Japanese sword, a toy or a destructive device ?

[Panzerknacker]

Probably many people had seen one of these use as ornamental device but in the close combat arena it was a very usable edged weapon..or not?

The japanese army adopted it in 1937 and used until the end.




http://www.compfused.com/directlink/608/

[Panzerknacker]

The katana used as propaganda weapon, a gigantic samurai sinking ships in this italian poster celebrating the attack on Pearl Harbour.

[Lancer44]

Japanes officers swords had also very infamous usage - beheading of allies POWs...
I will send some photos Monday - have them at work.
Swords become very much sought collectibles among allied troops.
Japanese flag - original one - was going for about $100 - quite considerable sum these days. Sword could fetch even $300.

Personally I don't believe that samurai swords had an advantage when confronted with Tomphson SMG or Garand Rifle... :)

Cheers,

Lancer44

[Cuts]

I don't really understand the point of those videos.
That tempered steel can sometimes deflect a soft copper envelope containing even softer lead ?

They remind me of the schoolboy discussions of which would win in a fight, a shark or a grizzly bear.

Not even a pretence of scientific analysis, the sword vibrates, the M2 was bedded by Action Man - and as for the 9 mm (?) "test" the less said the better.

Now all we need is a swordsman who is slimmer than his wpn and with reactions of a speeding bullet.




Can hardly wait for the test of sunglasses against a fission wpn...
:roll:

[Panzerknacker]

the purpose of the video ?...dont know but is however is fun :)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Katana-bois-p1000654.jpg/800px-Katana-bois-p1000654.jpg

Personally I don't believe that samurai swords had an advantage when confronted with Tomphson SMG or Garand Rifle...

I had no chance for sure, but probably it was more useful than a bayonet.

[Panzerknacker]

A interesting link dealing with the parts and elaborated construction and finishing of te katana sword.

http://www2.memenet.or.jp/kinugawa/english/sword/sword100.htm

http://www2.memenet.or.jp/kinugawa/english/sword/image/ka100.gif

[Trooper]

It seems that main use of the Japanese sword was chopping the heads off of innocent civilians in the rape of Nanking.

I doubt it ever saw much use in combat.

[Panzerknacker]

Not only in Nanking but also in other places, yes it was the practice, I have some pictures but I wont post those for matters of good taste.

Probably the only combat it saw was in the last stand "Banzai" infantry attack.

[1000ydstare]

Unless I am very much mistaken the Japanese officers always carried their swords exposed in attacks, as their soldiers nearly always fitted bayonets even their MGs (in particular the one that looked similar to the Bren) were fitted with bayonets. So I would surmise that the swords did see action. If only close in when the toms had opted for bayonet fighting.

Certainly the jungle warfare that the Japanese were often involved in would have lent itself to the use of a sword as a particularly effective close in weapon.

[temujin77]

Unless I am very much mistaken the Japanese officers always carried their swords exposed in attacks, as their soldiers nearly always fitted bayonets even their MGs (in particular the one that looked similar to the Bren) were fitted with bayonets. So I would surmise that the swords did see action. If only close in when the toms had opted for bayonet fighting.

Certainly the jungle warfare that the Japanese were often involved in would have lent itself to the use of a sword as a particularly effective close in weapon.

The purpose of the samurai sword is not so much functional. It is rather ceremonial in nature. It is a symbol of the Bushido spirit. A comparable symbolism in the western world is like how American cavalry officers during the American Civil War still wielded rapiers during battle even when muskets were the standard weapons. A more modern example is that when men of the USMC don their dress uniforms, they still carry their ceremonial swords. Swords are symbols of the proud history of a soldier's profession, and to the Japanese the traditiona is not only military but also spiritual.

[Panzerknacker]

Sure the simbolism was important, even sometimes ackward check this japanese tankist with katana. ¡¡¡¡

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/3771/espada6rg.jpg

[WaistGunner]

Somewhat entertaining video but not very practical to decide whether the Katana was effective as a functioal weapon or not. After all the katana wasn't intended to be used as armor of to deflect bullets. You could use similiar video to question the use of a trench knife or K-bar or bayonet. I'm guessing they wouldn't fair much better if mounted in cement with an M-2 unleashed on them. If I was in a fixed bayonet charge I wouldn't want to meet the guy skilled with a Katana. To me the video just proves that some people have no respect for a fine edged weapon. What a waste of Katana. To me a better demonstration would have been to pit a man with a Katana against a man with a rifle and bayonet (practice weapons of course).

[Lancer44]

http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/1204/beheadingsz9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Aitape, New Guinea, 24 October 1943: Sergeant L. G. Siffleet, M Special Unit, tied and blindfolded, about to be beheaded. Sergeant Siffleet, a radio operator, was part of a long-range reconnaissance unit led by Dutchman, Sergeant Staverman, operating behind Japanese lines in New Guinea. The party was betrayed and Staverman killed. Siffleet and two Ambonese companions – Reharin and Pate Wail – were taken to the Japanese base at Aitape where all three were executed by beheading on the order of Vice-Admiral KAMADA, commander of Japanese naval forces at Aitape. According to the original caption to this photograph the name of the Japanese executioner was YASUNO, who died before the end of the war. Siffleet was buried on the beach at Aitape below the tideline and his body was never recovered. The photograph of his execution was taken by a Japanese soldier and found by American forces when they invaded Hollandia in 1944. The photograph of Siffleet’s execution appeared shortly afterwards in American, and subsequently Australian, publications as an illustration of the brutality with which prisoners of the Japanese were treated. For many years in Australia the photo was captioned as if it depicted the execution of Flight Lieutenant Newton VC, Royal Australian Air Force, by the Japanese at Salamaua, New Guinea, on 29 March 1943.

Photograph and caption courtesy of AMW Canberra

Lancer44

[Panzerknacker]

Well, really sad and brutal situation, some of the Doolitle B-25s mission crews wich were unfortunate enough to land in japanese controlled territory , sufered the same treatment.

[Hiddenrug]

Being an AUstralian I do not particulary like looking at Aus. POW's. Awful way to die, by the sword.

[Nickdfresh]

Well, really sad and brutal situation, some of the Doolitle B-25s mission crews wich were unfortunate enough to land in japanese controlled territory , sufered the same treatment.


As did countless Chinese in Manchuria in actual, reported, beheading contests. I believe two Lieutenants competed for the "honor" and both got tennis elbow from the swiping motion. Sick stuff.

[Nickdfresh]

It's only a "toy" if you have don't have a rifle, I could imagine that a samurai sword would be intimidating in a serious hand-to-hand fight. But then, they often didn't get that close.

Mostly, it'd be like this:

http://www.film.org.pl/prace/indiana/indiana011.jpg

[temujin77]

Nickdfresh, I believe you're referring to second lieutenants Mukai Toshiaki and Noda Tsuyoshi, thought I didn't know about the "tennis elbow" trivia. They were both tried and executed by the Chinese government in 1948 (I'm not sure by the Communists or Nationalists). I have some info here:

http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=38

As for your "toy" comment -- I tend to somewhat disagree with that. I don't think we can even compare swords and guns. Japanese officers don't carry necessarily with intention to fight with them as their primary weapon, just as an American Marine don't always attach their bayonet on their rifles and use it as a spear. For the western Marine, the bayonet is a tool/weapon when situation dictates it. Similarly, for the Japanese officer, the sword is a tool when appropriate. For one, leading your troops in battle with a traditionally honorable weapon can raise morale much more effectively than waving your sidearm in the air.

I think the video in the original post completely missed the point. It's amusing, but it's also rather useless. I can take a hammer and smash a rifle to bits. Does that mean modern soldiers should equip themselves with big hammers instead of their assault rifles?

[Lancer44]

It's only a "toy" if you have don't have a rifle, I could imagine that a samurai sword would be intimidating in a serious hand-to-hand fight. But then, they often didn't get that close.

Mostly, it'd be like this:

http://www.film.org.pl/prace/indiana/indiana011.jpg

This scene from 'Indiana Jones" is the best description of outcome of any competition between sword and gun.

[Doug 1956]

There was an incident in Burma when a Japanese officer rode (on a horse no less) up to a Grant tank, mounted it and proceeded to kill the tank commander with his sword. He then climbed in, killed or wounded another couple of crew before the 75mm loader (I think) managed to knock him on the head with his pistol butt then put four rounds into him.

[FW-190 Pilot]

i watch that myth tv series from discovery and they make an experiment, they tried to shoo the sword with machine gun and it can withstand a few shots before it snaps.

[Nickdfresh]

Nickdfresh, I believe you're referring to second lieutenants Mukai Toshiaki and Noda Tsuyoshi, thought I didn't know about the "tennis elbow" trivia. They were both tried and executed by the Chinese government in 1948 (I'm not sure by the Communists or Nationalists). I have some info here:

http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=38

Thanks for the background. I read about it in "Flyboys," where the contest was related. I'll check the info sometime, but I believe one of them "won" with over 100 beheadings mainly because they both had minor injuries and had to stop.

As for your "toy" comment -- I tend to somewhat disagree with that.

The toy comment wasn't really mine, I was just quoting and commenting on another preceding post. In fact, I didn't think it was a "toy," I believe that's what I implied anyways. And the swords were highly prized by U.S. servicemen as war trophies.

I don't think we can even compare swords and guns. Japanese officers don't carry necessarily with intention to fight with them as their primary weapon, just as an American Marine don't always attach their bayonet on their rifles and use it as a spear. For the western Marine, the bayonet is a tool/weapon when situation dictates it. Similarly, for the Japanese officer, the sword is a tool when appropriate. For one, leading your troops in battle with a traditionally honorable weapon can raise morale much more effectively than waving your sidearm in the air.

Well, I agree with this to some extent. Certainly, in fact by WWII, a pistol is little better than a sword on a modern battlefield against an industrialized enemy. And I believe Imperial Japanese officers carried both. As for
"raising morale," well that's all relative, I suppose if you hate your commanding officer because he is an asshole, then it really doesn't matter what he carries. And as we've seen in "Band of Brothers" with Maj. Dick Winters where his troops respected and would follow him anywhere regardless of which weapon he carried, which was the same proletarian weapon his soldiers carried, the M-1 rifle.

I think the video in the original post completely missed the point. It's amusing, but it's also rather useless. I can take a hammer and smash a rifle to bits. Does that mean modern soldiers should equip themselves with big hammers instead of their assault rifles?


I'm not sure about the video since I haven't yet watched it. I'll get back to you, but if it is the American program "Myth Busters," then they're probably just commenting on some urban myth such as "Japanese officers could deflect bullets in WWII with their swords" or something.

[Timbo in Oz]

they are made by blacksmiths, and since are high carbon,'

They consist several thousand laminations of extremely thin 'forged high carbon spring steel' (very highly sprungGGGGG!!!!! and 'pressured')

The initial small fat rectangular billet is heated to almost white hot and beaten/flattened to twice its length and the initial width, folded back over, reheated in charcoal, etc, etc repeated many times.

So it's 2 to the nth power and at 16 folds I think you'd have 6,500 or so laminations! And I think they go well above that!

Then they forge the blade and tang into 'the shape', which in profile is like a fattened wedge. As swords go it is perhaps the best, not much heavier than a 16th century rapier, it has an immensely strong (well supported) and horrifically sharp edge - which is difficult to blunt on the usual targets of swords, and is immensely resistant to bending away from its straight striking axis.

Further few European, Islamic, or Asian swords have a tang which is as strong as its blade to the katanas extent.

{I've watched one being made, even though it was blacksmiths and VERY NOISY, it was all very Zen.)

So repeated hits from a HMG should eventually trigger a release of the pressure / tension holding the laminations together.

Are there any allied ground force casualty figures due to katana wounds or is it hiding under 'blades'?.

It is possible they may have been quite high early on - when the Japanese regularly succeeded in overruning positions and coming to very close quarters - Wake, HongKong, Malaya, etc. but I doubt any of the dead's CofD ever reached their medical records from the retreat to Singapore.

Or for most of Kokoda too, and only a fraction of the wounded did anyway, they had to be carried across very high mountains / walk, to the Port Moresby bases! Yes, cas-evac got a bit better at the end of the long drive back to Buna. The last 10%? of it.

If you wanted to ge a feel for the Kokoda campaign - google Isurava for during the retreat, and Oivi-Gorari which was the peak battle of the push back to the Northern coast at Buna.

Isurava was hand-to-hand, but not so much at Oivi-Gorari.

Eric Bergerud in his book 'Touched with Fire" for Powell's on the War in the Pacific.

"Japan did not lose the ground war in the South Pacific in any single place. There was no equivalent of waterloo or Stalingrad ........... Yet if I were to pick one place where the war turned irrevocably against the Japanese, it was at Oivi-Gorari ....... The [Australians] inflicted a massive defeat on crack Japanese troops at small cost to themselves'

[Timbo in Oz]

they are made by blacksmiths, and since are high carbon,'

They consist several thousand laminations of extremely thin 'forged high carbon spring steel' (very highly sprungGGGGG!!!!! and 'pressured')

The initial small fat rectangular billet is heated to almost white hot and beaten/flattened to twice its length and the initial width, folded back over, reheated in charcoal, etc, etc repeated many times.

So it's 2 to the nth power and at 16 folds I think you'd have 6,500 or so laminations! And I think they go well above that!

Then they forge the blade and tang into 'the shape', which in profile is like a fattened wedge. As swords go it is perhaps the best, not much heavier than a 16th century rapier, it has an immensely strong (well supported) and horrifically sharp edge - which is difficult to blunt on the usual targets of swords, and is immensely strong in torsion and tension and thus the most resistant to bending away from its straight striking/cutting axis. It isnt a chopper nor is it a slasher scimitar - it is both!

Further few European, Islamic, or Asian swords have a tang which is as strong as its blade to the katanas extent.

{I've watched one being made, even though it was blacksmiths and VERY NOISY, it was all very Zen.)

So repeated hits from a HMG should eventually trigger a release of the pressure / tension holding the laminations together.


Use in battle.

Are there any allied ground force casualty figures due to katana wounds or is it hiding under 'blades'?.

It is possible they may have been quite high early on - when the Japanese regularly succeeded in overruning positions and coming to very close quarters - Wake, HongKong, Malaya, etc. but I doubt any of the dead's CofD ever reached their medical records from the retreat to Singapore.

Or for most of Kokoda too, and only a fraction of the wounded did anyway, they had to be carried across very high mountains / walk, to the Port Moresby bases! Yes, cas-evac got a bit better at the end of the long drive back to Buna. The last 10%? of it.

If you wanted to ge a feel for the Kokoda campaign - google Isurava for during the retreat, and Oivi-Gorari which was the peak battle of the push back to the Northern coast at Buna.

Isurava was hand-to-hand, but not so much at Oivi-Gorari.

Eric Bergerud in his book 'Touched with Fire" for Powell's on the War in the Pacific.

"Japan did not lose the ground war in the South Pacific in any single place. There was no equivalent of waterloo or Stalingrad ........... Yet if I were to pick one place where the war turned irrevocably against the Japanese, it was at Oivi-Gorari ....... The [Australians] inflicted a massive defeat on crack Japanese troops at small cost to themselves'.

[adler]

Hi all, new to the forum and thought someone could help. I ran across a sword exactly like this one at a pwan shop. he is asking 300 for it but I think I could get a bit off. It is alum. handle cast, and has numbers just like this on on the blade and scab. I checked on line and unless I am wrong it is worth 500$? it is in the same general condtion as the one in the link I am posting. any info on if I should pick it up would be helpful. thanks


http://www.quanonline.com/military/military_reference/japanese/sword_19.php#

[Panzerknacker]

Probably worth more if is original.



Katana in the propaganda, a U.S seamen stabed in the back, Pearl harbour.

http://i18.tinypic.com/2qsxte8.jpg

[Flammpanzer]

well, I think it was not a senseless toy. in close combat actions, it surely would have proved it`s performance in the hands of a trained jap.

I guess that because "sharp beating weapons" like the spades in special very often proved more effective than bayonets in such situations. it is more versatile anyway, because you can hit/cut AND stab with a sword and it not as cumbersome in use as the bayonet.

I have read a lot of reports where the use of the bayonet was judged as not as effective as many in our days think (WWI and WWII german troops often favoured the spade in close combat acions, it was simply better in many hand to hand combat situations) there was always the danger that the bayonet would brake or get stuck and so the attacker could also be killed/wounded easily. the psychological effect indeed was a great one, but the same would be with the katana. beside all this, there were studies at the end of the war, that figured out that by far most situations in close combats were decided with a SHOT and not with any sort of knife or spade etc. so the germans decided not to make a mount for fixing a bayonet on the sturmgewehr 44 as a result.

interesting though, that all modern armies use bayonets.

jens

[Panzerknacker]

Never hurt to have and spare cutting edge in your gear. I saw some pics of an soldier with a bloody blade knife in some close combat in Irak, I try post those in here.

[Flammpanzer]

sounds interesting. if someone is really interested in the issue of sharp weapons, bayonets in special, I can recommend this nice book (often found on www.ebay.de or www.egun.de).

allthough it is in german, it has a lot of rare pics and is a must-have for any collector. you will find a lot of information on the tactics in using bayonets.

jens

[Panzerknacker]

Interesting. By the way the last bayonettte charge I have knowledge was performed by Britische soldiers in the malvinas war.

http://www.aceros-de-hispania.com/image/daisho-gladius-sword/katana-sword.jpg

[Cuts]

There was quite a well reported one almost three years ago at Danny Boy, a checkpoint about 15 km south of Al Amarah in Iraq.

Led by Cpl Byles of 1PWRR on 14 May 04 (IIRC.)

[Panzerknacker]

Bayoneting with the SA80 ?

damn...that did not seems a easy work with this short rifle.

[Cuts]

Agreed, I was a lot happier with a real rifle.

That said, there were bayonets that fitted the STENs and the Uzi too.

[Panzerknacker]

The SLR for example :rolleyes:


---------------


Edged weapons in Irak:

Cpl. Samuel Toloza of El Salvador's Cuscatlan Battalion displays his bloodstained knife that he used to fend off Iraqi gunmen in Najaf, Iraq, last Saturday.


http://images.washtimes.com/photos/full/20040503-104904-9389.jpg



http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20040503-115511-7092r.htm

Believe or not the blade is not completely trown away from the battlefield. Even in our days. That fact I guess might work for the katana in ww2.

http://www.antiqueswords.com/images/bq1188-1_small.jpg

[Walther]

Interesting. By the way the last bayonettte charge I have knowledge was performed by Britische soldiers in the malvinas war.



Nope, there was one by a platoon of Royal Marines about two years ago in Southern Iraq. They found themselves beingoutnumbered and surrounded by Iraqi insurgents and their ammo was getting low, so the Lieutenant ordered bayonets fixed (on the SA-80 of all rifles!) and let them charge. It seems that cold steel has a serious psychological effect, the Iraqis broke and ran.


Years ago in university I dabbled in Kendo, Japanese fencing. During this time I watched a contest between my instructor, the at this time European champion against the at this time German champion (they were using Shinais, bamboo practice swords). In the hands of somebody who knows how to use a Katana, it is a deadly close combat weapon. But to get to any degree of proficiency with it (and I don't mean to use it to execute tied up prisoners), it takes years.

Jan

[Panzerknacker]

Actually yes...the last one that I have knowledge happen in 1982...I just not being familiar with the sucesses in Irak today since the Argentine military is not involved.

In any case that was refered by Cuts earlier:

There was quite a well reported one almost three years ago at Danny Boy, a checkpoint about 15 km south of Al Amarah in Iraq.

Led by Cpl Byles of 1PWRR on 14 May 04 (IIRC.)

[tankgeezer]

A interesting link dealing with the parts and elaborated construction and finishing of te katana sword.

http://www2.memenet.or.jp/kinugawa/english/sword/sword100.htm

http://www2.memenet.or.jp/kinugawa/english/sword/image/ka100.gif
Hi Panzerknacker, I have some insights on the Katana, its construction, and use.
the ability to produce large pieces of steel in the middle ages, was unknown. generally, only smaller pieces were possible, and so to make a blade, or any tool requiring steel with higher carbon content, the most part was made of iron, and the edge steel was welded to it in the forge. ( a difficult task for any but the most experienced smith. ) this was used for simple blades, and cutting tools for centuries. this conserved the smaller quantities of tool steel then available.
the Japanese methods for blade making were developed over some space of time, and utilized interleaved pieces of iron and steel,(called a "skelp" which were then fluxed, and hammer welded at forge to ultimately produce a "billet". This was done by repeatedly drawing out the piece lengthwise, to what ever length was best, then notching the piece with a chisel, folding while hot, and welding again. this process when repeated many times, (much like making pasta noodles, ) doubled the number of layers each time the piece was folded, and rewelded.
The main benefit of this treatment was to allow the carbon in the tool steel, to migrate under heating to the nearly no carbon iron, homogenizing the whole of the metal, (nearly)the laminal nature of the billet so made, also imparted great resilience over the entire length of the blade when completed. Great care had to be taken to keep inclusions from entering the piece during the fold/weld process, as these little bits of dirt, and silicate clinker, could weaken the weld between layers.
the billet created by this method would be drawn out, to the desired shape for the blade it would become, and would then be heat treated to relieve stresses from the forging process, and impart the need hardness strength, and toughness required for it to be useful. after further finishing, it would be tempered by means of processes known mostly only to the smiths that made them, (they all had their own secrets about this part, ) using river sand to protect the area of the edge so the spine could heat properly was on way to tell who did the work, they all had their own pattern for applying the sand paste to the edge, (the wavy line near the edge, ) sort of a signature.the final polishing, and testingwould be done, and The tang would be stamped with pertinant information about the maker, the owner, and whatever else they might think important to record. I've seen many tang inscriptions, but I cant read Japanese idiogaphs, so I dont know what they say.
This way of sword making was not used on the WW2 military blades, tho most were hand forged, they were not folded, but made from then available single pieces of tool steel. Tho prehaps some who could afford it may have had blades made in the old way for them. Many, took ancient family hierloom swords to combat, to honor their ancestors, and utilize the spirit of the blade to defeat an enemy.
It was common practise for ancient bladesmiths to sing a chant while creating a blade,they believed this would infuse a spirit into the blade, to make it strong, and successful in battle. (modern folks think the benefit if singing was to establish a good forging rhythm,to make the grainlines flow more evenly through the metal.but I'm not so sure,,, ) Which ever it was, they did a marverlous job making blades that have endured in excellent condition to this day.
The purpose of carrying a sword into modern combat is usually ceremonial, a tool to use to lead a charge, or direct troop movements, since it is easily seen above the heads of the troops. It is also a tool of inspiration, in that the weapon is pointed towards the enemy to signal intent to engage and fight. sort of an "En guarde" signal to the enemy. That they were useful in a battle is not impossible, in close fighting, a trained swordsman can do great harm in a short time. but at any distance, its still "bringing a knife to a gunfight". Now, someone mentioned deflecting bullets or cutting them in two with a Katana, I assume stories of battle, nearly any edged metal will cut a bullet fired at it, thats been a "wild West" show amusment for ages. that a man with a sword could intercept a bullet in flight, is not possible but by merest chance.
last little bit, you can buy blades made in the pattern welded style these days, even Katana blades, which you can build into a sword of your choice, or purchase completed swords with pattern blades, pocket knives too. Though this is not the true Damascus blade, it does look like it, so they are sold with that name. The true Damascus steel is another metal, for another story. - Raspenau -

[tankgeezer]

Hi all, new to the forum and thought someone could help. I ran across a sword exactly like this one at a pwan shop. he is asking 300 for it but I think I could get a bit off. It is alum. handle cast, and has numbers just like this on on the blade and scab. I checked on line and unless I am wrong it is worth 500$? it is in the same general condtion as the one in the link I am posting. any info on if I should pick it up would be helpful. thanks


http://www.quanonline.com/military/military_reference/japanese/sword_19.php#
That sword is not original. there should be no discoloration on the blade, not sure of the grip either. I owned such a sword, and it had a more traditional hilt on it, not of cast metal. If you like this sword, you might get an outside opinion from a collector, I would encourage you to do so, there are lots of fakes out there these days, Even if it is genuine, the heat colors should not be there at all. I think someone may have straightened a bent blade.

[Jenkin]

It seems that main use of the Japanese sword was chopping the heads off of innocent civilians in the rape of Nanking.

I doubt it ever saw much use in combat.

the Japanese Katana Sword saw about as much action as the Bayonet saw from evey other country, but the sword goes back to the wars during fuedal japan, and from this the rise in the number of the swords became a required armament that was used and required, mainly by the officers and the higher class soldiers. and the swords diddnt really exist to chop the heads off of the civillians, they were used in exactly the same reason why the bayonet existed. for close combat use

[Gutkowski]

Here is a officer's sword my Grandfather brought back from Cape Gloucester
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/gutkowski/Gramps%20WWII%20Marine%20Items/IMG_0580.jpg

I can only guess that this is a bullet deflection off the top of the handle

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/gutkowski/Gramps%20WWII%20Marine%20Items/IMG_0586.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/gutkowski/Gramps%20WWII%20Marine%20Items/DSCF1161.jpg


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/gutkowski/Gramps%20WWII%20Marine%20Items/DSCF1162.jpg

[Gutkowski]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/gutkowski/Gramps%20WWII%20Marine%20Items/DSCF1160.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/gutkowski/Gramps%20WWII%20Marine%20Items/DSCF1159.jpg

[Jenkin]

Gutkowski, they are some magnificent pictures of the sword, the bullet deflection i would agree with, and it would be a officers sword from the three interlocked rings on the handle, the thing that looks like a boat with the symbols on it would mean that the user was possibly a marine fighter, such as a pilot or a boat marine, and the faded symbol is the officers regimental number. But it looks a treat.

[Egorka]

Maybe this will be interesdting to someone in here: http://asiaout.blogspot.com/2007/09/blog-post_21.html

[Rising Sun*]

Maybe this will be interesdting to someone in here: http://asiaout.blogspot.com/2007/09/blog-post_21.html

It'd be a lot more interesting to me in English.

The pix just look like the standard Chinese swords and head loppers.

The Japanese didn't have a monopoly on butchery by sword.

They just made the unforgiveable mistake of doing it to Westerners.

And to Chinese which, strangely given the supposed Western contempt for Asia at the time, raised Western ire and provoked sanctions which led directly to Japan's last war.

Japan's butchery is largely forgotten now, because Westerners made the unforgivebable mistake of nuking the poor bloody Japanese who never did anything nasty to anyone, which has got caught up in a whole lot of Western protest, anti-American, anti-bloody-everything-who's-not-a-dipshit-hippy-with-no-knowledge-of-history movements.

[Panzerknacker]

Here is a officer's sword my Grandfather brought back from Cape Gloucester


Very nice piece, I am full of envy now. :mrgreen:

The Japanese didn't have a monopoly on butchery by sword.

Maybe not the monopoly but a long full tradition of use the sword for those.

[tamaneko]

My grandparents, who grew up in the occupied Philippines during the war, would tell us stories of how the Japanese soldiers would just take babies from their mothers, throw them into the air and try to "catch" them with their bayonets just for the fun of it. The officers would be even more dangerous with their swords and their penchant for using them on anyone who crossed them.

Those things have quite a dark history.

[tankgeezer]

The darkness is not in the sword, but in the arm that wields it.

[Jenkin]

Both Very True, but this still happened in fuedal Japan, and this style of massicre was only common to the soldiers that grew up around the Boshido training, as this was common to any family lines that either stood against them or opposed their thoughts or thier military advancements. but this is very true with the history of the Japanese and would not really suprise me at all

[bwing55543]

I don't know if Japanese soldiers were really planning to use their katana in combat. Sure, it may be able to stand up to the power of anything short of a .50 cal Browning machine gun, but I don't think they could deflect bullets Jedi-style either.

Anyway, this is the video showing the standoff between a Colt M1911 and a katana:
http://www.compfused.com/directlink/252/

The description of the link that was with the video with the Browning M2 was wrong in that it said this was a katana vs. 9mm pistol match; it's definitely a .45 ACP.