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Landstorm
12-06-2005, 03:01 PM
Could some body tell me did any SS divisions ever used porsche turret king tigers at any time during the war?
And if they did what is the painting scheme?
Thanks!!

Dani
12-06-2005, 03:42 PM
Read with attention this page (as a beginning): http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tigers-02.htm

Dani
12-06-2005, 03:50 PM
Then:
http://www.tigerpanzer.de/main.htm (in German)
http://www.waffenhq.de/panzer/koenigstiger.html (in German)
http://www.worldwar2aces.com/
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/tanks_heavy/pzkpfw_vib.html

Dani
12-06-2005, 04:14 PM
http://www.weltkrieg.ru/images/original/33/3255.jpg

The above is Porsche turret, the other one is Henschel turret.

Landstorm
12-06-2005, 04:29 PM
Thanks but these websites I've read before, and it doesn't say whether any SS DIVISIONS used PORSCHE turret King tigers, Please note SS DIVISIONS. I know Schwere panzer 503 used them.

Dani
12-06-2005, 04:38 PM
Track back!
Schwere panzer 503 was in France in 1944. Search to whom SS division belonged.

Dani
12-06-2005, 05:10 PM
s.Pz.Abt. 503 was transferred to Normandy with 33 Tiger I and 12 Tiger II, reaching action in early July 1944. The 33 Tiger I were all shipped in June 1944. Photographs of the unit's Tigers are very limited. Technical features are similar to late Tigers shipped to the other units. However, possible distinguishing features include spare track not mounted on front plate, spare track stowed outside hull MG mount and driver's visor, and Pilze sockets on turret roof. Camouflage was similiar to other units, but on at least some vehicles, the Balkankreuz were unusually large. Tactical numbers were thin, neatly stencilled with white outline and dark, probably black, interior. (An excellent photo reference for s.Pz.Abt. 503 is the book 45 Tiger en Normandie la s. Pz.Abt. 503 by Didier Lodieu.)

From http://www.lonesentry.com/panzer/tiger-tank-normandy.html

chase
12-06-2005, 06:53 PM
I read that the Porsche Tigers lacked machine guns. Is that true?

Dani
12-06-2005, 11:59 PM
No, it is not true.
The main reason for adopting Henschel turret instead of Porsche turret it was the fact that Porsche turret used too much cooper in the electric wirings compared to Henschel turret.
As for machine guns, each King Tiger had 2 x 7,92 mm MG 34

Edited to add:
For close-in defense, the Royal Tiger has a coaxial 7.92-mm machine gun next to the 88, and another in the hull. An anti-aircraft machine-gun mounting is fitted on top of the commander's cupola. The crew of five (the commander, gunner, loader, who are in the turret, and the driver and radio operator, who are in the front of the hull) have only one pistol port. This port is in the door in the rear of the turret, and consists of a conical plug closed by a chain. If the crew find it necessary to open hatches for observation or to use small arms, the following openings are available:

Hull:
Hatch over driver
Hatch over radio operator
Turret:
Hatch on top of commander's cupola
Hatch on right of top
Hatch on rear slope
Door in rear plate

Quoted from: http://www.lonesentry.com/new88mm/index.html

Landstorm
12-07-2005, 01:11 PM
Track back!
Schwere panzer 503 was in France in 1944. Search to whom SS division belonged.

What do you mean by "to whom SS division belonged"
s.pz 503 like any othe schwere panzer abteilungs, they belong to the Heers(Wehrmacht) not the SS

Dani
12-07-2005, 02:16 PM
Track back!
Schwere panzer 503 was in France in 1944. Search to whom SS division belonged.

What do you means by "to whom SS division belonged"
s.pz 503 like any othe schwere panzer abteilungs, they belong to the Heers(Wehrmacht) not the SS

I will quote as follows:
In January 1944, one of the Leibstandarte's s.SS-Panzer-Abt 101 Tiger commanders, Michael Wittman, was awarded the Oakleaves to the Knight's Cross for his actions in halting the attack of an entire Soviet armoured brigade.
(Quoted from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibstandarte_SS_Adolf_Hitler)
As you know, Abt (short for Abteilung) means Battalion.
I hardly doubt that 1.SS-Panzer-Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler doesn't belong to Waffen-SS.

More, on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/III_(Germanic)_SS_Panzer_Corps, on September 16 1944 - Kurland Pocket OOB it is written:
Schwere Panzer Abteilung 503 (SS Nr. 103)

Finally, http://www.feldgrau.com/sspzabt.html could be easily help you in understanding that Panzer Abteilung could be formed from SS Regiments, or could be renamed as SS Panzer Abteilung.

QED

Dani
12-07-2005, 03:47 PM
Track back!
Schwere panzer 503 was in France in 1944. Search to whom SS division belonged.

OK, on http://www.panzerworld.net/tigerii.html , at "Operational history" I found "List of the Tiger IIs issued, and the units they were issued to".

Reading what it's written above,

As components were ready to produce 50 turrets for the Porsche chassis, these were mounted on the first 50 Henschel chassis so as to prevent further delays in the production program. Because no good solution could be given to the shot trap in the turret, the turret remained unmodified. The turret differed from the Henschel in that it had a rounded front and mantlet (which proved very strong against enemy fire), and a flatter angle on the sides, which meant that the comanders cupola left a bulge in the side of the turret.

I assume that first 50 tanks had Porsche turrets.

According the the list, none of these first 50 tanks (with Porsche turret) were delivered to any SS Panzer Abteilungs.

As for the Schwere (Heavy) Panzer Abteilungs, either SS or not, their role was to support different divisions within a Corps (Army, Panzer, SS, whatever Corps).

Next search would be to find which SS divisions were in Normandy at the time of sending the Schw. Pz. Abt. 503 and also to find if this battalion was sent to reinforce a SS division there.

Dani
12-07-2005, 03:55 PM
Could some body tell me did any SS divisions ever used porsche turret king tigers at any time during the war?
And if they did what is the painting scheme?
Thanks!!

Moreover, I want to share what I found elsewhere:

"Tell me, and Iíll forget.
Show me, and Iíll remember.
Involve me, and Iíll understand."
-Chinese proverb-

I will be grateful if you'll understand my message. :D

chase
12-07-2005, 06:24 PM
No, it is not true.
As for machine guns, each King Tiger had 2 x 7,92 mm MG

Not Porsche King Tigers, Porsche Tiger I's.

Dani
12-07-2005, 06:52 PM
No, it is not true.
As for machine guns, each King Tiger had 2 x 7,92 mm MG

Not Porsche King Tigers, Porsche Tiger I's.
Check this:
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/tanks_heavy/pzkpfw_vib.html
Also Tiger I had 2 MG: http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/tanks_heavy/pzkpfw_vie.html

Landstorm
12-08-2005, 07:35 AM
one of the Leibstandarte's s.SS-Panzer-Abt 101 Tiger commanders,

Please, notice it's name is s. SS panzer-abt 101. And its full name is
"schwere SS panzer Abteilung"

The ones belong to wehrmacht has the name " schwere Panzer Abteilung" and is shortened to sPz abt note there is no SS in the name like the one for the ss divisions!!

Also another way to distinguish beteween them is by their number. All wehrmacht panzer abteilungs starts with the number 5.
e.g sPz abt 503. All the SS panzer abteilungs start with the number 1 e.g. s. SS Pz Abt 101.

Also for all the SS panzer abteilungs their last number in the code denotes which division they come from. e.g. s. SS Pz Abt 101 is from the 1st SS division LSSAH, s. SS Pz Abt 102 is from the 2nd Ss division 2Das Reich etc.

Although just before the battle of the bulge the SS panzer abteilungs changed their number so they too starts with 5, they still retained the notation SS. e.g s. SS Pz Abt 101 is changed to s. SS Pz Abt 501

HG
12-08-2005, 05:40 PM
I have read that the SS did use Porsche King Tiger tanks and never as far as I know did a Porsche Tiger 1 go into production or father than that of the prototype. please correct me if I am right but as far as I know the Porsche turret did not have the great protection as the Henschel turret had if it came to protection against enemy shels hitting the turret. The Porsche turret King Tiger tanks were not in such great numbers as the Henschel King Tiger tanks. I have never see a Porsche King Tiger in a museum. Have eny of you seen one? So yes the SS did use Porsche King Tigers. Only other tank that I know of that have a turret like King Tiger Porsche turret is the Panther.

Henk

Landstorm
12-09-2005, 08:27 AM
Thanks! But could you tell me which SS division used the Porsche king tigers? So I can search for its paint scheme. Since i am making a model of this beast.

oh by the way I think all of the porsche king tigers are destroyed in the battle for Normandy. So that's why there is no porsche's in the museums today. And might never be!

Landstorm
12-09-2005, 08:43 AM
Porsche turret did not have the great protection as the Henschel turret had if it came to protection against enemy shels hitting the turret

Well i think it depends. The shape of the front mantlet of Porsche king tigers is curved so it does have less protection against APs compared to Henschel's flat one, since Porsche's traps shots. But the sides of the turret on Porsche's have steeper slopes than that on a Henschel, so it should deflect shells better than Henschel's. :)

chase
12-09-2005, 09:31 PM
No, it is not true.
As for machine guns, each King Tiger had 2 x 7,92 mm MG

Not Porsche King Tigers, Porsche Tiger I's.
Check this:
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/tanks_heavy/pzkpfw_vib.html
Also Tiger I had 2 MG: http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/tanks_heavy/pzkpfw_vie.html

Huh? Thats strange. I read somewhere that Tigers lacked machine guns, allowing Russian infantry to advance right up to the Tigers and torch the crews with flamethrowers during Kursk.

Guess they messed that up

Landstorm
12-10-2005, 06:33 AM
Huh? Thats strange. I read somewhere that Tigers lacked machine guns, allowing Russian infantry to advance right up to the Tigers and torch the crews with flamethrowers during Kursk.

That's a Ferdinand Tiger destroyer, which is a quick convertion of the failed porsche Tiger 1 design. A formidable anti tank weapon but it's a pitty only 90 were built.

HG
12-10-2005, 06:44 AM
Some of the Tigers 1 and King Tigers had machine guns on top of the turret as far as I know and the turret and the hull of the tank to fight of infantry.

I am so sorry but I do not have any information of which SS divisions it was.

Henk

Landstorm
12-10-2005, 06:48 AM
no problem, thanks any way.

Dani
12-27-2005, 11:33 AM
http://img283.imageshack.us/img283/4220/bild1065wz.jpg

From http://www.panzer-archiv.de/content/galerie.php?f=106

HG
12-27-2005, 04:28 PM
Dani you are a star, thank you for the picture. They are quite rare.

Henk

Dani
12-27-2005, 06:05 PM
Dankie Henk! :wink:

HG
12-27-2005, 06:11 PM
Do you speak Afrikaans or Dutch Dani? I Have only a few pictures of Porsche King Tigers. They are not so great. Do have some more for me please?

Henk

Dani
12-27-2005, 06:36 PM
http://img491.imageshack.us/img491/784/koing52rg.jpg
The above picture from different view.
http://www.panzerplatte.de/P%20VII%20technik.html

As for Afrikaans or Dutch, no :( (but is good to know few words! :D )

cpl condor
12-27-2005, 08:55 PM
Dani, these are a fantastics pictures, thanks!!! :arrow: