He never seen his dream - he never seen collapse of USSR - thing about which he dreamed perhaps every night since 1947.
Can you apply any modern morality to this?



So I suppose we left the theme. It`s not your words, but I oppose mostly for them:

"I knew that stalin murdered million of his people and that from the surviving roundabout 50% russianan pows some 80% got straight to the russian gulags"

"It must have been hard to think you have been rescuded after years of mal treatment, just to suffers more years of mal treatment at the hands of your own country."

I`d like to think, that I gave for the authors some new ihformation to think about.

Sturmfuhrer, I will give you a bit better or, say, different, data about Russian POWs, give me some time.

Cheers,

Lancer44

Sturmfuhrer
08-11-2006, 09:11 AM
Hi Lancer,

Sorry for the long reply, I lost this thread.

You asked:
I heard that despite Leningrad is now St. Petersburg, Russian Federation military terminology still says: "Leningrad Military District". Is this true?
Or some bullshit? I would really like to know.

As far as I know it's called North-West Military District. There is another curios thing. My native city now is called Sant-Petersburg but region around S-Pb is Leningrad region. This situation has no political ground just economical and adminestative.
BTW the decision to rename Leningrad back to S-Pb was taken on referendum for all the citizens.


Sturmfuhrer, I will give you a bit better or, say, different, data about Russian POWs, give me some time.

Ok will wait.
Can help you. Try Soljenicin, Novodvorskaya and etc. There will be lots of cries about millions you want to hear about but no historical docs or data.

Dani
08-11-2006, 09:19 AM
As far as I know it's called North-West Military District.

Your MOD have other view...
http://www.mil.ru/eng/1862/12068/12089/12231/index.shtml

Sturmfuhrer
08-11-2006, 03:52 PM
Your MOD have other view...
http://www.mil.ru/eng/1862/12068/12089/12231/index.shtml

Ok. I wrote "as far as I know", so I was mistaken. Never was interested like Lancer. I worked in Ministry of Intirior Affairs. Anyway this name has no political background as I said before.