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Lancer44
06-23-2006, 09:23 AM
At first I wanted to place this thread in Kovalski's "What happened on this day", but I think that this thread will grow up - material is huge, than it deserve to be in "Other Military Units".
It will be also fair that it is not placed in "Russian Military". Fair play is fair play...

23 of June 1941 - at 09:28 AM the national anthem of Lithuania, Tautiška giesmė, was played on the radio in Kaunas.
Lithuanian National Uprising which started a day before was successful. Lithuania regained independence.
The main forces of the Lithuanian Activist Force were concentrated in the major cities of Vilnius and Kaunas, but minor clashes also occurred in rural areas and smaller towns. Major fights happened near the Metalas factory in Kaunas and Šančiai, a small town near Kaunas as the rebels tried to prevent the Soviet army from crossing the Nemunas. (Niemen)
Estimated number of the Lithuanian armed rebels is about 30,000 with further 70,000 ALF members.
The retreating Red Army massacred (in some cases after torturing them) popular Lithuanian figures, political prisoners and criminal prisoners who were arrested during the first Soviet occupation. From 1,000 to 2,000 people were killed; the main massacres were at Rainiai, Pravieniškės, Červenė and Panevėžys. Soviet casualties in the uprising were somewhat larger: about 5,000 Soviet soldiers and activists were killed, as the Soviet forces were caught unprepared.

From the very beginning relations with Germany were very complicated. Germany did not recognise the new government despite the hopes that it would be possible to reestablish an independent Lithuania by using the confrontation between the Germans and Soviets. German troops invaded Lithuania and, as Lithuania had no army, it could not resist. The Germans did not depose the government, probably avoiding confrontation with popular LAF and subsequent guerrilla war, at least until the German army could establish itself in Lithuania. The government did not organise any resistance against Germany because it understood that any guerilla war at that point would have been futile, and would have led to the dissolution of government and most likely major repressions against the Lithaunian people.

Events of 23-rd June 1941 ultimately led to the longest extension of WWII in Europe. Last Lithuanian Armed Resistance member was killed in 1965. Regular active units of Lithuanian Underground Army were fighting until 1956.

OFF TOPIC< SORRY< SORRY< SORRY >>>>>> For members of Forum from USA and other "far away from Lithuania" countries, I want to remind that 1956 was a year of Olympic Games in Melbourne, year of Budapest Uprising in Hungary, (crushed by soviet tanks), year of Polish Uprising in Poznan and later semi-good October revolt, year in which Nikita Khruschev tried to show soviet people Stalin's crimes in his "top secret speach". (Soviet people knew much more than Nikita dared to say, but this was a fashion in 1956...). Nikita was participating in most of Stalin's crimes, at least as Ukraine was concerned, but as you know there is always a good opportunity to blame the boss. lol

(1956 was also the year in which Polish AAA artillery dared to shoot to Khruschev plane - it is sort of an urban legend and I will appreciate corrections.) It is a fact that in October 1956 soviet forces occupying Poland almost clashed with People's Polish Army.
This army was never officially named People's, and probably because of some crazy Polish tradition wanted to fry some soviet T-55s. (Or just wanted to... liberate some alcohol from Red Army). lol

End OFF topic >> End >>>End>>>End

Coming back to Lithuania, I'm really fond of one member of Lithuanian Freedom Fighters.
I'm Polish, he was Lithuanian, but he is my hero, regarded even more than my own "Lupaszka", "Ogien", "Bartek" or "Szary".
"Hawk" was a real men... I salute Him and would like to ask anyone reading this post to stay in silence for one minute and think about this brave man.

Adolfas Ramanauskas - "Vanagas" ("Hawk") was born in 1918 March 6, in New Britain, USA. 1921 his family returned to Lithuania. In 1936 he finished secondary school ("gymnasium") in Lazdijai, later Pedagogical Institute in Klaipeda, and Soviet Military School in 1940. (Smart move - LAF encouraged such decisions.)
He worked as a teacher in a very small town Krivonys, near Druskininkai. In 1945 he joined the ranks of the Freedom Fighters, first as commander of Nemunaitis platoon. In the summer of 1945 he became a commander of "Merkine" battalion in the "Dzukai" group. In 1946 he became a commander of "Merkys" brigade, and in the fall of 1947 - commander of "Dainava" military district. In 1948 "Vanagas" became o commander of all "South" region of Lithuania. Together with all commanders and leaders of Freedom Fight he signed the famous "Declaration of LLKS, 1949 February 16th" ("DECLARATION BY THE COUNCIL OF THE MOVEMENT OF THE STRUGGLE FOR FREEDOM OF LITHUANIA") http://www3.lrs.lt/cgi-bin/preps2?Condition1=90678&Condition2=
In 1949 September 18 he get a rank of the colonel of Lithuanian partisans. Because of illness of chief commander J.Zemaitis - "Vytautas", from 1952 May 20 Adolfas Ramanauskas - "Vanagas" became a chairman of LLKS council.

Adolfas Ramanauskas - "Vanagas" ("Hawk") was arrested in Kaunas 1956 October 12. After sadistic tortures by Russian occupants he was sentenced to death penalty. Executed 1957 November 29.

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/2362/ladolfasramanauskasvanagas3xf.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Adolfas Ramanauskas - "Vanagas" ("Hawk") with the hawks on this shoulders. 1947 fighting for free Lithuania.


http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/4678/ldecorationinkazimieraitisbrig.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Decoration of "Kazimieraitis" brigade, "Dainava" military district. Lionginas Baliukevicius - "Dzukas" reading the order, while Adolfas Ramanauskas - "Vanagas" (commander) decorating courier, miss Sofija Budenaite - "Ramune". 1948

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2781/lcommandersofdainavadistr4qw.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
"Dainava" distr. From the l.: Pranas Ivanauskas - "Bevardis", platoon commander in "Vanagas" group, "Kazimieraitis" brigade; commander "Vanagas"; Lionginas Baliukevicius - "Dzukas" - member of district Staff; Stasys Klimasauskas - "Genys" - Vanagas group 1948.

MESSAGE TO NON EASTERN EUROPEAN MEMBERS: IF YOU LIKE TO KNOW MORE, PLEASE INDICATE IT, VOICE YOUR OPINION, SO FAR IT LOOKS LIKE SOME PEOPLE WRITE AND THEY DON'T KNOW IF THEIR MESSAGES ARE REACHING ANYONE... Just say: "this was interesting" or " your post was total crap", any input welcomed...

Salute,

Lancer44

George Eller
06-24-2006, 04:55 PM
-

Hi Lancer,

I found this article quite interesting. As in so many parts of the world at that time, World War II did not necessarily stop with the surrender of Germany and Japan. Fighting carried on in such places as China between the Communist and Nationalist forces, in Palestine during the struggle to establish the state of Israel, in Greece during their civil war, in French Indochina, British Malaya and Dutch East Indies (Indonesian war of independance).

That Adolfas Ramanauskas - "Vanagas" ("Hawk") was quite an interesting character...very tragic ending though.

At any rate, I just wanted to say thanks.


George

-

Kovalski
06-26-2006, 03:17 PM
I would like to present a short history of polish anti-communist movement.
Unfortunately, I'm very, very busy recently so this post is just an introduction.

After entering the polish territory in January 1944, Red Army did not
bring freedom, nor peace to Poland. After initial cooperation between
Armia Krajowa (Home Army) troops and Soviet forces against Germans
(Operation "Burza" - Storm), NKVD started a large scale arresting
of members of polish underground. Majority of them were imprisoned
or murdered fast. The rest of soldiers was forced to join the 1st and 2nd Army (communist) comanded by gen. Zygmunt Berling and gen. Karol "Walter" Swierczewski. The largest and well-organised movement was first to be destroyed in aim to weaken the polish element. Despite of that the underground was still on guard for independence. Ressistance against soviet domination instantly assumed the form of organised warfare. Main guerilla units fought until end of 40's, but in some areas much longer.
When almost whole world celebrated the D-Day in Europe on night of 8-9th of May, a company of polish ressistance fighters led by mjr "Bruzda" was on its way to rescue their fellow comrades held in prison by Security Force in city of Grajewo. For these men the war was not over.
They were members of new secret organisation called "Freedom and Independence" ("Wolnosc i Niezawislosc - WiN).
It's creation (in january 1945) was a desperate act of protest against
traitors' rule imposed by soviet military. When all agreements between
Allies (made in Teheran in Yalta) became widely known, it was obvious
that 3rd World War will not break out soon. And only defeat of Soviet Union
in future conflict could bring freedom to Poland. Without any chance for help from the outside, all these fighters who avoided being captured by NKVD or Security Service carried on their fight. The new underground structure free of Soviet infiltration was ready in January 1945. It took over the control over remaining Home Army units and structures.
The main aim of this organisation was preventing communist from winning in incoming elections to parliament. The WiN's leader demanded withdrawal of
Red Army and NKVD from Poland. They also postulated an indenpendence
from Soviet Union and need of democratic elections.
That's why WiN became a main internal enemy of new rulers and their
Security Service. Since 1944 WiN and other anti-communist organisations kept fighting in self-defence. The exact number of undeground fighters is unknown, but estimated at least 30000 soldiers.
They launched hundreds of successful attacks against Militia Posts, Security Service Barracks and prisons. They fought against huge enemy supported with tanks, artillery and air force. And many times they were victorious.
The last of them, Jozef "Lalek" Franczak was killed in his shelter
by Security Service on 21st of october 1963.

I'll try to prepare next post asap - I will tell you a story of Mjr Zygmunt "Lupaszko" Szendzielarz, who's name inspired fear among polish communists.

deserter
07-07-2006, 10:25 AM
Would anyone know what the relationship was between the Armia Krajowa and the Jews?

Ingsoc
07-07-2006, 12:56 PM
Would anyone know what the relationship was between the Armia Krajowa and the Jews?

In February 1942, the Operational Command of the AK Information and Propaganda Office set up the Section for Jewish Affairs, directed by Henryk Woliński. This section collected data about the situation of the Jewish population, drafted reports and sent information to London. It also centralized contacts between Polish and Jewish military organizations. The AK also organised financial aid for Jews (see Żegota). The AK accepted only a few Jews (about one thousand) into its own ranks: it generally turned down Jewish applicants, since they could be more easily identified by the Nazis.

One of AK members, Witold Pilecki, was the only person to volunteer for imprisonment in Auschwitz. The information he gathered proved crucial in convincing Western Allies about the fate of Jewish population.

The AK provided the Warsaw Ghetto with about sixty revolvers, several hundred hand grenades, and ammunition and explosives. During the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising in 1943, AK units tried twice to blow up the ghetto wall, carried out holding actions outside the ghetto walls, and together with GL forces sporadically attacked German sentry units near the ghetto walls. Security Cadre (Kadra Bezpieczeństwa or KB), one of the organizations subordinate to the AK, under the command of Henryk Iwański took a direct part in fights inside the ghetto together with Jewish fighters from ŻZW and ŻOB.

Three out of seven members of the Collective Command of the AK (KG AK) had Jewish origins.

While most historians agree that AK was largely untainted in collaboration with Nazis in the Holocaust, the accusations of the complicity of single AK members or groups in anti-Jewish violence in Poland are frequently brought up to this day. The issue remains a controversial one and is subject to a difficult debate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armia_Krajowa#Relations_with_Jews

I should also add that some Jewish partisan give evidence that they were attacked by the AK.

Stahler
07-08-2006, 04:40 AM
Hi Lancer,

very good thread. Continue please. This stories must be known.

Greetings Stahler

Panzerknacker
07-09-2006, 02:31 PM
VERY, Very good information boys.

In regard with the baltic freedom fighters...is interesting, maybe that explain why in Latvia and Estonia, the Waffen SS veteran can carry proudly his uniforms ans medals, thing that is forbiden and /or politically incorrect in the western Europena countries.

http://aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/baltic_nazis/latvia/index.htm

Lancer44
07-09-2006, 08:56 PM
VERY, Very good information boys.

In regard with the baltic freedom fighters...is interesting, maybe that explain why in Latvia and Estonia, the Waffen SS veteran can carry proudly his uniforms ans medals, thing that is forbiden and /or politically incorrect in the western Europena countries.

http://aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/baltic_nazis/latvia/index.htm



Hi Panzerknacker,

Perhaps this will be an explanation:

The guerilla operations in Estonia and Latvia had some basis in Hitler's authorisation of a full withdrawal from Estonia in mid-September 1944 he allowed any soldiers of his Estonian forces, primarily the 20th Waffen-SS Division (1st Estonian), who wished to stay and defend their homes to do so and in the fate of Army Group Courland, among the last of Hitler's forces to surrender after it became trapped in the Courland Pocket on the Latvian peninsula in 1945. Many Estonian and Latvian soldiers, and a few Germans, evaded capture and fought as Forest Brothers in the countryside for years after the war. Others, such as Alfons Rebane and Alfrēds Riekstiņ escaped to the United Kingdom and Sweden and participated in Allied intelligence operations in aid of the Forest Brothers.

While the Waffen-SS was found guilty of war crimes and other atrocities and declared a criminal organization after the War, in 1949-1950 the United States Displaced Persons Commission investigated the Estonian and Latvian divisions and on September 1, 1950 adopted the following policy:

" The Baltic Waffen SS Units are to be considered as separate and distinct in purpose, ideology, activities, and qualifications for membership from the German SS, and therefore the Commission holds them not to be a movement hostile to the Government of the United States under Section 13 of the Displaced Persons Act, as amended"

The Latvian government has documented that the Latvian Legion (primarily comprised of the 15th and 19th Latvian Waffen-SS divisions) was neither a criminal nor collaborationist organization. Mart Laar (Prime Minister of Estonia, 1992-1994 and 1999-2002), in his 1992 book War in the Woods: Estonia's Struggle for Survival, 1944-1956 debunked Soviet propaganda that had painted the Baltic resistance as having been orchestrated by wealthy landowners and Nazi officials and noted that the Forest Brothers counted among their ranks anti-Nazis and former Soviet partisans. Nevertheless, for some, the links between some Forest Brothers and the Nazi regime remain controversial.

The ranks of the resistance swelled with the Red Army's attempts at conscription in the Baltic states after the war, with fewer than half the registered conscripts reporting in some districts. The widespread harassment of disappeared conscripts' families pushed more people to evade authorities in the forests. Many enlisted men deserted, taking their weapons with them.


By the late 1940s and early 1950s the Forest Brothers were provided with supplies, liaison officers and logistical coordination by the British (MI6), American, and Swedish secret intelligence services. This support played a key role in directing the Baltic resistance movement, however it diminished significantly after MI6's Operation Jungle was severely compromised by the activities of British spies (Kim Philby and others) who forwarded information to the Soviets, enabling the KGB to identify, infiltrate and eliminate many Baltic guerilla units and cut others off from any further contact with Western intelligence operatives.

The conflict between the Soviet armed forces and the Forest Brothers lasted over a decade and cost at least 50,000 lives. Estimates for the number of guerillas in each country vary. Misiunas and Taagepera estimate between 10,000 and 15,000 in Latvia and 170,000 for Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania combined


Woods, Alan. Bolshevism: The Road to Revolution, Wellred Publications, London, 1999. ISBN 1900007053
Skultans, Vieda. The Testimony of Lives: Narrative and Memory in Post-Soviet Latvia, pp. 83-84, Routledge, 1st edition, December 22, 1997. ISBN 0415162890
a b c d Kaszeta, Daniel J. Lithuanian Resistance to Foreign Occupation 1940-1952, Lituanus, Volume 34, No. 3, Fall 1988. ISSN 0024-5089
Mackevicičius, Mečislovas. Lithuanian Resistance to German Mobilization Attempts 1941-1944, Lituanus Vol. 32, No. 4, Winter 1986. ISSN 0024-5089
Letter from Harry N. Rosenfield, Acting Chairman of United States Displaced Persons Commision, to Mr. Johannes Kaiv, Acting Consul General of Estonia, in re memorandum from the Estonian Committee in the United States zone of Germany on the question of former Estonian Legionnaires seeking admission to the United States under the Displaced Persons Act, as amended. September 13, 1950.
Feldmanis, Inesis and Kangeris, Kārlis. The Volunteer SS Legion in Latvia, Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Latvia, n.d.
a b c Laar, Mart. War in the Woods: Estonia's Struggle for Survival, 1944-1956, translated by Tiina Ets, Compass Press, November 1992. ISBN 0929590082
Misiunas, Romuald and Taagepera, Rein. The Baltic States: Years of Dependence, 1940-1990, University of California Press, expanded & updated edition, October 1, 1993. ISBN 0520082281
Unknown author. excerpt from Lithuania's Struggle For Freedom, unknown year.
a b Kuodytė, Dalia and Tracevskis, Rokas. The Unknown War: Armed Anti-Soviet Resistance in Lithuania in 19441953, 2004. ISBN 9986-757-59-2
Tarm, Michael. The Forgotten War, City Paper's The Baltic States Worldwide, 1996.
Huang, Mel. Review of Mart Laar's War in the Woods: Estonia's Struggle for Survival, 1944-1956. Central Europe Review, Vol. 1, No. 12, September 13, 1999. ISSN 1212-8732
Seimas of the Republic of Lithuania. Law on the February 16, 1949 Declaration by the Council of the Movement of the Struggle for Freedom of Lithuania, Law No. VIII-1021, January 12, 1999, Vilnius.

Panzerknacker
07-11-2006, 09:02 PM
" The Baltic Waffen SS Units are to be considered as separate and distinct in purpose, ideology, activities, and qualifications for membership from the German SS, and therefore the Commission holds them not to be a movement hostile to the Government of the United States under Section 13 of the Displaced Persons Act, as amended"

Interesting but this kind of policy does not seems made by the same author wich allowed the escapade of Klaus Barbie for example.

Aniway I think that a good choice but the Baltics were not a "war crime free" organization.

Chevan
07-16-2006, 01:30 PM
Interesting but this kind of policy does not seems made by the same author wich allowed the escapade of Klaus Barbie for example.

Aniway I think that a good choice but the Baltics were not a "war crime free" organization.
I agree with you , Panzerknacker. Baltic Waffen SS used by germans as instrument for the "dirty" work. They together with baltic policai are critical in murder of tens of thousands of Jews in the territory of the Baltic States.
In 1946 the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg adjudged Waffen SS to be a criminal organization.
There is an enormous quantity of evidence those proving, that ALL VOLUNTARY FASCIST ORGANIZATIONS in THE BALTIC STATES (Waffen SS, Police batalions end ets) were used by practical Germans for the accomplishment of military crimes by their hands.



The Baltic Waffen SS Units are to be considered as separate and distinct in purpose, ideology, activities, and qualifications for membership from the German SS, and therefore the Commission holds them not to be a movement hostile to the Government of the United States under Section 13 of the Displaced Persons Act, as amended
This Comission just proved that the USA it approaches the war criminals from the position of "dual standards". This is typical situation during the Cold War:
" If these sons of bitch fight against THE USSR - they our sons of bitch. Fact that they killed tens of thousands people (not comunists) it does not have a value."
Here is something interesting about this theme in english
http://aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/baltic_nazis/latvia/index.htm

Panzerknacker
07-16-2006, 02:22 PM
Probably not everyone but no doubt that they had his criminals too.

By the way In Estonia there is also a monument to the Wafeen SS fighters.

"For the crusaders against bolshevism" in the inscription.

Chevan
07-16-2006, 04:35 PM
Probably not everyone but no doubt that they had his criminals too.

By the way In Estonia there is also a monument to the Wafeen SS fighters.

"For the crusaders against bolshevism" in the inscription.

You know Panzerknacker, I think that in this way they soon will establish monument to Hitler "as main crusaders against the bolshevism"

Lancer44
07-17-2006, 07:54 AM
You know Panzerknacker, I think that in this way they soon will establish monument to Hitler "as main crusaders against the bolshevism"

With help of Mr. Rezun/Suvorov, ex GRU agent it will happen sooner or later...

It doesn't mean that I approve such measure... Not at all! Twists of history are incredible!

lol

Personally I think that Baltic States have right to commemorate their fighters in the "context of their history".
They had war criminals in their ranks too... For sure! Just as Polish soldiers shooting German POWs near Chambois or before Ancona was captured, (my father told me a lot...), or Americans starving Germans near Remagen, Canadians shooting Germans right at the Juno Beach and ever after, 45-th American Division "which never took prisoners" and finally soviet "big brothers" which fed every German with "svinaya tuschonka", gave him full pot of freshly brewed tea and transfered to cosy camp where he could spend the rest of the war just looking at burning logs in the barrack fireplace. lol

Do you agree with me, Chevan?

Looking at Finns, Romanians, Hungarians, Bulgarians and Slovaks history during WWII, we can see the whole picture. Every mentioned nation was pushed into Hitler's camp by Stalin's aggressive policy. They just had no choice...
Fortunately for them they were not drawn into USSR as soviet republics, but remained nominally independent - therefore their resistance after the war was taking different form.

And it is a pity Chevan, that you will never understand that some people, nations and social groups, were more afraid of soviets than nazis.
Nazis were killing some members of their societies, intelligentsia and Jews, but never attempted to completely destroy the "soul" of nation to the extent which soviets managed to display between September 1939 to June 1941.

Zdarova!

Lancer44

Panzerknacker
07-17-2006, 06:52 PM
Well, war crimes were everywere if there is the case, But were most usual in two armies, the german, and russian alike.

Chevan
07-18-2006, 07:56 AM
Well, war crimes were everywere if there is the case, But were most usual in two armies, the german, and russian alike.
War crimes had place in any armies which took part in WW2 in both sides. But fight German and Soviet was most cruel, becouse it determinated of two mortal idiology.

Lancer44
07-18-2006, 08:04 AM
War crimes had place in any armies which took part in WW2 in both sides. But fight German and Soviet was most cruel, becouse it determinated of two mortal idiology.

You are perfectly right!

That's why I personally think that any ideology is very dangerous.
War in Pacific was not much less cruel due to the rasism on both sides.

Cheers,

Lancer44

Chevan
07-18-2006, 09:02 AM
With help of Mr. Rezun/Suvorov, ex GRU agent it will happen sooner or later...

It doesn't mean that I approve such measure... Not at all! Twists of history are incredible!

lol

Personally I think that Baltic States have right to commemorate their fighters in the "context of their history".
They had war criminals in their ranks too... For sure! Just as Polish soldiers shooting German POWs near Chambois or before Ancona was captured, (my father told me a lot...), or Americans starving Germans near Remagen, Canadians shooting Germans right at the Juno Beach and ever after, 45-th American Division "which never took prisoners" and finally soviet "big brothers" which fed every German with "svinaya tuschonka", gave him full pot of freshly brewed tea and transfered to cosy camp where he could spend the rest of the war just looking at burning logs in the barrack fireplace. lol

Do you agree with me, Chevan?

Looking at Finns, Romanians, Hungarians, Bulgarians and Slovaks history during WWII, we can see the whole picture. Every mentioned nation was pushed into Hitler's camp by Stalin's aggressive policy. They just had no choice...
Fortunately for them they were not drawn into USSR as soviet republics, but remained nominally independent - therefore their resistance after the war was taking different form.

And it is a pity Chevan, that you will never understand that some people, nations and social groups, were more afraid of soviets than nazis.
Nazis were killing some members of their societies, intelligentsia and Jews, but never attempted to completely destroy the "soul" of nation to the extent which soviets managed to display between September 1939 to June 1941.

Zdarova!

Lancer44
Lincer , i never justified Stalin polisy of "Victory of International Proletariat". I think Soviet communism was a big mistake. Today i see agressive reasons of USSR polity, but in that cinic time befor ww2 it was usual behaviour of countries.
For example your matheland Poland concluded non-agressive pact with Nazi Germany in 1934. In 1935 it was the economic adgeement betwin both. Polish-German relation was such friendly till the end of 1938 that Poland even increase own territory (at expense of Chehoslovakia).
Look at all this of Stalin's eyes. He had no reason to be the friendly or respectly with Poland.


"Looking at Finns, Romanians, Hungarians, Bulgarians and Slovaks history during WWII, we can see the whole picture. Every mentioned nation was pushed into Hitler's camp by Stalin's aggressive policy. They just had no choice..."

It rigt to say "they found better way together with Hitler" .
This little predators want to deside his problem in company with great predator Hitler. They must think about result. The bag was so nearly.
It's the fate.

Cheers

Chevan
07-19-2006, 01:40 AM
You are perfectly right!

That's why I personally think that any ideology is very dangerous.
War in Pacific was not much less cruel due to the rasism on both sides.

Cheers,

Lancer44
No,no dear friend. I told just about European theatre.
War in Pacific is another theme.
Jupanes had own race ideology.

Lancer44
07-19-2006, 02:21 AM
No,no dear friend. I told just about European theatre.
War in Pacific is another theme.
Japanese had own race ideology.

Hi Chevan,

I did not mean just Japanese racism. I meant American racism towards Japanese.
But this is total OFF TOPIC.
If you want to discuss, set up thread in Pacific Theatre.

Lancer44

Lancer44
07-27-2006, 10:10 PM
This thread somewhat drifted into off topics and I decided to revive it.

PHOTOGRAPHS MAY BE DISTURBING! ANYONE SENSITIVE SHOULD NOT WATCH.
I wanted to paste hotlinks at first, but they don't work.

Photographs are from the Photo Album "For Freedom and Fatherland" /"Už laisvę ir Tėvynę" : [fotoalbumas / sudarytojai Dalia Kuodytė, Eugenijus Peikštenis, Dalius Žygelis ; teksto autoriai Dalia Kuodytė, Jonas Vaičenonis]. - Vilnius : Valstybės žinios : Lietuvos gyventojų genocido ir rezistencijos tyrimo centras, 2004 (Vilnius : Sapnų sala). - 255, [1] p. : iliustr. - Dalis gretut. teksto liet., angl. - Tiražas 1500 egz. - ISBN 9986-18-132-1 (įr.)/

But the primary source of these pictures off course is (left by the soviets), archive of "Vilnius branch of KGB", the same "company" that Russia's president Vladimir Putin belongs to.

NKVD - MGB and KGB employed very civilised way of discouraging Baltic States population from resistance to "Workers paradise", they were puting bodies of killed freedom fighters on public displays. Such displays are well remembered by older Lithuanians.

At first let's see Elena Gendrolyte-Jurkuniene - "Balanda" , teacher with her class.

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/6117/llteacherelenagendrolytebalandafm2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Below body of Elena on public display in Kelme...in 1953 - eight years after end of WWII.

http://img273.imageshack.us/img273/6753/llpartisansjurkunasgendrolytebaksyscm2.jpg
Elena Gendrolyte-Jurkuniene - "Balanda" was born in 1926 in Kasciukai village, Kelmes distr., Raseiniai region. From 1947 she became supporter and liaison of Raudgiris platoon, "Kestutis" military distr. Member of staff of "Juros" ("See") military region. KIA in 1953 January 17th together with commander of "Western" ("See") part of fighting Lithuania A. Baksys - "Klajunas" and her husband A. Jurkunas - "Valeras" in the village of Pazukai, Kelme distr. Body was put on public display in Kelme. Take a look of wooden stick that was put by soviets to hold up her head.

http://img273.imageshack.us/img273/6924/lithuanianpartisans1951jr3.jpg
Bodies of KIA Lithuanian partisans in Lazdijai, in the main square, in front of Russian MGB headquarters. 1951.

http://img273.imageshack.us/img273/15/llunknownltpartisanszemaitijaxo2.jpg
Bodies of KIA unknown Lithuanian freedom fighters from Aukstatija.


Lancer44

Edited by Dani: All you have to do is to paste the link in your post. Or in your case, to remove any tags.
Edited by Lancer44 to fix spelling mistake.

Lancer44
07-27-2006, 10:30 PM
http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/6462/llfromaukstatijasr7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Lithuanian partisans from Aukstatija - alive.

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/5567/llantanaskraujalisgl0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
The last KIA Lithuanian warrior Antanas Kraujalis - "Siaubunas", from "Vytautas" district. killed in action in 17th of March 1965

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/2680/lljuozasluksaskirmantas1950do5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
From left: Juozas Luksa -"Daumantas" (architect, writer of the bestseller "Fighters for Freedom" , KIA 1951.09.04); Viktoras Vitkauskas - "Saidokas" (book-keeper, Commander of "Tauras" district, KIA 1951.02.02), Pranas Naujokas - "Kietis"
Notice US made MK-2 grenades.

One of most outstanding figures in WW2, that in Lithuania ended only after 1993.08.31 (when the last soldier of Russian occupation forces had left the country) was architect Juozas Luksa - "Daumantas", "Skirmantas" (1921.08.10 - 1951.09.04).

He joined armed fight in the Spring of 1945. 1947 became a commander of "Birute" brigade, "Tauras" district (south of Lithuania). In the May of 1947 together with J.Kriksciunas - "Rimvydas" he crossed Iron Curtain (border) for Poland to restore contacts with Lithuanian political leaders in exile. Returned back and after some time crossed border (during the fighting with NKVD border units) again in 15th of October 1947. From Poland he reached the West - visited and made great number of contacts with Lithuanian leaders and unofficial with the officials from secret services of US, UK and France in W. Germany, France, Sweden - seeking for any political and military support from Western Democracies. Unfortunately, the only support he get - was a treason by NKVD-KGB agents infiltrated in UK MI, and US CIA.

Juozas Luksa get married in France with Lithuanian girl, both knowing, that he is going to return back soon, to continue his fight to the end. She died few years ago, still as a widow of Juozas Luksa.
During his short stay in the Free countries he wrote the book about what was really going on in Lithuania (the bestseller) "Freedom Fighters: Lithuanian Partisans Versus the U.S.S.R, 1944-1947":

The book was translated in many languages. Here is in English:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0871410494/qid=975451215/sr=1-1/thestoryoflithua

In 1950.10.03 he was paratrooped with other two Lithuanian Freedom Fighters, (all armed and well trained in special secret service schools in France and W.Germany - Klemensas Sirvys - "Sakalas" (1926-2003) and Benediktas Trumpys - "Rytis" (1919-1951). During this landing in Zemaitija, they have lost some of the equipment, because of the traitors in UK MI. NKVD were well informed and waiting for them! But all 3 managed to reach the active Partisans in the South of Lithuania, "Tauras" military district. B.Trumpys - "Rytis" KIA in 1951.05.20 in his bunker, near Zapyskis (close to Kaunas), but K.Sirvys - "Sakalas", from 1951.07.20 commander of "Zalgiris" brigade, in 1952.07.24 was not killed in action, but unfortunately only wounded. After NKVD treatment, he became a traitor of MGB and during 2 years was used for provocation and other purposes. After that he was sentenced 25 years in Communist Labor camp plus 5 years in exile. After that he in the 1970 returned to occupied Lithuania. Died in 2003.



Lancer44



Large part of this post was taken from "Lit" thread in Axis Forum.

Edited once to add source.

Jasa
07-28-2006, 10:51 AM
If you want to see some disturbing photos maybe you should look at what the UPA did to Polish peasant families in Volyn.

Chevan
07-29-2006, 04:26 PM
If you want to see some disturbing photos maybe you should look at what the UPA did to Polish peasant families in Volyn.
I read about Volyn. It was terrible.

Lancer , maybe you never hear that "forest brother" after ww2 killed in Litva 25 000 peoples most of them (23 000) were the civilians.
Do you want to see some photo of victims of "Freedom fighters"?
Ore another interesting information about bandits who cruel killed it's own countrymens?
When you write about "fogotten soviet war" please , give the full picture of violence, not just "one side".

Cheers.

Lancer44
07-30-2006, 03:43 AM
I read about Volyn. It was terrible.

Lancer , maybe you never hear that "forest brother" after ww2 killed in Litva 25 000 peoples most of them (23 000) were the civilians.
Do you want to see some photo of victims of "Freedom fighters"?
Ore another interesting information about bandits who cruel killed it's own countrymens?
When you write about "fogotten soviet war" please , give the full picture of violence, not just "one side".

Cheers.

Chevan, I know well that "forest brethren" killed many people. I think real figures are higher than yours.
For me the facts stated below are important:
1. This was USSR which occupied LIthuania and other Baltic states.
2. This was USSR which beside occupation and numerous murders and/or forcible resettlements behind Ural or to Gulag camps, incorporated Pribaltika into USSR.
3. As history show it was against wish of 99% of population of this countries.
4. There is no other way to defend any country than killing attackers and occupants.

Cheers,

Lancer44

Jasa
07-30-2006, 08:59 AM
Chevan, I know well that "forest brethren" killed many people. I think real figures are higher than yours.
For me the facts stated below are important:
1. This was USSR which occupied LIthuania and other Baltic states.
2. This was USSR which beside occupation and numerous murders and/or forcible resettlements behind Ural or to Gulag camps, incorporated Pribaltika into USSR.
3. As history show it was against wish of 99% of population of this countries.
4. There is no other way to defend any country than killing attackers and occupants.

Cheers,

Lancer44

1. They annexed these territories under the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

2. What is your source for the 99% claim? From the Baltic nationalists perhaps? The same jerkoffs who don't even remember that their buddy Germany was responsible for their annexation?

3. Russia had a right to defend its borders too. The Baltic land was necessary for this.

Lancer44
07-30-2006, 07:25 PM
1. They annexed these territories under the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

2. What is your source for the 99% claim? From the Baltic nationalists perhaps? The same jerkoffs who don't even remember that their buddy Germany was responsible for their annexation?

3. Russia had a right to defend its borders too. The Baltic land was necessary for this.

Jasa, no offence, but you display tribal mentality. Annexation and occupation = aggression no matter what pacts are involved.
After 45 years of soviet occupation 99% of Lithuanians supported independence.

The right to defend its borders cannot be justification for aggression and occupation + mass killings and deportations. There were soviet murders and deportations before "forest brethren".
Every action is causing reaction.
It's the same with Volyn, UPA and treatment of Poles by Ukrainians.
Ukrainians lived for many years in humiliation because policies of Polish nobility first, than Polish settlers, than finally totally stupid policies of Polish government between 1921 and 1939.
I talked to some people and they remembered that Ukrainians were treated badly, very badly. Revange was inevitable. I don't blame them. How cruel this revange was is another matter. But again I would not like to be in UPA members shoes when they were caught by Home Army squads. Same cruelty on both sides.

Lancer44

Chevan
07-31-2006, 03:45 AM
Jasa, no offence, but you display tribal mentality. Annexation and occupation = aggression no matter what pacts are involved.
After 45 years of soviet occupation 99% of Lithuanians supported independence.
.
Lancer44
Mate , no offense, but sometimes yourself "display tribal mentality".
After 45 (in 1990) all republic of USSR supported independence. It's absolutly don't mean that in 1939 Baltic on 99% was against USSR. It's nonsense.
I belive that Finland was strongly against entering USSR , therefore it was the Winter war.
Besides , Stalin never wanted to include all Finland to the USSR, just some territory near the Leningrad.
But Baltic states themself ask to enter into USSR ( I agry that it was the pressure of Stalin) but it never was 99% against USSR.
Perhaps some number of population (about 60 %) was displeased ( and only 10-15% was enemily).
You forgot that in that period the communism was strong (all the Europe countries had ComParty ) . And many peoples in Baltic states (not all) of couse was under Comunism ideology too.

Jasa
07-31-2006, 09:21 AM
Jasa, no offence, but you display tribal mentality. Annexation and occupation = aggression no matter what pacts are involved.
After 45 years of soviet occupation 99% of Lithuanians supported independence.

The right to defend its borders cannot be justification for aggression and occupation + mass killings and deportations. There were soviet murders and deportations before "forest brethren".
Every action is causing reaction.
It's the same with Volyn, UPA and treatment of Poles by Ukrainians.
Ukrainians lived for many years in humiliation because policies of Polish nobility first, than Polish settlers, than finally totally stupid policies of Polish government between 1921 and 1939.
I talked to some people and they remembered that Ukrainians were treated badly, very badly. Revange was inevitable. I don't blame them. How cruel this revange was is another matter. But again I would not like to be in UPA members shoes when they were caught by Home Army squads. Same cruelty on both sides.

Lancer44


Revenge? Why did the UPA have to take its revenge on unarmed woman and children in Poland?

Kovalski
07-31-2006, 09:28 AM
Because for generations there were opressed by the Poles?
Because they hated Poles so much?
Maybe also because they tried to force Poles to escape?
Or maybe because they tried to exterminate to most ressistant ones?

Jasa
07-31-2006, 09:51 AM
Because for generations there were opressed by the Poles?
Because they hated Poles so much?
Maybe also because they tried to force Poles to escape?
Or maybe because they tried to exterminate to most ressistant ones?


The CHILDREN were the most resistant Poles? Well that speaks very good for Poland at least but DAMN! Besides, the oppression of Ukrainians in Galicia by Poles in no way justifies what the UPA did.

Kovalski
07-31-2006, 10:04 AM
I was trying to make you aware of complexity of this problem.
But I'm afraid that you are able to see some aspects, mostly the most comfortable for you.
I'm not justyfing the UPA. I'm not justifing any of the people who kill children, women, olders, or any unarmed human being. And it doesn't matter what organisation or nation they represent.

Egorka
01-28-2007, 05:10 PM
Guys,

What was the relation between Lithuanian Activist Front and the Nazi Germany prior to 22-June-1941?
From what I have read here it is obvious, that their aprising was coordinated with Germans. Or I am mistaken?

And do you know if Algirdas Klimaitis was a member of Lithuanian Activist Front?


a small town near Kaunas as the rebels tried to prevent the Soviet army from crossing the Nemunas. (Niemen)
Which way was the Red Army crossing the river? I guess they were retreating, right? And LAF tried to prevet them from fleeing Germans?

Lancer44
01-28-2007, 10:07 PM
Guys,
What was the relation between Lithuanian Activist Front and the Nazi Germany prior to 22-June-1941?
From what I have read here it is obvious, that their aprising was coordinated with Germans. Or I am mistaken?


Let's not believe in miracles and LAF complete independence.. German Abwehr obviously penetrated LAF and probably influenced decision about uprising.


And do you know if Algirdas Klimaitis was a member of Lithuanian Activist Front?

Lithuanians are adamant that he and his unit was not in LAF. It cannot be proven anyway.



Which way was the Red Army crossing the river? I guess they were retreating, right? And LAF tried to prevet them from fleeing Germans?

Obviously, by preventing retreat, LAF helped Wehrmacht in destruction of soviet units.

Anyone looking at situation in June 1941 should look at a broader picture.
Below link to Latvian site which explain a lot about situation in Baltic states.

http://home.parks.lv/leonards/BaigaisGads/eng/saturs.htm

Pages from 68 to 89 may explain what retreating soviet forces could expect from enraged Latvians.
The same situation was in Lithuania and Estonia.

Egorka
01-29-2007, 05:14 PM
Below link to Latvian site which explain a lot about situation in Baltic states.
http://home.parks.lv/leonards/Baigai...eng/saturs.htm

On the page 96 there is given indication for the "uncountable" and "INNUMERABLE" victims:
Arrested, Banished, Missing (driven away) - 32.895;
Murderd - 1.355;

The Latvian population was 2.000.000 people in 1939.

I do NOT mean it in a cinical way, but since we are such great historians in here and try to look at things in a "broader picture", I would like to say that the number of victims was rather low. Obviously, it does not make it any easier for the murdered ones.

In USSR in 1936 - 1937 almost 1000 death sentences were given every f**king day. Even if half of them was justifiable, it still makes this 1355 in 1 year a drop in an ocean. But this is of course looking at "broader picture". So one could argue, that Stalin showed his feminine side when handling Latvia.

I do understand that for Latvians it is a big deal. No objection for that! But still there a "broader picture" left to deal with... hmm...

N.B: Hey, guys! If 1355 is "uncountable" and "INNUMERABLE", then what does it make 600.000 civilian german victims of firebombing in to? Hmmm... tough one... Aaahh, I should be looking at "broader picture"!

Best regards and wishing well to everyone! And sorry for some sarcasm...
Igor Korenev

Chevan
01-30-2007, 09:04 AM
On the page 96 there is given indication for the "uncountable" and "INNUMERABLE" victims:
Arrested, Banished, Missing (driven away) - 32.895;
Murderd - 1.355;

Just for the comparision.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-German_cooperation_with_Nazis_during_World_War_II# Latvia


Having occupied Latvia in summer 1941, the German command created the local voluntary troops (Schutzmannschaft or Schuma), to struggle against the Soviet partisans and serve as guards in concentration camps for Jews and Soviet prisoners of war. [1] [2] The group of the Latvian auxiliary police known as Arajs Commando murdered about 26,000 Jews, mainly in November and December 1941.


Don't need to repit for you that so called Latvian Freedom fighter killed not only jews but also and other nationalities from the neighbourgh states.

Egorka
03-16-2007, 06:03 PM
Hello Guys!

Sorry, if it has been mentioned here, but I wanted to ask
what was the type of the goverment in the 3 Baltic coutries prior to 1940?
Was it democratic? ;)

Kovalski
03-17-2007, 09:13 AM
Hello Guys!

Sorry, if it has been mentioned here, but I wanted to ask
what was the type of the goverment in the 3 Baltic coutries prior to 1940?
Was it democratic? ;)

Hi Egorka,

here's the answer:
Latvia - an authoritarian regime of Karlis Ulmanis,
Estonia - an authoritarian regime of Konstantin Pts,
Lithuania - an authoritarian regime of Antanas Smeton.
In all three countries the power had been seized by force - classic "coup d'tat" (Lithuania in 1926, Latvia and Estonia in 1934).

Cheers,
Kovalski

Panzerknacker
03-18-2007, 03:13 PM
Just to add that in this topic Wikipedia may noy be a very reliable source due all the ethnics and political themes involved.

Chevan
03-18-2007, 03:27 PM
Just to add that in this topic Wikipedia may noy be a very reliable source due all the ethnics and political themes involved.
But WIKI was a "enough reliable" source for them who like to tell about soviet war crimes .
Let's go on Egorka.;)

Egorka
03-18-2007, 04:04 PM
Hi guys,

When I asked I already knew the answer my self. But I was reluctant to say it. Wanted to non-russian person to put it in here. Kovalski gave a great answer to my question.

Panzercracker, did not you know that the govermants of all 3 Baltic states in 1930s were the result of the military coup? ;)

Panzerknacker
03-18-2007, 06:51 PM
But WIKI was a "enough reliable" source for them who like to tell about soviet war crimes .
Let's go on Egorka.;)

My statement work for the two postures in this topic.


Panzercracker did not you know that the govermants of all 3 Baltic states in 1930s were the result of the military coup? ;)

You mean Panzerknacker....I did not, that is a shame compared with the democracy in the CCCP. :mrgreen:

Chevan
03-19-2007, 02:31 AM
Ha hA hA Ha .....:D
Panzercracker- so much better,..... ;)
Sorry mate for banality but that's funny.

Egorka
03-19-2007, 07:49 AM
You mean Panzerknacker....
No offence, but is not it practically the same.


I did not, that is a shame compared with the democracy in the CCCP. :mrgreen:
Yes, very funny for us nowadays! :) But there were in fact number of peoplein the Baltic countries before 1940, that were thinking about USSR ar a more democratic alternative to the natinalistic authoritarian regimes.

It all much easier and clearer backwards...

The famous Danish philosofer S&#248;ren Kirkeg&#229;rd said in 18th century: "Life must be understood backwards; but... it must be lived forward."
It sounds even better in Danish!

.

Panzerknacker
03-19-2007, 10:49 AM
Probably they did not know the democratic alternative very well.

And if you wish to call me Panzercraker (even it sound like a cookie) you can do it.

Egorka
04-10-2007, 07:28 AM
Here is an interesting stuff about the views of British goverment (and particulary Lord Halifax) on the Baltic countries and Finland on June 1941, a week before Germany attacked USSR.

Source: http://www.gutenberg-e.org/osc01/images/osc07d.html

Here are just 2 pages. I advise to read the document from the beginning.

page 4
http://www.gutenberg-e.org/osc01/images/osc07dd.jpg

page 5
http://www.gutenberg-e.org/osc01/images/osc07de.jpg


And can anyone read this one (marked as "FDR note") and post the text here? I can not figure out the handwriting...
source: http://www.gutenberg-e.org/osc01/images/osc07dg.html
http://www.gutenberg-e.org/osc01/images/osc07dg.jpg

deserter
04-18-2007, 03:24 PM
In February 1942, the Operational Command of the AK Information and Propaganda Office set up the Section for Jewish Affairs, directed by Henryk Woliński. This section collected data about the situation of the Jewish population, drafted reports and sent information to London. It also centralized contacts between Polish and Jewish military organizations. The AK also organised financial aid for Jews (see Żegota). The AK accepted only a few Jews (about one thousand) into its own ranks: it generally turned down Jewish applicants, since they could be more easily identified by the Nazis.

One of AK members, Witold Pilecki, was the only person to volunteer for imprisonment in Auschwitz. The information he gathered proved crucial in convincing Western Allies about the fate of Jewish population.

The AK provided the Warsaw Ghetto with about sixty revolvers, several hundred hand grenades, and ammunition and explosives. During the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising in 1943, AK units tried twice to blow up the ghetto wall, carried out holding actions outside the ghetto walls, and together with GL forces sporadically attacked German sentry units near the ghetto walls. Security Cadre (Kadra Bezpieczeństwa or KB), one of the organizations subordinate to the AK, under the command of Henryk Iwański took a direct part in fights inside the ghetto together with Jewish fighters from ŻZW and ŻOB.

Three out of seven members of the Collective Command of the AK (KG AK) had Jewish origins.

While most historians agree that AK was largely untainted in collaboration with Nazis in the Holocaust, the accusations of the complicity of single AK members or groups in anti-Jewish violence in Poland are frequently brought up to this day. The issue remains a controversial one and is subject to a difficult debate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armia_Krajowa#Relations_with_Jews

I should also add that some Jewish partisan give evidence that they were attacked by the AK.

Thx for answering my question (though it sure took me long enough to say it). I was wondering about this ever since reading Yaffa Eliach's "There Once was a World". Eliach and some novelists have stressed the anti-semitism of the AK. They may have overdone it. Most Poles are anti-semitic, but it had more of a religious-cultural basis as opposed to the psuedo-racial basis of the nazis. I had anti-semitic relatives in Poland who hid Jews during the occupation.

Kovalski
04-19-2007, 05:52 AM
Most Poles are anti-semitic

Sure, and UFO did landed in Rosewell :)

Chevan
04-20-2007, 05:23 AM
He He He;)
I/ve aready told you Kovalski the covering the jews during ww2 does not save the Poland from the jewish financial court claims.
The common portraytion of the Poland is mostly anti-semitic.

tankgeezer
05-06-2007, 10:08 AM
Sure, and UFO did landed in Rosewell :)

Ufo didnt land in Roswell, it crashed in Roswell.

Kovalski
05-07-2007, 02:53 AM
Ufo didnt land in Roswell, it crashed in Roswell.

Whatever... :|

tankgeezer
05-07-2007, 09:49 AM
****joking !****:)

deserter
05-08-2007, 04:32 PM
Sure, and UFO did landed in Rosewell :)

I take that back, most BEFORE the war were anti-semitic, there are few Jews left there today. However, I did specify that it was a religious based anti-semitism, not a nazi type. Like one disliking Mormons or Jehova Witnesses.

nomonhan
02-07-2008, 08:11 PM
Igor Korenev,
I cannot make out all of FDR's handwriting but can decipher most:

To Till Cripps(?) most unwise to advocate now my approval of pre-1919 Russian frontiers.
In addition, contrary to Atlantic Charter. xxx-xxx sure Cripps will not want to make me call attention to that fact. The matter had best be handled between xxx + me a bit later on

In essence, FDR wanted to not discuss the issue. Later on, the US never recognized the incorporation of the Baltic states into the Soviet Union.

Egorka
02-08-2008, 03:47 AM
Thank you, nomonhan!

Fennica
02-08-2008, 06:48 AM
Mate , no offense, but sometimes yourself "display tribal mentality".
After 45 (in 1990) all republic of USSR supported independence. It's absolutly don't mean that in 1939 Baltic on 99% was against USSR. It's nonsense.They just had to be annexed? Estonians did fight, but the overwhelming numbers were too much.


I belive that Finland was strongly against entering USSR , therefore it was the Winter war.Yes..? This is a simple truth.


Besides , Stalin never wanted to include all Finland to the USSR, just some territory near the Leningrad. And now you go and say against your own previous statement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Winter-War-Overview.png
http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Talvisota/Kartat/cwdata/3912aJoukkojenVoimasuhteet.html


But Baltic states themself ask to enter into USSR ( I agry that it was the pressure of Stalin) but it never was 99% against USSR. ?? wait-what??
This is profoundly wrong. Ask any Estonian, and they tell you something which is not remotely close to this case. I have asked.


Perhaps some number of population (about 60 %) was displeased ( and only 10-15% was enemily).
You forgot that in that period the communism was strong (all the Europe countries had ComParty ) . And many peoples in Baltic states (not all) of couse was under Comunism ideology too.40 000 Estonians were exported and communist puppets were the ones who "asked" to be "allowed" to join the SU.(nice article in history-magazine gave pretty good frames in this matter, and studies did confirm the magazines numbers)
-I presume that you have knowledge to counter this?

Egorka
02-08-2008, 04:13 PM
They just had to be annexed? Estonians did fight, but the overwhelming numbers were too much.
Estonia was more or less the only one with some cases of resistance. On the contrary in Latvia there was practicaly no resistance at all.
Again there was a considerable portion of the people that was seeing USSR as a better option compare to the military dictatorship regims in the Baltic States.
Not that it proves much...


40 000 Estonians were exported and communist puppets were the ones who "asked" to be "allowed" to join the SU.(nice article in history-magazine gave pretty good frames in this matter, and studies did confirm the magazines numbers)
-I presume that you have knowledge to counter this?
Sorry, I do not get it. You mean 40.000 Estonians were deported to inner USSR?

Fennica
02-08-2008, 06:03 PM
Estonia was more or less the only one with some cases of resistance. On the contrary in Latvia there was practicaly no resistance at all. Estonians were looking for allies right before the war. They figured that Finns would help, seeing that Finns were involved in the civil-war there and are kin.
But we had neither manpower nor material to send then.


Again there was a considerable portion of the people that was seeing USSR as a better option compare to the military dictatorship regims in the Baltic States.
Not that it proves much...Many don't actually know that they were less democratic then.
During ww2, they were just a few of democratic republics to begin with.



Sorry, I do not get it. You mean 40.000 Estonians were deported to inner USSR?Jep. It might take me a while to actually get the magazine back, as it lies within the coffee-break place of my workplace.. But I'll see who made the article.