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Panzerknacker
04-04-2006, 09:10 PM
Soviet mine dogs.

the isea was simple a trained dog carrieng 7 kg of heavy explosives launched to the underbelly of german tank and other armoured vehicles. pretty bad for the suicide animal. :roll:


http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/1016/dogmine1ux.jpg

Soviets tested the AT dogs during the military conflict with Japan in 1939 quite successfully, destroying several Japanese light tanks.
In August 1941 Soviets had 10 army units of AT dogs (consisted of 4 companies till July 1942, later - of 2 companies. Each company had 126 dogs). Such At dog units also had AT rifles platoons and snipers for killing the missed dogs with explosives. The first action AT dogs saw during the battle of Moscow in autumn 1941, 28th unit of AT dogs destroyed 42 German tanks and 2 armoured cars during the battle of Stalingrad. In one battle 15 from 17 dogs could reached the German tanks.

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/375/perro3xd.jpg

till October 1943 (when AT dog units were disbanded) Soviet Army had 2 regiments of AT dogs and 168 separate units, battalions and companies of AT dogs. Taking into consideration such big amount of AT dog units 300 destroyed German tanks seems reasonable, even not enough for 2 regiments and 168 units (that means that every unit with hundreds dogs could destroy only 2 tanks in average, a very ineffective, I would say......If the info about 28th unit is correct - 44 destroyed German AFVs during one battle, that means that the majority of AT dog units was completely unsuccessful!)

In principle, this idea is very strange as Soviet Army had quite sufficient amount of infantry AT rifles during the battle of Moscow and Stalingrad and using good AT rifles against tanks seems for me much more effective, safety and cheaper than unpredictable dog with two AT mines.

alephh
04-06-2006, 08:07 AM
About the first image:

"A soviet dog mine in training, or so it would appear. What is interesting about this picture is that although the training tank does not have a real gun, its turret appears to be that of the T-34/85. The T-34/85 was not introduced until 1944, yet dog mines were supposed to have been withdrawn in 1942!"

From:
http://www.soviet-empire.com/arsenal/army/anti-tank/dog_mine/dog_mine_001.php

Panzerknacker
04-08-2006, 05:07 PM
More pics of the Minenhunde.


http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/8605/perrocapturado6fe.jpg


http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/5254/dog4317si.jpg
.

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/7081/31bp1.jpg

Panzerknacker
05-02-2006, 07:48 PM
14,5mm PTRD antitank rifle:

http://ois.org.ua/club/guns/aaa-2003/ptrd41_01-506-150.jpg

The Red Army was alone among the major combatants in that it never produced a viable anti tank weapon for its infantry throughout the course of the war. The PTRD 1941 was available in time for the German invasion, but unfortunately its ammunition was not, so the Red Army found itself introducing the weapon during 1942; the same year the British and German armies were relegating their designs to the scrapheap.

The PTDR ( initials from Degytiarev Antitank Rifle) was a single shot , bolt action, crew served (one aim and shot and other load) WEAPON.


http://ois.org.ua/club/guns/aaa-2003/ptrd41_04-387-200.jpg

The Russian weapon saw widespread use against the ever heavier German tanks. It was useless in a frontal assault, and the weapon was too cumbersome to consider stalking for a rear engine shot. Instead, against tanks it was used to target soft points such as visor screens or periscopes, blinding the crew. While it may seem a desperate tactic an entire generation of 'super heavy' sniper rifles currently exists to target vulnerable electronic equipment in an identical fashion. It was also useful against buildings or bunkers. .

The 14,5 (14,5x114) AP steel core round had a muzzle velocity of 1003 m/s and penetrate 30mm armor at 150 meters in a vertical plate.

Panzerknacker
09-12-2006, 08:53 PM
Aditional info:

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/3354/pt1iw0.jpg

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/4530/pt2ml3.jpg

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/3997/pt3ib0.jpg

Chevan
09-13-2006, 03:45 AM
Hi Panzerkcnakcer.
Actually PTRD and PTRS were a good AT weapon against german Pz II,III or IV and especially against the lightly armored purposes.

PTRD and PTRS weren't the first soviet AT rifle. The first was the 14.5-mm AT rifle of Rukavishnikov (1939).
http://www.portal.lg.ua/images/stories/weapon/05/20-47.jpg
But it had not wide application in Red Army.(because on experience of battles 1939-1941 it seems for soviets generals the tendency to improve tank armour ).
But after the gemnan offence in 1941 it was used much light and medium tanks ( Pz-I, II and even captured French "Reno"). Stalin ordered to begin mass production PTRS and PTRD.
http://moscowbattle.narod.ru/photos/weapons/hand/ptrs1941.jpg
PTRS



http://moscowbattle.narod.ru/weapons/ptrd.html
....The baptism of fire anti-tank gun passed on 16 November, 1941, near the Moscow, in the region of the villages of the Petelins - Shiryaevo, eight antitank riflemen, shooting with 150 - 200 m, destroyed two average German tanks. Subsequent combat confirmed the high qualities of weapon. Thus, in combat for the station meadow in one of the hit enemy tanks proved to be 18 through holes....

As early as 1938 was provided for the application of guns not only against the tanks, but also against other purposes: armored carriers, armored cars, machine guns, antitank guns.
In the course of World War II this list was extended. PTR repeatedly shot at the enemy aircraft, but antitank rifleman A. Denisov 14 and on 15 July, 1943, under Orel brought down two Fascist bombers.(Perhaps it was Ju-87)
Anti-tank guns for the Soviet partisans proved to be present finding. For them they were, in fact, only weapon against the german tankettes and the armored cars.

Also It had very good job in Stalingrad.


http://www.sudden-strike.ru/history/detail.php?ID=2754&print=Y
The company of antitank riflemen to death stood on one of the sections. When reinforcement arrived in the place of struggle, it found terrible picture.
Two German tanks thickened on the positions, the corpses of tankers next were dragged along.
The body of Soviet antitank rifleman lay between the broken caterpillars of tank. Another soldier, riddled by the bullets of machine gun, lay on the earth, strongly compressing anti-tank gun, directed to the side of the hit tanks. Around everything was black from the fire and the earth reversed by projectiles...

After the Stalingrad battle and appearing new german tanks (Tigers , Panzer ant ets) the role of AT rifles were decreased.
But even today PTRD could be effective against modern "BTR-80" , "BMP-1,2,3" or "Bradly".

Chevan
09-13-2006, 04:24 AM
[u][b]

The Red Army was alone among the major combatants in that it never produced a viable anti tank weapon for its infantry throughout the course of the war.

It's not correct , mate.
German also had some kinds of AT rifles.
Similar weapon had also Polish (till 1939) and Chech army .
http://armor.kiev.ua/army/hist/ptr-1-2.jpg
Polish 7.92-mm AT rifle (1935)


http://armor.kiev.ua/army/hist/ptr-1.shtml
Designers of gun - polish officer Felstin and the graduate of Warsaw polytechnic university engineer the Eji Maroschuk.
So that the mass of gun would not exceed 10 kg, they selected rifle calibr. with the caliber of cartridge 7,92 mm the length of brass bottle flangeless case it became considerably more, than in usual cartridge was 107,3 mm. its pointed, with the cylindrical ground part, bullet DS with a mass of 12,7, it developed in the stem with a length of 1290 mm speed to 1500 m/s, breaking through on the distance of 300 m the steel plate with a thickness of 15 mm at angle of 60. It was possible to attain this because of the large length of stem in combination with the powerful powder charge of armor-piercing cartridge. Bullet had iron, plated by German silver shell and lead core (some sources they indicate that core it could be manufactured from carbide of tungsten).
The carried out tests attested to the fact that the gun can effectively be used against 70 % armaments of Wehrmacht. For increasing the rate of fire they equipped gun with 3- charge store. In connection with the high loads the period of the service of stem composed 500 shots (on other information only 200).
During October 1938 Polish army obtained the first 2000 guns. During August of their 1939 there was already by 3500, which composed approximately 45% of the planned 7610 pieces.
The superfluous measures of secrecy led to the fact that this powerful anti-tank weapon remained unmastered and not it was used properly during September 1939.
To Wehrmacht as the trophies were reached 886 guns. The guns received index PzB was in service into Vaffen SS and it was by them used in the war against THE USSR. Part PTR PzB transmitted to Italian and Hungarian armies...


Germans had also 7.92-mm AT PzB.39 :
http://armor.kiev.ua/army/hist/ptr-1-3.jpg
And Chech rifle used by germans
http://armor.kiev.ua/army/hist/ptr-1-6.jpg
PzB M.SS.41


In arsenal of German army besides the enumerated guns was Czechoslovak anti-tank gun Mss-41. specialists SS-Waffenakademie of Brno and the drawn Czech gunsmiths of firm Waffenwerke Brunn designed in 1940-1941 PTR W/7,92, of a small quantity that consisted under the index "Pz.B. M.SS.41" in the parts Of Waffen SS. Gun M.SS.41 it was intended for dealing with the light tanks and other lightly armored purposes, and also for the shooting at the embrasures of permanent emplacements

Certainly 7.92-mm bullet was too weak for fight with armoured techinc in 1941-42. Therefory soviet 14.5-mm PTRD/PTRS had a great advantage in comparision with germans AT rifles.
But germans made new kind of AT infantry gun:


....in base Pz.B.39 was developed the anti-tank grenade discharger Gz.B.39 for the shooting at the strongly armored purposes by cumulative grenade. With the creation of grenade discharger the stem of gun Pz.B.39 was shortened, and the grenade launcher was screwed to its muzzle part


http://armor.kiev.ua/army/hist/ptr-1-5.jpg
This firle had a big shortage - distance of effective hiting was no more then 150 meters.

Cheers.

Panzerknacker
09-13-2006, 02:11 PM
It's not correct , mate.
German also had some kinds of AT rifles.

I know Chevan, I have a topic of these in the German Military section, I was meaning tha the russian have more success wih his AT rifle ad used those the entire war, the germans discarded his 8mm rifles relatively quickly and used the 20 mm guns only in few ocations.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3357


Very good pics by the way, I really like the color M.SS.41 picture, is a very rare gun.

Chevan
09-14-2006, 03:46 AM
I know Chevan, I have a topic of these in the German Military section, I was meaning tha the russian have more success wih his AT rifle ad used those the entire war, the germans discarded his 8mm rifles relatively quickly and used the 20 mm guns only in few ocations.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3357


Very good pics by the way, I really like the color M.SS.41 picture, is a very rare gun.

OK .
I'm glad if helped.

Panzerknacker
09-14-2006, 09:35 AM
It helped i have to ad that picture to my ealier topic.

A prepared photo of russian infratryman throwing a RPG-40 grenade to a Ferdinad tank-hunter.


http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/6366/rpg40elefantmn7.jpg

Jasa
09-15-2006, 03:12 AM
The manner in which one could attain a side or rear shot with such rifles was to basically camouflage one's position and let the enemy pass. This tactic was used in both rural and urban environments.

Chevan
09-15-2006, 03:52 AM
A prepared photo of russian infratryman throwing a RPG-40 grenade to a Ferdinad tank-hunter.



Interesting photo.
In theory PRG-40 (in 1940 developed) had 760 gramms of trotyl , it was able to hit the 20-mm armour in contact with.
http://westfront.narod.ru/mus_htm/gren_rpg40.htm
http://westfront.narod.ru/museum/gren_rpg40.jpg
But honestly speaking, i doubt that one RPG-40 was effective against Ferdinand.
In practice , soviet soldiers or partisans used the bond of three (or even five ) grenades RPG-40/41. They threw bond into the engine compartment or under the bottom of the tank. This was effective but very danger method of fight with the tanks.

P.S. Much more effective against armoured car was the cumulative-explosive RPG-43. It was able to hit 75-mm armour.
http://blackdigger1.chat.ru/granat/rpg43.htm


Cheers.

Panzerknacker
09-15-2006, 07:36 PM
Yeap, that was because the RPG-40 rely ONLY in the blast effect.

The RPG-43 however had a shaped charge warhead wich teorically could penetrate 70 mm of armor.

RPG-43.

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/1191/rpgtn6.jpg




The manner in which one could attain a side or rear shot with such rifles was to basically camouflage one's position and let the enemy pass. This tactic was used in both rural and urban environments.


Teorically it could penetrate the Pz I and II from every angle far as 200 meters and the Pz II and IV from 100 metres in the sides.

Jasa
10-01-2006, 07:53 AM
I know from anecdotes that those grenades were effective, but I wonder about the length of the fuse, because it seems to me like it might tip over when it hits. Have you heard anything about that? Could it have been specially weighted to cause it to stay vertical when it hit, or did it have a short fuse which caused it to generally explode by the time it landed?

Panzerknacker
10-02-2006, 05:07 PM
No, the stabilization sistem was a long canvas strip with some kind of cup in the base, if this not hit straight to the armor the shaped charge is almost useless.

Jasa
10-03-2006, 04:54 AM
No, the stabilization sistem was a long canvas strip with some kind of cup in the base, if this not hit straight to the armor the shaped charge is almost useless.

Do you know the timing of the fuse? I wondered if maybe it was shortened to increase the likely hood that the charge would explode at the time of impact.

Sneaksie
10-03-2006, 07:48 AM
Do you know the timing of the fuse? I wondered if maybe it was shortened to increase the likely hood that the charge would explode at the time of impact.

It was designed to detonate immediately on impact. Throwing must be done from trench only (because it can't be thrown far due to 1200 grams weight and air stablizier which acts as brake, 15-20m are maximum). It was used in 1973 arab-israeli war too.

Lancer44
10-03-2006, 08:16 AM
It was designed to detonate immediately on impact. Throwing must be done from trench only (because it can't be thrown far due to 1200 grams weight and air stablizier which acts as brake, 15-20m are maximum). It was used in 1973 arab-israeli war too.

It was not very successful weapon. Rather suicidal, I would say.
Even in urban environment, 20-25 metres distant to destroy tank is close to suicide.
Equal to American improvised anti-tank "stick bomb", sock with piece of TNT + some grease to hold it to tank caterpillar...

I feel pity for either Russian or American boys which had to use these crude weapons.

Lancer44

Nickdfresh
10-03-2006, 10:35 AM
...

I feel pity for either Russian or American boys which had to use these crude weapons.

Lancer44

Especially when the armor had close, supporting infantry.

Chevan
10-03-2006, 01:11 PM
It was not very successful weapon. Rather suicidal, I would say.
Even in urban environment, 20-25 metres distant to destroy tank is close to suicide.
Equal to American improvised anti-tank "stick bomb", sock with piece of TNT + some grease to hold it to tank caterpillar...

I feel pity for either Russian or American boys which had to use these crude weapons.

Lancer44

Certainly this is not safe as the anti-tank gun or RPG-7, but i was much better then Molotov's coctail or simple TNT .

Panzerknacker
10-03-2006, 06:22 PM
It was designed to detonate immediately on impact.


Off course, is the only way to make the HEAT warhead effective.

http://www.pkymasehist.fi/pzb784_3.jpg

Panzerknacker
10-04-2006, 09:49 PM
More AT dogs marching to their sad destiny, Kursk 1943.

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/5931/perrosdeguerraef9.jpg

Jasa
10-05-2006, 06:03 AM
It was not very successful weapon. Rather suicidal, I would say.
Even in urban environment, 20-25 metres distant to destroy tank is close to suicide.
Equal to American improvised anti-tank "stick bomb", sock with piece of TNT + some grease to hold it to tank caterpillar...

I feel pity for either Russian or American boys which had to use these crude weapons.

Lancer44

If you watch the training they use to throw those it's not quite as bad as it seems. Generally the trick is to camouflage a hole and pop up to throw the grenade when you are in the tank's blind spot. There were other creative ways to use them as well, such as dropping them out of a window.

Lancer44
10-05-2006, 08:24 AM
If you watch the training they use to throw those it's not quite as bad as it seems. Generally the trick is to camouflage a hole and pop up to throw the grenade when you are in the tank's blind spot. There were other creative ways to use them as well, such as dropping them out of a window.

Yep, but tanks go together with infantry... so your hero is "popping up" ...
and receiving bullet from infantry grouped very close to the tank...

Cheers,

Lancer44

Panzerknacker
10-05-2006, 08:49 AM
A far more "suicidal weapon" was the german Hafthohlladung grenades like the HHL 3 and panzerhandminen, those were applied by hand over the armor.


HHL3

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/6268/panzer16sr2.gif

As extremely dangerous it may seen ( and actually are) some panzerknackers enjoyed many succeses with this tipe of weapon, including the guy in my avatar, G. Viezenz.

http://tecnica-militar.fateback.com/terrestre/Panzerknacker.htm

Nickdfresh
10-05-2006, 10:54 AM
Still beats the Japanese Army's technique of putting a guy in a hole with both a hammer and an aircraft bomb, hoping a Sherman drives over him.

Panzerknacker
10-05-2006, 06:27 PM
Yeap , everything seems to be rather suicidal in the japanese military.

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/jp_tankhunters/fig1_japanese_lunge_mine_antitank.jpg

Jasa
10-06-2006, 04:48 AM
Yep, but tanks go together with infantry... so your hero is "popping up" ...
and receiving bullet from infantry grouped very close to the tank...

Cheers,

Lancer44

And yet somehow many tanks were destroyed in JUST THAT SAME FASHION, and the people who did it survived. What a strange coincidence!!!

Panzerknacker
10-10-2006, 07:00 PM
Another use for the 14,5 mm rifle.

In this Ferdinad the soviet infratrymen try to break the tracks.

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/5475/elefant2kj5.jpg

Nickdfresh
10-11-2006, 06:39 AM
Another use for the 14,5 mm rifle.

In this Ferdinad the soviet infratrymen try to break the tracks.

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/5475/elefant2kj5.jpg

Ha! I wondered about that. That's excellent shooting...

I wonder what the success rate/effectiveness of getting a round into a slit was?

Jasa
10-12-2006, 06:11 AM
Another use for the 14,5 mm rifle.

In this Ferdinad the soviet infratrymen try to break the tracks.

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/5475/elefant2kj5.jpg


I downloaded a manual in Russian for one of the AT rifles and it seems that from the side, you could actually put a round into the gas tank of a Mark III or MKIV pretty easily. Have you ever looked at some internal diagrams of those models?

Panzerknacker
10-13-2006, 10:12 AM
Ha! I wondered about that. That's excellent shooting...

I wonder what the success rate/effectiveness of getting a round into a slit was?

This metod was sometimes succesful when was used against the lighter Pz II/III/IV tracks, the Tiger/Ferdinad seems too heavy and thick to break.


I downloaded a manual in Russian for one of the AT rifles and it seems that from the side, you could actually put a round into the gas tank of a Mark III or MKIV pretty easily. Have you ever looked at some internal diagrams of those models?

Both models of Panzer had an 30 mm thick side hull, wich could be ( at list teorically) penetrated by the BS 14,5 mm round shooting at 100-120 metres.

Check this link.

http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=280&Itemid=123

Jasa
10-17-2006, 08:43 AM
That was the manual I was referring to, thanks. Another article I read said that the problem of AT rifles on the Eastern front wasn't so much not penetration but too much- the rounds would go right through without hitting anything sensitive.

Panzerknacker
10-17-2006, 07:56 PM
Hmmm...dont think so in tanks, maybe the "over penetration" was only in lightly armores vehicles like Armored cars and halftracks.

Panzerknacker
10-22-2006, 02:51 PM
PTRS AA weapon.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c257/MGuastoni/Rusky28.jpg


In the trench...

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c257/MGuastoni/Rusky36.jpg

Vassili Chukolov
05-03-2007, 02:15 PM
I read in a book about a Sniper; Vassili Zaitsev fitted a scope on the PTDR anti tank rifle to see if it could be an effective sniper rifle agianst tanks and bunkers and what not. It turned out that it was a little inaccurate at longer ranges.

Panzerknacker
05-03-2007, 07:17 PM
I think it was a PTRS semi auto.

Panzerknacker
06-20-2007, 08:29 PM
What you think about this display? is realistic?


From: Infantry antitanks Tactics WW2 (osprey)

1000ydstare
06-24-2007, 09:29 AM
Reasonably.

Why? do you think it isn't.

Splinter54
06-24-2007, 10:49 AM
Yes, seems pretty good to me also, but i would have placed the Mines and the Soldier equipped with the Molotov Cocktail somewhere else - but it's just a picture to show how it theoretically worked ;)

Panzerknacker
06-24-2007, 01:45 PM
I was just looking for a second ( even a third) opinion, thanks.

Panzerknacker
07-03-2007, 08:27 PM
PTRD and PTRS weren't the first soviet AT rifle. The first was the 14.5-mm AT rifle of Rukavishnikov (1939)


I found another images of this, but I think it was actually 12,7mm, (12,7x108)

http://i.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/000104/104337.jpg


http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/7210/104339oy8.jpg


Is this a Rukavishnikov ??

genkideskan
07-07-2007, 07:09 AM
The Text read Sowetskoe PTR Schcholochowa --

Panzerknacker
07-07-2007, 04:29 PM
Schcholochowa ??, then we have another desing in hands.

Thanks for the translation ;)

cooke24
07-08-2007, 02:01 PM
yea my thought is place the molitov cocktail in a window at a higher height than the tank so u can at least hit the commanders capula or the commander but again the commander wouldnt stick his head out like that in an urban area. but if you hit the top of the tank the gasoline would at least spread on the surrounding infantry.

genkideskan
07-13-2007, 11:52 AM
A nice site for the PTRD and PTRS you can find here


http://www.antitank.co.uk/russian1.htm

Panzerknacker
07-16-2007, 09:55 PM
Thanks for the link, here you got another. :cool:

http://tecnicamilitar.forum.ijijiji.com/tema-271-tecnicamilitar.html

1000ydstare
07-17-2007, 01:32 AM
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/5475/elefant2kj5.jpg

Looking at this pic, The tactic of shooting moving tracks is a bit daft. They are moving, and the tracks are solid metal.

It would make more sense shooting from the side, on to one of the roller wheels which, ironically would be more damageable.

The hole on the left doesn't look big enough, it may be a lucky shot from rifle, or maybe a piece of shrapnel.

The holes on the left may have been from a AT gun. Two fired at the same time?

The front end of the tank looks a little smashed up, and there is another AT gun hole roughly 1/3 right on the brest plate.

Few interesting sites.

http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust6.htm

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/antitank.pdf

http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/Weapons/infantryantitank/infantry_anti_tank_weapons.htm

Panzerknacker
07-18-2007, 08:45 PM
Next I post information about experimental antitank rifles developed in 1938-45, unfortunately I owe the translation, cant handle the cyrilic.

Thanks Lothar for this material ¡¡

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/3816/88452510gh2.jpg



http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/9316/36714851wd9.jpg



http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/6459/60848753iw4.jpg



http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/5355/29221358lw5.jpg


to be continued...

Dobb
01-26-2008, 01:59 PM
Hi,

I was wondering, how do the Russians defeat the German tanks? Are they limited to using only AT rifles? Were they no rocketry weapons like Bazookas or Panzerschrecks? As far as I know, the Russian doctrines about anti-tanks rely heavily on terrain and artillery, and a wee bit of camo'd towed AT guns about.

Panzerknacker
01-26-2008, 03:27 PM
A little seach before open new topics usually helps.

Panzerknacker
02-25-2008, 05:35 PM
I am not sure if this image is about russian soldiers, but the weapons seems to be an improvisated "geballte ladung" with rpg-33 hand grenades of russian origin.

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/6725/granadasjb2.jpg

bas
02-26-2008, 06:12 PM
I don't think they are Russian Soldiers Panzer, the uniforms are slighly off, and they are armed with a Mauser 98 variant not Mosin-Nagants.

My guess is that they're from one of the Baltic states.

Panzerknacker
02-28-2008, 04:29 PM
Yeap, they looked like polish or czech variant of the german rifle, maybe some they are some kind of partisans.

genkideskan
02-28-2008, 04:50 PM
To that the russian had some very effective hollow charge handgrenades.

http://www.inert-ord.net/russ02i/index.html

And AT rifle grenades where used. To that the russians had the ampullomet.

A cup rifle discharger for Molotov cocktails.

Panzerknacker
02-29-2008, 06:16 AM
And AT rifle grenades where used. To that the russians had the ampullomet.

A cup rifle discharger for Molotov cocktails.


That remember me this, I was looking some old documentry about Stalingrad the other day and in some film were depicted the russian infantry carring something like a bazooka but firing form the ground and a heavier calibre, I dont know if that was a molotov trohwer or some grenade discharger.

genkideskan
02-29-2008, 09:07 AM
Yes I saw exactly that film some years ago and remember I was wondering what the hell they shoot there.
May be it is a captured Panzerschreck... but Iam not sure that these weapon made it to Stalingrad. may be the scene isnt Stalingrad but Budapest or even Berlin. As far as I know the russian didnt have a Panzerschreck or Panzerfaust. It is possible that some Bazookas go to Russia by LendLease.

Panzerknacker
02-29-2008, 03:24 PM
No, definately there was no panzerschrecks in Stalingrad, it was introduced in mid 1943.

Tony Williams
03-02-2008, 06:17 AM
The Russians did a lot of work on recoilless guns in the 1930s. They were probably using one of those.

Panzerknacker
03-02-2008, 10:45 AM
It could be this artifact, even the shape is not the same.http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/6557/nuevo2ml0.jpg

genkideskan
04-02-2009, 01:58 PM
Look at this baby - a 37mm round necked down to 20mm.
The russian RES 4 AT rifle - may be somebody knows more ??
There is an 14,5mm BNS too.


http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/3013/res4compressed.jpg (http://img26.imageshack.us/my.php?image=res4compressed.jpg)

Panzerknacker
04-02-2009, 06:59 PM
Auch !!...that is awesome. The muzzle velocity must be kolossal.

Thanks for the pictures.

tankgeezer
04-02-2009, 09:42 PM
Tasty !! any more info?

The Historian
10-11-2009, 04:05 PM
I'd hope the recoil management works on that--otherwise I might lose an arm firing it

There were tripod-mounted 37mm guns used in World War I for close-range action:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:French_M1916_37mm_infantry_gun.jpg

French 37mm trench gun

misfire99
09-18-2010, 02:15 AM
It was not very successful weapon. Rather suicidal, I would say.
Even in urban environment, 20-25 metres distant to destroy tank is close to suicide.
Equal to American improvised anti-tank "stick bomb", sock with piece of TNT + some grease to hold it to tank caterpillar...

I feel pity for either Russian or American boys which had to use these crude weapons.

Lancer44

I am currently 54 years old and come from a very Gung-ho Marine family. When I was 13 I was given the Marine manual as a birthday present. I very clearly remember the instruction for making the "sticky bomb". You have to have brass balls to face your fear enough to use that thing. I have great respect for men that could take on a tank like that.

tankgeezer
09-21-2010, 10:58 AM
Would the 37/20mm be a recoiless rifle? I see a scooped chute behind the breech, otherwise it would have some kick to it. The 20mm Carl Gustav rifle was recoiless, and used a similarly shaped cartridge.

Panzerknacker
09-22-2010, 08:22 PM
Would the 37/20mm be a recoiless rifle? I see a scooped chute behind the breech, otherwise it would have some kick to it. The 20mm Carl Gustav rifle was recoiless, and used a similarly shaped cartridge.


As far I know wasnt, but the muzzle attachment is a very dedicated muzzle break that reduced felt recoil in 40-50 %.

Deaf Smith
09-22-2010, 09:15 PM
I bet the 'RES' burned out barrels fast. That round is way overbore so the hot gasses would eat the bore up fast.

Better they steal the Gerlich principle, or sabot, or Davis recoiless gun (in fact the Russians did try with the DRP cannon.)

Deaf

Panzerknacker
09-23-2010, 10:51 AM
Indeed , the DRP ( dinamic reactive principle) was tested before Ww2 in aircraft armament for the VVS, weirdly wasnt tested for infantry usage.

forager
10-22-2010, 09:38 AM
I disassembled a Chinese version of the Russian RK AT grenade in RVN.

It had a full parachute inside that deployed when you threw it.
You kind of whipped it and the handle came away and the little canopy, about a foot in diameter, popped out like an umbrella.

There was a spring loaded firing pin that set the thing off.

A pretty nutty and dangerous idea, to mee.