The 'holocaust',new thread..

[Blitz]

What and who are holocaust deniers? :?:

[Crab_to_be]

Wiki-strike incoming!

Click Me (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denier)

Edited to add: Can we also merge this with the existing holocaust thread to achieve some measure of tidyness. I've moved it here as it was incorrectly originally posted in 'off-topic'. My modly privileges don't give me the power to perform the next stage.

[2nd of foot]

I thought it was Irving who thought that an alien race of lizards was secretly running the world, or is that another nut?

[Crab_to_be]

I thought it was Irving who thought that an alien race of lizards was secretly running the world, or is that another nut?

Aye. The convicted forger of historical documents, David Irving, is the author of many popular references cited in the Barnes Review and also on of the most 'respectable' of the holocaust deniers.

Edited to clarify: David Irving is a well known holocaust denier. David Icke appears to be the lizard bloke. Both producers of equally valid historical works, I suspect.

[Bladensburg]

I thought it was Irving who thought that an alien race of lizards was secretly running the world, or is that another nut?

Are you not thinking of David Icke?

[2nd of foot]

Yep that’s the one. It must be his anti-Semitic babling that made me think he was Irving.

In 1999, he published a book claiming that the world had been taken over by a race of reptiles called the Babylonian Brotherhood, and that some prominent people were in fact lizards, including George H. W. Bush, the Queen Mother, and Kris Kristofferson. He has also claimed that members of the Bush family perform human sacrifices; that Henry Kissinger abuses children; and that Queen Elizabeth II is a satanist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke

That last bit will not go down well with the CofE.

[Bladensburg]

Yep that’s the one. It must be his anti-Semitic babling that made me think he was Irving.

In 1999, he published a book claiming that the world had been taken over by a race of reptiles called the Babylonian Brotherhood, and that some prominent people were in fact lizards, including George H. W. Bush, the Queen Mother, and Kris Kristofferson. He has also claimed that members of the Bush family perform human sacrifices; that Henry Kissinger abuses children; and that Queen Elizabeth II is a satanist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke

That last bit will not go down well with the CofE.


Some of that I can understand but why in the name of feck is he so worried about Kris Kristofferson? :shock: :roll:

Takes all the fun out of a game of Spot the loony doesn't he? :wink:

[Firefly]

SO what or who ARE the Holocaust Deniers then? :?:

[Blitz]

Thats what I asked Firefly. Why all the continued nasty remarks? But thats ok. I understand.
Would one be considered a holocaust denier if he(she) denied the Romans killed 4 Billion Jews? Of course. But do any of you believe it?

[2nd of foot]

Did the Romans kill 4 billion Jews? What was the population of the world at that time? It has only just reached 6 billion. Was it a systematic killing to remove an ethnic group or part of conquest of a region?

You have thrown in a comment without clarification and you still have not answer other comments directed at you.

[Crab_to_be]

The most comprehensive answer I have found to date is provided in a link on the second post in this topic. Perhaps I should reproduce it in full here as some people are not only too idle to look the answer up themselves, but too idle to click on a single link. They are probably also too idle to read it even if reproduced here. Why bother if you can't even spoon feed someone information?

[2nd of foot]

Horse and water come to mind!!! :roll:

[Crab_to_be]

Thats what I asked Firefly. Why all the continued nasty remarks? But thats ok. I understand.
Would one be considered a holocaust denier if he(she) denied the Romans killed 4 Billion Jews? Of course. But do any of you believe it?

Perhaps if you clicked the link, you'd find the answer spelt out in black and white, quite possibly with the aid of diagrams too. In answer to the particular question quoted, the answer is no. That is because the accepted usage of the term 'holocaust denier' refers to 'one who denies the holocaust'. The use of the definite article is important, as it means the word' holocaust' refers to a particular event, namely the industrialised attempt to exterminate the jewish people undertaken by Nazi Germany. That would exclude activities by the Romans.

You seem to have phrased the question as a rhetorical statement though. This gives the misleading impression that you believe that someone who believes that the Romans killed 4 billion jews is a holocaust denier. Using information from UNRV History (http://www.unrv.com) it appears that Rome came to exert major influence over the land corresponding approximately to present day Israel (http://www.unrv.com/provinces/judaea.php) in about 64 BC. The land was conquered by Arab forces in 638 AD, taking it from the Byzantine Empire. This means that a force that could be in some way described as Roman controlled Judaea / Syria Palaestinae for a period not exceeding approximately 700 years. To kill four billion Jews in that period (this assumes that the Jewish population was concentrated in Judaea), the Romans would need to have killed 5.7 million Jews each year. Thats a number comparable to the present day Jewish population of the state of Israel. These numbers are implausible. Thus, we have reasonable grounds to doubt the claims until some evidence is offered.

[Blitz]

Crab,I agree with you. The same could be said for '6 mill' in 1945. What was the world pop. of jews then,and now? As far as the Romans under Emperor Hadrian killing 4 billion jews,That is not from me.That is from the 'Talmad'. From the Jews themselves. I believe the Talmud is the foundation of Jewish religious teachings. Yes it is hard to believe 4 bill. So why should one believe the 6 mill? I am just asking.

[BDL]

Crab,I agree with you. The same could be said for '6 mill' in 1945. What was the world pop. of jews then,and now? As far as the Romans under Emperor Hadrian killing 4 billion jews,That is not from me.That is from the 'Talmad'. From the Jews themselves. I believe the Talmud is the foundation of Jewish religious teachings. Yes it is hard to believe 4 bill. So why should one believe the 6 mill? I am just asking.

Because there are plenty of people who lived through the horror of the camps that can testify to massive numbers of deaths?

Because there are massive piles of shoes, spectacles etc taken from the Jews preserved in Auschwitz?

Because the Nazis were a bunch of pricks who would have been more than happy to kill more than 6,000,000 Jews and who wrote about machine gunning thousands of Jews in a single day (several times - both Jews and Russians)?

[Firefly]

Also, Id like to add that the Nazis also killed 12 million plus Russian civillians and countless others, not to mention about 1/3 of the non-Jewish Polish population.

In my opinion they should be included too.

[Crab_to_be]

Crab,I agree with you. The same could be said for '6 mill' in 1945. What was the world pop. of jews then,and now? As far as the Romans under Emperor Hadrian killing 4 billion jews,That is not from me.That is from the 'Talmad'. From the Jews themselves. I believe the Talmud is the foundation of Jewish religious teachings. Yes it is hard to believe 4 bill. So why should one believe the 6 mill? I am just asking.

I will give this a similar numerical analysis. Applying conservative estimates, the industrialised extermination policy ran from 1941 to 1945, although it would be foolish to restrict the officially endorsed period of Jew-killing to this period. That is a three year period to kill six million jews. Six million has been chosen as a common estimate of the number of Jews killed in the holocaust. That works out as 2 million per year (nearest million). At the time of the holocaust, the world jewish population was between 17 (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/worldpop.html) and 18 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew) million. That would require killing at most one eighth of the world Jewish population per year over a three year period. That's a huge number, but plausible for an industrialised policy of extermination.

Compare 1/8 - 1/9 jews killed every year for three years with between ten and 100 times the world jewish population killed every year for seven hundred years for a plausibility check. That is the first difference between the two examples.

The second subtle difference is that there is meticulous documentation relating to the final solution, a significant kink downwards in the jewish population of the world, and significant first hand accounts from survivors, guards and liberators of the camp, notwithstanding BDL's points above.

My last piece of personal evidence comes from my time at school. Because of its location, approximately half of the pupils were jewish. Not all were practising. Almost everyone had lost a grandparent / great aunt or uncle in the holocaust. This is distinct from those who died fighting, died of illnesses or allied bombing - purely those bundled onto trains heading east, never to be seen again. One of my closest friends was under the impression until the last few years that only his paternal grandfather had been killed during the holocaust. This turned out not to be the full truth. He visited his maternal grandmother's family home in the Czech Republic. His great grandfather, and five of his grandmother's six siblings were disappeared overnight during the 1940s. The grandmother had never spoken of the siblings, talking only of the great grandfather who had stayed behind to keep the family business running while her and her mother fled. The first the current family knew of this was a set of unfamiliar names next to marks on the wall indicating the growth of children.

I would be interested to see where this figure of four billion comes from. I suspect you don't read ancient hebrew, or have access to a Talmud, so it must be from a secondary source. My initial suspicion is that four billion is a distinctly non-biblical number. The Old Testament tends to have reverted to 'innumerable' or 'a thousand times a thousand' when numbering large quantities and the Talmud would be expected to follow similar trends in the original ancient hebrew.

Finally to Firefly - the Wiki Holocaust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust) pages do include those other groups, ethnic and otherwise. I think the distinction is drawn between those killed as part of industrialised extermination and those killed through mass scale inhumanity. As I have said before, although it will bear frequent reiteration, the peculiar horror of the holocaust was the application of industrial techniques to achieve a genocidal aim. This should not detract in any way from the many other horrors visited upon humanity by Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia. One should also bear in mind that although the Nazis inflicted horror on the Soviets and vice versa, it was individual human beings who perpetrated and endured them.

tweaked for clarity!

[Man of Stoat]

As far as the Romans under Emperor Hadrian killing 4 billion jews,That is not from me.That is from the 'Talmad'.

I'm having a bit of trouble finding the part in the Talmud that says this. Could you give some indication of where in the Talmud that figure can be found?

[2nd of foot]

As I understand it Hadrian was a Roman about 2000 years ago and built good walls. Unfortunately they have not been kept up to scratch and foreigners are getting over them. Do you think that is what Blitz meant in his earlier post? :) The Talmud was written a number of years prior to this, so either the period is wrong or the info is wrong or I am waffling as normal. :oops:

[pdf27]

Because the Nazis were a bunch of pricks who would have been more than happy to kill more than 6,000,000 Jews and who wrote about machine gunning thousands of Jews in a single day (several times - both Jews and Russians)?
Not only that, they were obsessively up to date with their paperwork, and we have documented evidence provided by them as to the numbers killed in particular areas and where those people come from. Tally this together with pre- and post-war census data and you get another number. Add in the witness statements from survivors (not by any means all Jewish - many others including a number of allied PoWs were held in the same camps) and those from the people who liberated the camps, coupled with the forensic evidence left behind. These can all be examined, and each time you will come to a figure of approximately 6 million, give or take rather a lot (more likely to be an underestimate as in places entire extended families were exterminated). On top of that you have to add the 2 million or so others (mainly Roma, with some Communists, Homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholic Priests, etc.) exterminated in the camps and the very large numbers (roughly 4 million) Soviet PoWs who were executed or deliberately starved to death. There is a very great deal of supporting evidence indeed for all these crimes, and this was in fact used at the Nuremburg Trials.

[PzKpfw VI Tiger]

Because the Nazis were a bunch of pricks who would have been more than happy to kill more than 6,000,000 Jews and who wrote about machine gunning thousands of Jews in a single day (several times - both Jews and Russians)?
Not only that, they were obsessively up to date with their paperwork

Obsessive Compulsive? :shock:

[Blitz]

It is in the Talmud. You can look it up if you wish.(Gittin 58-a) As i stated not from me. And while your at it,read a little bit more. Very interesting to non-Jews and to Christians.
In Oct. 1919.New york Gov. Martin Glynn gave a speech in Albany,NY. reporting on the "holocaust of 6 mill. Jewish men and woman during ww1.
"The Crucifixion of Jews Must stop" and it was printed in the 10/31/19 American Hebrew magazine,published by the American Jewish Committee.
6 mill didn't die in ww1 and no serious historian believes they did.
These are a couple of examples as to why I question 6 mill or anywhere near it in ww2.

[Bladensburg]

The largest number that the Romans used was the million and they were the most numerically literate people in the western world at the time so I doubt the fairly small and insignificant Jewish nation had any concept of the "billion". In fact I suspect that the concept didn't really come about until the 18th/19th centuries and even then it was unclear - Britain used one billion to mean one million million, 10E12 (1,000,000,000,000 - How do you do superscript in HTML?) whereas the US used one thousand million, 10E9 (1,000,000,000).

Hadrian was emperor 117-138 meaning that his legions would have had to get through nearly 200 million jews a year! There was an uprising during his reign and Trajan's before it but I doubt there were more than a few million jews in the entire world at the time.

[Crab_to_be]

It is in the Talmud. You can look it up if you wish.(Gittin 58-a) As i stated not from me. And while your at it,read a little bit more. Very interesting to non-Jews and to Christians.
In Oct. 1919.New york Gov. Martin Glynn gave a speech in Albany,NY. reporting on the "holocaust of 6 mill. Jewish men and woman during ww1.
"The Crucifixion of Jews Must stop" and it was printed in the 10/31/19 American Hebrew magazine,published by the American Jewish Committee.
6 mill didn't die in ww1 and no serious historian believes they did.
These are a couple of examples as to why I question 6 mill or anywhere near it in ww2.

As I said before, I don't believe you can read ancient hebrew or have access to a copy of the Talmud. Therefore, you must have heard this claim from another book. No one I know has heard anything about this, and internet searching doesn't give any hints of where to start. The largest estimate I have found is a jewish site that claims approximately one million Jews died over a sixty year period including the Great Revolt and the Bar Kokhba revolt. I have to say that I have never heard the suggestion of the Talmud claiming four billion jewish deaths at Roman hands before, and there's not a peep about it on t'internet. I'll need pointing in the right direction to find out more. Gittin 58-a refers to an army of four hundred thousand, but not a massacre of four billion. Other places point me at sites with domains like 'nukeisrael.com' which fail an objectivity test.

When looking at the language used in primary sources, it is important to note the age of the source. The two sources you quote are obviously not referring to what is currently know as the Holocaust. Your comment, however, is cut and paste from this site (http://www.zundelsite.org/english/zgrams/zg2001/zg0109/010901.html). In fact, almost your entire post has been cut and pasted from there. It's the site of a self proclaimed historical revisionist and holocaust denier.

In the light of what I have found searching for Glynn's speech, I was going to have to re-write the above. I'll let it stand. I have found some internet sources for what you have written.
The National Socialist Movement (http://www.nsm88.com/articles/holohoax/backto1902.html) - speaks for itself
Zundelsite (http://www.zundelsite.org/english/zgrams/zg2001/zg0109/010901.html) - a historical revisionist and self-proclaimed holocaust denier
and more and more historical revisionist sites with an obvious anti-semitic bent.

I've tried to find out about the American hebrew magazine. Unfortunately, the only American Hebrew anything I have found is a school that opened in 2001, or mentions of that magazine on neo-nazi and historical revisionist websites.

May I suggest the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a source of similarly reliable material?

[Gen. Sandworm]

Well maybe those 6 million people are on the moon then............oh wait that didnt really happen either..................shit those guys could be anywhere.

Firstly I would like to point out that 6 million people dying at the hands of the Nazi's during a 12 year period is reasonable. 4 billion people dying in a 21 year period is just crazy.

Take a look at the transcripts of the Wanssee conferance and tell me you think they didnt reach that number. So the number might be off but I would say its definatly between 5 and 7 million. It hard to say. The number could be higher we dont know.

[Firefly]

Got to agree with the Gen here. All the evidence is there to prove it happened. If someone chooses not to believe it, then nothing we can do here will change it.

Sorry just read back to this:

Finally to Firefly - One should also bear in mind that although the Nazis inflicted horror on the Soviets and vice versa, it was individual human beings who perpetrated and endured them.

I would like to point out that the deliberate mass starvation of whole Ukranian populations for example, the systematic deportation of millions of humans to slave labour camps etc is not the work of individuals. It too was a calculated cold blooded act designed to rid Europe of the Slavic populations. Yes I agree with the Holocaust, but there were many millions more who sufferred more than just the estimated 5-7 million Jews.

In a crazy twisted sort of way, perhaps some of those Gypsies gassed in the Camps sufferred less than Ukranian peasant women worked to death over 3 years and continually raped and brutalised.

All of this brutality was a direct result of deliberate State policy by the Nazis. All of it should be included as a Holocaust and not just the Jewish part. To deny part, is to deny all.........

[Dani]

I
In Oct. 1919.New york Gov. Martin Glynn gave a speech in Albany,NY. reporting on the "holocaust of 6 mill. Jewish men and woman during ww1.
"The Crucifixion of Jews Must stop" and it was printed in the 10/31/19 American Hebrew magazine,published by the American Jewish Committee.
6 mill didn't die in ww1 and no serious historian believes they did.
These are a couple of examples as to why I question 6 mill or anywhere near it in ww2.

Your comment, however, is cut and paste from this site (http://www.zundelsite.org/english/zgrams/zg2001/zg0109/010901.html). In fact, almost your entire post has been cut and pasted from there. It's the site of a self proclaimed historical revisionist and holocaust denier.


From http://www.zundelsite.org/english/zgrams/zg2001/zg0109/010901.html
in October 1919 (!) New York Governor Martin Glynn gave a speech in Albany, New York reporting on the "holocaust [of] six million Jewish men and women" who were dying due to the "awful tyranny of war and a bigoted lust for Jewish blood" during World War I. (!)
Glynn's speech, entitled "The Crucifixion of Jews Must Stop" was printed in the October 31, 1919 (!) issue of the "American Hebrew Magazine," published by the American Jewish Committee.
The truth is that six million Jews did not die during World War I -- and no serious historian believes today that they did.

WTF?? Blitz, firstly, you will add from now on each source of your posts (each url from where you'll copy and paste).

Secondly, what do you want frankly??


For remberance: fareast.... :lol: :lol:

Edited: FIY: The white man is a evil breed from hell which will take over the world.
Blitz, fareast WAS banned. Be careful!

[Crab_to_be]

Sorry just read back to this:

Finally to Firefly - One should also bear in mind that although the Nazis inflicted horror on the Soviets and vice versa, it was individual human beings who perpetrated and endured them.

I would like to point out that the deliberate mass starvation of whole Ukranian populations for example, the systematic deportation of millions of humans to slave labour camps etc is not the work of individuals. It too was a calculated cold blooded act designed to rid Europe of the Slavic populations. Yes I agree with the Holocaust, but there were many millions more who sufferred more than just the estimated 5-7 million Jews.

In a crazy twisted sort of way, perhaps some of those Gypsies gassed in the Camps sufferred less than Ukranian peasant women worked to death over 3 years and continually raped and brutalised.

All of this brutality was a direct result of deliberate State policy by the Nazis. All of it should be included as a Holocaust and not just the Jewish part. To deny part, is to deny all.........

Apologies Firefly and others for my woolly thinking - I have worded my point about individuals very poorly. It didn't help that I mixed up two related but different ideas together.

(3rd draft) Each of these atrocities we talk of are perpetrated against abstract groups, but experienced by the individuals of those groups. The perpetrators are all individuals, acting in concert towards a particular aim. Thinking purely in terms of one abstract group inflicting a horror upon another dehumanises the events to a certain extent. This makes it easier to think about, but easier to justify too. To the Nazis, the Jews weren't a number of individuals with a common ethnic background (Nazi definition was based on heritage, not practising members of the religion) but an abstract group, whose components were merely nonhuman numbers. The slavic 'untermensch' were similarly regarded. Once we stop thinking about such groups being made up of individuals, it is much easier to demonise them, which is an early step on the way to much worse things.

I'm not quite happy with the wording, but I hope this gets the point across better.

edited to add: On the mass starvation of Ukrainians. Perpetrated by individuals acting alone - no. But perpetrated by individual human beings acting as an organised group towards a common goal.

[Crab_to_be]

All of this brutality was a direct result of deliberate State policy by the Nazis. All of it should be included as a Holocaust and not just the Jewish part. To deny part, is to deny all.........

I have used a narrow - perhaps too narrow, on the strength of my recent reading for this debate, - definition of the holocaust as a campaign of extermination against the Jews and others conducted predominantly in death camps. I never sought to deny that this was but one of many evil acts of Nazi Germany, albeit one with a unique horror - application of industrial methods to achieve genocide. I regard that as a different kind of horror becuase it goes beyond mere contempt or hatred. Calm, rational thought was used to work out the most efficient way of achieving this, along the same lines as moving coal or manufacturing cars. I omitted the widespread massacres of Soviet PoWs and civillians not because I do not believe they happened or were less horrible, but because I didn't consider them to be within the terms of this debate.

[Firefly]

Fair points all. My comments were not however aimed specifically at you, apologies if they came across this way. My main point was that many things can be constitued as a Holocaust and there are many other ethnic groups that sufferred as much, if not more than the Jewish population and by mostly the same methods.

I'm damned well sure that if the war had gone on another 2 years many other ethnic groups would have been factory killed instead of deliberately brutalised.

I personaly, just dont think we should elevate one above all the rest, thats all.

[Dani]

Edited: FIY: The white man is a evil breed from hell which will take over the world.
Blitz, fareast WAS banned. Be careful!

...And Blitz, this was not a threat, it was just an information and an advice!

[Blitz]

Dani, please explain your above post. I don't understand it.

[Dani]

The above quoted post belongs to a banned user (asiatic for your information). It was an example of racist post. You are on a thin line between racist posts and regular post.

So my advice is to be careful with your posts.

[Blitz]

Again,,,,Look it up. I did ,you can. (Talmud) It's not hard to do.

Speaking of "industializzzed killing camps?" What are they? How was this accomplished. Where were they? And again, No need to get nasty.Just because you may be afraid to question the 'holocaust doesn't mean others have to be. And when someone does,that does not give you the right to be so nasty. Something even the mod's seem to do.

[Blitz]

Dani, how were my posts racist? Just what did say??

[FluffyBunnyGB]

I don't believe the figure of 4 billion Jews killed by the Romans is credible. From the figures I posted (with references) in another thread

http://www.ww2incolor.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=944&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

the total World population in 1 AD is estimated in a range between 150 and 400 million.

[Dani]

And by the way fiefly (almost sounds like superfly) Are you black?Which is ok. I know your country is in real bad shape with them .The U.S.A. is catching up. Mostly with Mex's. It is not directed to whites only. (TBR)It also has black history also.Even British, Irish Russian etc. You trash what you no nothing about. What's new?At any rate, I am Proud of my (white)heritage. Thanks for your reply 'buddy' :D

This post was already discussed.

And there are the thin line.

[Crab_to_be]

Again,,,,Look it up. I did ,you can. (Talmud) It's not hard to do.

Speaking of "industializzzed killing camps?" What are they? How was this accomplished. Where were they? And again, No need to get nasty.Just because you may be afraid to question the 'holocaust doesn't mean others have to be. And when someone does,that does not give you the right to be so nasty. Something even the mod's seem to do.

I tried to look it up. Your figures are present only in websites containing almost identical wording to your post. I ask for the third time for you to say where you read this. I do not think you read it in the original hebrew, or have access to a Talmud, therefore you have read this in a secondary source. Which? Reference it directly, hard copy or url. Reference it in a manner that is utterly unambiguous. I have yet to see a single plausible site which makes your claim of 4 billion. For reference, a site widely decorated with swastikas does not make a plausible source of information on Jewish or hebrew matters.

As for where these camps are - as a start point, Dachau, Bergen-Belsen, and Auschwitz-Birkenau. You will need to distinguish between work camps, which 'merely' killed people in large numbers due to the conditions and those which were purpose built for killing. Whether or not you believe the information, the wikipedia provides excellent starting points for research.

So far, you have yet to demonstrate any original thought. You repeatedly ask us to read more widely and consider the wider truth. Yet, where you have bothered to provide any information, it comes from websites with titles like 'nukeisrael.com' that tend to have logos incorporating swastikas or refer to national socialism as a well respected political movement. Do these sound like a wide range of differing viewpoints, or have you followed their information so slavishly without thinking that your posts are in fact text taken verbatim from these sites?

[2nd of foot]

I, like a number of others who have lived in Germany have visited one or two of the camp (Dachau in my case). They are real, they are there, I have spent the day walking round one.

You also have film of the camps in action taken by the Nazis to show what they are doing. For many years the Canadian government would not use the information gained on hypothermia.

You also have war correspondence that arrived at the time of liberation of a camp and filmed it. You have the evidence of a number of British SOE agents who were kept in different parts of the camps.

Was all this a big hoax built by Hollywood?

Nothing you have provided so far disproves it happened, you are just quibbling over the number.

[Firefly]

I, like a number of others who have lived in Germany have visited one or two of the camp (Dachau in my case). They are real, they are there, I have spent the day walking round one.


I too have spent quite a while in Germany, and co-incidentally have visited Dachau too.

Even my German friends dont doubt it happened.

Its foolish to even try and deny it.

[Blitz]

Dani, I asked a question and I said it was ok. Not racist.
Dachau, fine. There were no "so-called "death camps" in Germany. Even your Simon Weisenthal the 'famous Nazi hunter admitted to that. He said they were all in Poland. I do not know how to paste and copy like y'll do.So, I two finger it. And there were no Nazi banners. More propaganda.

The concentration camps were not death camps,unlike the Boer War where the concentration camps were, death camps.Some 26,000 ,unarmed woman and children died.

Did ya look up the Talmud yet?

[Blitz]

And by the way,Your German friends CAN'T disagree. I do believe it is against the law there. The hooscow.

[Firefly]

Dani, I asked a question and I said it was ok. Not racist.
Dachau, fine. There were no "so-called "death camps" in Germany. Even your Simon Weisenthal the 'famous Nazi hunter admitted to that. He said they were all in Poland. I do not know how to paste and copy like y'll do.So, I two finger it. And there were no Nazi banners. More propaganda.

The concentration camps were not death camps,unlike the Boer War where the concentration camps were, death camps.Some 26,000 ,unarmed woman and children died.

Did ya look up the Talmud yet?

I think in the begginning the camps were for those that the Nazis considered politically and socially unworthy, that would be communists and Homosexuals etc. Thats not to say that many in the early 30's didnt die in them.

As for the british concentration camps in S Africa, its true that thousands died in them, from neglect and disease. But it wasnt government policy to exterminate the populace, more the inepness of the shamefull British officials that run them, something that was brought to light in the British press of the day I may add. Thats not what happened in Nazi Germany.

[Crab_to_be]

Dani, I asked a question and I said it was ok. Not racist.
Dachau, fine. There were no "so-called "death camps" in Germany. Even your Simon Weisenthal the 'famous Nazi hunter admitted to that. He said they were all in Poland. I do not know how to paste and copy like y'll do.So, I two finger it. And there were no Nazi banners. More propaganda.

The concentration camps were not death camps,unlike the Boer War where the concentration camps were, death camps.Some 26,000 ,unarmed woman and children died.

Did ya look up the Talmud yet?

Again, be so kind as to source your remarks. It is disingenuous to draw such close parallels between the use of concentration camps in the Boer war and the Second World War. Background reading will reveal considerable differences in intent.

Finally, please fulfill this request one way or the other: Either claim explicitly that you read the claim of four billion yourself from the Talmud in ancient hebrew or reference the book / website where you saw this claim. I say again that I have found no reputable source for the figure of four billion.

edit on re-reading Blitz's remark above: The German Vernichtungslagern were not death camps, while the British concentration camps in the Boer war were? That's either a typo or your most brazen lie to date. I'm beginning to think you're trolling.

edited again to insert correct german term

[Firefly]

Isnt he

. Even your Simon Weisenthal the 'famous Nazi hunter

Just Mr Weisenthal? Why would you put the word your in front of his name?


I see you try to come across as a reasonable guy, but let slip what your real thoughts may perhaps be?

Do you think Danni is a Jew?

[Dani]

Even your Simon Weisenthal the 'famous Nazi hunter admitted to that.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Once I was named on this site "Dani, the killer of the Jews". Now this guy thinks I am a Jew. :lol: :lol: :lol:

What means to be moderator!! This is a good one!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

No mate, I am not a Jew. As explain in OTHER thread (which obviously, you hadn't time - or mood - for reading) I am Catholic Christian.

[Crab_to_be]

I'm still waiting on him to reference his sources. 'Look it up' isn't a referencing technique I'm familiar with. A more suspicious mind might think he just trawls nazi websites and posts their claims here without even attempting debate.

[Gen. Sandworm]

Isnt he

. Even your Simon Weisenthal the 'famous Nazi hunter

Just Mr Weisenthal? Why would you put the word your in front of his name?


I see you try to come across as a reasonable guy, but let slip what your real thoughts may perhaps be?

Do you think Danni is a Jew?

:shock: :shock: :shock:

[student-scaley]

Do you think Danni is a Jew?

Does it matter? Should it matter?

I personally feel that Blitz's comments whereby he claims that Nazi concentration camps were not death camps unlike the British ones in South africa (an exceptional shameful incident in British history that IMHO is not publicised enough to British schoolchildren) is extremely distasteful and makes a mockery of the suffering endured by those who endured and in some cases died in those ghastly conditions. I think an apology should be forthcoming on this issue.

[2nd of foot]

And to put into context similar number of British troops died at that time due to lack of care by the same command system. The concentration camps in SA was a method of denying food to the commandos not to deliberately kill the families, as in the case of nazi camps.

Blitz you seem to be using others crime committed by other nations (generally white) to justify the crimes of the nazi leadership. You have used the Romans, US policy against the Indians, US eugenics policy, which I think went on into the 50s, and now the British tactic in SA.

The crimes of the nazi leadership cannot be defended by saying “but they did this”. They are indefensible.

[Bladensburg]

Judging by the amount of corpses left lying around (see the Dimbleby reference previously mentioned) I think that one could say that the eventual function of Belsen was extermination and that was in Germany.

[Topor]

OK Blitz, I'LL post what others are skirting around.
You are an apologist for a regime that caused Millions of deaths, a racist & a Holocaust denier of the worst kind.
Now kindly piss off back to the fantasy from whence you came.

Your kind deserve ANYTHING they get.

FOAD

[LargeBrew]

I read an interesting essay by Prof John C Zimmerman that addresses many of the claims made by deniers like Faurisson and Irving. I can't post the link at the moment but if you search "Body disposal at Auschwitz" you will find though long it is well worth a read.

I'm too busy with work to get as involved with this topic as I would like and though I do like a heated debate find that this subject makes me feel too angry, I had similar feelings around the SS debate a few months back.

Ive come across a fair few apologists and deniers in my time, the vast majority being of the knuckle dragging type who should be glad that eugenics did'nt really catch on post war as they would have been prime candidates for gonadectomy.

Topor I think Meat loaf said it best in that song from the Bat out of Hell Album," you took the words right out of my mouth".

[Crab_to_be]

I read an interesting essay by Prof John C Zimmerman that addresses many of the claims made by deniers like Faurisson and Irving. I can't post the link at the moment but if you search "Body disposal at Auschwitz" you will find though long it is well worth a read.

Body Disposal (http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/body-disposal/)

The essay is clearly referenced at all times and the arguments are developed logically from consistent start points. I second LargeBrew's recommendation wholeheartedly, having read the essay for the first time this morning.

[Firefly]

Just finished reading it, agree with Crab, also Topor seems to have hit the nail where it does the most use......

[Bladensburg]

On the subject of concentration camps as a means of extermination I think that you'll find that the Germans pretty much invented the idea in modern times.

It wasn't in Europe against the Jews though, but in South West Africa (now Namibia) against the Herero natives. This is one of the most sickening examples of colonial excess after the Belgian Congo and one of the reasons why the post WWI allies were so insistent on Germany relinquishing it's colonies.

Sample Links:
http://www.ppu.org.uk/genocide/g_namibia1.html
http://www.henckert.com/karibib/concentration.htm

[Tsolias]

OK Blitz, I'LL post what others are skirting around.
You are an apologist for a regime that caused Millions of deaths, a racist & a Holocaust denier of the worst kind.
Now kindly piss off back to the fantasy from whence you came.

Your kind deserve ANYTHING they get.

FOAD

I'll second that.

[Blitz]

[link removed by Dani]

I am quite sure you will post your usuall compliments.

I have not called anyone a jew. Though its hard to tell.
Mod's? I f I were to post 1/2 the posts directed at me, banned.Hypocrites.

Where is all your proof guys? Hear say,torture etc. ? Where are all the written orders for such a massive undertaking?Some industry, Those little pills-bury dough boy ovens sure could not do the job. How long does it take to burn a body?
From 1943?-45, 6 mill?a lot of hustle needed there. War on two fronts, Tough enough to feed the civies and soldiers. Transport troops etc. Even if there were a policy to exterminate,at that point and time....
Bodies, Typhus. Clothes were gassed,not people. The bombings caused a lack of food med. etc. Hence,the bodies. I have seen pic. of liberated inmates that looked pretty darnded healthy. Besides,What about the other 55mill. or so that got killed in ww2? Why should any one group of people get so much attention? It is a money$ maker. There is your industry.

[BDL]

S******t is of course THE best place on the web for any reference material about Jews.

[Crab_to_be]

I am quite sure you will post your usuall compliments.

I have not called anyone a jew. Though its hard to tell.
Mod's? I f I were to post 1/2 the posts directed at me, banned.Hypocrites.

Where is all your proof guys? Hear say,torture etc. ? Where are all the written orders for such a massive undertaking?Some industry, Those little pills-bury dough boy ovens sure could not do the job. How long does it take to burn a body?
From 1943?-45, 6 mill?a lot of hustle needed there. War on two fronts, Tough enough to feed the civies and soldiers. Transport troops etc. Even if there were a policy to exterminate,at that point and time....
Bodies, Typhus. Clothes were gassed,not people. The bombings caused a lack of food med. etc. Hence,the bodies. I have seen pic. of liberated inmates that looked pretty darnded healthy. Besides,What about the other 55mill. or so that got killed in ww2? Why should any one group of people get so much attention? It is a money$ maker. There is your industry.
Excuse the profanity, but fuck me are you stupid? You post an openly white supremacist website as a reliable source of material on jewish matters. Have you read nothing of the material posted or linked to here?

[BDL]

Excuse the profanity, but fuck me are you stupid? You post an openly white supremacist website as a reliable source of material on jewish matters. Have you read nothing of the material posted or linked to here?

I'd just like to add ignorant Nazi racist trolling fuckwit.

Had a quick look at [removed] (I'll be needing a shower after it) - some of the topics listed on the front page include 'IQ differences between the races' and 'What is the prority of white supremacy?', from such users as 88Heydrich88 and Whitepride007.

Death really is too good for some people

[Crab_to_be]

Edited to add: For the benefit of non-racist-bastard site users, all of the questions in Blitz's previous posts have been answered in great detail on this very thread.

My final word on the matter: As well as a holocaust denier, Blitz is also ignorant of basic information on that which he denies. He also peddles malicious lies, whether or not he believes them to be true. There is some irony in someone who routinely exhorts us to read more widely and be more open minded referencing a very narrow range of white supremacist websites to support his viewpoints.

[Dani]

[link removed by Dani]

I am quite sure you will post your usuall compliments.

I have not called anyone a jew. Though its hard to tell.
Mod's? I f I were to post 1/2 the posts directed at me, banned.Hypocrites.

Where is all your proof guys? Hear say,torture etc. ? Where are all the written orders for such a massive undertaking?Some industry, Those little pills-bury dough boy ovens sure could not do the job. How long does it take to burn a body?
From 1943?-45, 6 mill?a lot of hustle needed there. War on two fronts, Tough enough to feed the civies and soldiers. Transport troops etc. Even if there were a policy to exterminate,at that point and time....
Bodies, Typhus. Clothes were gassed,not people. The bombings caused a lack of food med. etc. Hence,the bodies. I have seen pic. of liberated inmates that looked pretty darnded healthy. Besides,What about the other 55mill. or so that got killed in ww2? Why should any one group of people get so much attention? It is a money$ maker. There is your industry.


Rules-Please Read

The users also agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, racist, xenophobic, sexually-oriented or any other material that may violate applicable laws. Doing so may lead to the authors of such posts being immediately and permanently banned (and their service provider being informed).



Blitz, I propose you for permanent banning due to your racist url provided.
(Not to mention all other craps written by you). Go back to your sick forum now.

[Bladensburg]

Tried the [removed], I now feel the need to give my eyeballs a good clean.

As to why the deaths of six million Jews is so important? Because of the industrialised nature of the operation, they were not killed by enemy action or by famine or pandemic - in short the normal accidental or neglectfull causes of death in war - they were killed deliberately and methodically because a number of very stupid people took a dislike to one particular group of people.

[Crab_to_be]

Tried the [removed], I now feel the need to give my eyeballs a good clean.

As to why the deaths of six million Jews is so important? Because of the industrialised nature of the operation, they were not killed by enemy action or by famine or pandemic - in short the normal accidental or neglectfull causes of death in war - they were killed deliberately and methodically because a number of very stupid people took a dislike to one particular group of people.

I'd take issue with the term 'stupid'. That the people in charge - those that knew exactly what was happening - were able to organise the holocaust successfully demonstrates intelligence. There was great logistical skill employed to achieve mass murder; skill that took intelligence and rational thought. The frightening combination is that although they were clearly intelligent, they were entirely devoid of morality. Many massacres - as an example, the pogroms of late 19th / early 20th century Tsarist Russia - can be attributed to whipping stupid or poorly educated people into a frenzy. The organisers of the holocaust had a high standard of education and were fully aware not only of what they were doing, but went to great pains to achieve it. That intelligent people can be so immoral is worrying, but it is instructive to bear this in mind when considering such people as the Iranian President.

[Firefly]

That [removed] has some forum, one of the guys avatar is a burning cross for fecks sake!

I am considering joining with the Jesse Owens avtar and calling myself Jazzy-F.

Posts like we brothers should stick together and Yo homeys etc.

By the standards of their conversations there though, I dont think anyone would notice!

I even had to switch my parental control off to access it. I will end with the unbelievity of this:

I wont post the link, but its title is 'White Aryan Baby Drive'

Everyone knows me here and Im not one for insults, but blitz -please Fuck Off and leave decent people from around the world to get along with each other and have reasonable discussions about ww2 you arse!

[Man of Stoat]

Blitz, I suggest you read something other than white supremacist/holocaust denial sites when claiming that people weren't gassed. I suggest in particular Commandant of Auschwitz by Rudolf Hoess, ISBN 1 84212 024 7. This was written when he was awaiting execution to try and justify the mass murders carried out under his command. It is a very cold and calculating book and is quite chilling to read. As it was written by a white supremacist who firmly believed in the Nazi cause it will no doubt appeal to you.

[student-scaley]

Blitz, it chills me to the bone to think that such people as you still exist, especially in America one of the most cosmoplitan countries in the world. I only hope that you oneday come to your senses and realise how mistaken you've been.

[Bladensburg]

Crab, they were stupid because their insistence on sating their racial predjudices contributed to them losing the war.
How else can you describe idealogues who are prepared to waste the sort of resources they did on the "final solution" while fighting a desperate war on several fronts?
How else can you describe people who deport or execute or otherwise render useless some of the brightest minds in their country because of their race?
How else can you describe people prepared to turn vast numbers of people who initially see them as liberators into desparate enemies because they are Slavs?
How else can you describe a system so convoluted that multiple agencies within the state are working at cross purposes and deliberately encouraged not to co-operate in the middle of a war of national survival?

The fact is that the Nazi were mindbogglingly stupid in many ways, admittedly it was not the normal run-of-the-mill incompetance, but like all good haters they let their pathetic dislikes blind them.

[LargeBrew]

I spent my day at a case conference sharing my report with the other members of the team and going at it hammer and tongs for ten hours over the recommendation for either hard time of prolonged psychiatric care for the DPP, we decamped to our favorite post conference watering hole, which is a spit and sawdust pub in Liverpool city centre (for BDL's benefit that would be the Swan in Wood Street) As I stood at the bar trying to catch the eye of the tattooed and pierced goth hottie barmaid I looked at our table. Two Muslims, one British one Pakistani (OJ and lomonade) one Indian Hindu(diet coke) one Nigerian christian(RC Beer) three British Christians(2xCofE 1xRC all beer) one British Jew(beer) and one Kiwi(RC beer) I then looked around the bar which was a mixed bag of bikers, punks, goths,students and various bohemion arty types and to be honest we blended well. During the three hours we spent there our only argument was whose football team ( Everton or Liverpool) got the worse kicking, both having been dumped out of the Carling cup ( except for the Kiwi who supports Man U, so we all take the piss). Now hours later( and far more drunk) having looked at the site posted by Blitz I realise just how much I value the diversity of my co-workers and how their regular visits to my home benefit my childrens growth and acceptance of both racial and cultural diversty. If there is a hell I hope it has a special place for the stormfront crew.
I know this may be a bit off topic and rambling but I hope you all get the point,

[Crab_to_be]

Crab, they were stupid because their insistence on sating their racial predjudices contributed to them losing the war.
How else can you describe idealogues who are prepared to waste the sort of resources they did on the "final solution" while fighting a desperate war on several fronts?
How else can you describe people who deport or execute or otherwise render useless some of the brightest minds in their country because of their race?
How else can you describe people prepared to turn vast numbers of people who initially see them as liberators into desparate enemies because they are Slavs?
How else can you describe a system so convoluted that multiple agencies within the state are working at cross purposes and deliberately encouraged not to co-operate in the middle of a war of national survival?

The fact is that the Nazi were mindbogglingly stupid in many ways, admittedly it was not the normal run-of-the-mill incompetance, but like all good haters they let their pathetic dislikes blind them.

I'll concede that point - otherwise intelligent people do do stupid things, and the activities you describe above are most definitely stupid things.

[Firefly]

I spent my day at a case conference sharing my report with the other members of the team and going at it hammer and tongs for ten hours over the recommendation for either hard time of prolonged psychiatric care for the DPP, we decamped to our favorite post conference watering hole, which is a spit and sawdust pub in Liverpool city centre (for BDL's benefit that would be the Swan in Wood Street) As I stood at the bar trying to catch the eye of the tattooed and pierced goth hottie barmaid I looked at our table. Two Muslims, one British one Pakistani (OJ and lomonade) one Indian Hindu(diet coke) one Nigerian christian(RC Beer) three British Christians(2xCofE 1xRC all beer) one British Jew(beer) and one Kiwi(RC beer) I then looked around the bar which was a mixed bag of bikers, punks, goths,students and various bohemion arty types and to be honest we blended well. During the three hours we spent there our only argument was whose football team ( Everton or Liverpool) got the worse kicking, both having been dumped out of the Carling cup ( except for the Kiwi who supports Man U, so we all take the piss). Now hours later( and far more drunk) having looked at the site posted by Blitz I realise just how much I value the diversity of my co-workers and how their regular visits to my home benefit my childrens growth and acceptance of both racial and cultural diversty. If there is a hell I hope it has a special place for the stormfront crew.
I know this may be a bit off topic and rambling but I hope you all get the point,

Well put mate, its these people that dont think we can get along that make people NOT get along...... Grrrrrrr......

[Man of Stoat]

Just been having a flick through the Hoess book again. A few interesting excerpts:

"The two large crematoria, 1 and 2, were built in the winter of 1942-3 and brought into use in the spring of 1943. They had five three-retort ovens and could cremate about 2,000 bodies in less than 24 hours... the two smaller crematoria, 3 and 4, were capable, according to calculations made by the constructional firm of Topf of Erfurt, of burning about 1,500 bodies within 24 hours." (page 191)

"The highest total of people gassed and cremated within 24 hours was rather more than 9,000. This figure was attained in the summer of 1944, during the action in Hungary, using all the installations except number 3." (page 192)

"Depending on the size of the bodies, up to 3 corpses could be put into one oven retort at the same time. The time required for cremation also depended on this, but on average it took 20 minutes." (page 199)

It also appears that the Germans did attempt to exterminate Jews lying outside their area of control: "Finally there was Spain. Influential circles were approached by German representatives over the question of getting rid of the Jews. But Franco and his followers were against it. Eichmann had little faith in being able to arrange for an extradition." (page 200)

[Dani]

Hoess's testimony at Nurenberg / Nuremberg Trial in 1946:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1946hoess.html

Wannsee protocol:
http://history.hanover.edu/courses/excerpts/111wann.html

Nurenberg / Nuremberg Trial:
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/nuremberg.htm
http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/php/docs_swi.php?DI=1&text=overview

[LargeBrew]

I would hesitate a guess that like Iron man you felt that military service was not for you. Prehaps you are too busy with your malitia group preparing for the war against ZOG. If you would care to look at the list of the 2000 KIA's in Iraq you may notice that a significant proportion would've not only failed the WASP test but would not have been welcome on [removed] yet they not only put their balls on the block but also paid the ultimate price, they are the real American patriots not the likes of you who sit safe behind a computer screen.I could ramble on but rather than that will simply state that you are a complete twat and gobshite.

[Firefly]

Well I see Mr Irving will be sweating right now?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4449948.stm

[LargeBrew]

Draging people like Irving up before the beak is a waste of time as it only gives him the kudos he seeks from the brain donors that believe that sort of piffle. Far better that he should be compelled to wear an " I am a knob please kick me hard" sign on his back

[Topor]

"Pour encourager les autres" seems like a good enough reason to prosecute this sad excuse for a "historian".
Bollox to him. :evil:

[Firefly]

I now see that Mr Irving has admitted that there was indeed a Holocaust after all. Funny what the threat of a Jail term can bring out in someone.

[FluffyBunnyGB]

When I was at school, many many years ago, I was told of a competition that ran in one of the UK newspapers as to what punishment eichmann should receive. I guess this must have been in the 60's when the Israelis had captured him and were about to put him on trial.

I was told that the suggested punishments ranged from having his teeth pulled out without anastheatic to the death penalty (which is what happened in the end of course).

However, what had stuck in the mind of my English teacher was the suggestion that he should be the tour guide at Yad Vashem or one of the other Holocaust memorials, and have to spend the rest of his life admitting his part to the visitors.

My English teacher was a wise man IMHO to have recalled this, and told us youngsters, because it's obviously stuck in my mind as well.

I suggest it might not be a bad punishment for Mr Irving instead of jail.

[SS Tiger]

Did you know that a newspaper in Iran is running a competition to draw a holocaust cartoon in response to the Mohamed cartoons?

Link (http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyid=2006-02-07T141832Z_01_L07723729_RTRUKOC_0_US-RELIGION-CARTOONS-IRAN-HOLOCAUST.xml&rpc=22)

It’s amazing how now people even a big Iranian newspaper will drag up the holocaust just to upset to the Jews.

[Firefly]

Amazing, sometimes I wonder about the World!

[LargeBrew]

Irving has recived Three years hopfully he will send this reflecting on his past while being a prison bitch to some large tutonic psycho.

[Topor]

Irving has recived Three years hopfully he will send this reflecting on his past while being a prison bitch to some large tutonic psycho.

Taking into account his less than appealing physog, I doubt if he'll find a "friend" inside.
People like him, who abuse their positions as "experts" deserve all they get for their attempts to distort Historical facts :evil:

[SS Tiger]

I am confused, why is he being put in prison? I thought we had freedom of speech in Europe? I know what he said was wrong, but I think it’s like Hitler/Starlin to lock him up because of his opinions, is that not what Hitler and Starlin did to their opposition.

[LargeBrew]

Some countries in Europe are very sensitve about their part in the holocaust and have introduced laws to prevent people like Irving spouting their revisionist tosh. In Austria it is against the law to deny the Holocaust so prehaps Irving should have checked out the relevant laws before opening his trap.

I dont agree with the sentence as it will just make him a martyr to his knuckle dragging supporters, some form of community service along the lines of fluffybunny's post would have been better.

[SS Tiger]

Some countries in Europe are very sensitve about their part in the holocaust and have introduced laws to prevent people like Irving spouting their revisionist tosh. In Austria it is against the law to deny the Holocaust so prehaps Irving should have checked out the relevant laws before opening his trap.

Do they have this law in Germany too?

[Dani]

Some countries in Europe are very sensitve about their part in the holocaust and have introduced laws to prevent people like Irving spouting their revisionist tosh. In Austria it is against the law to deny the Holocaust so prehaps Irving should have checked out the relevant laws before opening his trap.

Do they have this law in Germany too?

By the late 1980s, Irving was barred from entering Austria because of his neo-Nazi ties and hate speech. In the early 1990s, a German court found him guilty of breaking laws forbidding the denial of the Nazi extermination of Jews, and he was subsequently fined and barred from entering Germany. Other governments followed suit. In 1992, he was barred from South Africa and Canada, where he was arrested in November 1992 and deported back to the United Kingdom. In an administrative hearing surrounding those events he was found by the hearing office to have engaged in a "total fabrication" in telling a story of an exit from and return to Canada which would have, for technical reasons, made the original deportation order invalid. He was also barred from entering Australia in 1992, a ban he made four unsuccessful legal attempts to overturn.

Irving had visited New Zealand twice before in the 1980s. His intended 2004 visit was refused on the grounds that he had been convicted of offences by a German court, and that at various times had been deported from, and/or refused entry to, Canada, the United States, Italy, and South Africa. "Mr Irving is not permitted to enter New Zealand under the Immigration Act because people who have been deported from another country are refused entry," government spokeswoman Katherine O'Sullivan had told The Press earlier. Irving rejected the ban and attempted to board a Qantas flight for New Zealand from Los Angeles on 17 September 2004. He was not allowed on board. "As far as I'm concerned, the legal battle now begins," he was quoted as saying.

Quoted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving (my bold)

[FluffyBunnyGB]

I believe Germany and france have similar laws forbidding the denial of the Holocaust.

You may consider this runs counter to a principle of free speech, but most countries in the West certainly have laws forbidding the peddling of racial hatred.

To deny the Holocaust happened is to try to excuse it, and that is the start of a slide that leads back towards the Nazis and their perverted idealogy.

Personally, I'm hoping he gets anally raped on a regular basis in the showers. Perhaps then he might reconsider his theory that a shower block can only ever be for showering in .....

[Firefly]

Sadly I think he may be put with the very types that believe his drivel.

[1000ydstare]

Fluffy Bunny GB wrote:
Personally, I'm hoping he gets anally raped on a regular basis in the showers. Perhaps then he might reconsider his theory that a shower block can only ever be for showering in .....

ala American History X :D