Centurion Tank

[Nickdfresh]

Could Britain have deployed the heavily armoured Centurion MBT in time for the closing years of WWII? I know I could GOOGLE this, but I like to hear about from tank aficionados. :mrgreen:

http://www.tanks2go.com/United_Kingdom/images/UKcenturion-1.jpg

She's a beaut! sigh...

[Gen. Sandworm]

I was under the impression that a few were deployed during the close of WW2! Maybe I was wrong.

I did see a documentry about tanks on the discovery channel. One of the drivers of the centurion said it had to be one of the best tanks ever produced however he said it's alot like learning to ride a bicycle backwards. :lol:

[FluffyBunnyGB]

Opinions vary, but 5 or 6 CENTURION Mk 1, with 17 pdr and 20mm co-axial cannon, were rushed to the continent at the end of the war.

They arrives too late to see action.

[Topor]

If we had been able to field them in significant numbers a year earlier, then I think it quite possible that the conflict in Western Europe would have moved into Germany months sooner.
One of the telling holdups for Allied forces was the inability of our armour to punch through the German defences without significant losses, thus leaving too few resources to exploit any breaks.

[Nickdfresh]

Opinions vary, but 5 or 6 CENTURION Mk 1, with 17 pdr and 20mm co-axial cannon, were rushed to the continent at the end of the war.

They arrives too late to see action.

Actually, information of the Centurion during WWII is limited and overshadowed by it's contribution to warfare from Korea and the Sinai Desert to the jungles of Vietnam...

But development began in 1943, the first examples were rushed into production maybe in late 44.' It would have been tough to get reliable examples fielded before mid 1945...

In any case, she was an excellent tank that favored crew survivability and adaptability. And I'd make love to her if I could... :lol:

[George Eller]

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http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/8711/centuriontank015oz.jpg
From: "British and American Tanks of World War II", by Peter Chamberlain and Chris Ellis, Arco Publishing Company, 1975, (p 52)
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http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/7219/centuriontank029fi.jpg
From: "British and American Tanks of World War II", by Peter Chamberlain and Chris Ellis, Arco Publishing Company, 1975, (p 53)
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http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/1893/centuriontank035pv.jpg
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http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8366/centuriontank054qk.jpg
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http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/3168/centuriontank043sa.jpg
Probably a latter variant of Centurion (Mk III?) with 83.4mm gun (20-pounder)
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Centurion Variants still in service with Israel Defence Forces:

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/3773/nakpadon33ez.jpg
Nakpadon Heavy Armored Personnel Carrier
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/engineer_vehicles/nakpadon/Nakpadon.html

http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/745/nakpadon99cy.jpg
Nakpadon Heavy Armored Personnel Carrier
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/engineer_vehicles/nakpadon/Nakpadon.html
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Both the Nagmachon and Nakpadon are burdened by excessive weight, the latter probably weighting as much as 55 tones. The Nagmachon retains the upgrades Centurion's 750hp AVDS diesel. The Nakpadon uses the 900hp AVDS 1790-6A power pack of the Merkava Mk 1. The current suspension used by the vehicles is a hybrid, based on the cold Centurion system, but incorporating hydraulic bump stops. Road wheels tend to show signs of severe wear, wheel tires typically being almost totally destroyed by excessive thermal and mechanical loading. As funds become available, Merkava style suspension and all steel road wheels are being retrofitted.

The Nakpadon can take 10 troops more and it's equipped with four M240 7.62mm machine guns and grenade launchers. Due to great armored protection, it is weighs 55 tons, being the VBI weighed already constructed. To compensate the weight, the engine 750 diesel AVDS of hp was changed by a AVDS used 1790-sa of 900 hp in the Merkava Mk 1.
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http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/8359/puma56ly.jpg
Puma Heavy Armored Personnel Carrier
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/engineer_vehicles/puma/Puma.html

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/3933/pumad2ab.jpg
Puma Heavy Armored Personnel Carrier
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/engineer_vehicles/puma/Puma.html

Although the Nagmachon was a step forward compared to the Nagmasho't, it was still a stop gap solution to fielding a satisfactory personnel carrier with enough protection to the crew and mounted soldiers. In the already acquainted way of ‘telescopic development' a further carrier was developed using the Centurion chassis.

The result was a sleeker vehicle with a lower silhouette, in effect reducing the silhouette of the vehicle and therefore increasing its survivability. Survivability was further enhanced by using armor of the third generation, which was denser than the previous kinds of armor used.

The resulting vehicle had a major drawback, however as there was no rear entry or exit for the infantry troops. As a result, the mounted troops had to egress over the roof and the top of the hull, exposing the disembarking troops to enemy fire. The risk of exposing the troops was found to be a very important drawback so much that the vehicle was judged unsuited for the APC (armored personnel carrier) role.

At the same time, IDF's Combat Engineer Force, had a requirement for a heavily protected vehicle to support their frontline tasks. It was decided to adapt the new vehicle to their task. The vehicle was named Puma, which is an acronym for Poretz Mokshim Handasati (minefield break through vehicle).

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[CrossBones]

S!

Jesus, Eller......you live in a tank factory???? :lol: :lol:

You know anything about then........

[George Eller]

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S!

Jesus, Eller......you live in a tank factory???? :lol: :lol:

You know anything about then........

:lol: :lol: :lol: ...Oh no, just a long time interest of mine :D

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[student-scaley]

You should take my 'how weapons work' course, i just did an essay on comparing the T-72M versus the M1A1 Abrams.

[FluffyBunnyGB]

The CENTURION BARV (Beach Armoured Recovery Vehicle) only retired from the British Army in the last few years, and one remains in service with the Royal Marines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BARV

These pictures are from the Tanx Heaven site, which has some interesting pictures of other tanks as well:

http://tanxheaven.com

have a look in the reference pictures, as many seem to be of real vehicles instead of models.

[Nickdfresh]

Thanks GEORGE. Excellent info there!

[George Eller]

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You should take my 'how weapons work' course, i just did an essay on comparing the T-72M versus the M1A1 Abrams.

Hi "Student-scaley"

Is this a course that you are taking in the Army or a Military Academy? It sounds like a difficult one. Your essay on the T-72M versus the M1A1 Abrams must relate to their use in the recent Gulf Wars.

I hope that you do well on it. :D

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The CENTURION BARV (Beach Armoured Recovery Vehicle) only retired from the British Army in the last few years, and one remains in service with the Royal Marines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BARV

These pictures are from the Tanx Heaven site, which has some interesting pictures of other tanks as well:

http://tanxheaven.com

have a look in the reference pictures, as many seem to be of real vehicles instead of models.

Thanks for the links "FluffyBunnyGB" :D
Very interesting site.
I didn't know that Ossie Orsbourn was interested in military history (see links below from tanxheaven.com).

Centurion Mk.1 (A41) UK
Pictures by Ossie Orsbourn
Bovington Tank Museum
http://tanxheaven.com/cent/a41mk1/a41mk1.htm

Centurion Mk.6 FV 4011 UK
pictures by Ossie Orsbourn
http://tanxheaven.com/cent/fv4011mk6/fv4011mk6.htm

And More
http://tanxheaven.com/referencepictures.htm

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Thanks GEORGE. Excellent info there!

My pleasure Nick :D

I only regret that I could not find more on the early WWII variant of the Centurion. Later models are not a problem. The Tanxheaven site had some interesting photos though.

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[student-scaley]

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You should take my 'how weapons work' course, i just did an essay on comparing the T-72M versus the M1A1 Abrams.

Hi "Student-scaley"

Is this a course that you are taking in the Army or a Military Academy? It sounds like a difficult one. Your essay on the T-72M versus the M1A1 Abrams must relate to their use in the recent Gulf Wars.

I hope that you do well on it. :D

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My course is War Studies at king's College London, i got a 2:1 for it, not bad. I wasn't looking at the Gulf, i was actually comparing their intended usage in the European theatre assesing how the relative doctrine of the US and Soviet Armies affected their tank design.

[Nickdfresh]

Thanks GEORGE. Excellent info there!

My pleasure Nick :D

I only regret that I could not find more on the early WWII variant of the Centurion. Later models are not a problem. The Tanxheaven site had some interesting photos though.

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Well, I had the same problem. I can only assume that none saw combat although a few were deployed for that reason...

I also know the Australians used the Centurion in Vietnam and favored it's thick armor, and the way she could take a BP-40/RPG7 and still run...

[George Eller]

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You should take my 'how weapons work' course, i just did an essay on comparing the T-72M versus the M1A1 Abrams.

Hi "Student-scaley"

Is this a course that you are taking in the Army or a Military Academy? It sounds like a difficult one. Your essay on the T-72M versus the M1A1 Abrams must relate to their use in the recent Gulf Wars.

I hope that you do well on it. :D

-

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My course is War Studies at king's College London, i got a 2:1 for it, not bad. I wasn't looking at the Gulf, i was actually comparing their intended usage in the European theatre assesing how the relative doctrine of the US and Soviet Armies affected their tank design.
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Congratulations :D

From what I've read at your college's website, it appears to have a very high rating. Same goes for the Department of War Studies and the University of London as a whole.

Your topic is interesting too. It has been awhile since I have kept up with Russian armour development. Some generalities that I seem to remember were that Soviet tanks tended to be more cheaply made and thus wore out quicker than western designs. They were not used as much in training in order to preserve their service life. This in turn affected crew readiness and proficiency. The tanks had low profiles and low well shaped turrets in order to present as small a target as possible. They carried very large guns, but because of the limited space in the vehicles fewer rounds could be carried than in their western counterparts. They also had a slower rate of fire and their sights were not as good. The turret's low profile also limited the angle at which the gun could be depressed. This factor prevented them from concealing as much of their vehicle when in defilade (hull-down) position as their western counterparts. Lack of air-conditioning also contributed to crew fatigue in warmer climates. The lack of return rollers to adjust track tension also made the treads susceptible to snapping from harmonic vibration when driving at top speed for sustained lengths of time. Their light weight did give them good power-to-weight ratio and good range. Much the opposite could have been said of their western counterparts, but at the price of being more expensive and fewer in number. ... Just some generalities circa 1970's-80's. The situation has probably changed somewhat since then.

At any rate, I wish you continued success in your studies.

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[George Eller]

Thanks GEORGE. Excellent info there!

My pleasure Nick :D

I only regret that I could not find more on the early WWII variant of the Centurion. Later models are not a problem. The Tanxheaven site had some interesting photos though.

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Well, I had the same problem. I can only assume that none saw combat although a few were deployed for that reason...

I also know the Australians used the Centurion in Vietnam and favored it's thick armor, and the way she could take a BP-40/RPG7 and still run...
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The Centurion was also the favorite tank of Israel's Armoured Corps during the 1973 Middle-East War. It gave a good account of itself on the Golan Heights in the early days of that war.

The South African Army also used the Centurion (called the "Oliphant") into the 1990's.

A very successful design indeed.

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[CDN3RD_Canadian]

It dose sound like a very interesting thesis I hope you did well on it.

[Cuts]

The South African Army also used the Centurion (called the "Oliphant") into the 1990's.

A very successful design indeed.

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The Olifant may have been up-gunned, up-armoured, up-engined and had it's electronics modernised, but it is still to all intents and purposes a Cent and the SADF treadheads at Tempe were pretty handy at using them - ask the Cubans and the Russians !

It was due to be replaced by the Olifant 2B, and when the terrs became the govt they ordered many of them.
However cash became a bit short when there are all those Swiss bank accunts to be filled, and this excellent design has been relegated to a test bed for future armour.
We'll see just how long money takes to filter through to the SANDF. - Top tip: Don't hold your breath !

The Olifant is still in use as the RSA's MBT now - or rather those that are currently maintained (:roll: ) are , and unless something very odd happens will remain so for a long time to come.

[George Eller]

The South African Army also used the Centurion (called the "Oliphant") into the 1990's.

A very successful design indeed.

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The Olifant may have been up-gunned, up-armoured, up-engined and had it's electronics modernised, but it is still to all intents and purposes a Cent and the SADF treadheads at Tempe were pretty handy at using them - ask the Cubans and the Russians !

It was due to be replaced by the Olifant 2B, and when the terrs became the govt they ordered many of them.
However cash became a bit short when there are all those Swiss bank accunts to be filled, and this excellent design has been relegated to a test bed for future armour.
We'll see just how long money takes to filter through to the SANDF. - Top tip: Don't hold your breath !

The Olifant is still in use as the RSA's MBT now - or rather those that are currently maintained (:roll: ) are , and unless something very odd happens will remain so for a long time to come.
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Very interesting information Cuts. Thanks.

So they are still in service with SANDF - amazing. Do you know if the Centurion is still in service with Sweden and Denmark? As of mid-1990's they were (along with Jordan, Singapore and Israel).

Switzerland had used them into the late 1980's if I'm not mistaken.

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[Cuts]

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Very interesting information Cuts. Thanks.

So they are still in service with SANDF - amazing. Do you know if the Centurion is still in service with Sweden and Denmark? As of mid-1990's they were (along with Jordan, Singapore and Israel).

Switzerland had used them into the late 1980's if I'm not mistaken.

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The Danes binned their Cents maybe eighteen years back, and now use Leo 1A5 DK and Leo 2A4 (upgraded to 2A5.) The latter had a small tank battle in FRY during UNPROFOR, in fact I met one of the tankies from the unit involved when he was overseas and he gave me a good run down of the contact.

The remaining Swedish Cents are used for mobilisation only, the last crews being trained on that panzer in 2000.
Otherwise they have their Strv 121, (Leo 2A4,) and Strv 122 (Leo 2 improved) as MBTs.

The Swiss use the Pz87, (licence built Leo 2A5,) but have mounted a 140mm main armament.
I was fortunate enough to visit their MBT trg facility and they can now do the majority of their trg in simulators, a considerable saving on fuel, maintenance, etc.
They can 'field' a complete BG in the facility and a number of other countries, including the Germans and Swedes, send their crews to Thun for trg.

[George Eller]

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Very interesting information Cuts. Thanks.

So they are still in service with SANDF - amazing. Do you know if the Centurion is still in service with Sweden and Denmark? As of mid-1990's they were (along with Jordan, Singapore and Israel).

Switzerland had used them into the late 1980's if I'm not mistaken.

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The Danes binned their Cents maybe eighteen years back, and now use Leo 1A5 DK and Leo 2A4 (upgraded to 2A5.) The latter had a small tank battle in FRY during UNPROFOR, in fact I met one of the tankies from the unit involved when he was overseas and he gave me a good run down of the contact.

The remaining Swedish Cents are used for mobilisation only, the last crews being trained on that panzer in 2000.
Otherwise they have their Strv 121, (Leo 2A4,) and Strv 122 (Leo 2 improved) as MBTs.

The Swiss use the Pz87, (licence built Leo 2A5,) but have mounted a 140mm main armament.
I was fortunate enough to visit their MBT trg facility and they can now do the majority of their trg in simulators, a considerable saving on fuel, maintenance, etc.
They can 'field' a complete BG in the facility and a number of other countries, including the Germans and Swedes, send their crews to Thun for trg.

Thanks for the updates Cuts.

I didn't realize that the Danes retired their Centurions that long ago - oh well. Danish Centurions - Mk 3's upgraded to Mk 5 and Mk 5/2 standard. Approx 110 Mk 3 upgraded to Mk 5 standard retaining 20 pdr gun (83.4 mm) and approx 105 other Mk 3 converted to Mk 5/2 standard with 105 mm L7A3 rifled gun firing APFSDS-T, smoke, HESH and APDS ammunition types, an Ericsson laser rangefinder sight and 12.7 mm MG.

Swedish Centurions - Strv 81 (Mk 3/Mk 5 delivered early - mid 1950's), Strv 101 (approx 170 Mk 10 delivered 1960 upgunned with 105 mm L7 rifled guns and 8 mm MG's, fitted with turret direction indicator, American radios and new auxiliary engine), Strv 102 (approx 270 Strv 81's upgraded with over 110 minor changes made and fitting of 105 mm gun), Strv 104 (in the early 1980's the Strv 101 and Strv102 started further modernization programs involving the fitting of an Ericsson gunner's laser rangefinder sight, a Bofors integrated Tank Fire Control system, the 71 mm Lyran illuminating twin launcher system and an AVDS-1790-2DC 750 hp V-12 air-cooled diesel engine coupled to an Allison CD-850-6A automatic transmission.)

The Swiss Pz 87 (Swiss version of German Leopard 2) - first 35 built in Germany and delivered in 1987. The remaining were built under license in Switzerland (Swiss MG's, radios, etc.).

That is interesting about the 140 mm gun installation on the Pz 87 and their MBT training facility.

The Germans certainly have had success in marketing their Leopard 1 and 2 MBT's. Australia, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Germany, Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Switzerland, Turkey (maybe more?).

Most of the above is from "Battle Tanks and Support Vehicles", Alan K. Russell, Greenhill Books, London, 1994, (pp 34-40, 126-128).

I would like to post more on the Centurion, but it is getting late. I have much information - including more on the "Olifant" - but it may take a few days to pull it all together.

Again, thanks for the information. :D

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[Panzerknacker]

A really like the idea of the early Centurion in wich a fast firing canon is used as a secondary coaxial weapons, some times a AFV encounters targets wich could be destroyed by this means without the need of a heavy AP gun, like trucks, APCs, cars, motorcicles, etc.

http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/polsten1_AB_side_travel_pstn_in_barracks.jpg

[Topor]

A really like the idea of the early Centurion in wich a fast firing canon is used as a secondary coaxial weapons, some times a AFV encounters targets wich could be destroyed by this means without the need of a heavy AP gun, like trucks, APCs, cars, motorcicles, etc.

http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/polsten1_AB_side_travel_pstn_in_barracks.jpg

+1
Considering the limited supply of main gun ammunition a tank can carry, something similar to the Cent's original armament makes sense - even more so in the kind of combat that is being experienced today.

[Panzerknacker]

Exactly always seems to me ridicolous using a 88mm gun next to a 7,92 or 7.7mm Mg due the large balistic differences of those weapons, unfortunately this weapons layout has survive until our days in the MBT like the Abrams of Challenger. I would like see one of these with a coaxial 20-25mm gun.

Incidentally other tank wich use a large weapon as coaxil was the argentine Nahuel DL-43 (late 1943 design), in this the secondary gun was either a 20mm Madsen gun or a .50 caliber Browning.

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/1600/nahuel9nu.jpg

[George Eller]

Exactly always seems to me ridicolus using a 88mm gun next to a 7,92 or 7.7mm Mg due the large balistic effects of those weapons, unfortunately this weapons layout has survive until uor days in the MBT like the Abrams of Challenger. I wuld like see one of these with a coaxial 20-25mm gun.

Incidentally other tank wich use a large weapon as coaxil was the argentine Nahuel DL-43 (late 1943 design), in this the secondary gun was either a 20mm Madsen gun or a .50 caliber Browning.

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/1600/nahuel9nu.jpg
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Looks like a caricature of a Sherman almost. :)

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[FluffyBunnyGB]

Depends what you want your coaxial armament for though ........

If you want something useful for decimating advancing hordes of infantry, you might be better with a smaller calibre weapon such as an MMG, which has a high sustained rate of fire and for which you can carry plenty of ammo.

If you want to take on lighter vehicles, then a 20mm might be useful, but why not use the main armament?

A 20mm cannon such as POLSTEN or Oerlikon is drum or straight magazine fed, which means you'll only get a shortish burst out before you have to reload. Under almost any circumstance, you're just as knacked if you're hit by a 7.62 round as a 20mm so why not use the lighter weapon?

The modern BMP 3 has a 100 mm main armament and a coaxial 30 mm, but those guns are designed for different things. The 100 mm fires HE and also serves as a launcher for the AT 10 STABBER missile, but with a fairly low MV (250 m/s). Although the missile can be used against slow-moving helicopters, the 30 mm is much better for this sort of thing.

The BMP 3 still then has a 7.62 mm coaxial MG for use against infantry.

[2nd of foot]

The use of Coax on British tank is for ranging. The Besa followed by the .5 were ballisticly matched to the main gun.

The firing procedure would be something like, estimate range then a 3 round burst, if over drop, if under add. Another burst followed by a big bang.

This method was still in use on the Chieftain till the introduction of lasers and still as a back up. Other countries used range finders but the Brit thought this was quicker.

The chieftain’s commander had a GPMG fitted to the cupola that could be aimed and fired from inside.

There is an incident in Korea (Royal Irish Hussars?) who shot Chinese troops off each other’s tanks as the carried out a fighting withdrawal.

I was told a joke a long time ago about IDF infantry carrying 2BL hammers. They would run up to enemy tanks and hit it 3 times on the side. The crew thinking that they have been spotted and ranged would bale out because they new that a 105 round was on the way.

[Panzerknacker]

Looks like a caricature of a Sherman almost.

Actually the Nahuel was a very superior tank with a more heavy front armor, the canon was pretty much the same as the 75mm Sherman.

The use of Coax on British tank is for ranging. The Besa followed by the .5 were ballisticly matched to the main gun.

The firing procedure would be something like, estimate range then a 3 round burst, if over drop, if under add. Another burst followed by a big bang

Actually I have seen a video of the Centurion using the .50 caliber to aim, very simple idea, also in case to be needed the heavy MG can sweep the infantry at more range than the .30/7,92mm caliber.

[2nd of foot]

also in case to be needed the heavy MG can sweep the infantry at more range than the .30/7,92mm caliber.

If you are engaging troops with a .5 at long range (1000+m) you are going to waste a lot of ammo. You will get a better beaten zone with a 7.62 or .30. it may sound good and look fine and is very good on light vehicles but for area the MMG is better. And any range over tracer burn out is wasting ammo.

[George Eller]

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More on the Centurion Tank
Histories and Variants:

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/8189/01centurioncaiti1978016lf.jpg
01-Centurion-Caiti-1978-01
Modern Armor: A Comprehensive Guide, Pierangelo Caiti, Squadron Signal Publications, 1978, p 92
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http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/373/02centurioncaiti1978020mq.jpg
02-Centurion-Caiti-1978-02
Modern Armor: A Comprehensive Guide, Pierangelo Caiti, Squadron Signal Publications, 1978, p 93
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http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/2415/03centurioncaiti1978038tb.jpg
03-Centurion-Caiti-1978-03
Modern Armor: A Comprehensive Guide, Pierangelo Caiti, Squadron Signal Publications, 1978, p 94
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http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/201/04centurioncaiti1978045pg.jpg
04-Centurion-Caiti-1978-04
Modern Armor: A Comprehensive Guide, Pierangelo Caiti, Squadron Signal Publications, 1978, p 95
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http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/6311/05centurioncaiti1978051ia.jpg
05-Centurion-Caiti-1978-05
Modern Armor: A Comprehensive Guide, Pierangelo Caiti, Squadron Signal Publications, 1978, p 96
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http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/5049/06centurioncaiti1978062ud.jpg
06-Centurion-Caiti-1978-06
Modern Armor: A Comprehensive Guide, Pierangelo Caiti, Squadron Signal Publications, 1978, p 97
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http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/2703/07centurionmkiii010jf.jpg
07-Centurion-MkIII-01
Tank Versus Tank, Kenneth Macksey, Salem House Publishers, 1988, pp164-165
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http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/6946/08centurionjanes1976019ej.jpg
08-Centurion-Janes-1976-01
Jane's Pocket Book of Modern Tanks and Armored Fighting Vehicles, Christopher Foss, Macmillan Publishing, 1976, p 20
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http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/7867/09centurionjanes1976029pc.jpg
09-Centurion-Janes-1976-02
Jane's Pocket Book of Modern Tanks and Armored Fighting Vehicles, Christopher Foss, Macmillan Publishing, 1976, p 21
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http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/7682/10centurionfoss1977019pw.jpg
10-Centurion-Foss-1977-01
Armoured Fighting Vehicles of the World, Christopher Foss, Charles Scribner's Sons, 1977, p 63
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http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/3177/11centurionfoss1977029ly.jpg
11-Centurion-Foss-1977-02
Armoured Fighting Vehicles of the World, Christopher Foss, Charles Scribner's Sons, 1977, p 64
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http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/4048/12centurionfoss1977031yl.jpg
12-Centurion-Foss-1977-03
Armoured Fighting Vehicles of the World, Christopher Foss, Charles Scribner's Sons, 1977, p 65
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http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/2396/13centurionfoss1977048oo.jpg
13-Centurion-Foss-1977-04
Armoured Fighting Vehicles of the World, Christopher Foss, Charles Scribner's Sons, 1977, p 66
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http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/9268/14centurionjanes1987013hd.jpg
14-Centurion-Janes-1987-01
Jane's AFV Recognition Handbook, Christopher Foss, Jane's Publishing Company Ltd, 1987, p 33
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http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/346/15centurionjanes1987021ox.jpg
15-Centurion-Janes-1987-02
Jane's AFV Recognition Handbook, Christopher Foss, Jane's Publishing Company Ltd, 1987, p 34
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http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/3301/16centurionjanes1987030hk.jpg
16-Centurion-Janes-1987-03
Jane's AFV Recognition Handbook, Christopher Foss, Jane's Publishing Company Ltd, 1987, p 35
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http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/881/17centurionobservers1987019dl.jpg
17-Centurion-Observers-1987-01
Tanks and Other Armoured Vehicles, Charles Messenger, Frederick Warne & Co., 1987, pp 106-107
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http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/5015/18centurionccg1988012cf.jpg
18-Centurion-CCG-1988-01
Modern Fighting Vehicles, Bob Lewis, Longmeadow Press, 1988, pp 66-67
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http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/2250/19centurioncombatsurvival19910.jpg
19-Centurion-Combat-Survival-1991-01
Combat and Survival, Volume 11, H.S. Stuttman, Inc., Aerospace Publishing, ISBN 0-87475-560-3, 1991, p 645
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http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/5585/20centurionjanes1992014se.jpg
20-Centurion-Janes-1992-01
Jane's AFV Recognition Handbook: Second Edition, Christopher Foss, Jane's Information Group Ltd., 1992, p 36
-

http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/4913/21centurionjanes1992025cp.jpg
21-Centurion-Janes-1992-02
Jane's AFV Recognition Handbook: Second Edition, Christopher Foss, Jane's Information Group Ltd., 1992, p 37
-

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/2885/22centurionjanes1992030al.jpg
22-Centurion-Janes-1992-03
Jane's AFV Recognition Handbook: Second Edition, Christopher Foss, Jane's Information Group Ltd., 1992, p 38
-

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/7767/23centuriongreenhill1994015py.jpg
23-Centurion-Greenhill-1994-01
Battle Tanks and Support Vehicles, Alan K. Russell, Greenhill Books, 1994, p 126
-

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/321/24centuriongreenhill1994022vs.jpg
24-Centurion-Greenhill-1994-02
Battle Tanks and Support Vehicles, Alan K. Russell, Greenhill Books, 1994, p 127
-

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/3315/25centuriongreenhill1994036af.jpg
25-Centurion-Greenhill-1994-03
Battle Tanks and Support Vehicles, Alan K. Russell, Greenhill Books, 1994, p 128
-

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/4529/26centuriongreenhill1994040bq.jpg
26-Centurion-Greenhill-1994-04
Battle Tanks and Support Vehicles, Alan K. Russell, Greenhill Books, 1994, p 129


---


South African Centurions - The Olifant:

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/9082/centurionsa017mf.jpg
Centurion-SA-01
Battle Tanks and Support Vehicles, Alan K. Russell, Greenhill Books, 1994, p 78
-

http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/858/centurionsa021ju.jpg
Centurion-SA-02
Battle Tanks and Support Vehicles, Alan K. Russell, Greenhill Books, 1994, p 79
-

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/3167/centurionsa030mn.jpg
Centurion-SA-03
South African War Machine, Helmoed-Romer Heitman, Presidio, 1985, p 123
-

http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/5193/centurionsa040dl.jpg
Centurion-SA-04
South African War Machine, Helmoed-Romer Heitman, Presidio, 1985, p 128
-

http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/6140/centurionsa053cu.jpg
Centurion-SA-05
-

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/5079/centurionsa061hu.jpg
Centurion-SA-06
South African War Machine, Helmoed-Romer Heitman, Presidio, 1985, p 44
-

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/2463/centurionsa079wl.jpg
Centurion-SA-07
Tanks at War, Peter Darman, Motor Books International, 1996, p 65
-

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/3646/centurionsa086mr.jpg
Centurion-SA-08
Tanks at War, Peter Darman, Motor Books International, 1996, p 66
-

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/962/centurionsa092ve.jpg
Centurion-SA-09
Tanks at War, Peter Darman, Motor Books International, 1996, p 67
-

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/9538/centurionsa109uv.jpg
Centurion-SA-10
Tanks at War, Peter Darman, Motor Books International, 1996, pp 66-67
-

http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/2617/centurionsa115xw.jpg
Centurion-SA-11
Tanks at War, Peter Darman, Motor Books International, 1996, p 68



---



Centurion AVRE:

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/7043/centurionavre0015ej.jpg
Centurion-AVRE-001
Combat and Survival, Volume 20, H.S. Stuttman, Inc., Aerospace Publishing, ISBN 0-87475-560-3, 1991, pp 1174-1175
-

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/1524/centurionavre012mn.jpg
Centurion-AVRE-01
Combat and Survival, Volume 20, H.S. Stuttman, Inc., Aerospace Publishing, ISBN 0-87475-560-3, 1991, p 1174
-

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/8964/centurionavre024dm.jpg
Centurion-AVRE-02
Combat and Survival, Volume 20, H.S. Stuttman, Inc., Aerospace Publishing, ISBN 0-87475-560-3, 1991, p 1175
-

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/8053/centurionavre038jr.jpg
Centurion-AVRE-03
Combat and Survival, Volume 20, H.S. Stuttman, Inc., Aerospace Publishing, ISBN 0-87475-560-3, 1991, p 1176
-

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/7103/centurionavre046ym.jpg
Centurion-AVRE-04
Combat and Survival, Volume 20, H.S. Stuttman, Inc., Aerospace Publishing, ISBN 0-87475-560-3, 1991, p 1177
-

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/1278/centurionavre04a0yp.jpg
Centurion-AVRE-04A
Combat and Survival, Volume 20, H.S. Stuttman, Inc., Aerospace Publishing, ISBN 0-87475-560-3, 1991, pp1176-1177
-

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/6343/centurionavre054yc.jpg
Centurion-AVRE-05
Combat and Survival, Volume 20, H.S. Stuttman, Inc., Aerospace Publishing, ISBN 0-87475-560-3, 1991, p 1178
-

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/4416/centurionavre068qm.jpg
Centurion-AVRE-06
Combat and Survival, Volume 20, H.S. Stuttman, Inc., Aerospace Publishing, ISBN 0-87475-560-3, 1991, p 1179
-

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/7339/centurionavre079mn.jpg
Centurion-AVRE-07
Tanks at War, Peter Darman, Motor Books International, 1996, p 69
-

http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/825/centurionavre086is.jpg
Centurion-AVRE-08
Tanks at War, Peter Darman, Motor Books International, 1996, p 70
-

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/1135/centurionavre092mc.jpg
Centurion-AVRE-09
Tanks at War, Peter Darman, Motor Books International, 1996, p 71
-

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/9633/centurionavre107db.jpg
Centurion-AVRE-10
Tanks at War, Peter Darman, Motor Books International, 1996, p 72


---


I plan to add more information - next Israeli Variants of the Centurion - under a separate post. It may take about a week or more to pull everything together in my spare time.

-

[2nd of foot]

If you would like more Cent pictures then these two are very good for AVRE

http://tanxheaven.com/cent/fv4003avre165mm/11ba46/fv4003avre11ba46.htm

http://www.armouredengineers.co.uk/photose.htm

And in the last link at the end in happy snaps there is a nice pic of some sappers cooking on the engine decks.

[Panzerknacker]

Very nice as usual George...I really like this pic :twisted:

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/4529/26centuriongreenhill1994040bq.jpg

[George Eller]

Very nice as usual George...I really like this pic :twisted:

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/4529/26centuriongreenhill1994040bq.jpg

Thanks Panzerknacker. :D

I would have liked to seen the "before and after" they took care of business. :lol:

-
If you would like more Cent pictures then these two are very good for AVRE

http://tanxheaven.com/cent/fv4003avre165mm/11ba46/fv4003avre11ba46.htm

http://www.armouredengineers.co.uk/photose.htm

And in the last link at the end in happy snaps there is a nice pic of some sappers cooking on the engine decks.

Nice pics "2nd of foot". Great interior shots too. Thanks for the links. :D

A few from the many that I would like to post:

From Tanxheaven site:
http://tanxheaven.com/cent/fv4003avre165mm/11ba46/fv4003avre11ba46.htm

http://tanxheaven.com/cent/fv4003avre165mm/11ba46/dot%203469.jpg

http://tanxheaven.com/cent/fv4003avre165mm/11ba46/CNV00012.JPG
-

Centurion AVRE 165mm with fascine bundle on cradle

http://tanxheaven.com/cent/fv4003avre165mm/11ba46/CNV00040.jpg

http://tanxheaven.com/cent/fv4003avre165mm/11ba46/dot%203523.jpg
-

From Royal Engineers Association site:
http://www.armouredengineers.co.uk/photose.htm

Centurion AVRE 165mm:

On tank transporter

http://www.armouredengineers.co.uk/photos/1014.jpg
-

In the Middle East

http://www.armouredengineers.co.uk/photos/1020.jpg
-

With fascine bundle on cradle

http://www.armouredengineers.co.uk/photos/1013.jpg

http://www.armouredengineers.co.uk/photos/1016.jpg
-


After emptying fascine cradle and depositing fascines

http://www.armouredengineers.co.uk/photos/1015.jpg
-

Using dozer blade

http://www.armouredengineers.co.uk/photos/1019.jpg
-

Undergoing maintenance

http://www.armouredengineers.co.uk/photos/1017.jpg
-

Centurion Bridgelayer

http://www.armouredengineers.co.uk/photos/2032.jpg

http://www.armouredengineers.co.uk/photos/2031.jpg

http://www.armouredengineers.co.uk/photos/2030.jpg
-

Happy Snaps - Cooking

http://www.armouredengineers.co.uk/photos/5024.jpg

-

[George Eller]

-

I will have to correct myself on the previous post. I think that these are actually Centurion AVRE 165mm with Class 60 roadway (trackway mat) on cradle.

http://tanxheaven.com/cent/fv4003avre165mm/11ba46/CNV00040.jpg


http://www.armouredengineers.co.uk/photos/1016.jpg

-

[Timbo in Oz]

aaah yes, the Aussie 20-pder Centurions.

I was behind one when we were doing - 'coop'n with armour' - on a firing range

I was 'on the phone', my skipper was a bit further back with P'n hq, we were moving, simulators going off everywhere around and I faintly heard 'action armour front' or something like that,

and the turrte traversed crew fired off a HESH round, and the blast was pretty serious. and the dust. Which, once settled .......

they fired an APDS round! ....... @ > twice the MV ~5000fps

Faarrrrrrkkkkk! I was all but knocked over!

SEVERAL times louder than when firing a KarlGustav, I can tell you.

[FluffyBunnyGB]

Following on from Timbo's tale, let me tell a tale of the CENTURION then, involving a senior instructor of gunnery (IG) at the Royal School of Artillery (now retired) who we shall call Big Vern in the interests on anonymity ......

This was recounted to me by his driver of the time, who ended up as my MT Sgt some years later.

Back when Big Vern was a fairly junior FOO in the 1970s, the Royal Artillery was still using CENTURION as an OP vehicle so the FOO party could keep up with armoured units using CHIEFTAN tanks.

Unlike the WARRIOR OP vehicles used nowadays, the CENTURION still had it's main armament intact. A point to note for what follows.

Out on the ranges in Germany one day, with Big Vern's Field Gun Battery on a live firing artillery excercise, an IG jumped up onto the back of Big Vern's tank and told him to shell the farmouse, middle left at 2,000 m or some such.

Quick as a flash, Big Vern shouted "gunner, traverse left, farmouse, 2,000m, HESH, fire!" (or whatever the correct sequence is ....)

As the IG picked himself up, slightly deafened. from the engine deck, where he'd been flung by the muzzle blast, he belaboured Big Vern about the helmet with his clipboard, shouting "I meant with your Battery, you c**t!".

[George Eller]

-

Sorry for being slightly off topic, but I noticed this article at the Strategy Page website. Australia appears to be buying American M-1A1 tanks to replace some of their German Leopards. I believe the Leopards had previously replaced the Centurion.

The Australian Centurions did well during the Vietnam Conflict from what I've read.

-

Abrams in Oz
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htarm/articles/20060427.aspx

April 27, 2006: Australia has purchased 59 refurbished American M-1 tanks for $8 million each (including lots of ancillary equipment and spares). The M-1A1 tanks will replace German Leopards, which are nearing the end of their useful life. The 59 tanks are enough for one tank battalion which, with the addition of two mechanized infantry battalions and some support units, would produce one mechanized brigade. This would be the largest unit Australia would be expected to send overseas. Australia, due to its size and location, does not anticipate being invaded by a hostile armored force. So the M-1s would be mainly for any overseas operations.

There are other reasons for getting M-1s. First, there is reputation. For fifteen years, the M-1 has demonstrated clear battlefield superiority. There is nothing on the horizon that can match it. Then there is the compatibility angle. Australia and the United States are close allies. If Australia gets into an overseas scrape, it will probably be as an American ally. Thus Australian M-1s would have an easier time getting supplies and spares. Another angle is that Australia might not even have to send its M-1s overseas. If the Australian mechanized brigade was relieving an American brigade, the Australians could, as American units currently do, just send the crews to man the tanks of the troops returning home.

The 59 Australian M-1s are expected to serve about twenty years.

-

[Hiddenrug]

Yes. Australia has already ordered thier 59 M1A1 Abrams. I saw one a couple of weeks ago. Some Leopards will stay in force.

Centurion tanks were used in WWII especially in the final months although they were over shadowed by the Grant, Sherman and the Panther, Tiger and others.

[Cuts]

I always thought they came in far too late to be involved in action, I'd be interested to hear any stories about their contacts with the Tigers and Panthers.

[George Eller]

-

According to what I've read, the first six produced were delivered in May 1945 and rushed to Germany for testing in combat conditions with the 22nd Armoured Brigade, but hostilities had ceased by the time they arrived.
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=82383&postcount=6

-

[Doug 1956]

Talking BARVs, the last M3 Medium in service anywhere was probably a BARV version with the Royal Australian Armoured Corps, used (for training) until 1972.

Talking Centurions and WW2, yes, some made it to troop trials, but then again would anyone argue that troop trials constitutes service?

Seeing how the Brits were just able to get some - not a huge number - of Comets into service, and kept Comets in service until 1962 in Berlin and Hong Kong in 'trip wire' units, that is just good enough to have to be knocked out, but also good enough so that if they are knocked out it means the enemy is serious; the Comet was really the ultimate Brit tank of WW2.

If they had really wanted to expend the energy and effort they could have gotten Black Princes into combat in Europe, and these would have been useful for the slogging through Japanese home island defences if armed with a 94mm howitzer rather than the 17pdr.

[2nd of foot]

Some is a little bit of an understatement. 11 armoured was fully equipped with them as well as a number of other regiments if not the complete div.

[W MENARD]

HELLO

My name is Wayne and I was with the Royal Canadian Armoured Corps in the 60s and 70s. I was a Driver Gunner and Radio operator/loader on the Centurion tanks both in Canada and in Europe during the Cold War. I have first hand knowledge of performance and capabilities of the Beast.

Wayne

[Panzerknacker]

Is this epigraph true ?

seems hard to believe, more than ten hours to change an engine. :shock:

[Nickdfresh]

I think you mean 12 in a garage and 18 in the field....

That does seem lengthy, but I think she rarely needed such care...

[Panzerknacker]

Sounds like awfully long time, surely more than a Panther and 10 times more than a modern MBT, actually I believe that the diesel engine in a Leopard II could be changed in less than an hour.

[tankgeezer]

I dont know how the time frame will line up, but the M-60 series, and maybe earlier american tanks too, were a quick change set up. the 60, took about45 mins. to remove, change the oil, (23 gals.) and re-install if one's nose was to the grindstone.(and no one screwed up. ) Basically, there were two large bolts at the rear of the pack, (engine -transmission) that held the two in. there were 2-3 electrical connectors, and the brake/steering linkage,fuel disconnect, and the final drive splines. The bottleneck was getting the M-88 driver to come over to do the lifting work for the deck, and the pack.

[pdf27]

I can believe it - British machines of the time were rarely designed with maintainability and ease of mass production in mind. Some aero engines for instance apparently had metric, Imperial and Whitworth bolts in the same engine...

[Nickdfresh]

I dont know how the time frame will line up, but the M-60 series, and maybe earlier american tanks too, were a quick change set up. the 60, took about45 mins. to remove, change the oil, (23 gals.) and re-install if one's nose was to the grindstone.(and no one screwed up. ) Basically, there were two large bolts at the rear of the pack, (engine -transmission) that held the two in. there were 2-3 electrical connectors, and the brake/steering linkage,fuel disconnect, and the final drive splines. The bottleneck was getting the M-88 driver to come over to do the lifting work for the deck, and the pack.

I have an interest in this sort of thing actually, and I wonder what kind of oil those things would have taken...

15W40?

[105]

HELLO

My name is Wayne and I was with the Royal Canadian Armoured Corps in the 60s and 70s. I was a Driver Gunner and Radio operator/loader on the Centurion tanks both in Canada and in Europe during the Cold War. I have first hand knowledge of performance and capabilities of the Beast.

Wayne

Welcome Wayne,
I am new to the forum also and have been looking in books and on the internet for information on what I think to be one of the greatest tanks ever.
The Centurion has been in use in some form or other for 63 years so it must have been pretty good tank to start with. Looking forward to asking you and others on this forum alot of questions and learning alot.

[Drake]

Sounds like awfully long time, surely more than a Panther and 10 times more than a modern MBT, actually I believe that the diesel engine in a Leopard II could be changed in less than an hour.

Should take no more than 30 minutes, that's imho the bundeswehr Richtwert (benchmark). Basically all you need to do is unscrew and use the crane of a bergepanzer to lift the whole block out of the chassis (and vice versa). It's not just the engine but also the gearing in one box, so no fiddling there.

[nazblue]

The use of Coax on British tank is for ranging. The Besa followed by the .5 were ballisticly matched to the main gun.

The firing procedure would be something like, estimate range then a 3 round burst, if over drop, if under add. Another burst followed by a big bang.

This method was still in use on the Chieftain till the introduction of lasers and still as a back up. Other countries used range finders but the Brit thought this was quicker.

The chieftain’s commander had a GPMG fitted to the cupola that could be aimed and fired from inside.

There is an incident in Korea (Royal Irish Hussars?) who shot Chinese troops off each other’s tanks as the carried out a fighting withdrawal.

I was told a joke a long time ago about IDF infantry carrying 2BL hammers. They would run up to enemy tanks and hit it 3 times on the side. The crew thinking that they have been spotted and ranged would bale out because they new that a 105 round was on the way.

New to this forum. I don't see any posts from ex Centurion crews. Your quite right about using the co-ax as a ranger although this was not used that often. I was a Centurion Mk 5 gunner in the Middle East around Suez time. The reasons we loved this tank were...reasonably comfortable, well armored, reliable and one thing that doesn't seem to have been mentioned it was the first tank in the world to be able to fire really accurately at speed by it's gyro stabilising system...Loved it.

[nazblue]

I stand corrected there are obviously a couple of posts who have experience life with the Cent. Perhaps I should have said Brits?

:tank:

[nazblue]

From a tank gunner's point of view I believe at the time the contemporary American tanks used a range finder whereas we relied on simple gunnery techniques. At the time this was superior and in trials we always hit the enemy quicker than anyone else. We would have laid down three apds rounds before anyone else had opened fire and providing the lateral lay of the gun was good you had a hit. The technique was to open up at 800yards immaterial of what the range was then up 200 drop 400. This had three rounds traveling at 3650 fps 6ft, 9ft and 12ft. Simple but very effective.

One little anecdote thinking of what someone wrote earlier about tanks in Korea shooting infantry off each others tanks.....I was on the ranges in N.Africa doing live firing on the move with the co-ax when the stabiliser system failed, the tank did a quick turn and because I couldn't traverse fast enough and I was still firing I sprayed the Colonels tank, only a few rounds but he was not amused.

:tank:

[gunner-B]

Though this has been a very intresting thread about the best post war tank, (and probably the best of all time to date) we shouldn,t forget that the best tank also had the best tank gun of its day; the L7 105 mm which at one point was the main armament on all the leading NATO tanks in Europe.