Favorite American Fighter/Bomber

[PzKpfw VI Tiger]

What is your favorite American fighter/bomber, used during the war? Mine would have to be the Boeing B-29 Superfortress (for bomber) and for the fighter, the P-51 Mustang. :D What about you guys?

[Hanz Lutz]

P-51 cadillac of the sky. :wink:

[Firefly]

Mine would be the Mosquito.....

[PzKpfw VI Tiger]

P-51 cadillac of the sky. :wink:

:D yes indeed

[Hanz Lutz]

But german FW-190is better four 20mm cannons and 2 mashine guns ..........very good. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:

[PzKpfw VI Tiger]

But german FW-190is better four 20mm cannons and 2 mashine guns ..........very good. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:

:lol: :lol: even if it is though, we are talking American fighters, there's a seperate thread for German fighters :wink:

[Firefly]

Maybe the FW-190 D9, not the other marks though.

[Hanz Lutz]

But german FW-190is better four 20mm cannons and 2 mashine guns ..........very good. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:

:lol: :lol: even if it is though, we are talking American fighters, there's a seperate thread for German fighters :wink:

True sorry :oops: like i said P-51 sky cadillac. :wink:

[Firefly]

Surely the Mosquito was more versatile?

[BDL]

Wow, another thread with no justification given for the answers given.

[PzKpfw VI Tiger]

Wow, another thread with no justification given for the answers given.

Thanks for your off topic post :evil: and what do you think about The Favorite Fighter thread in the German Army section?

[BDL]

Thanks for your off topic post :evil: and what do you think about The Favorite Fighter thread in the German Army section?

For the most part exactly the same as this one, full of people with no justification for their opinions. Would it be so hard to say "my favourite is the P-51D because........"?

All I'm asking for is for people to put a bit of effort into their answers instead of using these threads as a chance to bump their post counts up a bit higher with replies like
"P-51"
"I agree :wink: "

[PzKpfw VI Tiger]

Thanks for your off topic post :evil: and what do you think about The Favorite Fighter thread in the German Army section?

For the most part exactly the same as this one, full of people with no justification for their opinions. Would it be so hard to say "my favourite is the P-51D because........"?

All I'm asking for is for people to put a bit of effort into their answers instead of using these threads as a chance to bump their post counts up a bit higher with replies like
"P-51"
"I agree :wink: "

We are just voicing our oppinions, I'm not going to ask for the people who post here to give armorments, date put into service, max altitude, max speed and all that other stuff.

[BDL]

We are just voicing our oppinions, I'm not going to ask for the people who post here to give armorments, date put into service, max altitude, max speed and all that other stuff.

As you like, I'm sure it would be a more fulfilling debate if just someone on here could put an intelligent reason as to why they prefer the P-51 over the Corsair or the P-38 though.

[Crab_to_be]

Opinions are welcome, as long as they have some argument / discussion / statement of fact which leads to them. Otherwise the statement lacks merit.

[Firefly]

Ok this is my justification for the Mosquito:

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/de-havilland-mosquito-tt35.htm

[PzKpfw VI Tiger]

Seems as if the Mosquito was a very remakable aircraft. But if it was made out of wood, wouldn't it be flamable and vulnerable to flak and gunfire from enemy planes?

[Crab_to_be]

Apparently the mosquito did have flammability issues when used in the far east theatre. Unfortunately I read that a long time ago, so I can't help with any more details - maybe another member can?
It gave stirling service in the European theatre though and I don't recall it having any particular problems due to its wooden nature.

[Firefly]

Seems as if the Mosquito was a very remakable aircraft. But if it was made out of wood, wouldn't it be flamable and vulnerable to flak and gunfire from enemy planes?

Not really any diffrent from a metal ac. For more in depth info check this out:

http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/mosquito1.html

[Firefly]

Apparently the mosquito did have flammability issues when used in the far east theatre. Unfortunately I read that a long time ago, so I can't help with any more details - maybe another member can?
It gave stirling service in the European theatre though and I don't recall it having any particular problems due to its wooden nature.

Maybe this is what you meant, about the glue in the far east?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Mosquito

[festamus]

I always thought wooden aircraft might also meet with, erm, "biological" attack in the jungle...

Oh, and Crab and PzKpfw VI Tiger, on the subject of flammability... We all know wood burns great, but it's worth bearing in mind that Aluminium burns *very* well. In fact, I do remember seeing on a *wooden* crate for an aluminium aircraft part something along the lines of "WARNING! FIRE HAZARD - ALUMINIUM DUST!" :S

[Commando Jordovski]

I like the P-51 -- such an awesome Plane :D

[Cuts]

Thanks for your off topic post :evil: and what do you think about The Favorite Fighter thread in the German Army section?

For the most part exactly the same as this one, full of people with no justification for their opinions. Would it be so hard to say "my favourite is the P-51D because........"?

All I'm asking for is for people to put a bit of effort into their answers instead of using these threads as a chance to bump their post counts up a bit higher with replies like
"P-51"
"I agree :wink: "


We are just voicing our oppinions, I'm not going to ask for the people who post here to give armorments, date put into service, max altitude, max speed and all that other stuff.


As you like, I'm sure it would be a more fulfilling debate if just someone on here could put an intelligent reason as to why they prefer the P-51 over the Corsair or the P-38 though.

I like the P-51 -- such an awesome Plane :D

Do you actually read previous posts Cdo ?

[Cuts]

We are just voicing our oppinions, I'm not going to ask for the people who post here to give armorments, date put into service, max altitude, max speed and all that other stuff.

OK, why do you have these 'oppinions' [sic] ?
What reasoning has led you to hold these views ?



Edited to correct quote.

[PzKpfw VI Tiger]

Ok why are you guys ganging up on me? I don't appreciate it at all.

[Cuts]

There is no 'ganging up,' merely pointing out that unjustified opinions are like haemorroids, every arsehole can have them but they are pointless and no-one in their right mind wants to see them.

[Crab_to_be]

It's not meant to be ganging up. It's just that saying 'I like the P-51' is a useless post, whereaser 'I like the P-51 because...' is a useful post. A selection in a poll is a good way to express an opinion without justifying it. If you post an opinion, explanation of how you reached it is vital for discussion to develop.

[Cuts]

:!: TOPIC CLOSED, SORRY GUYS, BUT YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO GAIN RANK BY POSTING INFORMATION OF VALUE AND NOT BY SOME THREAD THAT YOU CAN JUST POST RANDOM CRAP IN

http://www.ww2incolor.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=20135#20135

[PzKpfw VI Tiger]

:!: TOPIC CLOSED, SORRY GUYS, BUT YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO GAIN RANK BY POSTING INFORMATION OF VALUE AND NOT BY SOME THREAD THAT YOU CAN JUST POST RANDOM CRAP IN

http://www.ww2incolor.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=20135#20135

Your point, Crab? My actions were justified. Now back on topic :!:

[Cuts]

:!: TOPIC CLOSED, SORRY GUYS, BUT YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO GAIN RANK BY POSTING INFORMATION OF VALUE AND NOT BY SOME THREAD THAT YOU CAN JUST POST RANDOM CRAP IN

http://www.ww2incolor.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=20135#20135

Your point, Crab? My actions were justified. Now back on topic :!:

It's Cuts, not Crab.
My point being, (had you read your post,) that "YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO GAIN RANK BY POSTING INFORMATION OF VALUE."

Not items like 'The P-51 was cool/awsome/great/the best.' What possible value does a post such as that have ?

[PzKpfw VI Tiger]

Sorry for the mess up, Cuts, :oops: but anyway you have a point, I suppose.

[WW2 Genius]

yeah im sorry too cuts. My favourite plane is the BX927.333 Version 7.4/21. What were you talking about?

[ww2fanatic1944]

P-51...couldnt have won the air war without it

[festamus]

ww2fanatic1944 - feel free to pop along to the General Discussion forum for the "Best fighter of WW2" thread! The more votes the better. Be sure to read the thread first - basically it's a structured "tournament" to arrive at the best WWII fighter, and you must cast your vote with a justified reason why. Might interest you.

[ww2fanatic1944]

thx festamus i'll check it out

[CrossBones]

Salute!!

My favorites:

B 26 Marauder

P 47 ThunderBolt

[2nd of foot]

I came across this and thought it was the best place for it without opening a new thread. Some very nice pictures of bombing and the damage.

http://www.100thbg.com/mainmenus/missions/missions_main.htm

[Twitch1]

B-17 & P-51

[PLT.SGT.BAKER]

Probely the famous B-17F Memphis Belle and P-51 mustang.

[Cash]

Boeing B17 G Flying Fortress.

http://www.angelfire.com/fm/odyssey/B17g.JPG

[jrw1268]

Wasn't the Mosquito a British plane???

[PLT.SGT.BAKER]

look it up on google unless yur a WWII expert :)

[PzKpfw VI Tiger]

Wasn't the Mosquito a British plane???

Yes, the Mosquito was a British Plane, however it also saw action in the RCAF, USAAF, and the Israeli Air Force.

[HG]

OK, it is obvious that you love the P-51 and I think personely that it is not as great as it is being showed to be. The US did build better fighters (or should I say in the case of the P-51 a escort for bombers over Europe) than the P-51. The P-51 did have great looks and did have great performance, but did not have good guns. Please, face it the P-51 are just not so good as it is being said it is, there are better.

Henk

[Firefly]

The P-51 had 8 Browning 50 cal.

The P-51 could fly to Berlin and dog fight with the best Germany could put into the air. On the way home the P-51 had enough fuel to attack ground targets, trains planes, horses, anything that moved.

How can anyone deny that the P-51 was the Allied plane of the war?

[HG]

I can. Yes the P-51 could do all that but can you deny that there were better US fighters during WW2. The P-40 was better fighter not a escort like the P-51 over Europe. The P-51 got to Europe when the Luftwaffe were allready sick of fighting the war and thus knew that they was going to lose the war and thus did not make a big impact.

But, thank you for your opinion Firefly, I do respect it.

Henk

[Firefly]

You prove to me that the P-40 was a better fighter then?

Why do you think the Luftwaffe was defeated?


Because Im not sure you are right....

[HG]

Well firstly. The Luftwaffe fighter pilots only got a lot of bad feedback from Goring when something went wrong. The fighter pilots took that personely and thus hated Goering and said he is a asshole. When the Battle of Brittan went south Goering said it was the fighter pilots foult and they thus lost a part of their fighting spirrit and thus just fouht for survival and not for the glory of Germany. If the fighter pilots only got some appreciation they would have fought more aggresive against the The US and RAF. The fighter pilots got the wrong missions to fight in the Battle of Brittan and thus could not do what they are supposed to do, like doing fighter bombing missions and not escort missions or air combat missions like they were upposed to do. A normal Me-109 just had the amount of feul to do a hour of combat over Brittan and must thus return home, but with extra bombs they only had 30 min to combat and must thus return to base. The Luftwaffe thus did not fight back as it should have after the battle of Brittan because their spirit to fight was lost and just did what they had to do and not what they can do.

The P-40 were slower but did have better handeling and was reliable aircraft and it did have less guns but it did have a bigger combat record than that of the P-51 and the flying tigers preverd the P-40 because it was a great aircraft and would not let them down. The P-40 fought in the east mostly and thus was verry sucsefull in their role as a fighter. Remember that the P-51 had to carry drop tanks to make it to Berlin and back and the fighters did not allways follow the bombers home they mostly onley escorted to the target and then went to their base. Actualy the F-4 fighter shot down the most aircrat during WW2 in the East against the Japan.

Go and ask experts on US fithers and they will tell you that the P-40 were actualy better than the P-51.

We can not all agree on the same things, thats what makes us all special.

Henk

[George Eller]

-

Quoted from:

THE REPUBLIC P-47 THUNDERBOLT
http://www.chuckhawks.com/p47.htm

By Chuck Hawks and Rip Collins

My article "The Best Fighter Planes of World War II" has attracted more than its share of e-mail from readers. A significant part of that mail has suggested that I should have included the P-47 Thunderbolt instead of, or in addition to, the P-51 Mustang. One of those correspondents was Rip Collins, a WW II fighter pilot who flew both the Mustang and the Thunderbolt, and made a strong case for the latter. Rip and I corresponded back and forth, and the result is this article.
I (Chuck Hawks) volunteered to write the introduction, a brief history of the most significant P-47 variants, and research the basic specifications. Rip will provide the insight only a pilot who actually flew this great fighter in combat can provide, as well as explain why he feels the "Jug" (short for "Juggernaut," which is what many pilots called the P-47) was the best American fighter plane of WW II.

The specifications quoted throughout this article for the various P-47 models are taken from two books. One is The Fighter Aircraft Pocketbook by Roy Cross, and the other is The Complete Book of Fighters by William Green and Gordon Swanborough. Both are listed in the Bibliography on my Naval & Military History Page. Please note that specifications from different sources are rarely identical, so cut me a little slack if your favorite reference quotes different numbers.

The Republic Aviation Corporation (previously Seversky Aircraft Corp.) had successfully designed and built the P-35 fighter for the U.S. Army Air Corps in 1937 and the EP-1 for the Swedish Air Force (known as the P-35A in the USAAC) in 1939. Chief engineer Alexander Kartveli followed these successes with the P-43 Lancer of 1940, which incorporated a turbo supercharger for its 1200 hp Pratt & Whitney radial engine, and the similar P-44, with a 1400 hp radial engine. The latter was overtaken by the advent of an entirely new fighter which became the P-47, and was never produced, but about 272 P-43's were built between September 1940 and April 1942. Fifty-one of these P-43's were supplied to China under the Lend-Lease program.

Although the P-43A was a high performance airplane for its day, with a top speed of 356 mph at 20,000 feet, it was to be overshadowed by Alexander Kartveli's subsequent classic, the great P-47 Thunderbolt. The P-47 became one of the premier fighters of its day.

The first "P-47" models were the XP-47 (AP-4) and the XP-47A (AP-10) of 1940. These were lightweight fighter projects contracted by the USAAC, bearing no real resemblance to the later Thunderbolt. Both were canceled after studying combat reports from Europe, where the war had already begun. Instead, a new heavy fighter was designed; this was designated the XP-47B.

The XP-47B was designed around the 2,000 hp Pratt & Whitney R-2800 Double Wasp 18-cylinder radial with a very large turbo supercharger and a big three-bladed propeller. The armament was eight .50 caliber machine guns, four in each wing. The new fighter flew for the first time in May 1941. Because of its large radial engine, and the turbo supercharger and its ducting, the P-47 was one of the largest single engine fighters built during WW II.

The U.S. government ordered 171 P-47B's, and 602 improved P-47C's. The first P-47B was completed in March 1942, and entered combat in April 1943 with the 78th Fighter Group of the 8th Air Force. From that time on, the Thunderbolt began to change the history of the war in the air in favor of the Americans.

Robert S. Johnson and Martin Caidin collaborated on Johnson's memoirs, which dealt intimately with the P-47. Their book is aptly titled Thunderbolt, and tells the story of the famous 56th Fighter Group. Johnson was one of the top U.S. aces of the war, with 28 victories, all flying the P-47. He was sent to Europe to fly and fight in January 1943, and returned home in the middle of 1944 as the leading American ace. The 56th Fighter Group, which included legendary aces like Johnson, Zemke, and Gabreski, shot down 1006 German aircraft against the loss of only 128 P-47's, a kill ratio of 8 to 1 against the stiffest competition in the world.

The P-47B and C models were fine high altitude fighters. The P-47B had a top speed of 406 mph at 27,000 ft., an excellent rate of roll, and could dive like a stone. The Thunderbolt had great survivability; it could absorb a lot of punishment and still get home. The best climb rate was unimpressive, however, at only 1,650 ft./min at SL

By early 1943 the P-47D was coming off the production lines. The P-47D was produced in higher quantity than any other model, and in many variations. Early "D" models were similar to the previous "C" model, with only detail improvements, but as production progressed the "D" model continued to be improved. Republic built a total of 12,602 P-47D's. In addition, Curtis-Wright built 354 P-47D's under license as the P-47G.

P47D-6-RE to P-47D-11-RE models came with an under fuselage shackle for a 500 lb. bomb or a drop tank. Subsequent models, up to the P-47D-20-RE, had strengthened wings with under wing pylons and were able to carry a 1,000-pound bomb under each wing.

The "universal wing," which could carry a variety of stores, was introduced with the P-47D-20-RE. A large four-bladed "paddle" propeller was also fitted. This, along with the water-injection R-2800-21 engine, which had a war emergency rating of 2,300 hp, markedly improved the maximum rate of climb, which was now up to 2,750 ft./min. at 5,000 ft.

The P-47D-25-RE and subsequent models had a cut down rear fuselage and a teardrop canopy, adapted from the British Typhoon fighter. Internal fuel capacity was also increased. The R-2800-59 engine had a war emergency rating of 2,535 hp. Climb rate was now up to 3,120 ft./min., and top speed was 426 mph at 30,000 ft. The Thunderbolt had basically reached full flower.

The next variant to achieve series production was the P-47M. This was called the "sprint" model, and it was a response to the jet powered German V-1 "Buzz Bomb" cruise missile, and the German jet fighters. It had an up-rated R-2800-57(C) engine and CH-5 turbocharger system, which gave a top speed of 470 mph at 30,000 ft. Initial climb was 3,500 ft./min. Delivered beginning in December 1944, 130 were produced.

The last P-47 variant to achieve series production was the P-47N. This model was designed specifically for the pacific theatre, where very long range was a requirement. The "N" used the same engine as the "M"; late production models received the P-2800-77 engine. A new, stronger, wing with squared tips was designed, which incorporated eight internal fuel cells. The landing gear was strengthened to deal with the increased weight of the aircraft. From the P-47N-5-RE model on, zero length rocket launchers were added beneath the wings.

Habitability improvements included an automatic pilot, an armchair seat, and folding rudder pedals to give the pilot increased leg room. These improvements were intended to increase the pilot's comfort on long escort missions.

Maximum speed was 467 mph at 32,500 ft. Initial climb was 2,770 ft./min., and the range on maximum internal fuel was 2,350 miles. The P-47N saw extensive use in the last months of the Pacific War, and had the range to escort the B-29's all the way from Saipan to Japan. Between December 1944 and December 1945 a total of 1,816 P-47N's were manufactured.

A total of 15,677 P-47 Thunderbolts of all types were built before production ceased at the end of 1945. More Thunderbolts were produced than any other USAAF fighter. (The P-51 was second with 15,386 produced; the P-40 was third with an even 15,000 produced; the P-38 was fourth with 10,037 produced.) In addition to the USAAF, during WW II P-47's were sold or supplied to Brazil, Free France, Mexico, the UK, and the USSR. After the war, surplus P-47's were operated by the Air Forces of Bolivia, Chile, China, Columbia, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Honduras, Iran, Italy, Nicaragua, Peru, Portugal, Turkey, Venezuela, and Yugoslavia.

Specifications for the P-47D-35-RA, taken from The Complete Book of Fighters, are as follows.

Max speed, 426 mph at 30,000 ft.

Max initial climb, 3,120 ft./min.

Range (with max internal fuel), 1,800 miles at 195 mph at 10,000 ft.

Armament, eight-.50 caliber machine guns, plus up to 1,500 lb. of bombs.

Empty weight, 10,000 lb.

Max loaded weight, 17,500 lb.

Wingspan, 40 ft. 9.75 in.

Length, 36 ft. 1.75 in.

Height, 14 ft. 1.75 in.

Wing area, 300-sq. ft.

It will never be possible to definitively settle the debate as to which of the top three USAAF fighters was the best. For one thing, it depends on what you mean by "best." The Lockheed P-38, Republic P-47, and North American P-51 were all very good fighters. All three were versatile, had good range, and were deadly in air to air combat. The P-47 and P-38, in particular, had good survivability compared to most Axis fighters. The P-47 had a reputation for extreme ruggedness, and the P-38 offered twin engine reliability for long flights. My father, an aeronautical engineer in the USAAF during the war, once told me that the United States had produced three great land-based fighters in WW II, any one of which was capable of winning the air war. He was referring to the P-38, the P-47, and the P-51.

Top scoring American aces flew all three aircraft. And pilots who were faithfully served by one or the other of these fine aircraft tend to regard their particular plane as the best, as is natural.

Now read Rip Collins' words. Rip (back then Lieutenant Collins) was a WW II fighter pilot from the class of 44-C, Aloe Field, Victoria, Texas. Rip was assigned to the 40th Fighter Squadron, a Squadron in the 35th Fighter Group, Fifth Air Force, FEAF (Far Easr Air Forces) in the Pacific. (There is a link to the 40th at the end of this article.)

Rip flew both the P-47 and P-51 in combat in the Pacific. He is a big fan of the P-47, and took me to task for choosing the P-51 over the P-47 in my article "Best Fighter Planes of WW II." In that he is not alone, but he was the only correspondent who actually flew both in combat, so his words carry a lot of weight. At one point he wrote to me that he could give me a dozen reasons why the P-47 was superior to the P-51. Naturally, I asked him to do just that. After reading his reasons, I asked him if I could use his material (with credit) in an article about the P-47, and he kindly consented. From now on you are reading Rip's words.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


For sure, fighter pilots are a different cut of guys. I guess we got spoiled because we were considered the "cream of the crop." In most cases, not all, but most, if you were going into the USAAC, USAAF, USAF, or whatever name it was called at the time, the majority of us young bucks wanted fighters (1055) and not multiengine (bombers, transports, surveillance, rescue, etc.). I've seen the disappointment at "wash out" time, when the primary and basic flight instruction group was split up prior to advanced training. The men that couldn't cut it went on to multiengine advanced training bases, while the "cream" went on to single engine bases to fly the AT-6 Texan (advanced fighter trainer).

It is not unusual to favor your own aircraft. In fact, it is a bit common. We probably all look at this in a different way, and in a different light. And if you didn't get to fly both the Jug and the Mustang, you were at a decided disadvantage. Here are my dozen reasons why the T-bolt was the superior fighter of the two.

1. The Republic Thunderbolt had a radial engine that could take hits and keep on running. I know of an actual case where a Jug brought a pilot back from Borneo after 8 hours in the air. The pilot landed with the master cylinder and three other cylinders blown out of commission. But the Jug kept chugging along, running well enough to bring its pilot back safely to his base at Morotai. I was there.

2. The Jug's radial engine was air cooled, instead of liquid cooled with a radiator system, like the Mustang's V-12. This is significant because one small caliber hit on an aluminum cooling line in a Mustang would let the coolant leak out, and when the coolant was gone, the engine seized, and the show was over.

I took a small caliber hit in a coolant tube over Formosa (Taiwan). When I landed back at base, my crew chief said, "Lieutenant, did you know you got hit?" I replied, "No." He continued, "You took a small caliber shell in the coolant tube on the right side of the engine. I'd give you between 10 and 15 minutes flying time remaining." I had just flown from Formosa, over nothing but the Pacific Ocean, to our fighter strip on Okinawa.

3. The P-47 could fly higher than the P-51. With its huge turbocharger, it could climb to over 40,000 feet. You could just look down at your enemy in a stall and smile.

4. The Jug could out dive the Mustang. As a matter of fact, it could out dive any enemy fighter, and at 7.5 tons loaded, it dove fast! I have personally been in a dive at what we called the "state of compressibility," at nearly 700 mph indicated air speed. I was scared to death, but with a tiny bit of throttle, I pulled it out at about 2,000-foot altitude, literally screaming through the sky.

5. The Thunderbolt had eight .50's. The Mustang had six. That's 33 1/3% more firepower. This made a major difference.

6. The later model Thunderbolt's could carry and deliver 2,500 pounds of bombs. (One 1,000-lb. bomb on each wing, and one 500 lb. bomb under the belly.) This was a maximum load and you had to use water injection to get airborne. But it would do this with sufficient runway. I have done this myself.

In addition to being a first class fighter, it was also a superb fighter-bomber and ground level strafer. Jugs practically wiped out the German and Italian railroads. I have strafed Japanese trains, troops, ships, gunboats, warships, airfields, ammo dumps, hangers, antiaircraft installations, you name it. I felt secure in my P-47.

7. The P-47 was larger and much stronger, in case of a crash landing. The Jug was built like a machined tool. Mustangs had a lot of sheet metal stamped out parts, and were more lightweight in construction. One example was the throttle arm. You can see the difference. What does all this mean? The safety of the fighter pilot.

8. The Thunderbolt had no "scoop" under the bottom. You can imagine what happens during a crash landing if your wheels would not come down (due to damage or mechanical trouble). On landing, it could make the P-51 nose over in the dirt as the scoop drags into the earth. In water (and I flew over the Pacific Ocean most of my 92 combat missions), it could cause trouble in a crash landing because the air scoop would be the first part of the aircraft to hit the water. Instead of a smooth belly landing, anything might happen.

9. The Thunderbolt had a much larger, roomier cockpit. You were comfortable in the big Jug cockpit. In my Mustang, my shoulders almost scraped the sides on the right and left. I was cramped in with all my "gear." I could not move around like I could in the P-47. I found the ability to move a little bit very desirable, especially on seven and eight hour missions.

10. The Mustang went from 1,150-horse power Allison engines to the Packard built Rolls-Royce Merlin engine that had 1,590 hp. The Thunderbolt started out with a 2,000 hp Pratt & Whitney engine, and ended up with 2,800 war emergency hp with water injection. That's close to twice the power.

11. The Jug had a very wide landing gear. This made it easy to land just about anywhere, with no tendency to ground loop. Many times we had to land on rice paddies and irregular ground. When you set the Thunderbolt down, it was down. In the Far East, England, Africa, and Italy, this helped you get down and walk away from it. To me, that was very important for the safety of the pilot.

12. The Jug's record against all opposing aircraft is remarkable. The ratio of kills to losses was unmistakably a winner. Thunderbolt pilots destroyed a total of 11,874 enemy aircraft, over 9,000 trains, and 160,000 vehicles.

But, the big factor, above all else, it saved pilots in great numbers. Ask most fighter pilots who flew both in active combat and they will tell you that, given a choice to fly either one in combat, it would be the Juggernaut hands down.

Now one last thing: the P-51 Mustang was a superb fighter. I am fully aware of that! But, considering that I flew about every kind of mission the Pentagon could dream up, and a few they didn't know about, I will rate that 8 tons of destruction first as long as I live, and no one can change my mind. I was there. Simply walk up to one of them and see for yourself.

The dictionary defines "juggernaut" as: "any large, overpowering, destructive force or object." That was the P-47 of World War II.

-

[Nickdfresh]

...The P-40 was better fighter not a escort like the P-51 over Europe...
Henk

Sheer lunacy! The P-40 was underpowered at high altitude. Made in the city I live, Buffalo, NY, the P-40 Tomahawks were very good pre-war fighters, but they were largely obsolete as a frontline fighter by 1939. The Japanese Zero and Me109 were both more maneuverable. The Flying Tigers had to be taught not to dogfight with the Japanese, but to take advantage of Japanese pilots trademark over aggressiveness and the superior diving ability of the P-40, and to also force the Japanese to fight at low level, where their maneuverability was lessened.

The P-40 was still useful, and could fend for itself in the hands of a capable pilot that knew it's limitations, and I believe the RAF found them very useful as light strike aircraft in the desert, but there is no way in hell that any piston engined fighter could touch the P-51D with the Rolls Royce Merlin engine. Lacking in armament, perhaps, but a bigger cannon (which I agree, US fighters should have mounted with a few less .50 cal. machine guns in favor of a 20-30mm cannon on one wing) may have weighed her down and prevented it's operational range.
http://p-38online.com/images/p38-03.jpg
So, is the P-51 my favorite US fighter, well, I'm kind of partial to the P-38 ("forked-tailed devil") Lightening. Incredibly fast for her time, and very maneuverable, the only real draw back to this design was the expense (two engines costs a lot more) and the fuel consumption, and it had difficulty at higher altitudes and needed very high quality aviation fuel for the finicky engines. Some of this was somewhat remedied by Charles "Lucky Lindy" Lindbergh when he somehow modified the fuel system in the Pacific theater. So the fighter found a new lease on life in the Pacific even as it was largely withdrawn from Europe because of range, and the pilots that were difficult to keep warm (since it was hard to heat a cockpit with twin boon engines)

More info: http://p-38online.com/index.html

My favorite bomber would be the B-17G, a workhorse.

Also the P-47 should get honorable mention, since it was invaluable as a ground attack aircraft, if not so much as a fighter.

[Nickdfresh]

...Actualy the F-4 fighter shot down the most aircrat during WW2 in the East against the Japan.

Go and ask experts on US fithers and they will tell you that the P-40 were actualy better than the P-51.

We can not all agree on the same things, thats what makes us all special.

Henk

The "F-4", there were no Phantoms ready for WWII unfortunately.:D I think you mean the P-40, and actually the P-38 Lightening shot down the most Japanese aircraft, and P-40s were largely withdrawn by the end of 1942, and the Flying Tigers flew them because that's all they had, unless you consider the P-39 Air-cobra a choice, which I doubt...

[Twitch1]

"The P-51 had 8 Browning 50 cal."

Maybe in the Klingon galaxy but not here.
8)

[George Eller]

...Actualy the F-4 fighter shot down the most aircrat during WW2 in the East against the Japan.

Go and ask experts on US fithers and they will tell you that the P-40 were actualy better than the P-51.

We can not all agree on the same things, thats what makes us all special.

Henk

The "F-4", there were no Phantoms ready for WWII unfortunately.:D I think you mean the P-40, and actually the P-38 Lightening shot down the most Japanese aircraft, and P-40s were largely withdrawn by the end of 1942, and the Flying Tigers flew them because that's all they had, unless you consider the P-39 Air-cobra a choice, which I doubt...
-
Nickdfresh,

Actually, I think that the "F-4" that Henk was referring to was the "Wildcat" as in F4F "Wildcat". Although I am not sure that the F4F shot down the most aircraft. The later Grumman F6F "Hellcat" destroyed 4,947 enemy aircraft in air-to-air combat. (figures from "American Aircraft of World War II", by David Mondey, Chancellor Press, 1999, p144)

George
-

[Nickdfresh]

-
Nickdfresh,

Actually, I think that the "F-4" that Henk was referring to was the "Wildcat" as in F4F "Wildcat". Although I am not sure that the F4F shot down the most aircraft. The later Grumman F6F "Hellcat" destroyed 4,947 enemy aircraft in air-to-air combat. (figures from "American Aircraft of World War II", by David Mondey, Chancellor Press, 1999, p144)

George
-

I see. I think the reconnaissance version of the P-38 Lightening was also designated the F-4 & F-5 respectively. I stand corrected. But the P-38 shot down the most Japanese aircraft of any USAAF aircraft, I don't know if any single US Navy aircraft shot down more...

[Twitch1]

I reckon Henk was meantthe P-47 not the P-40. And Geroge covered the history of that pretty danged well. The P-47 pilots always thought the Jug was better than the Mustang and a controversay like that has no end. :)

Did the Flying Tigers ever use the P-47? I cant find any information that says they do. Then again maybe Henk does actually believe that the P-40 was better?

[George Eller]

I reckon Henk was meantthe P-47 not the P-40. And Geroge covered the history of that pretty danged well. The P-47 pilots always thought the Jug was better than the Mustang and a controversay like that has no end. :)
-
Well Twitch, it wasn't exactly me :wink: - just quoted Chuck Hawks and Rip Collins. Although I have been a long time fan of the P-47 Thunderbolt.

I remember an article that the wargame company Avalon-Hill did many years ago in their magazine "The General" which dealt with the topic of the best fighter of WWII. They analyzed each of the major fighter planes of the war in a list of characteristics (such as roll) and rated each characteristic on a scale of one to ten. At the end of the article, they added up the scores of the various characteristics of each plane for a total score for each. What I do remember was that the P-47 came out with the highest overall score and thus was ranked as the best overall fighter of WWII. Regretfully, I can't remember in which issue of "The General" that the artical was published. :D
-

[american sniper]

P-51 Mustang

and the B-50 bomber

[George Eller]

-
Not my favorite, just thought it was interesting.

From: "American Aircraft of World War II, David Mondey, Chancellor Press, 1996, pp 188-189.

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/6539/phantom17yg.jpg
-

[jrw1268]

Was the B-50 a WWII bomber :?:

[pdf27]

Was the B-50 a WWII bomber :?:
Technically no - it's a B-29 with bigger engines and a few tweaks that came in very shortly postwar.

[Feldwebel]

Well my favorite is the P-51 it was an execelent fighter and bomber it easly crippled the germans over time :D

[jnd2089]

The P-47 were one of the best... The B-17 was the best bomber in Europe :lol:

[CDN3RD_Canadian]

Hellcat

[Eagle]

Talking about US fighter or bombers, I have no doubts...

the fighter, the P-51 Mustang, a really revolutionary aircraft, with the ejectable fuel tanks, its action range, ammunition and of course its high capability of maneuvering.

the bomber, the B-29 Super Fortress, a really flying monster, and the number of bombs that it could carry was unbelievable for that time. Of course the B-17 was absolutely important in the European theatre, but we are talking about the BEST bomber, aren't we? I say it again, the best was the Super Fortress.

I think they were the aircraft that made the difference between their "partners" (P-40, P-47, P-38, B-17, B-25)



http://www.bigtopfleamarket.com/VendorImages/Roys.1/P-51-Mustang.gif
The Mustang...

http://home.cfl.rr.com/featherweight/images/b29x.jpg
The Super Fortress...

[DerMann]

Mine is the P-47D-25 Thunderbolt. It is a fighter-bomber after all :P

While I was at an airshow in Ohio, we stopped by a flight museum (wasn't open and didn't have time to visit it on that trip), and they had literally scores of monuments dedicated to different aircraft throughout time (mostly military aircraft). The one I remember the most of was the one for the P-47. It said that the P-47 had amassed the most aireal, ground, etc... kills in WWII. Can anyone confirm this?

[George Eller]

Mine is the P-47D-25 Thunderbolt. It is a fighter-bomber after all :P

While I was at an airshow in Ohio, we stopped by a flight museum (wasn't open and didn't have time to visit it on that trip), and they had literally scores of monuments dedicated to different aircraft throughout time (mostly military aircraft). The one I remember the most of was the one for the P-47. It said that the P-47 had amassed the most aireal, ground, etc... kills in WWII. Can anyone confirm this?

-

Ditto here DerMann - the P-47 has always been my favorite too.

Don't know off hand about the kills, but will check.

I remember an article that the wargame company Avalon-Hill did many years ago in their magazine "The General" which dealt with the topic of the best fighter of WWII. They analyzed each of the major fighter planes of the war in a list of characteristics (such as roll) and rated each characteristic on a scale of one to ten. At the end of the article, they added up the scores from the various characteristics of each plane for a total overall score for each. What I do remember was that the P-47 came out with the highest overall score and thus was ranked as the best overall fighter of WWII. Regretfully, I can't remember in which issue of "The General" that the article was published.

-

[Eagle]

Well, if we are talking about a fighter/bomber in the same machine, I would prefer the P-51... so I keep my thoughts, and the Mustang will always be the best! :D


Greetings.

[George Eller]

Well, if we are talking about a fighter/bomber in the same machine, I would prefer the P-51... so I keep my thoughts, and the Mustang will always be the best! :D


Greetings.
-

The P-51 was a great plane too :wink:

-

[George Eller]

Mine is the P-47D-25 Thunderbolt. It is a fighter-bomber after all :P

While I was at an airshow in Ohio, we stopped by a flight museum (wasn't open and didn't have time to visit it on that trip), and they had literally scores of monuments dedicated to different aircraft throughout time (mostly military aircraft). The one I remember the most of was the one for the P-47. It said that the P-47 had amassed the most aireal, ground, etc... kills in WWII. Can anyone confirm this?

-

Ditto here DerMann - the P-47 has always been my favorite too.

Don't know off hand about the kills, but will check.

I remember an article that the wargame company Avalon-Hill did many years ago in their magazine "The General" which dealt with the topic of the best fighter of WWII. They analyzed each of the major fighter planes of the war in a list of characteristics (such as roll) and rated each characteristic on a scale of one to ten. At the end of the article, they added up the scores from the various characteristics of each plane for a total overall score for each. What I do remember was that the P-47 came out with the highest overall score and thus was ranked as the best overall fighter of WWII. Regretfully, I can't remember in which issue of "The General" that the article was published.

-
-

Might be awhile before I get back on this one. My hard drive crapped out on me last night as I was scanning information and images of P-47. I am posting this from work.

Catch you later

-

[Panzerknacker]

A weird camo layout in a early Mustang P-51a, italy 1943.


http://www.cbrnp.com/profiles/quarter2/northamerican_p51/mustang-1_dazzle.jpg



http://f5.putfile.com/5/12821335395.jpg

[Eagle]

Well, if we are talking about a fighter/bomber in the same machine, I would prefer the P-51... so I keep my thoughts, and the Mustang will always be the best! :D


Greetings.
-

The P-51 was a great plane too :wink:

-


I'm sure it was!

[Timbo in Oz]

and anything with a liquid cooled engine comes out a bit behind a radial engined aircraft.

So, for me the best American fighter-bomber in the European theatre of WWII has to be the P47 Thunderbolt.

In the Pacific? Even stevens 'tween the Corsair and the Hellcat.

The one for its speed and stability in a dive, hence its continuing use in the FB role right up until Korea.

And the other given its sheer numbers in the USN - in partly replacing pure dive bombers (such as the Curtiss SB2C of the wobbly dive) - and its extra-ordinary acceleration at fighter bomber heights.

Timbo

[Digger]

G'day,

As for the best fighter I lean towards the P-47, primarily in the belief pilot survival is most important and many a Jug pilot will pay that tribute. Tales of these beasts coming home full of holes are not uncommon.

For looks, I've always had a soft spot for the P-38. It just looked like a warplane to me I guess.

As for one comment, that Jagdwaffe fighter pilots did not fight hard, ask anyone who flew missions over Germany and see what they say. With what little they had left in the end, the German fighter pilots kept fighting. You only have to read about JV-44 missions when they were finally equipped with the R4M rockets to realize the fallacy of that comment.

As for the bombers, I'll go for the B-26 Marauder as my medium bomber choice. Fast and tough, once they knocked all the rough edges off this plane it was amazingly successful.

For heavy bombers, the B-17G, hands down. It looked like a warbird and it's record speaks for itself. Some people deride the efforts of those who flew during the war and I tell you what, you try and sit in the cockpit of one of these things and imagine coming up against an Fw-190 Sturmbock and see how you feel.

Everyone of those guys who flew in them should have been given the highest award.

Regards to all,
Digger.

[George Eller]

-

01 B-29 aircraft art by Philip Alexander
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/00.00Cover.htm

B-29s Sunset
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/PAShowScans/S01Air/B29sSunsetA.jpg
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/01Air/01Air.htm

B-29 Bombs
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/PAShowScans/S01Air/B29Bombs2.jpg
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/01Air/04Air.htm

B-29 Clouds 1
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/PAShowScans/S01Air/B29Clouds.jpg
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/01Air/15Air.htm

B-29 Clouds 2
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/PAShowScans/S01Air/B29Clouds3.jpg
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/01Air/24Air.htm

-

[George Eller]

-

02 B-29 aircraft art by Philip Alexander
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/00.00Cover.htm

B-29 Squadron 1
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/PAShowScans/S01Air/B29Squadron3A.jpg
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/01Air/27Air.htm

B-29 Bombs
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/PAShowScans/S01Air/B29sBombsA.jpg
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/01Air/33Air.htm

B-29s, Clouds
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/PAShowScans/S01Air/B29sClouds.jpg
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/01Air/33Air.htm

B-29 Squadron 2
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/PAShowScans/S01Air/B29Sqdn4A.jpg
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/01Air/33Air.htm

-

[George Eller]

-

03 B-29 aircraft art by Philip Alexander
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/00.00Cover.htm

B-29 Squadron 3
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/PAShowScans/S01Air/B29Squadron5A.jpg
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/01Air/34Air.htm

Fifi
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/PAShowScans/SO11Air/Fifi.jpg
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/01Air/53Air.htm

B-29 High
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/PAShowScans/LateAdditions/B29High.jpg
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/01Air/67Air.htm

Lens Flare B-29s
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/PAShowScans/LateAdditions/LensFlareB-29s.gif
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/01Air/71Air.htm

-

[George Eller]

-

04 B-29 aircraft art by Philip Alexander
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/00.00Cover.htm

Direct Hit on “Chicago Lady”
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/PAShowScans/LateAdditions5/ChicagoLady.gif
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/01Air/106Air.htm

Superfortress
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/PAShowScans/LateAdditions6/Superfortress.gif
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/01Air/119Air.htm

Superfort Closeup
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/PAShowScans/LateAdditions6/Pilot.gif
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/01Air/119Air.htm

Bomb Run
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/PAShowScans/LateAdditions6/BombRun.gif
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/01Air/119Air.htm

-

[George Eller]

-

05 B-29 aircraft art by Philip Alexander
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/00.00Cover.htm

Mama's Boy, On a Mission — 2
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/PAShowScans/LateAdditions9/MamasBoy3.gif
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/01Air/157Air.htm

Mama's Boy, Up Close & Personal — 2
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/PAShowScans/LateAdditions9/MamasBoy3Close.gif
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/01Air/157Air.htm

B-29 Final Approach
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/PAShowScans/LateAdditions9/B29Landing.gif
http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/04.PAAvtnArt/01Air/162Air.htm

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[Panzerknacker]

Nice art, some pics of the sturdy P-47.


http://home.att.net/~Historyzone/P-47elevatorgone.JPG



http://home.att.net/~Historyzone/Johnson2.JPG

[VonWeyer]

B-17 fore sure!

[George Eller]

-

Thanks for the P-47 pics Panzerknacker.

Here are some images and info on my favorite version of the Thunderbolt - the P-47N.


http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/4269/p47n01hz0.jpg
From: Republic P-47 Thunderbolt, by The Aeronautical Staff of Aero Publishers, Inc. in cooperation with Edward T. Maloney, curator of The Air Museum, Aero Publishers, Inc., 1966

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/5535/p47n02yh5.jpg
From: Republic P-47 Thunderbolt, by The Aeronautical Staff of Aero Publishers, Inc. in cooperation with Edward T. Maloney, curator of The Air Museum, Aero Publishers, Inc., 1966

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/9783/p47n03wx8.jpg
http://richard.ferriere.free.fr/3vues/p47n_3v.jpg

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/518/p47n04dk4.jpg
From: American Aircraft of World War II, by David Mondey, Chancellor Press, 1996, p 222.

-

[Panzerknacker]

Fearsome aircraft , a single pass with their 8x 0.50 cal and the japanese aircrafts was no more.

[Old Cremona]

My favorite American warbird is Grumman's tubby little F4F Wildcat.

Not a pretty or particularly fast plane, but it was all we had in 1942 and it held the line against Japan's A team.

'Course, it was probably the pilots that made the difference.

[Panzerknacker]

Wildcat..? hmmm not the best performer.

http://www.air-and-space.com/20040516%20Chino/Dsc_0624%20FM-2%20N29FG%20left%20front%20taxiing%20l.jpg

[George Eller]

-

P-47 color video clips from WWII (including gun camera footage).

WWII film of the 337th Squadron based in Etaine, France, flying P-47 Thunderbolts (with narration and sound):
P47 Thunderbolts in Action_France 1945 - All Color Footage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-fk9qdOUG4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shsxuauQA3w

American Pilots in Action at Second World War,Based in Etaine,France.On March 16th 1945, the 362nd fighter Group dispatched a total of 175 P47 Thunderbolts fighters against enemy transportation, associated facilities and ground artillery.

P47 in Action_France 1945 (same as above in B&W)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXNRQBdCOSg

American Pilots in Action at Second World War,Based in Etaine,France.On March 16th 1945, the 362nd fighter Group dispatched a total of 175 P47 Thunderbolts fighters against enemy transportation, associated facilities and ground artillery.

-

1944-45 "THUNDERBOLT" Uncensored Complete Version (1 of 5)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idLl3v7rmAU

1944-45 "THUNDERBOLT" Uncensored Complete Version (2 of 5)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drE0D_Z1zOs

1944-45 "THUNDERBOLT" Uncensored Complete Version (3 of 5)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGKaKHyL7YM

1944-45 "THUNDERBOLT" Uncensored Complete Version (4 of 5)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqgP26cyorQ

1944-45 "THUNDERBOLT" Uncensored Complete Version (5 of 5)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TRV15kcac0

"Thunderbolt" (1947)
Director: William Wyler, John Sturges
Production Company: Carl Krueger Production
Introduced by James Stewart

Filmed in 1944 and early 1945 but edited only in 1947, this 45 minutes well preserved and almost forgotten documentary (by the great William Wyler) is about the P-47 Thunderbolt fighter bomber and its use in missions over Italy. In the prologue outstanding shots showing various placements of 1944 late model automatic color movie-cameras on board of the planes.

-

P47-350o. 1st Brazilian Fighter Squadron - In Combat WWII
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWp-PhZaMkQ

FEB Brasil com Caças P47 em combate - Senta a pua! - WWII
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f1n7yMQFwk

FEB - JAMBOCK - P47-Brazilian Fighter Squadron - WARII
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBOUk2vFRQI

-

Republic P47 Thunderbolt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evPGnicmrQk

"The Unbreakable" P-47 Thunderbolt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83TWBAiAIs8

P-47 Guncam Footage - Strafing Tanks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6f9cqhuARrM

-

Airshows

P-47 "Thunderbolt - Wings Over Houston Air show
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_gwlWCI0V0

A P-47 thunderbolt taking off in Sevierville, Tennessee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi1d4P774eE

Thunder Over Michigan 2005 - P-47 Flyby
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ej-h3TS3OU

Thunder Over Michigan 2005 - YABBOS! P-47 "ThunderJets" er...umm "Thunderbolts" hehe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbVZPvcJUv0

Thunder Over Michigan 2005 - P-47 Strafing Run
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TYE6gfL0oE

Thunder Over Michigan 2005 - P-47 Strafing Run 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSlWfAjzA80

Thunder Over Michigan 2005 - P-47 Strafing Run 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqLN38fdBKA

Thunder Over Michigan 2005 - P-47 Strafing Run 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITrBRdFJBEs

P-47-P51-B25-PhotoShoot
Photo shoot P-47 Thunderbolt P-51 Mustang over Kentucky before 2001 not sure on time frame. Confederate Air Force B-25 Show-Me formation flight/photo shoot dawn patrol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BO7xOsU2CM

Duxford's Flying Legends - Big Birds & Little Friends (includes P-47 and B-17)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyIg73UNQ8g

Duxford Spitfire 2-seater taxi take-off (P47 Thunderbolt and others in the static line up)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pVH5RDkzZA


-

Video taken from iEN's Warbirds 3 featuring the P47 Thunderbolt. (flight simulator game)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WbV72dGQIA

-

[Panzerknacker]

Beautiful videos , very clear ones, sadly no time today to see it all.

[VonWeyer]

Awesome clips George.

[George Eller]

-

Thanks Guys :)

-

[Nickdfresh]

Wildcat..? hmmm not the best performer.

http://www.air-and-space.com/20040516%20Chino/Dsc_0624%20FM-2%20N29FG%20left%20front%20taxiing%20l.jpg

But just good enough to hold the line...

[Panzerknacker]

That is true, the Zero was a very overrated aircraft if you asking me.

[George Eller]

-

Memphis Belle The Story of a Flying Fortress 1944 - Color - 41 minutes 30 seconds
One of the best documentaries made during the second world war, a good insight into the daily life of B-17 crew.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2683413579748075712&q=%22b-17%22
another link
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7489217776148774785&q=%22b-17%22
shorter introduction
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4006920902497844900&q=%22b-17%22

WWII B17 footage - Color - 17 minutes 17 seconds
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2257018867806151378&q=%22b-17%22
another link
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2257018867806151378&q=%22b17%22

Report from the Aleutians - Color - 47 minutes 4 seconds
A official documentary movie about the misson of the US forces on an island of the Aleutians, from which US bombers are attacking the Japanese occupied island Kiska. The movie includes footage from a bombing raid over Kiska with B-17 and B-24 bombers.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2780483724942444910&q=%22b-17%22

Color newsreel footage of American B17 bombers over Germany.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2753554690795579878&q=%22b-17%22
another link
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2753554690795579878&q=%22b17%22

MISSION
Music video of a typical Eighth Army Air Force bombing mission. Originally part of an oral history taken from a B-17 navigator. The ... all » purpose of the video is to give the viewer a sense of what a mission was from takeoff to landing
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8243374180096578890&q=%22b-17%22

B-17 being attacked
Quite amazing footage from the gun camera of a German aicraft attacking a B-17 bomber, these planes where also known as the flying ... all » fortress, this video is a testament of the ruggedness of these wonderful planes, it also gives a glimpse into the type of attack the brave airman that manned the planes had to suffer.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7931404995467072231&q=%22b-17%22
another link
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7583924550380356308&q=%22b-17%22

B-17 Flying Legend: Robert M. Janson (A Photo Essay)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6994659934983658316&q=%22b-17%22

"Aluminum Overcast" - Color - 38 minutes 25 seconds
The flying fortress turned the tides of the war over europe. This amazing aircraft brought home many of pilots and crew. The Experimental Aircraft Association ownes and operates this particular aircraft. See footage and historical photo's of the B=17 in action. Hear first person accounts of flying over Germany and what the pilots and crew endured on those long missions. This is downloadable in the MPEG 4 format
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1539420054655161693&q=%22b-17%22

John O'Connor. World War II. Air Force. Veterans Memorial Archive
B-17 Bomb run. ETO. Oral History
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5019079588727977426&q=%22b-17%22

* B17 Ride - Color - 19 min 11 sec (Recommended)
Ride in a B17 ww2 bomber at Willow Run airshow Detroit 2005
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1936040434465100525&q=%22b17%22

* B17 Nose Turret - Color - Airshow (Recommended)
View from the nose turret of a B17 Flying Fortress while in flight.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1853201332453847618&q=%22b17%22

Riding in the nose of a B-17G. Over the east San Francisco Bay Area.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsgHJiTm3E8&mode=related&search=

B-17 flight: takeoff - from inside the plane at waist gunner position.
Taking off in a B-17G at Hayward Airport, California. Sorry for the annoying camera clicks- I can take photos while I film, and it freeze frames and adds the cheesy click, I now discovered.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hsDZbA2Cg4&mode=related&search=

Flying in a B17 Bomber
I've always wanted to fly in a WWII Warbird and I finally did! Flying a warbird over Hilton Head, SC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2i9VRGoxN0&mode=related&search=
another link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSoPq9oc73k&mode=related&search=

B-17 ball turret gunner - Airshow
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2342330782419863828&q=%22b-17%22

B-17 ball turret gunner exit - Airshow
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8881219139607844104&q=%22b-17%22

Aluminum Overcast - A WWII Vintage Aircraft
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8178436180257990974&q=%22b-17%22

B-17 Walkaround.
A minute long clip of a walk around a WWII B-17 Flying Fortress called Nine-0-Nine from Wings Over Gillespie in El Cajon on April 22, 2006.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwC1S2Mjq6w&mode=related&search=

Warbirds: B17 Sally B at Duxford
Warbirds - fairly rare clip I got off a now-defunct sat channel called 'Magazine' this has something to do with the mag Flypast and is about B17 Sally B at Duxford.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HGd0XQx6u4&mode=related&search=

Warbirds: Sally B Lands at Duxford
Warbirds: Sally B Lands at Duxford comes in past another B17 Mary Alice and Vulcan XL426.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP7biwK1gdU&mode=related&search=

Duxford Flying Legends 2006 Impressions
Duxford Airshow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsflV7YeJSk&mode=related&search=

B 17 start up - Airshow
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3968654640611446640&q=%22b-17%22

Starting Engines 3&4 and taxiing of EAA's B-17 Aluminum Overcast at Spokane Washington's Felts field
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6280892703843604829&q=%22b-17%22

Taxiing of EAA's B-17 Aluminum Overcast at Felts field before take off at Spokane Washington's Felts field
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=41495730907533585&q=%22b-17%22

Take off of EAA's B-17 Aluminum Overcast at Spokane Washington's Felts field
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7202193379863872706&q=%22b-17%22

Final and landing of EAA's B-17 Aluminum Overcast at Spokane Washington's Felts field
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4992336625709717785&q=%22b-17%22

B-17 fly over and landing at Stafford, VA regional airport 9 October 2006
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1846820631732738934&q=%22b-17%22
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8301332638390053258&q=%22b-17%22

B-17 Yankee Lady and B-24 Diamond Diamond Lil at The Confederate Air Force Show
Lost Nation Airport Willoughby Ohio
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=64580012252994618&q=%22b-17%22

Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress interior at San Marcos Airshow April 2005
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6489005889735641421&q=%22b-17%22

B-17 and B-25 Yellow Rose San Marcos Airshow
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8858689781726797925&q=%22b-17%22

2005 Geneseo Air Show Highlights
B-17, B-25, & F4U (Corsairs)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1996957966401767270&q=%22b-17%22

B-17 Bombing Run @ EAA Oshkosh Wisconcin Air Show 2006
Also features Lancaster bomber and P-51 Mustang.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2491348734637061271&q=%22b-17%22

DER TAG DER VETERANEN - Oshkosh Wisconcin Air Show 1995
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3084372190320395357&q=%22b-17%22

B17 Flying Fortress flyby over Warsaw
Flyby over Old Town in Warsaw of B17 Flying Fortress during 62-nd Anniversary of Warsaw Uprising.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1919043432103861240&q=%22b17%22

ME 109's attacking B-17's
Various angles of an attack by BF109's on some guys in their flying fortresses.It musta been tough up there, respect to all you guys that fought in ww2.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3562652847428590456&q=%22b17%22

Messerschmitt ME109's
This is footage of two ME109s with original Daimler Benz engines filmed in 1996. It is a trailer from a DVD release called "One Summer - Two Messerschmitts" availabe at www.FlyingMachines.TV ... (more)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tq21MLP8gYI&mode=related&search=

Messerschmitt Bf 109 G10
From Video Game
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1960333192078104951&q=%22b17%22

Ball turret gunner
From Video Game
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1557589706299087565&q=%22b17%22

Airshow Action: Spitfire at Duxford
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YOr9ZWArRE&mode=related&search=
Spitfire line-up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0QsW_MPuM0&mode=related&search=
Warbirds: Spitfire Doc Pt3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_u5r9Oc7hg&mode=related&search=

-

[VonWeyer]

I't must of been awesome flying in a B17.
Those nose turret clips are brilliant.
Awesome clips George.
Thanx.

[Panzerknacker]

A lot of videos there George, very good :twisted:

[Laconia]

I liked the P-47 Thunderbolt and the B-24 .

[George Eller]

-

Thanks Guys :)

Watching films like these makes me feel good - a nice way to unwind.

My favorites were:

* B17 Ride - Color - 19 min 11 sec (Recommended)
Ride in a B17 ww2 bomber at Willow Run airshow Detroit 2005
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1936040434465100525&q=%22b17%22

* B17 Nose Turret - Color - Airshow (Recommended)
View from the nose turret of a B17 Flying Fortress while in flight.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1853201332453847618&q=%22b17%22

Riding in the nose of a B-17G. Over the east San Francisco Bay Area.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsgHJiTm3E8&mode=related&search=

The B-24, P-47 and other vintage aircraft were a nice bonus too in the first clip (B17 Ride).

Glad you all liked it. :)

-

[VonWeyer]

Thanx for the feedback.

[George Eller]

-

Color video clip showing P-47 Thunderbolts strafing German Tiger tanks.
(saw this posted at another forum and had to post it here).
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6635752499311348219&q=wwii

-

[Panzerknacker]

God dam...I never see so many tracer fliying around in my life.:shock:


I think is a Panther tank, probably some hit in the engine compartment made it caught fire.

[George Eller]

-

I can't say for sure whether it is a Tiger or Panther. On my player the images are a little blurry.

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/1074/p47strafing01dz9.jpg

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/3007/p47strafing02jy6.jpg

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/4258/p47strafing03oa5.jpg

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4250/p47strafing04nz5.jpg

-

[Panzerknacker]

Well , I am not 100 % sure, but my "sixt sense" told me so. :cool:

[ww2admin]

George, we uploaded it. As a matter of fact, it's been in our video gallery section. OK, just making sure you know:)

[George Eller]

George, we uploaded it. As a matter of fact, it's been in our video gallery section. OK, just making sure you know:)
-

Thanks ww2admin,

Oops, maybe I should visit there more often. Right under my nose all this time. :)

-

[ww2admin]

A year or two ago, we took a look at that screenshot (I have it on DVD from the History Channel) and we still could not determine with 100% accuracy what it was, but it was 99% not a Tiger Tank.

[VonWeyer]

That's a brilliant piece of footage.
It' great to hear a bit of narration on how and why they fired that way.

[redcoat]

That's a brilliant piece of footage.
It' great to hear a bit of narration on how and why they fired that way.
Amazing that the pilot mentioned the myth that they were able to KO a tank by firing at the ground and bouncing bullets up into its unarmoured belly.
Fact is, the underneath of tanks were armoured. They normally had the same thickness of armour as fitted to the top of the tank, and it would be impossible for a .50 bullet which had hit, and bounced off the ground, to penetrate the armour fitted on the belly ( it would have not only been blunted by the impact on the ground, it would also have lost a great deal of its velocity)

Top/Belly armour fitted to the main German tanks late-war

Pzr IV 10mm/10mm

Tiger I 25mm/25mm

Panther 16mm/16mm

As you can see, there is no advantage to bouncing rounds off the ground into the belly.

[Panzerknacker]

And the "bounce " had to be in an perfect angle to penetrate, if is some truth in that chance.

[George Eller]

-

According to one source that I've read:

M-2HB Browning .50 Caliber Machine Gun:
muzzle velocity of 2,930 fps to maximum range of 1,250 yards.
M-8 .50 Cal. API (Armour Piercing, Incendiary) round can penetrate
an inch of armour plate at 1,000 yards.

from Arsenal of Democracy, Tom Gervasi, Grove Press, 1977, p 222

One inch = 25.4 mm

Does anyone else have information on armour penetration capability of .50 cal. AP rounds?

-

[Panzerknacker]

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/50.htm

[George Eller]

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/50.htm
-

Thanks for the link Panzerknacker.
I guess the 19 mm for 1939-46 includes armour piercing rounds.

-

[VonWeyer]

Great feedback guys.

[Panzerknacker]

guess the 19 mm for 1939-46 includes armour piercing rounds.


It does it was the maximum armor penetration of that round.


http://www.100thbg.com/mainmenus/airplanes/airplanes2/Wgun.jpg

[GermanSoldier]

Mustang

[Flammpanzer]

only from the point of "good-looking" I like many us warplanes. the B-26 marauder or B-26 invader are very nicely shaped planes from any angle. I also like the mustang, it sure was one of the most modern and effective piston-engine fighters and in addition to this a beautiful machine.
thr p 47 is a too fat assed bird (I do not like the design so much), but much feared for its strafing-activities and for being a fast fighter (could dive as fast or even faster as late versions of the 109).

jens

[RifleMan20]

I would have to say the B-29 Superfortress and the P-51 Mustangs would have to be my favs.

[Torque]

My favorite American fighter is the P-51D Mustang.

The Mustang had legs.

Unparalled range that enabled the USAAF to successfully bomb targets deep into enemy territory. More of a strategic rather than tactical edge. However, what good is a fighter if it isn't there to battle with the enemy?

The Mustang excelled in it's arena of combat.

Superior high altitude performance. This is the place where Mustangs were needed to protect the "Heavies".

Outstanding visibility from the cockpit.

The axiom lose sight, lose fight comes to mind.

Last but not least I have personally flown a Mustang!

http://www.wargamer.com/articles/P-51d_flight/


My favorite US bomber is the B-24 Liberator. Jimmy Stewart flew 20 combat missions (usually the tough ones) in them, was a B-24 Squadron Commander (703rd), Group (453rd) and Wing (2nd) Operations Officer and at the end of the war, Wing Commander (2nd Combat Bomb Wing) rising to the rank of Colonel.


There are many great US/UK/USSR and warplanes. However, the Mustang is my favorite US fighter. The Hellcat is a close second on the US side.

[panzerpete]

i would say b 17 and p51

[AllHailCesar]

I like the P-40 TOMAHAWK. Not the newest, fastest, or most graceful, just a lot of heart and soul....from what I've hear. B-25.....Doolittle raid.

[Cavalry Gunner]

The P-51 for my favorite fighter an the B-29 for the bomber
reasons:

The P-51 its speed and agility were unsurpassed and it had enough range to give our bombers protection all the way to target and back.

the B-29 again it could operate above the celing of all axis fighters and had a massive payload for its day (Jimmy Doolittle loved this bomber)


Cavalry Gunner

[Firefly]

B-29 again it could operate above the celing of all axis fighters

From the ww2 aviation site....

Ki-45 Toryu ('Nick') twin-engined fighter, succesfully used by 4th & 53rd Sentais against Superfortresses over Japan

A6M7 Model 63 Zero ('Zeke') single engined Navy carrier fighter, one of the old hands of the Navy but performed poor at high altitudes, good maneuvrability however.

Ki-61 Hien ('Tony') single engined interceptor, most succesful user by far was the famous 244th Sentai under Maj Teruhiko Kobayashi (over 100 kills), although 56th Sentai engaged Superfortresses over Kyushu as well.

Ki-44 Shoki ('Tojo') single engined high altitude interceptor, astonishing rate of climb (5,000 m in just over four minutes) and good performance at 10,000 m as well. The 23rd, 47th and 70th Sentai used them in ramming attacks against B-29s to great effect.

Ki-100 Goshikisen single-engined fighter, derived from the Focke Wulf 190 and a very succesful fighter, performance slightly less at altitude but very maneuvrable, fast roll rate, tight turning capabilites.

J2M3 Raiden ('Jack') single-engined Navy fighter, I don't know a lot about these, so all info is especially welcomed. For sure they were the Navy's most succesful B-29 'killer'.

Although they didnt shoot down huge numbers, they could and did operate at the height of the B-29.

[kallinikosdrama1992]

p-51 mustang the best no question asked . but i also like the p-47 thunderbold

[Timbo in Oz]

A fighter bomber is a fighter that was regularly used for day-time ground attack and ground support missions with bombs, rockets and guns.

While also retaining the capacity to defend itself against enemy CAP fighters. which twin engine attack aircraft like the A26 or the Mosquito or Hs126 could not.

So we go with single engined fighter aircraft, I think! Noting as we do that almost all such s-e-fighters were used in this role or couldadopt it hwne needed, say over Normandy for the first three months

Noting that a GOOD or BEST one would have to be one that was mostly used for this job, because it was suited and/or proved so to be, even if not originally designed for it.

The A36 Invader version of the NA P51 was used as an attack aircraft and P51B and D units were encouraged to do frei-jagd and ground-strafing efforts on their way home from escort missions. But ground attack was very risky for the pilots as its glycol radiator was particularly vulnerable to LAAA fire - engine seizures within a minute or two far from home. And occupied Europe and Germany had heaps of LAAA by 44!

This seems to me to rule the P51 OUT of discussion, as one of the BEST fighter bombers!

IMO The WWII standouts were

UK/Cwlth built models - Hawker's - Hurricane MkII, and IV, though to the end - and the Typhoon. Possibly/maybe??? the Spit5/7/8/9 LF versions where fitted with bombing shackles, being a bit less vulnerable? to ground fire than the p51.

Japan? WGAS!? eh?

Germany? the FW190,

USA built - P39 and P63, P40, and P47

The two Bell models were very effective in this role for the Russians.

the P40 had the longest service, and was a hugely effective jabo from NTH africa onwards.

And, it remained a tolerably capable fiVfighter type too - if the pilot knew how to fly it to its limits, which was do-able without massive muscular effort unlike say in a Zero, Me109, or Macchi. This also applies to the Hurricane and all the Merlin Spits.

Yet for me the record of the Jug as a fighter bomber from 1944 onwards is simply outstanding. And it has to be the winner! by ahair over the p40

Given the OP wanted a thread on the best American (made and flown by) fighter bomber of WWII it seems to me to have been an open and shut case!

JBTW I too dislike posts stating mere enthusiasm sans any cogent supporting arguments!

This thread was packed with them!


Tim B

[ww11freak34]

the hellcat is my favourite becuse it was fast and had good guns

[Robert Bailey]

Well, the P-51 is definitely the most glamorous American fighter, but I think research would bear out that the most effective US fighter-bomber was the P-47 Thunderbolt, which could carry more ordinance, and thanks to it's air-cooled radial engine, was less susceptible to ground fire. William Wyler's OWI short Thunderbolts! shows them in action in Italy, and the WW II in color series on A&E unearthed some amazing color movies shot of them taking the battle to Germany in the fighter-bomber role. A lot of spectacular color footage of Thunderbolts blowing up trains and convoys can be seen in a Hollywood movie "Fighter Squadron" which uses authentic gun camera shots.

It may not have been as pretty as the P-51, but the P-47 seemed to excel in the fighter-bomber role.