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FW-190 Pilot
03-08-2006, 05:57 PM
i heard from my friends said that he read from a book a long time ago that states nazi has use kamikaze unit against the US bombers when the war is nearly the end at year 1945.

I just wonder is that true?

StalingradK
03-08-2006, 08:07 PM
I saw somehting on the military channel about it. They used fast planes to try and bring down bomber. They had a huge flaw though, they didn't expect teh bombers to shoot back. If one did get close enough to a bomber though, the suicide planes were accompanied by fighters, they would ram into the side tearing through the exterior of the plane.

Ingsoc
03-09-2006, 03:31 AM
http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/kamikaze/index.html

Panzerknacker
03-09-2006, 08:19 AM
Another semi-kamikaze unit was the Rammkommando Elbe, created under the directions of Hajo Hermann, those actually attacked by raming the bombers in 1945 , even some pilots survived to tell the history, most of they did not.

Cash
03-10-2006, 09:13 AM
This book is about it -

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/5708/tlfl0gq.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Panzerknacker
03-12-2006, 10:08 AM
This B-17G was rammed by an Elbe s BF-109 but managed to return home with 2 gunners killed :shock:

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/2770/rammed9di.jpg

HG
03-12-2006, 10:53 AM
Panzer, was it not a Fw-190 with armoured wings that rammed that B-17. As far as I know they used the Fw-190 to do those attacks on the bombers after they were hit or out of ammunition.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Henk

Panzerknacker
03-12-2006, 11:04 AM
The Fw-190 with armored wings did not exist.

There was an FW-190A-8 version with increased armor for withstand the close range.50 caliber fire but it protect the pilot.

The A-8/R-8 carry a steel plate inside the wing for protecting the 30mm ammo, not for ramming.

There was some Sturmbocks wich were used to ram like Willy Maximowitz plane , but the plane was always damaged or directly destroyed, Maximowitz managed to bring down two B-17 by raming, but in one ocation he return with his aircraft barely serviceable and in other he had to bail out.

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/3763/fw190maximowitz2sr.jpg

Pics about the armour plate in here.

http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/5561/fwarmor27xu.jpg

HG
03-12-2006, 11:12 AM
Oh, ok. That is what I read. The pilots of the Fw-190 rammed the B-17 and the book said they used the extra armour that were fitted for the guns to survive the impact. Some even knew how to do it so that their aircraft does not get so badly damaged.

Wich one rammed the best, the Fw-190 or the Bf-109?

Henk

Panzerknacker
03-12-2006, 11:15 AM
FW-190, the wings structure was by far more strong.

This was rammed or colided with Fw-190....did not survive.

http://aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/photos/gallery_006/AC%20B-17%20severe%20damage%20to%20nose.jpg

HG
03-12-2006, 11:22 AM
Yes, in that same book they said the one pilot was shot and then he collided with the B-17 and then died on impact and thus took the B-17 with him.

Dam, did the pilots survive? They were realy mad.

Henk

Panzerknacker
03-12-2006, 11:42 AM
In the case of the up pic...nobody survive , neither the german pilot or the allied crew.

HG
03-12-2006, 12:06 PM
Dam, I have athis little film on one of my PS! games that they show how a B-17's nose brakes off wile it explodes.

Nasty stuff.

Henk

Panzerknacker
03-12-2006, 07:34 PM
A very unlike suicide pilot was Heinrich Ehrler, he killhimself ramming a B-17 with his Me-262.

And I say unlike because he was not a novice but an experte with 200 victories. Aniway the thing was that he failed to protect the Tirpitz battleship and the was jugded and condemned to 3year forced labor "after the war".

With the Me 262 Ehrler got 8 victories.
On 04. or 06.April 1945 (differ source data) Ehrler started for his last flight. He shoot down two B-17 bomber and after he had no more ammunition he rammed in "Kamikaze" style
a 3rd B-17.
His last words aimed to his friend Theo Weißenberger were
" We see us in Walhalla ! "

http://www.leisuregalleries.com/ehrler.jpg


more data in here:

http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Jagdflieger/Luftwaffe/Ehrler_Heinrich/ehrler.htm

Panzer Ace
03-13-2006, 01:12 PM
--" We see us in Walhalla "--

WHat does this mean?

And thats too bad he'd be forced to do 3 years labour once the war was over... sounded like he did his duty and did it well.

SS Tiger
03-13-2006, 01:22 PM
What was the tactic with hitting aircraft? It would seem logical to use your wing to slice the bombers tail off from the side. That would give you the strong leading edge of your wing against the relatively weak tail plane. Also you may loose your wing but you'll survive the impact and could bail?

1000ydstare
03-13-2006, 01:35 PM
The unit was KG.100. It was a large and diverse aircraft wing that had numourous sub groups. I have a topic on it somewhere in the forum.

The ramming of planes was simpley that, a ram. The americans trialled a fighter, after the war, with strengthened wings for such attacks but not the Germans.

The tactic was not favoured by Hitler, although he didn't mind people doing it. If that makes sense.

Wiking
03-13-2006, 01:44 PM
--" We see us in Walhalla "--

WHat does this mean?

Walhalla is the viking heaven - The Nordic religion of Paganism. They believed in Thor and Odin.

Panzerknacker
03-13-2006, 04:39 PM
What was the tactic with hitting aircraft? It would seem logical to use your wing to slice the bombers tail off from the side. That would give you the strong leading edge of your wing against the relatively weak tail plane. Also you may loose your wing but you'll survive the impact and could bail?

The was no an elaborated tactic, teorically a Fw-190 could hit the elevators and stabilizer of a B-24/17 cutting trough it and still remain in the air long enough to allow the pilot bail out.....but not always was the case.
The ramming was only very sporadical, not a rule.


An special rocket propelled Ramer aircraft with a thick steel ( real thing this time) wing beam was designed in 1944.

http://www.luft46.com/misc/3bzram.jpg
http://www.luft46.com/misc/ramcutc.jpg


Check here:

http://www.luft46.com/misc/zrammer.html


Panzer Ace wrote:
--" We see us in Walhalla "--

WHat does this mean?

Walhalla is the viking heaven - The Nordic religion of Paganism. They believed in Thor and Odin.

Yes, the vikings believe that all warriors killed in combat going to this kind of heaven.


( edited to fix my crappy spelling :roll: )

scandic
03-14-2006, 07:46 AM
--" We see us in Walhalla "--

What does this mean?

Walhalla is the viking heaven - The Nordic religion of Paganism. They believed in Thor and Odin.

All germanic tribes believed it. All fallen warrior come into the Walhalla - the hall of dead warriors.

Grishnak
03-14-2006, 08:22 AM
Warriors killed in battle went to Walhalla, where they would drink and fight all day.
Those that died of disease and old age etc went to Hel (hell), a rather miserable place.

Twitch1
03-17-2006, 06:45 PM
The Luftwaffe expended a large amount of their Bf 109K models in this operation. Both Hajo Hermann and Hanna Reitch were proponents of suicide missions.

Panzerknacker
03-17-2006, 08:39 PM
Yeah the tiny Hanna had some pretty extremist ideas.

The semi-kamikaze ( or kamikaze depending your opinion) aircraft proposed for Hanna and Skorzeny was the Fieseler Fi 103 Reichenberg IV
a manned version of the V1 bomb. The nose in this aircraft carry nearly a ton of HE:

http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/images/Fi103_gatial_tomas_500.jpg


http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/fi103-1.jpg


Teorically the pilot had some chances to bail out before put his aircraft in the aatcking shallow dive, but those are few if any.

The Reichenberg IV was not the only desing for this dramatic purpose, check this from Daimler Benz.

http://www.luft46.com/db/3bdbbmbe.jpg


Daimler Benz DB Project "F"

http://www.luft46.com/mrart/mrdbf-2.jpg

HG
03-18-2006, 07:58 AM
Yes, that were some crazy ideas. The Fieseler Fi 103 Reichenberg IV were totaly crazy. I would never fly in such a flying bomb. The Daimler Benz ideas were also not so good. With the time and technology wasted on this they could have made the other aircraft in greater numbers, but you can not say that these thing are not interesting.

I love to read about these things that you never normaly see.

Great pics and info Panzerknacker and everyone who posted here.

Henk

Panzer Ace
04-07-2006, 02:18 PM
Little more here........................

GERMAN 'KAMIKAZES'

On April 7, 1945, the first German 'kamikaze' attacks on Allied aircraft took place west of Hannover. Driven by desperation, the volunteer pilots in their ME-109s fired their cannons at point blank range into a stream of American bombers and then ramming them. Twenty-three bombers were destroyed this way and another twenty-eight shot down by the escorting jet fighters during the battle. On the eastern Front, twelve Luftwaffe pilots, led by Rudolf Escherich from the Fighter Squadron 'Udet' volunteered to form a suicide mission to crash their planes into bridges spanning the river Oder. The mission was a failure, many of the planes being shot down before they reached the target and others failed to find the bridges as the area was blanketed with smoke. With the Red Army across the Oder, further suicide missions were abandoned.

Link....... http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/1944.html#lesser_known_1944

Panzerknacker
04-07-2006, 09:05 PM
Nice info Panzer.

Yes the german kamikazes are less know that the japanese, but the useless and I might ad.. idiotic sacrifice was the same. :?

Panzer Ace
04-13-2006, 02:25 PM
I seen something else last night..... its not quite "kamikazee" but close. The Germans used speed boats packed with explosives.... and these were to of been driven into the Allied armies as they tried to cross the Roer River... and when they were erecting pontoon bridges. The Germans would bail out and the boat would coast till it hit home.

I thought that was interesting.

Panzerknacker
04-14-2006, 11:12 PM
That metod was also used by the italians with grat succes.