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Panzerknacker
04-30-2006, 02:08 PM
Breaking with the normal german late 1930s way of thinking that a proficient fighter should be a inline engine aircraft, The Focke-Wulf 190 was known as one of the best fighters during the Second World War. Created and developed under supervision of Prof. Kurt Tank, an unquestioned genius among aircraft engineers, it set new standards that the contenders had to rise to from its introduction to the end of the war. Produced in a run of more than 20 000 copies of all versions, the Fw 190 was an important factor determining the power and efficiency of the Luftwaffe.

V1

http://img239.echo.cx/img239/8994/13ez.jpg

Panzerknacker
04-30-2006, 02:11 PM
Development:


http://img82.echo.cx/img82/218/17cr.jpg


The prototype was completed in the late spring of 1939, got the registration number D-OPZE and after introductory ground tests, flew for the first time on June 1, 1939 with Hans Sander, chief test pilot in the Focke-Wulf Company at the controls. In the first test flights, good plane handling characteristics were demonstrated (e.g. precision controls response) but aileron response could have been improved. The engine cowling was not as good as expected and the engine still had a tendency to overheat. This problem was so severe that even during low powered flight cockpit temperature rose to 55*C. In addition, the cockpit was not properly sealed and exhaust gases had leaked into it. The exhaust gas level was dangerous for the pilot and only his oxygen mask saved Hans Sander from asphyxiation during the first flight.


http://img82.echo.cx/img82/4954/22nr.jpg

After the first series of tests, the plane was transferred to the main Luftwaffe research and development facility at Rechlin. This station also advised the RLM. During tests conducted in Rechlin, advantages and disadvantages of the new plane were discovered. The Fw 190 had shown a surprisingly high maximum speed during horizontal flight without armament at the altitude of 4000 m - 595 km/hr. Next, the plane was returned to the manufacturer for necessary modifications, especially in the cooling system. In the case of radial engines there was only one possible solution: to increase airflow over the engine. This was done by using a ten blade fan on the propeller shaft, in front of the engine, near the cowling. The tunnel spinner was replaced by a traditional spinner, covering only the airscrew hub of the VDM metal propeller. It was decided to use this after tunnel trials which had shown that the big spinner had not given proper airflow for efficient engine cooling and its influence on the reduction of pressure drag was not significant. Engine cooling was improved after this modification, but not to the expected level, and the engine still operated in the high range of acceptable temperatures.

FW-190 Pilot
05-01-2006, 12:58 AM
is is that true that the first few verison has a serious problem include the cockpit would get extremely hot due to improper cooling system?

SS Tiger
05-01-2006, 03:40 AM
Lots of good information there! It was a great aircraft, I would like to see more posts with information on the other versions?

Panzerknacker
05-01-2006, 10:12 AM
is is that true that the first few verison has a serious problem include the cockpit would get extremely hot due to improper cooling system?

The engine cowling was not as good as expected and the engine still had a tendency to overheat. This problem was so severe that even during low powered flight cockpit temperature rose to 55*C. In addition, the cockpit was not properly sealed and exhaust gases had leaked into it

The tight layout of the 38 liter two row radial BMW 139 did not help either.
The problem continue until the FW technicians decided to move into the new BMW design , that is the BMW 801, even heavier an with 42,7 liter, that was a less problematic powerplant.

The last aircraft in use the BMW 139 was the V2, also the V2 introduced armament for the first time, 2 x13mm Mgs in the wing roots, and 2x 7,92 in the outer wing.

FW-190V2
http://aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/periodicals/int_air_power_review/winter_2001_2002/web_gallery/images/fw-190_0027.jpg

http://aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/periodicals/int_air_power_review/winter_2001_2002/web_gallery/images/fw-190_0029.jpg

Panzerknacker
05-02-2006, 07:18 PM
FW-190A-0

In October 1940, the first of 40 Fw 190A-0 on order came from the production line. They received designations characteristic of prototypes: Fw 190V6 W.Nr.0006 and Fw 190V7. Both had the old wing because production started before introduction of the new wing and the first nine airframes were so advanced that the decision was made to introduce the modification from W.Nr.0015 plane.

http://i1.tinypic.com/x2oqop.jpg


Simultaneously with the new wing, a bigger horizontal tail was introduced. However, the enlarged vertical tail not applied until later, from the A-2 version. The Fw 190 V6 was used for characteristics and performances tests. Fw 190V7 was used for testing of a heavier armament consisting of two 20 mm Ikaria (Oerlikon licence) MG FF cannons (in addition to the four MG 17 machine guns), mounted in the wing center section just aft of the main gears attachment point. After firing tests at Tarnewitz, this armament was standardized for the Fw 190A-1 planes until the introduction of the 20 mm Mauser MG 151/20 cannons in place of the wing mounted MG 17. This became possible after the introduction of the new synchronizer (for firing through the propeller arc) that had not been ready for the series production.


An overheated A-0, the solution to that was enlarging the rear ventilation inlets.
http://aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/periodicals/int_air_power_review/winter_2001_2002/web_gallery/images/fw-190_0015.jpg

Panzerknacker
05-02-2006, 08:13 PM
FOCKE-WULF 190 A-1

http://img326.imageshack.us/img326/5029/fw19014kk.jpg


The first Fw 190A-1 planes came off the production line at the Focke-Wulf Marienburg factory in June 1941. During August the output rose to 30 planes a month. During this month, deliveries of licence production from Arado Warneminde factory started and were joined in October by deliveries from AGO Oschersleben so that by the end of September, 82 planes were delivered to Luftwaffe units and by end of October all 102 planes ordered were built. On one of these, designated as Fw 190A-1/U-1, a new engine was mounted: the 1700 hp BMW 801D-2.

Fw-190A-1 from JG-26 Schlageter.

http://aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/periodicals/int_air_power_review/winter_2001_2002/web_gallery/images/fw-190_0010.jpg

Some of the Fw 190A-1, like some of the A-0, got a FuG 25 IFF device in addition to the radio transceiver set FuG 7. In the Technical Office, reports concerning the Fw 190A-1 main problems still were concentrated on engine overheating and fires. In all series planes' cockpit, oil tank and oil cooler armor became standard.

FOCKE-WULF 190 A-2

The Fw 190A-2 was the second series variant and was powered by the modified BMW 801C-2 engine. In this model, problems with the engine rear bank of cylinders overheating were finally solved by the simple introduction of a ventilation slot on the two sides of the engine cowling. The same slots were also introduced in the Fw 190A-1 in service. In place of wing mounted MG 17 machine guns, the Mauser MG 151/20 E 20 mm canons were used because of delivery of the new synchronizers. This replacement produced a small convex bulge of the upper armament covers in the wing roots. In place of the Revi C/120, a modern Revi C/12D gunsight was used. As a result of modifications, plane empty weight rose to 3850 kg. Important modification also included a new, more efficient, electrical gear retraction mechanism. The Fw 190Airframes, including version A-2, had under fuselage hard points for an ETC 501 bomb rack but there is no indication whether it was mounted in the A-2 version or not. One plane (W.Nr120315, CM+CN), was fitted experimentally with an automatic pilot device and was redesignated Fw 190A-2/U-1. In some sources there is information about a A-2/U-3 reconnaissance version. 420 Fw 190A-2 planes were produced.

http://i2.tinypic.com/x2qbnd.jpg

George Eller
05-02-2006, 09:37 PM
-

Very interesting information and beautiful work Panzerknacker.

I look forward to more updates.

-

Panzerknacker
05-02-2006, 10:02 PM
And you got it...¡

One of the first major aerial encounters in wich the FW-190A participate was the air battle wich followed the hurried "Channel Dash", that is the air cover for a Kriegmarine Battlegroup the 12th february 1942.

Focke-Wulf Fw 190 A-2
Stab, Jagdgeschwader 26
Coquelles, France
Early 1942

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/photos/profile_fw190_01.gif

An excellent account of that days encounters can be read in here.

http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/jg26/12feb42.htm


The Fleet Air Arm launched 6 Fairey Sworfish in an atemp to duplicate the succeses against The Italian Fleet in Tarento and the sinking of the Bismark. Instead of that the Strinbag were completely blasted by the Fw-190s and Flak, only 3 of his 18 man crew survived.

Fairey Swordfish Mk.I V4373
No.815 Sqn FAA

http://www.cbrnp.com/profiles/quarter2/fairey_swordfish/swordfish_camo-815-q.jpg


JG 26 Claims 12 February 1942

http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/jg26/12feb42claims.gif

Panzerknacker
05-04-2006, 07:42 PM
FOCKE-WULF 190 A-3

Beginning in the spring of 1942, series production of a more powerful engine version BMW 801D-2 that replaced previous versions in the Fw 190Fighter created a new plane version designated as Fw 190A-3. The increase in the BMW 801D-2 engine power (to 1730 kW) was due to a higher compression ratio and higher pressure two-speed compressor. A higher compression ratio and charging pressure made it necessary to use high-octane (96 octane) C3 fuel in place of B4 (87 octane) fuel. Armament of standard Fw 190A-3 planes was the same as in the previous version.

Gun layout in the A-3. Far more heavy arrangement than Bf-109

http://f5.putfile.com/5/12320335327.jpg


A series airframes were widely used in a big development program with the aim of finding the optimum armament and equipment mix that made it possible to broaden the operational capabilities of the plane beyond fighter operations. The largest part of these modifications were in the form of Umrustbausatz kits, but some did not have special designations and can be recognized only from photographs. The total number of such modified planes is unknown. The best known are the Fw 190A-3 with an under-fuselage mounted bomb rack ETC 501 for carriage of 500 kg of bombs (1x500 kg, 2x250 kg or 4x50 kg on the ER4 adapter) or an external drop tank of 300 liters capacity for long range fighters. Some planes used only for fighter operations (without bomb racks) had a reduced armament by removal of wing mounted MG FF cannons, which was not reflected in a designation. Moreover, 72 Fw 190Aa-3 (a=auslandisch-foreign) planes were produced. These were exported to Turkey during October 1942 - March 1943. Most of them had the same armament as the A-1 version e.g. 1x4 MG 17 machine guns and 2x1 MG FF cannon, and for obvious reason there was no FuG 25 IFF device in the radio equipment.

In addition to the previously described modification kits designed for the Fw 190A-3 and later versions other kits Umrustbausatz were prepared; but we must admit that most were unrealized projects or experimental planes that existed only in one or two copies: Fw 190A-3/U1 - only one built, experimental plane (W.Nr. 130270, PG+GY) with engine mount extended for 15 cm. It was used as a prototype of the A-5 version, Fw 190A-3/U2 - underwing mounted unguided missile RZ 65 73 mm racks tested on the plane W.Nr. 130386, Fw 190A-3/U3 - reconnaissance fighter with Rb 50/30 cameras mounted in the fuselage; armament reduced by removing MG FF cannons, one built, Fw 190A-3/U4 reconnaissance fighter with two Rb 12.5/7x9 cameras mounted in the fuselage and camera gun EK 16 or miniature camera Robot II in the leading edge of the left wing root; armament as in U3 version, additional under fuselage mounted ETC 501 bomb rack with stabilizer strips for 300 liter fuel tank.

Twelve planes built, Fw 190A-3/U7 - attempt to create a new high altitude fighter, with reduced weight, with armament consisting of only two MG 151/20 E cannons. Only three planes built (W.Nr. 130528, -530 and -531); they can be recognized by external charger air inlets on both engine cowling sides.

A-3/U-7

http://f5.putfile.com/5/12320415212.jpg

Panzerknacker
05-04-2006, 08:18 PM
Incidentally one A-3 was the first FW-190 to fall in the hands of the allies, a very valuable warprice because the air supremacy depicted by this fighter in the early-mid 1942.

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/4710/190a320pic0tv.jpg

Panzerknacker
05-11-2006, 07:44 PM
Interesting Comparative between the Fw-190A-4 and the early P-47D ( razorback)

http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/9568/pag17bm.jpg

http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/3950/pag20pl.jpg


http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/6328/pag36uk.jpg


http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9919/pag44zm.jpg

Sadly no nitrous oxide GM-1 boost sistem in the FW.

Panzerknacker
05-23-2006, 10:37 PM
Focke-Wulf Fw190A-5, flown by Emil 'Bully' Lang, 5./JG54. Eastern Front, May 1943, this day lang claimed a total of 18 victories in 3 sorties.

http://f5.putfile.com/5/14223362230.jpg

Panzerknacker
08-16-2006, 07:37 PM
Fw-190 ground strafing in the Western Front.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7268755420049018869&q=FW-190

Chevan
08-17-2006, 07:28 AM
And what do you think about TA-152H. Could it be compare with P-51 or something else?
And what's about duel FW-190 and La-7 (Lavochkin) in Eastern front?

Chevan
08-17-2006, 07:41 AM
http://f5.putfile.com/5/14223362230.jpg
Is this screenshot from the game (Microsoft combat fly sim or IL-2).
I watched same pictures in IL-2:Fogotten battles.
I prefer to fly on Me-109G6 or La-7. I dislike Fw-190.

Firefly
08-17-2006, 04:08 PM
Theres no doubt that the FW scored heavily on the Ostfront, outperforming any Soviet design.

Panzerknacker
08-17-2006, 07:08 PM
And what do you think about TA-152H. Could it be compare with P-51 or something else?
And what's about duel FW-190 and La-7 (Lavochkin) in Eastern front?

The Ta-152H was superior is almost avery aspect to the P-51D, maybe the only advantages of the mustang was the longer range, aniway the FW-Ta-152 carried heavier armament and it was more fast and maneouvrable at any altitude.

http://www.luchtoorlog.be/img/fw%20ta152/f167-4.jpg

The comparison Between the Fw-190A-7/8 with the La-7 is very very hard one because the similar caracteristics of both planes, I guess that the pilots and the tactical situation would decide who is the Bets.


Is this screenshot from the game (Microsoft combat fly sim or IL-2).
I watched same pictures in IL-2:Fogotten battles.
I prefer to fly on Me-109G6 or La-7. I dislike Fw-190

Actually is some 3d art from the british artist Jerry Boucher, I extracted from here.

http://www.the-vaw.com/html/gallery5.php

Chevan
08-18-2006, 01:30 AM
The Ta-152H was superior is almost avery aspect to the P-51D, maybe the only advantages of the mustang was the longer range, aniway the FW-Ta-152 carried heavier armament and it was more fast and maneouvrable at any altitude.

Yes , i think TA-152H was masterpiece of piston fighters. Max speed (it's seems 747 km/hour) and height ( 14 800 m) it was the best.
TA-152 could be good surprise for allied air armada.
http://www.airpages.ru/img/lw/ta152-1.gif
But it didn't play important role in war because it was made just 67 TA-152 of all modification.


The comparison Between the Fw-190A-7/8 with the La-7 is very very hard one because the similar caracteristics of both planes, I guess that the pilots and the tactical situation would decide who is the Bets.

Agree.

http://www.airpages.ru/img/ru/la-7.jpg
Vs
http://www.airpages.ru/img/lw/fw190a7-1.jpg
But i try to compare.
La-7 had more maneouvrable and more speed at altitude till 5 000 m , becouse more powerfull engine (1850 h.f) . But FW-190A-7/A-8 had nitrous oxide GM-1 boost sistem (upgrade power 1700 to 2100 h.f. for short time).
It let FW-190 to detach away from pursuit.
In Estern front pilot of FW-190 were seldom involved in maneouvrable battles against soviet La-5FN/7.
Fw-190A-7/8 had 2*20 mm guns and two 13 mm mashine-guns. La-7 had 3*20 mm guns.
Fw-190 had more range of altitude (11 400 m).
http://www.airpages.ru/img/fw190a8_1.jpg
captured Fw-190A-8.

Chevan
08-18-2006, 02:12 AM
Theres no doubt that the FW scored heavily on the Ostfront, outperforming any Soviet design.
True , if soviet pilots fly in lend lees shit like Harricane Mk.2/4

Panzerknacker
08-18-2006, 08:24 PM
Actually the gun layout in the FW-190A-7/8 was of 4 MG-151/20 plus the 13mm, alternatively it can use two 30 mm guns in the external emplacements. (R-2 kit)

And yes the La-7 was more aerobatic at low altitudes than the FW- anton, but not better than the Fw-190D variant.

Test of captured JG-54 FW-190.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qayREUJe65w

Panzerknacker
12-07-2006, 05:29 PM
Profiles of operative FW-190As.

http://i16.tinypic.com/2z4x1dt.jpg


http://i11.tinypic.com/3zs40ld.jpg

Chevan
12-07-2006, 11:40 PM
Profiles of operative FW-190As.

http://i16.tinypic.com/2z4x1dt.jpg


http://i11.tinypic.com/3zs40ld.jpg

Nice pictures stuff for modellers.:)
Mate are you real fan of german weaponry?

Panzerknacker
12-08-2006, 07:30 AM
Mate are you real fan of german weaponry?


Yes....I am. :D always interested in know more especially about aircraft armament and guns, in future I will open a topic about this subject.

More FW, night fighters and daylight defenders.

http://i13.tinypic.com/2iuxaaq.jpg

Panzerknacker
12-08-2006, 06:44 PM
FW-190 from Sturm staffels, this aircrafts were heavily armored for withstand the close-in defensive fire from the packed B-17 and B-24.

Look at the last one , the Willy Ungers plane, it had an 210 mm rocket launcher...Shooting rearwards ¡¡¡¡. :shock:

http://i12.tinypic.com/48h1r2e.jpg


extracted from "Luftwaffe Sturmstaffelns"-John Weal/Osprey publishing.

Panzerknacker
12-15-2006, 06:56 PM
Interior of the Fw-190a-8.

Panzerknacker
12-17-2006, 02:20 PM
Fw-190 A-0, note the mist produced from manouvering aircraft at low altitude.


http://aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/periodicals/int_air_power_review/winter_2001_2002/web_gallery/images/fw-190_0009.jpg



A well know picture of long range fighter bombers FW-109G in a polish base.

http://aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/periodicals/int_air_power_review/winter_2001_2002/web_gallery/images/fw-190_0001.jpg

Gen. Sandworm
12-17-2006, 03:43 PM
Fw-190 A-0, note the mist produced from manouvering aircraft at low altitude.


Not totally correct! Those are surely contrails from aircraft but the height is hard to say. As these can form at many altitudes.....normally high. It looks to me that these could be from a small dog fight or practice. (That might still be going on in this pic.) A few of them look very symmetric possibly indicating some twin engine planes. Anyhoo just another 2 cents on it.

More on Contrails

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrails#September_11.2C_2001_climate_impact_stud y

Panzerknacker
12-18-2006, 05:35 PM
You are correct, I mixed up the words "high" and "low" :evil:

At low altitude I have only see those in jet aircrafts flying at high angle of attack, in the wingtips you can this a kind of steamy fumes.

Panzerknacker
12-21-2006, 06:57 PM
The last victory in the East.

http://i16.tinypic.com/2rpsn0n.jpg


http://i12.tinypic.com/2a8lz6d.jpg



From Osprey s "FW-190 aces in the russian front".

Panzerknacker
01-05-2007, 06:27 PM
Some aditional pics of the High altitude fighter Fw-190A-3/U7. This variant was an atemp to increase the Fw-190A performance well over the 7000 meters . (when the supercharger became a litle clumsy)
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/1807/u7sy3.jpg

This aircraft had his outer wings MG-FF cannons deleted to save weight. The nose Mg-17s were deleted also and faired over.

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/595/u711vx0.jpg

The most obvious characteristic was the double venturi tipe air intakes, wich used the ram effect form the airscrew to improve the breathing of the BMW 801 engine.
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/2586/3yt1.jpg

About 3 or 4 of this variant were manufactured and used by the JG-26 in ealy 1943. It seems that there was also some A-4/u7 and A-5 /U7 but I am not have info about it.
All pictures extracted from: "Höhere jäger und Kampfflugzeuge" waffen arsenal.

VonWeyer
01-05-2007, 06:33 PM
I see that only 3 or 4 were built.
Do you know if they managed to increase the performance or not.

Panzerknacker
01-05-2007, 06:41 PM
It does but no much. There was also an A-5 variant with this system.

http://i12.tinypic.com/2d0cb6f.jpg

VonWeyer
01-05-2007, 06:46 PM
I like the colour scheme.
Well i suppose if only a couple were built that model could not have been very good and reliable.
Maybe it was also the costs in trying to sqeeze the performance out of it that was to much?

Panzerknacker
01-05-2007, 07:05 PM
Well i suppose if only a couple were built that model could not have been very good and reliable.



Probably it was reliable but the german have plans for replace if not all many Fw-190A variants with the High altitude fighter FW-190d or the Ta-152.

The kinky coluor scheme came from the older aircfrat ( a bf-109) that the pilot flew in the eastern Front. Hermann Graf 212 kills.

http://www.dhm.de/lemo/objekte/pict/96000798/index.jpg

VonWeyer
01-05-2007, 07:11 PM
Thanx for the info.
Do you know which german pilot had the most kills?(Hope not off topic)

Panzerknacker
01-05-2007, 07:31 PM
If you mean the most kills in Fw-190 it was Otto Kittel.

267 kills total, more than 200 kills with the FW-190.

http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Jagdflieger/Luftwaffe/KittelOtto/kittel5.jpg


http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Jagdflieger/Luftwaffe/KittelOtto/kittel_plane.gif

He served exclusively in the eastern front with the JG 54. He destroyed 90 Il-2 "ironclads".

VonWeyer
01-06-2007, 04:35 AM
A impresive record. Cheers.

Panzerknacker
01-07-2007, 01:24 PM
Fw-190 Sturm atacking B-17.

http://www.zippyvideos.com/5577489836499596/30mm_vs_b-17_187/

VonWeyer
01-07-2007, 02:09 PM
Cool clip thanx.
It is hard to say if the B17 is returning fire although the ball turret looks like it is facing it's guns toward the attacking Fw190. It also looks like the tail gunner has also been taken out.

Panzerknacker
01-18-2007, 08:30 PM
It could also a straggling aircraft wich was damadeg earlier.

The Fw-190s over the invation Front, June 1944.

by Don Caldwell

......By the spring of 1944 every member of the JG 26 Geschwader knew that an Allied invasion was imminent. The Allies were expected to come ashore somewhere on the coast of the Pas de Calais, which put JG 26 right on the firing line. The OKL had a long-standing plan to reinforce Luftflotte 3 with fighter units from Germany once the enemy landings began. JG 2 and JG 26 would provide the experienced nucleus for the 5th Jagddivision, which would command the "pure" fighter units under Genmaj. Werner Junck's Jagdkorps II. About half of the new Jagdgruppen would join Genlt. Alfred Buelowius's Fliegerkorps II, a ground attack command that had established a fully-staffed headquarters in France in advance of the invasion.

Priller

http://math.fce.vutbr.cz/safarik/ACES/aces1/obr1/germany_people_priller.jpg


......The Geschwader was far below its authorized strength in aircraft and pilots, but was in its best shape in months. Obstlt. Priller's Geschwaderstab and the First and Second Gruppen were equipped almost entirely with the Fw 190A-8. An improved Fw 190A-7, it would become the Fw 190 model built in the greatest numbers, 1334 eventually rolling off the production lines. The Fw 190A-8 retained the A-7's powerful armament of four wing-mounted MG 151s and two cowling-mounted MG 131s, although some examples had the outer wing cannon removed to save weight. It had a new radio with homing capabilities and a new 25 gallon fuel tank behind the cockpit. In the R4 variant this fuel tank was replaced by a nitrous oxide tank in a system called GM-1 boost, which increased top speed by as much as 36 mph at altitudes above 8000 meters (26,000 feet). The Fw 190A-8 had the same 1700 HP BMW 801D-2 engine that had powered the Fw 190A-3 in 1942, so the boost was necessary to remain competitive with improved Allied fighters. GM-1 raised the fighter's critical altitude from 5500 to 6300 meters (18,000 to 20,700 feet) at which height its maximum speed was 656 km/h (408 mph).

http://i11.tinypic.com/29e1ukg.gif

At low or medium altitudes the performance of this fighter was comparable to that of the four principal Allied types, and its pilots, even the new ones, had a great deal of confidence in their mount.
......The Third Gruppe was still flying its old Bf 109G-6 Beulen (boils), so named from the bulbous fairings covering the breeches of their cowling-mounted MG 131 machine guns. While still an effective dogfighter, the Bf 109 was showing its age, and lacked the speed necessary to initiate combat or escape from Allied fighters. An experienced pilot could use its ability to climb and turn to regain the advantage if caught by surprise; inexperienced pilots, who were the great majority, were easy targets.
......As the Allies completed their preparations for the invasion, the Germans still had no clue as to its date or location. Rain and mists covering France in early June led to a reduction in the Wehrmacht state of readiness. The First Gruppe kept up its routine of flying from its northern bases to Trier or Metz in the morning, and returning in the evening. The Second Gruppe continued training at Mont de Marsan. The Third Gruppe remained on Nancy-Essey, and was scrambled a few times. Contact was not sought with the enemy.


......On 4 June the Allied air forces kept up a blizzard of attacks on tactical objectives in France. In England, the assault craft had been loaded and were on their way to the Normandy beaches when an urgent message from SHAEF was received postponing the D-Day landings one day, from 5 June to 6 June, to take advantage of a predicted improvement in the weather. The convoys put back into port, still unobserved by the Luftwaffe.


......Jagdgeschwader 26 got word of the Normandy invasion via a telephone call to Obstlt. Priller at his Lille-Nord command post. Priller was told that JG 26 had been put under the command of the 5th Jagddivision, and that he should begin transferring his Gruppen to bases nearer to the beachhead area. Orders were quickly passed to the nearby First Gruppe and to the Third Gruppe at Nancy-Essey to get their operational fighters airborne and en route to the JG 2 airfields at Creil and Cormeilles. His staff was told to load their trucks and head south toward Poix. The First and Third Gruppe truck convoys were already on the road with those units' ground staffs, but were unfortunately headed in the wrong direction. The First was going to Reims in anticipation of a permanent base move; the Third was moving southeast to join its flying units at Nancy. Priller had fought the orders for these transfers into the French interior, but had lost. The convoys were located by radio and told to stop. Hptm. Naumann's Second Gruppe pilots had already taken off from Mont de Marsan and Biarritz at 0700 and had reached Vrox, where they awaited further orders. Beyond telling the Second Gruppe ground staff to pack up, Priller had no orders at the moment; the unexpected Allied landing site had upset all the Luftwaffe plans. Having done all he could, Priller and his wingman, Uffz. Heinz Wodarczyk, headed for their Focke-Wulfs, which as usual were parked just outside the command post. The first Luftwaffe response to the invasion was underway.

http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Histpres/Corrosion_Report/fig3a.jpg


to be continued....

Erich
02-05-2007, 10:58 AM
Unger was a friend of mine who was an extremely competent SturmFw pilot.

Yellow 17 and yes I have the photos was not his machine during May of 44. As he told me this was a series of propaganda shots and he was in the area and the cameramen had him get in the cockpit as well as sit on the wing and over the engine cowling for photos. He flew a yellow 17 later at least on 1 mission but it did not have the rear firing rocket launcher but the normal Zusatztank (fuel tank)

Erich
02-05-2007, 11:34 AM
I have copies of photos from Willi's photos album during the war, here is one he signed for me.... note the fighters "eyes"

Panzerknacker
02-05-2007, 05:58 PM
Yellow 17 and yes I have the photos was not his machine during May of 44. As he told me this was a series of propaganda shots and he was in the area and the cameramen had him get in the cockpit as well as sit on the wing and over the engine cowling for photos


One more about the rocket firing Fw-190.

http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/9492/willi20unger20fw190vj2.jpg

Erich
02-05-2007, 06:02 PM
this is one of the photos that I have that Willi signed for me. May 44, propaganda shot. His 12th staffel did use the rocket launcher with 0 success and in fact in Willi's own words the weapon was suicidal as it threw off the flying characteristics of the Fw 190 and they were made easy prey by P-51's. within the month of July 44 the weapon was altogether removed from the staffel

Erich
02-05-2007, 06:06 PM
from the same Sturmgruppe

10.Sturm/JG 3, W. Hagenah who later transferred into JG 7 flying the Me 262A-1a. shot down a P-=51 with his R4M rocket load in spring 1945

Erich
02-05-2007, 06:11 PM
big image

friend W. Reschke from JG 301 fame. Dang the guy is doing great and just heard from him 3 days ago. quite the pilot flying the ultimate piston job the Ta 152H-1 against the RAF and then Soviets

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v672/Sboot/pic019.jpg

Erich
02-05-2007, 06:14 PM
another pilot from Sturmgruppe JG 3 and led the unit in 1945 flying the Fw 190D-9

Oskar Romm

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v672/Sboot/OskarRomm-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v672/Sboot/OskarRomm.jpg

Panzerknacker
02-05-2007, 06:27 PM
Beautiful pics Erich.


His 12th staffel did use the rocket launcher with 0 success and in fact in Willi's own words the weapon was suicidal as it threw off the flying characteristics of the Fw 190 and they were made easy prey by P-51's. within the month of July 44 the weapon was altogether removed from the staffel

Are you sure about this ? I mean the rocket wasnt that big.

Erich
02-05-2007, 06:36 PM
yes Willi hated that thing, his full bio-story of his career is waiting to be published within 4 years I hope. the pilots as they passed through the Bomber Pulks would slow down just for a moment to set aim and at this time they were vulnerable to the higher alt. P-51 escorts, truthfully it was a scare tactic only which did not work. 6.Sturm/JG 300 also used the rocket launcher in September 44. evidently this unit didn't learn either

E ~

Panzerknacker
02-05-2007, 06:58 PM
So, if the later was truth this configuration should bring even more trouble.

http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~josephkennedy/images/Combat/fw190.jpg

Erich
02-05-2007, 08:12 PM
some truth more equalized under each wing, the Bf 109G and Fw 190A configs were not productive, the Bf 110G-2 and Me 410 A and B were another story as the ZG units built up taktics to attack heavy bomber formations not be singles but by Schwarms if not whole staffeln at a time. Mass was used for the greatest effect and then charge in through the chaos with heavy 2cm and 3cm cannon.

I remember interviewing Helmut Zittier about his missions flying the Bf 110G-2 with the four underwing Br 21cm rockets in ZG 26 .............. yikes what a mess, both the terrible effect it had on the US bombers and also being attacked shot down and wounded by US P-47's

E `

Erich
02-06-2007, 03:01 PM
Gentlemen:

I may have been one of the last to pose questions to this man before his death. one of the best pilots of the Reichsverteidigung as Staffelkapitän of 10.Sturm/JG 3. Flew Fw 190A-8/R2, Weiße 7.

he was quite helpful answering many questions : H. Weik

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v672/Sboot/Weik-Hans.jpg

Panzerknacker
02-06-2007, 05:17 PM
I saw some pics of Me-410 with even 6 x 210 mm rocket and 4 or 6 Mg-151, impressive.

But going to the FW-190 , a question , do you know this bagde in this FW-190A ?

http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/periodicals/int_air_power_review/winter_2001_2002/web_gallery/images/fw-190_0046.jpg

Erich
02-06-2007, 05:28 PM
Stab./JG 1 for the Fw 190. a rare badge actually not widely used

6 2cm on Me 410 was standard fit. 2 in lower nose, two in the nose and two more in a small waffen pod under the fuselage. also all 6 in the nose with the lower mount internally of 4 in a row. both variants used by ZG 26 and 76

Erich
02-06-2007, 05:30 PM
a little aviation art. Randy Wrights SturmFw image. II.Sturm/JG 4 Fw's Angriff von Hinten on a bomber pulk

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v672/Sboot/sturm_full.jpg

Panzerknacker
02-06-2007, 05:34 PM
Stab./JG 1 for the Fw 190. a rare badge actually not widely used

:D Danke, I saw this aircraft captioned as the Hans Phillip FW.

Erich
02-06-2007, 05:37 PM
it may have been in the Geschwader Stab, but I am not sure ....

another notable flying the Fw 190A-8/R8 in 5.Sturm/JG 300, Klaus Brettschneider and Konrad Bauer on the fuselage/wing. Röte 1

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v672/Sboot/Fw190ARote1.jpg

Panzerknacker
02-06-2007, 05:56 PM
Nice, Klaus Brettschneider was shot down by Mustangs right ?

http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/periodicals/int_air_power_review/winter_2001_2002/web_gallery/images/fw-190_0072.jpg

Erich
02-07-2007, 09:26 AM
do not remember at the moment will be covered at length in Lorants volume 2 JG 300 this spring. In December 44 all 3 types of US escorts were in the air over the Reich ...........

jungen Flieger as cannon fodder from I./JG 301 Herbst 1944

pic courtesy P. Rodeike

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v672/Sboot/luftpictwo.jpg

Panzerknacker
02-07-2007, 07:03 PM
Nice gallery. Here I found a footage of Fw-190 sturm commanded by the Walther Dahl. It seems to this a/c were returning from a combat mission.


http://www.wochenschau-archiv.de/kontrollklfenster.php?&PHPSESSID=&dmguid=08E92C0055BA58DF030103009D21A8C06A0A000000&inf=607040&outf=746240&funktion=play250k


And by the way i know that you have some strong opinions about Dahl s claims and literature :twisted: , if you could post some comment something in here. thanks.

Erich
02-08-2007, 11:37 AM
are you sure you want me to get started on this funny duck ? Personally his kills in III./JG 3 as Kommanduer are suspect as well as his Stab./JG 300 ones via his funny book he printed. There is no doubt that he was an able Kammandeur and pushed his men as they needed to be facing the overwhelming odds of 4-engines and Allied escorts, but to claim that "his" JG 300 faired the better and destroyed most of the B-24's on the Blitzschalacht über Oschersleben on 7-7-44 is utter nonsense. IV.Sturm/JG 3 was the instigator of that action and was ruthless in pursuit of the 492nd and other B-24 formations with JG 300 playing a lighter role. funny about that action is that after the 8th AF headed back to England the Italien based 15th AF bomber formations came into the general area south and were assaulted by the two SturmFw gruppen and JG 300 109G-6 plus ZG's Me 410 with rockets. Quite a killing day for both sides really, some 56 US bombers destroyed confirmed !
sorry a bit off the subject at hand http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v672/Sboot/XXjester.gif

Panzerknacker
02-08-2007, 05:15 PM
are you sure you want me to get started on this funny duck ? Personally his kills in III./JG 3 as Kommanduer are suspect as well as his Stab./JG 300 ones via his funny book he printed.



:rolleyes: Thanks for your comments, the book is really funny, what about his "battlecry" a word like "rabazanella" or something.

Aniway here a pic of a newspaper reporting on the Sturm pilots.

http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/5919/sturmerpq5.jpg

Torque
02-25-2007, 08:53 PM
Great information Panzerknacker, keep it coming!

BTW...I pity the men on the receiving end of the Fw190's tremendous firepower!

Panzerknacker
03-06-2007, 06:40 PM
Great information Panzerknacker, keep it coming!

Danke ¡¡.


Fw-190 G3.

http://www.luzinde.com/meisaku/zero/fw190g3.jpg

Panzerknacker
03-12-2007, 08:12 PM
FW-190 strafing allied forces in Normandy.


http://video.google.es/videoplay?docid=-7268755420049018869&q=guncam

Librarian
03-13-2007, 03:03 PM
Indeed magnificent exploratory work, honorable gentlemen. Please, proceed with this definitely fascinating and highly edifying employment. :)

In the meantime here is my humble factographic contribution: another scan of previously publicly unnoticed photograph that was erstwhile officially published some 60 years ago. Of course, this snapshot is most directly connected with FW 190 history and originates from famous German war-time magazine "Signal". Unfortunately, the concomitant text is completely non-descriptive, thus accurate identification of the Luftwaffe unit is – alas! – impossible. However, it is absolutely known that this photograph was taken back in 1943, and more than reticent text is mentioning flight-preparations prior to combat activity above the sea. All things considered… perhaps we are watching some pre-flight preparations of JG 26. :-?

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Startbereit-Fw190A-France1943-PKGen.jpg

Startbereit! – "Signal", U/Nr. 8-43, photo taken by PK Genzler

Panzerknacker
03-13-2007, 05:16 PM
Nice picture, is funny the diferences in wardrobe. :D


http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/JG_Meyer/FW190JG542.jpg

Librarian
03-14-2007, 05:54 PM
Yes, I do agree with you, my dear Mr. Pnzerknacker. It seems to me that sunbathing was some kind of a… very popular activity among German soldiers in WW II. Of course, there are some other, more formal color photographs about flight preparations of the Luftwaffe, but unfortunately they are not connected with FW 190.

In the meantime I shall present those accompanying photographs that were included in that bulky, but uninformative article about the Jagdflieger pre-flight preparations. All inscriptions are direct translations of the original citations inside the previously mentioned article.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/FW190Pilotscompass.jpg

"The chronograph watch is an essential component of any fighter pilot’s equipment, but Armbandkompass (wrist-compass) is even more indispensable!"


http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/FW190Pilotsflarepistol.jpg

"Flare pistol is also a required piece of equipment, and it is carried in the fitted holster in 'channel trousers' together with 10 red and white flares, as well as with two smoke-cartridges, and is secured by a rope lanyard."

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/FW190Pilotssurvivalpackage.jpg

"A water-proof tin of Scho-Ka-Kola 'Fliegerschokolade' (pilot’s-chocolate) completes the flyer’s equipment. It is an essential survival-requisite in a crash-landing case."

(Believe it or not, honorable ladies and gentlemen, but that sweet, high-caffeine content nicety still exists today and is produced by Stollwerk AG Köln)

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/FW190Pilotsoxy-mask.jpg

"Finally, fighter pilot's Netzkopfhaube (flying helmet), fitted with (Mi4b) microphones as well as with (Auer) oxygen mask and flying goggles completes the obligatory equipment for today’s aerial battles, which are commonly carried out above 7000 meters."


Well, that’s all for today. I think that very soon I will be able to post some new factographic material in our previous thread about the Ju 87 Stuka dive-bomber. Till then – all the best!

Panzerknacker
03-14-2007, 06:25 PM
Beautiful scans Librarian, I am always puzzled by the large amount of flares the some german pilots carried in his mission, check this drawing of a FW pilot in 1942 and note circular magazine in hins anklet.

http://worldwar2.free.fr/uniforme73.jpg


Believe it or not, honorable ladies and gentlemen, but that sweet, high-caffeine content nicety still exists today and is produced by Stollwerk AG Köln

I guess tha the content of cocoa wasnt much in that wartimes.

Librarian
03-16-2007, 02:27 PM
Thank you, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker. Main reason for that previous post of mine was factual absence of personal equipment oriented factographic material.

On the other hand that question about factual cocoa content in that Scho-ka-kola delicacy is hardly definitely answerable. Factual pre WW2 cocoa-bean stocks in Germany are still unknown, as well as those captured lots in occupied countries, especially those in Holland. Furthermore, there is still not so well explored case of German blockade runner consignments, not even to mention those Hilfskreuzer (auxiliary cruisers) achievements that were capable to provide (at least temporarily, mainly before 1942) purveyance of some really scarce natural materials. Some successfully captured allied liners (for example SS Spaybank, a 5.154-ton British freighter) were loaded with highly scarce material, namely with a cargo of manganese ore, carpets, tea (first grade natural source of caffeine!) and shellac. Of course, precise and detailed cargo lists are still missing, therefore absolutely clear-cut evaluation is – unfortunately – impossible.

On the other hand, it has to be emphasized that back there in late thirties German chemists were the champions of organic synthesis, and from strictly technological point of view there was a real possibility for a wholly different chocolate production course, that – if truth is to be said - has never been officially pursued in the peacetime.

Basicly, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker, chocolate is only a solidified complex mix of chocolate liquor, sugar, hydrogenated vegetable oil and milk solids, as well as some emulsifiers, like lecithin. However, such a product is not strictly obliged to contain factual cocoa solids (just remember even today popular white chocolate!). Completely edible and highly nutritive "chocolate" is producible by exclusion of natural cocoa liquor via substitution of previously mentioned ingredient with different forms of highly emulsified and enriched caramel, enhanced with some emulsifying natural ingredients (alginic acid + fucoidin), as well as with some artificial colorants and flavoring agents (ethyl vanilline + benzene acetaldehyde, Alpha-[3-Methylbutylidene]).

Bearing on mind scientifically proven fact that our mostly Scho-ka-kola highlighted substance - 1,3,7-Trimetilxantin - (read: Caffeine), as well as 3,7-Dimetilxantin (read: Theobromine) was successfully synthesized by German chemist E. Fischer back there in 1895, I am really unable to see any technological obstacle for implementation of highly synthetic, semi-organic based production of war-time chocolate. After all, German war-time ice-cream has been reportedly produced in a similar way…

Of course, all this is nothing more than a purely speculative theoretical excursion.:)

BTW - for additional, quite reliable information about highly interesting, non-standard, completely abundant, and still insufficiently used natural nutrient and chemical industry resources, please consult the following resource:

T. S. Douglas, "The Wealth of Sea", John Gifford Limited, London, 1946.

I have to confess that I was highly impressed with information presented on page 107 that German engineers intended to use in 1944 seaweeds Ascophyllum Nodosum and Chondrus Crispus to produce Hexanitromannitol! Just imagine a new generation of Panzerblitz rockets filled with that stuff…

And now back to hard historiographic facts. As you know, BMW 801 is essential part of the FW 190 story. So here you have not very well known picture of BMW 801 production line. I think that I will be able to provide some additional material connected with this issue.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/BMW801AssemblyLine.jpg

In the meantime – all the best!

Panzerknacker
03-16-2007, 05:41 PM
Very nice information Librarian, I like your "Chocolate analisis" :D

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/9325/dibujorn4.jpg

Sherman man
03-20-2007, 07:24 PM
FW-190s are the best 1 of my fav planes

Librarian
03-24-2007, 05:12 PM
Oh, thank you, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker. That tiny essay was only a cerebral amusement. However, subsequent treatise hopefully will be a piece of usable information for all our FW 190 enthusiasts. So – here we go…

As previously promised, honorable ladies and gentlemen, I was able to find some new elements connected with the B.M.W. 801 story. I hope that presented information will be useful for all WW2 airplane devotees.

It is generally known that the construction of the BMW 801 engine has started in 1938 under the direction of capable and experienced engineer Duckstein. The first experimental engine was ready for testing in April of 1939, and official approval for the beginning of serialized production has arrived in December, although the engine was not yet completely developed. From the middle of 1940 the first standard-built serial engines were delivered to the aircraft industry.

Although the matchmarks of the BMW 801 construction-range are reaching almost the whole alphabet, from 22 construction patterns only 11 were actually produced, 4 have remained in a stadium of a strictly experimental engine, and 7 amongst them only existed as blueprints.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/BMW801-3.jpg

BMW 801 – lateral view

The BMW 801 was a 14-cylinder, air-cooled, 2-row radial, mechanically supercharged gasoline engine, equipped with a direct fuel injection system, and also fitted with a high-geared (0.542 : 1) cooling fan in front of the cylinder banks. The engine featured silumin-alloy cylinder heads, 1 intake valve and 1 exhaust valve per cylinder (both sodium-cooled and actuated by push-rods), equipped with a gear-driven 2-speed supercharger with automatic variable boost pressure regulator.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/BMW801-1.jpg

BMW 801 – rear-view

To the end of the war more then 21000 different versions of BMW 801 engines were produced, and one indeed very interesting advancement and a specific characteristic deserves a special attention. It is quite unknown that RLM has demanded so called "encapsulated" delivery of completely assembled airplane powerplants, starting from 1942 on. Consequently, an engine unit (Motorenanlage) actually consisted of the very motor, outfitted with all auxiliary devices - the cooling fan with guiding plates, the exhaust, all seals and the aerodynamic cowling of the engine, as well as with all conductors and joints. Only still missing, manually afterward added components of the engine, were the exhaust system, as well as the controls and fixture assemblage.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/BMW801-2.jpg

BMW 801 – Motorenanlage (completed engine-unit)


Another extraordinary characteristic of this engine was the control unit (Kommandogerät). The illustration of the glowing necessity for installation of this piece of equipment was described by these words: "What a pilot will be able to produce if he has to adjust all motor-functions individually, in addition, within an multi-engine machine, and especially if he is suddenly enforced to stop the operation of one unit. The only answer can be: an error!"

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/BMW801kommandogeraet.jpg

BMW 801 Kommandogerät

Scheme overtaken from the www.focke-wulf190.com

With this control unit (sort of a mechanical computer, more precisely a mechanical multi-function integrator) the following functions were steered at the same time with only one, single lever: Load pressure control, automatically connected with and completely dependable by number of motor revolutions; regulation of gasoline-air mixture; ignition, loader drive-gear; dive-release function; fuel pump pressure regulation; starter-assistance and the propeller pitch.

To be continued…

Panzerknacker
03-30-2007, 09:21 PM
The Kommando Gerat must be one of the best gadget ever aplied to a ww2 aircraft, it relieve the work of the pilot in a great level. Just flew and combat, no need of manually changes in mixture , proppeler pitch, etc.

A very rare pic, Erwin Rommel taking close look to a Fw-190A-8 of JG26 owned by Pips Priller, the pilot who strafed Juno Beach in June 6th, this ace will achieved his 100th victory ( a B-24) in the days after the allied landings.


http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/3698/52259699wb0.jpg

ww2admin
03-30-2007, 10:05 PM
I always thought Rommel was a pilot at heart. He often would talk about wishing to fly. After all, he had his own Fisler Storch.

FW-190 Pilot
03-31-2007, 04:24 AM
I always thought Rommel was a pilot at heart. He often would talk about wishing to fly. After all, he had his own Fisler Storch.
really? at what age did he became a pilot?

Panzerknacker
03-31-2007, 09:36 AM
I am not sure if he had formal training as a pilot, I think not.

http://www.pierce-evans.org/fw190.jpg

Librarian
03-31-2007, 06:58 PM
Indeed excellent snapshot, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker! I really do appreciate your constant efforts toward factographic originality. Your devotion is truly inspirable, so keep up the good work!:D

And yes – I completely do agree with you. That device was not only capable to disencumber that poor aviator in a chaotic and frequently dangerous situations, but even to achieve significant improvement in the tractive quality of the engine, and thermodynamic efficiency of a Otto-cycle motor by successful inauguration of surplus-air combustion and the elimination of throttling losses as well.

You know, when I call to my mind this almost unbelievable fact that direct-injection Otto-cycle engines were completely available back there in mid-thirties, some kind of a eerie feeling is starting to beset me… :(



…After all, he had his own Fisler Storch.


Oh yes, he had – but it seems to me that his intrinsic affection was somehow shared with another famous airplane types. Yes, I know that this statement of mine is a little bit strange, but… Could you guess who this rearward-facing JU 87 gunner / radio operator is?

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/RommelJu87-1942.jpg

Erwin Rommel, preparations for flight in the Ju 87 Stuka – November, 1942

This is the only original photo I was able to find, but who knows – perhaps someone else will be able to find another factographic rarity. As we all know, honorable ladies and gentlemen, approx.70% of the entire graphic material already deposited in archives, libraries and museums worldwide still is undigitalized.

I am still collecting those sorrowfully dispersed pictures about BMW 801, but I think that very soon I will be able to post here something about that specific theme.

In the meantime – all the best! :)

ww2admin
03-31-2007, 09:09 PM
Great pic!

As posted before, here are two photos taken by Rommel:

1.) http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=547&d=1173655643

This is his personal Storch.

2.) http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=548&d=1173655643

Rommel either took this picture himself or that is him sitting in the back. I can't confirm, but Rommel was involved with this photo somehow.

Panzerknacker
04-01-2007, 02:38 PM
Indeed excellent snapshot, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker! I really do appreciate your constant efforts toward factographic originality. Your devotion is truly inspirable, so keep up the good work


:) No worries, very nice picture the yours, I wonder how was Rommel behind a pair of MG 81s.


You know, when I call to my mind this almost unbelievable fact that direct-injection Otto-cycle engines were completely available back there in mid-thirties, some kind of a eerie feeling is starting to beset me…

But I think only in the post war years the injection system were aplied to autos/cars.


FW-190A-4 with SD 500 semi armor piercing bomb, this aircraft took part in a large 150 aircraft daylight raid agaist the city of Canterbury in 31th october 1942. In this same mission Paul Galland, younger brother of Adolf was killed in action.

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/2719/fwcazabombarderoda9.jpg

Detail of the Splitterbombe ****wand 500

http://www.histavia21.net/amaviapag/images/SD500A-001.jpg

redalb2253
04-02-2007, 09:20 AM
The Dora is my fav 190 sleek lines.

Splinter54
04-08-2007, 07:23 AM
I can´t understand anything he says, but the video is very nice!:D
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qayREUJe65w&mode=related&search=

Panzerknacker
04-08-2007, 04:15 PM
Nice video, the russians had none comparable to the FW-190 in those times.:cool:

The comentator is probably describing his characteristics.

Panzerknacker
05-07-2007, 10:04 PM
FW-190G, long range escort and fighter bomber.


http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/3037/60789571ab6.jpg


http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/3810/17109449gc3.jpg


http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/7997/97252335ev6.jpg


Source: The History of German Aviation: Kurt Tank-Focke Wulf's Designer and Test Pilot/ wolfgang Wagner/Schiffer military.

Panzerknacker
08-13-2007, 07:30 AM
Fw-190 Sturm attack:

The following account of a Sturm attack was written by Oblt Hans-Martin Markhoff, Staffelkapitän of 8./JG 4 in September 1944 and describes an attack on B-24s of the 445th BG over Kassel on 27 September 1944.

By the time Markhoff volunteered for home defense duties during mid-1944 he was an experienced fighter pilot, having flown many sorties on the Russian Front as wingman to one of JG 52's greatest aces, Günther Rall.

Charged with screening the Kommandeur of III./JG 52, Markhoff's chances of achieving victories in aerial combat were few and having witnessed a bombardment of Berlin while on leave in late 1943 he decided that his duty lay in defending his fellow citizens back home in Germany. He volunteered to be a Sturm (assault) pilot.

Post war he trained as an architect but never told his family of his war record. It wasn't until the late 70's, just a few years before his death, that he told his teenage son about his career in the Jagdwaffe. Like his son, Markhoff himself wore his hair long and was a big fan of the Rolling Stones. One of his final letters contained a poignant footnote; " If you publish these accounts please convey to the reader that such events must never again be allowed to take place. I'm not proud of my successes and what I did during the war. We all of us merely reacted to the pressures of those times. Today I wish that they'd never occurred.."


"..We closed on the four engined bombers with total disregard for the stiff defensive fire they were putting up.. Tracer was flying around our ears but there was only one thought in my mind ..I must shoot down another heavy bomber..the bomber's defensive fire was broken through recklessly..only after the four engines filled the target circle of the sight did we open fire.." A Fw 190 Sturmbock bores in on a B-24 Liberator from the rear. Hunkered down in his cockpit the pilot opens fire from 100 metres aiming for the inboard engine. In this sequence the 190 has approached from slightly above on the starboard side

http://members.aol.com/kaczmarek190/sturmangriff2.jpg

" When we made our final attack we approached from slightly above , then dove and opened fire ..A miss of the giant monster was almost impossible at this distance. I could clearly recognise the faces of the gunners in their firing positions..." Hits from the 30 mm cannon flare..
http://members.aol.com/kaczmarek190/sturmangriff5.jpg

"...As usual the 3 cm cannon were remarkably effective and wrought terrible destruction. Everything happened so quickly, my shells pumped into the bomber's wing-root and I could see a bright sheet of flame as it leapt from the huge fuselage.."
The 3cm explosive rounds continue to strike home; the awesome destruction accounts for the tail gunner...

http://members.aol.com/kaczmarek190/sturmangriff4.jpg


Breaking off just in time to avoid colliding with the target Markhoff flies through a hail of fragments "..pieces of debris were whirling around my ears in the slipstream. Part of the bomber's tail fin came away. I took avoiding action and dove under the huge machine.."

http://members.aol.com/kaczmarek190/sturmangriff6.jpg

With less than two seconds to unleash a salvo of explosive rounds, the Fw 190 peels away, diving down under the looming bulk of the bomber. The bomber's starboard wing is envelopped in a huge ball of fire and smoke.

" We flashed through the formation all guns blazing..emerging from the bomber stream we attempted to reform for a second pass but today, as more often than not, this was impossible..we could hear the cries in the earphones alerting us to the presence of enemy fighters..it was then every man for himself as we attempted to reach an aerodrome and put down. That day as I came in to Salzwedel I realized that I'd got problems with my landing gear and elected to put the machine down on its belly. Those machines from my Gruppe that had landed ahead of me were almost all displaying signs of damage..

" ... . I had my victory and as it later turned out some wonderful shots on the gun camera. I'd got to within 18 metres of the bomber. Needless to say this film was to appear on the Wochenschau in German cinemas.. .but more than half our Fw 190s were missing.. 7. Staffel was particularly hard hit. Having already been reinforced with 6. and 8. Staffel pilots, the Staffel now lost its Kapitän, Oblt. Zehart who was reported missing near Braunschweig.."


http://members.aol.com/kaczmarek190/pauke.html

Panzerknacker
04-16-2008, 07:43 PM
Fw 190 of I./JG 1

http://img264.echo.cx/img264/3539/fw4rr.jpg


Fritz Losigkeit's bird when he was Gruppenkommandeur of I./JG 1 in the spring of 1943 although am not too sure of the black white stripes this early in 1943 on the cowling. the flags in the A-5 have been seen photographically on his other machines and they indicated the Allied nations that he fought against.

Fritz was a Ritterkreuzträger and made it through the war and died just several years ago. 750 missions, 68 kills, 13 of these being on the western front.

Panzerknacker
04-17-2008, 09:10 AM
Tough bastard: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_eek.gif

Chief mechanic Unteroffizier Rommer inspect "his" FW-190A-4 wich returned from ops in Severkaya in mid- 1943, with 2 cilinders heads shot away in the radial BMW engine.
despite the cronic damage to the powerplant, the pilot returned safely and make a perfect "three point landing".

http://img280.echo.cx/img280/769/2126gm.jpg


From: "Fw-190 aces of eastern Front" - Osprey Aircraft of the Aces series.

Clave
04-30-2008, 05:54 PM
My set of 190s:

Focke-Wulf Fw 190 A-4 -1/JG54 1942

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/focke_wulf_fw190/Fw190A4_1_JG54.png

Focke-Wulf Fw 190 A-4 -2/JG2 1942

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/focke_wulf_fw190/Fw190A4_2_JG2.png

Focke-Wulf Fw 190 A-4 - 6/JG2 1943

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/focke_wulf_fw190/Fw190A4_6_JG2.png

Focke-Wulf Fw 190 A-4 - 9/JG2 1943

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/focke_wulf_fw190/Fw190A4_9_JG2.png

Focke-Wulf Fw 190 A-8 - 2/JG4 1944

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/focke_wulf_fw190/Fw190A8_R2_2_JG4.png

Focke-Wulf Fw 190 A9 - 2/JG301 1945

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/focke_wulf_fw190/Fw190A9_2_JG301.png

Focke-Wulf Fw 190 A9 - 3/JG5 1945

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/focke_wulf_fw190/Fw190A9_3_JG5.png

Panzerknacker
04-30-2008, 05:58 PM
Again is massive work, thanks for posting .

By the way I recognize Nowotny and Rudoffer A/Cs



Focke-Wulf Fw 190 A-4 - 9/JG2 1943



Is this Wurmhellers ?

ww2admin
04-30-2008, 08:25 PM
Those are fantastic, Clave! If you ever want to post some on the homepage, let me know and I'll get you all the publicity you need;)

Clave
05-01-2008, 07:19 AM
Much appreciated :)

Oh, and I don't know the pilots I'm afraid - my researches never went that deep...:(

Panzerknacker
05-02-2008, 09:18 AM
Well definately it looks like the FW 190 flown by that ace, specially by the "60" kills figure in the tail, check this:

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto/wurmhe4.jpg

Wurmheller achieved nearly 100 victories in the West, a remarkable number even for german standars.

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/wurmhe/wurmhe.htm

david linander
08-22-2008, 12:52 AM
[QUOTE=Panzerknacker;90978]Fw-190 A-0, note the mist produced from manouvering aircraft at low altitude.


Hello! :D

in that picture i dont think its planes at all,,,

1: the "fog / mist" woldent stay that long from a prop plane, i wuld by it if there where less rings.

2: why wold they fly round and round that much if it was training? ( not logical )

3: what i think have happend on this picture is that someone have used a pen and skratch the picture from a paper on top of the picture ore directly on it, ;)

i dont know if someboddy alredy have menchend this becuse ive hadent red the hole thread, so sory if i afended enyone, only a frendly disscution . :D

have a nice day to you all..

ps: i just finished my F-W 190 R/C plane at this moment thats why i stumbled on this forum :D

Greatings from Sweden!!!!

Kent
08-22-2008, 06:42 PM
Hello,
This is a very impressive forum, particularly in regards to the Fw190, for which I have had a technical and historical facination for over the last 50+ years. In a previous life I made a living primarily as a military and civilian aircraft mechanic and product support engineer. Presently, I'm revisting a boyhood hobby; aircraft modelling. My favorite subject? The Fw190. BTW, I have been trying, unsuccessfully so far, to locate a US source for Fw190 kits produced by R.V. Resin (CZ). Can anyone help?
Thanks, and keep up the good work.

Panzerknacker
08-24-2008, 09:05 PM
in that picture i dont think its planes at all,,,

1: the "fog / mist" woldent stay that long from a prop plane, i wuld by it if there where less rings.

2: why wold they fly round and round that much if it was training? ( not logical )


I think is a propaganda picture, thing that I was not aware at the time of that post.



Hello,
This is a very impressive forum, particularly in regards to the Fw190


Thanks you.

Randy
10-07-2008, 05:07 AM
[QUOTE=Panzerknacker;90978]Fw-190 A-0, note the mist produced from manouvering aircraft at low altitude.


Hello! :D

in that picture i dont think its planes at all,,,

1: the "fog / mist" woldent stay that long from a prop plane, i wuld by it if there where less rings.

2: why wold they fly round and round that much if it was training? ( not logical )

3: what i think have happend on this picture is that someone have used a pen and skratch the picture from a paper on top of the picture ore directly on it, ;)

i dont know if someboddy alredy have menchend this becuse ive hadent red the hole thread, so sory if i afended enyone, only a frendly disscution . :D

have a nice day to you all..

ps: i just finished my F-W 190 R/C plane at this moment thats why i stumbled on this forum :D

Greatings from Sweden!!!!



I believe (HI, glad to meet everyone) the shot shows several four plane formations, probably a staffel or two. And I wouldn't necessarily describe it as "low altitude". Looks like a formation getting organized.

Panzerknacker
10-07-2008, 05:52 PM
No, no, is not high altitude, I made a mistake earlier.

Welcome by the way.

http://i33.tinypic.com/deoisx.jpg

falkeeins
12-31-2008, 08:06 AM
Fw-190 Sturm attack:

The following account of a Sturm attack was written by Oblt Hans-Martin Markhoff, Staffelkapitän of 8./JG 4 in September 1944 and describes an attack on B-24s of the 445th BG over Kassel on 27 September 1944.



....just so as we're clear here ....this extract was lifted from my web site and the credit 'translated by Neil Page' carefully removed .....

Panzerknacker
01-01-2009, 09:16 AM
Honestly I did knew that, i posted the link below my post, that page is down right, if you got a working link of your site it will be welcomed.

http://www.caf-swisswing.ch/images_news/FW190.jpg

Uyraell
02-09-2009, 09:56 AM
And what do you think about TA-152H. Could it be compare with P-51 or something else?
And what's about duel FW-190 and La-7 (Lavochkin) in Eastern front?

Hello Chevan,
You're talking of two different classes of aircraft, in your question.
Ta-152H was a High altitude fighter, 32,000 to 45,000 feet, say 10,000 to 15,000 metres.

The Lavochkin7 was medium altitude fighter, basically 15,000 to 30,000 feet, 5,000 to 10,000 metres. The Fw190 A8 (typical for the radial-engine series) was close enough in altitude terms to the La7. Those two fighters are pretty much an even match.

In short, expecting the Ta152-H to fight the La7 at the La7's altitude is a little unreasonable, though the Ta-152H would most likely win.

However, the Ta-152H has a cousin, the Ta-152C which is designed to fight at the same altitude as the La7 (and which, like the La7, was at times used in the air-to-ground attack role as well). Match the Ta-152C against an La7 (with pilots of equal ability and talent in each fighter) and you have one hell of a fine battle on your hands, because the merits of each aircraft make it an almost perfect match.

Which brings us to the P51. The P51 would put up a hell of a good fight (though in my view not as good as the La7) but would get shot down by the Ta-152H. Against the Ta-152C, the P51 would still lose the dogfight, but the Ta-152C pilot would have had to work a lot harder for the win than the Ta-152H pilot.

Regards, Uyraell.

Randy
02-10-2009, 09:53 PM
Wow - I disagree.

The Ta152C was a freakin tank (no pun intended - lol) the Germans themselves calling it a heavy fighter. it was at least 1100lbs heavier than the D9 without a corresponding power increase (an increase fully making up for the increase in weight). It had great speed and good climb so it could run from an La7 but that would be about it. It would have been good against bombers then in use. Against an La7 I would prefer a D9 or an H (the latter based on combat reports, I think it was Loos who said the H ruled the La's).

As far as the H goes, it made for a pretty good fighter at medium/low alts (where most of its known combats occurred). The wing which was designed to provide a lot of lift very efficiently at hi alt did the same at low alt (actually providing too much lift). Though this hurt speed at low alt (hi power helped mitigate the too-big wing's drag) the plane could turn EXTREMELY tight and could do it without a lot of speed loss. On the flip side, the long wing gave a very slow initial roll rate, although one pilot said it wasn't as bad as the P-38. Established roll was apparently acceptable.

Uyraell
02-10-2009, 10:32 PM
Wow - I disagree.

The Ta152C was a freakin tank (no pun intended - lol) the Germans themselves calling it a heavy fighter. it was at least 1100lbs heavier than the D9 without a corresponding power increase (an increase fully making up for the increase in weight). It had great speed and good climb so it could run from an La7 but that would be about it. It would have been good against bombers then in use. Against an La7 I would prefer a D9 or an H (the latter based on combat reports, I think it was Loos who said the H ruled the La's).

As far as the H goes, it made for a pretty good fighter at medium/low alts (where most of its known combats occurred). The wing which was designed to provide a lot of lift very efficiently at hi alt did the same at low alt (actually providing too much lift). Though this hurt speed at low alt (hi power helped mitigate the too-big wing's drag) the plane could turn EXTREMELY tight and could do it without a lot of speed loss. On the flip side, the long wing gave a very slow initial roll rate, although one pilot said it wasn't as bad as the P-38. Established roll was apparently acceptable.


Oddly enough, you've ended up supporting my points, not disagreeing.
The question I was answering didn't seek opinion regarding the D9.
Then again, if we're bringing D-series aircraft into the discussion, there's qualitatively damn all difference between a D11, D12, or D13 and a Ta152C, apart from the Jumo 213 A, E, E3a, or F series motors versus the DB 603L, L1, La1, La2, or La3 series motors.

(Side note: I do agree that while the Ta152C had been designed as a medium altitude "heavy" fighter it was also designed with the secondary role of Schlageter/Jagdbomber in mind, hence the armour on it, which accounts for at least 900lbs of the 1100 you mention.)

Now, if we're going down that road, then I'm inclined to view the Jumo "family" as superior to the DB 603 "family" but equaled by the DB605 "family" which to all intents was by that time a distinct "family" of engines itself.
What scant information I have seen regarding the Ta152H agrees with what you've put here, but again, the context of the question I was responding to places the Ta152H in a high altitude scenario.

Wherefore, I addressed the question in the context it was asked, rather than distort it by giving an answer in a context that was not sought. If that seems overly pedantic of me, giving such impression certainly was not my intention. My intent had been to answer each section of the question in the context each had been asked.

Regards, Uyraell.

Ivaylo
02-11-2009, 08:53 AM
One question do you think FW-190 was better than the BF-109 ?

Randy
02-11-2009, 12:06 PM
"And what do you think about TA-152H. Could it be compare with P-51 or something else?
And what's about duel FW-190 and La-7 (Lavochkin) in Eastern front?"


You are the one who introduced altitude, where is there an altitude "context" in the question? You are the one who introduced the Ta152C, I only tangentially introduced the D9 to counter your C. Secondary bombing role or not, the plane was still TOO heavy (wing loading) to take on an La7 in a classic dogfight. Gosh, where did the D11, D12 and D13 come from?

What the heck with the engine discussion? Where did this Jumo vs Daimler thing come from?
Regarding YOUR preference for the Jumo 213 over the DB603 (I like the 213E myself, I've touched two of them - I giggle at the variable inlet guide vanes :lol: ). . . The DB was Tank's choice for the ENTIRE 152 line, he fought very hard for them and only got them for the Cs because the H was out before the 603 was available. The Jumos were the (somewhat troublesome) backup choice for the H when the 603s fell behind schedule and the 603s were being considered for further H production (along with a fin enlarged for yet a third time) when they finally became available when full scale production of the 603 got under way (as if - lol).

(And the A8 vs La7 dogfight: The A8 would want to keep the fight between 4000 and 5000 meters where there isn't any appreciable difference in speed - both above and below that the La kicks speed butt and at all altitudes the La both out turns and out climbs the A8 handily. Both aircraft's performance dropped off drastically over 6000 meters so I wouldn't call them high altitude (8000 meters and up) fighters; and I wouldn't call it an even fight, but that's just me.)

Uyraell
02-12-2009, 02:04 AM
One question do you think FW-190 was better than the BF-109 ?

From My reading and research on the topic: Yes.
While the 109 was an admirable aircraft, with many virtues, my personal opinion is that the 190 outclassed it in general terms.

To expand a little: the 109 "family" basically ended up a "dead-end" in developmental terms, whereas, the 190 "family" was almost open-ended by comparison, in as much as the developmental aspect was far extended beyond that which the 109 "family" was likely to achieve.
In support of the above contention is the data from the testing of the 209II V5. Contrast that data with the extant data for the 190D9 and the point is clear.

Regards, Uyraell.

Uyraell
02-12-2009, 03:06 AM
"And what do you think about TA-152H. Could it be compare with P-51 or something else?
And what's about duel FW-190 and La-7 (Lavochkin) in Eastern front?"


You are the one who introduced altitude, where is there an altitude "context" in the question? You are the one who introduced the Ta152C, I only tangentially introduced the D9 to counter your C. Secondary bombing role or not, the plane was still TOO heavy (wing loading) to take on an La7 in a classic dogfight. Gosh, where did the D11, D12 and D13 come from?

What the heck with the engine discussion? Where did this Jumo vs Daimler thing come from?
Regarding YOUR preference for the Jumo 213 over the DB603 (I like the 213E myself, I've touched two of them - I giggle at the variable inlet guide vanes :lol: ). . . The DB was Tank's choice for the ENTIRE 152 line, he fought very hard for them and only got them for the Cs because the H was out before the 603 was available. The Jumos were the (somewhat troublesome) backup choice for the H when the 603s fell behind schedule and the 603s were being considered for further H production (along with a fin enlarged for yet a third time) when they finally became available when full scale production of the 603 got under way (as if - lol).

(And the A8 vs La7 dogfight: The A8 would want to keep the fight between 4000 and 5000 meters where there isn't any appreciable difference in speed - both above and below that the La kicks speed butt and at all altitudes the La both out turns and out climbs the A8 handily. Both aircraft's performance dropped off drastically over 6000 meters so I wouldn't call them high altitude (8000 meters and up) fighters; and I wouldn't call it an even fight, but that's just me.)

The DB 603 "family" had originally been Tank's choice for the FW190 B series, equipped with variously the TK11, TK13, TK15, TKL11 or TKL13 series of superchargers and subsequently abandoned as a direct result of the superlative qualities of the D9 Ao series.
It is at that point the DB 603 series becomes the motor of choice for the 152 "family" of 190 variants. In that much, I agree.

The Ta 152C is effectively a 190B minus the TK supercharger. I don't see much ground for dispute there. Yes, I do agree as to wing loading factors, however: personal opinions, as with hindsight, are subjective, no?
I Mentioned the D11, D12, D13 because I regard those as closer to the 152C than the D9. D10 is best regarded as an "oddity" imho, being that various versions were optimised for what in the 1960's came to be termed the "all weather" role, and other uncommon duties, hence why I omitted it.

Granted, the Jumo 213 is a personal preference, but then we go down the road of where each respective motor series was notionally developmentally heading: DB 603 family, DB 605 family, compared to Jumo 213 though 222 and 225 families.

As to altitude matters, the Ta 152 H was, despite its' abilities at medium and low altitude (and I don't disagree with you there) designed and optimised as a High altitude Fighter. Hence, the mention of it makes High altitude logically implicit. QED.

A8 vs La7 : broadly inclined to agree, though I suspect an expert/Ace in the A8 would have put up one hell of a fight.

At the end of the day, any and all of this discussion comes down to personal opinion. That which I have formed is largely from those who flew the aircraft concerned and published their experiences.
I, as anyone else, can only form my views from such records as I have read and digested, which process is itself entirely dependent on surviving records.

(Personal and entirely subjective opinion: I regard the Ta 152 H as the finest single engined propeller aircraft produced in World War Two. I'd love to own one, and would in fact be willing to recreate one in modern materials. I believe it would be a formidable aircraft even today, on technical merits alone.)

We are, any of us here on this forum, in parallel case, barring those who saw combat or used the multitude of equipment during the conflict this forum refers.

As such, I can, and shall, respect the views of another, even where I may personally disagree therewith.
Essentially, failure to do so risks descending into academic debate instead of recording known events and data.

Personally, I'd rather preserve the record, than conduct academic debate.

Respectful Regards, Uyraell.

Uyraell
02-12-2009, 11:56 PM
And now, to confound matters:
I have never regarded the Ta 152 C as an "ideal" fighter.
Of the Ta 152 variants, it is in fact the one I like least.
However, I do recognise it's qualities and merits, even while being aware of the detractions the aircraft had.

As said elsewhere in this thread: of the Ta 152 family, my overwhelming preference would be for the Ta 152 H.

Regards, Uyraell.

Randy
02-13-2009, 09:19 PM
Great thread! Uyreal, outstanding and insightful comments. I'm sure we agree more than not, and , of course, disagreements will remain just that.

On the 109 vs 190 comment: (I almost have to disqualify myself as impartial, I am a rare (freakin') expert on the 109 . . . I own a gas cap! lol) Though the "dead end development" (of the 109) opinion is a common one, and, to a degree, valid, I think it overstates the case. The D9 appears to have been a better performer below about 15000 ft (while out-rolling all at all altitudes) and the K4, while having poor roll at high speed, appears to have been better overall between 20000 ft and 25000 ft, losing out in speed to the H as altitude increases from there. The 152H could fly higher than its pilots wanted to and could out-turn anything at any altitude (but had to dodge bullets waiting for the roll-in to start) and handily out-performed the K above, say, 33000 ft. Performance of the K relative to these two 190 developments makes me think that 109 development question is, basically, a moot point. The 209 was, frankly, flawed as a concept and the 309, 409, 509, et al (lol) were just weird concepts. (It appears Willi was bitten by the TRICK* bug.)

Soooo, as it seems to have worked out, a new or moderately experienced pilot would almost certainly prefer the D9 (just a great combination of good flying/ground characteristics with only one dangerous one), a combat vet with good situational awareness would prefer the H (gotta watch out for ambushes, either keep up speed or be able to turn into) and a combat expert with lots of experience in the 109 would prefer the K (knowing one airplanes performance and quirks like the back of one's hand rather than learn a new plane to gain largely different rather than significantly better performance while one's life is at stake).

Hey (LOL), if the re-engined 190s count, Willi's guys had drawn up a twin jet powered aircraft using 109 parts, does that count? (The 152 was drawn up with jets AND a swept wing.)

But . . . yeah, going into late 1945 and 1946 the 190 had more developmental headroom than the 109 but even it (basically various 152s) would have had their hands full with the allied jets and the total lack of gas. (And I'll only bring up The Bomb to say I won't bring up The Bomb.)




Disclaimer: The above is not just the opinion of the author, it is his truth. :tank:


* Ultra cool gadget or gimmick.

Randy
02-13-2009, 10:56 PM
By the way . . . I made a pilgrimage to Silver Hill a few years back to pay my respects to the Ta152H there (WOW).

[The Smithsonian was told by the Air Force that it was 150003, then they figured it was 150010 CW+CJ (one of two development aircraft -150003 and 150010- with a wooden tail, which their example has) and now 150020. I'm not sure where the *20 comes from, I heard it was from a plate in the fuselage now missing but a friend of mine who works there (on the payroll, not a volunteer) says there never were any plates. Evidence (physical and photographic) is, to me anyway, overwhelming that it is *10.]

Awesome plane but crudely made. Workmanship varies between "OK" and "wasn't anybody looking?". The wood parts (tail with integrated plug, flaps and outboard gun bay doors (no guns) still have original layers of paint.

Uyraell
02-14-2009, 06:47 AM
Great thread! Uyraell, outstanding and insightful comments. I'm sure we agree more than not, and , of course, disagreements will remain just that.

On the 109 vs 190 comment: (I almost have to disqualify myself as impartial, I am a rare (freakin') expert on the 109 . . . I own a gas cap! lol) Though the "dead end development" (of the 109) opinion is a common one, and, to a degree, valid, I think it overstates the case. The D9 appears to have been a better performer below about 15000 ft (while out-rolling all at all altitudes) and the K4, while having poor roll at high speed, appears to have been better overall between 20000 ft and 25000 ft, losing out in speed to the H as altitude increases from there. The 152H could fly higher than its pilots wanted to and could out-turn anything at any altitude (but had to dodge bullets waiting for the roll-in to start) and handily out-performed the K above, say, 33000 ft. Performance of the K relative to these two 190 developments makes me think that 109 development question is, basically, a moot point. The 209 was, frankly, flawed as a concept and the 309, 409, 509, et al (lol) were just weird concepts. (It appears Willi was bitten by the TRICK* bug.)

Soooo, as it seems to have worked out, a new or moderately experienced pilot would almost certainly prefer the D9 (just a great combination of good flying/ground characteristics with only one dangerous one), a combat vet with good situational awareness would prefer the H (gotta watch out for ambushes, either keep up speed or be able to turn into) and a combat expert with lots of experience in the 109 would prefer the K (knowing one airplanes performance and quirks like the back of one's hand rather than learn a new plane to gain largely different rather than significantly better performance while one's life is at stake).

Hey (LOL), if the re-engined 190s count, Willi's guys had drawn up a twin jet powered aircraft using 109 parts, does that count? (The 152 was drawn up with jets AND a swept wing.)

But . . . yeah, going into late 1945 and 1946 the 190 had more developmental headroom than the 109 but even it (basically various 152s) would have had their hands full with the allied jets and the total lack of gas. (And I'll only bring up The Bomb to say I won't bring up The Bomb.)




Disclaimer: The above is not just the opinion of the author, it is his truth. :tank:


* Ultra cool gadget or gimmick.


By the way . . . I made a pilgrimage to Silver Hill a few years back to pay my respects to the Ta152H there (WOW).

[The Smithsonian was told by the Air Force that it was 150003, then they figured it was 150010 CW+CJ (one of two development aircraft -150003 and 150010- with a wooden tail, which their example has) and now 150020. I'm not sure where the *20 comes from, I heard it was from a plate in the fuselage now missing but a friend of mine who works there (on the payroll, not a volunteer) says there never were any plates. Evidence (physical and photographic) is, to me anyway, overwhelming that it is *10.]

Awesome plane but crudely made. Workmanship varies between "OK" and "wasn't anybody looking?". The wood parts (tail with integrated plug, flaps and outboard gun bay doors (no guns) still have original layers of paint.

Randy, Like you I suspect we have more "in common" than not.

The 109 jet variant was the 109TL (allegedly "Turbo-Luft"): a backbench backup in case the Me262 didn't pan out. {NB: There is a "Favourite 109 variant" thread here also.}
Though, slight aside for a moment: why bother with the 109TL when the He.280 was in existence, and in the C and D models eminently manufacturable, greatly capable of further development, and a damn good investment as replacing the Me.109.?

While I claim no great degree of 109 expertise, I was at one point asked to go an a nation-wide quiz-panel show in relation to it and other WW2 matters. I was 15 at the time, and told them to go to hell.

Not certain, off-hand, as to nomenclature of the 152 jet variant.

The Smithsonian Ta 152 H is, I think one of only 3 remaining, though it may by now be the only one (if memory serves adequately, there were 3 in My youth, one of which was thought to be in the then Soviet Union). I'd be keen to see the aircraft myself. You're a lucky man.:D

Incidentally, in my youth there was talk of the "last" 209II fuselage and mainplane leaning up against a fence in a California backyard, having been sold-off as a surplus 109 at junk prices in 1948 or so. For years, there has remained debate in various fora as to its' final fate.

I too have been enjoying this thread, and hope it long continues.

Regards, Uyraell.

Uyraell
02-16-2009, 02:04 PM
Indeed magnificent exploratory work, honorable gentlemen. Please, proceed with this definitely fascinating and highly edifying employment. :)

In the meantime here is my humble factographic contribution: another scan of previously publicly unnoticed photograph that was erstwhile officially published some 60 years ago. Of course, this snapshot is most directly connected with FW 190 history and originates from famous German war-time magazine "Signal". Unfortunately, the concomitant text is completely non-descriptive, thus accurate identification of the Luftwaffe unit is – alas! – impossible. However, it is absolutely known that this photograph was taken back in 1943, and more than reticent text is mentioning flight-preparations prior to combat activity above the sea. All things considered… perhaps we are watching some pre-flight preparations of JG 26. :-?

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Startbereit-Fw190A-France1943-PKGen.jpg

Startbereit! – "Signal", U/Nr. 8-43, photo taken by PK Genzler
I'm in agreement on JG26 .... but thinking on Galland's comments in "The First and the Last".... I suggest this is "Signal" recording as an "operational" flight JG26 doing an early "combat test" operational flight of an FW190 A3.
Looking at the propellor, and the panelling on the engine cowling, the flaps at about 12 degrees lowered, and the Revi 16A gunsight.... I'm thinking 190A3, early series.
I'd be interested in your thoughts on that, Librarian. :)

Very interesting thread, Panzerknacker.

Regards, Uyraell.

weinace
08-07-2009, 05:54 AM
it may have been in the Geschwader Stab, but I am not sure ....

another notable flying the Fw 190A-8/R8 in 5.Sturm/JG 300, Klaus Brettschneider and Konrad Bauer on the fuselage/wing. Röte 1

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v672/Sboot/Fw190ARote1.jpg

I am going to build this specific aircraft having bought Keith Ferris's print.
Is the cowling in front of the cockpit black, or just in shadow as it is vastly different from the print?!!
Regards and thanks:p

Panzerknacker
08-10-2009, 05:21 PM
There is a color profile of that particular aircraft in the book "FW-190 aces of the western Front" Osprey Aircraft of the aces series, not really sure how accurate the drawing is.

weinace
08-11-2009, 01:12 AM
Thanks VERY much for information - will find book. I have Keith Ferris's print of this 'plane, which is a stunner but has a few details wrong - luckily I'm not a anorak so had it framed anyway!!!
Regards,
weinace:p

Panzerknacker
08-14-2009, 10:55 PM
No worries. I have the book, If you cant find it, let me know so i could make a scan.

weinace
08-15-2009, 01:16 AM
Thanks for that.
If you could scan it in I'd appreciate it; all my books are in storage, my wife us to move 'to the country' and so she's "getting us ready"!!!!!
Regards,
weinace:p

falkeeins
08-15-2009, 08:36 AM
..forget the artwork in that book frankly ...

check this page out on hyperscale

http://hsfeatures.com/features04/fw190a8rauhbautzcw_1.htm

weinace
08-15-2009, 08:50 AM
Thanks VERY much for link.
What a most excellent build!
Seems the 1/48th. decals are OOP - so I'm going to write to Eagle Editions to see if they plan to issue with red script!!
Warm regards,
weinace:p

Panzerknacker
08-15-2009, 08:51 AM
Thanks for that.
If you could scan it in I'd appreciate it; all my books are in storage, my wife us to move 'to the country' and so she's "getting us ready"!!!!!



No problemo.


forget the artwork in that book frankly ...

check this page out on hyperscale


Nice model, I wont trown away the Osprey series so fast, perhaps they are basic in some aspects, I dont deny that, but they are succesful always in creating interes in a particular subject, of course, if you want to achieve a deeper research you may want to find another book, but for the guy who is not an "experten" in Luftwaffe I think generally speaking the Osprey publications are well worth for the money.

And having another profile to compare never hurts.:rolleyes:

weinace
08-15-2009, 09:17 AM
Take it from me I am NOT an 'Experten' - this is the first time in 42 years I have time to actually pursue a hobby!!!!!!!!
warm regards,
weinace:p

Panzerknacker
08-16-2009, 01:09 PM
Then you should purchase the book, the relation information-value, is very good.

here another site of an austrian artist with very well made profiles:

http://www.rlm.at/profil_e.htm
http://www.rlm.at/profil/14/Fw-190-A-9-Simon-Schatz.jpg

weinace
08-17-2009, 10:58 AM
Thanks Panzerknacker for ALL your information!
Will search out Austrian site.
Warm regards,
weinace:p

JP Vieira
06-27-2010, 07:15 AM
A very interesting thread. I am planning to do a series of prints of FW-190D-9 profiles. Thank you

burp
06-28-2010, 07:59 AM
But it's true the story about Kurt Tank that runs away from P51d with his unarmed Ta-152 prototype using engine boost system?

weinace
06-28-2010, 11:18 AM
Good news about the profiles.

Make sure you do a 'super detailed weathered' one of Heinz 'Negus' Marquardt's aircraft - he was top scorer in an Fw190D-9.

Looking forward to seeing profiles,

Regards,

weiance:)

JP Vieira
06-28-2010, 02:07 PM
Good news about the profiles.

Make sure you do a 'super detailed weathered' one of Heinz 'Negus' Marquardt's aircraft - he was top scorer in an Fw190D-9.

Looking forward to seeing profiles,

Regards,

weiance:)

Hello
Thank you for the tip: I was planning on doing other aces, but your's is a great suggestion. :)
Stay tunned for the prints.
Best regards

Uyraell
06-28-2010, 05:31 PM
But it's true the story about Kurt Tank that runs away from P51d with his unarmed Ta-152 prototype using engine boost system?

I've seen the story repeated in books so often over the years that I believe it. Granted, I have yet to see confirmation of some details from Tank himself, but the constancy with which this particular story turns up and is repeated leads me to think that in this case it is truthful.
Kind Regards burp, Uyraell.

burp
06-29-2010, 03:04 AM
I ask just because i found it in several books, but like you i never find an official document about it.

Uyraell
06-29-2010, 11:41 PM
I ask just because i found it in several books, but like you i never find an official document about it.
Quoting from one book in my possession: "The performance of the Ta 152 H-1 was such that it could escape any Allied fighter with ease, and Kurt Tank himself has related how easily he pulled away from a flight of P51D Mustangs that jumped him during a test flight."
The above is in "Famous Fighters of the Second World War", William Green, 7th Impression, 1960, MacDonalds publishers.

From another book of mine:"Tank himself easily outpaced a flight of P51D Mustangs which surprised him on a test flight, but only ten of the H sub-type had flown when the war ended."
"The Illustrated Directory of Fighting Aircraft of world War II", Bill Gunston, Salamander Books, 1988.

Taking note of the above, I'm inclined to believe the reported event as genuine.
While William Green's books have at times been criticised as the years have passed since they were published, he was noted as having researched his topics rather more thoroughly than many of his contemporaries. Historiographers may well debate Green's works, but my own view is that at the time they were published they were seminal, and even today may be relied-upon for all but the most very obscure of minor details.

Kind Regards burp, Uyraell.

Panzerknacker
06-30-2010, 05:53 PM
The Tanks History is true, it has been confirmed in several sources. The Ta-152 was an proposed solution against the B-29 wich supposedly was going to attack Germany in 1944, thing that you know never happen. As it was used, medium/low altitude anti-fighter anti-recce aircraft interceptor was in fact superior to many allied fighter, his specially designed wing gave it a tigh rate of turn and the MW 50 wather methanol injection an awesome acceleration capabilities.

burp
07-01-2010, 02:22 AM
The funny thing is that with MW 50 Ta-152 can use both MW 50 and GM-1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM-1), a precursor of nos implants of nowadays super car that you can see in film like Fast & Furios.

Uyraell
07-01-2010, 05:38 AM
PK, Thank you for the additional confirmation, :)
burp, I have long been intrigued by the MW50 and GM1 performance enhancement systems.
To my eyes, it seems unusual that more was not made of similar systems elsewhere, though I freely acknowledge the Allies had somewhat of a lead in supercharger technology, and that Germany was, by using the bottled systems, effectively making up for lost ground.
One of many small conundra the Second World War produced, as en inevitable byproduct of the conflict itself.

Kind Regards, Uyraell.

Panzerknacker
07-01-2010, 04:01 PM
The funny thing is that with MW 50 Ta-152 can use both MW 50 and GM-1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM-1), a precursor of nos implants of nowadays super car that you can see in film like Fast & Furios

Yes it is, the modern "NOS" =Nitrous Oxidizer System was no more no less that the GM-1 ( Göring meschung eins, Goering Mixture one). A good system but eventually droped because the corrotion induced in the engine was somewhat high.

The wather Methanol injection was pretty more safe and not only allowed more power but also cooled the supercharger inlets so it can operated far more time than GM-1 nearly 10 minutes.

Both system were developed for auxiliary high altitude power-up since ( as mr Urraell said ) the 2 or 3 stage german supercharges were a bit less efficient than english/allied ones and there were no turbosuperchargers available ( turbokompressorlader in german)

Randy
07-02-2010, 10:20 PM
Yes it is, the modern "NOS" =Nitrous Oxidizer System was no more no less that the GM-1 ( Göring meschung eins, Goering Mixture one). A good system but eventually droped because the corrotion induced in the engine was somewhat high.

The wather Methanol injection was pretty more safe and not only allowed more power but also cooled the supercharger inlets so it can operated far more time than GM-1 nearly 10 minutes.

Both system were developed for auxiliary high altitude power-up since ( as mr Urraell said ) the 2 or 3 stage german supercharges were a bit less efficient than english/allied ones and there were no turbosuperchargers available ( turbokompressorlader in german)



Actually - I would disagree with the idea that German compressors were somehow less efficient therefore requiring water injection. Being less efficient would mean that they required more power to drive, is all. Compressed air is compressed air and heats the same for a given compression/time factor. The issue really was fuel quality. Poor fuel is going to be more apt to detonate and thus require lower cylinder inlet temps than a higher quality/octane fuel (quality and octane both being factors but different things).

As far as Allied applications of such systems, water injection (this would be the equivalent of MW50) did achieve reasonably widespread use, mostly on radial engines. Other allied engines, the Merlin 66 and R2800-8 for examples, used intercoolers (air/glycol and air/air respectively) which did the job of water injection but were arguably lighter systems and unlimited in use - not speaking to boost limitations. Allied water injection systems used alcohol mixed with the water (sound familiar?) to prevent freezing at altitude (not necessary if it was expected the water would be consumed on takeoff and climb). MW50 or water injection (speaking of both sides) was typically used at lower altitudes where the supercharger (generic) could overboost the engine well past detonation. Once the altitude was achieved where detonation was no longer an issue water injection was no longer needed BUT a smaller improvement (because the supercharger was providing less boost) in performance was still possible due to charge cooling (something like 4%). At more extreme altitudes ambient temperatures were often so low to begin with that water injection became impractical (how many gallons of water do you want to haul to altitude - lol). At these altitudes nitrous oxide (which has twice as much oxygen as air AND can supply quite a bit more charge cooling in phase change - liquid to gas - than water) was used on a limited scale throughout the war on the German side, most notably late in the war on the Ta152H which also carried water for lower altitude use.

So - in a nutshell - the Allies typically used intercoolers in place of water injection and turbos (to augment the engine superchargers) in place of nitrous. (notable exception: P-47 - it used intercoolers AND water on later models)

:D

Randy
07-02-2010, 10:40 PM
Still thinking about the lack of turbos on the German side. Since the Germans had prototypical turbo installations in test, flying in some cases, on various aircraft I would guess that the exotic metals shortage forced them to put the priority on jet engine (giant self-contained turbo) production effectively killing the turbo program. No facts come to mind to back that up . . .

Even with prioritizing the jet engines the manufacturers were asked to reduce the exotic metals required by 100% (LOL), Junkers brought it down by 90%.

Uyraell
07-03-2010, 06:13 AM
Randy, you're in essence correct. Of note regarding the various TK and TKL installations in the FW190B series prototypes, are the serious issues regarding exhaust temperature, said exhaust gases being ducted to the turbocharger installation under pressure, yet the heat thereof eroding the piping and causing various metallurgical issues, requiring thus the development of intercoolers and the associated employment of rare metals and alloys. Wm Green refers "Warplanes of the Third Reich".

Kind and Respectful Regards Randy, Uyraell.

Panzerknacker
07-04-2010, 02:58 PM
As far as Allied applications of such systems, water injection (this would be the equivalent of MW50) did achieve reasonably widespread use, mostly on radial engines. Other allied engines, the Merlin 66 and R2800-8 for examples, used intercoolers (air/glycol and air/air respectively) which did the job of water injection but were arguably lighter systems and unlimited in use - not speaking to boost limitations. Allied water injection systems used alcohol mixed with the water (sound familiar?) to prevent freezing at altitude (not necessary if it was expected the water would be consumed on takeoff and climb). MW50 or water injection (speaking of both sides) was typically used at lower altitudes where the supercharger (generic) could overboost the engine well past detonation. Once the altitude was achieved where detonation was no longer an issue water injection was no longer needed BUT a smaller improvement (because the supercharger was providing less boost) in performance was still possible due to charge cooling (something like 4%). At more extreme altitudes ambient temperatures were often so low to begin with that water injection became impractical (how many gallons of water do you want to haul to altitude - lol). At these altitudes nitrous oxide (which has twice as much oxygen as air AND can supply quite a bit more charge cooling in phase change - liquid to gas - than water) was used on a limited scale throughout the war on the German side, most notably late in the war on the Ta152H which also carried water for lower altitude use
Now you mentioned I remeber that the high altitude recce Junkers Ju-86P and R did use GM-1 until late war. I suppose the thing you described of temperature at high altitudes was involved, also the junkers Jumo diesels in those types had a lesser operation temperature than petrol powered engines.

kurt
07-04-2010, 04:05 PM
Then you should purchase the book, the relation information-value, is very good.

here another site of an austrian artist with very well made profiles:

http://www.rlm.at/profil_e.htm
http://www.rlm.at/profil/14/Fw-190-A-9-Simon-Schatz.jpg

Beautiful warbird, In Cornelius Ryan`s book, The Longest Day, El dia mas largo in spanish, I read a story about Joseph "Pips" Priller an FW190 pilot, who alone with his wingman attacked the invasion fleet and according to that book, it was recognized as a dare and brave deed for the crew of an american destroyer, as I remember.

stano666
11-27-2010, 06:01 PM
i'll be reading a lot this weekend -LOL-, another lovely topic and great info, tanks many times to you all.
greetings stano666

stano666
11-28-2010, 08:05 AM
The engine cowling was not as good as expected and the engine still had a tendency to overheat. This problem was so severe that even during low powered flight cockpit temperature rose to 55*C. In addition, the cockpit was not properly sealed and exhaust gases had leaked into it

The tight layout of the 38 liter two row radial BMW 139 did not help either.
The problem continue until the FW technicians decided to move into the new BMW design , that is the BMW 801, even heavier an with 42,7 liter, that was a less problematic powerplant.

The last aircraft in use the BMW 139 was the V2, also the V2 introduced armament for the first time, 2 x13mm Mgs in the wing roots, and 2x 7,92 in the outer wing.

FW-190V2
http://aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/periodicals/int_air_power_review/winter_2001_2002/web_gallery/images/fw-190_0027.jpg

http://aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/periodicals/int_air_power_review/winter_2001_2002/web_gallery/images/fw-190_0029.jpg


- At somepoint (i think it was beween A2 / A3 variant) they moved the cockpit backwards some15cm (6") this resolved the extreme cockpit temperatures (together with t other things like t 10 blade spinner etc, but that's allready mentioned)
wikipedia is where i've found this btw.- And for the Ta152 (i love that one), there's one survivor of it in t u.s.a. (texas?, i think) greetings stano666

Ealdwita
11-28-2010, 12:14 PM
Only one example of any of the Ta 152 aircraft is known to exist, a long-winged Ta 152 H-1 of the former Luftwaffe Wilde Sau fighter wing, JG 301, at the National Air and Space Museum in Washington D.C., which is awaiting restoration. This aircraft is in reality a Ta 152H-0, and its Werknummer is open to debate, but it could either be 150020 or 150003 which is sometimes cited.

Randy
11-29-2010, 03:40 AM
Only one example of any of the Ta 152 aircraft is known to exist, a long-winged Ta 152 H-1 of the former Luftwaffe Wilde Sau fighter wing, JG 301, at the National Air and Space Museum in Washington D.C., which is awaiting restoration. This aircraft is in reality a Ta 152H-0, and its Werknummer is open to debate, but it could either be 150020 or 150003 which is sometimes cited.


Ah, yes ... the NASM Ta152. This aircraft, though awaiting complete restoration, has a wooden tail which was restored back in about 1999. There are only two 152s documented to have had the experimental wooden tails and they were 150003 (also tested a steel wing) and 150010. Delivery codes were CW+CC and CW+CJ respectively (150020 was most likely CW+CT). Careful examination of the left side in post war pics of the surviving 152 at Wright Field (with the British fin flash, incorrectly applied swastica and FE-112 on the fin) will show a green 4 (either original or refreshed but not likely post war originated - its not an American font - lol) right behind an overpainted J* as in CW+CJ (am I really the only one who can see this?). So, with the wooden tail that clinches it for me as the aircraft tag is long gone. I'd like to know who was behind the 150020 ID, I'd like to find out what pushes their conclusion that direction.

*Sometime after these shots were taken at Wright Field the metal portion of the airframe was stripped and repainted with the awful light gray/dark gray paint scheme we have today so we have no markings left to find.

Randy
11-29-2010, 05:37 AM
PS. After posting the above my head started hurting ... I wound up going through some archived email stuff from NASM (Tom Dietz - great guy) from around 2001 in which he was adamant a tag on a "radio" rack in the aft fuselage conclusively ID'd the plane as 020 and the delivery code (consequently) as CW+CT despite what might appear in photos. I cannot believe I forgot that. I'd like to see both the tag and the structure it's mounted on. I recall there was equal skepticism on both sides about each other's "evidence". (The "radio rack" would only have a tag if it was removable -like all other removable parts- as it would otherwise be covered by the -lost- aircraft tag.)

Now, concerning the moon landings ...


lol

stano666
11-29-2010, 09:17 AM
Tanks for this :)
Nasm has a wicked collection -just to name some: FW Ta152, FW 190D, BV 155, AR 234, the Shinden (push-pull), i wonder if they have Do335 too? i'll look straight away :) And the Ta152 they have, is a FW Ta152 h-1 began as a pre-production h-0 model right? I don't care that much btw (well not yet), it's just nice to know that (allmost) original examples of rare luftwaffe planes still exists, it's not an easy task to keep planes in good order especially when things like blueprints, toolings etc. is virtually non-existent.

- I'll have to practice my walk on water skills some more (the first step goes well so far, but from there on i sink) Groningen - Washington is only some 1000 KM's apart. Greetings stano666

Uyraell
12-01-2010, 10:27 PM
- At somepoint (i think it was beween A2 / A3 variant) they moved the cockpit backwards some15cm (6") this resolved the extreme cockpit temperatures (together with t other things like t 10 blade spinner etc, but that's allready mentioned)
wikipedia is where i've found this btw.- And for the Ta152 (i love that one), there's one survivor of it in t u.s.a. (texas?, i think) greetings stano666

The cockpit was moved rearwards when the BMW 801 replaced the BMW 139.
Doing so achieved two things: it answered the center of gravity issue occasioned by the use of the heavier BMW801 motor. It also solved the issue of engine heat and exhaust gasses penetrating the cockpit via the firewall inlet points for the gauge and engine controls.
As a result, the FW190 V 4 prototype was scrapped uncompleted, and both the V5k and V5g
prototypes were completed using the BMW801 engine, with the "k" -"kleiner" distinguishing the smaller wing, and the "g" -"grosser" distinguishing the larger wing. The "k" wing granted much more manoeuverability and speed, at the cost of higher landing speed and a more vicious stall characteristic, whereas the "g" wing cost only 6 mph in top speed, was far more benign in the stall, and gave a much easier to manage landing. Hence the "g" wing became that adopted for mass production. The "g" wing does not change much until the A6 model of FW190, wherein several ribs were removed as being unnecessary.

Much later, the "g" wing as employed in the A6 becomes the basis for both the wing of the Ta152 C and the Ta153, via various developments through the FW190B and other rebuilt A1 and A2 series factory prototypes. William Green "Warplanes of the Third Reich" is the source for this. The section on the FW190 family is, to say the least, extensive and damned-near exhaustive.

The surviving Ta152 is at the Paul Garber Facility of NASM at Silver Hills, Maryland, USA.

I do not know if the Ta152H1 once possessed by the USSR still exists.
The one example of Ta152H-ao that remained in Europe, allegedly in the care of the RAF via RAE Farnborough disappeared from sight years ago, as far as I am aware.

Respectful Regards, Uyraell.

Wehrmacht39
12-01-2010, 11:55 PM
Nice thread! Fw-190 was a great plane!

stano666
12-02-2010, 10:42 AM
Tanks for the "heads up" on FW 190 & Ta152, I'm not a anceclopedia on the subjects(or ANY, except forgetting i'm good in that, and getting better each year:mrgreen:) And i just started pickung up on a old hobby: biulding modelplanes of t luftwaffe. p.s. Ta 153 ? didn't know it excisted, lol, another variant of wich i'm going to have to built a model of (in 1:72), love to know more bout it, i'll wiki that one in a minute
Greetings stano666

Uyraell
12-02-2010, 05:56 PM
Tanks for the "heads up" on FW 190 & Ta152, I'm not a anceclopedia on the subjects(or ANY, except forgetting i'm good in that, and getting better each year:mrgreen:) And i just started pickung up on a old hobby: biulding modelplanes of t luftwaffe. p.s. Ta 153 ? didn't know it excisted, lol, another variant of wich i'm going to have to built a model of (in 1:72), love to know more bout it, i'll wiki that one in a minute
Greetings stano666

Greetings, stano666.
The Ta153 was, in essence, an out growth/fusion of both the FW190 B and FW190C series protoypes. In fact iIrc, the first and second airframes designated as Ta153 were rebuilt from both B & C series prototype airframes. The third Ta153 airframe was a melange of components from both an A2 series factory prototype and a D-Ao frame.
No "true" Ta153 was ever constructed, and all three airframes that carried the Ta153 designation were rebuilds.
However: as the Ta153 was a yet further departure from commonality with the FW190 series in terms of its' components (it was, iIrc, only 42% component-common as opposed to the D series being 72% and the Ta152 family being 65%+) the RLM forbade Tank to do any further developmental work on the Ta153, although elements of the Ta153 program were retroactively applied to both the Ta152C and Ta152E as "incremental developmental improvements" to quote FW documents of the time, as cited by Wm Green.


Edit: There is a surviving Do335 at NASM Paul Garber Facility Silver Hills Maryland, USA. From memory, it is the Do335 V13, aka Do335 B2 Ao. This aircraft is unique for several reasons, the most obvious being the 30mm cannon installation in the leading edge of each wing. This airframe is the ONLY known survivor so fitted.
The British, in their usual fashion, scrapped the remains of their two Do 335's, one of which had been crashed by a French "test-pilot" (memory says his name was Degallier) newly arrived from France, having, with the usual French suavity and aplombe in these matters, freshly crashed the last remaining of 3 Do335s in French possession. An (circa) early 1980's television interview featuring Captain Eric "Winkle" Brown, who flew most if not all German aircraft in British possession post-war is the source for this information.

Respectful Regards, Uyraell.

Randy
12-03-2010, 12:03 PM
Actually, the NASM 335 is Do335A-0 W.Nr. 240102 VG+PH (it's the second A-0) . It has the wings from an A-1 W.Nr. 140161

Trivia: The rear propeller has a 3 inch smaller diameter than the front's because it is spinning in air accelerated by the front prop and therefore has higher tip speeds for the same rpm. Also, the maximum single engine speed on the front engine is about 300mph, on the rear engine it's about 348mph.

stano666
12-04-2010, 05:56 AM
A bit of a shame realy, France & G.B. both had lots of luftwaffe planes (warprices) too (just as U.S., -and ofcourse USSR but they've done things "different" more on that later-) t U.S. still have lots of luftwaffe planes in (allmost) flying condition, they have some nice prototypes in museums (Sack AS for instance or Go 229, both not in flying condition but both fairly original as i know it) They like to show 'm too, some in permanent,or some in museum "basements" waiting to come out (if the web is truthfull, wich i think it is -in this case atleast, lol-) France and U.K. on the other hand seem to have "lost" most/much of their warprices (the most interesting for my that is -sob,sob i cry's softly-) for some reason. Maybe the need to use theirs, because (especially in France and mainland Europe) there wasn't much left after t war, so they used all flying material they could get there hands on. That accident story kinda suggests this. Maybe France & G.B. where so fat up with the war that they destroyed (or neglected) much of it.., -this seems highly unlikely btw-, could be coincidence too, i don't know?
Fact is: that Europe hasn't got as much luftwaffe planes as the U.S.A., atleast not the ones mentioned, more normal models like Bf109's, Fi stork, Ju52 are still around here -some in flying condition- :) Germany's museums have much interesting bits & pieces, probably tons of bleu prints etc. too. But the more rare planes (He219, Fw ta152 for example) aren't around, prototype's get some exposure occasionally but these are remade, non originals (still great to watch btw) Even the stuka of wich 6500 where made isn't been shown in German museum (not that i know of), they are rebuilding one (not sure when it's ready) from various downed a.c. and loose material -i hope it'll fly again-
What the Soviets did whit their warprices? I haven't got a clue, the "old" USSR did everything out of site, they should have got some wicked material, i've seen some stuff from USSR archives (on t.v.) but complete planes? The Rusian tank museum (Kublinka ?) has a lot (tanks that is) but taking pictures isn't allowed :( I hope they've got some luftwaffe (flying) material somewhere, and that they dare to show them.
In the end i'm very glad the U.S. has original luftwaffe stuff (if i must believe television, americans do horrifying things with their oldtimers, -no offence meanthere!!!- but discoverychannel shows a lot of "improvement" of old cars, wich -i would!!!- classify as rape, but i'm a bit of an "oddy") I'll certainly look at them when they come to Europe again. In the eighty's i missed the chance, a few planes where restored and put in "showcases" in Germany back then. I think it's time to restore them once more -LOL-.
In a few days capt. Browns book (wings of the luftwaffe) wil arive, i'll be stilling my hunger for luftwaffe planes with that for sometime :), Green's book probably will follow later.
I tank & greet y'all stano666 ps i hope i'm not being to vaguely, i ment to be infotaining. :)

stano666
12-04-2010, 07:07 AM
btw i stumbled upon a nice tschegic site : Detail Scale Aircraft Drawings
Sadly i can't give a link, but it had (see trough) drawings of the ta153, FW190 a&d, avia 99's, (a.o) The guy looked for people willing to sale his booklets of the drawings (wich i found good-looking) in the U.S, i couldn't find prices tho. There seems to be more sites called: Detail Scale Aircraft Drawings , i'll TRY to "refind" the site to give more detail.
Greetings stano6 6

Peacejager
04-24-2011, 11:54 PM
Nice thread,thanks for all the info and pictures. Regarding "NOS", NOS comes from the US company named Nitrous Oxide Systems. Nitrous oxide does not cause any corrosion,all it does is release more oxygen into the fuel air mix,since this alters the air fuel ratio failure can happen due to detonation. Water methanol injection can cause steam erosion of internal engine parts if used a lot. Regarding what the Soviets did with captured equipment,they had a policy of keeping all weapons ready to be used in case of war and that includes all captured equipment. So those tanks in the Russian museums are ready to run. I would guess they did the same with aircraft although much of what they captured was then later sold or given to other countries they wished to help.