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Panzerknacker
02-28-2006, 06:28 PM
Panzerbüchse 38


("Tank Rifle"), often abbreviated as PzB 38, conceived by Dipl.-Ing. (certified engineer) B. Brauer and built by the Gustloff-Werke in Suhl. It was a manually loaded single shot weapon with moving barrel. When fired, the barrel recoiled about 9cm, which opened the breech and expelled the spent cartridge. The breech block was then arrested in the rear position, leabing an opening for the gunner to manually insert a new cartridge. The gunner then released the cocked breech with a lever at the grip. breech and barrel then glide forward again and the trigger is cocked. The weapon is ready to fire again. This rather complicated mechansim was reportedly prone to jamming if the system got dirty in field use.
The weapon uses the bipod found on the MG 34; the shoulder plate is rubber-cushioned and can be folded to the right for ease of transportation. Although manufactered with pressed steel parts that were spot-welded, still because of the complicated vertical block breech mechanism it was difficult to manufacture and only the small number of 1408 PzB 38 was built from 1939 to 1940 at the company Gustloff Co. Waffenfabrik in Suhl; 62 of these weapons had been used by the german troops in the invasion of Poland 1939. As soon as the successor PzB 39 was available immediately production was switched over to the new type. The weapon had an overall length of 161.5 cm (129cm with the stock folded for transportation) and a barrel (4 grooves rs) length of 108.5 cm. Total weight (incl. bipod and carrying sling) 16.2 kg, weight of barrel (incl muzzle brake) 6.14kg; Vo using the Patrone 318 was 1,210m/s which made for a penetration of 30mm at 100m.


http://ww2photo.mimerswell.com/vapen/d/antitank/05238.jpg

Panzerknacker
02-28-2006, 09:34 PM
Panzerbüchse 39

http://www.pkymasehist.fi/pzb39_2.jpg

This 8mm gun featured a vertical breech block mechanism. It had an overall length of 162.0 cm; weight was reduced to 12.6 kg. It's performance data was basically the same as that of the PzB 38.

Pzb 39 with the grip forward (open chamber)

http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/6509/pzb7qq.jpg

To increase the practical rate of fire, two cartridge-holding cases containing 10 rounds each could be attached to both sides of the weapon near the breech - these were not magazines feeding the weapon, they simply enabled the gunner to extract the cartridges (that he still had to manually insert into the gun) from the conveniently placed magazines.

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/4016/fuciondeguies5rg.jpg

568 PzB 39 were used by the german army in the invasion of Poland; two years later, at the beginning of the war against russia, 25,298 PzB 39 were in use by german troops; total production form March 1940 to November 1941, when production ceased, was 39,232 rifles.


This ammunition was called Patrone 318, the full official designation was Patrone 318 SmK-Rs- L'spur or Patrone 318 SmKH -Rs-L'spur, whereas "Patrone" means "cartridge", 318 was an inversion of 813 that stood for an 8,2 mm bullet in a 13mm casing.

The 7,92x94 mm round.

http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/6701/patronptrsmall7xo.jpg

SmK meant "Spitzgeschoss mit Kern" ("pointed bullet with core"), SmK(H) = "Spitzgeschoss mit Kern (Hart)" ("pointed bullet with core (hard) meant the same projectile that featured a tungsten-carbide core, Rs stood for "Reizstoff" ("irritant agent") because the projectile also contained a small amount of tear gas, L'spur for "Leuchtspur" ("bright trace" = "tracer") indicating the bullet had a small tracer in its rear.

http://www.antitank.co.uk/images/Pzb39.jpg

In the todays point of view it seems incredible that such a small caliber was chosen, but in 1939 with the majority of the tanks with armor ranging from 10-25 mm it look like a razonable choice.

At a typical Vo of slightly over 1,200m/s the projectile penetrated 30mm of steel at a range of 100m and still up to 20mm at 300m (both at 0° slope) and was accepted as the standard anti-tank rifle ammunition to be used by all weapons of that type. The irritant agent in the projectile was a ridiculous idea that envisioned to make the crew of the hit target leave their vehicle or otherwise impair them to a degree of battleunworthiness; however, the tear gas pellet in the projectile was so little that the irritant agent was never noticed by enemy crews; in fact, it wasn't discovered by the allies until after captured ammunition was examined.
Production of the Patrone 318 ran until August 1942.

Paratroopers in france in 1940, the Pzb 39 at the shoulder.

http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/5853/paracaidistas4bx.jpg

Technical data:
Overall length: 162cm;
barrel length 108.5cm;
total weight (incl. bipod and carrying sling but no magazines)
12.6kg; weight empty 11.6kg; total weight of magazine (loaded) 1.09kg; weight magazine (empty) 0.25kg; practical rate of fire: 10 shots/min. Ammunition:

Patrone 318; Vo 1,210 m/s; armor penetration 30mm of homogeneus plate at 100m with the Tugsten core and 28 mm with the steel core bullet.

Some of these rifles were mounted in armored vehicles such as the Sd.Kfz 222 and the enginners vehicle Sd.Kfz 251/7

http://www.ostpanzer.nm.ru/articles/sdkfz221/i/02.jpg


----------

FW-190 Pilot
03-06-2006, 04:21 AM
is there any record that this kind of rifles actually can destroy or at least disable armoured cars/tanks?

Panzerknacker
03-06-2006, 04:56 PM
I think that the right word is "disable" and yes the 8mm Panzerbuchsen can disable all the allied armored cars and some light tanks of the 1939-41 period like the Cruiser A-14, T-26, T-60, and the Vickers lights.
There is no a exact figure.


The germans used also a small number of others desings including some foreigns ones , I have to continue this topic but today I dont have the time :evil:


http://homepage.tinet.ie/~nightingale/graphics/pzb39.jpg

HG
03-14-2006, 08:11 PM
Great info mate and realy great research. Nice pics to.

Keep it up mate.

The deploying of that grenade looks a bit difficult to do. :lol:

Henk

HG
03-21-2006, 01:19 PM
I would not want to carry that heavy thing.

Henk

Panzerknacker
03-26-2006, 02:06 PM
20mm rifles

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/3112/st53mq.gif

Most of this designs were made by the Rheinmetall owned swiss factory of Solothurn, this facility was employed in the late 20s and mid 30s as for the insvestigation on small arms.

Solothurn , introduced the self-loading S18-100 series (the numbers of the variants went up to S18-500) in a unique 20 x 105B calibre. The gun was gas-operated and this round was later used to develop an aircraft cannon, the Lb 204, although by the time this was adopted for use in German naval aircraft as the MG 204 the case design had been changed slightly to a rimless 20 x 105.

http://img464.imageshack.us/img464/9682/solos1006np.jpg

The tipes of ammo:

http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/5870/204projos0015wy.jpg


The S-18-100 had a muzzle speed of 750 M/s and it could penetrate 30mm of armor at 200 meters distance. This rifle weights 42 kg and was nearly 2 meters long, it was feed from the side by 5 or 10 rounds magazines. Only a few of these were actually used by the german army under the designacion of 2cm Tankbüchse S-18, the gun simply did not fit in the "blitzkrieg" concept, in the end much smaller antiarmor weapons were used instead.

S-18-100 in use in Holland 1940.

http://img459.imageshack.us/img459/1140/s189mt.gif

100 rifles were also used by Finland ans some more by Hungary.

George Eller
04-02-2006, 05:35 PM
-

Solothurn S18-100 anti-tank rifle:

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/5205/solothurns1810002hz.jpg
-

http://img289.imageshack.us/img289/281/solothurns181000017rr.jpg

-

Panzerknacker
04-03-2006, 06:03 PM
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/5205/solothurns1810002hz.jpg

George , the caption in that picture is slightly wrong, the gun is a S-18-100 not a S-18-1000, the diference was that the earlier use a 20x105mm caliber and the model 1000 used a 20x138B mm caliber wich was compatible with the german 2cm Flak 30/38 and the 20mm Breda/Scotti used by the Italians. Check the muzzle brake and the ausence of gas port in the upper barrel.

George Eller
04-03-2006, 09:41 PM
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/5205/solothurns1810002hz.jpg

George , the caption in that picture is slightly wrong, the gun is a S-18-100 not a S-18-1000, the diference was that the earlier use a 20x105mm caliber and the model 1000 used a 20x138B mm caliber wich was compatible with the german 2cm Flak 30/38 and the 20mm Breda/Scotti used by the Italians. Check the muzzle brake and the ausence of gas port in the upper barrel.
-

Panzerknaker, your right - it appears to be incorrectly captioned as an S-18-1000.
However, it may not be an S-18-100 either.

When I originally posted the image, I noticed that it looked different from the picture that I posted below it.
I just assumed it to be a possible difference between German and Italian models.

But now I am wondering if it may actually be an "ST 5".
Notice the size of the grips, trigger guard and the muzzle shapes.

What do you think? See below:


THE S18/1000-1100 SOLOTHURN 20mm ANTI-TANK RIFLE
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.amsd.ch/pictures/S18/S18-WEB.gif&imgrefurl=
http://www.amsd.ch/s18/main-s18-solothurn.html&h=140&w=600&sz=
28&tbnid=JcO-MdPyoLbrtM:&tbnh=31&tbnw=133&hl=en&start=1&prev=
/images%3Fq%3D%2B%2522solothurn%2Bs18%2B1000%2522%2 6svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG

THE S18/1000 HISTORY
http://www.amsd.ch/s18/s18-history.html
-

ST 5 THE ANCESTOR
http://www.amsd.ch/pictures/s18/ST5-0000-640.gif
http://www.amsd.ch/pictures/s18/ST5-0000-640.gif
-

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/5205/solothurns1810002hz.jpg
-

S18-100 LEFT SIDE
http://www.amsd.ch/pictures/S18/S18-0052-1000.jpg
http://www.amsd.ch/pictures/S18/S18-0052-1000.jpg
-

2cm Panzerbuchse Solothurn S18-1000 anti-tank
http://ww2photo.mimerswell.com/vapen/d/antitank/05209.jpg
http://ww2photo.mimerswell.com/vapen/d/antitank/05209.jpg
-

THE S18/1000 AMMUNITION
http://www.amsd.ch/s18/s18-ammunition.html

-

Panzerknacker
04-04-2006, 09:13 PM
It looks clealy like a ST 5 the muzzle brake is mi guide. 8)

Panzerknacker
04-11-2006, 10:04 PM
Two aditional pics for the heavy Solo S-18-1000.

In transport.

http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/1567/solothurm17ek.jpg


In firing emplacement.

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/6493/solothurn2kw.jpg


The ammo used (20x138B)


AP phosforous.

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/7313/14oa1.jpg


Ap tugsten core ( very rare, reserved for the AFVs)

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/9004/pzg409lt.jpg


Explosive with incendiary and self destruct.

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/420/30nq.jpg

Panzerknacker
05-17-2006, 08:00 PM
The massive 20mm Solothurn S-18-100 in the hands of a estonian volunteer.

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/6272/solo7kw.jpg


This gun could penetrate a russian T-26 up to 400 meters range.

Lancer44
05-19-2006, 12:24 AM
This information is relevant to the topic:

Panzerbüchse 35(p) / PzB 770(p)

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/9798/pzb35p0wl.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The Polish Maroszek WZ 35 had been conceived and developed by Lt.Col. T. Felsztyn and the engineer Jósef Maroszek in the early 1930ies. First trials in late 1935 proved unsuccessful, because the extremely stressed barrel endured only about 20 shots. After intensive research and testing an almost perfect relation between ammunition characteristics and barrel construction was reached. The new weapon had a life expectancy of 300 shots. It was integrated into the army in November 1935, simulated battles showed a more than satisfying performance as an anti-tank rifle.
However, the rifle was considered so important that a strict veil of secrecy was put over the whole project, and the delivery crates - containig one Maroszek WZ 35, three replacement barrels and three full ammo magazines - were sealed with the strict order that the seal was only to be broken under direct orders of the defense minister. Until July 1938 only a very restricted and select group of people (again under strict nondisclosure - orders) - mostly military commanders of different command levels - was shown the weapon. The result was that in many cases the soldiers that were to use it didn't even see the weapon before WW II started with the german invasion of Poland! Due to all this, this reasonably performing weapon saw only very limited use in the Polish war against the attacking germans; many Polish soldiers ended the short German invasion of Poland still ignorant of the weapon!
The Germans captured considerable numbers of these weapons still unissued in the armories and storages; it received the German designation Panzerbüchse 35(p) ("Tank Rifle", the suffix "p" for "polnisch") - abbreviated as PzB 35(p) - but was also called Panzerbüchse 770(p) and was issued to german troops. Some of the weapons were also given to and employed by italian troops. At least 630 of these polish tank rifles were incorporated into the Wehrmacht and used in the war against the French in 1940
The PzB 35(p) was a single shot weapon with a magazine for three rounds. It can easily be recognized by the lack of a pistol grip which is rather uncommon for tank rifles. The barrel had 6 grooves / right spin and was very long and thin. After 300 shots it had to be changed, which could be accomplished rather quick and uncomplicated with a special key. The well-designed muzzle brake absorbed 65% of the recoil forces and the recoil of the weapon was contrary to other tank rifles only slightly stronger than that of a regular infantry rifle. Because the ammunition for this weapon had no hardened core but relied on the high velocity of the bullet, penetration performance dropped significantly at ranges beyond 300m; the lack of a hard core in the projectile (weight: 12.8g) this weapon fires is widely regarded as the foremost drawback of this weapon. The high velocity of the bullet made for an extremely staright flight path, therefore sights at a range of 300m were used. The weapon comes complete with a bipod but can be used without it. Penetration performance is rated at 22mm of armor at 50m and 15mm at 100m (both at 60° impact angle), which sufficed for the successfull engagement of lightly armored vehicles early in the war, but like other tank rifles the weapon was practically useless against tanks after 1940.
Other data: caliber 7.92mm; Vo : 1,280m/s; length 176cm; barrel length 120cm; weight w/o ammo 9.5kg (10kg with bipod). practical rate of fire: 6 rounds per minute.

This information was taken from this site: http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust.htm

I think it is very informative and interesting.

Cheers,

Lancer44

Panzerknacker
05-19-2006, 07:28 PM
It is, This polish rifle was the first in use the tugsten core ammo.


but was also called Panzerbüchse 770(p) and was issued to german troops. Some of the weapons were also given to and employed by italian troops.


Also it was used in the Eslovaquian and Hungarian army.

Tony Williams
07-03-2006, 02:24 AM
There was a wide range of different anti-tank rifles and ammo used in WW2. The pics of the ammo below are from this article on my website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/ATRart.htm

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/ATR1.jpg

The 7.92x57 is the standard German rifle/MG round and the 12.7x99 is the .50 Browning - they are included for comparison.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/ATR2.jpg

SS Tiger
07-03-2006, 10:12 AM
Those are some nasty weapons, what was muzzle velocity required for penetrating tank armour?

Thanks for posting a link to your site Tony, there are some interesting articles!

Tony Williams
07-03-2006, 11:15 AM
Those are some nasty weapons, what was muzzle velocity required for penetrating tank armour?
That would depend on the size of the bullet, but the general principle was the faster the better!

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Dani
07-03-2006, 03:19 PM
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

OFF-TOPIC:
Hi Tony,
You could easily add to your signature the above quotation using the "User CP" located in the upper left side of your screen.
Regards,
Dani

Tony Williams
07-03-2006, 07:14 PM
Thanks for that Dani, but I tend not to use the 'automatic signature' function because I can never remember which forums have it and which don't, so I end up with double signatures!

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Panzerknacker
07-04-2006, 08:50 PM
Well...Tony is here ?

That is a good news.

Panzerknacker
09-08-2006, 08:23 PM
German ( and Italian) weapons defending the Tobruk coast, in the video is posible to see ( even briefly) a 20 mm Solo S-18-1000 in action.

http://www.wochenschau-archiv.de/kontrollklfenster.php?&PHPSESSID=&dmguid=08E92C0055BA58DF030103009D21A8C05706000000&inf=707320&outf=815760&funktion=play250k

Panzerknacker
10-05-2006, 08:10 PM
The Pzb 39 in practice shooting, the muzzle velocity of this anti-armor rifle was 1180 m/s.

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/4756/panzerbuchse38ebay1872hv1.jpg


And a rare color pic, in this the team gunner with a loader/spotter seems to be used.

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/7615/panzerbuchseebay2760lb3.jpg

Panzerknacker
12-31-2006, 10:07 AM
Modern color shots of the Pzb 39 7,92 mm antiarmor rifle, the russian reenactor are dressed with the spring SS camo uniform.

http://i17.tinypic.com/3yn5b9c.jpg

http://i14.tinypic.com/2mxlqoo.jpg

http://i18.tinypic.com/2uhu61j.jpg

http://i12.tinypic.com/2dj41f5.jpg

Panzerknacker
01-27-2007, 05:30 PM
Solothurn , introduced the self-loading S18-100 series (the numbers of the variants went up to S18-500) in a unique 20 x 105B calibre. The gun was gas-operated and this round was later used to develop an aircraft cannon


Some correction needed here, the Solo S-18-100 is NOT gas operated but short recoil operated.

20x105 mm cartrigdes:

http://www.histavia21.net/amaviapag/204det002.JPG

Panzerknacker
01-31-2007, 12:45 PM
Aditional images of the Solothurn S-18-100 20mm AT rifle:

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/2830/s181zy0.jpg

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/2316/s182mf0.jpg


Barrel jacket, the flutted part marked the recoil lenght.

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/9321/s183bv2.jpg

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/4388/s184eq5.jpg

Panzerknacker
01-31-2007, 12:46 PM
continue from page 2.....

Muzzle brake. (mundungbremse)

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/5907/s185cr7.jpg

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/2483/s186of0.jpg


Graduation in the sight.

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/6864/s187ak7.jpg

GermanSoldier
01-31-2007, 03:36 PM
Well Panzersnacker you gave the viewers alot of good information and pictures. I was wondering what AntiTank rifle you perfer to use on the German side on your thread.

Panzerknacker
01-31-2007, 06:15 PM
What antitank?

The Panzerfaust 60.

What antitank rifle ?

hmmm...dunno, so many to choose from, I guess I would use one of the 15-20 mm caliber rifles.

Tony Williams
01-31-2007, 07:18 PM
I have been sent an extract from official minutes of a British Committee (I'm not sure what, probably the Small Arms Committee) concerning British tests of the Solothurn S18-100 in 1934. Apparently it had been malfunctioning and they felt that considerable redesign of the firing pin and sear would be needed to make it satisfactory. Nonetheless, they decided to order another 3,000 rounds of ammo from ICI for further tests.

As to what happened next, I have no idea!

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Panzerknacker
01-31-2007, 07:38 PM
Probably they felt that the Stanchion gun was a more practical gun. ( but as effective)

Tony Williams
02-04-2007, 06:48 AM
Probably they felt that the Stanchion gun was a more practical gun. ( but as effective)

It was certainly much more portable, but was no more effective than the WW1 13mm Mauser M1918. A considerable waste of effort IMO.

By far the most effective of the WW2 anti-tank rifles was the Russian 14.5mm PTRD. It had as much penetration as the biggest 20mm AT guns (the Solothurn S18-1000 and Lahti L39) while being much more portable.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Panzerknacker
02-04-2007, 03:12 PM
Teorically a 20 mm rifle shooting tusgen core ammo surpassed both russian designs. Now I think that the pzg 40 bullet was never used in the Solos and Lathis rifles.


http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/9004/pzg409lt.jpg


There was also several 15 mm experimental german rifles wich were as effective as the russian , but none entered in large scale production.

Tony Williams
02-05-2007, 05:11 AM
Teorically a 20 mm rifle shooting tusgen core ammo surpassed both russian designs. Now I think that the pzg 40 bullet was never used in the Solos and Lathis rifles.
I agree on both counts.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Panzerknacker
02-06-2007, 07:08 PM
Pzb 39 deployed in the early stages of barbarossa, those were trown away after the first encounters with the T-34 and KV.

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/4017/pzb39mb3.jpg

armeiro
02-15-2007, 08:05 PM
Image from http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/6264/foe.htm?20074http://www.geocities.com/johnbsrebelyel/thegun.jpg

Panzerknacker
02-15-2007, 09:38 PM
Wow , nice picture, the shooter is a british one right ?

armeiro
02-16-2007, 04:48 PM
Wow , nice picture, the shooter is a british one right ?

I dont think so,the uniforms...,probably continental...Swiss,Hungarian...,i dont know.:confused: ...but it is a *** kicking picture of a SOLOTHURN A/T rifle.;)

Panzerknacker
02-17-2007, 05:31 PM
You are right, I just cant identify that uniform.

Panzerknacker
02-26-2007, 09:41 PM
Experimental 7,92x94mm rifles.


The germans were quite unsatisfied with the performance of their tank rifles. It was obvious that other tank rifles were to be produced if this weapon type was to have any practical use. Several projects were undertaken in 1940 by several companies, all using the Patrone 318.

http://i18.tinypic.com/2h4eu50.jpg


Gustloff-Werke presented two self-loading AT rifles - model 42 (later known as PzB.40 G) and model 44. Rifle model 42 had 5 different variations. It was gas-operated. Both models, capable only of semi-auto fire, had different mechanisms of locking the barrel. In one case it was wedge locking and in other case it was done by lever. Both models were magazine-feed from 8-round magazine.

Gustloff PzB 40.

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/7223/gustloffpzb40wr1.jpg


Magazine receiver was made on the left side of the rifle's body. For decreasing the size of a rifle in stowed position (due to request from para forces command), rifle's butt folded to the left side, decreasing the overall length from 1660mm to 1460mm. Barrel length - 1085mm.

Practical fire rate of Gustloff-werke rifles was up to 32 shots per minute, with an initial bullet speed of 1150m/s.

Effective fire range was no more than 300m. First model 42 weighted 18kg, second model 44 - 13.5kg. In these rifles were used components from other small arms, which production was already mastered, for example, the pivot-frame and butt from MG.34.


The Waffenfabrik Carl walther in Zella-Mehlis built the Modell 40 / PzB 40 W, a semiautomatic weapon with a curved magazine for 8 rounds.

Pzb 40 Walther.

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/6360/waltherpzb40mo0.jpg




Another Self-loading AT rifle , the model 41 was made by firm Mauser-Werke from town Oberndorf-am-Nekkar. It was gas-operated. . It was magazine-feeded, sector-type magazine contained 8 rounds and was inserted into receiver from left side.
Lock was capable of only semi-automatic fire with practical fire rate of 32 shots per minute. The rifle was partially made using punched metallic components. Overall length was 1670mm, barrel was 1085mm long; rifle weighted 12.5kg.

Mauser M41.

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/6774/mauser41sq8.jpg



H. Krieghoff made not less interesting AT rifle model 43 (also known as PzB.40 K). Zul armsmasters presented seven prototypes with differences. They were gas-operated with wedge barrel locking. Most part of rifle components (excluding barrel and lock), was made out of steel sheet by punching. 8-round box-shaped magazine was fastened on the left side of the rifle. Rifle weighted 14kg, it's overall length was 1570mm (1300mm with folded butt), while the barrel itself was 1150mm long.

There were thorough many-sided tests of new AT rifles which took place in october 1940 for finding out which rifle is best.---


-------------------

In the end all there rifles were deprived to enter in large scale production due the increase in armor achieved by allied tanks designs, the 8mm caliber despite his ultra velocity was no more competitive.



Sources:

http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust6.htm

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/panzerbuchsen-R.htm

tankgeezer
05-27-2007, 01:36 AM
I dont know if anyone has posted pics etc. about the shoulder fired A.T. rifles used during WW2, The Solothurn is the second most popular in the U.S. among shooters, and collectors, it is superior to the Lahti-39, in many ways, even though in their final versions, they both chambered the same 20 x 138mm cartridge. The Solothurn had an optical sight, and an interchangable barrel. and had the advantage of a very efficient muzzle brake, and a monopod beneath the shoulder stock. Performance on the battlefield was better as the low recoil, and optics made for a higher rate of effective fire. I have had my hands on one of these fine weapons, a real jewel of a mechanism. It is part of a friends collection.
anyway, I do have a pic, here someplace,also one of the typical 20 mm ammo of that time, so enjoy.

Panzerknacker
05-27-2007, 01:33 PM
You will find more of this model and others in here:

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3357

tankgeezer
05-27-2007, 04:34 PM
Thankyou my friend, I have some pics and info on other makers 20 mm rifles, I will put them together in the general discussions area. Enjoy the weekend.

Panzerknacker
05-29-2007, 07:44 PM
Here you got another, Solo-18-100, used by the Hungarian army.

http://i8.tinypic.com/4poh08l.jpg

Panzerknacker
06-18-2007, 07:54 PM
S-18-100 and S-18-1000, waffen magazine Nº 63.

http://www.amsd.ch/s18/S18-19.gif


http://www.amsd.ch/s18/S18-22.gif



http://www.amsd.ch/s18/S18-23.gif



http://www.amsd.ch/s18/S18-24.gif


........

Panzerknacker
06-18-2007, 07:58 PM
continue from above.

http://www.amsd.ch/s18/S18-25.gif



http://www.amsd.ch/s18/S18-26.gif


S-18-1100 was a fully automatic capable variant of the Solo-18-1000, here is displayed in several antitank and antiaircraft mountings.

http://www.amsd.ch/s18/S18-27.gif




http://www.amsd.ch/s18/S18-28.gif

Tony Williams
06-19-2007, 03:01 AM
I don't read German. Does it say anything about why the S18-1100 was given an automatic fire capability?

Panzerknacker
06-19-2007, 12:44 PM
To be used as light infantry support gun, antitank gun and antiaircraft cannon.

genkideskan
06-20-2007, 10:52 AM
Hello Tony ,

the S 18 1000 has a fire selector and couldt fire auto and full auto .

The S 18 1100 is the full auto version but an fire selector couldt be easily

buildt in.

Panzerknacker
06-20-2007, 07:17 PM
Thanks GK but I think Tony knows that already.

cooke24
07-08-2007, 02:50 PM
those antitank rifles were completly obsolete by the time the panzerfausts were in mass production. even in the beginging of the war they still had to hit the side of armoured vehicles to get a penitration.

Panzerknacker
07-13-2007, 11:25 AM
Panzerbüchse Modell SS 41.

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/815/mpzb41yk2.jpg

This rifle was another semiautomatic Patrone 318 rifle, but in this case the design was not a reply from the Waffen Amt of the Heer (German Army) but to the SS Wafen academy in Brünn (Brno Czech republic).

Czechs working for the Waffen SS employed as a base several rifles already produced for the Czech army in the Interwar periods, those already used the advanced bullpup configuration, this means the magazine below the trigger and with part of the mechanism embeded in the shoulder stock.
The PM. SS 41 rifle works with the recoils forces and had a rotating bolt head to lock the chamber.

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/6818/75061727qd2.jpg

This entirely Czech design was manufactured by the Swiss Solothurn firm in 1941-42 (probably in order to avoid sabotage)


It used a side mounted 10 round magazine and the total lenght of the M ss Pzb 41 was 1360 mm (1100mm barrel). The muzzle was equipped with a single chamber brake in order to reduce felt recoil, the max rate of fire ( all according to SS officers) were 70 rpm and the practical about the half of that figure.

Detail of the side mounted magazine and safety knob.

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/1006/45498121jm7.jpg

Panzerknacker
07-26-2007, 10:02 PM
Aditional images of the Pzb SS 41.

Bolt fully back. In here is also possible to apreciate the "tilt" of the side mounted magazine.

http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/8108/96171785ah7.jpg




http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/102/80537239yy4.jpg


Shoulder rest.

http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/737/59401242pp9.jpg



Rear sight, max regulation 500 meters.

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/3508/70476003qf6.jpg

Tony Williams
07-26-2007, 11:24 PM
A couple of comments:

The PzB SS 41 was officially known as the M.SS 41, according to the designation stamped on the one which I examined.

The Czech original was designed for a much longer and more powerful-looking 7.92mm cartridge, as shown in the photo below from THIS (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2569310#post2569310) thread:

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/4864/protitankovapuskazk382w792hb3.jpg

Panzerknacker
07-26-2007, 11:55 PM
Hehe, incidentally I have a topic of the Zk-382 in here: :D, Initially I have no idea what caliber was.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5118

Panzerknacker
08-03-2007, 11:58 PM
Mauser MG 141:

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/93/dibujozm5.jpg

In 1939 Mauser technicians decide to investigate about the possible use of a heavy machinegun for the antiarmor role both for infantry and aircraft use. The result was the experimental MG 141.

This gun was fully an automatic one and it used the same Patrone 318 (7,92x95mm) round of the antitank Pzb 38/39.

The design is larguely based in the aviation gun MG-151, it used a short recoil barrel and a rotating bolt lock mechanism and it was belt feed. No more of 20-25 MG 141 manufactured and is very likely that it never was deployed in combat.

Barrel lenght: 1000 mm.

Total lenght 1742 mm

Weight : 23 kg.

Rate of fire (ciclic): 800-900 rpm.

Tony Williams
08-04-2007, 03:32 AM
Mauser MG 141:
No more of 20-25 MG 141 manufactured and is very likely that it never was deployed in combat.

Actually, there is evidence that it was...this is from the draft of a book on machine guns on which I am working with Max Popenker (due for publication next year):

"Forty PzKw I Ausf C (VK601) light tanks were reportedly built with this gun, two being issued to the 1st Panzer Division for combat trials in 1943, while the remainder were kept in reserve and may have been issued to units during the Normandy campaign. Other vehicles intended to carry it were the Pz Kpfw II Ausf G (a few built but never issued), and the Panzerspahwagen RK Ausf A (never built)."

Panzerknacker
08-04-2007, 10:20 AM
Actually, there is evidence that it was...this is from the draft of a book on machine guns on which I am working with Max Popenker (due for publication next year):



You definately need me in that book Tony :D

The VK 601 didnt use the Mauser MG 141 but the Mauser EW 141.Wasnt the same.

I have some beautiful shots of that weapon, give me some time.

Tony Williams
08-04-2007, 03:16 PM
Do you have a source for that info? I await the photos with interest :)

Panzerknacker
08-04-2007, 07:54 PM
I always do, 3 in this ocassion. In this case I strongly recomend the series "Panzer Tracts" by Hilary Louis Doyle y Thomas Jentz, they have a lot of unpublished photos of tank armament and tank interiors

The good thing about is that they didnt use old literature for his book but the german informs, drawings, original pictures and combat reports so you got the real deal and not suggestive impression. For the armor of WW2 every book is a paradise.

The number in wich the EW 141 is depicted is Panzer Tracts 1-2 - Panzerkampfwagen I (kl.Bef. - VK18.01)

The other source is Neymecszky Protivotankoboe/Kulomet 1918-1945 of a russian editorial sorry if I miss the translation of that but is cyliric.

The other is a bunch of old "Waffen " magazines from the 70s. There is also some good websites in german too.

I will put some images but for ethical reason I cant scan all those so...well I guess you must to find some book.

I insist, You definately need me in that book Tony :D

Panzerknacker
08-06-2007, 11:35 PM
Mauser EW 141 , the mistery gun.

This is definately the most unknow of the german weapon used in armor vehicles.

Some sources named this as a 20 mm weapon, some others as a 13 mm machinegun. Both are wrong.

The EW 141 derivated from the experimental heavy fast firing machinegun MG 141 ,as his predecessor the EW 141 is not a 13mm or 20 weapon but it use a 7,92x95 round from the standar antitank rifles Pzb 38/39.


EW 141 prototipe, receiver cover opened, note the dissasembled bolt, the extremely thick tube, and the single knuckled section.

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/2141/ew141cn8.jpg

His EW abreviature goes for EinbauWaffe, emplacement gun, since it was designed to be instaled in a single place turret for light tanks/armored cars. The EW 141 is a semi-automatic, belt feed, quick change heavy barrel rifle. It was no capable to fire in full automatic mode.

The design of the EW 141 was completed in 1940 and 5 of these weapon were manufactured before the end the year.
35 were manufactured in 1941 and the rest 20 in 1942.

Despite it shorts numbers it cannot be considered as a experimental weapon since it enterered in action, was used by light panzer against the allies in the days after the D-day invation.

EW "Ersatzlauf" (replacement barrel") inside the hull of a VK 601/panzer 1 ausf C. This is obviously a production weapon, it had two knuckled sections and a more conical shape in the threaded section.

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/8822/dibujown6.jpg


EW 141 characteristics.

Lenght: 1670mm

Barrel lenght: 1085 mm

Weight: 30,1 kilograms.

Muzzle speed: 1170 m/s ( Patrone 318 S.m.K (H) L`spur)

Armor penetration: 24-25 mm rolled homogeneous plate sloped 30º at 100 meters.

Ciclic rate: semiautomatic only, estimated in 100 rpm.

Panzerknacker
08-09-2007, 12:12 AM
Turret emplacement Ew 141.

Some pictures of the gun in his turret. The coaxial weapon is a MG 34.

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/3418/ew1cn7.jpg



Another view of the Pz I ausf C, note the recessed muzzle and the large diameter of the barrel, probably designed to deal with the amount of heat product of the high gas pressure in the patrone 318.

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/6446/69363491up0.jpg

Tony Williams
08-11-2007, 07:39 PM
Mauser EW 141 , the mistery gun.

The EW 141 derivated from the experimental heavy fast firing machinegun MG 141 ,as his predecessor the EW 141 is not a 13mm or 20 weapon but it use a 7,92x95 round from the standar antitank rifles Pzb 38/39.

Thanks very much for posting this. I'm not quite sure from your post whether the EW 141 came before or after the MG 141.

Marcus Wendel
08-12-2007, 06:35 AM
Good thread, thanks.

/Marcus

Panzerknacker
08-12-2007, 03:21 PM
Thanks very much for posting this. I'm not quite sure from your post whether the EW 141 came before or after the MG 141.

After my dear Tony, it come after the Mauser MG 141.


Good thread, thanks.


You will find several good ones here my Marcus.;)

Panzerknacker
08-13-2007, 06:55 PM
Tankgewehr post moved to a devoted topic in the WW1 section.

Panzerknacker
08-17-2007, 10:08 AM
The 15 mm Panzerbüchsen.

After the invation of the USSR the german army encountered two things that altered his perception about the antitank rifles.
The fist were the new generation of russian tanks that inmediatly made the 8 mm calibres rifles and machineguns extremely inefective ( actually it wasnt the first time, the pzb 38 & 39 had already troubles battling the british armor)

The second one was the wide spread use of antitank rifles by the soviets those rifles used a high speed 14,5 mm bullet that completely dwarfed the german calibers.

In 1941 there was some development for a 13 mm ( based in a 13 aviation round with larger powder charge) rifle but after Barbarossa the Heeres Waffe Amt dropped the 13 mm and choosed a 15 mm instead. The program was called "Panzerbüchse 243"

Gustloff M1941.

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/5876/gustloff1mv1.jpg

Automatics of AT rifle M.1941 was powered by rifle's back-blow (length of back-blow was 186mm). Powerful reactive-type single-chamber muzzle brake was fastened on the end of the barrel, reducing the recoil significantly. Safety flag was made on the the left side of pistol fire control handle. The rifle was magazine-feeded, and it should be noted that the receiver of box-shaped magazine was made on top side of the rifle.


http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/7483/gustloff2kl8.jpg

Tony Williams
08-17-2007, 10:11 AM
Interesting! Any idea which 15mm ammo was used? The MG 151 type or a special round?

Panzerknacker
08-17-2007, 10:20 AM
Hello Tony.

The Gustloff pzb 243 used the Mauser 15x96 ammmo, but other designs used a large case, for the benefit of the lazy members I will repeat the information of the mauser round that I already posted in the Luftwaffe cannons and Mg topic. ;)

15x96mm Mauser

Panzergranatpatrone, L-spur.

http://i11.tinypic.com/2w49qnl.jpg

Armor piercing steel shot, with tracer, projectile weight 72 grams initial speed 850 m/s. The tracer elemente endure at list 1100 meters.

Penetration table for Pzg.Ptr. L-spur. 25 mm at 100 meters and 13 mm at 600 meters, both in vertical (90º) plate and direct mode..

http://i12.tinypic.com/2chuhkp.jpg

There was also a tugsten carbide core 15 mm round wich penetrate 48 mm or plate at 100 meters for comparison the armor of a Crusader tank was 25-32 mm, T-26:15mm, T-34, between 45-47 mm, M3 stuart max 38,1 mm.

Panzerknacker
08-20-2007, 02:40 AM
BSW Modell 1 rifle.

The company Berlin-Suhler Waffen- und Fahrzeugwerke Simson & Co, was a multipurpose industrial firm based in town of Suhl.
His production was devoted to the manufacture of two strokes motorbikes, hunting shotguns and pistols.

In 1936 was expropiated by the German Goverment and in 1939 was handed over to Gustloff werek as a subsidiary.

The BSW technicians also compete in the design of a 15 mm antitank weapon for the german infantry, in early 1942 the gun was comleted.

His design had a very obvious relation with Gustloff, It was larger variant of PzB.38, but designed to use 15x95 'Mauser' cartridge made for high-caliber MG.151. Exactly as AT rifle PzB-38, BSW mod. 1 rifle was single-round mechanical weapon with back-blow barrel during shot.

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/7343/89991756ca2.jpg


during shot. Anti-back-blow device consisted of spiral spring which was put on the barrel. Barrel was shielded by stamper metal sheet.

Barrel locking was achieved by semi-auto vertical wedge breechblock. Reloading of the breech was triggered by a lever, made as pistol fire control handle. After the shot the barrel recoiled, the chamber was opened and the used cartrigded ejected, at the same time the rifle is cocked and ready to accept a fresh cartrigde.

Safety gear consisted of two devices: first - flag-type - was made on the right side of rifle's body, and second turned on when rifle's butt was folded down; folded butt decreased rifle length in stowed position in the same time. While using powerful cartridge, the weapon was compact and light enough, according to HWaA demands.

The heavy recoil was dampened in about 40 % by a large muzzle brake wich deviated a big portion of gasses backwards after the shot, the problem was the large amount of dust elevated by the muzzle blast if the gun was shot in a prone emplacement .

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/3673/53007456ea8.jpg

With 15kg mass BSW mod.1 rifle had overall length of 1430mm and barrel length of 838mm.

The muzzle velocity with the steel AP 15 mm ammo was about 840 m/s.

BSW 1 rifle with the stock folded down.

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/384/dibujoqs0.jpg

Panzerknacker
10-24-2007, 07:31 PM
MG 131/8 antiarmor machinegun.

In 1939 the technician of Reinhmetall sought to test a improved armor-breaking machinegun using the aeronautical MG 131 as a base with a improve velocity bullet.

In order to increase the muzzle speed the normal 13 mm projectile was discarded and the case necked down to accept a 7,92mm bullet.

As result of this the overall lenght of the case was increased to 82mm, and the muzzle speed impelled to the lighter projectile was 1150 m/s, roughly less that the Patrone 318 antitank round used by the army.

7,92 x 82 cartrigde with armor piercing bullets.

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/3412/1318yv8.jpg

http://i20.tinypic.com/2itkk1g.jpg

Just a handful of the MG 131/8 were manufactured and few used in actual combat.

Tony Williams
10-24-2007, 08:43 PM
MG 131/8 antiarmor machinegun.Just a handful of the MG 131/8 were manufactured and few used in actual combat.

I have one of those rounds in my collection, but I didn't know that any of the guns had been used in combat. Do you have any more details about that?

Panzerknacker
10-24-2007, 08:50 PM
Sorry but no, actually the sources doesnt not indicates if was used by the Luftwaffe or the Heer, my stimate is that the MG 131 /8 was used by the german Air Force betwen 1939-41, mostly because the headstamps.

Panzerknacker
10-30-2007, 07:51 PM
Waffe 15.

The czech response to the pzb 42 requeriments. Thsi rifle was larguely based in the prewar ZK-382 sharing his bullpup configuration and manual operated bolt.

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/113/waffe1gj8.jpg

The gun was completed in early 1942 and simply named W15/42 ( weapon 15mm modell 1942)
The W15 was designed to use a "propietary" cartrigde wich was not the Mauser 15 x 96 but the large 15 x 145 mm

Its large bottlenecked case gave it a high muzzle speed of 1120 m/s. According to the Brno waffenakademie its panzergranate ammunition could pierce trough 50-60 mm of rolled steel plate at 100 meters.

Panzerknacker
11-25-2007, 05:50 PM
Granatenbüchse GrB 39

http://reibert.info/wiki/images/f/fd/Gr_1.jpg

Given the limited efficience of the 8 mm Patrone 318 in the mid war years it was decide to convert many of remaining Pzb 39s in grenade launching rifles. That means the way to defeat armor became the hollow charge grenades instead the kinetic energy, hard core bullets.

http://reibert.info/wiki/images/6/6a/Gr_4.JPG

Starting 1942, the PzB 39 were rebuilt with a shortened barrel (59cm) and an affixed schiessbecher( grooved rifle grenade launching attachment) as grenade rifles with the designation Granatenbüchse Modell 39 ("grenade rifle model 39").

The grenade was frontally loading while the chamber was loaded with a special blank cartrigde for projection purposes (treisspatrone). The rifle could also launch the standar explosive, marking or training grenades also used by the K-98K.


http://reibert.info/wiki/images/f/f4/Gr_2.jpg


According to the grenade weight it muzzle velocity might vary between 100-125 mps, its recoil is noted as "unpleasant".

Panzerbuchse
01-03-2008, 09:21 PM
Back in June Tony Williams asked why the S18-1000 was given full auto capability.
As far as I can tell the S18-1000 Panzerbuchse was redesigned to the S18-1100 and designated the Universalwaffe.
This allowed the 2cm to be used as FlaK when mounted on a rather substantial wheeled carraige.
The full auto capability was incorporated in the bottom plate that carries the monopod.
With the automatic plate install the gun would fire from open bolt.
It is riveted onto the S18-1000 but removable on the S18-1100 so the gun could also be used in a Semi-auto mode.
S18-1100 are very rare as I have seen only one in the Patton Museum Collection.
The S18-1000 is great fun to fire in semi-auto.
I can only imagine the full body impact of firing the S18-1100 in full-auto, not to mention that it would reguire factory loaded ammunition and at up to $50.00 a shot VERY pricey experiance

Tony Williams
01-04-2008, 04:17 AM
Finland did something similar, converting the 20mm L39 Lahti anti-tank rifle to full-auto to create a light AA cannon. This used the same 20x138B ammo as the S18-1000.

Panzerknacker
02-05-2008, 07:10 PM
A nice cutaway of the Solos S-18-1100 model.

snebold
03-29-2008, 01:20 PM
in a ammu-picture´s on this thread there 13,9mm and 15,2mm calibres. Can anybody say which weapons these were supposed to be fired from?

Panzerknacker
03-29-2008, 10:52 PM
The 13,9 mm was for the Boys british antitank rifle.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3962

The 15,2 I believe is for a experimental Heavy Machinegun designed by Fabrique Nationale of Belgium.

Tony Williams
03-30-2008, 03:03 AM
The 15.2mm was the US .60 inch, originally designed in WW2 for an anti-tank rifle which never happened, then adopted for various aircraft MG projects, and finally necked out to 20mm to create the cartridge still used in the M61 Vulcan cannon, plus various other guns.

I assume that the photo is one from the Ammo Photo Gallery on my website.

snebold
03-30-2008, 11:41 AM
yes, you posted that picture here. I assume that since that (mighty looking...) 15,2x114 exists, something must have been around that could fire it, were there no working prototypes of the ATR or the MG´s?

Did FN make a 15,2mm MG?

Tony Williams
03-31-2008, 11:50 AM
yes, you posted that picture here. I assume that since that (mighty looking...) 15,2x114 exists, something must have been around that could fire it, were there no working prototypes of the ATR or the MG´s?
Yes, there was at least one prototype of the ATR, and some 300 T17 aircraft MGs were made - basically, a copy of the Mauser MG 151 modified to use the .60" cartridge. The first protoypes of what became the M39 revolver gun and M61 Gatling were also made in .60", until it was decided to switch to 20mm.


Did FN make a 15,2mm MG?

Not quite: their BRG HMG was first developed in 15x115 and later in 15.5x106, but neither made it into production.

snebold
03-31-2008, 03:33 PM
Thank you Tony, -the fountain of MG wisdom;)

The switch to 20mm was most wise I guess, Couldn´t see the M61 enjoy so long a life as a 15,2mm weapon

Panzerknacker
03-31-2008, 06:56 PM
The 15.2mm was the US .60 inch, originally designed in WW2 for an anti-tank rifle which never happened, then adopted for various aircraft MG projects, and finally necked out to 20mm to create the cartridge still used in the M61 Vulcan cannon, plus various other guns.



I did now about the U.S made MG 151s but none about the AT rifle, stand corrected :mrgreen:

genkideskan
04-03-2008, 04:39 PM
Here is an interesting ammunition chart from april 1942. These are prints from the Holerit mechanical computers using punch cards to manage mass data.
It is interesting to see that barrel life was limited to 600 rounds and that in april 1942 no more 7,92mm anti tank rifles where made.
I wonder that brass case ammo ( 1,10 RM ) was cheaper than steel case ammo ( 1,30 RM ). An average worker get an monthly pay of app. 60 Reichsmark.

genkideskan
04-04-2008, 04:31 PM
Solothurn shooting :-)

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=SRSczKvw7ek&feature=related

Panzerknacker
04-05-2008, 09:13 AM
Interesting chart, thanks. Is remarkable the high number of blank ammo manufactured.

larryparamedic
04-05-2008, 10:46 AM
Solothurn shooting :-)

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=SRSczKvw7ek&feature=related

It seems remarkable the number of large rifles around and being used today.
I think it's funny on any video of someone firing one they yell/holler and everyone that sees it fired does the same think. Talk about feeling the Power.
They are truly impressive weapons.
Speaking of larger bore anti-material rifles there are currently 50-80% receiver kits for the 50BMG on the market today at amazingly modest cost for those handy in gunsmithing, and I'm curious if anyone knows of any for these beasts like maybe a 20mm 50-80% kit? I would love to look into building one, would be a great winter project. :)
Fascinating subject in any regard. Also interesting to me are the men who carried them in actual wartime use.

Hey, about that blank ammo in the chart, considering the period and the amount of training they were constantly doing, I'd say that makes sense.
Anyway, here is a link off a blog that wasn't a bad story on monster bore rifles.
http://kitup.military.com/2007/08/return-of-the-e.html

Panzerknacker
06-02-2008, 07:15 PM
Quote to self :



H. Krieghoff made not less interesting AT rifle model 43 (also known as PzB.40 K). Zul armsmasters presented seven prototypes with differences. They were gas-operated with wedge barrel locking. Most part of rifle components (excluding barrel and lock), was made out of steel sheet by punching. 8-round box-shaped magazine was fastened on the left side of the rifle. Rifle weighted 14kg, it's overall length was 1570mm (1300mm with folded butt), while the barrel itself was 1150mm long


Photo of the Krieghoff panzerbüchse 40 7,92 mm AT.

http://i26.tinypic.com/20kvv3n.jpg

Panzerknacker
07-22-2008, 10:34 PM
Two not very high quality but interesting nevertheless images of the actual deployment of the Pzb 39, in France by ciclist troops and Russia.

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/2263/dibujoub7.jpg

Source: Waffen Arsenal Nº140: Deutsche Panzernahbekämpfungsmittel 1917-1945

bas
07-23-2008, 07:11 PM
Here's another photo of the Pzb39 in use on the Russian front:

http://www.gunpics.net/russian/dp27/72_big.jpg

By the other side!

Panzerknacker
07-23-2008, 07:56 PM
The russians never trew anything away.

Nice picture.

tankgeezer
07-23-2008, 10:23 PM
yes, you posted that picture here. I assume that since that (mighty looking...) 15,2x114 exists, something must have been around that could fire it, were there no working prototypes of the ATR or the MG´s?

Did FN make a 15,2mm MG?
The only .60 cal ATR specimen(s) were protos , none were ever produced for issue. I have seen a picture of one, in a small blue book about ATR weapons, 20 odd yrs ago.

Tony Williams
07-23-2008, 10:52 PM
The only .60 cal ATR specimen(s) were protos , none were ever produced for issue. I have seen a picture of one, in a small blue book about ATR weapons, 20 odd yrs ago.

Correct - I have a copy of that book somewhere ("Know Your Anti-Tank Rifle" by Hoffschmidt, IIRC).

The .60" cartridge was used in various other experimental guns, all of them aircraft MGs. The T17 was the Mauser MG 151 modified to fire the .60, and som 300 of these were made in WW2 but never used. The first prototypes of what became the postwar M39 revolver cannon and the M61 Gatling were also made in .60", before the case was shortened and necked-out to 20mm calibre to obtain more destructive effect.

Panzerknacker
11-19-2008, 05:46 PM
The Karabiner K-98 as antitank weapon.

The main weapon of the german infantry, The 98K, could be also used as antitank , or better said antiarmor when coupled with the firing cup "schiessbecher" the SchB was originally designed as a high explosive fragmentation grenade launcher for antipersonnel purposes. Starting In 1940 a special family of shaped charge grenades were introduced for fighting armor.

The Schiessbecher was basically a short rifled barrel with a caliber of 30mm and a length of 25cm. It weighed 0.75kg and was attached to the bore of the rifle. A rather complicated aiming device was mounted to the left of the original sights and allowed for aiming ranges of up to 300m.

Usually this device was trown away in the field and replaced by the rear sight or other "guesstimates" means to aim. the grenade s body reproduced a negative of the SchB rifling so that allowed a spin stabilized flight towards the target.

http://i37.tinypic.com/2vtaxcy.jpg

The first type of AT ammunition used was the Gewehrpanzergranate 30, a slim hollow charge grenade that fit into the SchB.

Gw.Pz.gr 30 squematic

http://i35.tinypic.com/4kivzs.jpg

Due the small bursting charge and lack of penetration this was replaced in late 1942 by the Gross Gewehrpanzergranate with a 5 cm warhead and 390 grams in total weight. The quoted penetration of the Gw Pz Gr Gross is 80 mm, teorically allowing to destroy or at list penetrate most of tanks in service up to 1944.

All the rifle grenades were propelled by a 7,92x57 treisspatrone, special blank.
Muzzle velocity was about 70-90 mps and range 100-200 m.

loading the GW Pz Gr 30

http://i38.tinypic.com/dw7475.jpg

SchB with the Gross Pz grenate fit.

http://i36.tinypic.com/2qspj15.jpg

tankgeezer
11-19-2008, 06:16 PM
i never knew that existed, but I guess its not unexpected to find such a grenade launcher. I would think it to be useful against lightly armored vehicles, and fortified positions. (I think that might come in handy if the opposing soccer team is gaining too many goals:) )

Panzerknacker
11-19-2008, 06:34 PM
The concept of the rifle launching grenades from the muzzle is still used, I know the israeli army have some models, the argentine army used both types, one HEDP with bullet "trap" to allow the normal FMJ cartrigdes for projection.

Panzerknacker
11-20-2008, 04:49 PM
The Karabiner K-98 as antitank weapon. (II)

Other hollow charge grenade used in the K-98 was the GGP series.
The Gewehrgranate zur Panzerbekämpfung ("rifle grenade for fighting tanks") of the company WASAG that was usually referred to under it's abbreviation GGP or GG/P, it also carried the designation GGP 40 or GG/P 40. This larger weapon's shaft could not fit into the SchB so a special spigot was attached to the muzzle in the rifle to fire it.

http://i35.tinypic.com/30b013m.jpg

Over this spigot fits the hollow tail-piece of the grenade. It is fitted to the rifle, in the same manner as a bayonet, over the bayonet standard and foresight block, and is locked in position by a spring-loaded bolt.

On firing the propelling cartridge, the gasses pass out of the barrel of the rifle, through the spigot, and into the hollow tail-piece to propel the grenade.

http://i34.tinypic.com/1zegwax.jpg

The GGP was put in service in mid 1940, weighed 520g and had a length of 23.4 cm. The warhead had a diameter of 60mm and carried a shaped charge of 175g that enabled the GGP to penetrate 40mm of armor.
As it could not achieve a spin from the Schiessbecher's rifling it had to depend on six stabilizing fins attached to the rear of it's shaft for flight stabilization.

Later a longer cap was put onto the warhead that allowed for an earlier detonation of the shaped charge which increased the penetration performance to 45mm. This final production version of the GGP had a length of 29.5cm.

GGP improved

http://i36.tinypic.com/6fd24m.gif

Panzerknacker
06-12-2009, 07:57 PM
Video of the Solothurn S-18-100 cal. 20x105 used by Hungarian troops in the southern sector of the Eastern Front, august 1941.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDDaJhL-Wtg

Panzerknacker
08-15-2009, 12:08 AM
2 very rare photos, Solothurn S-18-100 in german use in the Eastern front. Very few rifles of the type were employed by german infantry.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-189-1250-10%2C_Russland-S%C3%BCd%2C_Soldat_mit_Panzerb%C3%BCchse.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-189-1250-11%2C_Russland-S%C3%BCd%2C_Soldat_mit_Panzerb%C3%BCchse.jpg

tankgeezer
08-15-2009, 12:16 AM
Some nice pics there, I just got a copy of Hoffschmidt's book "Know your anti-tank rifles" it has some pics of the different Solothurn models, and most all of the other rifles made or used . The pics, and tables are nice, but the text may contain some errors.

Panzerknacker
08-15-2009, 09:45 AM
Put some text and we will see.

Well, I dont want to create some myth, but honestly this topic has been robbed and robbed, just put "solothurn s-18" in google images and youll see hundreds of pictures/information in several forum/sites extracted from here.

Not to mention the topic in spanih I ve created in 2005, now suddenly there is antitank rifles experts in all the spansih language world, give me a break.

Ardee
08-17-2009, 12:23 PM
Some nice pics there, I just got a copy of Hoffschmidt's book "Know your anti-tank rifles" it has some pics of the different Solothurn models, and most all of the other rifles made or used . The pics, and tables are nice, but the text may contain some errors.

Hi Tankgeezer. I'm interested in photos of the Solothurn, as used by the Dutch and the Italians. Are there are any good shots in this book of the weapon being crewed by soldiers from these nations?

tankgeezer
08-17-2009, 06:07 PM
Hi Tankgeezer. I'm interested in photos of the Solothurn, as used by the Dutch and the Italians. Are there are any good shots in this book of the weapon being crewed by soldiers from these nations?
I had a look Ardee, nothing showing field use of the different Solothurns, only proving ground/training pics,manned by Swiss soldiers.

Panzerknacker
08-17-2009, 06:23 PM
Hi Tankgeezer. I'm interested in photos of the Solothurn, as used by the Dutch and the Italians. Are there are any good shots in this book of the weapon being crewed by soldiers from these nations


Incidentally there are some pictures of italian used solothurns in the Italian tanks and Italian artillery, both in the other military section.

And talking about the swiss they got a massive 24mm rifle in service for antitank purposes, quite a monster.

tankgeezer
08-17-2009, 07:55 PM
Incidentally there are some pictures of italian used solothurns in the Italian tanks and Italian artillery, both in the other military section.

And talking about the swiss they got a massive 24mm rifle in service for antitank purposes, quite a monster.
Here is the very beastie.

Panzerknacker
08-17-2009, 08:07 PM
Excellent, note that weird muzzle brake, needed as the air and bread but I guess the noise and muzzle blast was horrendous with that device.

tankgeezer
08-17-2009, 08:36 PM
The 24mm round was something, tho it didnt look like much by itself, when placed next to other contemporary A.T. rifle ammo, it does stand out. the image is from member Tony's book rapide fire, The 24mm is at far right, the round for the Lahti, and Solothurn is 4th from right. And, for those who noticed the rather large 20 mm cartridge 20x180R, that is for the Carl Gustav recoiless A.T. rifle.

Panzerknacker
08-17-2009, 09:00 PM
Quite interesting, do you got more photos of the swiss beast?

tankgeezer
08-17-2009, 09:54 PM
I'll have to take a look and see if there are more, I do have a link to a clip of the Carl Gustav rifle tho, look here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx7AfAyEies

tankgeezer
08-17-2009, 10:03 PM
alrighty, I found one additional pic, probably from the same source. this is the field transport for the TB41... (try to think of Benny Hill with his "chase music")

Panzerknacker
08-17-2009, 10:04 PM
Definately looks heavy for a single biker.

http://i27.tinypic.com/2r597q9.jpg


That was recoiless but definately not blastless. Thanks for the vid and pic.

tankgeezer
08-17-2009, 11:04 PM
I will agree, especially in the mud, it would be a nightmare to pull behind a bike.

Ardee
08-18-2009, 01:53 PM
I had a look Ardee, nothing showing field use of the different Solothurns, only proving ground/training pics,manned by Swiss soldiers.

Thanks for looking!


Incidentally there are some pictures of italian used solothurns in the Italian tanks and Italian artillery, both in the other military section.


Yeah, I've seen them. What I'm trying to find is an uncropped image of it as an infantry ground weapon (vs mounted on vehicles such as the Sahariana), and the soldiers in more-or-less standard Continental (vs. N. African) uniforms. I have a good photo of some RSI Bersaglieri, but that's as close as I've come so far...anyway, as I said, thanks for looking....

Panzerknacker
08-18-2009, 07:32 PM
Okay I see, if I find something like that I will post.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o265/WDW_Megaraptor/WW2%20pacific%20weapons/KNIL/solothurn1vu9.jpg

Ardee
08-24-2009, 11:20 AM
Okay I see, if I find something like that I will post.

Thanks, Panzerknacker. Nice photo of a KNIL trooper. Too bad the image is cropped....

R

Deaf Smith
08-24-2009, 07:37 PM
I bet using a motorcycle with a side car the Swiss 24mm would have been interesting. The side car passenger would have been the assistant gunner and a quantity of ammo could have been carried. Note that some motorcycles and side cars were tracked to be more mud capable.

Wonder what the penetration was for the 24mm? Is there any place that shows the MV and ballistics of this round?

Deaf

Panzerknacker
08-24-2009, 07:45 PM
The only book I ve seen this swiss gun mentiones in "Rapid fire" by Tony Williams and he didnt gave penetration figures.

My stimate in about 10 % more than the solothurn 20x138mm guns, probably was around 40 to 42 mm at 150 meters.


Thanks, Panzerknacker. Nice photo of a KNIL trooper. Too bad the image is cropped....

Oh...you cant have it all.

tankgeezer
08-25-2009, 09:04 AM
I found this, it doesnt have alot of info, or show the TB 41 firing, but it will give some sense of the ponderous size and heft of the gun. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa2Q2Vvbxs8

tankgeezer
08-25-2009, 12:58 PM
This clip isnt an A.T. rifle, but interesting in any event, a small WWII Swiss A.T. gun, with a reenactor crew. (sorry no Benny Hill music in this one)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FBcNK2FTxs

Panzerknacker
08-25-2009, 06:37 PM
Massive, nice find TankG, the size of the "Tankbuchse" isnt precisely rifle like.

Deaf Smith
08-25-2009, 10:25 PM
The only book I ve seen this swiss gun mentiones in "Rapid fire" by Tony Williams and he didnt gave penetration figures.

My stimate in about 10 % more than the solothurn 20x138mm guns, probably was around 40 to 42 mm at 150 meters.

So you would have to wait till the tank was giving you a side shot as 40mm I don't think would penetrate many tanks from a frontal shot.

Mighty dangerous calling to man one of those guns!

Sherman tanks had 63mm of frontal armor. Panzer MK III had 57mm of armor. The T-34 had 45-46 mm. As we see earlier in this thread by the time WW2 started these AT guns were already ineffective so far as tanks (but I bet they could have lit up APCs, half-tracks, and trucks very well.)

Interesting thing is it seems the 20 mm AT guns could take the side shot with a chance of it working on the T-34:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=79&p=1368355

And other weapons that were tested on the T-34:

http://www.tank-net.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t18562.html

Deaf

Panzerknacker
08-25-2009, 10:32 PM
Definately firing at the flat sides of the hull or turret in the panzer III/IV stug III/IV family you probably would cause serious damaga, remember that the russian PTRS PTRD 14,5 mm guns usually penetrated the 30 mm plate at 200-220 meters.

With the T-34 is other history, I be seen footage of a 50mm pak 38 apcbc round bouncing off a T-34 hull side 300 meters away so...with a 24mm round should be really difficult.

tankgeezer
08-25-2009, 11:33 PM
Massive, nice find TankG, the size of the "Tankbuchse" isnt precisely rifle like. Did you see the clip of the TB-41 being "deployed" previous page, last post. Turn the sound on...

Panzerknacker
08-26-2009, 11:27 AM
I did and I am bit deaf right now :)

tankgeezer
08-26-2009, 03:02 PM
a bit of wine will restore your hearing my friend, my daughter's man is Swiss, so I sent the clip to them. (maybe Benny hill is their favored marching music.....:) )
The Swiss military is pretty sharp, and well up to date from what I have seen of it, even though they may have the least need for an army.

Panzerknacker
08-26-2009, 06:53 PM
A bit ackward looking soldiers or maybe just reenactors.

tankgeezer
08-26-2009, 07:39 PM
A bit ackward looking soldiers or maybe just reenactors.
Those are reenactors, wearing the old style uniform & rifle. (and probably more used to lifting a glass than an A.T. gun :) ) Those folks seem to like reenacting about anything, even the American Civil War. The Swiss border with Germany has some very creative bunker complexes, there are clips of them too.

Panzerknacker
08-28-2009, 10:02 AM
Those reenactor need more training reenacting. ;)

I am looking information and pictures of the czech VZ 15mm or the 15 Besa used in british tanks.

tankgeezer
08-28-2009, 12:23 PM
Those reenactor need more training reenacting. ;)

I am looking information and pictures of the czech VZ 15mm or the 15 Besa used in british tanks.
I found one pic, of the Besa 15mm, I'll see about finding something out about it.

Panzerknacker
08-28-2009, 06:48 PM
Good; I am trying to find pictures of it in german service but sucess till now.

Panzerknacker
09-02-2009, 08:59 PM
Oerlikon SSG:

I find another big fat swiss rifle, the SSG, Schweres Selbtsladen Gewehr or heavy selfloading rifle.

Two type were made one in 1935 wich used the short 20x72rb cartrigde at 545 mps. The other variant ( m1936), by far more usable for serous antitank purposes, employed the 20x110rb cartrigde at 790mps.

The gun used the famous non-locked system of Becker-oerlikon wich fired using the mass of the advancing bolt as opposing force to close the breech ( close for miliseconds that is).

An squematic of Becker-Oerlikon advanced primer ignition system, similar to an 22 or 380 blowback pistol but with the difference of firing at open bolt.

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/8375/99gunfastcz2.gif




The rifle used 5 or 10 round side feed magazines. This is the SSG 36 20x110mm

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/436/oerlikonssg36vu5.jpg


Apparently it wasnt purchased by the swiss army neither by the germans.

Churchill
09-02-2009, 09:08 PM
Nice animation PK.

Panzerknacker
09-02-2009, 09:22 PM
Yea , It is, thank god for japanese gun sites; i cant understand a thing but they got nice drawings.:)

steben
10-13-2009, 08:39 AM
It is wondering why the germans didn't use a panzerbüchse + MG in the Panzer I, instead of two MG's. These weapons didn't use to much energy and space and would've given the panzer at least some battle value against enemy light tanks.

Panzerknacker
10-27-2009, 08:27 PM
Actually there was a sort of...the Panzer I with Breda 20mm automatic gun, only saw some service in spanish Civil war because was locally converted by the Nationalist no in germany.

http://www.ipmsbogotaar.net/images/Galeria/panzer1f1.jpg

The italian Breda used the same 20x138b ammo of the Solos S-18-1000-1100 and Flak 30/38.

tankgeezer
10-27-2009, 09:19 PM
It is wondering why the germans didn't use a panzerbüchse + MG in the Panzer I, instead of two MG's. These weapons didn't use to much energy and space and would've given the panzer at least some battle value against enemy light tanks.
The P1 was intended as a training vehicle, and a development platform to establish the parameters for production of later models. It was never intended for use in combat, though that didnt stop it from ending up there. The #1's turret is very small, and though an A.T. rifle of some sort could have been shoehorned in, it is probable that it was better to incorporate that feature in the #2. The armor was very thin on the #1,( no more than 1/2 inch) and aside from the structural concerns of long term use of a 20x138 mm weapon, its presence on the #1 would leave it unable to protect itself from the attention that weapon would attract. Though this is only my opinion.

steben
10-28-2009, 03:14 AM
The P1 was intended as a training vehicle, and a development platform to establish the parameters for production of later models. It was never intended for use in combat, though that didnt stop it from ending up there. The #1's turret is very small, and though an A.T. rifle of some sort could have been shoehorned in, it is probable that it was better to incorporate that feature in the #2. The armor was very thin on the #1,( no more than 1/2 inch) and aside from the structural concerns of long term use of a 20x138 mm weapon, its presence on the #1 would leave it unable to protect itself from the attention that weapon would attract. Though this is only my opinion.

German panzers were underarmed when put next to their enemies with the same weight. Simple comparison tells a lot. Think of BT en T26 tanks at the time.
The II was again a little bit underarmed and the 37mm semi auto would have been the better gun. The stuborn decision to put 37mm in all what seemed to encounter enemy armor (Panzer III, halftracks, AT units) simply because the 37mm gun was available should have been stressed into the Panzer II, while giving the III the 50mm.

Attention: I get your point, yet I's were shot up in vast numbers anyway.

tankgeezer
10-28-2009, 10:13 AM
I'm sure they had their reasons. Designing a tank is more than a matter of mix n' match. Having the ability to design, manufacture, (on a large scale) and transport the thing is just the first consideration. Allocation of raw materials, production facilities, man power, truck, and rail services, all of that. And before all of that stuff there comes the committees, the meetings, from the guy who scribbled some pictures on a napkin, to materials development, not every material is sitting on a shelf waiting to be needed. What standardized parts may be used, what will be an all new component, (each also needing all of the above things) Then on to production processes, sorting out allocations for strategic materials,a stronger weapon will need stronger steel where do we find enough of it? Identifying, and reducing bottlenecks in production,, it makes one's head spin. Not to mention the mountains of paperwork, and record keeping for the record happy Reich.
One may want to field a Tiger, but the complex process to get it under a soldier's bum is the deciding factor in most cases, leaving you with the Panzer II. This outline is very simple, the actual process is immensely more complex.

steben
10-28-2009, 02:56 PM
I'm sure they had their reasons. Designing a tank is more than a matter of mix n' match. Having the ability to design, manufacture, (on a large scale) and transport the thing is just the first consideration. Allocation of raw materials, production facilities, man power, truck, and rail services, all of that. And before all of that stuff there comes the committees, the meetings, from the guy who scribbled some pictures on a napkin, to materials development, not every material is sitting on a shelf waiting to be needed. What standardized parts may be used, what will be an all new component, (each also needing all of the above things) Then on to production processes, sorting out allocations for strategic materials,a stronger weapon will need stronger steel where do we find enough of it? Identifying, and reducing bottlenecks in production,, it makes one's head spin. Not to mention the mountains of paperwork, and record keeping for the record happy Reich.
One may want to field a Tiger, but the complex process to get it under a soldier's bum is the deciding factor in most cases, leaving you with the Panzer II. This outline is very simple, the actual process is immensely more complex.

Precisely for these reasons, the Pz I should have been fielded as a light combat tank, not because it was a good one, but because it was useful. Putting a more potent gun (the 20mm is ideal) in the little thing was possible without enormous effort and resources.
And yes, the II was a logical step as well. very true. I'm not promoting the Tiger. I'm simply telling that not putting a 37mm gun on the II ("too much engineering"?!) and deliberately putting it on the III ("we simply have the 37") which is designed to take a 50mm one is a very awkward way of decision making. Of course, the true reasons were not logistics and resources at that point in history, yet internal politics...

tankgeezer
10-28-2009, 03:26 PM
you would have to take that up with the Reich's ministry that deals with such things, otherwise, its pretty much a game of woulda, coulda, shoulda. Though it seems that you have answered your own question. :)

steben
10-29-2009, 03:22 AM
you would have to take that up with the Reich's ministry that deals with such things, otherwise, its pretty much a game of woulda, coulda, shoulda. Though it seems that you have answered your own question. :)

:) true...

What I can make up of this discussion is that I'm not telling bullshit yet it just didn't happen?

tankgeezer
10-29-2009, 08:54 AM
Quote:"I'm not telling bullshit yet it just didn't happen? "
I'm not getting your meaning here neighbor, "What" didnt happen?

steben
10-29-2009, 04:41 PM
Quote:"I'm not telling bullshit yet it just didn't happen? "
I'm not getting your meaning here neighbor, "What" didnt happen?

My suggestions. What I mean is that it seems all I'm saying actually makes sense and was feasable, yet it just didn't happen in history.

tankgeezer
10-29-2009, 06:02 PM
Ah, okay now I get you, Agreed, they could have been more powerfully armed, at the time, I guess they built it as they could, and I'm glad they didnt up gun the early Pz's. Less trouble for the Allies later...
Retro fitting is a huge painful process, just look how long it took to add the armor packages to the Humvees in the Mid East.

JWilly48519
09-26-2010, 01:14 AM
Other hollow charge grenade used in the K-98 was the GGP series.
The Gewehrgranate zur Panzerbekämpfung ("rifle grenade for fighting tanks") of the company WASAG that was usually referred to under it's abbreviation GGP or GG/P, it also carried the designation GGP 40 or GG/P 40. This larger weapon's shaft could not fit into the SchB so a special spigot was attached to the muzzle in the rifle to fire it. Over this spigot fits the hollow tail-piece of the grenade. It is fitted to the rifle, in the same manner as a bayonet, over the bayonet standard and foresight block, and is locked in position by a spring-loaded bolt.

On firing the propelling cartridge, the gasses pass out of the barrel of the rifle, through the spigot, and into the hollow tail-piece to propel the grenade.

The GGP was put in service in mid 1940, weighed 520g and had a length of 23.4 cm. The warhead had a diameter of 60mm and carried a shaped charge of 175g that enabled the GGP to penetrate 40mm of armor.

As it could not achieve a spin from the Schiessbecher's rifling it had to depend on six stabilizing fins attached to the rear of it's shaft for flight stabilization.

I apologize for necro-responding on this, but the GG/P-40 is a current research interest.

The illustration (which I cannot quote-include because I don't have enough posts yet) shows a GG/P-40 loaded onto an infantryman's K98. This of course is from Osprey Elite 124 "WWII Infantry Anti-Tank Tactics".

> The GGP was put in service in mid 1940

I believe the illustration and quoted comment are incorrect. My understanding is that the Luftwaffe weapon bureau issued the contract to WASAG in late Summer or early Fall of 1940 to develop and manufacture what became GG/P-40, specifically because of the experience of fallshirmjaegers at the three airports peripheral to Hague, Holland. Those troopers were unable to be reinforced by glider or transport borne troops with heavier weapons because of airfield conditions and bombing damage to runways. Supposedly they had landed without PzB AT rifles, which would not fit the then-used containers, and found themselves without an effective anti-armor capability when counterattacked by Dutch armored cars. They were forced off all three airfields, and avoided being overrun only by consolidating and retreating to an area of soft sanddunes where the ACs could not operate effectively, and by the Dutch national surrender due to events elsewhere.

GG/P-40 hardly could have been available in mid 1940 if it began development in the July to September timeframe. My understanding instead is that GG/P-40 was not available in 1940 and in fact was not available for the 1941 Corinth drop, but was first fielded for the Crete operation in May 1941, in limited numbers.

It was found to be rather ineffective, not only because of its poor penetration and energy projection but also because the poor aerodynamics resulted in failure-to-fuze or excessively off-normal impact when fired in cross- or trailing breezes, and large dispersion due to the fins being too small.

As to showing GG/P-40 in use by infantrymen...I believe this is incorrect, in that only Luftwaffe ground units were issued this weapon, not regular army or SS units.

> As it could not achieve a spin from the Schiessbecher's rifling it had to depend on six stabilizing fins attached to the rear of it's shaft for flight stabilization.

Actually GG/P-40 had its own rifle launching attachment, a precursor to the later Scheissbecher, intended only for spigot type firing. It had a different sighting system and mounted to the rifle somewhat differently.

Both GG/P-40 and its launcher were withdrawn by the Luftwaffe in 1942 when the Heer weapons bureau introduced the 30mm rifled system with Scheissbecher launching attachment, thereby overcoming the aerodynamic and fuzing problems and delivering comparable (albeit obsolete) penetration performance even though with a smaller warhead diameter.

A number of statements posted to WWII discussion websites do say that GG/P-40 was fielded at some point in 1940, and/or used by the regular army or SS, but I haven't been able to find documentary support for any of these. If anyone has such supporting information of a reasonably authoritative nature, I'd appreciate a comment about it.

Panzerknacker
09-30-2010, 12:30 AM
No matter how long it takes, every comment in this old weapons systems is apreciated. Now that I think about it is quite likely your post is correct, supossedly the GGP was in service by the attack on France in may 1940, but so far I cant found a single photo of an infantrymen using it in that early date.

imi
11-24-2010, 06:36 AM
nice pics

tankgeezer
01-23-2013, 11:00 AM
Just to update the thread a bit, I ran across this episode of Weapons of Victory, a Russian TV show, its about the PTRS, and PTRD rifles, showing archival footage, as well as present day information.
http://youtu.be/d4d7H4J01NU