MINES!!!!!

[1000ydstare]

Just a few questions about mines.

How long, approximately, will it take to remove the minefields that were laid during the Argentine occupation of the Falklands?

And who is responsible for the lifting of the mines? Do the Argentines or UN provide any input in this task.

There are supposed to be some quite demanding problems with lifting the mines especially because alot of the specialist mining equipment is heavy and sinks in to the ground.

As a further sidenote was Argentina formally repremanded for laying the mines with out proper records in the first place?

[Panzerknacker]

The only thing I know for sure is that the Argentine engineers batallions laid down about 2000 antipersonal and some 500 antitank mines.

[Firefly]

Well having seen them, the Minefieds are cordoned off and just left to the Sheep.

Any that affect or may affect the local populace are dealt with by UK bomb disposal. As far as I'm aware there is no concious effort to remove them apart from the above.

[Topor]

One problem is that the peat these mines were laid in moves. Some of the stuff slides more than 2m a year, so theoretically the mines coud have moved nearly 50m since they were laid.

[LargeBrew]

This is the perenial problem with mines they're their the gift that keeps on giving. The defending forces had ample time to map the fields as they laid them but failed to do so and showed poor drills in their use.

Though I will admit to being rusty on this one, I seem to remember that we were trained to use mines on obvious approach routes and to the rear of the initial defensive position and forward of the fall back position with the safe route known. In the event that that your first line of defence went tits up you drop back through the safe route and draw attacking forces into the mine field.

I know that mines caused the assault on Longden to be compromised but apart from that they seemed to have had little strategic value in the eventual outcome as they had been laid mainly in sutable terrain ie soft earth rather than as part of a cohesive defensive stratagy, though I will admit that laying mines on a rocky path or a scree would be difficult.

[SS Tiger]

Do you know how many fatal and none fatal casualties we (British) had due to land mines?

[2nd of foot]

At this time it was very fashionable to air drop your mines from heli. I remember seeing GIAT, I think (and they were not the only ones) advertising how quickly you could lay them from the air. I also believe that large number were A/T mines. Not much use with only some CVRTs against them (would CVRT set off the mines?). If you think of the way we used to lay the Dingbat you could understand why they were not marked.

Have you ever laid mines by hand, it took my platoon most of the night to lay a 300m by 100m #7 mime field with 3x Else mines per #7, and the #7s had been pre dropped at the ends of the lanes.

[2nd of foot]

This has just reminded me. On my junior Brecon one of the Battle Field Exercises (BFE) was the extract a casualty from a minefield. This was Jan 83 and we had a lot of the 2 and 3 para on the course. One of the 3 para guys was given this BFE to run. At the end the DS riped him to bits (the DS was an arrse) for what he did. My room mate who was 2 para whispered in my ear that the L/Cpl got an MM in the Falklands for extracting a casualty from a mine field under fire. The 3 para guy kept his mouth shut and smiled at the knob.

[Fifiloo]

The mined beaches that were cordoned off have become a protected habitat for some of the island's creatures.

http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/32706/story.htm

[Panzerknacker]

I have no many info about the incident you mentioned, I know that there was some troubles when Captured soldier were put in service with the British demining squad and some soldiers (british soldier) were wounded or killed by the mines. The Argentine prisoner were inmediatly discharged of that duty probably because the Royal engineers think they intentionally gave misleading directives. :roll:

[1000ydstare]

Doubt it, the Argies didn't record the positions of their own mines. He probably didn't have a clue himself.

[Panzerknacker]

That was because mostly of the prisoners that the brits brought to that work were marines...and the Marines did not put a single landmine in all the campaing. The engineer batallions who plant the mines return to the mainland before the fall of Puerto Argentino.

Is impressive the large trouble caused by "just" 2400 mines ( 1500 antipersonnel and 900 antitank) .

[1000ydstare]

If you have ever been in a mined area you will be even more impressed by the trouble :D

It is something that always puzzled me about the minelaying. The Engr Bns must have known the drama they would cause by not recording them. Maybe it was a political thing by the Bn CO.

[Panzerknacker]

It is something that always puzzled me about the minelaying. The Engr Bns must have known the drama they would cause by not recording them. Maybe it was a political thing by the Bn CO.

Maybe, but after 25 years of demining operations the problem should be lesser that the one actually is today. Most of the mines were planted in locations that the brits never passed by.
If you travel sometimes to the islands you ll see 2 well mannered Army sargeants giving away brochures and instructions of how to proceed if you see ot found some mine in the Stanley airport. The problem is far to be solved.

[Panzerknacker]

Last post merged to this topic.

[1000ydstare]

Never seen the Sgts, but wrt the Political thing, could the CO of the Engr Bn that laid them been hoping for a slot on the Islands afterwards?

Or worse was he bonkers enough to destroy any maps in order to hinder the British/Argie POW efforts?

[Panzerknacker]

I dont know, but I now something, is very unlikely due the politics times that the British Army allowed an comission of Argentine personnel collaborating with them in order to erase this menace for the Islanders...so is time to the Brits to move their hands and remove that mines, perhaps they need some Sherman Crad to have the job done.


http://www.strijdbewijs.nl/hinder/FLAIL02.JPG

[Cuts]

Demining's not really your forte is it ? :)

Anyway, had personel involved in laying the fields been available I can assure you that the British Army - or any other professional team for that matter - would have wanted them to assist in the demining.

[Panzerknacker]

Demining's not really your forte is it ?

I would say that is not the specialty of the British army either because 25 years for remove less than 2400 mines...It dont seems a remarkable achievement.

In any case I am pretty sure that the Argentine Army will have no trouble colaborating, just provide some location in the isles to place a Argie permanent military base with all the needed supplies and they would be pleased to help.

[1000ydstare]

Panzerknacker, you turn up at the Falklands with your Sherman Crab and see how many mines you managed to remove.

I'm guessing one. (and I am being generous, in assuming there will be a mine one meter from where you start)

Before the Crab is bogged in to the eyeballs in the soft peat. That goes for ALL of the modern Armoured Mine removal devices.

The British de-miners are moving their hands because that is the only way to de-mine the Falklands. Hence slowly, we only have so many men trained to do this, they are also required in the Balkans and Cyprus amongst other places.

Dealt with on priority basis, the minefields in the middle of nowhere are allowed to remain, whilst more important fields are removed.

Personally I would have demanded the Engrs from Argentina. The mongs that laid them should be forced to dig 'em up again. That will teach them, and the others in the world, that proper records should be made of where they are bloody buried!!!!

[2nd of foot]

The other problem is that the mines move due to the type of ground.

As for de-mining expertise, I think you will find that the RE teams knowledge and experience is very high on this front.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_clearance

Currently, the main methods used for humanitarian demining on land are manual detection using metal detectors and prodders, detection by specially trained mine detection dogs, and mechanical clearance using armoured vehicles fitted with flails, tiller or similar devices. In many circumstances, the only method that meets the United Nations' requirements for effective humanitarian demining, the International Mine Action Standards, [1] is manual detection and disarmament

Very good over view and answers a number of your questions Panzerknacker. Go down to Landmine Situation.

http://maic.jmu.edu/JOURNAL/5.2/focus/falklands.htm

[Panzerknacker]

Personally I would have demanded the Engrs from Argentina


We are back ¡¡¡¡ :mrgreen:

Very good over view and answers a number of your questions Panzerknacker. Go down to Landmine Situation.

http://maic.jmu.edu/JOURNAL/5.2/focus/falklands.htm

Thxs for the link.

[Panzerknacker]

Incidentally I ve found some media about the demining operations.


http://rapidshare.com/files/22251715/Desminado.wmv.html


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/180/430396668_657bf3ab78.jpg



http://farm1.static.flickr.com/163/430396679_245695e9ff.jpg

[1000ydstare]

If they were available they could be used, but as 2nd of Foot states someone has to go over the area by finger touch to confirm that the area is clear. Really clear.

There can be no or little chance of an undetected mine going off. Different risks accepted for military clearance.

I wonder what would have happened if we had kept all of the invasion force on the Islands "untill every last mine has been picked up and accounted for"?! :D

The mines incidentaly are another reason why the Islanders don't have too much affectionfor the Argies.

[Panzerknacker]

Dont think so, since is no shared ownership of the islands, there is no shared responsability. Do you see any british bomb squad in Hannover, Hamburg or Dresden ?


wonder what would have happened if we had kept all of the invasion force on the Islands "untill every last mine has been picked up and accounted for"?!

Tha was the idea, but this plan was cancelled by reason I ve explained already.


he mines incidentaly are another reason why the Islanders don't have too much affectionfor the Argies.


Oh...they probably werent our fans before

[1000ydstare]

Dont think so, since is no shared ownership of the islands, there is no shared responsability. Do you see any british bomb squad in Hannover, Hamburg or Dresden ?

While I didn't see them, as I wasn't born... yes. British EOD/Bomb Disposal engineers were in use all over occupied Germany after the end of WW2. Also British/allied supported German EOD types.

Incidentaly, even today, some EOD finds are dealt with by the British EOD as opposed to German. Just depends who is closer. Likewise Poland Exercise areas have had UXO disposed of by British EOD teams. Often it depends who has the knowledge, British EOD teams often have better knowledge of British dropped bombs.

Like wise Britain still contributes to French and Belgium efforts at EOD on the WW1 battlefields that still yield a harvest nearly 100 years after the event.

British EOD still demines/makes safe danger zones all over the place. Including Iraq, Afgan, Cyprus, the Balkans and South Africa. Also Kenya.

The Cyprus based Argentine UN troops call in British EOD to defuse mines and booby traps found by them. I know this, as they have done it while I was there, I took the call. They have no EOD assets in place.

Your point regards the Falklands being?

That people can lay such evil devices and then just flounce off in a hissy fit because they were defeated perhaps?

Bosnians and Kosovans from all sides are currently working to defuse their legacy minefields. Not necesarily the men that laid them, but certainly their brothers and sisters.

[Panzerknacker]

I guess there is few excuses then...however since the UN have no task for Argentine military the islands is very unlikely to see this.

The Argentine sematary is the island is forbbiden to have flags...so you think that somebody would allow the Army again...not a chance.

[1000ydstare]

To be honest it doesn't work that way.

The UN raise a request of what personnel they need.

Ie we need 2 inf bns, 1 tank bn, a sig bn and a engr bn (for example).

Then countries put forward what they have got.

It obviously gets a bit complicated when you add specifics such as Alpine troops, EOD or similar.

The UN can only request troops, not demand or automaticaly use.

It is strange, but Pakistan is the country that provides the most troops for UN forces.

I think the Argentines have a Infantry Bn, reinforced. in Cyprus. It has a few more men than the average Bn and a few extra support bods, drivers etc.