Hans U. Rudel, the flying Hero. [Archive]

Panzerknacker

01-19-2006, 10:17 AM

http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/4587/rudelhansulrich6qx.jpg

Hans-Ulrich Rudel (July 2, 1916 - December 18, 1982) was a highly decorated German Stuka dive-bomber pilot during World War II.
Rudel was born to a Protestant minister in Konradswaldau (Silesia), Germany (Polish after 1945). After a limited education, he joined the German Luftwaffe in 1936 as an officer cadet. He was initially only trained as a reconnaissance observer pilot, primarily because of his poor educational background.

After passing his flying training course and becoming a pilot, Hans Rudel applied for further training in the technique of the dive-bombing but was turned down. Instead, he received reconnaissance observer's training and flew long range reconnaissance missions during Polish Campaign in September of 1939 as a Lieutenant. On October 11th of 1939, Rudel was awarded Iron Cross 2nd Class.At the same, Rudel continued applying for Ju-87 Stuka (Sturzkampfflugzeug - dive bomber)training course and was finally admitted in May of 1940. After the completion of the course, Oberleutnant Rudel was posted to Stuka Training Wing near Stuttgart, where he spent the French Campaign.

Afterwards, Rudel was transferred to 1st Staffel (1st Squadron) of Stukageschwader 2 (Dive-Bomber Group 2) and took part in the airborne invasion of Crete in May of 1941, although not in the battle zone. In preparations for the Operation Barbarossa, Rudel's Group was transferred to the Eastern Front and on June 23rd of 1941 at 3:00am flew his first combat dive-bombing mission. During next 18 hours, he flew total four combat missions. His piloting skills earned the Iron Cross First Class on July 18, 1941.

Between the 21 and 23 of September he participate in several attacks against the red fleet anchored in the Kronstad harbuor outside Leningrad. He shared the credit in damaging the cruiser Kirov and sinking a russian destroyer.

The 23 of septembre several stukas attacked the battleship Marat of 23000 tons.

http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/photos/sj/bb_marat.jpg

The stukas achieved some direct and near misses but failed to cause several damage. Rudel nosedived his plane armed with a single 1000 kg SC-1000 fragmentation bomb, the SC penetrate in the one of the funnels and explodes breacking the ship in a half.

http://www.steelnavy.com/images/OS%20Sevastopol/Sev0720afterexp.JPG

- "We've got her ... you must have hit her ammunition store...She is blowing up !" (Rudel's rear gunner Scharnovski over the intercom)."

The 12th of january of 1942 after flew his 500th combat mission he received the Ritterkreuz.

http://www.theneworder.org/gfx/rudelthen.gif

He spend some time in the Stuka Schule in Austria but after beging for it he retuner at combat duties.

September of 1942, Rudel received the command of the 1st Staffel of the 1st Wing of Stukageschwader 2 (1StG2), while operating in the Stalingrad area. At that time, his squadron was often sent to attack Soviet tank units, when inadequacy of bombs against tanks was realized.

http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Stuka/Rudel/ju87_1.jpg

Panzerknacker

01-19-2006, 10:41 AM

On February 10th of 1943, Hans Rudel flew his 1000th mission and became a national hero to the German public.

some achievements.

http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Stuka/Rudel/1000_5.jpg

http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Stuka/Rudel/1000_1.jpg
http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Stuka/Rudel/1000_2.jpg
http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Stuka/Rudel/1000_3.jpg
http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Stuka/Rudel/1000_4.jpg

In the early year H.U.R performed several combat duties against the soviet forces wich were roundins Stalingrad and expressed the frustration of this missions his diary.

Rudel was then posted to the new special "Panzerjagdkommando Weiss" unit formed at Briansk to test newly developed tank-busting version of Ju-87 D-3. Modified Stuka armed with two Rheinmetall-Borsig 37mm (BK) Flak 18 guns (each mounted in special canopy under each wing with 6 rounds of ammunition) was developed at the Luftwaffe's experimental station at Rechlin (near Neustrelitz, Germany). Prototypes were used at first against Soviet landing crafts in the Black Sea and in the space of three weeks, Rudel destroyed 70 such boats in March of 1943.

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/ju87g-5.jpg

But the primary goal of the new Ju-87 was defeating the increased russian tank armada, In March of 1943, during a tank battle around Belgorod, Rudel knocked out his first tank with his new tank-busting Stuka - "... my rear gunner who said that the tank exploded like a bomb and he had seen bits of it crashing down behind us." (Hans-Ulrich Rudel). Later on, more Ju-87 D-3s were converted to tank-busters and were designated as Ju-87 G-1 (often nicknamed Panzerknacker - Tank Buster or Kanonenvogel - Cannon Bird) and started arriving on the Eastern Front in October of 1943.

On April 14th of 1943, Hans Rudel was awarded Oakleaves to his Knights Cross.Captain Hans Rudel's squadron of nine tank-busting Ju-87 G-1 was assigned to support of the 3rd SS Panzer Division "Totenkopf".

On the first day of the Operation Citadel, during his first mission,Rudel knocked out four Soviet tanks and by the evening, his score grew to twelve. "We are all seized with a kind of passion for the chase from the glorious feeling of having saved much German bloodshed with every tank destroyed." - Hans Rudel.

At the same time, because of Rudel's squadron'ssuccess, Panzerstaffels (Tank Destroyer Squadrons) were formed.Based on his experiences, Rudel developed new tactics for Panzerstaffels. He found that the best way to knock out tanks was to hit them in the back (T-34's rear mounted engine and its cooling system did not permit the installation of heavier armor plating) or the side. Interesting fact is that attacking the back of the tank meant that the plane had to come from the rear flying towards friendly territory - great advantage if the plane got damaged during the attack.

In november he achieved his 100 tank "kill" with the Ju-87G ( he destroy some before with bombs in the JU-87B/D.

http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Stuka/Rudel/zeitungsartikel.jpg

In the next year H.U.R nearly get killed by the increased quantity and quality of soviet fighter force. In his autobiography, Hans-Ulrich Rudel recalls how his Ju 87 once came under attack from 'an excellent "Lag-5" pilot': 'I just can't understand how he manages to follow my sharp turns in his fighter aircraft', wrote Rudel: 'Sweat poured from my forehead.' Rudel started preparing himself for the final end, as he suddenly heard his rear-gunner, Stabsarzt Ernst Gadermann, cry over the R/T: 'Got the Lag!' Rudel continues: 'Was he shot down by Gadermann, or did he go down because of the backwash from my engine during these tight turns? It doesn't matter. My headphones suddenly explode in confused screams from the Russian radio; the Russians have observed what happened and something special seems to have happened... From the Russian radio-messages, we discover that this was a very famous Soviet fighter pilot, more than once appointed as Hero of the Soviet Union.'

Twitch1

01-19-2006, 11:05 AM

Rudel was a true virtuoso against tanks. He may have been an ardent Nazi but his combat accomplishments outweigh his political preferences. At the place where he is buried the German truck drivers usually sound their trucks' air horns as a salute to him when they pass.

1000ydstare

01-19-2006, 02:03 PM

I don't think anyones accomplishments can override their belief in something as evil as Nazism.

Where is he buried? I live in Germany and would be interested to know where the truckers honk their horns. It being illegal to do so without good reason most times of the day, especially at night and on sundays.

Firefly

01-19-2006, 02:12 PM

He is buried in Dornhausen, Northern Bavaria.

If he was an ardent Nazi I too believe that his accomplishments are soiled by his beliefs, still, the times maketh the man I suppose, its just a pity he didnt see how wrong they were after the war. After all I'm sure he wasn't a fool and had to realise what the Nazis stood for.

Panzerknacker

01-19-2006, 04:11 PM

For reasons of time I miss the part 3 of this..there we go.

------

March 20th 1944. Rudel flies an attack on the bridge at Jampol. The bridge is destroyed despite strong defense fire. A Ju 87 is met at the engine and must make an emergency landing some kilometers eastward the Dnjestr. Rudel decides to save the crew. (Would be the seventh, which he would take out.) Rudel lands, but this time he cannot start again. The airplane sank in the mud too deeply.

Nothing different one remains for the two dive bomber crews to swim than by the icy Dnjepr. His friend and companion with 1400 raids, technical sergeant Erwin Hentschel sunk in the icy water.

http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/7201/13ff1.jpg

Rudel had to flee about 50 km across russian territory, before discovering a german rearguard. Here his the handsketch over the dangerous and arduous escape route.

22.03.1944 arrived again at the III. group *

29.03.1944 Oak leaves with swords and brilliants
*

01.06.1944 2000. Feindflug
2000. enemy flight
*

06.08.1944 Rudel obtains the 300th tank "kill".

The table of Rudel in ocation of his 2000th combat mission.

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/9472/rudel34cz.jpg

From early 1944 to the end of the war, Rudel also started to flight in FW-190 aircraft, especially with the attack variants F y G.

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/2438/fw19010cw.jpg

With this aircraft managed to shoot dowm 6 enemy aircraft. In the late stages of the war it had assigned a Fw-190D-9 Dora also.

He went on to become the most highly decorated combatant in Germany, earning by early 1945 the German Cross in Gold, the Pilots and Observer's Badge with Diamonds, the Close Combat Clasp with 2000 sorties in Diamonds, and the only holder of Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords, and Diamonds.

In 2th february of 1945 one shell of 40 mm flak hit the cockpit of the Stuka flew by Rudel shattering his the lower right leg . Forced landing, on-board contactor squadron physician Dr. Gadermann saves Rudel from the bleeding. Amputation of the right lower leg.

Rudel was then taken to the hospital in Berlin, where he had an artificial limb fitted and then returned to his squadron. In the last days of the war, Colonel Rudel commanded the oldest and the best known close assault / support Stuka group - Schlachtgeschwader 2 Immelmann. He was still operating with his unit in last days of war on the Eastern Front. At the end of the war, Rudel wanted to fly a suicide attack with his squadron but hissuperior ordered him not to take off because "he might be needed later", which might have been the only reason why he didn't do so. He also volunteered to fly his Stuka into Berlin in May of 1945 to rescue Hitler from the Red Army.

On May 8th of 1945, when Germany surrendered, Colonel Hans Rudel who was in Bohemia, flew his last mission in Ju-87 Stuka. He managed to contact American forces and arranged for himself and other planes to fly over to Kitzingen airfield (near Wurzburg) in the American zone, escaping the capture by the Soviets.Afterwards, Hans Rudel was interrogated first in England and then in France and eventually returned to hospital in Bavaria for convalesce.

The last Stuka of H.U.R:

http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/8274/gordon32wz.jpg

Rudel left the Bavarian hospital and started working as a haulage contractor and in 1948, left for Argentina, where he worked for the State Airplane Worksand organized with other escaped Nazis a NSDAP party-like structure.

In 1951, Rudel published two booklets in Buenos Aires, "Wir Frontsoldaten zur Wiederaufrüstung" (We Frontline Soldiers and Our Opinion to Rearmament of Germany) and "Dolchstoß oder Legende" (Daggerthrust or Legend). In the first book, Rudel claims to speak for all frontline soldiers stating that they would fight again against the Bolsheviks and that Germany's "Lebensraum" (Living Space) is in the East.

Even without a leg, he remained an active sportsman, playing tennis, skiing and even climbing the highest peak in the Americas, Aconcagua (6,959 metres (22,831 feet)), as well as three times up the highest volcano on Earth, Llullay-Yacu in the Argentine Andes (6,920 meters). Rudel's input was also used during development of A-10 attack craft.

In his second book, Rudel condemns notonly all the soldiers who tried to kill Hitler as traitors, but also the staff officers of the Wehrmacht stating that both groups were directly responsible for the defeat. Rudel condemns soldiers because the turmoil caused by the assassination allowed the Allied forces to succeed with the Invasion of Europe, while he condemns the staff officers of the Wehrmacht because they could not see Hitler's genius in warfare and worked silently against him.

Those two booklets were followed by some more of similar nature.Hans-Ulrich Rudel eventually returned to Germany in early 1950s and in 1953, published his war diary entitled "Trotzdem" (Nevertheless). There was a discussion in Germany if it should be allowed that his diary was published, because he was known as a Nazi, but in 1953, it was no longer that bad to be a Nazi.

Most people wanted to forget, mostly their own part of the story, while some Nazis became politicians and businessmen and the Witschaftswunder (The rise of the industry and economy) made the Germans interested in other things. Rudel continued his sporting activities and became a candidate for the Deutsche Reichspartei (DRP) an ultraconservative party but was unsuccessful. The "Stuka Ace" died in Germany in 1982. In 1984, his diary was published again and two of the greatest Allied fighter pilots, Douglas Bader and Pierre Clostermann wrote a warm and praising foreword to this edition, surely being unaware of Rudel's political activities

http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/6894/rudelfarbe39qd.jpg

http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/2518/rudel5kl7hq.jpg

----------------

Sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Ulrich_Rudel

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/gen9.htm

http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/kitzingen4.htm

http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Stuka/Rudel/rudel.htm

Dani

01-21-2006, 02:57 AM

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/7235/scrosswithgoldenoakleavesanddi.jpg

Twitch1

01-21-2006, 04:55 PM

Thanks for some great new pics I hadn't seen Panzerknacker despite what anyone says. They are welcome to their opinions and you and I are welcome to ours.

Here's some more about Rudel's accomplishments:

Hans-Ulrich Rudel
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a15/Twitch98/ph-10181.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a15/Twitch98/ph-10187.jpg

Hans-Ulrich Rudel (July 2, 1916 - December 18, 1982) was a Stuka dive-bomber pilot during World War II. Rudel is famous as being the most highly decorated German during the war. He gained Germany's highest military decoraton, which was made just for him.

He and his Stuka destroyed a large amount of enemy ordinance including major warships and over 500 tanks.

Biography

Rudel was born to a Protestant minister in Konradswaldau (Silesia), Germany (Polish after 1945). After a limited education, he joined the German Luftwaffe in 1936 as an officer cadet. He was initially only trained as a reconnaissance observer pilot, primarily because of his poor educational background.

When war broke out in 1939 he was in the reconnaissance wing of the Luftwaffe, and spent the Polish Campaign as a Lieutenant flying long-range missions. He earned the Iron Cross Second Class on October 11, 1939. He was then admitted to dive-bombing Stuka training in May 1940, and after completing it, was assigned to a Stuka wing near Stuttgart. Rudel spent the French campaign as an Oberleutnant, however, in a non-combat role. Although he took part in the invasion of Crete, it was also in a non-combat role.

Rudel flew his first combat mission on June 23, 1941, with the German invasion of the Soviet Union. His piloting skills earned the Iron Cross First Class on July 18, 1941. On September 23 1941, Rudel sunk the Soviet battleship Marat during an air attack on Kronstadt harbor in the Leningrad area.

In total, Rudel flew about 2,530 combat missions (world record), during which time he destroyed almost 2,000 ground targets (among them 519 tanks, 70 landing boats and more than 150 anti-air and anti-tank defenses ), as well as a battleship, two cruisers, a destroyer and 13 planes. He was shot down 32 times (behind enemy lines), always somehow managing to escape capture despite Stalin personally having a 100,000 rouble bounty placed on his head.

He went on to become the most highly decorated combatant in Germany, earning by early 1945 the German Cross in Gold, the Pilots and Observer's Badge with Diamonds, the Close Combat Clasp with 2000 sorties in Diamonds, and the only holder of Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords, and Diamonds. In February, 1945, he was wounded in the right thigh by anti-aircraft fire; the leg was later amputated, although he returned to combat duties with an artificial limb. Eventually, he surrendered to American forces in May, 1945. He moved to Argentina in 1948.

After the war Rudel became a close friend and confidante of the Argentine president Juan Peron. Rudel wrote a book titled In Spite of Everything, and memoirs book titled Stuka Pilot which supported most of the Nazi policy. Even without a leg, he remained an active sportsman, playing tennis, skiing and even climbing the highest peak in the Americas, Aconcagua (7020 meters, more than 21000 feet), as well as three times up the highest volcano on Earth, Llullay-Yacu in the Argentine Andes (6,920 meters). Rudel's input was also used during development of A-10 attack craft.

Rudel returned to West Germany in 1953 and joined the German Reich Party. He was a successful businessman in post-war Germany. He died in Rosenheim in 1982, and was buried in Dornhausen.

Quotation
"Verloren ist nur, wer sich selbst aufgibt" ("Lost are only those, who abandon themselves".

From http://com1.runboard.com/bwwiidatabaseforum

Firefly

01-21-2006, 06:09 PM

Twitch

Ansewr this please.

Are you saying that because someone was a good pilot you forgive his views?

Yes or no?

Panzerknacker

01-21-2006, 06:36 PM

Thanks for some great new pics I hadn't seen Panzerknacker despite what anyone says. They are welcome to their opinions and you and I are welcome to ours

Yuo are welcome twich. 8)

Twitch

Ansewr this please.

Are you saying that because someone was a good pilot you forgive his views?

Yes or no?

Is a fact that Rudel was a convinced of the national-socialism form of goverment and a strong anti-communist. Honestly the point that is a litle obscure is the holocaust thing....I never see a declaration of Rudel in regard of that question.

Ingsoc

03-05-2006, 01:05 PM

Is a fact that Rudel was a convinced of the national-socialism form of goverment and a strong anti-communist. Honestly the point that is a litle obscure is the holocaust thing....I never see a declaration of Rudel in regard of that question.

You shoul know that his part, the Socialist Reich Party, received funds from the USSR in an attempt to destabilise the BRD.

As for the holocust I never read any quates by Rudel himself but the leader of the SRP, Otto Remer, was a know holocust denier.

Anyway I wanted to share some color pics I have (I just love color German pics :D )

http://img423.imageshack.us/img423/9714/hansulrichrudel7pd.jpg

http://img458.imageshack.us/img458/7929/hansulrichrudel27pc.jpg

http://img423.imageshack.us/img423/6141/hansulrichrudel32og.jpg

http://img423.imageshack.us/img423/9213/hansulrichrudel44vz.jpg

http://img458.imageshack.us/img458/728/hansulrichrudel52fw.jpg

Panzerknacker

03-06-2006, 04:50 PM

Very nice pics thanks. :D

Panzerknacker

04-15-2006, 12:21 AM

A nice photo of the greatest Stuka pilot seeing some...stuka pictures.

http://www.de1939a1945.bravepages.com/imagenes/ce004rudel.jpg

1000ydstare

04-15-2006, 02:27 AM

What about his beliefs?

We have confirmed that he was indeed a gifted pilot and did much for his side in the war but...

Was he raving Nazi loon until the end of his days? Why did he believe the east was still living space for the Nazis?

Also what was the input on Argentina of all these ardent Nazis appearing on their soil? Could they be responsible for the taking of power by Junta, etc? Or at least setting them on their way?

Nice to know this guy went mountain climbing and playing tennis whilst he (and what he belived in) left Europe in ruins. These guys should have been hunted down and killed.

I still stand by what I said earlier, that his actions do not make up for his beliefs.

Panzerknacker

04-16-2006, 11:07 AM

We have confirmed that he was indeed a gifted pilot and did much for his side in the war but...

Was he raving Nazi loon until the end of his days? Why did he believe the east was still living space for the Nazis?

He was a very much convinced nacional-socialist (nazi)...there is no question about that, he was one of the last hitler supporters, I dont know his opinions about holucaust, lebesnraum (even probably he agree with the last one).

Also what was the input on Argentina of all these ardent Nazis appearing on their soil? Could they be responsible for the taking of power by Junta, etc? Or at least setting them on their way?

The military 60-70s goverments was more influentiated by the anti-comunist and internal-security policies of the OTAN and USA, the Peron goverment was the more perceptive with the nationalist ideas, that mean a more or less democratic right wing govermenet but with a heavy touch of socialism, that is the Peronism itself.

Is quiet amazing the large amout of germans that arrived here in war-post war years...having in mind that Argentina did not participate in any combat of taking any prisoners.

1000ydstare

04-16-2006, 01:39 PM

You have good weather and no wouldn't send them back to face the music. What more would they want?

Panzerknacker

04-16-2006, 03:13 PM

Probably also they want a good beer....And we have it ¡¡¡ :?

http://www2.discovirtual.com.ar/imgs/Articulos/3/14882.jpg

One of earliest were the survivors of the Graf Spee Panzerschiff that were interned about 96 km of were I am.

http://www.villageneralbelgrano.org/#villa-general-belgrano-aquitectura

1000ydstare

04-16-2006, 03:25 PM

Isn't Schneider a German name?

Panzerknacker

04-16-2006, 03:29 PM

It does, but one non-nazi inmigrant wich arrived the country in late 1870s :D

Panzerknacker

06-18-2006, 01:55 PM

pretty good video

Rudel making some aerobics and then taking off with the Kanonvogel.

http://www.wochenschau-archiv.de/kontrollklfenster.php?&PHPSESSID=&dmguid=08E92C0055BA58DF030103009D21A8C0170A000000&inf=506240&outf=665560&funktion=play250k

Twitch1

06-21-2006, 12:04 PM

Ingsoc

06-29-2006, 08:58 AM

Lancer44

06-29-2006, 10:36 AM

Panzerknacker- I'd like to see someone draw a parallel to prove that idealism makes a person a more skilled pilot. It makes absolutely no difference what Rudel's politics were. Idealogy didn't assist him in killing 519 tanks. Idealogy didn't make his bombs and cannon shells go more true. And idealogy didn't make enemy bullets miss.

I disagree, beleving in your goal is very importand for a soldier, I don't think that any soldiers no mather how much powerfull is the army that he fighting him, could be any good without any belief in his goal.

I agree first with Ingsock - soldiers which believe in their country cause, which volunteer, which are willing to fight, because they are convinced that they are defending their country, are much better than soldiers forcibly dressed in uniform and send to the front line.
(Because we talk about WWII, I will not mention Israeli soldiers in "6 Days War".)
The best WWII example would be soviet Red Army in June, July, August 1941.
These blokes did not believed in their country... their family members were in Gulag's camps or already shot, or perhaps died of hunger.
More or less... soldiers, which were nearly always in civilian clothes, received 1 rifle per 3 man + 10 bullets and were ordered to attack German tanks.
Result - 2 million POWs taken by Germans.
Further result - 1.5 millions of soviet POWs dead, because Germans
couldn't even dream about that many POWs - hence no food, no camps, no transport, no Geneva Convention obligations.

I expect some discussion about my perhaps misguided opinions...
I may be totally wrong with figures - I don't have my books at hand now.

Than I would like to salute Twitch1...
He perfectly described connection between ideology and skills...
No connection AT ALL!!!

However, ideology can prompt men/women to be more dilligent in training and achieve better results... I think Rudel was the case... He believed...
And good on him.

Cheers,

Lancer44

Panzerknacker

06-29-2006, 08:33 PM

Firefly

06-30-2006, 05:50 AM

Panzerknacker

06-30-2006, 08:39 PM

Unfortunately we cannot do that, the OKL confirmed only about 300 of his land victories, aniway even with this leeser number of "panzerabschuss" with the Ju-87G gunship the figure is still impressive.

Outerheaven

07-01-2006, 12:54 AM

Firefly

07-01-2006, 06:29 AM

Mate, they did get leave. No one can spend 5 years at the front constantly.

My whole point was that propaganda played a big part in kill statistics.

Twitch1

07-26-2006, 01:05 PM

With T-34 other Sov tanks being produced "like so many loaves of bread" why does anyone feel compelled to even ask the question of whether Rudel's score is valid in such a target-rich environment by a talented man who flew 2,530 missions- more than any combat pilot in history.

Ideolology CAN'T give you pilot skills either!

Panzerknacker

07-26-2006, 08:03 PM

Well , I think that from the lates 1990s has been some waves of "Luftwaffe revisionism" in wich some authors ( mostly russian) had declare in others words that the luftwaffe claims are basicly crap, the Bf-109 can barely flight, The FW-190 was a target with wings, etc, etc.

It does not surprize me, If there is revisionism about the holocaust it might be about everything.

1000ydstare

07-27-2006, 12:00 PM

That the number of soviet tanks on the eastern front was so vast does not automatically prove such a high kill rate by a pilot. Things like the German supply chain also play apart, a plane can't fly with fuel nor fight without ammo. All of which would be expended by the score in such a "target rich environment".

That he was an ardent loon on the side of the Nazis would actually affect his flying. If he beleived so greatly in the ideology and rightness of hte nazi cause he would be prepared to do much more than a pilot who didn't have such believes. He would have taken chances that others would not.

This is nothing to do with skill, merely his daring.

We also need to address what was classed as a kill. Some tanks tht were killed may only have had minor damage that was soon repaird, and crews that were soon replaced.

Twitch1

07-28-2006, 07:52 PM

Kamikaze pilots were daring. Doesn't mean they were skillful. Taking chances does no make a good pilot or soldier of any kind. Skill has to do with proficiency in combat aviation and ideology can NOT magically give you skills no matter how much you wish upon a star or how much you believe in a cause nazi or otherwise. Why attempt to reassign personal definitions to words? As Panzerknacker mentions it must be a revisionist plot to tarnish anything German. That's sad.

1000ydstare

07-29-2006, 08:42 AM

Not at all Twitch1. Think of when you got to a shop or a cafe. Someone who genuinely feels positive about there work will do a much better job than someone who doesn't feel so positive.

If this guy was as ardent supporter of the nazis as is made out then I feel that every time he took off he would see himself doing somthing positive, even defending the very heart of the 3rd reich. Because of this he would fly better, his skills would be enhanced (not created) by this attitude.

Everybodies skills are somehow enhanced when doing work they enjoy/feel passionate about, piloting would be the same. At the end of a hard, long mission he would perhaps take time for that one last strafe, where as another pilot may just fly by, it does happen in combat. At Rourkes Drift the Zulu hoard were within fighting distance of Lord Chelmsfords column yet both sides chose not to engage.

Also many pilots believe that aggresivness leads to better piloting (in fighters), this zeal would have been enhanced with his political believes.

Did you not ask him any of this when you interviewed him Twitch?

Twitch1

07-29-2006, 02:49 PM

Bussing tables at a coffee shop has nothing in common with air combat. Feeling good about yourself and a good attitude working in an office still has nothing to do with skill or aptitude in piloting duties. Aggressiveness is paramount in surviving combat but still has nothing to do with learning how to navigate or recover from stalles or landing in a crosswind. As we know the strict requirements that were in place before 1943 when guys like Rudel, Krupinski, Galland and all went through training, we know that, no doubt, many ardent believers in the Nazi cause washed out. Right?

But if that is what anyone wishes to believe that is fine with me. And as usual you may have the last word on this topic. I realize that is important to some people. I never interviewed Rudel and never said I did, but I wish I did!

1000ydstare

07-30-2006, 08:34 AM

My mistake I thought you had interviewed him, must have been someone else.

Not a desire to have a last word on any topic really.

I think you are trying, however, to make a black and white representation, rather than many shades of grey. Piloting is a very complicated task, yes other ardent nazis would have failed to be pilots, maybe even shot down had the become so. I just feel that his ideals would have helped.

The Red Baron, for an aside, was actually a very poor pilot yet his accuracy with his guns allowed him to shoot down many pilots from long range. There are skills and attributes that can overlap or nullify problem areas though.

Tony Williams

07-30-2006, 09:59 PM

I have always wondered at the apparently inflated kill totals of certain Nazi military personnel, indeed this is not confined to Nazis but Allies too.

How can we confirm that Rudel destroyed 519 Tanks? By the very nature of where he got these kills, there would be little or no German witnesses. I will continue to wonder.
The hardest evidence of claims v kills against tanks we have is for the RAF/USAF fighter-bombers in France, 1944. Operational Research teams went over the battlefields afterwards, examining the German vehicles and assessing how they were knocked out. The result? The pilots overclaimed by 10x.

It is also known that the Russians wildly overclaimed their aircraft tank kills, sometimes claiming far more destroyed than were actually in the area.

It would be surprising if the Germans were the only ones not to suffer from this.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Panzerknacker

08-01-2006, 08:18 PM

Probably, someone can say that not all tank were PERMANENT lost, because some of them were salvaged and repaired.

And the comparison between Rudel and kamikazes is not likely, there is a big difference between been brave and to be fatalist about your future.

Panzerknacker

08-04-2006, 09:26 PM

Fantastic video of Rudel in the hospital after he was shot in the leg.

http://rapidshare.de/files/28222613/rudel_interview.mpg.html

Panzerknacker

01-02-2007, 09:18 PM

Stukas "D" attacking russian ground targets..and taking some flak too

http://www.wochenschau-archiv.de/kontrollklfenster.php?&PHPSESSID=&dmguid=08E92C00FF3BA5CD030103009D21A8C0101B000000&inf=422200&outf=524080&funktion=play250k

Digger

01-03-2007, 01:32 AM

Confirming tank kills is always difficult, especially on the Eastern Front. Unless a tank was totally destroyed by an internal explosion or consumed by fire, then they were often repaired and returned to combat. This was true of both sides and would explain the often inflated kill claims.

Regards Digger.

Panzerknacker

01-04-2007, 08:45 PM

It could be more accurate to say that: Rudel claims 500 tanks "knocked out" , wich means that were actually put out of service in a battle, and might or might not be recovered after that.

and yes is dificult to confirm that claims, if you are not in posetion of the grounds after the battle. The guncams are not 100 % accurate.

KV-1 knocked out by Hs-129.

http://i14.tinypic.com/4h9k5rb.jpg

http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Stuka/Rudel/verleihung_1.jpg

Twitch1

01-19-2007, 04:14 PM

I re-read Stuka Pilot and can say for certain that every kill Rudel described was a total destruction of the vehicle. They didn't just stop running they were wracked with explosions, massive fires turrets deteached etc. Those tanks were dead forever. Besides why the hell would the Sovs bother to attempt salvage a totally burned out tank when a zillion more were slogging their way toward the front? Talk to anyone who has seen the insides of a knocked out tank and you'll quickly realize that the simply clean up of the crews' spattered biological parts is an immense task alone. With the generally nomadic Russians there was no facility to pull engines, refit turrets and mount dozens of bogies and drive wheels, then test them if they'd had all the spares to refit. Rudel also destroyed some 5,000 trucks in his 2,530 sorties. Take away 1,000 and its still a stupendous amount. He was in the cockpit constantly often flying a dozen missions a day. Attempting to diss his score is simply sour grapes.

Panzerknacker

01-19-2007, 06:41 PM

Nobody attemp to deny or minimizate his success, we are simply analizing some probabilities.

Tony Williams

01-19-2007, 10:00 PM

I re-read Stuka Pilot and can say for certain that every kill Rudel described was a total destruction of the vehicle.

Just because he wrote it in a book doesn't make it true.

I have a books by P-47 and Typhoon pilots who carried out many attacks on German armour after D-day. If that was the only info you had on the subject, you would believe that the fighter-bombers destroyed most of the German armour by themselves. In fact, independent sources show that they killed very few tanks.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Egorka

01-20-2007, 06:32 PM

KV-1 knocked out by Hs-129.

This the article about this episode ( http://www.soldiering.ru/avia/airplane/ww2/battle-plane.php ).

This was 1 of the 2 tanks used to test the german 30mm airplane canons. Both tanks were actually destroyed by the German panzers previously.

The first tank was attacked by 4 airpalnes, but out of 102 shots none hit the target at the given angle of attack.

The second tank (on the picture) was attacked on shorter distance (300 - 500 meters) and received 12 hits out of 94 fired (3 pilots hit tank and the 4th missed). None of the 12 hits lead to the damage to the tank interior and could not deminish it's fighting ability.

Here is the photos of the shots:
http://www.soldiering.ru/avia/airplane/ww2/img038.jpg
http://www.soldiering.ru/avia/airplane/ww2/img039.jpg

In the article it says that probability of a He-129 to destory a Т-34-76 (1942) in a single attack with 30mm canon MK101 was about 1% - 2% (side attack, angle 25''-30'', distance 200 - 300 meters).

Panzerknacker

01-20-2007, 07:06 PM

Here is the photos of the shots:
http://www.soldiering.ru/avia/airplane/ww2/img038.jpg (http://www.soldiering.ru/avia/airplane/ww2/img038.jpg)
http://www.soldiering.ru/avia/airplane/ww2/img039.jpg (http://www.soldiering.ru/avia/airplane/ww2/img039.jpg)

Thanks Egorka for the links, I had extracted the pics form other site with wrong captions.

In the article it says that probability of a He-129 to destory a Т-34-76 (1942) in a single attack with 30mm canon MK101 was about 1% - 2% (side attack, angle 25''-30'', distance 200 - 300 meters).

Huummm... If the german pilot start to shoot from that distance he had only about 6-7 shots before pulling out because the 4,25 rounds per second of the Mk-101 cannon. However the Mk was capable to penetrate the side armor of the T-34.

Egorka

01-21-2007, 04:13 PM

Panzerknacker:

Exactly the point. The pilot had normally app. 1 - 2 seconds per attack during which the fire could have been effective. It was difficult to hit the tank with these 6-7 shots. But not every shot that hit the traget could knock it out of operabilty as the valnurable area was small (less than 2 square meters). That is why the chances in a single palne atack were so low.

Panzerknacker

01-21-2007, 05:28 PM

Indeed ,the chance of completely destroy a tank with the 30 mm caliber was not very promising that why the germans moved to the 37, 50 and 75 mm guns in his aircrafts.

50gunship

01-27-2007, 12:39 PM

Hans Ulrich Rudel recived the hightest award possable for someone in germany on January 1 1945. The aword was the Knights Cross Golden Oakleaves with Swords and Diamonds. (Look at picture).

Reason for the aword below.

Rank: Oberst (Colonel)
Unit: III./St. Geschw. 2 " Immelmann "
Received on: 1 January 1945
Details: Strike the balance after 2530 raids:
- 519 russian tanks
- 1 battleship
- 1 destroyer
- 70 landing boats
- 800+ motorized vehicles
- 150+ Artillery -, Pak and anti-aircraft positions
- 9 air victories (7 hunters, 2 battle airplanes Il 2)
info from, http://www.ww2awards.com/person/205.

50gunship

01-27-2007, 12:45 PM

He was also aworded the German Cross (Deutsches Kreuz), it is the highest German Order awarded by Hitler during World War 2. There are three classes: Gold with Brilliants, Gold and Silver. The Golden Cross was awarded for 'bravey in the face of the enemy'; the Sliver for 'leadership of men, not in the face of the enemy'. The badge is a large eight-pointed star with a black swastika in its centre surmounted by rays. There is no ribbon.

He was aworded the gold.

Panzerknacker

01-27-2007, 03:50 PM

Impressive awards, I read somewhere that the Rudel s family put all that in auction, not very happy move, I think in a museum should be better suited.

Panzerknacker

01-29-2007, 07:36 PM

I post a link to download this video earlier, in here you can see it in direct mode.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSo6cGgl3PQ

Man in Uniform:" Oberst, can you tell me what happend?"
Rudel:"It`d hit me hard this time.We saw the first Tanks, rolling over the Oder. Of course we wanted to destroy them.Enemy AA defense where very strong and on my last attack turn, a 4cm AA did hit me and the plane started burning. I did get hit in the leg, but flew another few rounds and managed it to land in friendly lines.

The only thing that bothers me is, that my comrades and squadron have to fight on their own in this critical situation.We all have to bite our teeth together and make the sacrifices we had not forgotten.Our people, who have fought so brave will be victorious in the end"

DORA 12

02-21-2007, 04:56 PM

Hello forum members, I am the new guy

Just a question; are those tank kills actually proofen ? after all not to mention the battleships and trucks and....... ,the second runner up is almost 400 Tanks behind the Nr.1

Dora 12

Panzerknacker

02-21-2007, 06:44 PM

The second best is a guy named Anton Hush, i did not remeber what was his score but let me check.

Welcome by the way.

Tony Williams

02-21-2007, 07:53 PM

Just a question; are those tank kills actually proofen ? after all not to mention the battleships and trucks and....... ,the second runner up is almost 400 Tanks behind the Nr.1

The short answer is "no". The only real validation of the number of tanks destroyed by air attack would have come from admitted Soviet losses, or examination of the remains on the ground. As far as I know, neither is available in the case of the Eastern Front. And even if they were, that wouldn't tell us which pilot did the damage.

Having said that, I don't think that anyone denies that Rudel was outstandingly effective.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

DORA 12

02-21-2007, 08:24 PM

Well according to these figures Rudel would indeed be outstanding. I just find it noticable that in this category the Nr. 1 is about 5 times better then the Nr.2. Which for fighter pilots, or tank crews, or submarine commanders is by far not the case.

So since the count cant be reconstructed over enemy held territory, the only wittnesses to most of those kills would acctually only be him and his rear gunner. Hmmmmm... :roll:

Dora 12

Panzerknacker

02-22-2007, 08:57 PM

And the guncamera, I think some of the tank claimed as destroyed by Rudel ( and I keep telling this for those who didnt want to browse the early pages) were actually "knocked out" wich means that if the battefield is in posession of the russians in the end of the day they could salvage it, repair and put back that tank on service, nevertheless a tank knocked out is stiil a tank out of combat so is valid as claim.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ae/Meierdress-EastofWarsaw.jpg

Panzerknacker

02-22-2007, 09:19 PM

I have a books by P-47 and Typhoon pilots who carried out many attacks on German armour after D-day. If that was the only info you had on the subject, you would believe that the fighter-bombers destroyed most of the German armour by themselves. In fact, independent sources show that they killed very few tanks

Ammunition carried by the P-47 thunderbolt:

12,7x99mm.

http://www.waffen-ingold.ch/images/DSC06147a_web.jpg

ammunition carried by the Typhoon, 20x110mm:

http://i9.tinypic.com/2qsts1y.jpg

Ammunition carried by the Ju-87 Gustav 37x263mm belted, tugsten core with tracer.

http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/5762/bk37closetz7.jpg

Unlikely comparative ..isnt ? :D

Tony Williams

02-23-2007, 03:13 AM

Actually, the Typhoon's main anti-tank armament was rocket projectiles, which were vastly more destructive than the BK 3,7 carried by the Ju 87G. The problem was that the pilots had little chance of hitting tank-sized targets.

Incidentally, the 20mm round in your picture is for the Oerlikon AA gun, not the Hispano.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Panzerknacker

02-23-2007, 08:26 AM

But how effective wast a Rocket ? how accurate ?

It carry some kind of HEAT charge?

Incidentally, the 20mm round in your picture is for the Oerlikon AA gun, not the Hispano

that rebated rim. :rolleyes: It is for naval AAA made by FM in Argentina.

DORA 12

02-23-2007, 05:10 PM

I am not an expert on that, but probably these rockets did not really blow up a heavier tank through a penetration hit. There are a lot of photos showing tilted German tanks, even Tigers. It would very likely have just been the blast that could be enough to knock over a tank or kill the crew members inside.
So shooting of a rocket salvo was probably easier and more effective then having to land a direct hit via cannon on a tank.

Dora 12

Tony Williams

02-24-2007, 03:07 PM

But how effective wast a Rocket ? how accurate ? It carry some kind of HEAT charge?

Accuracy was 5% hits on tanks in training, 0.5% in combat. I believe it just used a standard HE charge.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Librarian

02-24-2007, 03:55 PM

Once again – sorry for being late, honorable ladies and gentlemen, but due to my inexorable obligations I am able to provide only a dilatory factographic contribution. Hopefully a useful one…

As you know, one amongst the most distinguished bombing actions in WW 2 was a devastation of soviet battleship Marat (ex-Petropavlovsk), carried out by Hans Ulrich Rudel on September 23rd,1941. Marat probably was the most famous ship of the legendary Russian Sevastopol Class of battleships, as she represented the Soviet Union in the Coronation Review for King George VI in June of 1937. She was based at Tallin when Germany invaded the Soviet Union in June of 1941, and she almost immediately became the target of German Luftwaffe. In those times the Baltic Fleet had just achieved a breakthrough from Tallinn to Kronstadt and the order was to concentrate on heavy artillery saturation-fire upon enemy armed forces. The fleet's long-range large-caliber guns rendered an invaluable service to the battlefront. To help accomplish a general strategic mission – decisive defense of Leningrad – the ships trained all their guns on the enemy's motorized columns that were trying to penetrate into the city perimeter. To this end the battleship Marat, the cruisers Maxim Gorky and Petropavlovsk, the flotilla leader Leningrad, and the destroyers Opytny and Smetlivy were moored in the estuary of the Neva River and the harbours of the city's commercial port. Out of the Kronstadt group of ships, namely the battleship Oktyabarskaya Revolutsiya, the cruiser Kirov, flotilla leader Minsk, the destroyers Silny, Surovy, Svirepy, Slavny, Stoiky, Gordy and Steregushchy also took up assigned firing positions.

Altogether twenty four 305 mm, eighteen 180 mm (not counting the 203 mm main guns of the heavy cruiser Petropavlovsk) and over fifty 130 mm guns of the battleships, cruisers, flotilla leaders and destroyers were completely prepared for heavy support artillery fire. This was a very impressive force. For example, only a battleship's artillery barrage weighed six tons. In a minute the ship was able to shower the enemy with 50 tons of heavy shells.

Conducting highly accurate and long-range fire the 305 mm heavy ordnance were a source of serious trouble to the Germans. No wonder that they committed large Luftwaffe formations to action against those ships, and the battleships were their main targets. Subsequently the Marat was firstly hit with a heavy bomb on September 16, when she was anchored in the boot basin of the Morskoi Kanal and her guns were firing at the attacking columns of the Wehrmacht. However, the Luftwaffe conducted particularly massive raids on her on September 21-23. She was then moored in Tzar Peter I Harbour in Kronstadt.

On September 23, 1941 entire Baltic fleet was massively attacked by Ju-87 B Stuka dive-bombers of the Stukageschwader 2 Immelmann. One 1-ton bomb aimed by Rudel has effectively penetrated through her deck armor, and subsequently detonated her forward ammunition magazine of the 23606 ton naval veteran, built back there in 1911. In a colossal explosion, mostly similar to that experienced by USS Arizona about two and a half months later in Pearl Harbor, the bow area of the ship was completely ruined, "A" gun turret with two 305 mm cannons crumbled, and parts of the superstructure thrown onto a nearby quay. As always, members of the Stabia LFL 2 photo-reconnaissance squadron were on the spot in a little while, so previously mentioned accomplishment was heavily photographically recorded for further evaluation.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/BBMarat-RudelJu87.jpg

Clobbered and partially sunk Battleship Marat (ex-Petropavlovsk), Kronstat – September 23, 1941. Photo taken by Stabia LFL 2, colonel Hans Ruef

The complete forecastle, a turret and the bridge were destroyed, but fortunately the ship has laid down herself to the shallow harbor bottom, and outstanding success of the German aerial attack was soon compensated by equally unbelievable Soviet steadfastness and constructive ingenuity: remained ship hull was water-tightened by welded steel plates, leveled and counterbalanced with water ballast, and additionally stabilized by anchors. This magnificent achievement was carried out by the talented specialists of the EPRON (Expedition of Underwater Works for Special Purposes) already an efficient state-owned and controlled rescue and salvage organization. Manned with experienced technicians and divers and sufficiently equipped with rescue vessels and other essential equipment it was incorporated in the Soviet Navy on June 22, 1941.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Maratrepaired.jpg
Marat, partially repaired

As previously mentioned, three other turrets remained basically intact, and two months later, as the Wehrmacht drew closer, the remaining three 305 mm main gun towers continued to support ground operations. The Marat, however, never sailed out to sea after that. Though she remained moored till the end of the war, she continued to fight and to inflict heavy losses on the enemy. On May 31, 1943 heavily damaged ship was once again renamed as Petropavlovsk. There were plans for her reconstruction, but they were never carried out. Ship was reclassified as a stationary artillery training ship in November of 1950 and once again renamed Volkhov, but finally scrapped in 1954.

And here you have another, quite unknown original snapshot of the Junkers 87 G 2. It was published in a official Hungarian Royal Air Force Magazine "Magyar Szárnyak" (Hungarian Wings) No.13/43 (1st of July, 1943).

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/Ju87G2.jpg
Ju 87 G2

I think that I will be able to find there some intriguing pictures about our common theme – factual armor-piercing efficiency of those 3,7 cm Bordkannone guns too. Till then – all the best.;)

Tony Williams

02-24-2007, 04:08 PM

I think that I will be able to find there some intriguing pictures about our common theme – factual armor-piercing efficiency of those 3,7 cm Bordkannone guns too. Till then – all the best.;)

There are, of course, three aspects to this:

1. The penetration the gun/ammo combinations were capable of;

2. The practical accuracy of the guns in combat (less than the accuracy in training, due to combat stress).

3. The effectiveness of the ammo if it did penetrate (the smaller the projectile, the less likely it was to disable the tank).

As far as the first point is concerned, this is what I put in Flying Guns – World War 2: Development of Aircraft Guns, Ammunition and Installations 1933-45 (http://users.telenet.be:80/Emmanuel.Gustin/) :

"The BK 3,7 was not a particularly impressive gun. It was a modified version of the FlaK 18 AA gun, was big, heavy and slow-firing in comparison with the NS-37, and the ammunition clip could only contain a maximum of twelve rounds (six and eight-round clips also being used). However, it was quite powerful and the tungsten-cored Hartkernmunition could be extremely effective, penetrating 140 mm / 100 m / 90°, although this reduced sharply to 70 mm at 60°.
It is worth noting that the effectiveness of the Hartkern rounds was not only more affected by the striking angle than conventional AP shot but was also drastically reduced if the tanks were fitted with "stand-off" additional armour plates of the sort used to protect against hollow-charge infantry weapons. In these circumstances, the use of traditional APHE shells was recommended despite their theoretically much lower performance; the big BK 5 and BK 7,5 would have been the only really effective airborne anti-tank guns. The APHE shell for the 37x263B ammunition weighed 680 g and was fired at about 800 m/s; penetration would have been about 50 mm / 500 m / 0º or 40 mm at 60º. The equivalent shell for the 50x419R penetrated 78 mm / 500 m / 0º or 61 mm at 60º."

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Chevan

02-24-2007, 04:20 PM

That's amazing story about Marat thanks dear Librarian.
I didn't know the story of this ship detailed befor.

Cheers.

Panzerknacker

02-24-2007, 05:28 PM

Very good pics Librarian as you usual do.

Accuracy was 5% hits on tanks in training, 0.5% in combat. I believe it just used a standard HE charge.

So...? you cant tell me that this ridiculous percentage can beat a 37mm gun.

"The BK 3,7 was not a particularly impressive gun. It was a modified version of the FlaK 18 AA gun, was big, heavy and slow-firing in comparison with the NS-37, and the ammunition clip could only contain a maximum of twelve rounds (six and eight-round clips also being used).

Fine, but the NS-37 carried no tugsten core so the penetration were much less than the german weapon, and no to mention the heavy stress and vibration wich tranfered to the IL-2 wooden wings.

The vibration caused a very spread pattern of ammo so the 37mm NS was found very poor in accuracy by the russian pilots.

As you might know the BK-37 included a hidro pneumatic shock absorver wich dampened condiderabely the recoil tranfered to the Gustav wings.....wich were by far more strong than the Ilyushin attack craft.

However, it was quite powerful and the tungsten-cored Hartkernmunition could be extremely effective, penetrating 140 mm / 100 m / 90°, although this reduced sharply to 70 mm at 60°.

Wich mean it can penetrate any tank in russian service with the exception of the JS-2 in the frontal arc.

In these circumstances, the use of traditional APHE shells was recommended despite their theoretically much lower performance; the big BK 5 and BK 7,5 would have been the only really effective airborne anti-tank guns. The APHE shell for the 37x263B ammunition weighed 680 g and was fired at about 800 m/s; penetration would have been about 50 mm / 500 m / 0º or 40 mm at 60º. The equivalent shell for the 50x419R penetrated 78 mm / 500 m / 0º or 61 mm at 60º."

In the handbüch de Bordwaffenmunition the BK just appear to had 2 bullets tipe, a HE and the Hartkern, no mention to tha steel core ammo. The pictures I have seems to confirm that.

Ace Tankkiller

02-24-2007, 05:31 PM

Yes,that is a very good story of the Marat,especially interesting that it stayed in the port for almost 10 years and was still used in service.

Tony Williams

02-25-2007, 02:55 AM

So...? you cant tell me that this ridiculous percentage can beat a 37mm gun.
??? I never claimed that it would. I have consistently argued that the Typhoons were almost completely ineffective in the anti-tank role.

Fine, but the NS-37 carried no tugsten core so the penetration were much less than the german weapon, and no to mention the heavy stress and vibration wich tranfered to the IL-2 wooden wings.

The vibration caused a very spread pattern of ammo so the 37mm NS was found very poor in accuracy by the russian pilots.

As you might know the BK-37 included a hidro pneumatic shock absorver wich dampened condiderabely the recoil tranfered to the Gustav wings.....wich were by far more strong than the Ilyushin attack craft.

No argument with that - I was comparing the guns rather than the mountings, and the NS-37 was a much better aircraft gun. The ammunition also developed a higher muzzle energy. The Russians did have tungsten-cored 37mm ammo, although I have not seen any evidence that it was used in the NS-37.

Wing-mounted guns were fundamentally less accurate than fuselage-mounted ones, because of the distance between the guns and the sights. The exact point of impact of the projectiles, compared with the sights, would vary much more with range than with fuselage-mounted ones.

Wich mean it can penetrate any tank in russian service with the exception of the JS-2 in the frontal arc.
Theoretical penetration was often much better than was achieved in practice, for a variety of reasons. The Ju 87G started with a gun harmonisation range of about 400m, but by the end Rudel was zeroing his guns at only 100m - which gave him only a tiny fraction of a second to fire before he had to pull up to avoid crashing into his target. He would only have taken such risks because he found that firing at longer ranges was no longer effective - and his usual mode of attack was from the rear, so that (as he put it) if his plane was damaged, he was already flying back to the safety of his own lines.

And penetration does not equal destruction. The penetrating core of the 37mm Hartkern munition was quite small, and had to hit something vital after penetration to knock out a tank. There is an interesting account of an attack by Hurricane IID anti-tank planes (armed with two 40mm Vickers S guns) on some light tanks in North Africa. Several of the tank crews abandoned their vehicles and took cover. After the attack, they found that the tanks had holes punched in the armour, but had otherwise suffered no serious damage, so they got back in and drove away!

In the handbüch de Bordwaffenmunition the BK just appear to had 2 bullets tipe, a HE and the Hartkern, no mention to tha steel core ammo. The pictures I have seems to confirm that.
That source is very useful but not comprehensive. The only ammunition specifically designed for the BK 3,7 was the Hartkern - but the guns could use any of the ammo for the FlaK gun, such as the HE and other types of AP.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Panzerknacker

02-25-2007, 03:50 PM

Is good hear that from you because, some Typhoon pilots ( like Clostermanns ) claim destroted tanks like candy.

For example for many years some historians had climed that the Witmanns Tiger 1 was destroyed when a rocket "penetrated his armor" ...:shock: :shock: ...with no hEAT charge and a slow velocity how ?

I just see tugsten core russian ammo for the 14,5mm rifles in ww2.

In my opinion the best armonization for the BK-3,7 is between 200-250
meters.

In here you can see a Ju-87g strafing his target, the distance is far from 100 meters.

http://www.zippyvideos.com/6793226073671326/ju-87_vs_js-2/

I think that I will be able to find there some intriguing pictures about our common theme – factual armor-piercing efficiency of those 3,7 cm Bordkannone guns too. Till then – all the best

Post it as fast you can.

Tony Williams

02-25-2007, 04:10 PM

I just see tugsten core russian ammo for the 14,5mm rifles in ww2.

The Russian 45mm, 57mm and 76mm tank guns had tungsten-cored ammo as well.

The pic below (from the Ammo Photo Gallery on my website) shows various types of tungsten-cored subcalibre tank/anti-tank ammo (British, German and Russian) from WW2. The 45mm is second left, the 57mm far right:

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/SubcalAmmo.jpg

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Panzerknacker

02-25-2007, 04:36 PM

Right but this calibers were not used in aircrafts guns.

Tony Williams

02-26-2007, 02:51 AM

Right but this calibers were not used in aircrafts guns.

Actually some 45mm and 57mm aircraft guns did see experimental/limited use (eg the NS-45, used in the Yak-9K). Russian 37mm tungsten-cored projectiles have been found, but as I said I have no information about whether they were ever used in the NS-37.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Panzerknacker

02-26-2007, 06:31 PM

Actually some 45mm and 57mm aircraft guns did see experimental/limited use

My sources were wrong then. :neutral:

Panzerknacker

06-22-2007, 07:13 PM

Rudel s last Flight:

The Surrender of S.G. 2, 8 May 1945

On 8 May 1945, Kitzingen airfield in Germany was home to the Republic P-47s of the 405th FG, but before the day was out, it was also to be the home of a number of Luftwaffe Ju 87s and FW 190s. Oberst Hans-Ulrich Rudel's Schlachtgeschwader 2 had continued to support German ground forces in the east until the final days of the war, but with hostilities to cease on 8 May 1945, and facing capture by the Russians, Oberst Rudel and his unit decided to try to reach the West.

Oberst Hans-Ulrich Rudel's last aircraft, Ju 87 G-2 W.Nr 494 110 'Black <- + -' crashed and surrounded by Americans at Kitzingen, 8 May 1945

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Stab and II./S.G. 2 were based at Kummer, in northern Bohemia, I./S.G. 2 was in Austria, and III./S.G. 2 was near Prague. The I. and III.Gruppe both escaped westwards. Although the Stab and II./S.G. 2 had few serviceable aircraft, it was decided to fly as many men out as possible, while a vehicle convoy would try to reach the west with the rest of the unit's personnel. This ground column was later attacked and destroyed, with few survivors.[1] But this was in the future when

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http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/kitzingen.htm