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Firefly
01-25-2006, 05:20 AM
OK.

I thought we could maybe start at the beginning and work our way through the conflict.

'Argentina has long claimed South Georgia not so much in its own right, but as a dependency of the Falklands. The opportunity to exercise this claim is provided by Argentine businessman Constantino Davidoff, who contracts with the Scottish company of Christian Salvesen to clear away scrap whaling material littering parts of the island. '

Any thoughts or comments on the South Georgian Assault (http://www.naval-history.net/F14sgeorgia.htm)

I intend to use this source to start debates as I find it covers the sequence of events quite well. I apologise to the Argentineans here but my Spanish isn't very good! Feel free to post your own sources to counter any of this that you may disagree with.

Eagle
01-26-2006, 01:35 PM
Fire, the claims of Argentina over the Georgias and Sandwich islands are that they are a continuation of the Andes Range, that immerse itself into the sea and then ascend over the South Atlantic Ocean.
As all the treaties signed by the only two countries who have sovereignty over the South Andes Range, Argentina and Chile, and accepted this treaties by the United Nations, it said that all the territories of the South Andes Range that immerse over the waters and re-ascend over the Pacific Ocean would be chilean territories, and all that immerse over water and re-ascend over the Atlantic Ocean would be Argentine territories.
That's why the argentine claim, not only the "nearness right"...







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According to the Argentine taking to the Georgias, all started on February when Constantino Davidoff, an argentine businessman signed a contract with the enterprise Salvensen, from Edimburgh to dismantle some buildings from Pt Leith, one of the two most important establishments at the Georgias.

http://www.btinternet.com/~sa_sa/south_georgia/images/LeithHarbour.jpg
Pt Leith, Georgias islands

The businessman decided to contract the cheapest enterprise to get a ship for transport its workers, and the cheapest was the Argentine Navy, which offered the transport ARA Bahía Buen Suceso. They arrived on March 19th, and some british people who was living in Pt Leith denounced to the Malvinas islands government that an argentine flag was fluttering over Pt Leith, possibly the group of workers had hoisted up it.
But that british people denounced to that the workers were really argentine marines who had taken the port. That information is false, and only the wanted to expel the argentine workers. They were 39 in total, all civilian.

http://www.histarmar.com.ar/Armada%20Argentina/TransportesNavales/Fotos/hist33MED.jpg
Transport ARA Bahía Buen Suceso, Argentine Navy

In the capital of the Malvinas islands, called yet as Pt Stanley, the requests of help were listened and the polar ship of the Royal Navy HMS Endurance, with 22 Royal Marines, and arrived to Pt Grytviken on March 24th.

http://www.hrvatski-vojnik.hr/hrvatski-vojnik/0062004/bpictures/kndurance%201982.jpg
Polar Ship HMS Endurance, Royal Navy

As the argentine inteligence service said, the Endurance was arriving to the Georgias, so the government ordered to the polar ship ARA Bahia Paraiso to find and intercept the british ship, and defend the workers if it was necessary, with a group of 40 argentine marines.

http://www.histarmar.com.ar/Armada%20Argentina/Buques1900a1970/BPolares/BahiaParaiso/00123CL%20BAHIA%20PARAISO%20B1x400.jpg
Polar ship ARA Bahía Paraíso, Argentine Navy

On March 31th, the british government made official the mobilization of nuclear submarines to the south, so the Argentine government, that had plans to recover the South Atlantic Archipelagos, decided to acelerate its plans on the south atlantic ocean.

With the surrender of Pt Stanley, becoming Pto Argentino, the argentine corvette ARA Guerrico, was sent to the Georgias with the order of reinforce the group formed by the Bahía Paraíso, keep on argentine hands Pt Leith, and remove the british presence on Pt Grytviken.

http://www.ara.mil.ar/La_Armada/MediosyCapacidades/Flota_de_Mar/Imagenes/Corbeta%20%5BGuerrico%5D.JPG
Corvette ARA Guerrico, Argentine Navy


At the noon of April 3rd the corvette met the argentine polar ship Bahía Paraíso, that was following to the polar ship Endurance.
The mission of taking had started. From the ARA Bahía Paraíso, an assault and attack helicopter Aerospatiale SA-316 Allouette III took off, and followed by the argentine corvette, it penetrated itself into the inlet where was settled Pt Grytviken.
While that happened, the helicopter as the corvette started to warn to the defenders by loud speakers that a defence of the village would be a lost of materials, time and possibly, lives, asking a surrender.

http://oconnor.gs/grytviken.jpg
Pt Grytviken, Georgias Islands

At that time, when the ARA Guerrico penetrated itself into the inlet, its crew identified a group of Royal Marines taking positions near the hospital of the village. So the heavy Helicopter SA-330 Puma from the Army based on the polar ship Bahía Paraíso started with the landing, leaving them over the water, who had to jump to the seaside to take positions later, and the Puma returned to the argentine ships to land the second wave of argentine marines.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/falklands/images/sgleith.jpg
The ARA Bahía Paraíso and the ARA Guerrico, prepared to launch the mission at the Georgias islands

Until that moment there wasn’t any combat between the forces in Georgias, but the SA-330 returned from the argentine ships and boarded 15 more men and when the Puma tried to land them on the island, it met itself over the group of british defenders, that were using a machine gun and joint light firing, touched the Puma fifty times or more. The Puma was out of control and the pilot could make an emergency landing, where the helicopter landed and overturned over his left side. Two argentine marines had been dead into the helicopter.

At the time that the Puma was down, the group of 15 argentine marines started the attack alone, only with their automatic rifles, and an enraged battle started, while the SA-316 Allouette landed next to the Puma to transport the wounded and dead soldiers to the polar ship Bahía Paraíso, and then reinforce the group of argentine marines attacking.

http://www.bichosverdes.org/Alouette1.JPG
Assault and attack helicopter Aerospatiale SA-316 Allouette III, Argentine Navy

In the middle of the battle, the ARA Guerrico take positions and started to support the fire of the argentine marines, using it heavy weapons of 20mm and 40mm launching one shot and six shots respectively. Machine guns installed on it superstructure were used too.
But as the Guerrico attacked, it was attacked too. The corvette suffered the impact of 200 bullets and an a rocket, manually launched.

A few minutes later the crew and the survivors of the Puma helicopter were enabled to join to the group of argentine marine attackers, in order to reinforce the front line, at the same time that the Alouette helicopter landed personal with mortars to support the argentine advance.

The ARA Guerrico reached the coast and landed several machine guns seconds later.
When that happened, the argentine marines started to see the white flags fluttering over the defenders, and then, a british officer presented himself to the argentine forces, capitulating the hostilities. He expressed that his mission was successful, because as he say, the order was to force the argentine forces to act with belligerency and if it would be possible, to have damages on british people.

A solitary Wasp helicopter, that was sent from the Endurance before the start of the battle, could see all the argentine movements and then it escaped between the icebergs and mountains, to land again over the HMS Endurance.

The prisoners were settled on the ARA Bahía Paraíso, and then a group of provisions and supplies were landed to the group of argentine marines who had to stay in the Georgias.

pdf27
01-26-2006, 02:48 PM
Fire, the claims of Argentina over the Georgias and Sandwich islands are that they are a continuation of the Andes Range, that immerse itself into the sea and then ascend over the South Atlantic Ocean.
As all the treaties signed by the only two countries who have sovereignty over the South Andes Range, Argentina and Chile, and accepted this treaties by the United Nations, it said that all the territories of the South Andes Range that immerse over the waters and re-ascend over the Pacific Ocean would be chilean territories, and all that immerse over water and re-ascend over the Atlantic Ocean would be Argentine territories.
That's why the argentine claim, not only the "nearness right"...
Does the UN specifically accept that the treaties extent beyond Tierra Del Fuego? If not, that sounds rather like the Pope dividing up the world between the Spanish and Portugese...

Eagle
01-26-2006, 05:53 PM
Do you think it?

I'm sorry but I disagree, that territories were argentine possesions or chilean possesions, and all the world, including the United Nations knows that, the problem was what possesion was argentine and what was chilean, not a third state as the United Kingdom.

Although the United Nations didn't make the treaty, it was aproved and accepted by that organization.


In the ages of the Tordesillas treaty there could be a lot of states with similar rights than Portugal or Spain, they wanted all the world practically... that didn't happened with the limits treaties between Argentina and Chile, they were disputing territories that all the world knew that territories were or argentine or chilean...

pdf27
01-26-2006, 06:38 PM
that didn't happened with the limits treaties between Argentina and Chile, they were disputing territories that all the world knew that territories were or argentine or chilean...
I rather doubt that in either case what the rest of the world thought was considered when signing the treaty. Besides, that interpretation would presumably include large chunks of Antarctica as sovereign territory - when it is generally accepted as free from government.

Eagle
01-27-2006, 06:46 PM
No mate, Argentina and Chile accept and are part from the Antarctic treaty, the treaties of territories on dispute, signed at the beginings of the XX century talks about antarctic territories, but when the Antarctic treaty was signed that parts claimed by Argentina and Chile were subordinated and anuled.

1000ydstare
01-27-2006, 06:51 PM
Anyway....

If I remember correctly, the Argies who took South Georgia were stunned to find so few Brit defenders, in light of the damage they had sustained and fierceness of the defence.

They treated the captured Royal Marines very well.

The Royal Marines also diffused at least one IED that was mounted on the jetty. Which they didn't have to do, but did.

Eagle
01-30-2006, 02:13 PM
Yes. The same did a lot of argentine prisoners after the surrender, who dissactived several mine fields.

Man of Stoat
01-30-2006, 04:37 PM
Yes. The same did a lot of argentine prisoners after the surrender, who dissactived several mine fields.

There's plenty of unmarked minefields they didn't deactivate though...

Firefly
01-31-2006, 03:45 AM
After having been there, I would say there are plenty of marked minefirelds as there is no restrictions on walking anywhere in the Islands.

Man of Stoat
01-31-2006, 05:51 AM
After having been there, I would say there are plenty of marked minefirelds as there is no restrictions on walking anywhere in the Islands.

But did we mark them after the conflict, or did the Argentines do it like they were supposed to?

Firefly
01-31-2006, 06:58 AM
Yes you are right, we marked them, sorry but your original statement implied that there were mines other than in marked minefields. Which occassionally can be the case, as they are not static and can be moved about by the water etc.