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1000ydstare
02-19-2006, 10:37 AM
Just a few questions about mines.

How long, approximately, will it take to remove the minefields that were laid during the Argentine occupation of the Falklands?

And who is responsible for the lifting of the mines? Do the Argentines or UN provide any input in this task.

There are supposed to be some quite demanding problems with lifting the mines especially because alot of the specialist mining equipment is heavy and sinks in to the ground.

As a further sidenote was Argentina formally repremanded for laying the mines with out proper records in the first place?

Panzerknacker
02-19-2006, 11:54 AM
The only thing I know for sure is that the Argentine engineers batallions laid down about 2000 antipersonal and some 500 antitank mines.

Firefly
02-19-2006, 01:18 PM
Well having seen them, the Minefieds are cordoned off and just left to the Sheep.

Any that affect or may affect the local populace are dealt with by UK bomb disposal. As far as I'm aware there is no concious effort to remove them apart from the above.

Topor
02-19-2006, 06:21 PM
One problem is that the peat these mines were laid in moves. Some of the stuff slides more than 2m a year, so theoretically the mines coud have moved nearly 50m since they were laid.

LargeBrew
02-19-2006, 10:21 PM
This is the perenial problem with mines they're their the gift that keeps on giving. The defending forces had ample time to map the fields as they laid them but failed to do so and showed poor drills in their use.

Though I will admit to being rusty on this one, I seem to remember that we were trained to use mines on obvious approach routes and to the rear of the initial defensive position and forward of the fall back position with the safe route known. In the event that that your first line of defence went tits up you drop back through the safe route and draw attacking forces into the mine field.

I know that mines caused the assault on Longden to be compromised but apart from that they seemed to have had little strategic value in the eventual outcome as they had been laid mainly in sutable terrain ie soft earth rather than as part of a cohesive defensive stratagy, though I will admit that laying mines on a rocky path or a scree would be difficult.

SS Tiger
02-19-2006, 10:57 PM
Do you know how many fatal and none fatal casualties we (British) had due to land mines?

2nd of foot
02-20-2006, 02:47 PM
At this time it was very fashionable to air drop your mines from heli. I remember seeing GIAT, I think (and they were not the only ones) advertising how quickly you could lay them from the air. I also believe that large number were A/T mines. Not much use with only some CVRTs against them (would CVRT set off the mines?). If you think of the way we used to lay the Dingbat you could understand why they were not marked.

Have you ever laid mines by hand, it took my platoon most of the night to lay a 300m by 100m #7 mime field with 3x Else mines per #7, and the #7s had been pre dropped at the ends of the lanes.

2nd of foot
02-20-2006, 03:11 PM
This has just reminded me. On my junior Brecon one of the Battle Field Exercises (BFE) was the extract a casualty from a minefield. This was Jan 83 and we had a lot of the 2 and 3 para on the course. One of the 3 para guys was given this BFE to run. At the end the DS riped him to bits (the DS was an arrse) for what he did. My room mate who was 2 para whispered in my ear that the L/Cpl got an MM in the Falklands for extracting a casualty from a mine field under fire. The 3 para guy kept his mouth shut and smiled at the knob.

Fifiloo
01-13-2007, 10:41 AM
The mined beaches that were cordoned off have become a protected habitat for some of the island's creatures.

http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/32706/story.htm

Panzerknacker
04-11-2007, 06:51 PM
I have no many info about the incident you mentioned, I know that there was some troubles when Captured soldier were put in service with the British demining squad and some soldiers (british soldier) were wounded or killed by the mines. The Argentine prisoner were inmediatly discharged of that duty probably because the Royal engineers think they intentionally gave misleading directives. :roll:

1000ydstare
04-13-2007, 02:51 AM
Doubt it, the Argies didn't record the positions of their own mines. He probably didn't have a clue himself.

Panzerknacker
04-13-2007, 07:34 PM
That was because mostly of the prisoners that the brits brought to that work were marines...and the Marines did not put a single landmine in all the campaing. The engineer batallions who plant the mines return to the mainland before the fall of Puerto Argentino.

Is impressive the large trouble caused by "just" 2400 mines ( 1500 antipersonnel and 900 antitank) .

1000ydstare
04-14-2007, 03:42 AM
If you have ever been in a mined area you will be even more impressed by the trouble :D

It is something that always puzzled me about the minelaying. The Engr Bns must have known the drama they would cause by not recording them. Maybe it was a political thing by the Bn CO.

Panzerknacker
04-14-2007, 05:56 PM
It is something that always puzzled me about the minelaying. The Engr Bns must have known the drama they would cause by not recording them. Maybe it was a political thing by the Bn CO.

Maybe, but after 25 years of demining operations the problem should be lesser that the one actually is today. Most of the mines were planted in locations that the brits never passed by.
If you travel sometimes to the islands you ll see 2 well mannered Army sargeants giving away brochures and instructions of how to proceed if you see ot found some mine in the Stanley airport. The problem is far to be solved.

Panzerknacker
04-15-2007, 06:39 PM
Last post merged to this topic.

1000ydstare
04-15-2007, 11:55 PM
Never seen the Sgts, but wrt the Political thing, could the CO of the Engr Bn that laid them been hoping for a slot on the Islands afterwards?

Or worse was he bonkers enough to destroy any maps in order to hinder the British/Argie POW efforts?

Panzerknacker
04-16-2007, 11:32 AM
I dont know, but I now something, is very unlikely due the politics times that the British Army allowed an comission of Argentine personnel collaborating with them in order to erase this menace for the Islanders...so is time to the Brits to move their hands and remove that mines, perhaps they need some Sherman Crad to have the job done.


http://www.strijdbewijs.nl/hinder/FLAIL02.JPG

Cuts
04-16-2007, 01:19 PM
Demining's not really your forte is it ? :)

Anyway, had personel involved in laying the fields been available I can assure you that the British Army - or any other professional team for that matter - would have wanted them to assist in the demining.

Panzerknacker
04-16-2007, 06:00 PM
Demining's not really your forte is it ?

I would say that is not the specialty of the British army either because 25 years for remove less than 2400 mines...It dont seems a remarkable achievement.

In any case I am pretty sure that the Argentine Army will have no trouble colaborating, just provide some location in the isles to place a Argie permanent military base with all the needed supplies and they would be pleased to help.

1000ydstare
04-17-2007, 12:09 AM
Panzerknacker, you turn up at the Falklands with your Sherman Crab and see how many mines you managed to remove.

I'm guessing one. (and I am being generous, in assuming there will be a mine one meter from where you start)

Before the Crab is bogged in to the eyeballs in the soft peat. That goes for ALL of the modern Armoured Mine removal devices.

The British de-miners are moving their hands because that is the only way to de-mine the Falklands. Hence slowly, we only have so many men trained to do this, they are also required in the Balkans and Cyprus amongst other places.

Dealt with on priority basis, the minefields in the middle of nowhere are allowed to remain, whilst more important fields are removed.

Personally I would have demanded the Engrs from Argentina. The mongs that laid them should be forced to dig 'em up again. That will teach them, and the others in the world, that proper records should be made of where they are bloody buried!!!!

2nd of foot
04-17-2007, 05:24 AM
The other problem is that the mines move due to the type of ground.

As for de-mining expertise, I think you will find that the RE teams knowledge and experience is very high on this front.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_clearance


Currently, the main methods used for humanitarian demining on land are manual detection using metal detectors and prodders, detection by specially trained mine detection dogs, and mechanical clearance using armoured vehicles fitted with flails, tiller or similar devices. In many circumstances, the only method that meets the United Nations' requirements for effective humanitarian demining, the International Mine Action Standards, [1] is manual detection and disarmament

Very good over view and answers a number of your questions Panzerknacker. Go down to Landmine Situation.

http://maic.jmu.edu/JOURNAL/5.2/focus/falklands.htm

Panzerknacker
04-17-2007, 03:17 PM
Personally I would have demanded the Engrs from Argentina


We are back ¡¡¡¡ :mrgreen:


Very good over view and answers a number of your questions Panzerknacker. Go down to Landmine Situation.

http://maic.jmu.edu/JOURNAL/5.2/focus/falklands.htm

Thxs for the link.

Panzerknacker
04-17-2007, 06:43 PM
Incidentally I ve found some media about the demining operations.


http://rapidshare.com/files/22251715/Desminado.wmv.html


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/180/430396668_657bf3ab78.jpg



http://farm1.static.flickr.com/163/430396679_245695e9ff.jpg

1000ydstare
04-18-2007, 12:11 AM
If they were available they could be used, but as 2nd of Foot states someone has to go over the area by finger touch to confirm that the area is clear. Really clear.

There can be no or little chance of an undetected mine going off. Different risks accepted for military clearance.

I wonder what would have happened if we had kept all of the invasion force on the Islands "untill every last mine has been picked up and accounted for"?! :D

The mines incidentaly are another reason why the Islanders don't have too much affectionfor the Argies.

Panzerknacker
04-18-2007, 12:10 PM
Dont think so, since is no shared ownership of the islands, there is no shared responsability. Do you see any british bomb squad in Hannover, Hamburg or Dresden ?



wonder what would have happened if we had kept all of the invasion force on the Islands "untill every last mine has been picked up and accounted for"?!

Tha was the idea, but this plan was cancelled by reason I ve explained already.



he mines incidentaly are another reason why the Islanders don't have too much affectionfor the Argies.


Oh...they probably werent our fans before

1000ydstare
04-18-2007, 02:51 PM
Dont think so, since is no shared ownership of the islands, there is no shared responsability. Do you see any british bomb squad in Hannover, Hamburg or Dresden ?

While I didn't see them, as I wasn't born... yes. British EOD/Bomb Disposal engineers were in use all over occupied Germany after the end of WW2. Also British/allied supported German EOD types.

Incidentaly, even today, some EOD finds are dealt with by the British EOD as opposed to German. Just depends who is closer. Likewise Poland Exercise areas have had UXO disposed of by British EOD teams. Often it depends who has the knowledge, British EOD teams often have better knowledge of British dropped bombs.

Like wise Britain still contributes to French and Belgium efforts at EOD on the WW1 battlefields that still yield a harvest nearly 100 years after the event.

British EOD still demines/makes safe danger zones all over the place. Including Iraq, Afgan, Cyprus, the Balkans and South Africa. Also Kenya.

The Cyprus based Argentine UN troops call in British EOD to defuse mines and booby traps found by them. I know this, as they have done it while I was there, I took the call. They have no EOD assets in place.

Your point regards the Falklands being?

That people can lay such evil devices and then just flounce off in a hissy fit because they were defeated perhaps?

Bosnians and Kosovans from all sides are currently working to defuse their legacy minefields. Not necesarily the men that laid them, but certainly their brothers and sisters.

Panzerknacker
04-20-2007, 08:35 AM
I guess there is few excuses then...however since the UN have no task for Argentine military the islands is very unlikely to see this.

The Argentine sematary is the island is forbbiden to have flags...so you think that somebody would allow the Army again...not a chance.

1000ydstare
04-20-2007, 11:00 AM
To be honest it doesn't work that way.

The UN raise a request of what personnel they need.

Ie we need 2 inf bns, 1 tank bn, a sig bn and a engr bn (for example).

Then countries put forward what they have got.

It obviously gets a bit complicated when you add specifics such as Alpine troops, EOD or similar.

The UN can only request troops, not demand or automaticaly use.

It is strange, but Pakistan is the country that provides the most troops for UN forces.

I think the Argentines have a Infantry Bn, reinforced. in Cyprus. It has a few more men than the average Bn and a few extra support bods, drivers etc.

leccy
02-16-2009, 04:16 PM
De-mining does not have to be done by military personnel
In many countries it is done by civilians trained by Military or Ex military personel.

Contributing to the cost of removing the mines or a civilian de-mining team would not be as politically sensitive as actually having troops doing the job.

As for clearing a minefield (as opposed to just breaching it for an assault) it takes a huge amount of effort 'Been there done it got the T shirt'


Moreover, heavy warfare left numerous areas burdened with landmines. Authorities at Port Stanley point out that there are currently 117 mine fields on the island containing approximately 25,000 anti-personnel and anti-vehicle mines

In all, 4,220 mines and 2,713,658 pieces of UXO have been removed from the islands.

These mine fields are dispersed over a total area of 20 sq. km throughout the vicinities of Port Stanley, Port Howard, Fox Bay and Goose Green. The UN declared that there were nine different types of AT and AP landmines used during the conflict. The five AT mines are the No6 (Israel), SB-81 (Italy), FMK-3 plastic blast mine (Argentina), C-3-A/B (Spain) and the M1A1 (United States). The four AP mines (approx. 5,000) are the No4 (Israel), SB-33 (Italy), FMK-1 plastic blast mine (Argentina) and the P-4-B (Spain).

Nickdfresh
02-16-2009, 08:34 PM
Ex-military UXO techs are very expensive, and notoriously slow...

leccy
02-17-2009, 02:53 PM
To fully clear a minefield or even be able to declare an area Free From Ordanance of all types takes a very very long time.

With no records of types or spacings not even of quantitys and whether any are booby trapped how fast would you work.

While breaching a minefield at night we were supposed to clear a metre a minute with the prodders in actual practice it was more like 1 m every 5 mins and you still would be unable to find deep buried mines (never mind the rear twitching everytime you hit a stone or other hard object buried)

Panzerknacker
02-17-2009, 04:14 PM
In all, 4,220 mines and 2,713,658 pieces of UXO have been removed from the islands.



More that 2 million ?? was the Somme, Paeschendale or Verdun fought in Malvinas maybe ?

Nickdfresh
02-17-2009, 07:10 PM
A "UXO" can be a bullet, or a piece of something else...

Nickdfresh
02-17-2009, 07:11 PM
To fully clear a minefield or even be able to declare an area Free From Ordanance of all types takes a very very long time.

With no records of types or spacings not even of quantitys and whether any are booby trapped how fast would you work.

While breaching a minefield at night we were supposed to clear a metre a minute with the prodders in actual practice it was more like 1 m every 5 mins and you still would be unable to find deep buried mines (never mind the rear twitching everytime you hit a stone or other hard object buried)


True. But often "safety" is used as an excuse to take it very easy...

Rising Sun*
02-18-2009, 03:43 AM
Ex-military UXO techs are very expensive, and notoriously slow...

I don't blame them.

So would I be, when there is none of the urgency which may accompany military operations.

leccy
02-18-2009, 02:10 PM
As I said there is a big difference between 'Clearing an area' and a combat style breach.

To clear and area you have to be 100% sure there is no ordanance/mines of any kind at any depth.

Many onlookers seem to be of the opinion that it can be done quicker 'When I offered them the kit they buggered off quite sharpish'
One little mistake and you very very rarely get another chance

While in Bosnia we had an area that was declared safe by another countries Engineers 'A week later on bloke missing half a foot another his family jewels' and that mine was on the surface not buried.

leccy
02-18-2009, 02:14 PM
More that 2 million ?? was the Somme, Paeschendale or Verdun fought in Malvinas maybe ?

The typical reply of someone who does not actually understand the nature of fighting and the terminology used.

UXO - Unexploded Ordanance (Anything that could and or should go bang)

Panzerknacker
02-18-2009, 03:27 PM
So..in my house there is about 1600 UXOs. .22, 9mm, 12 gauge and 16 gauge.

Can I call the British army here ?

Honestly I think "Unexploded ordinance" are big words for a 7.62mm cartrigde.

leccy
02-19-2009, 04:55 PM
Panzerknacker
Re: MINES!!!!!
So..in my house there is about 1600 UXOs. .22, 9mm, 12 gauge and 16 gauge.

Can I call the British army here ?

Honestly I think "Unexploded ordinance" are big words for a 7.62mm cartrigde.


Ah the limited knowledge which goes along way

But as an aside this topic was about how long to remove the mines from the Falklands 'Not your living room' and since you got the number of mines wrong by a long shot and even contradicted yourself in posts on here with the quantitys it may be best to actulally talk about things you really do know about and listen to others who actually know about the subject instead of turning all talks on the Falkland Islands into 'They belong to us and you are all wrong pissing contests'

Every bullet, mine, bomblet, bomb, arty shell, grenade etc has the potential to kill

1 Do you have little kids running round picking up shiney interesting stuff in your house.

2 Do you have domesticated animals freely wandering about your sitting room.

Dont try to compare a battlefield with your comfortable house which is supervised with all ammunition 'Hopefully' secured away from inquisitive hands.

Panzerknacker
02-19-2009, 06:09 PM
But as an aside this topic was about how long to remove the mines from the Falklands 'Not your living room' and since you got the number of mines wrong by a long shot and even contradicted yourself in posts on here


The numbers I gave were not completely wrong, some 5,000 and some mines did were buried by Army engineers, the problem was I wasnt aware that the Marines also emplaced several mines.

Not what was the quatity of that?

Honestly I dont know, in Argentine sources I find between 10,000 to 15.000, in other forum ( militaryphotos.net) some guy said 25,000 mines, ( actually I was quickly expelled for not agreeing with that figure)

Now...your figure of 4,220 mines seems more or less real, unfortunately with that denomination of UXOs putting in the same bag a Nato cartrigde and a 105 howitzer round did not help. It would be interesting to know the figures per type.



with the quantitys it may be best to actulally talk about things you really do know about and listen to others who actually know about the subject instead of turning all talks on the Falkland Islands into 'They belong to us and you are all wrong pissing contests'


Silly, really silly, I dont remember putting that phrase here and I dont because I didnt put it. :rolleyes:
I was shocked by your figure of 2,713,658 million of UXOs because I know for sure that the Armed Forces did not deployed that quantity of mines and/or artillery shells, not even combining all the stock of 60,81,105,120 and 155mm.

But since the humble 7,62x51mm has been elevated to a new category ...well that explain a lot of things.

leccy
02-20-2009, 01:11 PM
Panzerknacker

I have never yet found any form of ordanance to be humble when it is incoming or when removing even a single round from kids who are playing with them.

The longer they are left around then the more unstable and dangerous they generally get

Alot of Argentinean munitions were incorrectly stored and some had become unstable even during the conflict never mind while sitting outside for over twenty years.

You are trying to put a nice safe adult at home image onto stuff that has been left outside or buried for years. This thread was about clearing the mines and how long it would take and you questioned and declared disbelief in how long it would take or even what was out there.
You tried to mock and joke about things you obviously have no concept of and definately no actual experience of 'unlike myself'
I do not find anthing remotely amusing about ordanance being left around I have been and had to pick up the pieces afterwards of 'Humble bullets that cost kids their lives and or maimed them'

So you got a rise from me and all your topics and posts have now gone down in my estimation since you seem to have a 'I am right no matter what attitude (Yes I have seen your post where you actually state that)'

tankgeezer
02-22-2009, 01:56 AM
Yawn,,,

pdf27
02-22-2009, 05:38 AM
Topic locked.
PK, when talking about a subject you know nothing about I **STRONGLY** suggest you stop acting like a cretin and listen to people who actually know what they're talking about.