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Sturmtruppen
11-20-2005, 07:45 PM
A Great Hero of the Motherland,Glory to Pedro Aramburu!!!

http://rcc0102.rcc.com.ar/todoeshistoria/0005/aramburu.gif
http://rcc0102.rcc.com.ar/todoeshistoria/0005/aramburu2.gif

This man served to the motherland, took the responsability of handing a government with the support of the people but winning nothing more than his execution after a "fake" judge committed by cowards, even they said that this gentleman resisted to the last second before his death like a real man, It would be great if our politics have the same valour as Aramburu (for example Fernando de la rua).

Firefly
11-21-2005, 02:48 AM
Never heard of this guy, what exactly did he do?

Sturmtruppen
11-21-2005, 04:49 AM
just taking the executive power responsabilities (he didn't do the coup d' etat,but he was a president of fact),however people supported him like most of the civic-military government,there were bad and good juntas in argentina,there were bad and good democracies in argentina, sometimes we need to change to ensure a better future, maybe the juntas hadn't a good economical level (they were all liberals economically and im against the economical liberalism,i think somebody will kill me when seeing that i don't like it).
I specially admirate him because i know a guy that his father was friend of Aramburu,and also i heard about his death, a certain terrorist group did a "Fake Judge" (they simulated to judge him but they knew that they were going to kill him before), and he was tortured brutally and killed.

greetings

Eagle
11-21-2005, 06:49 PM
Never heard of this guy, what exactly did he do?

*He took part of the group which expeled to the best president that Argentina had in all its history, General Juan Domingo Perón.

*He ordered to shoot to all who would claimed and marched to recover the democratic system.


Was murdered by a left-handed guerilla group, the "Montoneros".



Erwin, if you don't think like me, just don't answer this post.-

Sturmtruppen
11-21-2005, 07:00 PM
Juan Peron was also in a Coup d' etat for your information, was him with the GOU? (grupo de oficiales unidos), Aramburu didn't head the coup d' etat but he took the executive government, yes.
I like peron and i dislike him,i think he was one of the best but i don't support that he made a coup d' etat too and Aramburu had more balls than montoneros.


He ordered to shoot to all who protested in a Not Pacifically way,or who putted bombs killing civilians, conscripts who were doing their service by obligation.

The montoneros are barbarians, uncivilizated mountains of young useful idiots who contributed to the internal tension.

Im not replying to no-ones posts,im just making an aclaration to make larger my last post :wink: .

Eagle
11-23-2005, 06:02 PM
It's a pleasure could discuss with you if you treat well to your partners...


Although Peron was part of the GOU, is not the point.

Peron was democratically choosen by the argentine people. If Aramburu thought it was necessary to realize a coup' d etat (although never is necessary, there are hundred of other ways to solve that problemas), it would managed people OK, without pressures. There was a martial law in Argentina. All industries started to fall, because the government wanted out all that could remember to the General Peron, and of course, if you promoted to Peron, you would be punished by all the weight of the law, as the Juntas between 1976 and 1983 did.

Sturmtruppen
11-23-2005, 06:24 PM
It's a pleasure could discuss with you if you treat well to your partners...


Although Peron was part of the GOU, is not the point.

Peron was democratically choosen by the argentine people. If Aramburu thought it was necessary to realize a coup' d etat (although never is necessary, there are hundred of other ways to solve that problemas), it would managed people OK, without pressures. There was a martial law in Argentina. All industries started to fall, because the government wanted out all that could remember to the General Peron, and of course, if you promoted to Peron, you would be punished by all the weight of the law, as the Juntas between 1976 and 1983 did.

If my crap detector don't rings i will treat the partner as he deserves.

Peron, the person that we admire has also his error, he made a coup' d etat.

Peron was elected democratically,as Fernando de La Rua, what a good president,eh?,the democracy is the best method but not always perfect sir, the biggest error of argentina was voting peron in his 3rd presidence,he wasn't the peron of old times, and he put the worst president of argentina (even worse than de la rua), Maria estela martinez de peron well known as isabel peron.
There are no hundreds of ways of solve problem,it's like 1976, Videla,who was supported by the people, made the coup d' etat because people were claiming that,and to kill the subversion,today the people that supported that are against,why?,because they're always agree with the president of turn (im talking about senators and deputies for example the senator dela rua).

he couldn't manage the things without rules, the guerrillas beast was growing up and he needed to take the same ways to attack them,yes,there are casualties of innocents,i have a list of innocents killed by the ejercito revolucionario del pueblo in an historical document,i would like to show it to you but you are in santa fe.

some industries fell,some,and yes,the liberlism of the economy was crappy,in that i agree with you,but at least,he reduced the number of victims (of innocent victims by the subversives), that happened during menem's he privatized the national industry,there was much more before him.


punished by laws?,well,the extreme totalitarism that peron did covered (in secret),nobody said nothing against peron during his gobernment,that isn't strange?,well,today there are a lot of people anti-peronism and peronists,both of them,but before if you said something bad about peron you would die,and this are not my words,this are the words of people who know those years (by their parents),so that was equally,if you said something against peron you die.

And aramburu was critized by the guerrilla because his acts were against it,all the che guevara's crap,comunism,neo-marxism that today are hidden behind progresism and social-democratism.

Eagle
11-28-2005, 05:34 PM
the biggest error of argentina was voting peron in his 3rd presidence,he wasn't the peron of old times, and he put the worst president of argentina (even worse than de la rua), Maria estela martinez de peron well known as isabel peron.


Agree... But I was talking about that "young" General of 1950. There we had a great president, and the next to them instead imitate him, destroyed to the 80% of the argentine industries (the other 20% was absolutely destroyed by Carlos Saul -Monkey- Menem in the 1990s). The 1970s Peron was only a "picture", but you have to agree with me that the people needed someone to believe to, and the last image of an exemplary president was Peron. The people in 1973 was excited and fascinated to recover that powerfull nation of the 1950s. That excitement was a mistake? could be. But the main biggest mistake was putting to his wife, Isabel Fernandez as Vicepresident. He wanted to give to the people a new "Eva", but she was a weak, idiot person.



There are no hundreds of ways of solve problem,it's like 1976, Videla,who was supported by the people, made the coup d' etat because people were claiming that,and to kill the subversion,today the people that supported that are against,why?

Of course the people can support a coup d' etat because they were thirsty of a good management. They trusted that could return the satisfaction to the people. But when they started to kill people, a lot of them, inocent people (don't deny that, is impossible that all were subversives), the people started to refuse themselves to the military government.



some industries fell,some,and yes,the liberlism of the economy was crappy,in that i agree with you,but at least,he reduced the number of victims (of innocent victims by the subversives), that happened during menem's he privatized the national industry,there was much more before him.

Some? my partner, all the great argentine industries started to fall since 1955! And of course I couldn't agree more, Menem finished that agony privatizing all our enterprises.



well,the extreme totalitarism that peron did covered (in secret),nobody said nothing against peron during his gobernment,that isn't strange?,well,today there are a lot of people anti-peronism and peronists,both of them,but before if you said something bad about peron you would die,and this are not my words,this are the words of people who know those years (by their parents),so that was equally,if you said something against peron you die.

Yes that's true, Peron had a kind of totalitarism, but that government represion started with violence when the revolution started, in the middle of 1955. There the situation escaped from his hands. There was a certain block of the word-freedom, but the violence by Peron forces started after the bombing to Buenos Aires.




And aramburu was critized by the guerrilla because his acts were against it,all the che guevara's crap,comunism,neo-marxism that today are hidden behind progresism and social-democratism.

I don't have anything about his thoughts about guevara or the communism, I am agaisnt of him because he ordered to shoot people as if they were animals, whatever were his reasons to do that.

Panzerknacker
11-29-2005, 06:50 PM
(the other 20% was absolutely destroyed by Carlos Saul -Monkey- Menem in the 1990s).

Not quiet true statement, the employ rate was more on Menem timês than right now.

FluffyBunnyGB
11-30-2005, 12:11 PM
Off topic about the current Argentinian political situation, but on topic for the thread . . . .

Just finished re-reading a novel called Rainbow Soldiers by Walter Winward, which deals with the Falklands Conflict from the point of view of both a British (fictional) Battalion and Argentinian soldiers, both regular & conscript.

Without wishing to start another flame war about this topic, it does point out that some of the Argentinian forces were very good but, in the main, the conscripts were treated appalingly by their chain of command.

It's a fictional story, but rooted in fact. I'm fairly sure the authour was among the British troops who retook the islands.

It's avaliable secondhand from Amazon for a few quid if anyone fancies a read.

Eagle
11-30-2005, 07:53 PM
Panzer:
Menem destroyed all the national enterprises and factories. Argentine returned being a farm-country with him. We were living as kings because we had all the money of our solds, but then, we had nothing.

Remember:

*Aerolineas Argentinas
*Austral Líneas Aéreas
*Gas del Estado
*YPF
*YCF
*TAMSE
*Fabrica Militar de Avionesç
*Ferrocarril del Estado
*Astilleros Belgrano, Domecq Garcia



FluffyBunnyGB:

The Argentine Army had, as all the armies and all the enterprises from the world, good and bad people. Of course we had bad officers, as we had a lot of them that were excellent person and military. I am sure that your army suffered the same any time, don't you think?

FluffyBunnyGB
12-01-2005, 03:32 AM
Hi Eagle

The point made in the book Rainbow Soldiers isn't so much the "bad officers in any army", but more the apparent radical difference between how the regulars & concripts were treated by all concerned.

If Winward is correct, many conscripts were used as "cannon fodder", an old term for those pushed into the front line to preserve your better units from the initial shock of an attack.

Furthermore, they were issued less rations and, IIRC, inferior wet weather clothing and often left to dig in and rot.

The use of conscipts in this manner isn't limited to the Argentinian Army by any means.

The first time I deployed with a Spanish unit, I was very suprised by the dichotomy in the way regular & concript were handled. I'm told the same would have been true when we had National Service (conscription) in the UK.

However, both these examples (and Argentina during the Falklands War) were effectively during peacetime. In total war, such as WW1 & WW2, things seem to run a little better, as most troops are "in for the duration" instead of join then leave in an 18 month / 2 year timescale.

There are other interesting subjects covered in the book, such as the freindship between an Argentinian family & a British one and how they all had very mixed feeings about the conflict. I knew a few Argentinians prior to 1982, and charming chaps they were. I still know a few, and they are still mostly charming!

Kind regards

Fluffy

Panzerknacker
12-01-2005, 10:51 AM
The penguins last joke: :evil:

Nilda Garre the new defense minister, this lady in particular had liks in with the former guerrilla groups in the 70s.

http://www.clarin.com/diario/2005/11/29/elpais/p-02401.htm


Menem destroyed all the national enterprises and factories. Argentine returned being a farm-country with him

That is complete false, for example the car production in 1994 exceded the 550.000 per year in our country, get a little info before posting such nonsence.

Eagle
12-01-2005, 09:59 PM
Yeah panzer, 550.000 cars... and? they were IKA cars? No... those cars were, Fiat, Renault, Ford and Chevrolet... the money and the profits were to the foreign enterprises that are here to squeeze out all our sources, material sorces and human sources.

The imperialism is based on those kind of enterprises, you know? That's why we are imperialism's victims. With Peron, all the enterprises were argentine enterprises... any nation that would want to survive as a real nation needs to keep its factories and sources, not giving them to the power-nations.

Man of Stoat
12-02-2005, 03:04 AM
Yeah panzer, 550.000 cars... and? they were IKA cars? No... those cars were, Fiat, Renault, Ford and Chevrolet... the money and the profits were to the foreign enterprises that are here to squeeze out all our sources, material sorces and human sources.

The imperialism is based on those kind of enterprises, you know? That's why we are imperialism's victims. With Peron, all the enterprises were argentine enterprises... any nation that would want to survive as a real nation needs to keep its factories and sources, not giving them to the power-nations.

So what you're saying is that it will be better to produce no cars at all? Would you rather all those workers were not employed at all rather than employed by "imperialist" multinationals? These companies are pouring money into your economy, in terms of investment, salaries, etc. They are reducing unemployment in your country. They are providing wealth to your country.

I'm sure that you'll say "they should be producing Argentine cars for the benefit of Argentina", but of course back on planet Earth, they wouldn't be. The investment potential is just not there to do this kind of thing. And without this investment, no factories, no cars, no jobs.

Firefly
12-02-2005, 05:55 AM
Yeah panzer, 550.000 cars... and? they were IKA cars? No... those cars were, Fiat, Renault, Ford and Chevrolet... the money and the profits were to the foreign enterprises that are here to squeeze out all our sources, material sorces and human sources.

The imperialism is based on those kind of enterprises, you know? That's why we are imperialism's victims. With Peron, all the enterprises were argentine enterprises... any nation that would want to survive as a real nation needs to keep its factories and sources, not giving them to the power-nations.

Of course there are many workers from your so called Imperialist countries that would gladly like to make the cars themselves. It is the very fact that your workers accept lower wages and conditions that brings foreign companies to make things there. If and when you attain the same level of prosperity as other countries, the jobs will go too.

So in a way both you and MOS are right.

Editted for Sp.....

Panzerknacker
12-02-2005, 05:23 PM
Yeah panzer, 550.000 cars... and? they were IKA cars? No... those cars were, Fiat, Renault, Ford and Chevrolet... the money and the profits were to the foreign enterprises that are here to squeeze out all our sources, material sorces and human sources.

Ejem....Eagle this is e very retarded and poor argument, keep in mind that you say this before:


Argentine returned being a farm-country with him

now faced with the solid truth you have to invented this false nationalist crap.


And this ... :shock:



The imperialism is based on those kind of enterprises, you know? That's why we are imperialism's victims. With Peron, all the enterprises were argentine enterprises... any nation that would want to survive as a real nation needs to keep its factories and sources, not giving them to the power-nations.

And who are you...the reencarnation of che Guevara.

Peron did not invented our country it exist before you now.

With your line of thinking the foreing countries should close the argentine owned factories like Arcor, Sancor, Linares , etc. you have no idea how the world economy works.

Eagle
12-03-2005, 11:29 AM
Apologies to the non-spanish members...


No soy la reencarnación de Guevara ni me interesaría serlo, no creo compartir mucho con ese individuo. Lo único que digo es que la base de una nación fuerte está en sus industrias eficaces.

Perón, con sus planes quinquenales y su intervención y apoyo a la industria nacional estaba en lo correcto. Los presidentes anteriores y posteriores fueron simples seguidores de las doctrinas norteamericanas, dependiendo siempre de ellos, desde Sarmiento, hasta Roca.

No creo que haya sido un pobre argumento lo de las multinacionales.El punto al que yo iba era que Argentina, con Menem, las únicas ganancias que tenían fueron ganancias del agro. Por más que las fábricas estaban acá, en Argentina, y los trabajadores eran pagados, esa plata se iba a Francia, a Italia o a Estados Unidos, solo quedaba un mínimo porcentaje acá, es por eso que dije que Argentina volvió a ser una simple productora de granos, cuando podría haber aprovechado las cientos de fábricas competentes a nivel mundial que se poseían en los años '50 y en parte hasta finales de los '80.

Sturmtruppen
12-10-2005, 12:11 AM
Yeah panzer, 550.000 cars... and? they were IKA cars? No... those cars were, Fiat, Renault, Ford and Chevrolet... the money and the profits were to the foreign enterprises that are here to squeeze out all our sources, material sorces and human sources.

Ejem....Eagle this is e very retarded and poor argument, keep in mind that you say this before:


Argentine returned being a farm-country with him

now faced with the solid truth you have to invented this false nationalist crap.


And this ... :shock:



The imperialism is based on those kind of enterprises, you know? That's why we are imperialism's victims. With Peron, all the enterprises were argentine enterprises... any nation that would want to survive as a real nation needs to keep its factories and sources, not giving them to the power-nations.

And who are you...the reencarnation of che Guevara.

Peron did not invented our country it exist before you now.

With your line of thinking the foreing countries should close the argentine owned factories like Arcor, Sancor, Linares , etc. you have no idea how the world economy works.

que te dije papa?,este es un zurdito, el pibe dice lo que escucha, yo conozco gente que lo conoce, te puedo dar mi msn q lo debes saber de algun lado y ahi prefiero contarte el tema.
puede que sea agresivo pero no soy un zurdito de mierda,argentina no es un pais granjas, este es un ultra peronacho,pero encima el zurdo no sabe que peron era nazi y derechista e hizo un golpe de estado.

bueno,yo te avise,disculpame pero es un boludo, sino cree tener mas edad de la que tiene.

Saludos Cordiales.

ya guys of the anglais, Johnny be good!

Panzerknacker
12-17-2005, 12:11 PM
Si, tenes un 90 % de razon, lamentablemente este chico es de las tipicas personas que se comieron la propaganda esa de que Peron esto Peron lo otro, yo no soy antiperonista ni nada de eso pero....este muchacho esta confundido. :?

Cuts
12-17-2005, 03:00 PM
Shouldn't this thread be split ?

Part of it should remain in the 'Off Topic - Militaria' forum, the rest moved into 'Off Topic - Political Debate.'

Firefly
12-17-2005, 03:51 PM
You may be right, but I havent a clue what they are on about!

cpl condor
12-18-2005, 01:15 AM
sorry, my fellows but this is not a forum to offer a politics. please, continue with the forum in discussion, I respect you, but this is not a
site for that discussion.
Any of you know about the FARA 83, a project of a argentine assault
rifle? 8)

Dani
12-18-2005, 03:56 AM
sorry, my fellows but this is not a forum to offer a politics. please, continue with the forum in discussion, I respect you, but this is not a site for that discussion.


cpl condor, thanks!
I will split some posts here.

Edited: Posts splitted from Argentinean Military.

Cuts
12-18-2005, 05:43 AM
You may be right, but I havent a clue what they are on about!

Mainly differing views on the direction Argentina has taken in the past, and what effect these have had on it's present position as the major player in international politics.

Well that and a fair amount of insults, but I'll leave you to guess from whom they came...

Panzerknacker
12-18-2005, 12:38 PM
Many Thanks to the Mods for let us to continue the discution.


You may be right, but I havent a clue what they are on about

A little translation:


Si, tenes un 90 % de razon, lamentablemente este chico es de las tipicas personas que se comieron la propaganda esa de que Peron esto Peron lo otro, yo no soy antiperonista ni nada de eso pero....este muchacho esta confundido

Yes you are in 90 % right ( Erwin) unfortunately this guy is the tipical kind of persons that eat the propanganda machine of Peron do this, and Peron do that...I am not antiperonist but....clearly this kid is confused.

Panzerknacker
12-18-2005, 12:44 PM
sorry, my fellows but this is not a forum to offer a politics. please, continue with the forum in discussion, I respect you, but this is not a
site for that discussion.

I am not sure if you are an Argentine of what, but this is a very good and open minded forum... we are not in Saorbats, the censorship will not cach in here, so let the mods do this work and dont tell them how to do it.

Dani
12-18-2005, 02:01 PM
sorry, my fellows but this is not a forum to offer a politics. please, continue with the forum in discussion, I respect you, but this is not a
site for that discussion.

I am not sure if you are an Argentine of what, but this is a very good and open minded forum... we are not in Saorbats, the censorship will not cach in here, so let the mods do this work and dont tell them how to do it.

Panzerknacker, cpl condor was talking about off-topic posts in Argentinian military topic. After his post, I decided to split several posts from there. So you could continue.

cpl condor
12-18-2005, 02:41 PM
sorry, my fellows but this is not a forum to offer a politics. please, continue with the forum in discussion, I respect you, but this is not a
site for that discussion.

I am not sure if you are an Argentine of what, but this is a very good and open minded forum... we are not in Saorbats, the censorship will not cach in here, so let the mods do this work and dont tell them how to do it.
sorry, but the politician run with the money, and you and I keep in discussion of that. there's no saint beetwen the politician.
do you know any?

Panzerknacker
12-19-2005, 04:14 PM
Sorry but I dont follow you :roll:

Firefly
12-19-2005, 04:25 PM
Well I think he means politicians are out for themselves and none of them are Saints! I could be wrong as my Spanish consists of ordering Beer and asking where the toilet is! :o

Of course he said it in English, which I understand a wee bit better, just!

cpl condor
12-19-2005, 08:15 PM
Cheers!!!! :mrgreen: