Night Fighters

[Twitch1]

Henk- I never met Reh but did meet the Wilde Sau commander Hajo Hermann and another night fighter pilot Jacob Jabs. Great stories! Both were really characters in their younger days.

No problem changing the topic as I'm done defending every small piece of research and information I've ever gatherered and received from the likes of men like Hermann, Galland or whomever, who were actually there. I am done looking up passages and stats in one of my over 600 books and wartime documents on WW 2. I'm sick of hearing a comment when mentioning the Me 262 like, "oh, you know the early Jumo engines were no good," as if to always cast aspersions on non-Allied technological innovation.

Henk on the topic of Wilde Sau- what is your impression of the Uhu?

[HG]

Now that was a great night fighter and on the first night it fought it shot down 8 Lancasters and was also verry fast and allso was verry streamlined. The only problem is that they was too late and to few and did not see a lot of action. I love the UHU and would just love to see one in person.

Adolf Galland once shot down a South African fighter pilot who fought for the RAF and he got burned verry badly and everyone thought he was dead but he was found and thus survived. After the war Adolf Galland traced everyone he shot sown and thus found the South African and they became great friends but when the South African died Adolf Galland said he lost a great friend and that it was hard for him. Did you know about it?

What kind of job do you do?

Henk

[Man of Stoat]

Was the Me262 ever used as a night fighter? There was a night fighter prototype, with two seats, but it is debatable as to whether they ever saw combat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_262

[Firefly]

While I dont doubt you knowledge Twitch and never have, I do think differently to you regarding German weapons.

I believe that they went in too many directions, I'm not even saying the Allies didnt, but for Germany it just hastened the end.

Why build the A-4 when they could have used the resources to build more fighters, or bombers or tanks? We can all wonder at the technology used in them and have all benefitted from a lot of that technology, but in the end it did nothing for the Germans. The A4 did not shorten the war by 1 second and probably killed more slave labourers than allies.

As for other things like the Me-262. I dont discount them either, but we have already had discussions about how flimsy their engines were compared to allied Jets.

And finally there is the Supertanks like the JagdTiger, they were a tremendous investment for a negative return.

In sum, I dont discount all German inventions in ww2, I do discount their need for the German war effort at that time. All of this of course brought about by the system the Nazis used throughout the war.

In my opinion there is always too much talk about Nazi wonderweapons and not enough about good old Allied logistics, if the Nazis had made a standardised super truck they may have had a better chance.

[HG]

I do not know if the Me-262 night fighter ever saw combat but I did see a original at the Military Museum in Johannesburg South Africa. They got it after the war and it's information siad it did saw combat in 1944 and had all it's armament still in it and had the Lichtenstein night radar installed. It is one of the verry few night fighters still left in the world and there was a offer to buy the aircraft from the museum but they did not want to sell it.

Yes, the Nazis did waste a lot of cash on the rong stuff like most people think, but it did pave the way to the future of aircraft and rockets. The Me-262 did have problems with it's engines but you must take in cosideration that they did not have the material to make a reliable engine like the Allies. The Horten 229 flying wing allso provide very good info to the designers of the B-2 bomber. They did waste a lot of time but in the end they helped the designers of past war technolagy.

The Allies had everything at their desposel and thus could do what they wanted with it. The Germans made great stuff wich the Allies did not even think of and the Germans took a gap wich no one els saw to be a great idea. Well the fact is that the misstakes of the Nazis later became sucsess after the war.

The Nazis made great things but they did not have man power nor did they have the right material to make evertything work propperly, so always remember that the things they did do was great for its time.

The tanks was in their own way great like the Tiger 1 and King Tiger and the Panther, but did have problems.

Too much, too late.

Nice pic Firefly. What happend to the P-51?

Henk

[Twitch1]

Henk- yeah some 2-seat Me 262Bs made it into service with the Wilde Sau unit. One in a museum is rare indeed. No wonder they want to keep it. While the radar array drag lowered speed by 37MPH it was made up for with the Shräge Musik arrangement of 2 Mk 108 aft of the cockpit. A B-2a was fitted with centimetric radar that did away with the external antenna that would have given back 30MPH but war ended before tested.

As for the He 219 I only have input from one pilot who said it had sort of a high landing speed and was a bit touchy in that respect but the 2- 20mm MK 151s, 2-30mm Mk 108 and 2- 30mm Mk 103s made up for it. He only scored 2 kills in the end of the war but said with the firepower of the Uhu all he did was jab the triggers, not hold them down as the weapons fired a couple rounds each. That was more than enough to bring down a Lancaster.

[pdf27]

Weapons like the A-4 may not have been viable to YOUR way of thinking but the Germans made it work through development and constant experimentation. NOTHING suceeds without constant trial. The 1000s killed by missiles probably thought they worked well enough to be quite efficient as weapons in the short term they enjoyed use. Also they were primary building blocks upon which the entire world's aerospace industry was born.
Through constant experimentation and a huge expenditure of resources, the Germans developed something that could throw a relatively small amount of explosives a moderate distance at a fairly high cost in material. It didn't actually succeed in doing anything of value however - a significant number of civillians were killed, as well as some service personnell on leave. The biggest effect it had on the war was diverting allied bombers to hit places like Peenemunde and the launch sites instead of other targets. When your biggest contribution is acting as a target, you have to question exactly what the hell you're trying to do.
As for "primary building blocks on which the entire world's aerospace industry was born", you're really barking up the wrong tree here. Had you tried to argue that the V-2 was a critical link in the space exploration chain you might have had a chance, but to argue that it was the base of the aero industry as well (and aerospace specifically relates to anything that flies) is a joke. Even if you argue that it was critical to the space race you're ignoring historical facts like the work of Goddard in the US before the war, and the subsequent work of the likes of Korolev (?sp) in the USSR. My personal view of the V-2 is that it's biggest impact on the space race was in publicity terms - it got people thinking about rockets as a reality, not a theory. The engineering involved is conceptually not that hard - the V-2 is about as simple as liquid fuelled rockets get, while the later ones met massively greater problems.

The Me-262 did have problems with it's engines but you must take in cosideration that they did not have the material to make a reliable engine like the Allies.
True to an extent - it would be very difficult even today to make a good, reliable engine with reasonable performance using the tooling and materials available at the time to the Germans. The problem is that when the Russians tried to copy and develop the German jets after the war with effectively unlimited access to raw materials they found that the engines were inherently a dead end. They proved incapable of reaching anything like the reliability of Allied wartime engines (the peacetime engines were an order of magnitude more reliable), and the Russians completely failed to manage to get more power out of them. Evolutionarily they were a dead end - the concept of axial flow was good, but required a whole lot of design knowledge and technology that simply didn't exist to make it work safely and efficiently. This was exactly where Whittle showed himself to be a genius and A.A. Griffifth merely very clever indeed - Whittle recognised that axial flow jets couldn't be built in time for the end of the war and worked on what could be, while Griffifth kept concentrating on the ideal engine.

[Man of Stoat]

By the way, Henk, the Uhu shot down five Lancaster is on its first sortie, not eight.

http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/heinkel_219.htmhttp://www.airpages.ru/cgi-bin/epg.pl?nav=lw50&page=he219http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_219

[Cuts]

Now that Me-262 was a great night fighter and on the first night it fought it shot down 8 Lancasters...

...

I do not know if the Me-262 night fighter ever saw combat...

...

Ok, I'm confused, isn't there a bit of an anomaly here ?

[HG]

Firstly I would like to appolagise it was 5 Lancasters and not 8.

Cuts I never wrote that the Me-262 was a great night fighter because I did not know if it ever have combat status. So do not Quote stuff I never said.

I would like to appolagise again for my misstake.

Henk

[Cuts]

Firstly I would like to appolagise it was 5 Lancasters and not 8.

Cuts I never wrote that the Me-262 was a great night fighter because I did not know if it ever have combat status. So do not Quote stuff I never said.

I would like to appolagise again for my misstake.

Henk

My apologies are in order HG, I thought that you meant the Me 262 as that a/c was mentioned in the posts immediately prior to and following the one I quoted.
After reading your last I believe you meant the He219A.


Lekker Kersfees mikey !

[HG]

It is all in order Cuts and a Lekker Kersfees for you to. It was wonderful christmas in South Africa hope you enjoyed yours and to everyone reading this.

Henk

[FluffyBunnyGB]

any chance a moderatorly type could split this thread into one about U boats, and a newish one about nightfighters?

Thanks

Fluffy

[Firefly]

any chance a moderatorly type could split this thread into one about U boats, and a newish one about nightfighters?

Thanks

Fluffy

Done....

[Twitch1]

Henk- if you are in South Africa do you know of a museum that has on display a 109 that Hans Marsielle flew? I can't recall if it was numbered white 6 of whatever but was probably a G model in the standard tan desert camo color.

[Dani]

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/4408/saxwol031uc.jpg

No, it isn't a G model, but Bf 109F-2/TROP, WN 31010 :wink:

Source for picture (http://www.geocities.com/sadf_scrapbook/saxwol.html)

Infos about the museum (http://www.militarymuseum.co.za/)

[Dani]

Another picture:
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/3756/bf109fsouthafrica6hz.jpg

According to this site (http://www.preservedaxisaircraft.com), "often quoted W.Nr. 31010 is incorrect".

So, if Henk isn't so far from Johannesburg, he could check easily.

[HG]

Sorry FluffyBunnyGB it will be done. Twitch1 I I do not know if we have a his Me-109 but I will try and find out for you.

I am about 1400 km away from Johannesburg the coust about 500 km away from Cape Town in a town called George, but I have been to the museum and I unfortuanatly did not fotograf this aircraft but there are one outside that I did fotograf that crashed in the dessert. It does not have its guns anymore and it's tail is also gone but has a number two on it in red and it's got a head of a Devil that is grey wit a red smilewith a yellow nose and grey body with green on the wings and on the top part of the aft section. It does not have a connopyand the wings are lose. If you wnt pictures just E-mail me at hggreeff@yahoo.co.uk and I will try and send it to you with some pictures of the last tru Me-262 two seater nightfiter 'Red 8' operated with Kurt Welter's 10./NJG II at Magdeburg. It is a Messerschmitt Me 262B-1a/U1, Werke Nummer: 110305.

It is a exelent museum and I would recomend it to anyone who come to South Africa.

Sorry again.

Henk

[Twitch1]

Yeah Dani I think that's the one. Thanks!
Henk- I'd like those 262 pics and will e-mail you. The wrecked 109 outside the museum- any slim possibility there is anything worth salvage? I'd imagine the few 109s left could use parts. For that matter if even part of the fuelage is useable there are folks with enough $$ willing to rebuild and use old sections as patterns for rebuilding. There are supposedly 3 old/new Zeros that are flyable which began as sorry wrecks.

[HG]

Well I think that it is possiable that it can be salvaged but they will not sell it. The thing is that the Brtittish mostly took it appart and thus I so not know if the engine are still useable. Most of the WW2 stuff there are stuff they got from the UK via ship after the war and some of them are theonly of its tipe in South Africa. So for them to sell any of it will be very hard indeed.

Henk

[HG]

Here is the pictures of the Me-262 two seater night fighterof the Johannesburg Museum and the Heinkel 219.

http://img307.imageshack.us/img307/9022/me262nightfightersac3na.jpg

The following pictures was taken in 1945 or 1946 when it arrived in Johannesburg from the UK.

http://img321.imageshack.us/img321/4159/me262nightfightersab7hl.jpg

http://img317.imageshack.us/img317/817/me262nightfightersaa2tl.jpg

The cannopy.

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/7804/me262nightfigtera2ft.jpg

Then I have pictures of the Heinkel 219 that I got from LuftArchiv.de and then I have a 3D view.

http://img323.imageshack.us/img323/7767/he219b2wi.jpg

http://img316.imageshack.us/img316/3889/he219d8ma.jpg

http://img318.imageshack.us/img318/9707/he219e9xm.jpg

http://img344.imageshack.us/img344/7598/he219inflighta4pr.jpg

http://img324.imageshack.us/img324/9067/he219nightfighters8zn.gif

http://img324.imageshack.us/img324/1656/he219a7aa.jpg

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/2347/he219a2uj.jpg

http://img271.imageshack.us/img271/3415/he2193d8pv.jpg

Henk

[Dani]

Off topic:
Henk, before posting, hit preview to check if all is in order.
I edited your post because you placed the images as follows:
[/img]link
instead of
[img]link

[HG]

I was in such a rush I did not notice that but thank you Dani for correcting my misstake. I will do so next time.

Henk

[Twitch1]

Swell images of the Uhu!!!http://www.websmileys.com/sm/fingers/fing34.gif

[HG]

Thank you Twitch.

Henk

[Firefly]

The Owl was good, it even managed to hold its own with the Mosquito, which was no mean feat. But as usual, too late to affect anything.

The Me262 night fighter was pretty lame though, the usual waste of resources.

Also the Germans never did quite get the airborne radar right and their cumbersome arrays affected the aircraft performance, unlike the British radars that were enclosed.

In my opinion the Mosquito is the best Night Fighter of the war bar none:

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/1854/mosquitobnf55wr.jpg

[HG]

Yes, I have read that the Mosquito was the best night fighter of WW2, but the Ju-88 night fighter was also a great night fighter and I do not know about the German Radar being shitty. The Allies learned a lot from German night radar because it was way ahead of the rest of the worlds night fighter radar.

Henk

[Firefly]

No Henk, the British Night fighter radar led the World. Once you have plowed through this, come back with your opinion?

http://www.vectorsite.net/ttwiz.html

[Panzerknacker]

Is interesting that Schnaufer achieved his victories flying entirely in the "old" Bf-110.

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/6352/skyhawk12908kr.jpg

[HG]

Because he had great radar. :D :D British land radar was fantastic but in the air the Germans ruled.

Henk

[1000ydstare]

What was a unorthodox design was the modification for the either the Bf 110 or either the 109/190, in which vertically firing cannon were mounted, 4 i think, behind the cockpit.

The plane was not then bound to get in to the formation of bombers, but simply fly fast underneath the target, firing straight in to the belly of the plane from tail to nose.

I don't know if they were ever used, or how successful they were if they were used.

Anyone else know more about this particular modification? I can't find much data on it.

[HG]

Yes, they were used by fighters and by night fighters. I do not know if they was verry sucsessful or not. What I do know is that the backwards fireing was not sucsessful and wile testing it was proved verry difficult to aim it.

Henk

[pdf27]

I don't know if they were ever used, or how successful they were if they were used.

Anyone else know more about this particular modification? I can't find much data on it.
From memory it was called Schräge Musik (Jazz Music, and no I have no idea why) and was in pretty widespread use by the end of the war.

[pdf27]

Because he had great radar. :D :D British land radar was fantastic but in the air the Germans ruled.

Henk
Nope. The UK was just overly paranoid about the Germans capturing their sets so the Mosquito intruders they sent to fight the German Nightfighters only had obselete radar sets for nearly all the war. They were still at least as good as anything the Germans had in squadron service.

[Firefly]

Because he had great radar. :D :D British land radar was fantastic but in the air the Germans ruled.

Henk

You didnt read the link then?

[HG]

Just joking firefly. I am still plowing through it it is very long. I can now start to understand what you are saying.

Henk

[Firefly]

I don't know if they were ever used, or how successful they were if they were used.

Anyone else know more about this particular modification? I can't find much data on it.
From memory it was called Schräge Musik (Jazz Music, and no I have no idea why) and was in pretty widespread use by the end of the war.

Yep Jazz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%A4ge_Musik) consisted of 20 mm cannon slanted to fire just above and in front of the Night Fighter.



The tactic was to go for the engines and wings, pretty deadly and efficient.

[Firefly]

Just joking firefly. I am still plowing through it it is very long. I can now start to understand what you are saying.

Henk

OK mate, remember UK Radar was internal, German radar was big and external and compromised the aircraft.

[Panzerknacker]

The Schräge Musik was not installed in the Fw-190.

A pic of the instalation in a Do-217N, 4 x 20 mm MG-151.

http://www.histavia21.net/MAN217/210.jpg


And the revi gunsight used to aim.

http://www.histavia21.net/MAN217/221.jpg

[Twitch1]

The Japanese employed an identical cannon layout on several of their fighters also.

[HG]

Yes, Twitch I have seen some of them.

Henk

[Twitch1]

Probably the most potent was the Kawasaki KI.45 Toryu "Nick." :)

[festamus]

Anyone know if attempts were ever made to carry R4M's on night fighters?

[Firefly]

Anyone know if attempts were ever made to carry R4M's on night fighters?

I havent, but the reason may have been that you have to get in awfully close in a WW2 Nightfighter before firing.

I wonder if Germany got its ideas from the Soviet RS-82?

[Twitch1]

Wilde Sau leader, Hajo Hermann never mentioned it in our conversation but I never directly asked if they were used either..........

[Firefly]

When you interviewed him, did he say anything about his idea's to instigate suicide attacks on the allies?

Also, as a Lawyer he has defended such notables as David Irving and denies that Germany even started the War, did you ask him about this at all. I'm very interested in these things indeed and would be gratefull for any info.

[1000ydstare]

I IIRC Hitler himself was very much against this suicide tactic. I believe in the end he decided the descision should be up to the individual.

How did you get to meet Herr Hermann, Twitch?

[Twitch1]

Hermann along with many top aces of many countries cused to come to the US for symposiums and functions with interested parties. I had access to him on a couple occassions the day before when I prety much asked him whatever I wished.

Sorry, we did not, however, discuss the possibility of night fighter suicide tactics.

[Firefly]

I think he advocated day fighter suicide tactics. Did you ask him about denying the fact that germany started the war?

[Twitch1]

Hermann was pro suicide attacks on the bomber stream but Hanna Reitsch was quite radical on the subject. Both exported their ideas whenever possible. Only ardent Nazis liked the idea. Galland was against the idea and would hear none of it from Hermann. Even Hitler forbid Luftwaffe pilots to do kamikazis. There evolved Rammjaeger- "rammer" squadrons and the idea of ramming a heavily armored fighter into a bomber attempting to slice off the tail and bail out to survive was grim at best. In one op relatively green pilots used up a lot of Bf 109Ks and their lives in such attacks.

I would never ask anyone on the "other side" about starting the war. That is a disrespectful, leading question only to be answered if someone offered up their points of view on the subject of their own volition.

[Firefly]

Its a pity you didnt ask him, I would have, not disrespectfull at all. In all I have read he is convinced that Germany didnt start the war. I would have liked to know why he thought this?

I am still searching for his reasons, any help is much obliged.

[1000ydstare]

Info on the Sturmstaffel 1 unit home of the Rammjäger.

http://members.aol.com/Panzrbaer2/ss1.html

Interesting to note the armour was not placed in to aid ramming but to provide armour to the pilot.

The pilots of Sturmstaffel 1 flew FW 190 fighter aircraft modified with additional armor around the cockpit. This modification was later incorporated as a standard factory installation to the FW-190 series A-6, A-7, and A-8. The pilots initially wore specially-designed steel helmets, but these were found to be impractical during high-speed maneuvering.

Each pilot of Sturmstaffel 1 signed an oath that he would shoot down at least one bomber per mission or, as a last resort, ram an enemy bomber. Thus was born the Rammjäger (Ramming Fighters). In practice, there may have been only one case in which a Sturmstaffel 1 pilot intentionally rammed a bomber, but due to their close-in tactics, many unintentional collisions did occur.

Their death rates....
A total of 36 pilots flew with Sturmstaffel 1, a squadron which normally had 14 pilots on the roster at any given time. 30 of those pilots died in action, two have died since the war, and four survived to attend the reunion.

also from www.freenet.de/freenet/wissenschaft/ pm_specials/kamikaze/04.html
Suicide as war weapon  for European a strange conception. When the aviator Hannah Reitsch tried to make Hitler tasty the employment of German Selbstmordschwadronen otherwise by any means the zimperliche dictator did not react rejecting. He regarded the Kamikaze employments of the Japanese as indication of almost despair.

Thus it approved only a "Rammjaeger" project in such a way specified, whose task was it to ram hostile airplanes with German machines. nevertheless so, the pilots would have Hitler's appeasing thesis with the collision a chance to save itself with the parachute.

On 7 April 1945 120 ramming hunters started against 1800 US combat aircraft. A disaster: Only 15 hunters returned from the attack, from the remaining survived straight still 28 pilots. The American losses were with eight machines. Goebbels wrote into its diary: "the first employment of our ramming hunters did not lead to the success, which we had promised ourselves of it."

The above source is a bit ropey.

From some sort of History DVD.

Berlin, 18 February 1943: In the sport palace realm propaganda Minister Goebbels swears the listeners in on the "total war". But that is for the Germans already long cruel reality. For night the allied bomber fleets fly and destroy night into the realm area a city after the other one.

The Air Force guidance reacts with the structure of night interception relays. First the German pilots without aids try to seek out the "flying fortresses". Among Colonels Kammhuber headlights do not point the way to the hunters the "light night interception" are crowned from success nevertheless. With the "led night interception" a fighter controller from the soil leads pursuit over radio. Finally the hunters are equipped with radar, until during the operation "Gomorrha", a series of air raids on Hamburg in July 1943, which allied 30 cm long tin-foil tapes throw off, which make a radar detection impossible.

Colonel Hajo Hermann counters with the "wild sow": Night interception without guidance and without consideration for the own Flak. Eyes and instinct of the pilots are now the most important night-vision devices. Parallel the Germans develop the SN-2-Geraet "deer antlers" the notionless British against the tin-foil tapes lose on 30 April 1944 at one night of 95 bombers.

In the east the Russians advance, in the west fail the Ardennenoffensive. Ramming hunters are to get the bombers of the sky. With the spectacular command "Elbe 45 2,000 ramming hunters are to ascend at one blow" in March '. But it is missing at pilots and machines, so that on 7 April only 130 ramming hunters are used, that ram 24 bombers.

The film shows singular, partially unpublished material, high-decorated pilots and many other eye-witnesses.


Found World War Two Fighters Forum. Here http://ww2fighters.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=1584&pid=10114&mode=threaded&show=&st=& the site is full of gimps mind...

check out this for a signature (a guy called "TimeBandit")

http://webpages.charter.net/timebandit/Miscpics/FWBsigimage.gif
Oh surrrre! It's all fun and games, until someone gets a wing blown off!

Or this from the signature of "Ramjeager"!!!
see WW2FF
http://mattmartin.us/post/2005signature.gif
My lifestyle determines my deathstyle - Metallica

Those of you, who are interested in playing games or talking to people who really know their stuff on planes may wish to give them a whirl.

Edited for personal reasons.

[1000ydstare]

Twitch wrote:
I would never ask anyone on the "other side" about starting the war. That is a disrespectful, leading question only to be answered if someone offered up their points of view on the subject of their own volition.

How is that twitch? Historians do it all the time. Otherwise we would have pretty slanted views on the start of all wars wouldn't we?

[Twitch1]

I ask aces questions of air combat and details about their aircraft and weaponry. "Did you dump flaps in tight turning combat with the 109? How many cranks did it take to raise the wheels with the manual retractor? What particular enemy aircraft did you not like to go up against and why?" These are the things that readers care about- the esoterica of air combat. It's a rather moot point to ask question we already know the answer to.

[1000ydstare]

True, although how many cranks doesn't really bother me that much, but a person whose beliefs are so at odds with what we believe should surely be asked why he believes such things.

[Twitch1]

That's YOUR choice. It wasn't mine when we talked. It had nothing to do with Wilde Sau tactics.

[HG]

Well well well, 1000ydstare I think and I know that if we all thought alike it would be bull. Now I do not think that we all are the perfect person on this earth and we are not have the right to judge anyone because we are not perfect, or are we all? No, we are not.

That is what makes everyone of us who we are and no one can change this.

Henk

[1000ydstare]

Well, i didn't suggest you judge him. You can just ask questions. He may be able to put forward a perfectly logical reason. Maybe he believes that teh Poles kicked it off, or International Zionism or the space goats. Who knows.

Just ask him on his views. Yes we are all different. But like I say I would have been more interested in his views on the start of the war than how many cranks to lift a flap.

[pdf27]

Just ask him on his views. Yes we are all different. But like I say I would have been more interested in his views on the start of the war than how many cranks to lift a flap.
Besides which there will be enough preserved aircraft lying around that you can go and test how many cranks to lift a flap. Things such as the view that alien space goats started WW2 will be lost when the person whose mind they are in dies.

[Twitch1]

Geez Henk, nobody gets it. Just forget it man! Why bother? Everything on this board gets picked apart obsessively simply for the sake of it. I interview the aces of Russian, Germany, Britain and the US for my needs with my questions about combat, not politics. But it seems that's not good enough. If anyone else desires to ask aces questions go ahead. Oops! Many are dead now so you can't but I have their tapes. Hehehe!

[1000ydstare]

Twitch wrote:
If anyone else desires to ask aces questions go ahead. Oops! Many are dead now so you can't but I have their tapes. Hehehe!

Which sort of reinforces pdf's point, doesn't it. Many WW1 vets were interviewed by the BBC not so long ago. They all volunteered to be questioned and were questioned about some things that made them weep. The reason why was to get as much information as possible about the War before the last of the died.

Even if this makes you feel uncomfortable, it does me, this information has now been saved for future generations, who will never meet such men.

[Firefly]

Geez Henk, nobody gets it. Just forget it man! Why bother? Everything on this board gets picked apart obsessively simply for the sake of it. I interview the aces of Russian, Germany, Britain and the US for my needs with my questions about combat, not politics. But it seems that's not good enough. If anyone else desires to ask aces questions go ahead. Oops! Many are dead now so you can't but I have their tapes. Hehehe!

I take it that you are a wargamer and not a real historian, I have read many of your articles and although they seem well researched, they do lack substance and references. I see your specialisation in Flight Sims, so I see why you have concentrated on arial subjects.

What Flight Sims do you play, as I too dabble in flight Sims, when I'm not flying for real.

[Twitch1]

I have written over 250 articles of all sorts about war games, autos, various real wars and combat therein. Yeah I specialize in air combat. So? I have many hours of interview tapes with aces from Germany, Russia, Britain, and simply tons from US aces. I don't mess with flight sims. When I was paid to do it I did it. You know bub for a moderator you're a real dredge being as bigoted as you are. If you feel you must attempt to anger me by your quite childish insinuations feel free. I could care less what you think of my work. Once again opinions. Almost every article that has been published of mine has been accompanied by lengthy bibliographies. Even when some one is finally acknowledged right the posts are worded to show how the poster is "more right" however.

The attempt to forcefully project points of view into questions I "should have" asked top ranking aces is simply bizarre. How does anyone get off with that? That's just nitpicky bullcrap and you know it! Like the insidious disecting of commonly known statements like the one about a few 30mms taking out a bomber.

I really don't want to discuss anything with some of the most rude, stubborn and opinionated people here. I've made that clear and I'm simply ignoring those future posts. There are plenty of friendly and interesting people that don't attempt to shove their education degrees down others throats. Tell me why I should be impressed by a kid that just fell off the turnip truck with a sheepskin when he attempts to degrade men with decades of designing successful aircraft. How many aircraft are any of these modern know-it-all geniuses personally responsible for?

Simple topics are turned into never-ending harangues of rhetorical crap just because people want the last word. The penchant some have for relentlessly picking apart anyone's posts is just lame. Playing with words has become some peoples' permanent pass time so they can 'AHA! I caught you in a miniscule error!' Get lives will you people.

Most of us here do not want confrontations, arguements and people constantly correcting everything we write. This alluding to the fact that some here who choose to discuss a legitimate named topic like 'German Military' are some sort nazi lovers is just sick people. Those that don't want to participate in topics of German things should make the conscious decision to avoid the topic if it upsets them. It's one thing to mention that many German aero designs laid the ground works for future Allied ones after the war and quite another to say 'I love the nazi phlosophy.' Please separate the 2 before going off on us.

As I've said several times before several of us wish to discuss some subjects without derogatory comment, something that it seems is too much to ask considering that every post is pounced upon to be disected for minutia and be corrected by some obscure source on the web since obviously few here have any printed material and are forced to believe the hogwash that anyone can post on a website as fact. I guess you're a "real historian" by doing that. We'd just appreciated being left alone.

The fact that you constantly step outside the role as neutral moderator shows how absolutely juvenile you are. It is offensive to me and I'm certain to others here.

[1000ydstare]

Twitch you are also one of the biggest pedants on the site!!!

Anyway, what are some of these 250 articles you have written. What magazines/books?

Just because someone doesn't immediatly shout "yes, Twitch, you are all knowing on the subject of aircraft!!!" doesn't mean they are childish or bigoted. You have presented no sources to back your claims, you have claimed that the internet is not reliable as a resource, I would say it is. Yet you have not presented any book titles or ISBNs to back them up either.

All you allude to is unsubstantiated "interviews" with "aces", in which you seem to glean only information that could probably be sourced from the planes manual.

Firefly has proven time and time again that he is suitable to be a mod, otherwise he wouldn't be one. He was put forward by the members of this site, and given his mod status by the mods and admin staff of this site. And you are who to dispute this?

Get a grip.

[Dani]

Twitch, for any complaints against a mod you should PM me or better to the admins (FW-190 Pilot and Gen. Sandworm).

It was a bad move from your side to express openly your anger I'd say.

As for your affirmation
I really don't want to discuss anything with some of the most rude, stubborn and opinionated people here. I've made that clear and I'm simply ignoring those future posts. bear in your mind that as you judge others, others might judge you.

and be corrected by some obscure source on the web since obviously few here have any printed material and are forced to believe the hogwash that anyone can post on a website as fact
:lol: :lol: :lol: I remmber that you posted once about BMW Flugelrad and I found the source of your post (http://tanks45.tripod.com/Jets45/Histories/BMW-Fv1/BMW-V1.htm). With a simple copy and paste you made a post here without any reference. When I pointed out, you preffered to remain silent.

Did you published any book? I'll be interested to read at least a brochure written by you. (Internet articles doesn't count :wink: ) Why don't you want to publish (not on the internet, of course) your interviews?

I doubt that you are a real historian You just liked to be told historian. A historian argue, not ignore others. A historian remains calm not responds in an offensive way.

It is my first and last request to you: respect others instead of replying so angry. So far, you are starting to look very similar to IRONMAN for me.

Kindest regards,
Dani

P.S. I apologise for spelling/grammar mistakes. Obviously English is not my native language.

[Dani]

Now I found that post. Read carefully (including my edit) http://www.ww2incolor.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=34440#34440

[Twitch1]

Excuse me Dani, but reading that again- no I did not cut and paste it from that website. My original source that lead to the concise data is from a now crumbling old book-

Bergaust, Erich
Hitler's Secrets Revealed published in 1956

[1000ydstare]

So basically at some point, someone may have copied the book to that page. Thus the internet will contain information that you could use to back up your posts. And not as factually desolate as you would believe and have us believe.

Or

You are a plagerist, copy and pasting from sites without reference, to some how prove you are greatly knowledged on the subject of aircraft.

Your choice.

[Firefly]

Twitch

I dont care either way what your opinion of me is.

You decided to join this Forum. And no matter what you say, it is a Forum. You should expect to have your every post dissected and laid bare as you are not dealing with a bunch of 15 year old know knothing kids.

You have already dismissed the thoughts of at least 3 qualified aircraft engineers who merely commented on your posts about German future aircraft.

Also, you seem to firmly believe that because the ME-262 shot down 150 aircraft during the whole war that it was a really significant part of it.

I would say that you really need to take a reality check here! If you dont want comments on your posts, dont write them, as this is why this Forum exists, if you simply want to post stuff without comment then send Henk a PM.

[1000ydstare]

Your posts, like everybody elses, on this forum will be checked by people who may have more knowledge or a different point of view.

Read some of mine on Yamato thread, I was slightly off on some of my opinions or knowledge and have been put right. And I didn't throw a pre-pubescent paddy about how no one should be commenting on what I say or think.

Like Firefly says, we are not clueless 15 year olds, that you can large it in front of. If you are wrong we will tell you. Learn from this feedback (negative, postitive and neutral) and you will expand your knowledge.

Ciao

[HG]

Fighting, fighting, fighting and fighting. No boys dint your mammas teach you to play nice. :D :D

I found this on a Website about the Me-262 nigtfighter here in Johannesburg, South Africa and they show more detail of the aircraft.

They give the History of the aircraft and I must correct myself because the aircraft was not brought here in 1945 or 1946. THis is what they say.

"After completed trials, Red 8 was shipped to South Africa on 23 February 1947, arriving at Cape Town on 17 March. Amazingly, it survived in storage until the late-1960s when it was taken over by the museum.

This important aircraft was restored for display in 1971 and has been a crown exhibit of the Johannesburg museum since 1972."

Here is the link to the site.

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2002/04/stuff_eng_detail_me262b.htm#links

To get to the pictures go to down the page and there at the end you will see Me-262 in detail there you will see the links to the pictures.

Enjoy.

Henk[/img]

[Twitch1]

Sounds like that plane could be brought back to flying condition if one wanted to and had enough money.....

[HG]

I think it can be done, but I do not think that the museum would allow it. They will hold on to it for dear live.

NOTE: The pictures of the plane is quite old and was taken before the aircraft was restored.

Henk

[FluffyBunnyGB]

Did I dream it, or has someone managed to get a 262 flying again?

I'm sure I saw something fairly recently about one.

[HG]

Yes, but they are replicas and not the real thing. They build a Two seater Me-262 and a singel seater fighter.

Here is their website.

http://www.stormbirds.com/project/

Henk

[FluffyBunnyGB]

Thanks Henk

Within the classic car world we are quite used to replicas of real machines that are either too valuable to race, or perhaps no longer exist, so I see nothing wrong with making replicas of planes as well.

Here is a Lancia D 50 (none left, so some replicas have been built)

http://www.barchetta.cc/All.Ferraris/images/0373/lancia-d50-r-4.jpg

A 1936 Auto Union Type C replica

http://www.germancarfans.com/classics/5040409.001/5040409.001.1M.jpg

A 1938 Auto Union Type D replica

http://www.dyna.co.za/cars/AU-D38-Front.jpg

All the above were built AFAIK as there were no originals left anywhere.

Other replicas are built because the originals are far too expensive for race use (although that doesn't stop some brave souls!) or there are just not enough to satisfy demand. My all time favourite car is the Aston Martin DB4 GT Zagato.

http://www.astonmartins.com/db4_5_6_s/images/DSCN0157.jpg

To see & read more about this car, and other Aston Martins, visit this site, run by a friend of mine who took virtually every photograph on it.

http://www.astonmartins.com

The DB 4 GT Zagato is so rare (only 19 ever built and worth about £ 1 M each) that Aston Martin had another 4 made in the 1990's and there are also some "private enterprise" replicas as well.

Please note that in all the cars above, we are talking about replicas in the same manner the Stormbirds Me 262c is built. Faithful use of materials except where safety is concerned etc, rebuilt engines where possible (obviously easier where you are looking at piston engines arther than jets) and maintaining the "look and feel " of the real thing.

Sorry this has drifted off topic a bit ..... :-)

[Firefly]

I dont think a real ME-262 would get a license to fly today, it would be considered a death trap with those engines!

[HG]

Thank you FluffyBunny that is realy great to see so many replicas of such lovely cars. The Aston Martin DB4 GT Zagato and all the other Aston Martin cars are real classics.

It is Ok that you drifted off topic because I learned something new.

I think that if the made a engine exactly like the Jumo 004 today with all the better materials we have and change a few things it would not be so bad. For the Me-262 airframe I think if it passes the safty regulations it would great to see on fly today.

Henk

[FluffyBunnyGB]

mmmmm. Maybe, Henk

Thing is though, when a classic engine is known to have a flaw, like the Aston Martin straight 6, when they make new ones they correct the flaws by adding extra main bearings and stuff.

The route the Stormbirds guys have taken with the Me 262c, using an already-approved engine might be the only sensible route to getting a licence to fly, as Firefly suggests.

A car engine doesn't need FAA/CAA certification for example.

Still, anyone who rebuilds old machinery is alright in my book :-)

[BDL]

Still, anyone who rebuilds old machinery is alright in my book :-)

There's a factory somewhere (Duxford I think) that builds replica Spitfires (£250,000 each IIRC).

I can't give exact details, I read about them in Reader's Digest in the Med Centre waiting for my appointment a while back, I've got another on Wednesday so I'll try and nick the mag and post the whole article up.

[HG]

Yes I read about it, they do not look like the real Spitfire though.

Henk

[pdf27]

I think that if the made a engine exactly like the Jumo 004 today with all the better materials we have and change a few things it would not be so bad. For the Me-262 airframe I think if it passes the safty regulations it would great to see on fly today.

Henk
Depends on what the problem actually was. I suspect it will have been more than just reliability. If it did extent into problems with stall/surge and insufficient power, it probably isn't going to be realistically possible to tweak it enough to be safe.

[Firefly]

Well the Stormbirds ones have actually flew and they have delivered a model already to Messerschmit in Germany, so I guess it got a license with the new engines.

[HG]

Yes, Firefly they did get one to fly with the new engines.

Henk

[Panzerknacker]

A profile of the fist operational Heinkel He-219, this fast night fighter destroyed 4 Avor Lancaster and 1 Handley-page Halifax in his first sortie with major Streib at the controls, but was destroyed in landing when the hidraulic flap control failed.

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/1883/1ph6.jpg

[Tony Williams]

A profile of the fist operational Heinkel He-219, this fast night fighter destroyed 4 Avor Lancaster and 1 Handley-page Halifax in his first sortie with major Streib at the controls, but was destroyed in landing when the hidraulic flap control failed.
I've read that they were actually nearly all Halifaxes. There also seems to have been an element of overclaiming in night-fighter victories, as in other areas.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

[Panzerknacker]

Is very plausible due the poorest aircraft recognition tipical of this missions, it was night after all.

And regarding the claims issue...teorically the night claims were more precise because the strict regulation that required to see the plane crash to claim a victory, there was no points for damage or "Herauschuss", the guncams and the witnesses were very unreliable at night.

Was the Me262 ever used as a night fighter? There was a night fighter prototype, with two seats, but it is debatable as to whether they ever saw combat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_262

There is little doubt, the two seaters were actually used at night, some by the "Kommando Welter" and others by the NG 11, they scored few victories using his radar, most of them were use in the visual interceptation. A basic book about this planes in "german Jet Aces WW2" by John Weal from Osprey s publishing.

[Panzerknacker]

Helmut Lent
Oberst http://www.luftwaffe.cz/images/lent.jpg


Helmut Lent was born on 13 June 1918 at Pyrehne in the Landsberg region of Warthe/Neumark. He joined the Luftwaffe on 1 April 1936 receiving the rank of Fahnenjunker.


On 1 July, Lent was posted to III./JG 132 based at Jüterbog-Damm. In early September 1938, Lent participated in armed patrols, flying Ar 68 fighters, in support of Germany’s occupation of the Sudetenland. On 1 November, III./JG 132 relocated to Fürstenwalde and was redesignated II./JG 141. Leutnant Lent was assigned to 6./JG 141. On 1 May 1939, II./JG 141 was redesignated I./ZG 76 and re-equipped with the Bf 110 Zerstörer twin-engine fighter. Lent participated in the attack on Poland. He destroyed several aircraft on the ground and a PZL P.24 fighter in the air on 3 September 1939 for his and I./ZG 76’s initial victory. However, on 12 September, following the destruction of an aircraft on the ground he was attacked by another fighter and his starboard engine was hit and put out of action. This necessitated a forced-landing, fortunately behind his own lines, in which he received minor injuries. On 29 September, I./ZG 76 was withdrawn to the Stuttgart area of Germany to provide Reichsverteidigung against France and Britain.

On 18 December 1939, Lent, now based at Jever, took part in the Battle of the German Bight shooting down three RAF Wellington twin-engine bombers attacking German naval vessels off Wilhelmshaven. Lent went on to achieve ace status during the Norwegian campaign, shooting down a Norwegian Gloster Gladiator biplane fighter for his fifth victory on 9 April 1940, while escorting paratroop carrying Ju 52 three-engine transport aircraft to Oslo. However, with his fuel running short, Lent was forced to land at Fornebu. In attempting to land, he came under fire from the ground defences, which caused his starboard engine to catch fire. With one engine of his Bf 110 C “M8 + DH” dead, Lent overshot on landing and crashed, fortunately without injury. I./ZG 76 relocated to Stavanger on 14 April. Lent was selected to operate with a Sonderstaffel, to be based at Trondheim to provide support for beleaguered German troops fighting in the Narvik area, from 18 May. On 27 May, Lent was escorting Ju 87 Stuka dive-bombers, attacking the radio masts at Bod?sj?en, when RAF Gladiator fighters attempted to intervene. Lent shot one down for his sixth victory.


His victim was RAF ace Flight Lieutenant Caesar Hull (6.249 confirmed, 2.5 probable and 2 damaged victories, killed in action 7 September 1940) of 263 Squadron, RAF. Hull crash-landed at his airfield, wounded in the head and knee. Lent recorded four victories during his time in Norway and was promoted to the rank of Oberleutnant on 1 July. In August 1940, Lent was transferred to the Nachtjagd. He was appointed Staffelkapitän of 6./NJG 1, based at Deelen in Holland, on 7 September 1940. Initially he could not come to terms with the different techniques required for night fighting. Eventually, after 24 missions without success, he sought an interview with Major Wolfgang Falck (8 victories, RK), the Kommodore of NJG 1, and requested a transfer to day fighters. Falck rejected the request. Lent continued to strive for success and finally, on the night of 11-12 May 1941, on his 35th mission, shot down two RAF Wellingtons. On 1 July 1941, Lent was appointed Staffelkapitän of 4./NJG 1 based at Leeuwarden in Holland. He had 12 victories to his credit: five by night and seven by day. On 30 August, Oberleutnant Lent was awarded the Ritterkreuz for seven victories recorded by day and a further 14 at night. He began a three-week period of leave from 9 September during which time he was married. Lent returned to operations on 7 October. By the end of the year his score had reached 20 night victories, including two of the new RAF Stirling four-engine bombers. Lent was appointed Gruppenkommandeur of II./NJG 2 on 1 November 1941. He received promotion to the rank of Hauptmann on 1 January 1942. He was awarded the Eichenlaub (Nr 98) on 6 June, after 34 night victories and eight by day. Throughout 1942, he steadily added to his victory tally. On 6 February 1942, he recorded his eighth, and last, victory by day when he shot down a RAF Hampden twin-engine bomber near Terschelling. On 1 October 1942, Lent was appointed Gruppenkommandeur of IV./NJG 1. He received promotion to the rank of Major on 1 January 1943. Lent achieved his 50th victory, a RAF Halifax four-engine bomber, on 18 January. He was the first night fighter to reach this mark. By July 1943, Lent had 65 kills to his credit including a RAF Mosquito twin-engine fighter-bomber, shot down on 20 April, the first recorded at night by the Luftwaffe. On 2 August, he added the Schwerten (Nr 32) to his Ritterkreuz for 65 night victories and eight day. Lent was appointed Kommodore of NJG 3, based at Stade, on 1 August 1943. He was wounded in combat with a Stirling on the night of 2/3 October. While he shot down the bomber he sustained a serious wound to his hand and superficial injuries to his face. His injuries kept him from combat duty until November. By the end of 1943, Lent had 75 night victories to his credit and 83 in total to be the Nachtjagd’s leading scorer. He received promotion to the rank of Oberstleutnant on 1 March. On the night of 22/23 March 1944, Lent downed three RAF Lancaster four-engine bombers using just 22 rounds of ammunition. He reached his 100th night victory on the night of 15-16 June when he downed three Lancasters in seven minutes using just 57 rounds of ammunition.

http://i16.tinypic.com/40bi91h.jpg


This brought the award of the Brillanten (Nr 15) on 31 July, making him the first night fighter pilot to be so recognized. On 5 October 1944, Lent was landing his Ju 88 G-6 (W.Nr. 751081) “D5 + AA” at Paderborn when an engine failed and he hit a power cable. He survived the crash, which killed his crew, but two days later succumbed to his injuries in Paderborn hospital. Lent received a posthumous promotion to the rank of Oberst.
Helmut Lent is credited with 110 victories. . His total includes 103 victories at night (http://www.luftwaffe.cz/nacht.html), including 59 four-engine bombers and one Mosquito.


http://www.luftwaffe.cz/lent.html

[Chevan]

Helmut Lent is credited with 110 victories. . His total includes 103 victories , including 59 four-engine bombers and one Mosquito.

Oh my god, 59 four-engine bombers this about 550-650 mens of crew.
Plus another 54 shoting aircraft is about 200-300 mens.
He shot down a whole infantry regiment.
Panzerknacker, i hear that germans counted each engine of shoting aircraft as the victory i.o. 4-engine bombers = 4 victories. Is it true?

[Lancer44]

Oh my god, 59 four-engine bombers this about 550-650 mens of crew.
Plus another 54 shoting aircraft is about 200-300 mens.
He shot down a whole infantry regiment.
Panzerknacker, i hear that germans counted each engine of shoting aircraft as the victory i.o. 4-engine bombers = 4 victories. Is it true?

This is not true...
About 900 men it would be infantry battalion not infantry regiment...

Cheers,

Lancer44

[Chevan]

This is not true...
About 900 men it would be infantry battalion not infantry regiment...

Cheers,

Lancer44
OFF TOPIC :)
Are you sure mate?
May be you right about the german or allies infantry. But Soviet/russian battalion couldn't be 900 mens.

[Gen. Sandworm]

From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_organization#Units.2C_Formations_.26_Comm ands

Thats rater basic. However yes it does differ from country to country.

[Panzerknacker]

Oh my god, 59 four-engine bombers this about 550-650 mens of crew.
Plus another 54 shoting aircraft is about 200-300 mens.
He shot down a whole infantry regiment.
Panzerknacker, i hear that germans counted each engine of shoting aircraft as the victory i.o. 4-engine bombers = 4 victories. Is it true?

Untrue, a 4 engine aircraft was equal to 4 points , points valid to medal, an aircraft of one, two or 4 engines was always a victory.

Moreover at Night only count the airplanes that could be cofirmed by seeing the crash on the ground because the efectiveness of the guncameras at night were almost nil.

I have no the exact figure for british bombers but 4750 B-17 were shot down or crashed in WW2 that is some 47500 men wounded, killed or captured.

[Panzerknacker]

Profile of one operative Me-262 night fighter.

http://i13.tinypic.com/450qj6a.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

Kurt Welter, the enigmatic night ace.

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/images/welter.jpg

Kurt Welter was born on 25 February 1916 at Köln-Lindenthal. He joined the still secret Luftwaffe on 1 October 1934 and trained as a pilot. Welter served as an instructor up to 10 August 1943 when he was transferred, with the rank of Oberfeldwebel, to Blindflugschule 10. On 2 September 1943, Welter was transferred to 5./JG 301. With this unit he performed Wilde Sau missions intercepting raiding Allied bombers in single-seat fighter aircraft by night. On the night of 22/23 September, Welter shot down two Allied four-engine bombers on what was his first Wilde Sau mission. He shot down a further two on his third mission on the night of 3/4 October. By the beginning of April, he had recorded 17 victories in only 15 missions! Welter was awarded the Deutsches Kreuz in Gold on 10 May. Leutnant Welter was transferred to 5./JG 300 on 7 July 1944. In July, he was to claim two USAAF B-17 four-engined bombers (http://www.luftwaffe.cz/viermot.html) and three P-51 fighters (http://www.luftwaffe.cz/mustang.html) shot down by day.

From 25 July 1944, Welter served with 1./NJG 10 performing Wilde Sau missions. He claimed four RAF Lancaster four-engine bombers shot down on the night of 29/30 August to record his 24th through 27th victories. Welter transferred to 10./JG 300 on 4 September 1944. 10./JG 300 was established to counter incursions by RAF Mosquito twin-engined bombers.

In September, Welter was to claim seven Mosquitos shot down, including one by ramming! It is thought that during his service with 1./NJG 10 and 10./JG 300, Welter recorded 12 victories in only 18 missions. Welter was awarded the Ritterkreuz on 18 October for 34 victories. On 2 November 1944, Welter was transferred to II./NJG 11. Here he was given command of a unit, set up on 11 November 1944, dedicated to the interception, by night, of RAF Mosquitos. On 28 January 1945, the unit, initially known as Sonderkommando Stamp after its founder and then Sonderkommando Welter, was redesignated 10./NJG 11. The unit was equipped with Me 262 (http://www.luftwaffe.cz/dusen.html) jet fighters. Welter claimed 25 Mosquitos and two four-engined bombers shot down by night and two further Mosquitos by day flying the Me 262. Whilst Welter had tested a prototype Me 262 fitted with Neptun radar, the majority of Welter’s 20 plus night victories were achieved in standard radarless aircraft. Welter was awarded the Eichenlaub (Nr 769) on 9 March 1945 for 48 victories. Having survived the war, Welter was killed on 7 March 1949 at Leck in Schleswig-Holstein waiting at a level crossing, when logs falling from an improperly loaded passing train crushed his car.
Kurt Welter was credited with 63 victories in 93 missions. He recorded 56 victories at night (http://www.luftwaffe.cz/nacht.html), including 33 Mosquitos, but this late figure is not completely confirmed.

[Panzerknacker]

Martin Drewes.

http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Nachtjaeger/Luftwaffe/Drewes_Martin/drewes.jpg

Martin Drewes was born on October 20, 1918, in a small village near Hannover (northwestern Germany) called Lobmachtersen-bei-Braunschweig, a son of a local pharmacist.

As the 30's began to end, Martin Drewes volunteered for the officer's school of the German Army, the famous Wehrmacht, and at the last months of the Panzer course decided to transfer to the Luftwaffe; as this new armed force was in need of potential 'fliegern' (pilots), his request was accepted, and his new training period began during 1939-40. At this time, the most famous branches (and the most looked for by candidates) of the Luftwaffe were the "Jagd" (fighters) and "Sturzkampfluzeug" (dive bombers) Geschwadern (squadrons), being the Stuka the fastest way to get into the already well developed fray.


Drewes succeeded in getting posted to the Zerstörer (destroyer-a branch of the fighters based upon twin engined fighters, or the so-called 'heavy fighters') Geschwader upon graduation, and was transferred to ZG 76 "Haifish" (Shark) Wing, performing Kriegsmarine shipping patrols in the North Sea and some action in the Middle East. During this time Martin had already got two "Abschüsse" (victories), one of them a Spitfire over the North Sea, and the other a unfortunate Gloster Gladiator during his stay in the desert (1941 Iraqi uprising)

As the main weapon of this arm was the recently depreciated Bf-110C/D, the German High Command considered, upon the initiatives of a gifted Destroyer Arm officer, Wolfgang Falck, and some concerns on the annoying British night raids, which were then in a crescendo, to create a Nightfighter arm, by just transferring most of the Zerstörer units into this new kind of warfare. Initially, ZG 76 was transformed into NJG 3, and so Drewes saw himself merged into a new type of combat situation

As time passed by, his night victories increased, and he was transferred to NJG 1,within which he would stay up to the end of the war. During 1944 he was appointed Kommandeur (commander) of III./NJG 1 (third group of the first nightfighter wing), and that is the point we will focus now. At this time, Drewes had a Messerschmitt Bf-110G-4 coded G9+WD as his mount for night duties, and it was a totally personalized aircraft, as usual within the squadrons, as to improve chances against an ever varying and growing Allied air offensive

His aircraft had, just to increase morale of the ground personnel, his updated victory markings painted in the fin, where there were a yellow bordered black "25",and below it the Ritterkreuz (Knight's Cross); besides, there were many white victory bars, each one with a British roundel on its top and a black diagonal below, indicating night victories over British aircraft.


http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Fea1/001-100/Fea016_Martin-Drewes_Borges/images/Leeuwarden-July_1944.jpg

Besides, this aircraft's "Schräge Musik" (Jazz Musik)-oblique cannons mounted in the cockpit of the fighter to shoot at the British bombers vulnerable belly-was in the then standard side-by-side position, but just behind the pilot's seat, not in front of the "Bordschüetze"(Gunner), which was far more common at this period, according to a fax sent by Erich Vorholt, Drewes armourer at that time, which is still living in Germany.

The nose carried the factory standard four 7.9mm MG, and not the pair of 30mm cannon (Drewes said to me that he did not like the cannons, and instructed his ground crew to exchange them for the machine guns, because the cannons blasted huge pieces of the bomber-which could seriously damage his fighter, as the shooting distance was never beyond a mere 35 meters!!!).

http://i17.tinypic.com/4bxo6c6.jpg


As to have some interesting insight in another role of the Nachtjagdfliegern (nightfighting pilots), was talking to Drewes, a true gentleman, at his home when he told me that indeed G9+WD was a ex-nightfighter transformed into a dayfighter zerstörer for intercepting American bomber formations of B-17 and B-24 crossing the Reich in 1943-when escort fighters were rare sights over Germany, with its radar set removed for increased speed, and no belly 20mm twin cannons gun pod as well, for the same reason. However, he had another a/c for specific nightfighting, G9+MD, complete with the radar set, etc., so he had two available a/c, each for a specific role. Indeed, only pilots with less than 20 night victories would reinforce the day fighters struggle against the intruders of the Reich airspace, as the others were considered too valuable to be eventually spent in dayfighting with the ever growing menace, at the time, of the allied escort fighters.


One night, after detecting an unsuspecting Lancaster in the bomber stream, into which he mixed up thanks to Erich Handke (his excellent Bordfunker, or radar-operator, Ritterkreuzträger, or Knight's Cross bearer, in German), he proceed to make the conventional Schräge Musik attack, right from below, spreading the these guns fire from the inboard left engine till the starboard one (a vital area, with fuel tanks half full, so with a lot of fuel vapours to cause a huge explosion if hit...), but in this case, the unaware bomber initiated a right turn, and the 2-3 second shot got itself concentrated on the BOMB BAY, STILL FULL OF ITS DEADLY CARGO!!! The bomber disintegrated, and took Drewes and its crew with it, through an incredible amount of debris, which dilacerated the Bf-110G-4 (G9+MD)...they all had to jump immediately for their lives from the plane's blazing hulk!!! One schrapnel hit the gunner's (Oberfeldwebel Petz) wristwatch, stopping it right at the moment of the explosion: 01:19hs...

After this incident,and the recuperation of he and his crew, Drewes then took old G9+WD back to its more appropriated affairs of nightfighting, and so the story goes...

Martin Drewes finish the war with a grand total of 52 victories, consisting of a Spitfire, a Gladiator,7 day bombers (B-17 and B-24), and 43 British night bombers, most of them the latest Bomber Command weapon, Lancasters.

He recived the Knight Cross with oakleaves.

sources:

http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Fea1/001-100/Fea016_Martin-Drewes_Borges/fea016.htm

http://www.luftwaffe39-45.historia.nom.br/ases/drewes.htm


http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/drewesmb_1.htm

http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Nachtjaeger/Luftwaffe/Drewes_Martin/drewes.htm
[/LEFT]

[Panzerknacker]

By the way Drewes still is alive and well in Brazil, he wrote a book called "Sombras da noite" (Night Shadows in portuguese).

Is available in spanish and german also, dont know about the english version.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/JG_Meyer/capa_drewes_final.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

The Schräge Musik in He-219 (MK 108)


http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/231/dibujoqz3.jpg



By the way...Schräge Musik ( wich means something like deviated , dirty or depravated music) was the name applied to Doktor Goebbels to all the african root music like the jazz and blues, wich were banned in Germany.

[50gunship]

here is another night fighter side view

[WEISNER]

My first post here, I thought I might see some new info on NJG in this thread....What A Joke...
is there not a thread where members can post their political views? after several pages of Politics etc....the thread starts to come back to the NJG....
I noticed the same thing on the Hans Rudel thread..
Is there not a moderator here that can put a stop to this and keep a thread on track?
Looks like this site Mirrors the WWII Aircraft.net site. Way off topic. And then members here picking on some member there that has a Board name that does not suit him...Sad, Sad, Sad....
On the other hand there is alot to see here when threads stay on track, the Bios written by members on Welter and Drews were very well done.
Welter having little written about him, was especially nice to see.
I wonder if friend Erich Brown would have anything to add to the Welter peice?
Kevin

[Gen. Sandworm]

My first post here, I thought I might see some new info on NJG in this thread....What A Joke...
is there not a thread where members can post their political views? after several pages of Politics etc....the thread starts to come back to the NJG....
I noticed the same thing on the Hans Rudel thread..
Is there not a moderator here that can put a stop to this and keep a thread on track?
Looks like this site Mirrors the WWII Aircraft.net site. Way off topic. And then members here picking on some member there that has a Board name that does not suit him...Sad, Sad, Sad....
On the other hand there is alot to see here when threads stay on track.
Kevin

Well maybe you can add to the discussion instead of being an asshole. We've done quite fine without you and your opinions so..........fuck off unless you have something to contribute.

[Francesca1973]

OT: Wanna go back to the Swamp, sir? A bunch of us are getting together over there tonight. Pick your poison. War really is hell, ain't it?

[Gen. Sandworm]

;)

Well either contribute to improving things and making it a valuable site or get lost. Have next to no patience for insults. Especially towards the site in general.

Time for a drink! :D

[Panzerknacker]

My first post here, I thought I might see some new info on NJG in this thread....What A Joke...
is there not a thread where members can post their political views? after several pages of Politics etc....the thread starts to come back to the NJG....
I noticed the same thing on the Hans Rudel thread..
Is there not a moderator here that can put a stop to this and keep a thread on track?

First of all , as your first post I have to tell you that is pretty poor and very agressive one , the topics like Rudel s one can de politizated because the simple reason that Rudel was a vey pòlitically active person.

I am the moderator in the German military section and I am working permanently to improve and expand this section with valuable info. I you have any problem you can send me a PM , not discuss this in public.


Looks like this site Mirrors the WWII Aircraft.net site. Way off topic. And then members here picking on some member there that has a Board name that does not suit him.

We are not a mirror of any site in the web whatsoever, If a guy decide to talk about the P-39 in that forum and also in this ....That makes a mirror ?



..Sad, Sad, Sad....

You think that this forum is sad...well the AIDS in Africa that is a real sad thing, if it bother so much..go, go, go.


And by the way you are complaining about the Off topics but your 1th post is an entire one..? crazy. I dont see many future for you unless your change completely off attitude.

[Erich]

Panzerknacker since you are this forums mod, may I have your permission to add two cents of change to several of the postings ?

Welters bio although copied from friend Petr Kacha's site was copied from Ernst Obermaier's Luftwaffe Ritterkreuz fighter aces book, volume 1 some years ago. I told him at the time that Obermaiers work was not conclusive on this quite a stealth personality and that we were writing the book on Kommando Welter and the Moskito-jagd. One error in the bio at first glance is the 5./JG 301. It should read 5./JG 302. JG 301 in it's element during that time were flying all Bf 109G-6's and only switched over with movement of their 109's out of their unit in September 1944 when the day fighter unit was completely re-equipped with the Fw 190A-8, A-8/R2's and the Fw 190A-9 which my cousin flew while in "5./JG 301" ... small world eh ?

I have more to share on the NF's, one of my cousins was KIA as Gruppenkommandeur of II./NJG 5 in his Bf 1109G-4 - Hauptmann Hans Baer.

more later if I may ?

[Erich]

from our research for our book "A nasty surprise: Moskito-jadg über Deutschland", that Welter probably did not score 4 RAF 4 engines while in 1./NJGr 10 as the unit was on the Mosquito hunt. while in 10.(N)/JG 300 Moskito-jagd he supposed joined up at Augusts end and several of his kills are not confirmed. no Mossies by ramming as quoted. he did not go into II./NJG 11 on 2 November as there was not a II./NJG 11 until the end of November due to the paper transfer of the 10th staffel./JG 300 in the making of II gruppe NJG 11 armed with the 109G-6/AS and G-14/AS. some of 4th staffels Bf 109G's were equipped with FuG 217 Neptun radar ........... I will add no more on the man as it will be covered in our huge book except to say that Welter became a primary propaganda figure for Germany his 33 mossie claims some are held as suspect and some of the kills were actual victories of other members of the Kommando Welter 262 unit. Welter was busy the last two months of the war in the administrative role, he may not of even flown the two seater. Fact is the single seaters and twin seaters never flew off the same airfield and only one twin seater score 1 victory, so much has been tried as fact about the two-seaters and their role in evening operations ......myth

it will be all covered in our book

[Panzerknacker]

Panzerknacker since you are this forums mod, may I have your permission to add two cents of change to several of the postings ?

Welters bio although copied from friend Petr Kacha's site was copied from Ernst Obermaier's Luftwaffe Ritterkreuz fighter aces book, volume 1 some years ago. I told him at the time that Obermaiers work was not conclusive on this quite a stealth personality and that we were writing the book on Kommando Welter and the Moskito-jagd.


You did not need my permition to post the menbers who know other forums arev awae of the quality of your info.

[Erich]

ok then thank you, I will continue and put some things in order for everyone to make comments on a bit later, will have to dig out the Nachtjagd data this week.

[Panzerknacker]

A pair of night fighting Messers Bf-109 used with the lone "Wlde sau" tactic.


http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/7113/nocheeb2.jpg

[Tham]

I remember reading this very comprehensive book
"The German Night Fighter Force, 1939 - 1945", whose author I can't remember, in the local library here way back in 1990. I went back there recently to search for the book but unfortunately couldn't find it anymore.

Kurt Welter's Mosquito kills were listed there, 32 of them I remember. Helmut Lent's victories were also listed.

I think the book also mentioned kills of the Northrop P-61 Black Widow, which, surprisingly, the German night fighter pilots described as a particularly unwieldy aircraft and easy to take out.

[Tham]

These look like two quite good books .

http://www.amazon.com/Other-Battle-Luftwaffe-Bomber-Command/dp/0760302650/ref=sr_1_10/002-0837895-1819266?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185377311&sr=1-10

http://www.amazon.com/Helmut-Lent-Papers-Peter-Hinchliffe/dp/1841451053/ref=sr_1_1/002-0837895-1819266?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185378445&sr=1-1

[HG]

Hi Erich

Nice to see you.