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Panzerknacker
02-07-2006, 10:38 AM
A collection of Paper proyects, "one of a kind" vehicles and others.

Panzerkampfwagen IX

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/3982/pzkpfw9a1sq.jpg

Panzerkampfwagen X

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/273/pzkpfw9b6po.jpg

Panzerknacker
02-07-2006, 10:39 AM
Landkreuzer P-1500 "Monster"

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/3339/p15003zg.jpg

This is a proyect af a self propelled 1500 tn 80 centimer howitzer very much like the Dora but mounted over 4 diesel electric traction tracks......crazy :shock:

Panzerknacker
02-07-2006, 10:44 AM
Edited:

I have post updated info.

Panzerknacker
02-07-2006, 10:46 AM
A heavy Henschel desing.:

Panzerkampfwagen VII "Löwe" , (lion) VK 7201

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/9331/lowe1it.jpg

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/90/lowe23ea.jpg

The development of super heavy tank started as early as 1941, when Krupp started the studies of superheavy Soviet tanks. In November of 1941, it was specified that the new heavy tank was to have 140mm front and 100mm thick side armor. The vehicle was to be operated by 5 men crew - 3 in the turret and 2 in the hull. This new panzer was to have maximum speed of some 44km/h being powered by 1000hp Daimler-Benz marine engine used in Schnellboot (torpedo boat). The main armament was to be mounted in the turret. The weight was to be up 90 tons. In the early months of 1942, Krupp was ordered to start the process of designing new heavy tank designated PzKpfw VII Löwe (VK7201). Its design was based on previous project by Krupp designated VK7001 (Tiger-Maus) and created in competition with Porsche's designs (including first Maus designs).VK7001 was to be armed with either 150mm Kanone L/37 (or L/40) or 105mm KwK L/70 gun. Lowe was to utilize Tiger II's components in order to simplify the production and service.

Designers planned to build two variants of this streamlined vehicle with rear mounted turret. Light (leichte) variant would have frontal armor protection of 100mm and it would weight 76 tons. Heavy (schwere) variant would have frontal armor protection of 120mm and it would weight 90 tons. Both variants would be armed with 105mm L/70 gun and coaxial machine gun.It is known that 90ton schwere Löwe was to have its turret mounted centrally and in overall design resembled future Tiger II.Variants of Löwe were both to be operated by the crew of five. It was calculated that their maximum speed would range from 23km/h (schwere) to 27km/h (leichte).

Adolf Hitler ordered that the design Leichte Löwe was to be dropped in favour of Schwere Löwe. Lion was to be redesigned in order to carry 150mm L/40 or 150mm L/37 ( probably 150mm KwK 44 L/38 ) gun and its frontal armor protection was to be changed to 140mm. In order to improve its performance, 900-1000mm wide tracks were to be used and top speed was to be increased to 30km/h.

In late 1942, this project was cancelled in favour of the development of the Maus. During the development of Tiger II, designers planned to build redesigned version of Löwe (as suggested by Oberst Fichtner), which would be armed with 88mm KwK L/71 gun and its frontal armor protection would be 140mm (as planned before). Redesigned Löwe would be able to travel at maximum speed of 35km/h and it would weight 90 tons. It was to be powered by Maybach HL 230 P 30, 12-cylinder engine producing 800hp. Löwe would be 7.74 meters long (with the gun), 3.83 meters wide and 3.08 meters high. Löwe would be operated by the crew of five. It was planned that Löwe would eventually replace Tiger II.
Also it would be fitted with the 128 mm L/60 gun.

From February to May of 1942, six different designs were considered, all based on the requirements for Löwe. On March 5/6th of 1942, order for heavier tank was placed and project Löwe was stopped in July of 1942. Löwe project never reached the prototype stage but it paved the way for its successor's development - Porsche's Maus.

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/4654/untitled8ur.png


Typ: Kampfpanzer
Gefechtsmasse: 90.000 Kg
Länge:7.74 m
Breite:3.84 m
Höhe:3.08 m
Motor: 1 Zwölfszylinder-Benzinmotor
Leistung: 700 PS ( Maybach HL) 1000 hp ( Daimler-Benz)
Fahrwerk: Kette; 9 Laufrollen - Stützrollen
Höchstgeschwindigkeit: 25-32 km/h Straße / Gelände: 15 km/h
Fahrbereich: 160 km Straße / Gelände 80 km/h
Bewaffnung: eine 12,5 cm Kanone L/60; ein Koaxial MG;
Munitionsvorrat: Kanone: 22 Schuss, MG 2700 Schuss
Panzerung: Front 240 mm, Seite 120 mm
Besatzung: 5 Mann

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/6193/109ftrial32ga.jpg

Man of Stoat
02-07-2006, 11:47 AM
A collection of Paper proyects, "one of a kind" vehicles and others.

Panzerkampfwagen IX

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/3982/pzkpfw9a1sq.jpg

Panzerkampfwagen X

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/273/pzkpfw9b6po.jpg

Are you trying to tell us that the Germans designed 2 tanks with similar ground clearance to those great off-road vehicles supplied by Ferrari?

Panzerknacker
02-07-2006, 11:52 AM
No, that is only a pic to initiate the topic, those childish pictures were published in the propaganda magazine Signal only to deceive the allies.

Seems that it work with you :D ....


Are you trying to tell us that the Germans designed 2 tanks with similar ground clearance to those great off-road vehicles supplied by Ferrari?

Man of Stoat
02-07-2006, 12:36 PM
No, that is only a pic to initiate the topic, those childish pictures were published in the propaganda magazine Signal only to deceive the allies.

Seems that it work with you :D ....


Are you trying to tell us that the Germans designed 2 tanks with similar ground clearance to those great off-road vehicles supplied by Ferrari?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

Twitch1
02-07-2006, 02:43 PM
Seen a couple but mostly very enlightening images. :shock:

HG
02-07-2006, 04:09 PM
It looks to me that the Germans looked at bigger is beter when it came to tanks. In tanks it is not always a good thing to build big tanks because it can bite you back in the behind.

I think speed and mobulaty and also power is your biggest problem.

Nice info keep it up.

Henk

Panzerknacker
02-07-2006, 07:36 PM
No, that is only a pic to initiate the topic, those childish pictures were published in the propaganda magazine Signal only to deceive the allies.

Seems that it work with you :D ....


Are you trying to tell us that the Germans designed 2 tanks with similar ground clearance to those great off-road vehicles supplied by Ferrari?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

.... :mrgreen:


It looks to me that the Germans looked at bigger is beter when it came to tanks. In tanks it is not always a good thing to build big tanks because it can bite you back in the behind.

I think speed and mobulaty and also power is your biggest problem.

Very true in most cases.

----------------------



The E-series:

The E-Series program was conceived by Dipl Ing Heinrich Ernst Kniekamp, Chief Engineer of Waffenpruefamt 6 in May of 1942. In April of 1943, Heereswaffenamt (Army Weapons Office) accepted his program and ordered many different manufacturers to start the planning and development of the Entwicklung (project/development) / Einheitsfahrgestell (general purpose chassis) Series. It was designed in order to replace armored vehicles and tanks that were used by the German Army from 1945 onwards. All six basic designs of E-Series would have standardized parts making their production, maintenance and service easier and cheaper


E-10 (10-25 tons) Height: 1.74 m

Designed by Klockner-Humboldt-Deutz Magirus AG in Ulm.
light multipurpose tank,
light test chassis,
replacement for PzKpfw 38(t) and conversions built on its chassis,
redesigned and enlarged chassis of 38(t) designated 38(d) (German),
armored personnel carrier,
light/medium Jagdpanzer,
light/medium waffentragers.

The E-10 jagdpanzer version armed with the 75mm L/48 Stuk 40.


http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/4351/22yb.png

MG-42 with shield in the top, I am not sure that it was remote controlled.

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/3572/18ps.png

Panzerknacker
02-07-2006, 08:06 PM
In October of 1943, prototype of PzKpfw III Ausf N als Schienen-Kettenfahrzeug was tested. Three Ausf Ns (mounted with railway suspension by Sauer Werke of Vienna) were converted to travel by rail at maximum speed of 100km/h. They were to be used to protect the rail network behind the frontlines in East. Only three prototypes were produced but further development of this project was cancelled.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/5359/dibujo7pc.jpg

The gun in this vehicle is a 75mm L24.

http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/1892/panzeriii22sm.jpg

Panzerknacker
02-08-2006, 06:27 PM
The heavier jagdpanzer E-25. Designed by Porsche.

The top small turret use a EW-141 20 mm gun....anti-aircraft maybe ?
Weight : 25 tons; Hull length: 5.66 m

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/1374/11qa.png

Some influence from the Russian SU-series from this angle.

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/7651/25qk.png

HG
02-08-2006, 06:35 PM
Nice, very nice indeed. It does look a bit too small for a crew to man it but who knows. I just wonder what happend to all the strange prototypes after the war.

Tanks these days does not have a role anymore and there are not any tank VS tank battles anymore.

Henk

Panzerknacker
02-08-2006, 10:04 PM
The Entwicklung E-50

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/8364/e506gh.jpg

Proposed replacement for the Panther, it used about 60% same components as the Pz V and the Schmalturm of Panther Ausf F, with his increased side armour.

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/5505/35yq.png

Also it had a improved transmition, one of the weakest item in the Panther and other minor changes in order to ease the production.

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/6122/21ez.png

Weight: about 50-55 tons, Engine: 750 hp.
Even the muzzle brake was deleted in the KWK 75mm L/70 to save raw materials. Side armour 60-65 mm, front armour 100-110 mm.

Very good looking tank. Check the new 6 faced turret.

http://img330.imageshack.us/img330/6825/e507pj.png

HG
02-09-2006, 04:18 PM
The turret is quite small but looks like a slim version of the Panther. Great pics. I wonderd if they also did something like this for the King Tiger with its problems?

Henk

Panzerknacker
02-09-2006, 06:13 PM
Patiente boy, I just getting warmer.

:D

Yes it was and replacement for the King Tiger that was the E-100 wich will replace the Maus also. Still I have to get more info, I will post it later.

Vollkettenaufklarer 38(t) "Katzchen"

In 1943, Auto-Union was ordered to design fully tracked reconnaissance vehicle and armored personal carrier (APC) for the needs of the Eastern Front. The vehicle was to carry 6 to 8 soldiers acting as a personnel carrier and was not to engage enemy vehicles. In early 1944, Auto-Union produced full scale mockup along with two prototypes. The fighting compartment was open at the top. The crew consisted of driver (on the left) and MG42 gunner (on the right). The fighting compartment layout was similar to the Sd.Kfz.251 personnel carrier. The vehicle was powered by 180-200hp Maybach HL 50Z engine. Armor protection ranged from 14.5mm (sides and rear) to 30mm (front). The chassis combined newly designed components (e.g. overlapping steel-rimmed wheels) along with those of PzKpfw IV (e.g. tracks). Both prototypes were tested at Berka in the Summer of 1944 and numerous mechanical problems were encountered. In September of 1944, Auto-Union was ordered to end work on the design and BMM was ordered to continue work by adaptating Jagdpanzer 38(t) Hetzer chassis. One of two Auto-Union prototypes designated as Gepanzerter.

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/9268/vlkt7rp.jpg

Mannschaftransportwagen Katzchen (Kitten) was captured by the US Army in early 1945. Two prototypes based on PzKpfw 38(t) nA (neuer Art) were ordered. BMM's design was similar to that of Auto-Union, but featured some modifications (e.g. two MGs instead of one, engine on the right instead of left, improved armor protection - 50mm front, etc). Two type of engines were considered and tested, 220hp Tatra 103 and 280hp Praga NR. The BMM's design had better performance than the Auto-Union one e.g. maximum road speed of 64km/h and maximum cross-country speed of 40km/h with range of 600km. Production of BMM's design designated as Vollkettenaufklarer 38(t) Katzchen (Kitten) was planned but never took place and two prototypes were probably destroyed late in the war.

Front and rear view of the "Kachzen" APC, despite the relative simplicity of this vehicle, only two protipes seems to be manufactured.
Lenght about 5 meters, weight 7 tons.

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/3065/r446eh.png

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/2452/kat8kk.jpg

Trooper
02-10-2006, 06:05 AM
I doubt this Krupp monster ever got off the drawing board, but it was totally crazy..

http://www.panzer-archiv.de/content/galerie.php?f=219


39 metres long
14.2 metres wide
1000 tonnes
2x 280mm naval guns main armament with 42km range.
3.6m wide tracks

Panzerknacker
02-10-2006, 05:40 PM
Yes it was the most crazy, nut, mad, loco proyect or wathever you want call it.

Land Cruisers P-1000, P-1500 "Ratte"

http://panzerschreck.de/panzer/pzkpfw/bilder/p1000.jpg

On June 23rd of 1942, Dir. Dip. Ing. Grote (along with Dr.Hacker) from the Ministry of Armament, who was responsible for the production of U-Boots suggested the development of a tank with a weight of 1000 tons. Adolf Hitler himself expressed interest in this project and allowed Krupp to go ahead with it. Project was designated as Krupp P 1000 (Ratte - Rat). This "land cruiser" would be 35 meters long, 14 meters wide and 11 meters high. P 1000 would be equipped with 3.6 meters wide tracks per side made of three 1.2 meters tracks, similar to those used in excavators working in coalmines. It was planned to power P 1000 with two MAN V12Z32/44 24 cylinder Diesel marine engines with total power of 17000hp (2 x 8500hp) or with eight Daimler-Benz MB501 20 cylinder Diesel marine engines with total power of 16000hp (8 x 2000hp). According to the calculations it would allow P 1000 to travel at maximum speed of 40km/h. P 1000 would be armed with a variety of weapons such as: two 280mm gun (naval gun used in Scharnhorst and Gneisenau warships), single 128mm gun, eight 20mm Flak 38 anti-aircraft guns and two 15mm Mauser MG 151/15 gun.

A size comparative between the Panzer V and the P-1000.

The potruding barrels in this last one was 8x37mm Flak guns.

http://img117.exs.cx/img117/9524/p1000panther0gh.jpg

HG
02-10-2006, 05:43 PM
How the hell will it move. It is one big target for a bomber but just think it is one small fort and if you hide it good and it would make great weapon.

Henk

Panzerknacker
02-10-2006, 06:03 PM
Well, yes , that was intended to be, a fortress designed to fill the gaps in the Atlantic wall but with a relative mobility. But still crazy. :?

HG
02-10-2006, 06:24 PM
True, I would have used the guns on that thing to fill the gaps in the atlantic wall instead of spending moneyin a machine that will probaly go somthing like 5km/h and will take days to reach the piont it is most needed.

If I were the Germans I would build a big gun to blow up the ships in the channel before they can get into range and thus destroy a lot of the infasion force, but you must have rule the skies to make it work because it will be a big target unless you hid it well wich is not easy.

Henk

Panzer Ace
02-10-2006, 08:54 PM
:? Can you say "Complete waste of resources" :lol: .... and like someone said.... would be a prime target for the Allied fighter bomber crews!

HG
02-10-2006, 09:15 PM
Well, my english is not always so good but I try my best, but yes that is what I meant. Would you spend moneyy in something like that if your country is bombed?

Henk

Panzerknacker
02-11-2006, 09:14 AM
Porsche Typ 205, Panzerkampfwagen VIII Maus


http://panzerschreck.de/panzer/pzkpfw/bilder/pzkpfwmaus.jpg


The Panzerkampfwagen VIII Maus (Sd.Kfz 205) is the heaviest tank with completed working prototypes built during World War II. The basic design known as the VK70001/Porsche Type 2005 was suggested by Ferdinand Porsche to Adolf Hitler in June of 1942, who subsequently approved it. The design up to then had been the culmination of work done by Porsche who had won the contract for the heavy tank that March. Work on the design began in earnest and the first prototype would be ready in 1943 and was initially received the name Mammut (Mammoth). This was reportedly changed to Mäuschen (Mousie) in December of 1942 and finally Maus (Mouse) in February of 1943.




The development of super heavy tank started as early as 1941, when Krupp started the studies of superheavy Soviet tanks. In early 1942, Krupp produced designs of Tiger-Maus (VK7001) and PzKpfw VII Lowe (VK7201), but on March 5/6th of 1942, order for heavier tank was placed. Lowe never reached the prototype stage but paved the way for their successor's development. On March 21/22nd of 1942, Porsche received the contract for new 100-ton Panzer - VK10001 / Porsche Typ 205. On April 14/15th, it specified that new 100-ton tank must carry at least 100 rounds of ammunition. VK10001 was to be developed by Professor Ferdinand Porsche and Dr.Muller (Krupp) at the personal demand of Adolf Hitler made in May of 1942. He demanded 120-ton "indestructible" super-heavy tank armed with high performance L/60 or L/72 gun.

The task of producing hulls, turrets and armament was given to Krupp, while Alkett was responsible for the assembly. First specifications demanded that armament should consist of 150mm L/40 gun and 20mm MG151/20 heavy machine gun, while usage of 128mm L/50 was under consideration. It was stated that prototype should be operational before the Spring of 1943. On June 23rd of 1942, Porsche provided their design for improved VK10001 armed with turret mounted 150mm L/37 and 105mm L/70 guns. Porsche promised that first prototype will be ready in May of 1943. In December of 1942, new armaments such as 150mm gun, 127mm naval gun, 128mm Flak and the longest version of 128mm were considered. Also in the same month, it was restated that first vehicle was to be ready in Summer of 1943, followed by the production 5 per month. First official names VK10001 and Porsche Typ 205 ("Mammoth") were used in April of 1942, followed by Maeuschen (Mousy) in December of 1942 and Maus (Mouse) in February of 1943. In January of 1943, Hitler decided that the Maeuschen was to be fitted with turret mounted with 128mm and 75mm guns, while turret mounted with 150mm KwK 44 L/38 or 170mm KwK 44 gun was to be designed for future use. Specification for ammunition storage space were never met and decreased by further modifications.

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/2595/16nf2.jpg

From the designs emerged 188 tonnes heavy monster. On May 1st of 1943, wooden mockup of the Maus was presented to Adolf Hitler, who agreed on production and ordered series of 150 to be produced. On November 4 of 1943, development of Maus was to be ceased and only one was to be completed for evaluation. In October of 1943, original order placed by Hitler for 150 vehicles was cancelled.

Maus turret.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/4287/torre7gt.jpg

On December 24th of 1943, first turretless prototype was completed by Alkett and was put to the extensive tests. During the tests, the Maus could hardly move due to its enormous weight and power/weight ratio. First prototype V1 (Maus I), was powered by modified Daimler-Benz MB 509 (developed from DB 603 aircraft engine), which could not provide planned speed of 20km/h but only 13km/h in ideal conditions. Also problems arouse with suspension system which had to be modified in order to take the weight of the vehicle. Another problem that emerged from its weight, was that simply there were no bridges able to take the its weight. To overcome this problem Maus had to be provided with a "snorkel" arrangement which allowed it to submerse to the maximum depth of 8 meters. In December of 1943, V1 was fitted with (Belastungsgewicht) simulated turret (representing the weight of the turret) and was tested. Maus I was applied with camouflage paint and marked with red star and hammer and sickle disguised as a captured Russian vehicle.


In March of 1944, second prototype V2 (Maus II) which differed in numerous details from V1 was produced. V2 lacked the powerplant, which was fitted in mid 1944. On April 9th of 1944, Krupp produced the turret, which in June of 1944, was delivered and then mounted on V2 and tested. Krupp produced a turret mounted with 128mm KwK 44 L/55 gun with coaxial 75mm KwK 44 L/36.5 gun and 7.92mm MG34, providing the Maus with an enormous firepower. Maus' main gun could penetrate front, side and rear armor (at 30 degrees from vertical) of Sherman, Cromwell, Churchill, T-34/85 and JS-2 tanks at ranges of 3500+ meters. Turret included mounts for rangefinder (by Zeiss), but was not fully finished and some of the missing components were shipped later on.

Maus I was to be fitted with Krupp's second turret but it was never delivered and it remained fitted with simulated turret. On July 25th of 1944, Krupp reported that two hulls will be available soon and two more later on. On July 27th of 1944, Krupp was ordered to scrap those four hulls. On August 19th of 1944, Krupp informed Porsche that it was order to stop further work on Maus. In September of 1944, second prototype started its tests. It was installed with Daimler-Benz MB 517 diesel engine that made little difference in comparison with previously used engine. Advanced electric steering system was used to steer the vehicle. Its running gear designed by Skoda, consisted of double-wheeled trucks supported by twelve return rollers with 1100mm wide tracks. The crew had to be provided with oxygen supplied by built-on fans/ventilators when all the hatches were closed.


In order to transport the Maus, special 14-axle railroad transport car (Verladewagon) was produced by Graz-Simmering-Pauker Works in Vienna. From mid January to early October of 1944, trials took place at armored vehicle proving grounds in Kummersdorf (near Berlin) and then at Porsche proving grounds at Boblingen. Tests were long, delayed by engine failures and production delays caused by Allied bomber attacks on German factories. During tests, it was determined that in case of any failure each Maus would have to be towed by two other Maus tanks. It is also reported that Germans worked on Flakzwilling 8.8cm auf Maus, which was to be Maus mounted with a modified turret housing two 88mm Flak 43 guns and used as heavy Flakpanzer.



Some sources state that according to Porsche, Hitler's aim for the Maus was to plug holes in the Atlantic coastal defenses on the Western Front, where it's limited range and mobility wouldn't have been too much of a hindrance. The popular version states that V2 prototype was blown up by the personnel at proving grounds in Kummersdorf, while some sources state that actually V2 saw combat while defending the facility at Kummersdorf. When war ended, almost finished V1 turret and third hull were found at Krupp facilities in Essen.

Overall, Maus was an interesting design but it would be of limited combat value because of its poor mobility and heavy weight making it more of a mobile fortification rather than a super tank. One fully assembled example (V2 turret mounted on V1 hull) was tested at Kubinka in 1951/52 and can be seen today in the Museum of Armored Forces in Kubinka (near Moscow) in Russia

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/4254/maus3vf.jpg

Length: 10.09 m
Width: 3.67 m
Height: 3.63 m
Weight: 188 ton
Speed: 13 km/h on road
Range: 160 on roads, 62 off road.
Primary armament: 128 mm KwK44 L/5
Secondary armament: co-axial 75mm KwK 44 L/36.5
7.92mm MG34
Armor (V2) Front lower hull (Glacis plate approximately 200 mm (8 in), sloped at 35 degrees to the vertical.

Side hull: 180mm (7 in)
Rear hull: 160mm (6.3 in)
Turret front: 240mm (9.5 in)
Turret sides: 200mm (8 in)
Turret roof: 60mm (2.3 in)


Ground Pressure 140 kPa (20 psi)
Production 1 complete (V2)

1 complete but with dummy turret (V1)
9 total at various levels of completion. (at Essen and Kummersdorf)

Power plant: 1080 hp MB509 gasoline (V1)
1200 hp MB517 Diesel (V2)
Crew: 6

Panzerknacker
02-11-2006, 09:28 AM
10.5cm K18 auf Panzer Selbstfahrlafette IVa
"****ermax"

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/2420/18zx.jpg

In September of 1939, German High Command ordered Krupp to design a heavy panzerjager armed with 105 or 128mm gun that would be able to destroy enemy tanks and heavily fortified positions (such as pillboxes). In early/mid 1941, Krupp-Gruson produced two prototypes of such a vehicle and on March 31st of 1941, first was presented to Adolf Hitler. The Fuhrer ordered further development of heavy panzerjagers armed with either 105mm or 128mm guns. He also ordered that the production of Selbstfahrlafette 10.5cm must start in the Spring of 1942, but it was later on cancelled in favour of other vehicles.

Selbstfahrlafette 10.5cm was armed with Krupp's 105mm K 18 L/52 gun with limited traverse of 8 degrees (left and right) and based on modified Panzer IV Ausf A's chassis. The gun itself was developed by Krupp and Rheinmetall from 105mm sK 18 L/52 heavy field gun and was mounted with a muzzle break. The gun was capable of penetrating 111mm of 30 degrees sloped armor plate at 2000 meters. It was mounted in lightly armored (armor protection ranged from 10mm to 50mm), open at rear superstructure and for local defense machine gun (7.92mm MG34) was carried inside as well. Vehicle was powered by Maybach HL 120 TRM engine with total power of 300 horsepower (same as Panzer IV) allowing it to travel at the speed of 40km/h.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v15/jaszczolt/lafette/****ermax.jpg

Originally, two prototypes were assigned to Panzerjager Abteilung 521 in preparations for upcoming attack on Gibraltar. At the beginning of Operation Barbarossa, both were assigned to 3rd Panzer Division and were troop tested. One of them was lost when its ammunition exploded (as reported it was then captured the Soviets) and the second one was brought back to the factory in October of 1941. The further fate of the surviving vehicle is unknown. Both prototypes proved to be very effective against Soviet KV-I, KV-II and T-34 tanks. Serial production did not take place, while even limited numbers would prove to be very useful to the front line troops faced with superior Soviet armor in 1941/42.


http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7968/fording6ju.jpg

Weight: 25000kg

Crew: 5 men

Engine: Maybach HL 120 TRM / 12-cylinder / 300hp

Speed: 40km/h

Range: Road: 200km

Lenght: 7.52m

Width: 2.84m

Height: 3.25m

Armament: 105mm K 18 L/52 & 7.92mm MG34
(1 x MG34 - carried inside)

Ammo: 105mm - 20-25 rounds

7.92mm - 600 rounds

Armor (mm/angle): Front Hull: 50/12
Front Superstructure: 50/10
Front Turret: 30/14
Gun Mantlet: 50/10
Side Hull: 20/0
Side Superstructure: 20/0
Side Turret: 20/14
Rear Hull: 20/10
Rear Superstructure: 20/10
Rear Turret: 20/20
Hull Top / Bottom: 10/90
Superstructure Top / Bottom: 12/90
Turret Top: open

Trooper
02-11-2006, 03:40 PM
If I were the Germans I would build a big gun to blow up the ships in the channel before they can get into range
Henk

I do believe that there were guns in the Atlantic wall that could reach the UK mainland. There were guns at Dover Castle which could hit France.

HG
02-11-2006, 06:35 PM
I did not know that. Thank you Panzerknacker that was realy great info. I saw pictures of the Maus where there is dents in the frontal armour where itwas shot at by guns. That is truly the biggest monster I have ever seen when it comes to tanks.

Henk

Nickdfresh
02-11-2006, 10:16 PM
:? Can you say "Complete waste of resources" :lol: .... and like someone said.... would be a prime target for the Allied fighter bomber crews!

Or attacks by sapper infantry...

Panzerknacker
02-13-2006, 10:42 AM
12.8cm Selbstfahrlafette L/61
(Panzerselbstfahrlafette V)
"Sturer Emil / Stubborn Emil


http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/5350/emil8wg.jpg

Design of Selbstfahrlafette 12.8cm was based on Henschel's prototype of Panzer IV' successor - VK3001(H). In March of 1941, two VK3001(H) were ready to be converted into heavy anti-tank gun carriers - Panzerjagers. Rheinmetall-Borsig provided the 128mm PaK 40 L/61 gun for the main armament, which was developed in 1939, from 128mm Flak gun. Both chassis had to be modified in order to mount heavy 128mm gun. Major modifications consisted of the enlargement of the chassis (addition of one road-wheel, extension of the hull) and addition of the heavily armored open-top compartment mounted over the engine compartment.

http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/2605/3001121tm.jpg

Fighting compartment was mounted in the rear of the vehicle and housed powerful 128mm anti-tank gun with limited traverse of 7 degrees to the left and to the right. Space inside the fighting compartment operated by the crew of five, allowed storage for only 15 to 18 rounds. One 7.92mm MG34 was mounted in the hull for local defence.

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/1095/emil2py.jpg

From August of 1941 to March of 1942, Rheinmetall-Borsig and Henschel produced two prototypes, which were troop tested in Russia in mid 1942. Both prototypes performed successfully but the development of this project was cancelled in favour of Tiger I. One of Selbstfahrlafette 12.8cm (pictured above) saw service with 521st schwere Panzerjaeger Abteilung and second one with 2nd Panzer Division as late as July of 1942. One of two prototypes (from 2nd Panzer Division) was destroyed in combat, while other one (from 521st sPzJagAbt with 22 kills rings painted on the gun barrel) was captured intact in January of 1943 in Stalingrad area. It was shown at the captured equipment exhibitions in Moscow's Gorky Park in 1943 and 1944.It can be seen today in the Museum of Armored Forces in Kubinka.

The "normal" panzergranate 39 in this caliber (128mm) could penetrate more than 150mm of rolled homogeneus armor at 1000 meters distance.

HG
02-15-2006, 04:23 PM
Funny looking thing hey. It is quite low shooting if you have a problem wiht bombers.

Henk

Panzerknacker
02-15-2006, 05:24 PM
Well, is because the Mauser round is short compared with the tipical 2cm Flak Reinmethall round, the advantage of the mauser canons is that they had more rate of fire and weight much less

Panzerknacker
02-16-2006, 08:40 AM
Landwasserschlepper

http://img332.imageshack.us/img332/4746/lws6sw.jpg

Development of Landwasserschlepper (Land-Water-Tractor) started in 1936, but first 7 vehicles were completed in July of 1940. Additional 14 were produced by March of 1941. It was designed by Rheinmetall-Borsig as an amphibious vehicle for the use by engineers but it lacked storage and loading/unloading access. To overcome this problem, special 10 and 20 ton amphibious trailers were made. It carried 3 to 5 men crew and 20 passangers. Another problem was that it was unarmored and could operate effectively in the combat area. LWS saw service in Russia and North Africa.

http://img332.imageshack.us/img332/7554/lws10hc.jpg

Despite being unarmored the LWS probe to be a extremely useful vehicle in the always changing terrain conditions of the Russian lanscape.

Weight: 17000kg
Crew: 5 men
Engine: Maybach HL 120TRM / 12-cylinder / 300hp
Speed: Road: 35km/h
Water: 12km/h
Range: Road: 150km
Lenght: 7.68m
Width: 2.34m
Height: 2.65m

HG
02-17-2006, 06:29 PM
Interesting, but I can understand why they could not put armour on it because it would sink.

They could have fitted a gun for a bit of support.

Henk

Panzerknacker
02-17-2006, 09:42 PM
Aditional pics of the Land-water-tractor.

http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/3503/lws25of.jpg


http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/8003/lwsfrente8wl.jpg


http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/1539/lws34ot.jpg


http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/6591/landwasserschlepper16ep.jpg

Panzerknacker
02-19-2006, 07:35 PM
Sd.Kfz.165/1
10.5cm leFH 18/1(Sf) auf Geschützwagen IVb

( edited by author, expanded and corrected in later post)

HG
02-20-2006, 01:50 PM
Great info Panzerknacker and I wonder why they made the turret to turn only 70 degrees? I does look great and it would have looked even greater with a Panther or King Tiger chassis.

What do you think?

Henk

Panzerknacker
02-20-2006, 06:13 PM
I like more using the Panther and Tiger chassis to the full 360Ş turn turret Medium.Heavy tanks.

The Self propelled Howitzer can be put almost in any tracked vehicle.

Panzerknacker
03-17-2006, 06:04 PM
Alkett-Raümgerät

This strange AFV was found by the Soviet troops at Kummersdorf proving grounds in 1945 and was then stored at the Soviet military base in Dresden. In 1947, it was delivered to Kubinka proving grounds for tests together with other German AFVs. The tests could not be completed because the minesweeping mechanisms of the mineroller were badly damaged during the transportation and only movement and tactical tests were made. The design was the joint project by Alkett, Krupp and Mercedes-Benz and construction was finished in early 1942.


Front side.

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/9085/alkrm16gc.jpg

The appearance of this AFV was very strange and unusual. The vehicle's body was mounted on the heavy gun frame with the cabin containing the fighting compartment, engine and the turret from PzKpfw I armed by the two MG-34 machine guns for close defense. The body armor was 20 to 40mm thick. The bottom had to withstand the explosive power of mines and was 80mm thick. There were inside armor plates in this AFV. Turning the mineroller was done by the small steering wheel placed in the rear part of the body.


Rear side.

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/1808/alkrm25ln.jpg

Driving was done by turning of the steering wheel and via the gear selector The wheels were mounted with 75mm wide brake shoes that were controlled directly from the fighting compartment. The moving parts of this mineroller were caterpillar trucks with shoe pads fixed onto the driving wheels. They were similar to those used on wheels of the German heavy field guns in the WWI. The explosives theoretically could not damage those pads. The tests showed that the weight of this AFV, its low speed and height made an easy target for enemy artillery. This AFV was constructed under the influence of high panzer losses on the Soviet minefields. It was to go before the tanks in the offensive operations. It appears that the designers understood that this AFV was useless in comparison with the ordinary tanks mounted with mineplows and was abandoned at the proving grounds. Today Alkett-Raümgerät can be seen in the Museum of Armored Forces in Kubinka in Russia.

HG
03-17-2006, 06:51 PM
Great info and pics. I never knew the Germans build somthing so strange and ugly. Dam, it looks like all German heavy tanks or such stuff were slow.

Do you Panzerknacker think it could have been a success in combat, I do not think so like you said the Russians found that it were to slow and it had to great height to be able to be successful in combat because artillary could take it out.

Henk

Firefly
03-18-2006, 05:36 AM
The turret designed for the Leopard was used in the Puma, which incidentally was a proper Recce vehicle!

Panzerknacker
03-18-2006, 08:55 AM
Great info and pics. I never knew the Germans build somthing so strange and ugly. Dam, it looks like all German heavy tanks or such stuff were slow.

Do you Panzerknacker think it could have been a success in combat, I do not think so like you said the Russians found that it were to slow and it had to great height to be able to be successful in combat because artillary could take it out.

Henk

Well, everything could be hit by the artillery, the thing was that the Alkett is quiet a large target, it was efective in mineclearing but a smaller vehicle with deminig rollers or Mayal could as effective and less complicated.

The germas also used a large amout of remote controlled Explosive charge transports , wich were controlled by radio o a wire from a tank, in the Kursk bulge those were used intensively. The explosion of the expendable vehicle triggered the mines in a large sector.

Leichte Ladungsträger Goliath Sd.Kfz.302

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/6214/gol18ht.jpg

HG
03-18-2006, 09:07 AM
Oh yes I have seen those little things in a German WW2 film where they tested it and that little thing has on massive exlosion in it. I would rather chose the Leichte Ladungsträger Goliath Sd.Kfz.302 to clear mines than the Alkett-Raümgerät.

Henk

HG
03-23-2006, 04:29 PM
Great info panzer. I never knew they made those.

Henk

Panzerknacker
03-23-2006, 06:43 PM
Panzer IV Ausf. J with hidraulic drive.

http://panzerschreck.de/panzer/pzkpfw/bilder/pzkpfw4hydrau.jpg

In late 1943, Zahnradfabrik Augsburg equipped normal (turretless)Panzerkampfwagen IV Ausf G/H with newly developed hydraulic steering system. Thoma (non-liquid) oil drive transmission was installed and drive sprocket was replaced with the new one. The power train consisted of twin oil pumps driven by Maybach HL 120 TRM engine. In order to accommodate all the changes, entire engine deck and rear was modified.
In mid 1944, this prototype was fitted with modified hydraulically operated turret instead the original electric powered. Tests were carried on but were never concluded and for testing purposes the only prototype was send to Russia and served with the Waffen SS unit wich used it in combat.

Rear side showing the "duck tail" wich acomodate the hidraulic equipment.

http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/5087/atras4qn.jpg

The prototipe survive long enough and was send back to the western front in 1945. At the end of the war, this vehicle was captured by the US Army and was sent to United States for further examination. Tests were never concluded and this vehicle is still visible at Aberdeen U.S Army Proving Grounds in Maryland.

http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/4967/gtg5hp.jpg

Although the hidraulic system was cumbersome it provide a softer driving experience and performed well, however the Pz IV with Hidro drive was merely a technology demonstrator and it was not intended to mass production because the complications of his manufacturing.

This tank seems to have only the 8mm thick turret skirts but no the hull 5mm ones.

Panzerknacker
03-29-2006, 07:27 PM
Minenraumpanzer III / Minenraumgerat mit PzKpfw Antrieb.

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/2391/flak7jv.jpg


One of the most interesting prototypes based Panzer III's chassis was Minenraumpanzer III - mine clearing/mine destroyer tank. This was another extremely weird vehicle developed by Krupp. The idea was simply to run all over the mines with a reinforced kit of tracks, the high clearance of the hull minimizate the blast to the crew compartement.
It proved to be unsuccessful and never entered production.

Panzerknacker
04-05-2006, 09:45 PM
Flakpanzer IV (3cm) Kugelblitz
(Ball Lightning

http://www.2iemeguerre.com/blindes/images/kugelblitzo.jpg

In April of 1944, plans were laid for the design that would be an effective defense against Allied fighter bombers, which proved to be very effective against German ground targets. It was proposed to build such vehicle based on Panzer IV Ausf H's proven chassis and armed with twin 30mm MK (MK - Maschinenkanon) 303 "Doppelflak" / "Brunn" guns (developed by Rheinmetall for Type XXI U-Boot to be installed on coning towers) mounted in fully closed sphere-like turret.Development of this project was given to both Rheinmetall and Daimler-Benz and production was planned to start in September 1944.


First improvised prototype by Daimler-Benz was mounted with modified U-Boot turret armed with two 30mm MK303 guns. It was tested but it didn't perform as expected and further development was to be continued. The additonal problem was that entire production of 30mm MK303 guns and turrets was reserved for the Kriegsmarine. Designers then decided to utilize older 30mm MK103/38 guns, which were used as armament for Henschel Hs 129 and Dornier Do 335 Pfeil (Arrow) airplanes. The weapon was known to the Luftwaffe as the Jaboschreck (Fighter-bomber terror). In November of 1944, first real prototype was produced at Marienfelde and was tested and eventually production was to start in March of 1945 with 30 being produced monthly. Only five chassis were obtained due to shortages by Daimler-Benz with sub-contractor Stahlindustrie. Daimler-Benz produced three and Stahlindustrie two were produced in February/March of 1945. Due to the war situation and cancellation of Panzer IV's production, only 2 to 5 prototypes were delivered in February/March of 1945 and assigned to Panzerflak Ersatz und Ausbildungs Abteilung (Anti-Aircraft Tank Training and Replacement Battalion) at Ohrdruf, but it is not knownif they saw any combat. Although, some sources state that all took part in the Battle for Berlin in April of 1945, where they were all lost.Kugelblitz was intended for use exclusively on the Western Front, where Allied Air Force was the biggest threat to the German Army.

Kugelblitz was operated by the crew of 5, protected by the armor thickness varying from 10mm to 80mm. The turret housed 3 men crew consisting of two gun operator (each sitting alongside the gun) and commander (sitting in the middle). The 3500kg turret had one entry/exit hatch (commander was last to enter and first to exit) and two smaller hatches for observation. It had manual traverse by hand of 14 degrees per second. Armored protection of the turret was only 20mm. The size and weight of the turret demanded that hulls were fitted with larger 1900mm rings from Tiger I.

With its low silhouette, high mobility (with maximum speed of 38km/h), great rate of fire (400 to 650 rounds per minute) and gun range (up to 5700 meters), Flakpanzer IV Kugelblitz would prove deadly to any enemy plane. Both guns were coupled together, but could be fired independently. The ammunition, known as Minengeschoss was belt-fed and more powerful than standard 30mm round, only three to four rounds were needed to shotdown any enemy plane. Its main drawback was its small ammunition storage allowing it to continue firing for only 90 seconds, while afterwards more ammunition was to be supplied by other vehicles.

Panzer Ace
04-06-2006, 11:54 AM
Wow Panzerknacker.... thanks for all the great info! You the Man! 8)

Keep it coming if you dont mind!

HG
04-06-2006, 05:39 PM
You are the man and sure as hel know how to get the right stuff.

Henk

Panzerknacker
04-06-2006, 06:13 PM
Thanks guys, this particular issue in neverending, day after day more information and blueprints of the german panzer projetcs come to light.


Minenraumer III.

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/4149/30dv.jpg

HG
04-06-2006, 06:22 PM
Lucky sun of a gun. What happend to it?

Henk

Panzerknacker
04-06-2006, 08:55 PM
Not much....there was a version armed with two 30mm MK and two 20mm MK cannons planned. 20mm cannons were to be used to "get on target", while 30mm cannons were to fired on it.

Kugelblitz mocke-up.

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/9273/kugel12jt.jpg

The height of this vehicle was only 2,3m.

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/5141/kugel27gs.jpg

In addition, tests were carried to equip future models with radar and infra-red equipment. In November of 1944, it was accepted to utilize Hetzer's chassis as a base for Flakpanzer 38(t) Hetzer mounted with Kugelblitz's turret, but it was never materialized due to the war situation. It was also proposed to mounted Kugelblitz's turret on Panther's chassis, but it was never done.

Caracteristics of the Reinhmetall-Borsig Maschinen Kanone MK-103:

http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/5269/mk10315ww.jpg

Caliber: 30mm (30x184B)

Lenght: 2318mm

Weight: 146 kg.

Operation: gas assisted short recoil.

RoF: 360-420 rpm according ammo weight.

30 mm ammo caracteristics.

Bullet weight: between 390-460 grams.

Muzzle speed of the ammo:

Normal HE: 815 m/s

Minengesschoss HE: 900 m/s.

AP steel core ( panzergranate 39) 710 m/s.

AP tugsten core (Panzergranate 40) 960 m/s.


Normal He ammo:

http://img415.imageshack.us/img415/4541/page020ii.jpg

Steel core incendiary ammo.

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/452/page068ee.jpg


Panzergranate 40, the Kugelblitz might use this type of ammo for self defense against other tanks. The bullet can penetrate 65 mm homogeneus armor at 300 meters.

http://img437.imageshack.us/img437/483/page069mp.jpg

Especifications for Flakpanzer IV (3cm) Kugelblitz

Weight: 25000kg
Crew: 5 men
Engine: Maybach HL 120 TRM 112 / 12-cylinder / 300hp
Speed: 38km/h
Range: 200km
Lenght: 5.92m
Width: 2.95m
Height: 2.30m
Armament: 2 x 30mm MK103/38 & 7.92mm MG34
Ammo: 30mm - 1200 rounds
7.92mm - 900 rounds

Armor (mm/angle):

Front Turret: 30/round + 20/60
Front Superstructure: 80/10
Front Hull: 80/12
Side Turret: 20/round + 20/60
Side Superstructure: 30/0
Side Hull: 30/0
Rear Turret: 30/0
Rear Superstructure: 20/11
Rear Hull: 20/9
Turret Top / Bottom: 20/90
Superstructure Top / Bottom: 13/85-90
Hull Top / Bottom: 13/90

Panzer Ace
04-07-2006, 02:48 PM
To me...... it seems the German army was in 44... were starting to realize that in order to win... or prolong the war... whichever came first.... would have to seriously think of the way they were gonna fight it. I mean.... the allies... for the most part... had air supremecy.. and.... at any point can there not be Luftwaffe flak guns avaliable to shoot down allied planes attacking German convoys or counterattacks or whatever. So now they had to build... mobile anti-aircraft tanks... and by the description Panzerknacker :) gave on the FlakPanzer 1V.. proved effective. Now... instead of just building tanks... for example.. every 5 "tanks" built... 1 would have to be some sort of 'Flakpanzer".

Same goes with building tanks.... to the "tank destroyers" or the "mobile assault guns". With Germany..... from late 43' onward shifting to defence... they should of focused tank production on the T. Destroyers and the Assault guns. Cheaper to build... easier to build... lower profile... just as deadly.. why not switch to producing only those until or if the tide was to turn? Of course there are the disadvantages of not having the rotating turret... but if the tank is used primarly for defence... and is not going to be moving as opposed to attacking.. then it makes sence.

Not near enough was being done to adapt to the kind of war Germany was fighting.....

I"m just rambling here.... but does anyone understand what I"m getting at. More input if anyone has anything to add! 8)

Panzerknacker
04-07-2006, 07:41 PM
Yes off course, the increased numbers of "Flakpanzers" desings were in the search for the self protection of the armoured divisions deployed in the field, probably because the cuantity of the Luftwaffe aircraft available for protect those was few.


Same goes with building tanks.... to the "tank destroyers" or the "mobile assault guns". With Germany..... from late 43' onward shifting to defence... they should of focused tank production on the T. Destroyers and the Assault guns. Cheaper to build... easier to build... lower profile... just as deadly.. why not switch to producing only those until or if the tide was to turn? Of course there are the disadvantages of not having the rotating turret... but if the tank is used primarly for defence... and is not going to be moving as opposed to attacking.. then it makes sence

It make sence but there was still some tactical situation for example a local limited counterattack...operations for wich the panzerjagers were not the best answers but the conventional tanks. The Stugs with 75mm and 105mm are instead originally "offensive" weapons used succesfully in the close support role, then in 1942 they switched his task more often to the defensive antitank role.


In some ways the Panther tank was a high mobile tank killer, with a powerful gun and all the heavy armor in the front wich made it excellent for shooting in ambush positions..... but weakly protected from side attacks.

HG
04-08-2006, 10:42 AM
Yes, the Germans knew they had to gain air supremace and also wanted to protect their armour from air attacks. The Panther were great but like Panzerknacker said, they did not have side armour.

Great info guys.

Henk

Panzerknacker
04-09-2006, 03:00 PM
Yes, we can say that the Tiger 1 designed in 1941 was an offensive breaktrough weapon, the Panther designed in 1942-43 was an all around use but with accent in the defensive bussines. Off course many people will desagree but is only opinion.


Tiger 1 Porsche.and his variants. part 1.

On May 26th of 1941, during the meeting concerning the development of new weaponry, Adolf Hitler ordered both Dr.Porsche and Henschel to supply their designs for a heavy tank, which was to be ready in the summer of 1942.

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/4738/posche38uo.jpg


new 45-ton panzer was to be armed with a 88mm KwK L/56 mounted in a turret designed by Krupp. Development of Porsche's Tiger was progressing much faster than that of Henschel since Porsche worked on an independent project for heavy tank since autumn of 1940. Henschel was not that advanced and utilized as many already available components from its previous projects to complete its VK 4501 design.



In order to speed up the development of VK4501(P), components of VK 3001(P) were modified and used. The suspension was modified version of the suspension used in the VK 3001(P) prototype. It was made up of six road-wheels and lacked return rollers. Tracks had 109 links per side and were 640mm wide with track surface contact of 4175mm (4.175m). Tiger(P) was powered by two (air-cooled) Porsche Typ 101/1 engines mounted in the rear part of the hull.


Gasoline engines drove electrical generators, which drove two electric motors, which provided power to the tracks.Gasoline engines were produced with defects and were repaired but remained unreliable, while electric system used copper, which was a critical war material.

Drive sprocket was in the rear instead of the standard location at the front. Electric transmission system was used similar to that ofVK 3001(P).Overall gasoline-electric power/drive system with which many problems were encountered (such as engine fire) was utilized. Its power/weight distribution limited its cross-country performance and during trials, VK4501(P) prototype was often bogged down (especially in the soft ground) and had to be towed away by recovery vehicles.....

To be continued....

HG
04-10-2006, 05:33 PM
Now I cannot wait for the Second part. Looks cool this design for the Tiger.

Henk

Panzerknacker
04-11-2006, 06:51 PM
Part II.

The contest.

Both, Henschel and Porsche's prototypes arrived to a station near Rastenburg on April 19th of 1942 and then traveled 11km to Rastenburg, while constantly breaking down.On April 20th of 1942 at 11:00am, both Porsche and Henschel prototypes were presented to Adolf Hitler (on his birthday) in Wolfschanze (Rastenburg), East Prussia. Tests were scheduled for July and preliminary tests proved that the Tiger(P)'s design was far from being perfect and modifications were made, but none of the technical problems were fully solved from the lack time. Both VK4501(P) and VK4501(H) were armed with powerful 88mm KwK 36 L/56 gun, developed from 88mm Flak 36 L/56 gun.

Tiger P in Rastenburg.

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/4682/tigre8rr.jpg


Originally, Krupp designed and produced the turret for Porsche's VK4501, but then it was modified and used by Henschel's VK4501. The first eight turrets produced had lower sides and a flat roof with raised centre section to allow the gun to be depressed through larger arc.

Tiger(P) had its turret mounted forward, what also made the operating in enclosed areas dangerous. In July of 1942, both prototypes were put to the extensive tests at the tank school in Berka, Germany. During the tests, Porsche's VK 4501(P) was a failure, while Henschel's VK 4501(H) was a great success. Main failure of Porsche's design laid in its advanced power and drive system, which was prone to breakdowns and required continuous maintenance. Also Tiger(P) was longer than its competitor, what made it less maneuverable.

Several Pics of the test in the Posche Tiger. The turret is pointing rearwards.

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/5430/tigre14no.jpg

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/4906/tigre22qq.jpg


The tracks in the Tiger P were narrower than the Henschel Tiger "combat tracks".

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/913/tigre31he.jpg


Esqueme of the gasoline electrical transmition.

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2419/transmision8sm.jpg


In July of 1942, Henschel Tiger - VK 4501(H) was approved and went into production. Only five Tiger(P) were fully completed in July of 1942 by Nibelungenwerke with armored parts supplied by Krupp, before the production was stopped in August of 1942 (chassis number 150001-150010).


But beside the Porsches s defeat, production of 90 pre-production VK4501(P) chassis started. Production of pre-production chassis continued, and in early September of 1942, it was decided to equip two sPzAbts (including sPzAbt 501) destined for North Africa with Tiger(P)s. This decision was made simply because of the stage of development and the fact that Tiger(P)'s engines were air-cooled. Once again unresolved problem of technical unreliability led to the cancellation of the production. Those chsssis were used for the Ferdinand- Elefant jagdpanzer.


To be continued.... ( damn)

HG
04-11-2006, 10:25 PM
Panzerknacker the 3 last pics does not work mate. I wonder why they did not use stronger engines or develop greater engines.

Henk

Panzerknacker
04-12-2006, 09:02 PM
Check it now.


--------------------

Only one completed Tiger(P) with chassis number 150013 saw combat service as a command tank - Panzerbefehlswagen VI(P) with schwere Heeres Panzerjager Abteilung 653. It was used by its commander, Hauptmann Grillenberg (turret number 003), on the Eastern Front in early/mid of 1944.

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/6852/tigp0031bi.jpg

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/779/tigre53se.jpg



Caracteristics.

Weight: 58 500kg
Crew: 5 men
Engine: 2 x Porsche Typ 101/1 / V10 / 320hp
Fuel Capacity: 520 litres
Speed: Road: 20-35km/h
Cross-Country: 8-10km/h
Range: Road: 80-110km
Cross-Country: 48-50km
Lenght: 9.34m (with the gun)
6.70m (w/o the gun)
Width: 3.38m (with the aprons)
3.14m (w/o the aprons)
Height: 2.80m

Armament: 88mm KwK 36 L/56 & 2 x 7.92mm MG34
Ammo: 88mm - 64-80 rounds
7.92mm - 4350 rounds

Armor (mm/angle):

Front Turret: 100/8
Front Superstructure: 100/12
Front Hull: 100/35
Side Turret: 80/0
Side Superstructure: 80/0
Side Hull: 60/0
Rear Turret: 80/0
Rear Hull: 80/0
Top / Bottom Turret: 25/81 / 25/90
Top / Bottom Superstructure: 20/90
Top / Bottom Hull: 20/90
Gun Mantlet: 100-110/0


http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/6228/tigre66qh.jpg

Panzer Ace
04-13-2006, 02:21 PM
It really looks like the T-34...

....Anyone know why they did not incorportate the sloped armour on the Tiger from the beginning? Had they done that there would of been no need for a King Tiger..

HG
04-14-2006, 08:47 PM
Nope Panzerknacker, something is wrong somewhere.

Yes, it does look like a T-34.

Henk

Panzerknacker
04-14-2006, 11:19 PM
Well , probably you had some trouble seeing images uploaded to imageshack, I will send you by Email.




....Anyone know why they did not incorportate the sloped armour on the Tiger from the beginning? Had they done that there would of been no need for a King Tiger

Because despite being manufactured in 1942, is a pre- operation Barbarossa design, early 1941.

HG
04-15-2006, 08:29 AM
Thanks Panzerknacker will look out for it. The Tiger that finely went into production looked way different than the prototypes they first build. They also look smaller.

Were the Tiger(P) destroyed or did it survive the war?

Henk

Panzerknacker
04-16-2006, 10:09 AM
The Tiger (P) was destroyed in combat, I have no much info about it but I keep searching.


Check your Email I send you the pics already.

http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/8055/porsche21ns.jpg

HG
04-16-2006, 10:43 AM
Thanks mate the pics is great.

I would never have send it into combat. That was stupid.

The fact that they realy wanted to put the turret so far in front of the body of the tnk is not ver smart, then you do not have a lot of space inside to be able to fight propperly.

Henk

Panzerknacker
04-16-2006, 02:18 PM
The fact that they realy wanted to put the turret so far in front of the body of the tnk is not ver smart, then you do not have a lot of space inside to be able to fight propperly.


Well, that was made because the large petrol engines-generator-electric engines layout left few space in the mid section of the hull.

Unfortunately the aft turret and the long gun caused the tendency to dig the barrel muzzle every time that the Tiger Porsche go trough a ditch, that is why Tiger P is seen always with his turret pointing reardwards when it negociate bad terrain.

HG
04-16-2006, 03:26 PM
Oh yes, sorry for the spelling misstakes :oops: . The engine is a sun of a gun and it makes or breaks your tank and it is the part of your tank that can be shot at and when taken out can bee a pain in the bud.

I have seen a picture of a King Tiger that got stuck in mud and the dug into the ground.

The thing that I can not understand is why the Germans did not make greater engines for their tanks, no material or was it that there were nothing better?

Henk

Panzerknacker
04-17-2006, 11:03 AM
You mean more powerful engines ? ....Well, the german engines were good, they have 265hp and 300 hp for the 20-27 tons tanks (Panzer III and Panzer IV, Hummel etc)

The larger 700 hp Maybach V-12 was plenty of power for the panther (43-45 tons) and the Tiger I (56tons) , there was no enough for the Tiger II (68,5 tons) in my opinion because was too much overloaded.

Even so the Tiger II had a more favorable Weight-power ratio than the much more lighter Churchill for example.


Probably the big change that the germans tank would need was a stronger transmition speacilly in the larger than 40 tons tank.

HG
04-17-2006, 01:24 PM
Yes, I have also heard that the King Tiger needed greater transmition. Well, why did they not get more powerfull engines?

Henk

HG
04-18-2006, 06:41 PM
That is actualy a waste of time and money, Hitler should have focussed on the tactics and the winter in Russia instead of such stuff.

Yes, I can see why they did not get stronger engines. :lol:

Henk

Ostwind01
04-19-2006, 07:07 AM
My favourite panzer is the P-1000. :lol:

www.panzerschreck.de/ panzer/pzkpfw/p1000.html

Panzerknacker
04-19-2006, 06:41 PM
The Ratte wanst a tank it was....simply crazy :shock:

HG
04-20-2006, 04:36 PM
Yep, that Ratte was the crazyest Idea I have ever heard of.

Henk

Firefly
04-20-2006, 05:09 PM
That is actualy a waste of time and money, Hitler should have focussed on the tactics and the winter in Russia instead of such stuff.

Yes, I can see why they did not get stronger engines. :lol:

Henk

Maybe you have finally come round to realising just what I was getting at here?


Now I come onto some things such as Von Braun, yes he may have forged the way to the Moon, but was he important to WW2? I would argue that he was a minor player in WW2 and the V2 did nothing to advance Germany’s war effort. You may indeed be able to pick up the phone and talk to a Me-262 pilot, but did this aircraft significantly affect the outcome of WW2? Again, I think not, I believe it was too little too late. If you have no fuel to fly it, have to scrape together the pilots to fly it and are totally overwhelmed by Allied air supremacy above your own country, then it’s not an effective weapon.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1442&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45

My whole point is that all these wonder projects and fantasy vehicles detracted from the main aim of fighting a war that was actually happening at the time and that the resources put into these vehicles or aircraft were just wasted in a regime that needed real practical fighting machines at the time.

HG
04-20-2006, 06:28 PM
Yes, it was a waste, but you can not say that some of it were quite advanced and were done by pretty smart people, but still a waste when you are in a possition that Hitler were in.

Well lets not open old wounds. :lol:

Henk

Ostwind01
04-21-2006, 12:00 PM
Hitler was crazy.The P-1500 (was) slow,fat :D . Aircrafts could destroy it easily.

Firefly
04-21-2006, 01:22 PM
Yes, it was a waste, but you can not say that some of it were quite advanced and were done by pretty smart people, but still a waste when you are in a possition that Hitler were in.

Well lets not open old wounds. :lol:

Henk

Then finally I agree with you.

Panzerknacker
04-21-2006, 07:15 PM
Hitler was crazy.The P-1500 (was) slow,fat :D . Aircrafts could destroy it easily.

Actually the P-1500 was not an Hitler idea, it was designed by a guy named (Dr) Grotte.
Albert Speer ( german weapons production ministry) cancelled wisely any further development in that.

Panzerknacker
04-21-2006, 08:28 PM
Panzerkampfwagen V Panther II


In late 1942, German designers started the development of more powerful and slightly larger version of Panther mounted on a newly designed chassis. In January of 1943, Adolf Hitler agreed on the development of Panther with increased armor protection especially for the needs of the Eastern Front. This project was designated Panther (2) II and its design was planned along with the development of Tiger II. In February of 1943, it was decided that Panther II, in its design would resemble Tiger II and would have many common components such as: tracks, transmission, suspension and roadwheels. Both designs had common components in an attempt to standartize the production. Overall dimensions were very similar to those of Panther Ausf G. Hull's design was very similar to that of the late model Panther Ausf G but with many modernizations such as the arrangement of observation equipment and new engine deck. Its armor protection was significantly increased if compared to any other Panther variant produced. Side armor protection was 60mm thick while frontal armor protection was 100mm thick.


Panther II hull, with Panther Ausf.G turret.

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/6894/53jd.jpg

It was planned to arm Panther II with the lattest 75mm KwK 42 L/100 or even 88mm KwK 43 L/71 (without muzzle break) gun mounted in newly designed narrow turret - Schmalturm (designed by Rheinmetall in 1944 and to be produced by Daimler-Benz).

Turret's armor protection was significantly increased if compared to any other Panther turret. Front was 120-125mm, gun mantlet was 150mm, while sides and rear were 60mm and top was 30mm thick. Schmalturm had special mountings for infrared device and telescopic range finder. All of those modifications increased Panther II's weight to 47 tons. Panther II was to be powered by new Maybach HL234 engine with total power of 900hp operated by 8-speed hydraulic transmission. Instead Maybach HL 230 P 30 engine was mounted and Maybach HL234was later on due to be completed in August of 1945, for future Panther series. It was believed that Panther II's performance would be similar to that of Panther Ausf G, while if ever produced Panther II would mostlikely suffer from the same problems as Tiger II.


http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/3244/63co.jpg

HG
04-22-2006, 07:28 AM
Now I never knew that the Germans were building a second type of Panthers.

Panzerknacker can you please tell me in wich museum is that Panther II in?

It actualy is a better idea if they thought of making the parts of both the King Tiger and the Panther II the same and make production much simpler.

Henk

Ostwind01
04-22-2006, 12:12 PM
I think,that germans didn't build a lot of Panther II.They built some prototipe.

Ostwind01
04-22-2006, 12:17 PM
Panther II = Panther Ausf. F ???

http://panzerkeil.dre.hu/harcjarm/panzer/panther/panther.htm

HG
04-22-2006, 12:31 PM
I can not understand a word mate on that link. :(

Henk

Panzerknacker
04-22-2006, 07:39 PM
The Panther II hull with Panther ausf G turret is in the Patton Armor Museum, Fort Knox , USA.


Panther II = Panther Ausf. F ???http://panzerkeil.dre.hu/harcjarm/panzer/panther/panther.htm


Ostwind01 Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:12 am Post subject: Panther II


I think,that germans didn't build a lot of Panther II.They built some prototipe


Yes they build a couple of hulls but never a Panther II turret. The Panther Ausf F and the Panther II are NOT the same vehicle. Those can be confused also with the future replacement of the Panther the E-50, I will wrote about these later.



I can not understand a word mate on that link.

Probably because you not speaking hungarian :twisted:

HG
04-22-2006, 08:30 PM
Dam, I wish I could speak and understand it. :(

Henki

Panzer Ace
04-22-2006, 08:44 PM
Dam, I wish I could speak and understand it. :(

Henki

Hey man i'm with you........ I can only speak english... so if anything is posted in anything but engish... I wont be able to read it.... :x

HG
04-22-2006, 08:52 PM
Yep, I wish I could speak more than two lang. :lol:

Henk

Panzerknacker
04-22-2006, 09:04 PM
Well...I know 3, italian by family, spanish by country and english by....learning :D .

By the way the proyected replacemente for the Panther the E-50 I had already posted in here.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1652&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

The Entwicklung had a 75mm L/70 without muzzle brake, the Panther II should be equipped with a 88mm gun instead.

HG
04-22-2006, 09:13 PM
I only know 2. Afrikaans my spoken language and English from school.

Henk

Panzerknacker
04-25-2006, 08:27 PM
A pretty weird Panther.

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/131/panrhregaser3pi.jpg

This vehicle used large acetilene gas tanks instead the normal petrol fuel. The tank was used for a replacement and intruction Panzer driver unit, the reason for his different tipe of feeding was obvious, to save the always scarce B4.

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/7674/dibujo6ag.jpg

HG
04-25-2006, 08:50 PM
That is quite dangerous, but not stupid if you are low on feul. The Allies would have had a lot of kills if that made it.

Henk

Ostwind01
04-26-2006, 06:14 AM
It was very very dangerous! -BigBumm- :D

Panzerknacker
04-26-2006, 06:39 PM
Dangerous, yes, but you have to remenber that is only for driver unit training not for Front line use.

Ostwind01
04-27-2006, 10:14 AM
Yes.
dangerous training :twisted:


Flakpanzer T-34(r)

http://www.kepfeltoltes.hu/060427/flakt34_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg

Gen. Sandworm
04-27-2006, 12:00 PM
Yes.
dangerous training :twisted:


Flakpanzer T-34(r)

http://www.kepfeltoltes.hu/060427/flakt34_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg

Wasnt this also known as the Celion (spl?) or was that another very similar design?

Panzerknacker
04-27-2006, 04:14 PM
No, that is simply a T-34 with the turret deleted and a 2cm Flakvierling 38 in the top.


Probably you get confused with the Wirbelwind.

Gen. Sandworm
04-28-2006, 02:29 AM
No, that is simply a T-34 with the turret deleted and a 2cm Flakvierling 38 in the top.


Probably you get confused with the Wirbelwind.

Yup that was the one! I stand corrected! :D

Ostwind01
04-28-2006, 05:14 AM
http://2rct.valka.cz/clanky/images/flakt34_s.jpg
http://www.mc-modellbau.de/T-34-37.JPG

Trooper
04-28-2006, 02:23 PM
Hey Ostwind, did you make the diorama? I used to make a lot of 1:35 AFVs, just dont have the patience ( or the eyesight) anymore. 8)

Nowadays I collect ready-made 1:144 -some of them are miniature works of art.

Panzerknacker
04-28-2006, 06:19 PM
Yup that was the one! I stand corrected!


A quote from the excellente Geoge Parada website.

One of the most interesting conversions based on T-34/76 (model 1943) chassis was 2cm Flakvierling auf Fahrgestell T-34(r), an anti-aircraft tank - Flakpanzer. Also known as Flakpanzer T-34(r), it was armed with 20mm Flakvierling 38, which was a four barreled 20mm anti-aircraft L/115 gun.



The armament was mounted in a turret made by field workshop (Werkstattkompanie 653) using armor plates from damaged half-tracks. Ammunition was stored in metal cases on a rack at the rear of the vehicle. It served with headquarters of schwere Heeres Panzerjaeger Abteilung 653, on the Eastern Front in early and mid 1944. Flakpanzer T-34(r) can be compared to post-war Chinese Type 63 anti-aircraft tank based on T-34, which remained in service until late 1980s. In mid 1944, this same unit also used other T-34/76 tanks converted to ammunition carriers designated as Munitionspanzer T-34(r). Also, this unit fielded captured recovery version of T-34 tank mounted with 20mm Flakdrilling, which was twin barreled 20mm anti-aircraft gun. Another interesting conversion was done by Kampfgruppe Kienast in Saxony in 1945 - 88mm Flak 36 gun mounted on a modified T-34/76 chassis

http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/galleries/ruscaptured/T_34_Color/T-34color01.jpg

Ostwind01
05-02-2006, 06:37 AM
"Hey Ostwind, did you make the diorama?"
No.

Panzerknacker
05-03-2006, 07:00 PM
VK 601 ( panzer 1 ausf. C)


http://www.achtungpanzer.com/images/pz1c_9.jpg

http://img419.imageshack.us/img419/2308/texto19mc.jpg


Note: the EW-141 was a fancy designation for a 20mm KWK 38 with minor modifications.

http://img419.imageshack.us/img419/6160/panzer1c2su.jpg


In Normandy , the guns had a muzzle cover.

http://img419.imageshack.us/img419/8986/normandia0vw.jpg


Profile. The Versuchs Ketten /Pz Ausf 1 C was an german attemp for a tank like the british Tetrarch or the American M22 Locust.

http://img419.imageshack.us/img419/4412/t1c2nv.gif

Ostwind01
05-04-2006, 07:49 AM
pretty panzer :D

SS Tiger
05-04-2006, 10:16 AM
Some of those wheels look like dust bin lids!

HG
05-04-2006, 04:22 PM
It is really a funny tank.

Henk

Panzerknacker
05-08-2006, 05:46 PM
Several pics showing how to carry the Maus in his special 14 wheleed train car.

http://i3.tinypic.com/x51mw4.jpg


http://i3.tinypic.com/x51nqg.jpg


http://i1.tinypic.com/x51pp1.jpg

HG
05-08-2006, 06:18 PM
Great pics mate. They waste too much time on the Maus. Is this the one that has the mock turret in the Russian museum today?

Henk

Panzerknacker
05-08-2006, 06:28 PM
Probably, The russian made his Maus with a nonturreted vehicle and the parts of others 2 still in factory.

HG
05-08-2006, 06:55 PM
Ok, now I see.

Henk

Ostwind01
05-09-2006, 04:59 AM
188 t. crazy tank.

Panzerknacker
05-10-2006, 08:56 PM
Another weird one the heavy "support vehicle" panzer 1 ausf F.

http://www.acehobby.co.nz/ossb2/club/ampsnz/realafvs/WWII/German/Tank/p1mock2a.jpg


http://www.acehobby.co.nz/ossb2/club/ampsnz/realafvs/WWII/German/Tank/pz1f1.jpg

http://www.acehobby.co.nz/ossb2/club/ampsnz/realafvs/WWII/German/Tank/pz1f2.jpg


This heavy vehicle was not a "blitzkrieg" tank because his slowness, What was used for ? No idea, I accept suggestions.

Dani
05-10-2006, 10:52 PM
In first instance Panzerkampfwagen 1 was intended as a training tank. Design started in 1932. Henschel produced the first 3 prototypes in December 1933. Krauss-Maffei completed 30 pieces of Panzerkampfwagen 1 Ausf F from April to December 1942.

Lancer44
05-10-2006, 11:00 PM
I think that my question fit into this "panzer thread".
If not Moderator can move it.

Look at the picture:

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/2917/panthers4fd.th.jpg (http://img230.imageshack.us/my.php?image=panthers4fd.jpg)

They are unmistakenly Panthers Ausfierung D. Tracks looks strange...
Do you know why they tensioned them like that?

Here you can see "normal" Panther Ausf D:

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/3959/pantherausfd6pm.th.jpg (http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pantherausfd6pm.jpg)

Cheers,

Lancer44

Lancer44
05-11-2006, 01:37 AM
This is special present for Panzerknacker:

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/9852/105vickers6wq.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

150mm howitzer mounted onto Vickers tank chassis.
It was called "15cm leFh 16auf Fqst Geschutzwagen MkVI(e)

Lancer44

Ostwind01
05-11-2006, 07:07 AM
Great pics Lancer!

SS Tiger
05-11-2006, 09:09 AM
They are unmistakenly Panthers Ausfierung D. Tracks looks strange...
Do you know why they tensioned them like that?

Interesting, maybe they ran out of track and had to just make do with what they had, which meant less links to go round?

Panzerknacker
05-11-2006, 11:05 AM
In first instance Panzerkampfwagen 1 was intended as a training tank. Design started in 1932. Henschel produced the first 3 prototypes in December 1933. Krauss-Maffei completed 30 pieces of Panzerkampfwagen 1 Ausf F from April to December 1942.

Yea, the "normal" Panzer 1 was for training, nevertheless the VK-1801/ausf F had no relation with the light 5 ton vehicle. I had a book about rare Panzers I will scan something later.


This is special present for Panzerknacker

Thanks.

1000ydstare
05-11-2006, 11:52 AM
You refer to teh Panzer Mk1 F as a support vehicle. I may well have been an infantry support vehicle (it's weaponry suggests such a role in the form of twin machine guns) so would not need speed nor (if it was attached to infantry) would it be a Blitz wagon with the requirement to keep up with the rest of the mainly mechanised Blitz weaponry.

pdf27
05-11-2006, 12:22 PM
They are unmistakenly Panthers Ausfierung D. Tracks looks strange...
Do you know why they tensioned them like that?
The whole photo just looks wrong somehow. Could they be scale models?

Lancer44
05-11-2006, 06:17 PM
pdf27 wrote:



The whole photo just looks wrong somehow. Could they be scale models?

I think so too. This photo comes from this site:

http://www.panzer-reich.co.uk/

There is an extensive gallery but all photos are without any explanations.
Look at "mixed color"
I think that at least some of them are post-war movies sets.

Lancer44

Lancer44
05-11-2006, 06:30 PM
Now sort of a real gem dedicated to Panzerkancker again :D

This beauty is called "Kugelpanzer".

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/5766/kugelpanzer26du.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/8881/kugelpanzer37qa.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

This strange thing was captured by soviets and now can be seen in Tank Museum in Kubinka near Moscow.
Russians are saying that Kugelpanzer was sort of reconnaisance vehicle.
IMHO it's wrong.
I don't think such monster would be able to move on anything other than concrete or asphalt. Look at the back support wheel.
I think that Kugelpanzer is sort of movable observation point for viewing
things in dangerous situations eg. making photos of anti-tank shells when they hit target.

What do you think?

Cheers,

Lancer44

P.S.

Link to Tank Museum: http://www.tankmuseum.ru/index_e.html

SS Tiger
05-12-2006, 08:02 AM
Maybe a mobile pill box? To quickly get guard positions on roads and railways etc. The wheel at the back would seem to aid in shipping and loading not move the thing itself. It looks like it has treads or rack for cogs, maybe it was a convert from a gun turret?

Panzerknacker
05-12-2006, 05:41 PM
Interesting, I have seen in use steel shields for the fordward artillery observers and also some improvised armor for the Snipers (specially in the WW2 eastern Front) but none like this.

Panzerknacker
05-12-2006, 09:00 PM
You refer to teh Panzer Mk1 F as a support vehicle. I may well have been an infantry support vehicle (it's weaponry suggests such a role in the form of twin machine guns) so would not need speed nor (if it was attached to infantry) would it be a Blitz wagon with the requirement to keep up with the rest of the mainly mechanised Blitz weaponry.

The "support" thing was tentative name, I dont think that he was very effective in that role because it lack of punch, A point in favor was his armor 80mm front and 50 mm side (heavier than Panzer III/IV :shock: )

http://www.acehobby.co.nz/ossb2/club/ampsnz/realafvs/WWII/German/Tank/pz1f3.jpg


, but honestly comparing with the real infantry supports tanks like the british Matildas, Churchill, the armament was almost nil.

Another task that I see asigned to this AFV was recon duties....dont think so...because is too slow, only 23 km/h.

More info about the Vk-1801/ Panzer 1 ausf.F

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/8093/rrr0pe.jpg

In use in the former USSR:

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/2600/panzeriausff14jv.jpg

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/4649/panzer1ausff20oa.jpg


The MGs were enclosed in a heavy armored housing

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/3184/pzkpfwiausff6cf.jpg

The pair of MG-34s can reach a combined ciclic rate of 1900rpm, the normal ammo was the AP steel core SmK.

Panzerknacker
05-20-2006, 08:11 PM
E-100 Heavy Tank.

The E-100 was originally designed as an Waffenamt alternative to the Porsche-designed superheavy Maus tank. It was authorized in June, 1943 and work in earnest continued until 1944 when Hitler officially ended development of superheavy tanks. After Hitler's announcement, only three Alder employees were allowed to continue assembly of the prototype, and the work was given lowest priority. Even with these handicaps, the three workers were able to virtually complete the prototype by war's end at a small Henschel facility near Paderborn. The prototype lacked only a turret (which was to be identical to the Maus turret save in armament).


For it's initial tests, a Tiger II Maybach HL230P30 engine had been fitted. This engine, of course, was far too weak to properly power the 140 ton E-100. The production engine was to be the Maybach HL234. The HL234 developed 800hp, which is only 100hp better than the HL230P30. Some sources indicate that a Diamler-Benz diesel which developed 1000hp would have ultimately been used.


The Maus mounted the 12.8cm KwK 44 L/55 found in the Jagdtiger. Using the same turret, the E-100 was initially slated to use the 15cm KwK44 L38, but provision was made to eventually up-gun the vehicle with a 17cm KwK 44.

The E-100 was very conventional in its architecture. The standard rear-engine / front-drive layout was maintained. The engine deck of the Tiger II was also carried over into this design (rather than the updated designof the E 50/75). The suspension was characteristic of the E-series, however, in that it was of the externally-mounted Belleville Washer type. While the engine-deck layout of the prototype was taken directly from the Tiger II, it is entirely possible that it would have been changed to match the E 50/75 had production of the E-series actually began to allow for maximum commonality of components.


The armor on the E-100 was designed to withstand hits from just about any anti-tank round of the day. Armor on the turret ranged from 200mm on the sides and rear to 240mm on the front. The turret roof was protected by a seemingly paltry 40mm of armor. Unfortunately, the round shape of the turret front could have deflected shots downward into the top of the superstructure. Armor protection on the superstructure varried from 200mm on the front to a total of 180mm on the sides and 150mm on the rear. The top of the superstructure was protected by the same 40mm of armor found on the turret. The hull had 150mm of armor on the front and rear and 120mm on the sides behind the suspension. Protection on the bottom of the hull was good at 80mm.

Given the armored protection of the E-100, most tanks would have needed a shot to deflect into the top of the superstructure from the turret front to knock it out. The vehicle would have, however, been highly vunerable to air attack as the angles presented to dive bombers or fighter/bombers would have been protected to only 40mm. This protection is comparable to the Tiger II in the same areas.


Panzerkampfwagen E-100

Crew: 5 Armament: one 15cm KwK44 L/38 + one 7.5cm KwK44 L/36.5 + one (or three) 7.92mm MG34
Weight: 140 tons Traverse: 360o (power)
Length: 10.27 meters Elevation: -7o +23o
Width: 4.48 meters Engine: Maybach HL234
Height: 3.29 Gearbox: 8 forward, 4 reverse (with provision for Mekydro transmission)
Radio: FuG5 Speed: 30 km/h.

Lancer44
05-21-2006, 01:27 AM
Hi Panzerknacker, :)

Very interesting find!
I just wonder... most of small country bridges in Germany and Europe this time, had maximum weight limit 60 tons or less. Even today many of them have signs indicating that only one semi-trailer can go at the time - they are narrow anyway...
Why Germans put so much effort into building tanks which would have so limited river crossing abilities?
Was it just Hitler's madness?
Soviets had a period when they had beed doing the same thing - bigger is better - hence T-35, but they quickly realised that "land battleship" is a crazy idea and abandoned all such projects after Winter War in Finland.
Why Germans pursued it right to the end of the war?

Salute,

Lancer44

SS Tiger
05-21-2006, 06:35 AM
The only bridges strong enough would be railway bridges, maybe they planed to move them by rail using the heavy tanks to defend villages and towns, then using the lighter IVs and Tigers for their Blitz Krieg moves?

Lancer44
05-21-2006, 06:48 AM
The only bridges strong enough would be railway bridges, maybe they planed to move them by rail using the heavy tanks to defend villages and towns, then using the lighter IVs and Tigers for their Blitz Krieg moves?

Hi SS Tiger, :)

Sure, you're right, railway transport on the long distances, but what about movement on the battlefield?
Look at the map of France. Such heavy weight tank would be virtually closed into very small area. Loading it onto semi would not sort the problem - bridges still would not allow that heavy weight to be transported across countryside.
The whole idea is crazy. :shock:

Lancer44

Panzerknacker
05-21-2006, 12:44 PM
Very interesting find!
I just wonder... most of small country bridges in Germany and Europe this time, had maximum weight limit 60 tons or less. Even today many of them have signs indicating that only one semi-trailer can go at the time - they are narrow anyway...Why Germans put so much effort into building tanks which would have so limited river crossing abilities?
?

The Tiger 1 (56 tons) had similar troubles with the raod bridges but this did not cut off his combat abilities, only that it need some pioneers ( enginner) working to reinforce all the estructures ahead, that was particulary needed in the Eastern Front wich had less inestructure.

The Maus and the E-100 were designed will full fooding abilities with a maximum of 6-7 m deep, they were not espected to cross brigdes by itflesf only in th erailway transport as SS Tiger said.




Was it just Hitler's madness?
Soviets had a period when they had beed doing the same thing - bigger is better - hence T-35, but they quickly realised that "land battleship" is a crazy idea and abandoned all such projects after Winter War in Finland.
Why Germans pursued it right to the end of the war?

Hitler and other people madness, like Porsche ( designer of Maus) and Grotte (designer of the P-1000 landkreuzer).

The soviets abandoned the "multiturreted" concept...but no the heavy tank concept like the KV-2, JS-2, etc.

HG
05-22-2006, 07:14 PM
I am just wondering if the E-100 are still with us today? It is great and stupid what the Germans did, the designed such monsters and also looked past the other problems.

Henk

Lancer44
05-22-2006, 10:33 PM
Some additional photos of E-100:

http://img456.imageshack.us/img456/6227/e10017lm.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Chassis assembly in Haustenbeck.

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/5478/e10028kk.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7653/e10035hq.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
E-100 chassis prepared for transportation to Great Britain.

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6751/e10048hs.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/7290/e10053ik.gif (http://imageshack.us)

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/3300/e100069vu.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Here interesting Polish Panzer site:
http://www.panzer.punkt.pl/index.htm

Enjoy!

Lancer44

SS Tiger
05-23-2006, 01:57 AM
What scale is that three view? Comparing a 1:76 scale Tiger to it that thing is huge!!!

Panzerknacker
05-23-2006, 05:58 PM
I dont know but the turret in the E-100 seems huge when you compared it with his hull.

Chaeper than Maus aniway.

Lancer44
05-23-2006, 09:03 PM
I dont know but the turret in the E-100 seems huge when you compared it with his hull.

Chaeper than Maus aniway.

I agree with you - it is disproportionally big.
I have a feeling that Germans wanted somewhat make it more comfy for the crew. Here look at models of Tiger turret interiors:


Loading 88mm cannon had to be a nightmare. :)
Sorry for posting models but do not have any pics of Tiger interior - and those open cut models are quite good.
Cannot figure out where they kept ammo(???)
At the bottom compartment?
Obviously gun loader which doubled as MG gunner had the hardest work.


The last pic doesn't show ammo too.
Obvious choice would be to keep ammo in external storage at the back of the turret (in vertical position), but I cannot see any acess from inside.
I think external boxes are just for crew belongings and bivouac equipment.

Do you know more about ammo for Acht Koma Acht?

Cheers,

Lancer44

P.S

And all this is nothing if you start thinking about P 1000 "Ratte".

Panzerknacker
05-23-2006, 10:19 PM
Do you know more about ammo for Acht Koma Acht?

The ammo in the Tiger 1 was the 88x570mm, the gun was denominated KWK 36.

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/Tiger1-2002-Picz/Tiger1-Ammo.jpg

As far as the Tiger I is concerned, the two main types of armor piercing ammunition were the APCBC and the APCR. The Armor Piercing Capped, Ballistic Capped (APCBC) Panzergranate 39 round relied not only on its own weight to penetrate the enemy's armor, but was also filled with high explosive that caused great internal damage. The APCBC round has two caps covering the main body of the round. The first one is a cap designed for ballistic performance, and is a blunt cap, because a projectile with a blunt nose has less chance to ricochet off inclined armor. This is covered by the second cap, a sharp one, a "windshield" made of light metal, designed to give the round a better aerodynamic shape.

The initial muzzle velocity of this was more or less 780-790 m/s.


The Armor Piercing Composite Rigid (APCR) Panzergranate 40 round was made with a tungsten core. It improved the armor penetration about 25 % , but it was not much used because the scarce Tugsten supply, the initial muzzle velocity of this was 940 m/s.

SS Tiger
05-24-2006, 11:19 AM
I don't think this would be classed as a Panzer, but it is interesting none the less!

One of the strangest German vehicles discovered after the war was a huge four wheeled device built by Krupp. This vehicle was the Krupp Raumer S.

This vehicle was built in 1944. It weighed in at 130 tons and was support by 2.7 meter diameter steel wheels. The huge vehicle pivoted in the middle to keep the vehicles turning circle a reasonable distance. Each half of the Raumer S was powered by a 12-cylinder Maybach HL90 engine.

There is still discussion about this vehicles purpose, but it is widely believed that due to the vehicle’s high ground clearance and well protected cabin it was used to clear mine fields. The front and rear wheels were at different spacing in order to create a bigger sweep area. It had a cab at either end which allowed it to reverse back through mine fields(assuming that was its purpose) without having to turn around. There seems to be a flaw with the mine sweeping role, that is the connection in the middle seems quite exposed and would seemingly be prone to damage from exploding mines.

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/votw/images/raumers_1.jpg

Panzerknacker
05-24-2006, 06:15 PM
Big and complicated, undoubtely german.

Seems that they never think in the roller or plough tipe mineclearing devices. :?

HG
05-24-2006, 09:15 PM
Can anyone please tell me what happend to the E-100??????

Great pics mate.

Henk

Lancer44
05-24-2006, 11:06 PM
Can anyone please tell me what happend to the E-100??????

Great pics mate.

Henk

Hi Henk,

Chassis of E-100 was transported to England in 1945.
I'm not sure if it ended it's life as scrap metal or can be seen in Bovington.
Perhaps someone can clarify.

And now something which will blow your socks off!
The most crazy German project - "Midgard Schlange"!
In front of THIS even E-100 would look like a child's toy.

"The Engineergroup Ritter designed this project ... the name derives from Teutonic Mythology, it was a demonic monster, which embraced with its giant length the whole earth. Thor, god of thunder, was its arch-enemy and tried many times to kill it. Finally in the twilight of the gods he slayed it with his hammer, but was also killed by its poisonous breath.

"The first plans to this project were made in Summer 1934, it should be a vehicle that can drive like a tank on the ground, under the earth like a mole and under the sea up to 100m deep!! All in all the vehicle was made of 77 single cells of 6.8m width, 3.5m height and 6m length, put together to a snake of about 524m! On the front it should have a giant drill put together of 4 single drills, each 1.5m diameter. The drills were connected to 9 engines with 8800 PS altogether. For moving on the ground the tracks were driven by 14 engines, giving 19800 PS ... the snake should have a speed on the ground of about 30 km/h, 10 km/h under ground and about 30 km/h under water. For underwater driving there were additional 12 engines with 3000 PS altogether. It was planned to take 960 m3 of engine fuel in the vehicle. Also there was planned to put an electric kitchen, a bedroom with 20 beds, 3 workshops, some periscopes and 580 big compressed-air bottles as well as a smoke discharging equipment. For armamenent there were 1000 mine charges with 250kg explosives each, 100 smaller charges with 10kg each and 12 twin-MG's. The whole vehicle would have a weight of 60,000 tons (!) and a crew of 30. The "inventor" of this monster planned to build 20 of these vehicles to put explosive charges at and under fortresses of the Maginot-line and hostile harbors to get breakthroughs!!!"

Part of the article was taken from this site:

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/1167/emidgard.html


Lancer44

Dani
05-25-2006, 03:31 AM
Chassis of E-100 was transported to England in 1945.
I'm not sure if it ended it's life as scrap metal or can be seen in Bovington.
Perhaps someone can clarify.

AFAIK the E-100 chassis was scrapped in the 50s.

HG
05-25-2006, 09:36 PM
Hi Lancer44,

Thanks for the info mate and it is a shame that they scraped them and did not preserve them.

Great info mate.

Henk

crowbar
06-01-2006, 06:15 AM
I think that my question fit into this "panzer thread".
If not Moderator can move it.

Look at the picture:

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/2917/panthers4fd.th.jpg (http://img230.imageshack.us/my.php?image=panthers4fd.jpg)

They are unmistakenly Panthers Ausfierung D. Tracks looks strange...
Do you know why they tensioned them like that?

Here you can see "normal" Panther Ausf D:

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/3959/pantherausfd6pm.th.jpg (http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pantherausfd6pm.jpg)

Cheers,

Lancer44

its not a model shot - from what I ve seen in the schiffer panther book these photos were taken at an event where most of the workable panthers (13?) which had only just started production then
were displayed to Speer. It was a bit of a fiasco with about half dropping out and/or having to be towed due to mechanical failures - as it was a new vehicle at the time I guess they were just starting the learning curve. the track tensioning wouldnt have helped reliability much though

Panzerknacker
07-28-2006, 06:58 PM
Aditional pics of the Porsche Maus.

V1 with fake turret.

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/4076/maus1mi9.jpg



The Daimler Benz sufer to move the 190 tons of Panzer, check the exhaust gases.

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1318/mausafondobo7.jpg



Rare pic, maus V1 passing a KV-1 captured in 1941, the soviet tank is demolished by several shots from AT guns and hollow charges , place of the pic is the test fields of Kummersdorf.

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/7639/mauskvwv1.jpg



V1 Con applied camo, in the Boblingen test grund.

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/5232/maus4cv7.jpg

Panzerknacker
07-28-2006, 06:59 PM
More....

Some field test.

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/2855/maus5jg0.jpg



Even quiet slow seems a funny trip.

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/8749/maus6gn2.jpg




Cleaning ...check the deep tracks and the fire extinguishers.

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/1487/maus7ob3.jpg



Close up to the definitive 128mm turret, the thickness of the armor is evident.

http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/4329/maus9ja5.jpg


Source : Maus und Andere Panzerprojekte-Waffen Arsenal.

MrBigBoom
07-31-2006, 07:12 PM
A funny little vehicle... "From 1936, the RR7 was developed by Saurer as an artillery tractor for the Austrian army. Testing was completed and in 1937, an order was placed for the tractors which were manufactured in 1938. About 12 vehicles were made prior to "Anschluss". After Austria was incorporated into Germany in 1938, the vehicle continued to be manufactured. Records indicate that a total of 140 units were built. The new designator for Germany was Sd Kfz 254. Notable features of this tank were it's wheel-cum-track layout and a diesel motor."http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/austria/rr7.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/austria/austrian-saurer-rr7.jpg

MrBigBoom
07-31-2006, 07:17 PM
http://www.panzernet.net/panzernet/fotky/stihace/trager/012.jpg
http://www.panzernet.net/panzernet/fotky/stihace/trager/044.jpg

Ke snížení obrovské početní převahy ruské obrněné techniky se Němci rozhodli využít levných a snadno vyrobitelných samohybných protitankových děl. Snaha o jejich co nejmasovější produkci je nutila využívat jako nosiče těchto zbraní všechny dostupné podvozky. Vedle podvozků vlastních tanků tedy samozřejmě i podvozky všemožných kořistních strojů. To vedlo ke tříštění výroby a ve svém důsledku k jejímu prodražování. Neefektivní byla rovněž nutnost držet velké množství různých náhradních dílů v polních dílnách stejně jako učit mechaniky i posádky rozumět mnoha různým strojům. Totéž platilo i pro klasická samohybná děla.

Není tedy divu, že se již roku 1942 začaly objevovat požadavky na vývoj jednoho univerzálního podvozku pro nesení zbraní všeho druhu. Oficiální objednávka na vývoj takového stroje však přišla až počátkem roku 1944. Zbrojní úřad formuloval požadavky na nový stroj a obeslal jimi všechny významné německé výrobce tankové techniky. Nosič měl spočívat na plně pásovém podvozku, jehož konstrukce by v co největší míře využívala prvků již vyráběných tanků. Stroj neměl být vyzbrojen jednou konkrétní zbraní, ale měl být použitelný pro nesení více druhů kanonů. Čili na jeden univerzální podvozek mělo být možné, bez jakýchkoliv složitějších zásahů do jeho konstrukce, lafetovat některou z více volitelných zbraní.

Přitom měly být vyvinuty dvě odlišné verze tohoto podvozku - lehčí a těžší. Volitelnými zbraněmi pro lehčí nosič měly být protitankový kanon PaK 40 L/46 ráže 75 mm, rovněž protitankový PaK 44 L/70 stejné ráže, houfnice FH 18/40 ráže 105 mm nebo 120-ti milimetrový minomet. Těžší podvozek potom měl být schopen nést buď protitankový kanon PaK 43 L/71 ráže 88 mm, 150-ti milimetrovou houfnici FH 43 nebo kanon K 43 ráže 128 mm.

(Can't translate).

Panzerknacker
08-01-2006, 07:24 PM
Nice pics of the WaffenT 88, sadly no polish speaking, can you rewrite a little of this in english.?

Dani
08-01-2006, 10:56 PM
Nice pics of the WaffenT 88, sadly no polish speaking, can you rewrite a little of this in english.?
There's no Polish, there's Czech...

Lancer44
08-01-2006, 11:10 PM
There's no Polish, there's Czech...

I tried to help but had to give up... It's one thing to "talk" with Czech friends drinking beer and quite another translating technical lingo.
Maybe Jasa "the bolshevik" can help?
He is from Prague.

Cheers,

Lancer44

MrBigBoom
08-02-2006, 10:55 AM
I couldnt translate that article, but i found more information...
"One vehicle saw action in April of 1945, near Berlin at Brandeburg
with 3rd Panzer Jaeger Abt. attached to Infantry Division "Ulrich von Hutten".
Second photo was taken in May of 1946 at Kubinka during tests of captured vehicle.
Today. this vehicle is on display at the museum at Kubinka. "
and more pictures...
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/images/d88_6.jpg
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/images/d88_5.jpg
http://www.panzernet.net/panzernet/fotky/samohybky/ostatni/002.jpg
http://www.panzernet.net/panzernet/fotky/samohybky/ostatni/001.jpg

FW-190 Pilot
08-20-2006, 03:27 PM
anyways, there is a tank that they rebuild from spare part
http://www12.discuss.com.hk/viewthread.php?tid=2090634&extra=page%3D1
this is chinese site, but i just want to show the picture (post 1 from that forum)

PanzerRoss
10-28-2006, 02:53 PM
Has anyone got info of this vehicle also known as Bussing NAG HKp 902 it was a halftrack , 3 chassis built , 2 sent too Afrika Korp armed with 75m L40/8 gun in revolving turret on a armoured body of a 5t halftrack pictures have appeard in Rommels Funnies by Tom Jentz, Enc German Tanks chamberlain and Doyle, Sdkfz6 by Rue, I have front and side views but no views of the REAR engine compartment or plan views from above these vehicles were the 3rd prototype versions with full mudguards front to rear the third vehicle was used as a one off V2 command vehicle, FCM have produced models of the earlier types but it is the ones sent to NA I am interested in.

PanzerRoss
10-28-2006, 03:00 PM
Have just bought Tamiya 1/35th Char B1 bis want to convert to the above vehicle has anyone got rear and interior ammunition stowage arrangements have Speilbergers book Beutepanzer but no rear views any help gratefully received. Also does anyone know of a kit of AMR35 in 1/35th scale?

Dani
10-28-2006, 03:50 PM
http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/75cm_selbst_model2.htm

In Polish. Our Polish friends might help.

Panzerknacker
10-28-2006, 03:53 PM
Nice Waffentrager, I didnt know this.

Dani
10-28-2006, 03:54 PM
Some additional pics.

Dani
10-28-2006, 03:57 PM
Also check Type A:
http://www.v2rocket.com/start/scale/fr/fr_batterie_feuerleitwagen.html

Panzerknacker
10-28-2006, 04:06 PM
I think I going to ad this to the topic of the projekts and prototipes.



in revolving turret on a armoured body of a 5t halftrack


Seems a limited traverse turret to me.

Kovalski
10-28-2006, 04:32 PM
http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/75cm_selbst_model2.htm

In Polish. Our Polish friends might help.

"The series of 4 vehicles was built on the chassis of 5-ton tractor with the engines mounted in the back and armed with 75 mm guns. The vehicles were driven by the Maybach HL 45 engines (carburetor, 6-cylinder - power of 110 kilowatts). Two of these were in combat use in Africa, one of them was damaged and captured by the British. The third was reconstructed for mobile and armored V-2 rocket launcher and fourth was tested with mounted Flak 41 5 cm AA gun. The other name of this vehicle is Büssing-NAG HKp 902."

dgk196
11-20-2006, 01:57 AM
Hello,

Guys, its just physics / gravity in action. The increased tension is due to

weight transfer and the track reaction is sort of like pulling on a rope. Initially

the tracks 'get tight' as you increase the 'load' on them. As the vehicle load

either is reduced the tracks return to their 'normal' position. If you look

closely at photographs or film footage you will see this phenominom. This

photo just happens to show a situation where the track tensioning due to

load is more extreme because of the slope.

Dennis

Panzerknacker
12-18-2006, 08:08 PM
www.achtungpanzer.com (http://www.achtungpanzer.com)

www.panzerschreck.de (http://www.panzerschreck.de)

German Armored rarities (book) Waffen arsenal band 10.

Panzerknacker
12-28-2006, 09:09 AM
An interesting self propelled howitzer with a 360 º traverse.

http://i13.tinypic.com/43yj037.jpg


Extracted from: Enciclopedya of German tanks.

Panzerknacker
01-10-2007, 06:46 PM
Panzerspähwagen Schildkröte I, II und III

Three prototype four-wheeled amphibious armored cars - Schildkröte (Turtle) I, II and III were designed by Hans Trippel in 1941 and build by Trippelwerke at Molsheim in October of 1942.

The vehicles were powered by an 125 hp V8 Tatra air-cooled engine. It had good performance on the road and in the water being the Sch III the most powerful of the series with an 20 mm gun. This was not the Kwk 38 from the panzer but a an aeronautical MG-151/20 cannon.

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/votw/images/sch3.jpg


Mg-151/20 with open sights.

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/357/mg151yj4.jpg

However the requeriments for flotation ( an obvious characteristic in an amphibious vehicle) means that the armor was to be light with a maximum of 10 mm . The Waffeamnt did not like that characteristics and decide to not purchase the vehicle.

Schildkröte III in water.

http://i11.tinypic.com/4d3j21s.jpg




Panzerspähwagen Trippel E3 / E3M

In 1943 and 1944, based on Schildkröte III, new Panzerspähwagen Trippel E3 (E = Einheits = Standard) series was built. Only three prototypes were build including single turretless E3M ammunition carrier. The armor was between 5.5-14.5mm In October of 1944, Waffenamt decided that such vehicles were not needed.

Turretless prototipe.

http://i14.tinypic.com/2hcf4gx.jpg

Panzerknacker
01-14-2007, 04:55 PM
VK1601 (panzer II ausf J )


The VersuchsKetten 1601 (experimental fully tracked vehicle 16 tons model 01) was a tank slightly based on the Panzer II. The object was to improve the armor and therefore the survivality in the battefield. In order to do so the frontal armor was 80 mm and 50 mm in the side hull /turret. This tank copied the crew layout in the Pz II , with an Tank commander/gunner/ loader, radio operator and driver.

http://i14.tinypic.com/34ig30o.jpg


The delopment for an "0" series was issued in december 1939, development of the chassis was entrusted ton MAN and the turret went to Daimler-Benz. The fisrt VK1601 was completed in June 1940.
This tank had an interleaved suspension of similar desing to the prototipe "VK901" but more strongly built in order to support the aditional weight. The hull and the superestructure was buil as one unit ( A departure from the german practice up to this time wich was a bolted superestructure.)

http://i16.tinypic.com/2vvtb1j.jpg

In total 22 VK1601 were manufactured between April - December 1942, The "ausf J" designation was a extraoficial one used mostly by the soldiers. The armament being a 20 mm automatic KwK 38 gun and a 7,92mm MG-34 with 2150 AP bullets. The turret was traversible only by hand.

Bergenpanzer II ausf J.

http://i18.tinypic.com/2z6wlg7.jpg

Seven VK 1601 (Ausf J) were issued to 12th Panzer Division, which was fighting on the Eastern Front. In 1944, one of them was converted into a recovery vehicle - Bergepanzer II Ausf J. Later on in 1944/45, the same vehicle served with Panzer Werkstatt Kompanie (Tank Repair Company) of 116th Panzer Division.

http://www.panzernet.net/panzernet/fotky/tanky/pz2/079j.jpg

Panzerknacker
02-09-2007, 08:48 AM
VersuchsKetten VK601 & 602 ( Panzer 1 neuer art ausf C)


http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/6164/extra2uu8.jpg

On September 15th 1939 the ordnance department was given the order to get a light reconnaissance tank developed with enhanced armor than Pz 1 A. The company of Krauss-Maffei in Munich was responsible for making the chassis while Daimler-Benz got the responsibility for superstructure and turret. The project was known as VK601 or better known as Panzerkampfwagen I Na Ausf.C.


The engine in the proto was the Maybach HL45P with 150 metric hp, giving the vehicle a maximum speed of 65km/h.The tank commander/gunner had 8 periscopes in a tiny cuppola.


The appearance of the Ausf.C was completely different from the previous Ausf.A and B. The suspension features big interleaved wheels and torsion bar suspension with internal hidroneumatic shock absorvers. This really improve the mobility over bad terrain.


The crew of two men had as main armament a heavy machinegun EW141 machinegun and a coaxial MG34.
There is a lot of mistakes in the websites when describing the EW-141. Some say it was a 13mm gun some even describe it as a 20 mm cannon.

Actually this was a 7,92mm caliber Mauser desing originally called "MG-141" , the EW just mean "Einbauwaffe" or emplacement gun. This recoil operated gun use the large the cartrigdes of the Pzb 38 & 39 antiarmor rifles, it was a semiauto weapon with a muzzle velocity of 1180 m/s and could penetrate 26 mm of armor up to 100 meters in a vertical plate. So in that way the ausf C had a limited antitank capacity.

The weight was 8,1 tons, a length of 4.19m, width 1.92m and height of 2.01m. The power to weight ratio of 18.2hp/t was remarkable, which was one of the reasons for the high speed. With a length of 2.2m where track touches ground and a track width of 39cm resulted in a ground pressure of 0.46 kg/cm2. The track had 89 single track links, . The VK601 was able to wade up to 78.5cm deep, pass over 1.2m wide trenches and could climb 30cm high obstacles.


http://img471.imageshack.us/img471/1958/044fd6.jpg

Before production some changes were introduced , including a some dry pin tracks wich have less mantainance that the lubricated ones. Also a more powerful engine HL61 was installed. bThe vehicle was now denominated VK602.

40 Panzer I Ausf.C were produced between July of 1942 and april 1943, of which two were delivered to 1st panzer division early in 1943 and troop tested in Russia.

The remaining 38 vehicles were taken to reserve units of the LVIII Panzer reserve Korps in France. Those came in action in 1944 in the battles in the Normandy.

Pz ausf 1 c in France , june 1944. The guns had a muzzle cover

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/4449/normandiawh5.jpg

Wolfgang Von Gottberg
03-03-2007, 07:26 PM
This topic is dedicated to the multi-turret Panzer V experimental tank designed before the Panther. It was never mass-produced though, for it was to much like the T-35 - which was only basically used in parades...

I couldn't find any info on this tank while surfing the web, but I did find this in one of my father's ancient German Weapon's of WW2 books...

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s81/GermanWW2/PanzerVExperimental.jpg

Wolfgang Von Gottberg
03-03-2007, 07:43 PM
By the way...

I wasn't a messy cropper (For once! LOL), so there are actually no specifications. I guess everything except for the explanation is pretty much unknown.

Bigcat
03-04-2007, 01:27 AM
i'm ashamed:cry: iv'e never heared of the panzer v experemental tank. ither way il'l keep looking.

tom!
03-04-2007, 06:39 AM
Hi.

Make a search for "Neubaufahrzeug" or "Nbfz"/"Nb.Fz".

Yours

tom! ;)

Wolfgang Von Gottberg
03-04-2007, 06:51 AM
Same with this...
http://www.zorich.ru/articles/day9/Pz_nor.jpg

http://www.panzer-modell.de/referenz/fotoecke/bild62.jpg

http://www.2svetovavalka.kvalitne.cz/technika/obrnenci/tanks/nem_neubaufahrz.jpg

And here is a model of one...
http://cidwebs.com/armorinscale/images/Armo%20Nbfz-31a.jpg

Wolfgang Von Gottberg
03-04-2007, 07:08 AM
The German Neubaufahrzeug series of tank prototypes were a first attempt to create a heavy tank for the Wehrmacht after Adolf Hitler had come to power. Multi-turreted, heavy and slow, they did not fit in with the Blitzkrieg tactics and there were only five made. These were primarily used for propaganda purposes, though three took part in the invasion of Norway in 1940.

Development of the Neubaufahrzeug (German for "new construction vehicle") started in 1933 when the then Reichswehr gave a contract for the development of a 'Großtraktor' (heavy tractor) to both Rheinmetall-Borsig and Krupp. 'Grosstractor' was a codename for the development of a heavy tank, Germany being still forbidden to develop tanks under the terms of the Treaty of Versailles.

The two designs resembled each other to a great extent, the main difference being the weapons placement. Each had a main turret armed with a 75 mm KwK L/24 main gun and secondary 37 mm Tankkanone L/45, with Rheinmetall's design mounting the second gun above the 75 mm KwK L/24, while the Krupp design had it mounted next to the 75 mm KwK L/24. Both designs had two secondary turrets mounted to the front and the rear of the main turret. These secondary turrets were slightly adapted Panzer I turrets, with the standard machinegun armament.

Rheinmetall's design was designated the PzKpfw NbFz V ('PanzerKampfwagen NeubauFahrzeug V'), and the Krupp design the PzKpfw NbFz VI. It was intended that these designs would fulfill the role of heavy tank in the armored forces, but the design proved to be too complex and unreliable for this role. Development nevertheless continued in order for the nascent German military to gain experience with multi-turreted tanks.

In 1934 Rheinmetall built two mild steel prototypes, the first armed with an in-house turret design, and the second with a Krupp turret. Three more prototypes were built with proper armor and the Krupp turret in 1935 and 1936.

Though these tanks were never placed in production, they provided a propaganda tool for Nazi Germany, for example being shown at the International Automobile Exposition in Berlin in 1939.

This propaganda role was extended with the German invasion of Norway, when a special panzerabteilung was formed which took the three armored prototypes with them to Oslo. They saw some combat there, with one being blown up by German engineers when it got stuck in swamps near Andalsnes. To replace it, one of the mild steel prototypes was used.

It is unclear what happened to the tanks after the Norway campaign, but none of them survived the war. The Surviving vehicles were ordered scrapped in 1941, which event took place in 1942 according to documents captured by the British in 1945. Unclear is the dates upon which the vehicles were scrapped, but it is thought that the beginning of the construction of the Grille prototypes (128 mm KwK44 L60 or L71 cannon on the Henschel Vk3001 and Vk3002 Chassis) dates from the same time. Certainly the two Grille were completed, one of which saw action against Russian troops near Kharkov, in both 1943 and 1944.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neubaufahrzeug

Panzerknacker
03-04-2007, 05:21 PM
I think that the denomination "Panzer V" was only to propaganda purposes to made believe the british that the german Army had a new heavy tank.

Wolfgang Von Gottberg
03-04-2007, 06:37 PM
Oh ok. Thanks! That makes sense now...

I like most of the tanks in the 1930s...people were still trying to discover new techniquse from WWI and a bunch of new designs floated up.

Panzerknacker
03-27-2007, 09:09 PM
Panzerkampfwagen Skoda T-15.

In the late 1941 the German army was well aware that his standar reconnaissance armored cars and half tracks were no longer competitive in the Battlefield. That fact was particulary true in the Eastern Front place in wich they were exposed to a large quantity of artillery, mines and antitank rifles.

In order to adquire a more capable vehicle the Waffeamt issued a request for a fully tracked recce panzer wich should be capable to reach 40 km/h in cross country and to be armed with at list a 20 mm automatic gun and a MG.

The Skoda steel works, famous czech factory wich also made artillery and tanks, send his own proposal to germany. The projekt was admited and two prototipes manufactured.


T-15 wooden mock-up.

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/6159/t15po1.jpg

The T-15 was roughly similar to the Pz 38 (t) however it was constructed in a more rational manner. It used a completely rolled homogeneus armor wich was put togheter by electric welding. That was a serious improve about the earlier riveted armor, not only because made production faster and stronger assembly but also because it increase the security to the crew when the armor was hit.

http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/4082/skoda11by5.jpg


The armament was comprised of a Kwk 38 (t) (Skoda A7) of 37 mm and 48 calibers in lenght, mounted coaxially a MG 34 panzerlauf was installed. The tank carried 80 rounds for his main gun and 2450 shots of armor piercing 7,92mm bullets for the machinegun.

A Praga V-8 liquid cooled petrol engine deliver 225 hp and with this the 10,7 tons tank could reach 53 km/h max. speed. The overall lenght was 4,9 metres. The armor was formed by 30 mmplates in the front, 25 mm sides and 20 mm rear.

The two T-15 protos were delivered to the Kummersdorf test facilities in may 1942, the vehicle was considered good but the Daimler VK 1303 had better radio equipment and cross country abilities so T-15 was not put in production.

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/2374/skoda22kn1.jpg

cooke24
03-28-2007, 11:56 PM
Im not sure if any of u have seen or heard of the Grille Series of Anti Air and possibly tank destroyers. I think these were a great form of mobile air defense.

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz13.htm

This sweet looking version of the e-100 was being planned. its called the Flakzwilling 8.8cm Auf.E-100.
Dual mounted Flak 88's were installed. Soviets discovered the blueprints in late 1945

heres the link to the page i found it on

http://members.tripod.com/~fingolfen/superheavy/fze100m.html

Panzerknacker
03-29-2007, 10:52 AM
Thanks for the links.



In the latter stages of World War II, Allied air superiority on all fronts severely hampered German forces, especially armor. Aircraft like the Sturmovik, Typhoon, and P-47 wreaked havoc among the Panzer Divisions. With the late-war interest in superheavy panzer like the Maus and E-100 (and one could also include the Tiger II and Jagdtiger in this category), the need for complimentary air defense was clear.


I believe that the 88 mm rate of fire was too slow firing for that task, in order to protect against low flying aircraft the 30-37mm automatic cannons would be better suited. Some like the Kugelblitz panzer that I ve posted in the early pages of this topic.


37 mm Flak 36.

http://www.alderneysociety.org/images/flakGuns.gif

Splinter54
03-29-2007, 12:26 PM
And two more, rockets launchers mounted over Panzer IV and Panther.
Anybody has more informations about that vehicle?
That is quite interresting!! ;)

Panzerknacker
03-29-2007, 08:40 PM
That extract from "German Armored rarities" is all I got.

cooke24
03-29-2007, 08:46 PM
Thanks for the links.





I believe that the 88 mm rate of fire was too slow firing for that task, in order to protect against low flying aircraft the 30-37mm automatic cannons would be better suited. Some like the Kugelblitz panzer that I ve posted in the early pages of this topic.


37 mm Flak 36.

http://www.alderneysociety.org/images/flakGuns.gif




Yea thats true, but also u could use them for AT role but it would of been cool to see a picture of that in action.

Panzerknacker
03-30-2007, 06:05 PM
Cool... yes, practical ?... probably not.


Flakpanzer auf Panzerkampfwagen II Ausf. L

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/4585/33834018vn2.jpg

This strange little vehicle represents Rheinmetall-Borsig's first attempt to mount the 3.7cm FlaK43/1 L/60 on a fully-tracked chassis. The flak 43 was an simplier and improved rate of fire variant of the 37mm flak 36.


http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/2222/65433559fp7.jpg


The Chassis is that of the Panzerkampfwagen II Ausf. L lengthened by two roadwheels. This arrangement was later used successfully on a Panzer IV chassis to create the Ostwind. Pz II 3,7 Flak projeckt did not advanced further than a mockup.

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/9899/87564507xk1.jpg

oriwalter
03-31-2007, 02:05 PM
hello.
I am collecting pitcures (photographs) about rare panzers, example: panzers with ,,holzgas'' engine and recovery vehicles, beute fahrzeuge. when somebody, can help, plz do it!!(oriwalter@gmail.com)
goodbye

cooke24
04-09-2007, 11:40 PM
What was with porsche designing all his late tanks with the turret in the front or the rear?

Panzerknacker
04-10-2007, 08:51 AM
The answer to that is simple, the complicated petrol-electric drive ocuppied nearly halfway of the tank s hull, so there was no room for a mid placed turret.

Note that other designs by Porsche like the Ferdinand /Elefant assault gun share the same characteristic.

http://www.panzer.punkt.pl/artykuly/pz_fabrik/elef_02.jpg

cooke24
04-10-2007, 10:03 PM
Was the petrol-electric drive less reliable compaired to the electric drive in most panzers? You would think there would be less room for ammunition. Am i correct?

Panzerknacker
04-11-2007, 07:16 PM
The normal panzer ( pz I, II, III, IV, Panther) were not equipped with electric drive, they were driven by normal mechanical transmition. the doktor Porsche had some fascination with this system but I think it would be better suited for locomotives.

Ans yes, it need more room and is heavier ( a lot of copper for the electric motors), The Tiger 1 (P) weight 3 tons more than a normal Tiger 1 (H)

Funny, today there is several cars using this hibryd sistem with no problem...of course mister Porsche had not the advantages of an electronic control in his designs.

FW-190 Pilot
04-11-2007, 07:20 PM
Do you think any nations would make any effort to make the tracks stronger? is it really not nessasary to have armour for the tracks?

Panzerknacker
04-11-2007, 07:28 PM
I think the modern tanks s track are strong enough, they are made of manganese-chromium steel, very resilient materiel.

Panzerknacker
04-14-2007, 07:36 PM
Panzerfahre aus Pz IV einbau:


http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/3212/panzerfahrewx0.jpg

Developed in early 1941 by the firms of Klöckner Humboldt Deutz AG, Werk Magirus, Bosanwerft Maybach Zahnradfabik Friedrichshaften, Krupp Gruson and Kässbohrer. The Panzerfahre (Pz.F) was intended to replace the Landwasserschleper (LWS) as a vehicle capable of supply and combat operations on the land and in the water. The first of two units was delivered in May 1942.


http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/1518/dibujoku5.jpg


The overall shape of the vehicle was that of a large, lightly armored, tracked boat, with a propeller located aft, and the running gear from a modified Panzerkampwagen IV. It was of riveted construction and powered by a Maybach HL 120 engine. The Pz. F had an armored protection of 11-13mm plate and it could tow an amphibious trailer, or work in tandem with another Pz. F and a floating platform to ferry loads up to 24 tons. The design never went into production, as the combat weight of tanks increased drastically with the introduction of the Tiger 1, making the Pz. F obsolete.

Amrit
04-14-2007, 07:41 PM
Looks like the LVT-1 "ALLIGATOR"

Panzerknacker
04-15-2007, 06:54 PM
Yea, but without the heavy MGs armament.

Panzerknacker
04-29-2007, 06:29 PM
Munitionspanzer/Waffenträger VK 501:

http://ostpanzer.asty.ru/topics/prototypes/vk-501/i/01.jpg

This 5 tons vehicle was intended to be a very capable ammunition carrier in order to operate near the enemy lines.
It could carry 2000 kg of bullets or tow the same amout in artillery/mortar pieces. The power was provided by a 6 cilinders Maybach liquid cooled engine. the max speed was stimated in 38 km/h

http://ostpanzer.asty.ru/topics/prototypes/vk-501/i/02.jpg


The vehicle used sloped armor of 20mm at front and 12mm in the sides. The armament was a MG 34 pzlf in a ball mounting at the right of the driver.

http://ostpanzer.asty.ru/topics/prototypes/vk-501/i/04.jpg



Rheinmetall made a single mild steel prototype in 1943 in colaboration with a French manufacturer..


http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/2504/pnthammozk8.gif

Panzerknacker
04-30-2007, 07:56 PM
Crazyness on the move...Grotte P-1000 on his way to the front passing a french town.:D :D :D


http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/9727/034jq4.jpg

Panzerknacker
05-02-2007, 08:20 PM
Anti-Aircraft vehicles on Panther chassis. (IV) "Super Cölian" with 5,5 cm Flakzwilling Gerät 58:


http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/7486/perfilcoelian2ln5.jpg



The last attemp to arm a Panther ausf G with a medium caliber automatic weapon was the Flakzwilling 5,5 cm or "Super Cölian"

The 55 mm caliber weapon was an adaptation of the "gerat 58" naval weapon. this automatic cannon shot a 2,2 kilogram shell at 140 rpm .

Gerät 58

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/9805/5520mm20flak20geraet205pk7.jpg

The muzzle speed was 1000 meters per second and the stimated efective ceiling 4500 meters.


The gun mantlets had to be extremely modified to accept the larger guns.

Detail of the turret for 55 mm flak.

http://ruedasycadenas.com/articulos_general_fotos/Art_Coelian_fotos/Coelian_004.jpg


http://ruedasycadenas.com/articulos_general_fotos/Art_Coelian_fotos/Coelian_005.jpg


Finally Albert Speer got completely tired of the slow development of the entire Cölian programme, and stated that this new Panzer had no place in the emergency production plan, the Cölian was cancelled definately in January 1945.

For more about the gun:

http://www.ww2technik.de/sites/dflak/5,5%20cm%20flak.htm

tom!
05-04-2007, 09:46 AM
Hi.

There were two versions of Gerät 58, one designed by Krupp, the other one designed by Rheinmetall-Borsig:

http://www.ww2technik.de/Bilderchen/gerflak/mittel/55%20mm%20flak%20geraet%2058%20kr.jpg
Krupp prototype

Panzerknackers gun is the Rheinmetall prototype VG2 ("Vorführgerät 2", second trial prototype)

As there were slight differences regarding the recoil and counter-recoil mechanisms. So two different turrets had to be designed:

http://www.ww2technik.de/Bilderchen/gerflak/mittel/panther%205,5%20cm%20flak%20twin%20krupp.jpg
with Gerät 58 from Krupp

http://www.ww2technik.de/Bilderchen/gerflak/mittel/panther%205,5%20cm%20flak%20twin%20rheinmetall.jpg
with Gerät 58 from Rheinmetall

Yours

tom! ;)

Panzerknacker
05-04-2007, 09:50 AM
Nice profiles thanks, I think Reinhmetall also try to convert this weapon to aircrafts, if the memory dont fails it was the Mk 114 cannon.

Panzerknacker
05-10-2007, 06:17 PM
Anti-Aircraft vehicles on Panther chassis. (V) 8,8 cm Flak 41/L74 aus Panther Bauteilen

This projekt "with Panther elements" was iniciated in november 1942. Its wasnt a Panther chassis exactly but a more longer one ( 1 meter) and had small changes in final transmition gears.

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/3143/dibujoxd8.jpg

A thin plate of armor cover the gun mounting the and gunners/loaders, there was no top cover since it was fully exposed to the elements.

The Reinhmetall 8,8 Flak 41 was a extremely powerful weapon. It had an initial speed of 1000 meters per second and a stimated effective ceiling of 10700 meters. To improved the vehicle stability when its engaged targets and low elevation four outriggers were provided. These were deployed by a hidraulic means.


Mockup.

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/6167/flak88gh0.jpg


The open turret was fully traversible by hand and its can be elevated from -3 to 86º. The lower elevation allow the use of the Flak 41 as antitank gun.

Mockup at full elevation.

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/262/flak882in3.jpg

The waffeamnt stop the development of this panzer because they correctly feel that to protect an armored formation a fast fire medium caliber gun plataform was needed, and not a mobile heavy flak since this task could be cover with other means like towed guns and armored trains.

Panzerknacker
05-19-2007, 12:30 PM
Just in case that you havent enough pictures of the Grotte P-1000 ratte


http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/64/ratte2or8.jpg

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/1705/ratte11111jv7.jpg

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/1425/11609638au4.jpg


http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/2882/dibujott1.jpg

Panzerknacker
05-30-2007, 06:40 PM
Bergepanzer Tiger(P)

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/2568/bergeelefanthv4.jpg

A total of three Bergepanzer Tiger(P) were constructed in September 1943 by Nibelungwerke. The basic chassis and suspension of the Tiger(P) was unchanged, but the engines ( petrol-electric) were mounted in the center and a superstructure was added to the rear (similar to the Ferdinand/Elefant). The only armament was one 7.92mm MG34 mounted in the rear superstructure. No special recovery equipment was added aside from a small derrick crane, rams, and timber beams.

Panzerknacker
06-01-2007, 10:04 AM
More images of the Bergetiger Porsche:

http://www.panzernet.net/panzernet/fotky/stihace/elefant/065.jpg






Bergetiger - P Panzerjäger Abteilung 653. Ukrania. November 1943

Panzerknacker
06-21-2007, 08:10 PM
This is a rarity for sure, improvisated artillery bunker build up over Panzer III chasis.

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/1852/ftfxg7.jpg

Panzerknacker
07-05-2007, 07:08 PM
as the panther chassis being fairly reliable and the couple of the Panzer IV being not that heavy as the panteher one so it could even reach a higher speed an would prform better than a normal Panther in cros-country

Probably, but the 75 mm gun would have some trouble facing the russians heavies.

But definately a good looking tank, and probably more fast than the Panther.

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/4336/6xsxmutz4ow7.jpg

Panzerknacker
08-11-2007, 02:47 PM
Two more images of the Porsche Typ 100 panzer know also as "VK 30.01 Leopard" in test grounds.

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/9682/84381462zl4.jpg

Panzerknacker
08-14-2007, 06:46 PM
Munitionspanzer with MK-103.

A very rare improvisated "flakpanzer" , a munitionspanzer with a 30mm Rheinmetall MK 103 automatic gun.

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/8396/1945wrecks9fc1.jpg

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/2129/cafvs01jk7.jpg

awack
08-15-2007, 01:48 PM
Wow, correct me if im wrong but if i remember right the Rheinmetall MK 103 had a rate of fire of 550 or 560 rpm.

Panzerknacker
08-15-2007, 06:06 PM
Actually it had a rate of 360 to 420 rounds per minute.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4127&page=5

Panzerknacker
08-15-2007, 07:43 PM
Profiles of the Leopard medium tank armed with the Krupp 8,8 cm Kwk 36 turret. Another proposed armament was the 75mm L/48 and a 105 L/34

http://i15.tinypic.com/6agujp3.jpg

http://i12.tinypic.com/6as09xt.jpg

Top view.

http://i13.tinypic.com/6d0jal3.jpg

Panzerknacker
08-18-2007, 07:47 PM
Durchbruchwagen

One of the most unknown projekts of the german army were the early attemps to create a heavy tank ( heavy for the mid 1930s standar that is)

In late January of 1937, Waffenamt ordered Henschel und Sohn of Kassel to design and produce prototype of heavy 30-ton class tank. Designated as Durchbruchwagen (Breakthrough Tank), it was to be Germany's first heavy tank intended to breakthrough enemy defense lines.

Prototype of DW I was produced by Henschel and was protected by 50mm thick armor. The running gear consisted of five road-wheels supported by torsion bars.and three return rollers. Waffenamt put Krupp in charge of the production of the turret and its armament. Krupp decided to produce the turret similar to that of Panzer IV and armed with the same 75mm KwK 37 L/24 gun. Only one test hull was produced in late 1937, but its turret was never manufactured. At the time of the development of DW I, Waffenamt ordered Henschel to design and produce prototype of never heavy 30-ton class tank.

Designated as DW II, it was an improved and modified version of previous DW I. Both, DW I (30000kg) and DW II (33000kg) were powered by Maybach HL 120 engine (280hp) allowing it to travel at the top speed of 35km/h. As well as DW I, only one prototype was built in 1938 and once again its turret was never manufactured. It was also planned to use PzKpfw IV Ausf C turret on DW II. In late 1938, DW project was cancelled and on September 9 of 1938, VK3001(H) project started. Both DW I and DW II were extensively tested until 1941 and provided Henschel with valuable experience used in the development of VK3001(H) tank and other future designs.

Durbruchwagen (with Panzer IV ausf C. turret)

http://i19.tinypic.com/4y88ys7.jpg

Panzerknacker
09-07-2007, 09:57 AM
E-series profiles.

More images of the E-series panzers. (for more info look at the page 1 to 3 in this topic)


E-50 replacement for the Panther.

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/358/e50ahl4.jpg



http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/1180/e50blk2.jpg



E-100, alternative prototype for a design to deal with the ultra heavy panzer specifications of the maus.

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/4141/e100do5.jpg


http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/9569/paperpanzerdm9.jpg

Panzerknacker
09-24-2007, 06:51 PM
Henschel VK 30.01.

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/811/vk02jm7.jpg

On September 9 of 1938, Henschel received the permission to continue their work on new medium tank in continuation with DW (http://www.achtungpanzer.com/sw.htm#dw) development. Work on VK3001(H), which was further development of DW II (http://www.achtungpanzer.com/sw.htm#dw), started. Two similar designs were created, lighter (32 tons) VK3001(H) and later on heavier (40 tons) VK3601(H). Both resembled Panzerkampfwagen IV (http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz3.htm) in their hull design but their running gear was of a new design that consisted of overlapping road wheels. Medium VK3001(H) tank and heavy VK3601(H) tank had many common parts what would make their production and service much more easier.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/4149/vk01kz8.jpg

Only four VK3001(H) prototypes were produced, two in March of 1941 and other two in October of 1941. All were completed in 1942 by Henschel. In the early 1942, one prototype VK3601(H) was build along with 5 prototype chassis. Originally, it was intended to mount VK3001(H) with a turret armed 75mm L/24 or 105mm L/28 gunm but none of the prototypes were actually fitted with turrets. VK3601(H) was to be armed with 75mm KwK 42 L/70 (Gerat 725), 88mm KwK 36 L/56 (mounted in VK4501(P) (http://www.achtungpanzer.com/tigerp.htm) turret) or 105mm L/20 or L/28 gun, but just as VK3001(H), it was never armed with any weapons.

VK 30.01 turret in defensive emplacement.

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/8076/vk06bm0.jpg


www.achtungpanzer.com

DW to Tiger I, Jentz/Doyle.

Panzerknacker
10-18-2007, 06:45 PM
Aditional images of german protos.

"Sturer Emil" 128 mm panzerjager.

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/6172/fooks4.jpg



"****ermax" 105 mm self propelled gun.

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1851/acopy1iz8.jpg


http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/9939/105cmk18aufpanzerselbstbg9.jpg

Splinter54
12-13-2007, 05:57 AM
Again some sort of E-79 ^^

Stu.Kan.auf Pz.Kpfw.38(t)

http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/german/images/stukanaufpzkpfw38taj_6.jpg

http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/german/images/stukanaufpzkpfw38taj_1.jpg

http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/german/images/stukanaufpzkpfw38taj_4.jpg


Only two of these odd little vehicles ever got up and running. It was not a successful design and never went into production.

Source: http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/german/stukanaufpzkpfw38taj_1.html

Panzerknacker
12-13-2007, 08:00 AM
I Going to check but i believe this this is a modellers fake. :)

Some like this falsificated picture of a rammtiger.

awack
12-16-2007, 10:03 PM
The 128 mm gun on the Sturer Emil scares me :shock:

Panzerknacker
12-16-2007, 11:12 PM
If you wasa russian tanker in 1941 and sawthis vehicle probably that make you even more scared :rolleyes:

Most of the tanks of that time had only 40 or 50, maybe 75mm guns in the best ones.

Sturer Emil in Kubinka Museum.

Schwerpunkt
12-20-2007, 04:19 PM
Herr Major,
I have just registered on this site and want to thank you for the astounding amount of information you have provided on German Panzer projects. While many could be interpreted as perhaps ludicrous, I find them fascinating and have several of them (Maus, E100, Flak Panther Coelion) in 1/285 scale. I have often urged the model makers to produce the E75 and E-50, the US T-18, and British Tortoise super heavy tanks.
If all of these tanks had been in production, no bridges in Europe would have been intact and no one could move.
Schwerpunkt

Panzerknacker
12-20-2007, 05:18 PM
Thanks for your post Schwerpunkt.

The brigde issues are not definately an impediment when there was people willing to deploy heavy Panzers, just remeber that until 1940 the germans have an 30 tons top limit for their tank design...and that were quickly lifted when they faced improved heavy armour. Noted one thing, with the exception of some railway bridges there was almost no brigde in the 1930s that could withstand the 47 tons weight of the KV-1 or KV-2 in the entire Soviet Union, however that does not cause stopped its development/production.

In all I am pretty much convinced that the bridge question even a recurrent matter is completely overrated.

Schwerpunkt
12-21-2007, 09:23 AM
I agree with you about the issue of bridges being over rated. Of course, the snorkel Maus might have been problematic especially with power being fed by a Maus on the ground.
While Maus possessed much better protection, the E-100 might have been a better way to go because she was over three times as fast and carried just as large an armament. Now, to the heart of my question. Many point out that the extremely large Maus and E-100 designs (and the even larger P1000 and P1500) were intended to be mobile pill boxes along the West Wall, offering additional resistance where needed.
Of course, they would have been very vulnerable to Allied air power but by moving at night into prepared positions, I think they could have been most useful. They would have been absolutely useless at Calais, however (LOL).
It is also my understanding the a twin 8.8cm flak version of the Maus/E-100 was under consideration and that the flak Panther platoons would each have one vehicle without turret but with a fire control director.
As perhaps you can tell, I am fascinated with these weapons (as well as the German aircraft designs). There are tremendous arguments over on the German A/C pages about how useful or effective these designs were. Again, I must side with German technology. Although much too late to affect the outcome of the war, their studies and designs were far in advance of those of the Allies. Schwerpunkt:)

Schwerpunkt
12-21-2007, 10:43 AM
Panzerknacker,
I am sure this moving house with guns was a Kriegsmarine effort. I have a color shot of it as a model which I obtained several years ago. It seems you keep coming up with more unusual German efforts for defensive success against overwhelming odds on the ground (and in the air). Sea efforts were not as spectacular although the Type XXI sub and the V2 towed launch vehicle could have done some real damage.
Thanks for all of your efforts.
Schwerepunkt

Schwerpunkt
12-23-2007, 12:25 PM
I am afraid I cannot locate the file in which my photo is located. I will keep trying to find it. The K5 was a vicious beast and was quite accurate. The Germans did an outstanding job of keeping her hidden.
Keep up the great work.
Bob/Schwerpunkt

Schwerpunkt
01-01-2008, 09:32 PM
This, too would have been a formidable SP weapon for the Heere in the last stages of the war. The best benefit of the "Grille" series for E25 though E50, E75 and E100 would have been uniformity of parts, hull design, suspension and the like. There were several Flak 88 designs for the Grille series, one with a shield and sides and rear protection which dropped to the side to provide more room for the crew.
These weapons, while impractical at the time, are still fascinating. I hope there are as many of these projects as the Germans had super aircraft because we would then have many to discover.
Thank you for all of your research.
Schwerepunk

Schwerpunkt
01-04-2008, 08:01 AM
I have to wonder if there were jacks underneath the gun mount which could be used to lower the mount to the ground. Otherwise, a crane would have to accompany each vehicle to dismount the gun from the Tiger carriage.
Beautiful work. These weapons are immensely interesting.

Major Walter Schmidt
01-05-2008, 12:08 PM
Does anyone know which divisions panzers like the maus, E100 and other "projects" were planned to be placed? Also, Im curious about camo.

Major Walter Schmidt
01-05-2008, 01:00 PM
The open top idea seems, to me very vulnerable to fighter-bomber and dive bombers.

Major Walter Schmidt
01-05-2008, 01:03 PM
awsome maus pics!
http://news.webshots.com/album/338373567tFqDcx
http://news.webshots.com/album/550277193oyITjc

Schwerpunkt
01-06-2008, 06:36 AM
Most SP artillery had open tops so the Grille 17cm would be no more so than any US SP such as the 8inch or the 155mm. Had the Germans possessed air cover, we might not be talking in such negative terms about some of these German weapons. Of course, they did not have such cover and some of these ideas are just plain impractical. But they are very interesting. Bob/Schwerpunkt

Panzerknacker
01-06-2008, 08:01 AM
--The open top idea seems, to me very vulnerable to fighter-bomber and dive bombers--This open vehicles were not planned to be deployed in the frontline so in that case the disadvantages are not that important, however you dont need a divebomber, simple a hand grenade and that is it.

Schwerpunkt
01-06-2008, 03:21 PM
I would think that such guns would have infantry protection (Panzer Grenadiers) but the Ferdinands had none at Kursk so go figure. A closed mount could not take the 17cm piece IMHO although I believe one could enclose a 15cm gun. Certainly, modern armor includes SP 155 enclosed guns such as the Paladin.

Panzerknacker
01-06-2008, 08:02 PM
The Ferdinands were used in direct support, the Geschutzwagen tiger is a self propelled artillery, in that way it never would be deployed in frontline, but use his long range gun to "soften" targets before the attack.

Schwerpunkt
01-08-2008, 02:48 PM
I think VK7001 Lion would have been a very workable and powerful tank. IMHO it would have perhaps the most powerful gun mounted on an armoured vehicle in the world, the 105mm/70 with very high muzzle velocity. This design would have been faster than Maus and more versatile. Instead of a slow moving pillbox, this tank would have been able to manouver on terms equal to most heavy battle tanks.
Excellent work again.

IRISH TIGER
01-08-2008, 05:03 PM
sorry about the cap,s. Y is the hull have a bend just were the engine is, or has the hull been lengthen for the bigger engine?

Schwerpunkt
01-08-2008, 05:14 PM
I think the turret is actually more efficient than that of most modern tanks. The body of the vehicle shows it's Tiger origins but the inclined and very thick frontal armor would have made her a tough nut to crack. She is a beautiful beast and is very similar in appearance of the ISII which had a much lower silhouette.
Schwerepunkt

IRISH TIGER
01-08-2008, 06:39 PM
i would say all russian tanks would rise their hats to this beast when meeting it for the first time:mrgreen:

Panzerknacker
01-08-2008, 07:02 PM
or has the hull been lengthen for the bigger engine

It does, teorically a derated aviation engine Db-601

Versuchsflakwagen 8,8cm flak 37/41

Between the several attaemps to create a stadarizated antiaircraft panzer using components already in production was the Versuchsflakwagen (experimental antiaircraft vehicle) of 1942.
This used Pz III/IV chassis , Pz II transmition, and SD.Kfz 9 havy tractor wheels and suspension.

VFW Flak 37.

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/6411/88f37fs3.jpg




3 prototypes were made, the early ones armed with the Flak 37, a variant of the well know weapon of Krupp specially designed to AAA role ( no antitank use here), the kanoniere (gun crew) was protected by a thin ( 8mm) shield wich could be lowered to allow full traverse of the cannon in low elevation.

In 1944, they were rearmed with 88mm Flak 41 guns and designated as - Versuchsflakwagen fur 8.8cm Flak 41. The 74 calibres lenght Flak 41 was a very powerful Reinhmetall Borsig gun wich used a larger capacity case to achieve bigger muzzle velocity ( 1000 meters per second) and a higher ceiling ( 9500 max effective)

VFW flak 41.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/3152/vfw2zc0.jpg

Single example rearmed again with 88mm Flak 37 was sent for tests to Italy, where served with Heeres Flakartillerie Abteilung (Sf.) 304 with was assigned to the 26th Panzer Division.

A single Flak 41 VFW was used agaist the allied bomber that attacked the factory Krupp in Essen

VFW Flak 41 characteristics:

Armor: 25- 8 mm

Engine : maybach 6 cil. 265 hp

Speed: 38 km/h ( road)

Armament Flak 41 88mm with 40 rounds, 2 MP-40 with 364 rounds 9mm.

Traverse: 360º manual, elevation 90º to -2º.

Lenght: 7,1 meters ( gun 12 o clock)

Weight: 28300 kg.


Flak 41 in full elevation

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/3941/vfw1nq7.jpg

Splinter54
01-10-2008, 11:58 AM
Mr. Panzerknacker posted a picture of that tank before somewhere.
It shows a modified Munitionspanzer 38t with Jabo-Schreck in Prag (Prague?) 1945
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/9272/prag45munflakpanzer38txi8.th.jpg (http://img165.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prag45munflakpanzer38txi8.jpg)

Panzerknacker
01-10-2008, 04:33 PM
Nice weapon the Mk 103 for low level aircrafts, I wonder why mas not used more often.

Splinter54
01-11-2008, 06:00 AM
You know, why i like the new Bundeswehr PUMA Schützenpanzer?
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/9341/puma9uw2fo0.th.jpg (http://img529.imageshack.us/my.php?image=puma9uw2fo0.jpg)

Somehow it looks like the old BÜFFEL concept - not the bridge layer, the really old conceptual one ^^
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/733/bffelpanther2anzt7nr2.th.jpg (http://img529.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bffelpanther2anzt7nr2.jpg)

Digger
01-12-2008, 01:03 AM
Nice weapon the Mk 103 for low level aircrafts, I wonder why mas not used more often.

Inadequate firepower was often cited for vehicles of this type, particuarly the SdKfz 140 Flakpanzer 38t ausf M.

digger

Splinter54
01-12-2008, 08:30 AM
Nice, first time I ever seen the Buffel.


Btw. the Büffel concept used the Mk 103 as main gun in its turret.



It remember me in some way to other modern looking Panzer that never was. the Leopard.

Just by the way, because you mentioned the Leopard - i once had some materials concerning the Leo 1 Prototypes - some also showed a tank with a Rheinmetall 128mm gun which pretty much looked like the KwK 44 (expecially because of the pretty 1:1 Mündungsbremse).
Also the statistics seemed to be pretty similar somehow :S

Old concepts never die? :rolleyes:

Panzerknacker
01-12-2008, 04:37 PM
Inadequate firepower was often cited for vehicles of this type, particuarly the SdKfz 140 Flakpanzer 38t ausf M.



Yeap but that vehicle used a 20 mm weapon, not the MK 103. The mk 103 performances were far superio to the ones of the 2cm flak 38.


Btw. the Büffel concept used the Mk 103 as main gun in its turret.


Like mosty of the modern IFVs. :cool:

snebold
01-27-2008, 04:32 PM
Hello everybody. The Buffel project looks amazingly modern, it´s hard to invent something that somebody didn´t think of before May 1945! It seems to be good looking too. Anybody having pic´s of models?

I´m really fascinated by those rare pictures of panzers hanging from factory ceilings. Does anybody here have any "hanging panzer" (in fact any hanging armour) pictures they´d like to share?

Schwerpunkt
02-26-2008, 11:41 AM
This might not be the place, but I was wondering if you, Panzerknacker or any one could provide me with a list of maximum ranges of the differing weapons used by the Panzertruppen and schwere artillerie of the Heer during the war: for example, the 17cm and 21cm morser, the panzer 15cm to be used on Maus, the 12.8cm of the Jagdtiger, the 8.8cm of the PzKw VIb, etc.
I don't want the ranges at which they would penetrate armor, I need the maximum ranges that these guns could achieve at maximum elevation.
Any help would be appreciated.
Schwerepunkt

Panzerknacker
02-27-2008, 04:19 PM
The most "findable" and cheap source that comes to my mind is Encyclopedia of Weapons of WW2 of the Barnes Noble publisher, somewhat basic but in that book you ll find out the info you need.If you have some trouble finding the book send me a PM and I ll give you a hand.

gumalangi
02-28-2008, 12:22 AM
what a long and very very interesting thread here,.. very very informative and well explained,.. thanks to Panzerknacker,..

Panzerknacker
02-28-2008, 08:27 AM
Thanks man, all my topics had the tendency to be in that way. :)

Another pic of the Alkett Heuschrecke. It was captured in Holland.

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/7897/rheinheuqn1.jpg

gumalangi
02-28-2008, 09:13 AM
Hey PzKnckr, seems as for the Wehrmacht, it was the right product were chosen over the bad one,... as it was not happened to the Luftwaffe,.. dont you think?

as it was mentioned many times by the Germans army/ss vets,. they were beaten by the Airforce,.. as Luftwaffe lost long time before the war ends,.

Schwerpunkt
02-28-2008, 10:47 AM
The waffenamt had just as many ludicrous projects as the Luftwaffe, for example, the waste of effort on the MAUS and other supertanks. The Thor Morser and the Dora huge railroad gun were also complete wastes of manpower and resources.
Thank you Panzerknacker for the info on ranges of German tank guns and artillery.
I was wondering what the caliber (both barrel and length) of the Gescheutzwagen Lowe would have been: 105mm/70 or better? My 1/285 collection includes many German panzer projects, the E-100, the MAUS, the Panther II (F/G model with 88/71) the Kugelblitz. I am trying to get them to produce the twin 88 flak panzer (either MAUS or E-100).
:shock::):)

PS: The German Army was the Heer: the Wehrmacht was all three German services: Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine

Panzerknacker
02-28-2008, 04:14 PM
Hey PzKnckr, seems as for the Wehrmacht, it was the right product were chosen over the bad one,... as it was not happened to the Luftwaffe,.. dont you think?

as it was mentioned many times by the Germans army/ss vets,. they were beaten by the Airforce,.. as Luftwaffe lost long time before the war ends,.


Hey man, dont deformate my nick, by the way, sorry but I dont quite understand your question.


Thank you Panzerknacker for the info on ranges of German tank guns and artillery.
I was wondering what the caliber (both barrel and length) of the Gescheutzwagen Lowe would have been: 105mm/70 or better? My 1/285 collection includes many German panzer projects, the E-100, the MAUS, the Panther II (F/G model with 88/71) the Kugelblitz. I am trying to get them to produce the twin 88 flak panzer (either MAUS or E-100).

70 calibres for a 105 mm gun ? dont think so the longer barrel i ve seen is a 54 calibres, an even that seems too much for a panzer armament.

Schwerpunkt
02-28-2008, 05:52 PM
Well, if an 88mm can be 71 calibers in length, why not a 105mm? It just seems to me the barrel is extremely long. But I must defer to your judgement on this matter.
I think if the Germans could build an 800mm/31.5 caliber artillery piece, why not a 105mm/70? The carriage was a Pzkw VI B extended.
Anyway, thanks again for all of the info you supply this forum.

Panzerknacker
02-28-2008, 06:15 PM
Is not practical for panzers, if is for a fixed emplacement of railway artillery would be okay ( even probably would need some kind of structure above it)

A 70 calibres gun would be the same long ( a little more actually) of a panther with a L/101 gun, you can imagine that ?

The gun would bend due its own weight, the maneouvrability would be extremely restricted ( gun hitting everything on turns).

The german made a 156 calibres gun in WW1 but actually those was 2 in one and with a hefty support of it for limitated the "wip effect" when shooting and to prevent the barrel bending like a fishing rod by the enourmous weight.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/9/93/300px-Paris_Gun.jpg

HG
02-29-2008, 03:28 AM
Panzerknacker do you know anything about the Thor track mounted artillery?