What if Germany didnt invade Russia ?

[T-34s_Are_Cool]

One of the great "what if's". What if Germany hadn't invaded Russia and kept chewing away at Britain who at the time eastern invasion weren't going so well?

[South African Military]

I believe that in other posts we have stated that Britain would never fall because it was practically impossible for Germany to land on Britain, even if Germany did not attack Russia. I think that if Germany did not attack, Stalin would stick with his origional plan of trying to unite Europe under his control, and would strike Germany sooner or later. Well anyways thats what I think.

[Sturmtruppen]

they could form a powerfull alliance and win the war.



END :lol:

[Firefly]

Who could form a powerfull alliance? Germany and the Soviets were already allied.

[Sturmtruppen]

Who could form a powerfull alliance? Germany and the Soviets were already allied.
yes,i forgot that.

well,they can continue allies.

[Hanz Lutz]

Maybe russia attack britany :lol:

[Sturmtruppen]

Maybe russia attack britany :lol:
:lol: that means,europe for russia,and then,usa for russia,and then,the world for russia! :twisted:

[Komissar Ombrok]

Not so funny (btw, hi to all, I'm back), if you remember, that Stalin has about 5000 swimming tanks to invade Britain, and he also has a lot bombers with good range. The main mistake of Hitler, and the most imortant reason why he lost "Battle to Britain", that germans hasn't have such bombers, and couldn't destroy far industrial centers. In reality, bombers range can cover only 10% of Britain territory (Adolf Halland "First and last") More interesting question, WHY Hitler invade Russia. In the best condition of attack, with war by Hitlers plans, the war with Russia was suicidal fo Germany. Even Bismark was wrote such things. As I said before, the Europe must build golden statue of Hitler, because he save Europe from Stalin's invasion.

[Hanz Lutz]

Yes that's true but he lost becouse RAF have very good pilots and fighters ,germans bombers are destroyd over the atlantic ,and RAF have american's help,.

[Komissar Ombrok]

I can't understimate RAF pilots. Britain had a good pilots and good planes, but even best pilots are nothing without planes. If Hitler had a bombers with far range, he could supress Britain air industry and take air domination. Without air covering, Britain may lost a Navy very quick. And after that, operation "Sea Lion" could be real.

[South African Military]

Not so funny (btw, hi to all, I'm back), if you remember, that Stalin has about 5000 swimming tanks to invade Britain, and he also has a lot bombers with good range. The main mistake of Hitler, and the most imortant reason why he lost "Battle to Britain", that germans hasn't have such bombers, and couldn't destroy far industrial centers. In reality, bombers range can cover only 10% of Britain territory (Adolf Halland "First and last") More interesting question, WHY Hitler invade Russia. In the best condition of attack, with war by Hitlers plans, the war with Russia was suicidal fo Germany. Even Bismark was wrote such things. As I said before, the Europe must build golden statue of Hitler, because he save Europe from Stalin's invasion.

What good would those 5000 swimming tanks be without a good enough navy?? No I do not think the main factor of German defeat in the BoB was not being able to destroy the industries. It might of been a factor. I think it was Hitlers' mistake by not destroy the radar towers allong the coast. He can then go on to the factories and stuff after.

I can't understimate RAF pilots. Britain had a good pilots and good planes, but even best pilots are nothing without planes. If Hitler had a bombers with far range, he could supress Britain air industry and take air domination. Without air covering, Britain may lost a Navy very quick. And after that, operation "Sea Lion" could be real.

With Radar at that time I do not think Hitlers bombers would of done that much damage. Bombers are extremely vulnerable, and being able to deploy fighters at the right spot at the right time is key.

[Komissar Ombrok]

What good would those 5000 swimming tanks be without a good enough navy?? No I do not think the main factor of German defeat in the BoB was not being able to destroy the industries. It might of been a factor. I think it was Hitlers' mistake by not destroy the radar towers allong the coast. He can then go on to the factories and stuff after.

Navy is nothing, when enemy has a total air control. Ships in the sea is exellent targets for any type of bombers. And in the WW2 selfaimed anti-air miisiles was nothing more a dream :) With good air covering swimming tanks could easy to cross La Manche. Yep, losses was also more than normal, but Red Army didn't count losses in any time.



With Radar at that time I do not think Hitlers bombers would of done that much damage. Bombers are extremely vulnerable, and being able to deploy fighters at the right spot at the right time is key.

This words right to tactic bombers, like Ju-88. But if you take, for example Soviet bomber TB-7, you change your mind. NO ONE interseptor (except jet fighters) of WW2 can't reach height of flight TB-7. Bomb load - 4 tonns, instead 500 kg of Ju-88 (and 500 kg - was overloading for that type of plane). What could be, if Hitler hade such planes? TB-7 was researced before WW2, and theoretically, Hitler also may have it... And what the reason to use radar if you can't shoot down enemy bomber?

[Man of Stoat]

I can't say I've ever heard of any Soviet swimming tanks - the only ones I've ever heard of are the Sherman DD tanks.

Please post some evidence of your claim.

As to swimming tanks crossing the channel, you've got to be kidding - many DD tanks were dropped a couple of km offshore on D-Day & were swamped.

[Komissar Ombrok]

Most links I have all in Russian. Try to find names:

T-37A
T-38
T-40

I think, Dani can provide some good links, he has a talent to that :)

That will be enough to understand, that your mistaken. Tanks T-38 was experienced in Onejskoe lake in the storm. All sea sailors told, that that lake more dangerous then sea, becouse of specific "stilled waves". 250 km by water in the storm, is enough I think to prove ability to cross La Mance? Amrams can't even compare with swimming tanks in water-way transporting.

[Man of Stoat]

Most links I have all in Russian. Try to find names:

T-37A
T-38
T-40

I think, Dani can provide some good links, he has a talent to that :)

That will be enough to understand, that your mistaken. Tanks T-38 was experienced in Onejskoe lake in the storm. All sea sailors told, that that lake more dangerous then sea, becouse of specific "stilled waves". 250 km by water in the storm, is enough I think to prove ability to cross La Mance? Amrams can't even compare with swimming tanks in water-way transporting.

fair enough - looking at the pictures gives the impression that they'd be swamped by a small wave though...

[Komissar Ombrok]

fair enough - looking at the pictures gives the impression that they'd be swamped by a small wave though...

As I told - 250 km by water in the storm. Impression - isn't a fact. They CAN do it. But... Cost of theirs ability - was armor. And in the defensive war with German they was very quick lost... :(

[Cuts]

...

250 km by water in the storm, is enough I think to prove ability to cross La Mance? Amrams can't even compare with swimming tanks in water-way transporting.

250 km in open water ! That's impressive, how long did it take them ?

[Komissar Ombrok]

250 km in open water ! That's impressive, how long did it take them ?

Really don't know. All testing was two weeks, but also including about 400 km of ground moving. Clear time of water transportation is not been published.

[Dani]

I think, Dani can provide some good links, he has a talent to that :)
Thanks Komissar! :oops: :oops:
Here it is a T37A from http://www.wwiivehicles.com/ussr/tanks_light/t37.html
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/2637/a026xw.jpg

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/2884/a0228su.jpg

Technical specs:
http://www.onwar.com/tanks/ussr/data/t37a.htm

Pics (including some from Kubinka Museum:
http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/galleries/T_37.htm

T 38 will follow :D

Edited: Will follow, with exception of those T 38 from http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/galleries/T_38.htm

[Dani]

T 38 In Finland's Army(!)

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/1774/t384ut.jpg

Soviet T 37A :

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/3901/soviett372qs.jpg

Quoted from: http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/finland/finland.html

[Dani]

250 km in open water ! That's impressive, how long did it take them ?

Really don't know. All testing was two weeks, but also including about 400 km of ground moving. Clear time of water transportation is not been published.

When took place this test?

[BDL]

Navy is nothing, when enemy has a total air control. Ships in the sea is exellent targets for any type of bombers. And in the WW2 selfaimed anti-air miisiles was nothing more a dream :) With good air covering swimming tanks could easy to cross La Manche. Yep, losses was also more than normal, but Red Army didn't count losses in any time.

The German Air Force didn't have a bomb that could penetrate the deck armour of British battleships. The English Channel is notorious for it's bad weather, even in summer (look at D-Day being delayed by 24 hours because of storms) - if it was too rough for big heavy landing craft, small swimming tanks would have had no chance.

[Komissar Ombrok]

When took place this test?

Afaik, July 1939.

The German Air Force didn't have a bomb that could penetrate the deck armour of British battleships. The English Channel is notorious for it's bad weather, even in summer (look at D-Day being delayed by 24 hours because of storms) - if it was too rough for big heavy landing craft, small swimming tanks would have had no chance.

Yes. But Red Army has exellent 4-tonns bombs. One, maximum two bombs enough to destroy any battleship. In D-Day was used tanks not adaptive to swimming. The hull of abrams - not more good then axe for swim. Soviet swimming tank was initiually researched for such types of operations. Anti-water protection of radiator and gun, germetic hull, good hull form for swim. See to the front side of tracks! That form? theoretically very vulnerable to hit, but give to tank ability of climb very high point for landing.

[Cuts]

What if Germany didn't invade Russia ?

As the old Intourist slogan went:


"Visit the Soviet Union !


(Before the Soviet Union visits you...)"

[Komissar Ombrok]

What if Germany didn't invade Russia ?
As the old Intourist slogan went:

"Visit the Soviet Union !

(Before the Soviet Union visits you...)"

:D Yep. It's true... That was old joke, about 1980, (G)erman and (S)oviet officers talking:
B: I go to work on the Folkswagen, to the outskirt I have an Opel, when I want to go to other countries I take my Mercedes
S: Hmm... To outskirt I go with train, to work with bus. And to the other countries I go only by tank...

[Firefly]

Contrary to any popular misconception, hitting a moving ship with a straight and level bomber isnt easy at all. Dive bombers even have a problem if they are untrained.

I have 2 problems with the swimming tanks and heavy bomber theory.

1. The swimming tanks idea is just too far fetched. Wheres the infantry support, the logistics support etc etc etc.

2. Back to the Air Force, they had no experience in attacking Capital Ships and as far as I know had no Torpedo armed aircraft.

[Commando Jordovski]

Welll, if Nazi Germany Stayed neutral or even Allied with the soviet Union i think they would of caused a more major impact on europe, and the war would of gone on alot longer and if that happeend then POSSIBLY the U.S.A would drop an Atom Bomb on Berlin.

[Commando Jordovski]

By the Way Dani, you got some really amazing and awesome pictures mate. :D :D

[Komissar Ombrok]

Contrary to any popular misconception, hitting a moving ship with a straight and level bomber isnt easy at all. Dive bombers even have a problem if they are untrained.

I have 2 problems with the swimming tanks and heavy bomber theory.

1. The swimming tanks idea is just too far fetched. Wheres the infantry support, the logistics support etc etc etc.

2. Back to the Air Force, they had no experience in attacking Capital Ships and as far as I know had no Torpedo armed aircraft.

Yes, but TB-7 has a special targeting system, with good testing results. Of course, testing results always better than real usability but they was also more better than other bombers...
Also, Stalin has initiated project "Ivanov" before war. Ivanov - that's most popular russian Last name. In Stalins idea, that was name of plane which production willbe more than people in Russia withthat name. That was equal of Ju-88, but chepest in control and prioduction. Something like Air "T-34". In plans was quantity of 150 000 planes! For complecting it with pilots, Stalin trained not officers, but sergeants! 230 000 "flight sergeants" with shorten training, studied only battle in close formation. The Britain Navy might expected the something like Pearl Harbour, but in greatest scale. But after Hitlers attack, project was close, because the operations of such planes is impossible without air domination. And all industry power was sent to fighter-interseptors and "flight sergeants" was transfered to infantry.

About tanks. Before war was trained more 5 000 000 paratroopers, and send in reserve, until time. Thats might be infantry support for landing operation. With strong air support of tactic bombers and swimming tanks, that forces may take good piece of territory and hold it until arrival of more strong forces.

[Man of Stoat]

About tanks. Before war was trained more 5 000 000 paratroopers, and send in reserve, until time. Thats might be infantry support for landing operation. With strong air support of tactic bombers and swimming tanks, that forces may take good piece of territory and hold it until arrival of more strong forces.

At the start of the war, the strength of the Red Army was 1,500,000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army). So I'm disputing your claim of 5,000,000 trained paratroopers, since it's patently ridiculous. You seem to be making an awful lot of claims like this - are you working from Soviet era textbooks or something?

Also, the Ivanov was not put into production:
http://www.ctrl-c.liu.se/misc/ram/ivanov-polik.html
http://www.ctrl-c.liu.se/misc/ram/ivanov-polik-sh2p044-prev.gif

And was certainly not the equal of the JU88:

Ivanov: 410km/h, 900kg bombs, 1000km?, 8800m ceiling
JU88: 470km/h, 3000kg bombs, 2730km, 8200m ceiling

If you think that I'm getting at you personally, I'm not - every time anyone makes a strange sounding claim on here, it's investigated (Ferrous gent's legacy).

[Komissar Ombrok]

At the start of the war, the strength of the Red Army was 1,500,000 So I'm disputing your claim of 5,000,000 trained paratroopers, since it's patently ridiculous. You seem to be making an awful lot of claims like this - are you working from Soviet era textbooks or something?
I studied many materials. But you right - 1.500 000 official. + about 500 000 of NKVD army. But that was Army of peace time. There is a mobilization reserve of trained, but reserved soldiers. I strongly recommend to find book "Day-M" of V. Suvorov, but afaik it restricted in Britain and USA. Find it in the i-net.


Also, the Ivanov was not put into production
Yes, as I said, because all industry was send to build interseptors.

And was certainly not the equal of the JU88:
Ivanov: 410km/h, 900kg bombs, 1000km?, 8800m ceiling
JU88: 470km/h, 3000kg bombs, 2730km, 8200m ceiling

Of course, it didn't copy the Ju-88, but I mean, the strategic and tactic use of that planes was same. Small tactic bomber. Btw, read the Halland, for increasing bombers range, Ju - 88, offen take only two 500 kg-bomb (very close to Ivanov) and range of Ivanov was about 2000 km, not 1000

[Dani]

every time anyone makes a strange sounding claim on here, it's investigated (Ferrous gent's legacy).

:D :D That's true for sure.

[Komissar Ombrok]

I don't have anything to oppose investigation. Do it. I think, to be historian, even hobby-historian, is to ability to ask questions and find answers. I think, I can make some questions for you, but I don't think that you will like some answers :)

[Man of Stoat]

At the start of the war, the strength of the Red Army was 1,500,000 So I'm disputing your claim of 5,000,000 trained paratroopers, since it's patently ridiculous. You seem to be making an awful lot of claims like this - are you working from Soviet era textbooks or something?
I studied many materials. But you right - 1.500 000 official. + about 500 000 of NKVD army. But that was Army of peace time. There is a mobilization reserve of trained, but reserved soldiers. I strongly recommend to find book "Day-M" of V. Suvorov, but afaik it restricted in Britain and USA. Find it in the i-net.

I'm afraid I do not believe the figure of 5,000,000 trained paratroopers held in reserve - here are the strengths of the airbourne forces, incl. reserves: http://www.1jma.dk/articles/1jmaarticlesww2russiaparatroops.htm

You will also find that the USA and UK do not restrict the availability of books - I can walk into any serious bookshop & walk out with "Mein Kampf".


Also, the Ivanov was not put into production
Yes, as I said, because all industry was send to build interseptors.
What about the Neman R10 which was put into production instead of the Ivanov? What about all the medium & heavy bombers? Not all industry was switched to producing interceptors!


And was certainly not the equal of the JU88:
Ivanov: 410km/h, 900kg bombs, 1000km?, 8800m ceiling
JU88: 470km/h, 3000kg bombs, 2730km, 8200m ceiling

Of course, it didn't copy the Ju-88, but I mean, the strategic and tactic use of that planes was same. Small tactic bomber. Btw, read the Halland, for increasing bombers range, Ju - 88, offen take only two 500 kg-bomb (very close to Ivanov) and range of Ivanov was about 2000 km, not 1000

The JU88 is not a small tactical bomber - it's a medium bomber! Comparing apples and oranges!

[Komissar Ombrok]

I'm afraid I do not believe the figure of 5,000,000 trained paratroopers held in reserve - here are the strengths of the airbourne forces, incl. reserves: http://www.1jma.dk/articles/1jmaarticlesww2russiaparatroops.htm

You will also find that the USA and UK do not restrict the availability of books - I can walk into any serious bookshop & walk out with "Mein Kampf".

That means you don't know all about books :) Try to find books of V.Suvorov "Day-M" and "Suicide" or "Purge". You will be surprised.


What about the Neman R10 which was put into production instead of the Ivanov? What about all the medium & heavy bombers? Not all industry was switched to producing interceptors!
Not all, but that was more usable for defensive war. Heavy bombers - for strategic bombing, medium - for cover operations. No one massive attack by tactical bombers was made by Soviet. Only by germans and japanesse.


The JU88 is not a small tactical bomber - it's a medium bomber! Comparing apples and oranges!
Medium? Hm... This is very relative. What form of separation on class you use?

[Man of Stoat]

Wikipedia's definition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium_bomber

A medium bomber is a bomber aircraft designed to operate with medium bombloads over medium distances; primarily to distinguish them from the much larger heavy bombers and smaller light bombers. The term was used primarily prior to and during World War II, when engine power was so scarce that designs had to be carefully tailored to their missions. The medium bomber was generally considered to be any design that delivered about 4,000 lb (1.8 t) over ranges of about 1,500 to 2,000 miles (2,400 to 3,200 km). Heavy bombers were those with a nominal load of 8,000 lb (3.6 t) or more, and light bombers carried 2,000 lb (0.9 t) loads. These distinctions were already disappearing by the middle of WWII, when the average fighter aircraft could now carry a 2,000 lb (0.9 t) load and ever more powerful engines allowed "light" designs to largely take over the missions formerly filled by mediums.

[Komissar Ombrok]

Ok. With such zero point, Ju-88 is medium bomber ( I used russian system of classification, there Ju was light bomber) But in the use, was no big difference between Ju and Ivanov...

[South African Military]

Ok. With such zero point, Ju-88 is medium bomber ( I used russian system of classification, there Ju was light bomber) But in the use, was no big difference between Ju and Ivanov...

Besides the fact that you need at least 4 Ivanovs for every Ju

[Komissar Ombrok]

Besides the fact that you need at least 4 Ivanovs for every Ju

I prefer number 3.
If the plan of build 150 000 Ivanov was reelized, then how much Ivanov would be on the one Ju? :) I think enough...

[Firefly]

Another fantastical claim here. It just presumes so much without any proof.

Anyway, the only reason that the Soviet Union was able to produce the numbers it did was with massive aid. Most food, clothing for uniforms, fuel, transport (over 500,000) trucks, Half Tracks, a lot of armour and thousands of tons of alluminium to build the aircraft came from the US.

Not much use in have 150000 planes when everyone to fly them is starving to death is there.

Comrade Joes big book of Stalinist bed time fables is where half this rot comes from.

[Man of Stoat]

Another fantastical claim here. It just presumes so much without any proof.

Anyway, the only reason that the Soviet Union was able to produce the numbers it did was with massive aid. Most food, clothing for uniforms, fuel, transport (over 500,000) trucks, Half Tracks, a lot of armour and thousands of tons of alluminium to build the aircraft came from the US.

Not much use in have 150000 planes when everyone to fly them is starving to death is there.

Comrade Joes big book of Stalinist bed time fables is where half this rot comes from.

That's what I was trying to say, just not in so few words ;)

[Komissar Ombrok]

Another fantastical claim here. It just presumes so much without any proof..

Not fantastic. Dani, please, find links on english!

Anyway, the only reason that the Soviet Union was able to produce the numbers it did was with massive aid. Most food, clothing for uniforms, fuel, transport (over 500,000) trucks, Half Tracks, a lot of armour and thousands of tons of alluminium to build the aircraft came from the US. Not much use in have 150000 planes when everyone to fly them is starving to death is there. Comrade Joes big book of Stalinist bed time fables is where half this rot comes from.

The "Ivanov" plane, and his analog "Pegasus" was VERY cheap in production. Even furniture factories can produce them. Of course, only Soviet "furniture fabrics" , they provide Army with U-2 planes in ww2...
The main food supplies was lost in first days of war, because they was placed near border. Guderian wrote about huge captured tropheys including grain e.t.c. Without sudden attack of German, the Army would have enough supply.

[Firefly]

OK, then explain the performance of the Soviet Forces against Finland in the Winter War?

[Komissar Ombrok]

OK, then explain the performance of the Soviet Forces against Finland in the Winter War?

You mean bad equipment in first days? Self-confidence of Red command. They think, that was easy, because army of Finland was small. But Finland was a good lesson to them. Even to the end of Winter War the problems with equipment and supply was salved. Lesson was paid by many human lifes, of course, but in SU that always was a normal price...

[Hanz Lutz]

Russians lose 126.875 man's in war with Finland.

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=5952

[Commando Jordovski]

Hi:
The germans have had many wars with russia trying to capture the land for hundreds of years not just WW2, they wanted to turn on the russians anyway before they did in 1942.
In my oppinion if the Germans didn't attack Russia and they still lost the War, then the Russians would rise up.

[Commando Jordovski]

Hey Clauss von Stauffeberg, something totally irrelevant, but good choice on your signature mate, ( a coward dies many times, the brave die once ), i used that line in the past for things :D 8)

[Hanz Lutz]

Hey Clauss von Stauffeberg, something totally irrelevant, but good choice on your signature mate, ( a coward dies many times, the brave die once ), i used that line in the past for things :D 8)

Yes very good signature :wink: and taht is true covards died many time :wink: :wink:

[Commando Jordovski]

How many russian men were lost in the war against the Japanese at the start of the 20th century , was it much because they lost alot of men during the first world war aswell as the second world war.
Even though the country is extremely populated you would think a major hole has been inflicted in the population over the last 20th century.

[FW-190 Pilot]

OK, then explain the performance of the Soviet Forces against Finland in the Winter War?

You mean bad equipment in first days? Self-confidence of Red command. They think, that was easy, because army of Finland was small. But Finland was a good lesson to them. Even to the end of Winter War the problems with equipment and supply was salved. Lesson was paid by many human lifes, of course, but in SU that always was a normal price...
hi welcome back, didnt see you since the extinction of dinosours
sorry to go off topic, but are you done with your cards yet?

[Jamminjustin]

Hitler would have had the air space over england if only he had contined to bomb the airfields :evil: . The British pilots admite that it germany had contined to bomb the airstrips and had not started bombing its cities then britian would had fallen and germany could begain its massive invasion with the protect of the Lufwaffe they could have conqued all of britain and the they wont of had a 2 front war so he could move all this troops to the eastern front and crush Stalin at stalingrad and killed a million more russians in the progress. After staligrad he had a open door to the oil rich country and would resupply Hitlers war machine and he would then more on to take over the rest of russia...but being in vain becauce by the time he did this the Japs would have attack Pearl harbor and been at war with the US and had a 2 front war again and the US not having the British island to invade off of would have to work its way though Africa and Itay but this would take twice as long and we would just have nuked Berlin and
crush Germany with it being dropped on again and again and :twisted: :twisted: again :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: and maybe Moscow for losing to the Germans again for the second ww!
THE END

[StalingradK]

I think if Germany didn't attack Russia, the Cold War would have never happened, and the Soviet Union would live on for the time being.

[Commando Jordovski]

I think if Germany didn't attack Russia, the Cold War would have never happened, and the Soviet Union would live on for the time being.

You could well be right, i think if Germany didn't invade the Soviet Union then the Russians would of rissen up after the War.

[Hanz Lutz]

And today not been russia will Great Soviet Union . :lol: :lol:

[Commando Jordovski]

Yeah most likely :)
I perfer the hammer and sickle look to the new striped russian flag, not because it's communist or any of that stuff but it looks so much better. :D

[Firefly]

Hitler would have had the air space over england if only he had contined to bomb the airfields :evil: . The British pilots admite that it germany had contined to bomb the airstrips and had not started bombing its cities then britian would had fallen and germany could begain its massive invasion with the protect of the Lufwaffe they could have conqued all of britain and the they wont of had a 2 front war so he could move all this troops to the eastern front and crush Stalin at stalingrad and killed a million more russians in the progress. After staligrad he had a open door to the oil rich country and would resupply Hitlers war machine and he would then more on to take over the rest of russia...but being in vain becauce by the time he did this the Japs would have attack Pearl harbor and been at war with the US and had a 2 front war again and the US not having the British island to invade off of would have to work its way though Africa and Itay but this would take twice as long and we would just have nuked Berlin and
crush Germany with it being dropped on again and again and :twisted: :twisted: again :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: and maybe Moscow for losing to the Germans again for the second ww!
THE END

Struggled through this badly written piece before I realised that you come from USA, thinking that English wasnt your native language!

A few points though.

1. If Hitler had taken the UK out, why would the US have went to war with Germany?

2. A lot of the scientific work done on the Bomb was done by UK scientists in conjunction with others, also would there have been pressure to make the bomb if the US was not at war?

Oh well, at least you used your own words which is a refreshing change lately.

Welcome aboard.

[Jamminjustin]

Firefly:
1. If Hitler had taken the UK out, why would the US have went to war with Germany?

2. A lot of the scientific work done on the Bomb was done by UK scientists in conjunction with others, also would there have been pressure to make the bomb if the US was not at war

1. Germany was Japans allie so as soon as Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, Hitler declared war on the US so we would have been at war with Germany whether we liked it or not.

2. Yes there would be pressure to build the bomb. Much of it was from German scientist that said Germany was also developing there on bomb so of coure there would be pressure. And yes we did work with other scientist thoughout the world so the bomb would just take longer to make.

And yes make typing sucks and my spelling is not good which makes it worse. At least you had to work to read for what I wrote. :D

[Jamminjustin]

and please dont use the emoticons plainly to flood without writing . :wink:

lol i just found out how to quote for one thing and sry Commando i just liked the smile :twisted:

[Commando Jordovski]

No problem, nice information by the way :wink: and welcome to the Site mate. :D :D

[Hanz Lutz]

Welcome . :lol: :lol:

[Man of Stoat]

No problem, nice information by the way :wink: and welcome to the Site mate. :D :D


Welcome . :lol: :lol:

And I wasted 30 seconds of my life to look at that? :roll:

[Hanz Lutz]

Oooo thats much ,sorry becouse we take you 30 seconds of your life mate. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Dani]

WTF guys :x :x
Stick to the topic, will you???

[Firefly]

[quote=

Claus vod Dullardberg"]

Haaaar, there goes my morning cup-o-tea................



_____________________________________

Cupboards died many times but sideboards only once

[Commando Jordovski]

Well anyway back to the topic :? :?
If Germany hadn't invaded the Soviet Union and stayed neutral all the way through the War the whole world would be different in a way no one will ever know. :shock:

[Commando Jordovski]

For all we know hitler probably flipped a coin to attack the soviet union...heads is attack, tales is stay neutral. :lol: :lol:

[Hanz Lutz]

If hitler not attack soviets ,maybe soviets attack hitler :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:

[StalingradK]

Soviet would never attacked Hitler, look at Operation Barbarossa, Stalin didn't even attack a single soldier until they reached Moscow, LoL, Hitler could have paratrooped over the Kremlin and Stalin would be like, hey, want some VodkA?

[Hanz Lutz]

Hehehe vodka ,germans was lose a war becouse vodka and russian winter. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[South African Military]

Soviet would never attacked Hitler, look at Operation Barbarossa, Stalin didn't even attack a single soldier until they reached Moscow, LoL, Hitler could have paratrooped over the Kremlin and Stalin would be like, hey, want some VodkA?

The Soviet Union was not military prepared at that time, and were badly led. Remember Stalin had plans for invading Europe, he would of done it sooner or later.

[StalingradK]

Still, the one and a half million soldiers that were captured without firing a shot could have put up a good resistance. And I think Stalin might would have invaded Europe after the the Nazis took it all over, but remember, the D-Day landings would never have happened without Russia, because it was only an attempt to set up a Western Front to take the pressure off Russia.

[T-34s_Are_Cool]

they could form a powerfull alliance and win the war.



END :lol:
Thats a scary prospect

[T-34s_Are_Cool]

Maybe russia attack britany :lol:
:lol: that means,europe for russia,and then,usa for russia,and then,the world for russia! :twisted:
Mad that means T-34s for everyone

[Sturmtruppen]

they could form a powerfull alliance and win the war.



END :lol:
Thats a scary prospect
yes,but they formed it :oops: .
i meant they could continue the alliance :P

[Sturmtruppen]

Maybe russia attack britany :lol:
:lol: that means,europe for russia,and then,usa for russia,and then,the world for russia! :twisted:
Mad that means T-34s for everyone

T34s for everyone :twisted:

[T-34s_Are_Cool]

Welll, if Nazi Germany Stayed neutral or even Allied with the soviet Union i think they would of caused a more major impact on europe, and the war would of gone on alot longer and if that happeend then POSSIBLY the U.S.A would drop an Atom Bomb on Berlin.
Assumig of course that germany didnt make one first, The germans came up with idea first and its only because of bombing delays that the yanks made one first :twisted:

[Commando Jordovski]

True, but the British took the Nuclear bomb information, and they owed the Americans for helping them in War so they gave them the Atom Bomb Info. :wink:

[Hanz Lutz]

Perhaps if germany did not attack russia ,who knows russia joined germany and together conquer europe :twisted: :twisted: then america must bombing and moscow too :twisted: :twisted: :wink: :wink:

[1000ydstare]

This is a pointless question, sorry, the invasion of Russia was always on the cards. Hitler wanted living space. And the decayed mass of a country to his East with massive resources and land but a political system of idiocy (stalin killed or imprisoned most of his talent!) meant he thought he could take the place.

[Hanz Lutz]

My post uphere is been joke ,yes hitler always want russian country ,they have oil fields ,he can joining with japanese on east ,and he hate communism ,and he is been very crazy and mad man . :wink:

[Hosenfield]

Hitler was also afraid that the Russians might make a move and invade. Stalin had been planning to invade western europe; thats why he built up the soviet armed forces(even though he purged the officers)

however, i don't think the russians would've been very successful if they invaded Greater germany.

[Commando Jordovski]

The Russians and Germans have had countless wars for well over 500 years...medi eval german armies were always trying to take Russia, and the middle ages.

[Commando Jordovski]

There were many reasons why Germany was defeated by Russia, the weather, the supplies, the Russian scorched earth burning, but i was watching this documentary of a strategy the russians did; the Germans would attack a west town or city pushing more further into the country and the russians would go to the next town and the russians kept on moving to different cities until there was so many of them that the Germans just couldnt push through. 8) 8)

[Hosenfield]

one reason, which i'm proposing, could be the fact that the life expectancy for the average russian in that time period was significantly lower then in western europe. meaning that, more of the 100 million russian men were capable of entering military service, being younger.

[Commando Jordovski]

By the age of 12 Hosenfield, It didn't matter what you were or worked as, if you could hold a rifle, then your a soldier.

[Hanz Lutz]

By the age of 12 Hosenfield, It didn't matter what you were or worked as, if you could hold a rifle, then your a soldier.

Soldier without expirience and soldier who get died in first minutes of battle ,i think.

[Commando Jordovski]

Well 12 year old soldiers would be good for midget submarines :lol: :lol:
and sabotaging enemy equipment.

[Hanz Lutz]

Little partisans :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Commando Jordovski]

If Nazi Germany didnt attack Russia then i think the whole world would be living differently, who knows what could of happened, there are countless "What If's" to say about that battle and relationship between the countries.
If the Germans hadn't attacked the Soviet Union they would of most likely successfully built the Atom Bomb instead of building constant tanks, armory and war related equipment needed in Russia for the Germans.

[Cuts]

If Nazi Germany didnt attack Russia then i think the whole world would be living differently, who knows what could of happened, there are countless "What If's" to say about that battle and relationship between the countries.
If the Germans hadn't attacked the Soviet Union they would of most likely successfully built the Atom Bomb instead of building constant tanks, armory and war related equipment needed in Russia for the Germans.

Why the likelihood of successful atomic r&d ?

There were other theatres that were in dire need of kit too.

[Commando Jordovski]

If Nazi Germany didnt attack Russia then i think the whole world would be living differently, who knows what could of happened, there are countless "What If's" to say about that battle and relationship between the countries.
If the Germans hadn't attacked the Soviet Union they would of most likely successfully built the Atom Bomb instead of building constant tanks, armory and war related equipment needed in Russia for the Germans.

Why the likelihood of successful atomic r&d ?

There were other theatres that were in dire need of kit too.

Well, yes you are right in the fact the germans also drew their attention in techonology on other weapons and genres of equipment needed of repairs or upgrades but alot of the German scientists minds were fixed on finishing the atomic bomb once Russia had been conquered.

[ss-standartanfuhrer]

in my view i think if hitler hadn't attacked the USSR then i think he might have the war. luckily for us we won't get 2 find out lol

[Rebeliune]

I think that in 1941 stalin would have atack Romania and cut of hitlers oil suply... [/list][/code]

[StalingradK]

Stalin? No, hah, his not wanting to ever go to war showed when Germany invaded Soviet Soil and they gained over 700kms into the USSR and captured 1.5 million troops, most not even firing a shot because it was against Stalin's orders.

[Panzer Ace]

If Germany didnt go to war against Russia..... I believe the middle east would of been Germany's to take.... and it would of cut off the oil supply to Britian..... which would of forced Britian to surrender.... which would of made Germany victorious!

With the Middle east and all the oil fields in Germany's hands.... Japan wouldnt have to go to war with the United States... because now they'd have a source of energy!!!

[Hanz Lutz]

If Germany didnt go to war against Russia..... I believe the middle east would of been Germany's to take.... and it would of cut off the oil supply to Britian..... which would of forced Britian to surrender.... which would of made Germany victorious!

With the Middle east and all the oil fields in Germany's hands.... Japan wouldnt have to go to war with the United States... because now they'd have a source of energy!!!

I think then Russians do not let german's to take all oil and ,take control of Middle east just like that.
They for sure want some part of that.

[Firefly]

If Germany didnt go to war against Russia..... I believe the middle east would of been Germany's to take.... and it would of cut off the oil supply to Britian..... which would of forced Britian to surrender.... which would of made Germany victorious!

With the Middle east and all the oil fields in Germany's hands.... Japan wouldnt have to go to war with the United States... because now they'd have a source of energy!!!

AT this time I think the US could produce a lot of the oil the UK needed if not all of it.

[pdf27]

AT this time I think the US could produce a lot of the oil the UK needed if not all of it.
I'm trying to remember where I saw the statistics, but it's something like the US was the biggest producer of crude oil on earth at the time by quite a way. I don't think any of the Arab countries had really developed any oil extraction capability at the time (Saudi Arabia might just have been starting - not sure). There were however certainly some oil fields in Persia (modern day Iran) - IIRC Jackie Fisher and Churchill colluded to secure them around the time of WW1 to allow the RN to build Oil-Fired ships.
In any case, there's more to it than crude. The US also had a hell of a lot of refining capacity and expertise, something everyone else was rather shorter of.
Incidentally, if you're advocating invading the middle east instead of Russia, dare I suggest you look at a map? The terrain is extremely hostile, the road and rail communications are practically nonexistent and you have an immense flank. A flank pointed straight at a rather hostile (if not yet belligerent) Russia. Should Russia join the war on the Allied side, it would be very easy for it to cut off and surround your entire front - Stalingrad on a massive scale. Not a good idea.

[Panzer Ace]

AT this time I think the US could produce a lot of the oil the UK needed if not all of it.
I'm trying to remember where I saw the statistics, but it's something like the US was the biggest producer of crude oil on earth at the time by quite a way. I don't think any of the Arab countries had really developed any oil extraction capability at the time (Saudi Arabia might just have been starting - not sure). There were however certainly some oil fields in Persia (modern day Iran) - IIRC Jackie Fisher and Churchill colluded to secure them around the time of WW1 to allow the RN to build Oil-Fired ships.
In any case, there's more to it than crude. The US also had a hell of a lot of refining capacity and expertise, something everyone else was rather shorter of.
Incidentally, if you're advocating invading the middle east instead of Russia, dare I suggest you look at a map? The terrain is extremely hostile, the road and rail communications are practically nonexistent and you have an immense flank. A flank pointed straight at a rather hostile (if not yet belligerent) Russia. Should Russia join the war on the Allied side, it would be very easy for it to cut off and surround your entire front - Stalingrad on a massive scale. Not a good idea.

Good points.... so tell me... what did Mussolini (and I guess Hitler) want with the Middle East?? Where did Britian get most of her oil/fuel to fight her war? Did most come from US?

Okay... if the Germans had no interest in Middle east.... take out Britian then... force her to surrender by building more U boats and starve her... or negotiate a peace. What else could they have done? Invade Canada? Yeah right!!?!In FY1941 or 42... the germans produced somethign like 30 million tonnes of steel.... only about 8.5 million of that went for military production... so it could of been done. I posted a link in a different topic about that..

[Crab_to_be]

Germany's interest in the middle east? The Suez canal would be at least a consideration. Italy had a history of foreign expansionism there too.

[pdf27]

Good points.... so tell me... what did Mussolini (and I guess Hitler) want with the Middle East?? Where did Britian get most of her oil/fuel to fight her war? Did most come from US?

Okay... if the Germans had no interest in Middle east.... take out Britian then... force her to surrender by building more U boats and starve her... or negotiate a peace. What else could they have done? Invade Canada? Yeah right!!?!In FY1941 or 42... the germans produced somethign like 30 million tonnes of steel.... only about 8.5 million of that went for military production... so it could of been done. I posted a link in a different topic about that..
I'd have to check, but I'm pretty sure that virtually all the UK fuel supplies were imported as refined products from the US. The major consideration was IIRC shipping - refined fuels are easier to handle and require less shipping space, and with the Battle of the Atlantic on this was a very major consideration.
Personally I think the Germans did the best they could in the Battle of the Atlantic given their starting point. The major bottlenecks were in crew training and building the boats, so unless you put Speer in charge of production with a mandate for total war in September 1939 you aren't going to make any substantial improvements to your Atlantic U-boat force. A force that was eventually crushed by the USN, RN, RCN and RAF.
If you do put Speer in charge of U-boat production with the necessary realignment of priorities, you're showing a somewhat unrealistic level of foresight - remember at this stage Germany had only managed to take Poland. If you wait until the end of 1940 (the earliest stage at which it might have been apparent they were desperately needed) you aren't going to do a lot better than actually happened.