Defense Idea

[Enzo Guy]

I was looking at a Cabelas catalog when I noticed rubber buckshot, so I went to Fiocchi and saw both rubber buckshot and rubber slugs. The buckshot has an fps of 790, and the slug has 740. I would just want to knock the guy down, not kill him, so that's why I thought ofrubber shot. I have 2 shotguns capable of firing these rounds, but at a range of 0-40 feet, which would be best?

[Cuts]

I have a box of rubber 'multi ball' 12 bore rds, they're described as limited lethality !
Out at forty feet they'd probably sting like a bastard, and if they hit an eye I'm sure the tgt would be blinded.
At closer ranges I feel that their lethality might not be so limited, hence the description.

I am of the opinion that if a situation has decended to a level where the use of firearms has become necessary, then a continued attempt to go down the 'fluffy route' may result in the injury or death of those who were being defended. (ie you and/or your loved ones.)

I sincerely hope that you are never put in that position, but should it occur it is important you are prepared. I would suggest a course at Gunsite, Thunder Ranch or another training establishment with similarly high credentials.

While reading is not a substitute for realistic trg or experience, it can provide useful suggestions that may augment trg.
Try 'Stressfire' and 'Stressfire II' by Massad Ayoob and any number of writings by Col. Jeff Cooper.

[Enzo Guy]

Well, I work in the ghetto, so a high-danger situation is pretty much every situation. Our office is 5 feet from the front door (garage door, mechanic facilities) so that's where the gun is kept. So at the range of point blank to probably maximum of 15 or 20 feet, I have no doubt these shells have some lethal potential, but that is not my goal. My goal is to knock the intruder to the ground and unconscious, but I have to be able to do it at range, as everyone here has a gun. I want to be able to havethe police arrest the guy and lock him up, I don't want to kill him, but I also want to have a personal defense, and that at close range these can be lethal.

[Man of Stoat]

Assuming that you have a semi-auto or pump shotgun and you want to go down this route, load the tube so that the first one or two cartridges are these rubber things, and load the rest with 00 buck.

This means that if the guy's on drugs or hyped & doesn't go down with the "limited lethality" projectiles, you've got some proper projectiles ready to go downrange. This is one great advantage of the shotgun.

Another "limited lethality" option is birdshot, and is deeply unpleasant for the scrote you have to use it on.

[Ale]

There was a detailed discussion about this in the tactical and self defence shotgun forum at www.shotgunworld.com .

The general feeling there seemed to be that you might run into more legal trouble if you used these sorts of rounds than if you shot someone, something along the lines of "If you used less-than-lethal ammunition to shoot someone, then you can't have believed your life was in danger, so you weren't justified in shooting them". I know that doesn't make a lot of sense (except maybe to lawyers) but the threads are probably worth a look, especially as it is a US based site with more US contributors than here.

Personally, I wouldn't go down the 'less than lethal' route. These projectiles are designed for use by the police, who have extensive training and back up, and often the luxury of more time to assess a situation. These rounds are not designed to incapacitate someone for minutes at a time as I understand it, but to disperse crowds or give officers time to handcuff a suspect. Once you have incapacitated your assailaint, do you have the skills to restrain and cuff him? What if there are more than one assailant, can you disable, cuff and restrain them all one after the other?

I would just load up with buckshot. If you really believe you need a gun to defend yourself then you need a gun with real ammo in it, not rubber balls. If you don't think you need a gun, then get a CS spray or a tyre iron. Trying to find a halfway house will only end in tears imho. Face up to reality, get on a training course or two, and you should be fine.

If you are tempted by MOS' route with both types of ammo, just think about what will happen if you don't have time to shoot off the first two rounds of soft-shot and then some buckshot before the guy gets to you? It can be hard enough to put a threat/target down quickly using real ammo from the first shot, let alone starting with rubber ammo.

[Man of Stoat]

There was a detailed discussion about this in the tactical and self defence shotgun forum at www.shotgunworld.com .

The general feeling there seemed to be that you might run into more legal trouble if you used these sorts of rounds than if you shot someone, something along the lines of "If you used less-than-lethal ammunition to shoot someone, then you can't have believed your life was in danger, so you weren't justified in shooting them". I know that doesn't make a lot of sense (except maybe to lawyers) but the threads are probably worth a look, especially as it is a US based site with more US contributors than here.

Personally, I wouldn't go down the 'less than lethal' route. These projectiles are designed for use by the police, who have extensive training and back up, and often the luxury of more time to assess a situation. These rounds are not designed to incapacitate someone for minutes at a time as I understand it, but to disperse crowds or give officers time to handcuff a suspect. Once you have incapacitated your assailaint, do you have the skills to restrain and cuff him? What if there are more than one assailant, can you disable, cuff and restrain them all one after the other?

I would just load up with buckshot. If you really believe you need a gun to defend yourself then you need a gun with real ammo in it, not rubber balls. If you don't think you need a gun, then get a CS spray or a tyre iron. Trying to find a halfway house will only end in tears imho. Face up to reality, get on a training course or two, and you should be fine.

If you are tempted by MOS' route with both types of ammo, just think about what will happen if you don't have time to shoot off the first two rounds of soft-shot and then some buckshot before the guy gets to you? It can be hard enough to put a threat/target down quickly using real ammo from the first shot, let alone starting with rubber ammo.

Good points - the drawback of the multiple-ammo-types approach is of course as you say.

[Enzo Guy]

I'll probably load the first shot as bird shot, then after that is all #1 buckshot. I looked into some ballistics to see which type of shot is most capable of putting a man down. I read that #1 buckshot was best, as it won't over-penetrate and maybe hit civilians or walls like #00 or #000, but it also has enough pellets to make sure the man is put down.

[Cuts]

Personally I prefer #0 Buck, (LG in the UK.) It has always been a favourite load of mine, nine .32 cal balls per round should sort out an unarmoured life threatening situation if you're ever unlucky enough to be involved in one.

The closest the UK has to #1 Buck is SG, which has twelve pellets as opposed to the #1's eleven (?), but there's little to choose between them.

[Ale]

Personally I prefer #0 Buck, (LG in the UK.) It has always been a favourite load of mine, nine .32 cal balls per round should sort out an unarmoured life threatening situation if you're ever unlucky enough to be involved in one.

The closest the UK has to #1 Buck is SG, which has twelve pellets as opposed to the #1's eleven (?), but there's little to choose between them.

I thought that SG's were equivalent to 00 buckshot? I have some in 2 3/4 and they have 9 balls inside.

[Cuts]

I thought that SG's were equivalent to 00 buckshot? I have some in 2 3/4 and they have 9 balls inside.

I could be wrong, but the LG I have here have a semi-opaque case and a clear plastic topwad, and they hold nine pellets. The SG are in three layers of four.
However they are Swartklip carts, that might have something to do with it.

I've not used US sizes for many years so I looked them up on this site:
http://www.fortliberty.org/military-library/shot-sizes.shtml

[Walther]

What about the old farmer's trick?:
Take a shotgun shell, uncrimp it and replace the lead pellets with coarse salt. The crimp closed again.

The mother of a Ukrainian friend was hit by such a round from a guard's shotgun where it hurts most when she and her friends were stealing fruit from a Kolchose in the 1950s. She couldn't sit or lie on her back for two weeks :D

Jan

[Sturmtruppen]

What about the old farmer's trick?:
Take a shotgun shell, uncrimp it and replace the lead pellets with coarse salt. The crimp closed again.

The mother of a Ukrainian friend was hit by such a round from a guard's shotgun where it hurts most when she and her friends were stealing fruit from a Kolchose in the 1950s. She couldn't sit or lie on her back for two weeks :D

Jan
:lol: ,wise and german,i will do that sir walt!

[Enzo Guy]

What about the old farmer's trick?:
Take a shotgun shell, uncrimp it and replace the lead pellets with coarse salt. The crimp closed again.

The mother of a Ukrainian friend was hit by such a round from a guard's shotgun where it hurts most when she and her friends were stealing fruit from a Kolchose in the 1950s. She couldn't sit or lie on her back for two weeks :D

Jan

I know of this, it's called rock salt. My great-grandfather was hit in the eyes with it and it burnt his eyes out

[Sturmtruppen]

What about the old farmer's trick?:
Take a shotgun shell, uncrimp it and replace the lead pellets with coarse salt. The crimp closed again.

The mother of a Ukrainian friend was hit by such a round from a guard's shotgun where it hurts most when she and her friends were stealing fruit from a Kolchose in the 1950s. She couldn't sit or lie on her back for two weeks :D

Jan

I know of this, it's called rock salt. My great-grandfather was hit in the eyes with it and it burnt his eyes out
:shock: ,oh my god,wtf had the old farmer in his head?

[IRONMAN]

For defense I prefer real bullets. I don't want someone getting back up and coming at me again if he had intentions to harm me in my own home anyway. I have 2 firearms loaded for defence in my home. The deadliest of these is a Mossberg .410 shotgun loaded with #7 shot - devestating at very close range. I hope that i never have to use it, but if they break in and come toward me, they were asking for it. And they will get it.

[Man of Stoat]

And your other is:

http://www.gamingforums.com/showpost.php?p=1133673&postcount=82[/url]]The weapon I am currently using for self defense and keep loaded within 24" of my bed is a Colt .22 revolver made in 1974 with a 9 1/2" barrel and hallowpoints. Not very big calibre, but whith such a barrel and HP's, it will expand to the size of a dime and has the velocity to pass through the victim and then through my wall after that. I feel pretty safe.

I think you'll find that the .22rf hOllowpoints will stop in a cute little bunny wabbit, since that is what they are designed to do.

And I think you'll find that neither .410 nor No.7 shot are particularly devastating.

[IRONMAN]

And your other is:

[quote="http://www.gamingforums.com/showpost.php?p=1133673&postcount=82]The weapon I am currently using for self defense and keep loaded within 24" of my bed is a Colt .22 revolver made in 1974 with a 9 1/2" barrel and hallowpoints. Not very big calibre, but whith such a barrel and HP's, it will expand to the size of a dime and has the velocity to pass through the victim and then through my wall after that. I feel pretty safe.

I think you'll find that the .22rf hOllowpoints will stop in a cute little bunny wabbit, since that is what they are designed to do.

And I think you'll find that neither .410 nor No.7 shot are particularly devastating.

Quite wrong again, as always. Obviously you have ZIP for experience with firearms. Read and learn:

If a high velocity .22 LR is shot into a person at near PB range and does not hit bone, it may pass completely through a man. A .22 has the force to pass through a 2x4 of pine and then a bit more. Human flesh is much softer than wood my patent office clerk friend. A .22 LR travels at about 1200 to 1400 fts. By contrast, a 9mm Parabellus might have a velocity of only 700-1000 fps. Now, at 15m or more, the .22 should not pass through a man. But at near PB, it very well might, if it does not hit bone. However, if it hits bone, it may shatter the bone and vear off, grazing off the bone, and cause trmendous damage to internal organs. Nasty! Nasty nasty nasty! If you hit them in the flat-ish portion of the head or face, who cares about velocity. If it hits the flat of the forehead or an eye socket, it will bounce around in their skull, turning their brains into breakfast eggs. This is why the .22 is the weapon of choice for hitmen. One shot to side or back of the head - no need for a louder pistol.

As for the .410 3 in. mag shotgun, you are again wrong my patent office clerk friend. I'll let someone else explain this to you. First I will inform you that a .410 3" mag will shred human flesh to the bone at near PB range several inches deep for an area of approximately 3 inches to 6 inches in diameter. Yes my boy. This is a devestating weapon at very close range. Devestating indeed. Now, as promised, the testiment of another . (Dig the picture of the .410 designed specifically for home defense. Awesome!)

"Thus, a .410 bore shotgun is a great choice. A 3 inch .410 shot shell fires 3/4 ounce of shot at 1100 feet per second, resulting in approximately 800 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle, and a 2 ½" .410 with ½ ounce of shot produces approximately 600 foot pounds at the muzzle. The delivered energy at the defense ranges considered here are greater than a .357 Magnum revolver cartridge, but the longer barrel and greater weight of the shotgun results in less than half the noise and recoil. More important, the shot pattern is about 8 inches in diameter at 20 feet (full choke), and does not generally penetrate a wall, whereas a .357 Mag bullet pierces walls easily...and unintended victims on the other side.

THE BEST HOME DEFENSE .410 SHOTGUN?

http://www.endtimesreport.com/pictures/HS410.jpg

One excellent .410 bore shotgun for home defense was actually designed specifically for that task...wonder of wonders. The Mossberg HS410 (the "HS" an acronym for "Home Security", model #50359) is a 6 shot pump action shotgun with an 18 ½" barrel having a spreader choke, ideal for close action shooting in home defense situations.

http://www.endtimesreport.com/pictures/saiga410-1.jpg

Now there is another excellent .410 bore shotgun on the market which may well be as good as or better than the Mossberg HS410 - the SAIGA .410 SHOTGUN. The cost of the Saiga is only about $270.00 - delivered, in 2005. It is an adaptation of the Kalashnikov designed AK-47 designed to fire .410 Magnum shot shells, has a semi-automatic action, and it comes with two magazines."

http://www.endtimesreport.com/homedefense.html

EDITED TO CORRECT CODES

[student-scaley]

Not being funny or anything, but why do you need something that powerful? Surely a bog-standard shotgun would get the message across?

[IRONMAN]

Not being funny or anything, but why do you need something that powerful? Surely a bog-standard shotgun would get the message across?

Because if they enter my home, they might want to kill me? My .410 is just a plain one. But especially with 3" mag chamber, it is devestating. The intruder does not get chance No. 2 to come at me.

[student-scaley]

Ok fair enough, personally i wouldn't assume that everyone trying to enter my home would want me dead, but then again you do live in America.

[IRONMAN]

Ok fair enough, personally i wouldn't assume that everyone trying to enter my home would want me dead, but then again you do live in America.

Now now. Intruders kill citizens in their own homes in your country too. Let's not be too snide, shall we? While an intruder might not intend to kill you, if they discover that you are awake and they can see you, they might try to kill you. I don't know about you, but if they come at me, I'm going to assume that they want to kill me, or at least, dissable me. I'd rather not give them that chance. I would not shoot someone if I can see they have no weapon and they do not lunge toward me, but if they have a gun in their hand or if they lunge, I might shoot first. Naturally, if they begin to raise the weapon in their hand, I will instantly shoot. Twice.

[Man of Stoat]

Hollowpoint is designed NOT to over-penetrate. It is designed to exapand and impart its full energy into the target and not come out the other side. .22lr hollowpoint in particular is designed to stop dead in a rabbit. What makes you think that a .22LR hollowpoint that will not go through a rabbit will pass through a human???

The box of 9mm Para that I have in my hand is 124gn FMJ Magtech, and has a muzzle velocity of 1109fps from a 4" test barrel. This gives a muzzle energy of 339ft-lb and an IPSC power factor of 137.5. Dunno what 9mm you have that's only doing 700-1000fps. Guess i'll add that to the lexicon ;)

CCI Stinger .22lr, 32gn, approx. vel. from a 6" handgun barrel = 1395fps (Stinger is VERY fast .22lr ammunition). This gives a pf of 44.6 and a ME of 138 ft-lb. Different ballpark.

And you seem to be quite content to confuse velocity with stopping power.

Your stuff about the .410 does not state which size shot is used. This may be interesting:
http://www.internetarmory.com/shotgun_ammo.htm

410 Gauge:
One Shot Stopping Success: Data Not Available
Recommended Cartridges:

Federal "Classic" slug 88 grains
Winchester "Super X" slug 88 grains


This weak caliber is not really a decent self defense round, even when loaded with slugs. Never use birdshot.

Note that it says "never use birdshot". No.7 is birdshot, btw.

Some more regarding the use of birdshot for self-defence:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs. Although birdshot can destroy a great volume of tissue at close range, the permanent crush cavity is usually less than 6 inches deep, and this is not deep enough to reliably include the heart or great blood vessels of the abdomen. A gruesome, shallow wound in the torso does not guarantee a quick stop, especially if the bad guy is chemically intoxicated or psychotic. If the tissue crushed by the pellets does not include a vital cardiovascular structure there's no reason for it to be an effective wound.

[IRONMAN]

Hollowpoint is designed NOT to over-penetrate. It is designed to exapand and impart its full energy into the target and not come out the other side. .22lr hollowpoint in particular is designed to stop dead in a rabbit. What makes you think that a .22LR hollowpoint that will not go through a rabbit will pass through a human???

When did I say that a .22 hollowpoint will pass through a man? I said a .22 LR might pass through a man. But yes, I have it loaded with Stinger hollowpoint high velocity rounds. I'd rather do damage than go completely through someone.

The box of 9mm Para that I have in my hand is 124gn FMJ Magtech, and has a muzzle velocity of 1109fps from a 4" test barrel. This gives a muzzle energy of 339ft-lb and an IPSC power factor of 137.5. Dunno what 9mm you have that's only doing 700-1000fps. Guess i'll add that to the lexicon ;)

Not all 9mm cartiges are equal, you know. Look at this page at the Firearms Tactical Institute. You will find 9mm catridges with muzzle velocities of 864-1320 fps. Your is rated at somewhere in the middle as velocity is concerened. Cheap ammo from eastern countries can have velocities as low as 700-800 fps. I do not recommend such crap ammunition, however.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm

CCI Stinger .22lr, 32gn, approx. vel. from a 6" handgun barrel = 1395fps (Stinger is VERY fast .22lr ammunition). This gives a pf of 44.6 and a ME of 138 ft-lb. Different ballpark.

And you seem to be quite content to confuse velocity with stopping power.

Yes! I use CCI Minimag "Stinger" hollowpoints in my .22 Colt, which has a 9 1.2" barrel, BTW.

Your stuff about the .410 does not state which size shot is used. This may be interesting:
http://www.internetarmory.com/shotgun_ammo.htm

410 Gauge:
One Shot Stopping Success: Data Not Available
Recommended Cartridges:

Federal "Classic" slug 88 grains
Winchester "Super X" slug 88 grains


This weak caliber is not really a decent self defense round, even when loaded with slugs. Never use birdshot.

Note that it says "never use birdshot". No.7 is birdshot, btw.

I use #7 "birdshot" in mine. It shreds flesh at very close range. As I said, it will penetrate a few inches into a man, shredding his flesh, causing unimaginable beeding and quick death. You might like to know that a .22 to the stomach can bleed a man to death internally in minutes. A policeman in my city died that way a few months ago. He caught a burgalar, a gunfight ensued, the cop took a bullet to the gut. He was dead before the ambulance arived 20 minutes later.

If you shoot someone in the chest with birdshot at very close range, such as in your home, it will put 70-200 small holes in their lungs. The impact will be like being hit in the chest with a big club, knocking the air from their lungs instantly. They will fall to the floor. They will gasp and spit blood. They will be dead in seconds to a few minutes. If the pelets hit the heart, they might be dead virtually instantly. So now you know why birdshot is devestatiing at near PB range! :wink:

Some more regarding the use of birdshot for self-defence:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs. Although birdshot can destroy a great volume of tissue at close range, the permanent crush cavity is usually less than 6 inches deep, and this is not deep enough to reliably include the heart or great blood vessels of the abdomen. A gruesome, shallow wound in the torso does not guarantee a quick stop, especially if the bad guy is chemically intoxicated or psychotic. If the tissue crushed by the pellets does not include a vital cardiovascular structure there's no reason for it to be an effective wound.

I dissagree with that author. At 10 paces or less, a .410 with birdshot will kill a man very quickly. The impact alone is going to knock the air from his lungs. A slug might hill instantly if it hits a vital organ, but birdshot will devestate a man at 7 paces. That is a fact. At 5 paces, it would likely leave a hole in a man's chest 6 inches deep and 2-3 inches wide, taking bone and everything in the path with it, creating a caver that you could place a few golf balss into.

THE PATTERN OF A .410 WITH FULL CHOKE AT 5 PACES IS ABOUT 3-5 INCHES IN DIAMETER. Let that sink in. :wink:

Have you ever shot a .410 3" mag with birdshot at a tree the diameter of your clalf at 5 paces? I have. I did it when I was 15 years old. It shreded the wood half-way through the tree, leaving a hole the size of a golf ball.

Let's recap:

A .410 is devestating at near PB range.

A .22 LR is capable of passing completely through a man if it does not hit bone.

A 9mm may have a muzzle velocity of 700-1000 fps (depending on the ammunition).

You are learning!

[Man of Stoat]

Hollowpoint is designed NOT to over-penetrate. It is designed to exapand and impart its full energy into the target and not come out the other side. .22lr hollowpoint in particular is designed to stop dead in a rabbit. What makes you think that a .22LR hollowpoint that will not go through a rabbit will pass through a human???

When did I say that a .22 hollowpoint will pass through a man? I said a .22 LR might pass through a man. But yes, I have it loaded with Stinger hollowpoint high velocity rounds. I'd rather do damage than go completely through someone.


You said it here: http://www.gamingforums.com/showpost.php?p=1133673&postcount=82
The weapon I am currently using for self defense and keep loaded within 24" of my bed is a Colt .22 revolver made in 1974 with a 9 1/2" barrel and hallowpoints. Not very big calibre, but whith such a barrel and HP's, it will expand to the size of a dime and has the velocity to pass through the victim and then through my wall after that. I feel pretty safe.

QED

The box of 9mm Para that I have in my hand is 124gn FMJ Magtech, and has a muzzle velocity of 1109fps from a 4" test barrel. This gives a muzzle energy of 339ft-lb and an IPSC power factor of 137.5. Dunno what 9mm you have that's only doing 700-1000fps. Guess i'll add that to the lexicon ;)

Not all 9mm cartiges are equal, you know. Look at this page at the Firearms Tactical Institute. You will find 9mm catridges with muzzle velocities of 864-1320 fps. Your is rated at somewhere in the middle as velocity is concerened. Cheap ammo from eastern countries can have velocities as low as 700-800 fps. I do not recommend such crap ammunition, however.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm

You said that 9mm Para has velocities in the range 700-1000fps. I provided examples which were above this range. Thus your range is incorrect. Yes, 147gn ammo (forgot to look at that, cos I don't use it - my Pardini didn't like it). Winchester Ranger Talon (864fps from 3.5"bbl), and Federal Hydroshock (935fps from 4.25"bbl) for instance. These 2 cartridges from these 2 bbls still have power factors and MEs of 127kgnfps/243ft-lb and 137kgnfps/285ft-lb. Still significantly more powerful on both a momentum and energy basis. It should also be noted that these are high-quality specialist munitions designed for controlled expansion and low risk of over-penetration in human targets. Low velocity does not equal crap ammunition - I've used some extremely crap 7.62x54R which had high pressures and velocities right on the limit of what would be safe.


CCI Stinger .22lr, 32gn, approx. vel. from a 6" handgun barrel = 1395fps (Stinger is VERY fast .22lr ammunition). This gives a pf of 44.6 and a ME of 138 ft-lb. Different ballpark.

[quote]
I dissagree with that author. At 10 paces or less, a .410 with birdshot will kill a man very quickly. The impact alone is going to knock the air from his lungs. A slug might hill instantly if it hits a vital organ, but birdshot will devestate a man at 7 paces. That is a fact. At 5 paces, it would likely leave a hole in a man's chest 6 inches deep and 2-3 inches wide, taking bone and everything in the path with it, creating a caver that you could place a few golf balss into.


And you know this...um... how? The fact that you are willing to stake your life on it is....um.... interesting


THE PATTERN OF A .410 WITH FULL CHOKE AT 5 PACES IS ABOUT 3-5 INCHES IN DIAMETER. Let that sink in. :wink:

Have you ever shot a .410 3" mag with birdshot at a tree the diameter of your clalf at 5 paces? I have. I did it when I was 15 years old. It shreded the wood half-way through the tree, leaving a hole the size of a golf ball.

Not with a .410, but I've shot a 2.75" 12G at a bowling pin from about 3 metres and it did no such thing. And more recently than when I was 15 :D


Let's recap:

A .410 is devestating at near PB range.

A .22 LR is capable of passing completely through a man if it does not hit bone.


The usual unsupported statements disagreeing with things which were posted.


A 9mm may have a muzzle velocity of 700-1000 fps (depending on the ammunition).


yes, it can, but it still has a PF and ME in a different ballpark from .22LR.


You are learning!

The usual condescending bs.

[IRONMAN]

When did I say that a .22 hollowpoint will pass through a man? I said a .22 LR might pass through a man. But yes, I have it loaded with Stinger hollowpoint high velocity rounds. I'd rather do damage than go completely through someone.


You said it here: http://www.gamingforums.com/showpost.php?p=1133673&postcount=82

You blunder yet again Stoat. I said the weapon had the velocity to pass through a man. I did not say hollowpoints would. You are trying to put words into my mouth.

You said that 9mm Para has velocities in the range 700-1000fps. I provided examples which were above this range. Thus your range is incorrect.

Not at all. What I quoted is within the range of velocities for 9mm. I did not say a 9mm has velocities of 500 fps, or 1600 fps. Again, you are trying to twist my words. Wrong again patentofficeclerk.

Low velocity does not equal crap ammunition -

Sure it is. It's crap. Cheap oriental ammo with 650-800 fps MV is crap alright. Weapons affectionados do not use low velocity ammo. If you want to stop a man with a bullet (as opposed to birdshot from a .410, which is far more devestating than a 9mm, for example) you do not want the 9mm round, which is a low velocity weapon to begin with, to have poor penetration.

CCI Stinger .22lr, 32gn, approx. vel. from a 6" handgun barrel = 1395fps (Stinger is VERY fast .22lr ammunition). This gives a pf of 44.6 and a ME of 138 ft-lb. Different ballpark.


I dissagree with that author. At 10 paces or less, a .410 with birdshot will kill a man very quickly. The impact alone is going to knock the air from his lungs. A slug might hill instantly if it hits a vital organ, but birdshot will devestate a man at 7 paces. That is a fact. At 5 paces, it would likely leave a hole in a man's chest 6 inches deep and 2-3 inches wide, taking bone and everything in the path with it, creating a caver that you could place a few golf balss into.


And you know this...um... how? The fact that you are willing to stake your life on it is....um.... interesting

Stoat, my next comment explians this. :lol:


THE PATTERN OF A .410 WITH FULL CHOKE AT 5 PACES IS ABOUT 3-5 INCHES IN DIAMETER. Let that sink in. :wink:

Have you ever shot a .410 3" mag with birdshot at a tree the diameter of your clalf at 5 paces? I have. I did it when I was 15 years old. It shreded the wood half-way through the tree, leaving a hole the size of a golf ball.

Not with a .410, but I've shot a 2.75" 12G at a bowling pin from about 3 metres and it did no such thing. And more recently than when I was 15 :D


Well, then you have no experience with the little .410 and you don't know what it is capable of. Stoat, you are missing out on something here. I am speaking from experience, not from what others say. You see, I own a .410. I have shot many cases of ammunition with it. I have used it to hunt ducks, squirrels, deer, and just shot things to pieces with it for fun, like an abandoned automobile. I know precicely what it will do to human flesh at near PB range. It will make a relatively clean, circular hole the size of a billiard ball in a 55 gal. oil drum at 5 paces too. And trust me, the metal of such a drum is many, many times tougher than human flesh my boy.

A .410 with birdshot will kill any man on Earth with 1 shot to the chest at 7 paces. That is a fact. It is, as I said, devestating. :wink:


A .410 is devestating at near PB range.

A .22 LR is capable of passing completely through a man if it does not hit bone.


The usual unsupported statements disagreeing with things which were posted.

No, just commets based on experience, which you have none of with either .22 or .410.


A 9mm may have a muzzle velocity of 700-1000 fps (depending on the ammunition).


yes, it can, but it still has a PF and ME in a different ballpark from .22LR.


You just said this was incorrect. Staot, if you want to argue with someone, at least know what you think becore trying to prove someone wrong.

You are learning!

EDITED TO CORRECT CODES

[IRONMAN]

So, to recap:

A .22 LR might pass through a man at near PB range.

A .410 with birdshot is devestating at near PB range.

700-1000 fps MV is not uncommon for 9mm Parabellum ammunition.

Cheap ammo is crap.

Now Stoat, if you think any of this is false, please, feel free to provide an argument based on your personal experience with these weapons that differs.

[Man of Stoat]

Right. We've got to the stage where Tinwalt is now saying that he didn't say things which he clearly did (ref. capabilities of .22lr HP), and that a quoted range for the velocity of 9mm Para actually means something different (i.e. it's a range but no the complete range) to what it originally meat, and selectively quoting, and making the same unsupported assertion again and again and again and again and again and again.

This is when it gets boring and repetitive. I thus agree with Crab_To_Be in the other thread who reckons you're just trolling.

[IRONMAN]

Right. We've got to the stage where Tinwalt is now saying that he didn't say things which he clearly did (ref. capabilities of .22lr HP), and that a quoted range for the velocity of 9mm Para actually means something different (i.e. it's a range but no the complete range) to what it originally meat, and selectively quoting, and making the same unsupported assertion again and again and again and again and again and again.

This is when it gets boring and repetitive. I thus agree with Crab_To_Be in the other thread who reckons you're just trolling.

Again, patentofficeclerk, I did not say a hollowpoint will pass through a man. Although, it certainly is possible, if it does not hit bone. Not likely but possible.

I did not say the MV range of 9mm was limited to 1000 fps.

I realize that you are pissed because you so consistently try to argue with me specifically about almost everything I say and have yet to be correct about a single flucking thing that you start an argument with me about.

It is your last defence after having your arguments, which are based on nonexistant information or statements that were never made, shot down. However, there should be at least some reality to your arguments.

It is you who troll kiddo. You follow me around to start arguments. If I posted in a thread that has been inactive for months something that waas my opinion, there you would be, my little groupie, trailing after to start an argument, even if based of falsehoods and an attempt to twist my words into things I have not said. You have done it countless times. No matter where I post, there you are, because you have me on your forum "radar", and get notifications about every thread that I post in, because you do searches for my user name and make links and such. I am one of your hobbies. It's flattering that you think what I say is so worthy of discussion, but debate with me on more realistic grounds, and not from your emotions. This is a losing means of approach to debate.

You are a troll.

You have not been able to provide anything sensible or factual to dispute anything I have ever said, despite your consistent and habitual attempts. I don't mind debating, but it is not worthwhile for you if you:

1. Try to twist my words to imply that I have said things that I have not, thereby basing entire arguments an nonexistant statements.

2. Do it out of compulsion.

3. Misunderstand a simple, 8-10 word sentance that I write, and therefore start an argument based on what you though it said, and without recanting your simple error so that it can be overlooked without further discussion, you persist in building an argument based upon something that does not exist that lasts for 2-5 pages.

Please fix these discrepancies before starting your next argument with me.

EDITED FOR TYPO

[Crab_to_be]

Thread Locked.

Too much trolling. Read through the thread and see if you can work out who is the troll. I'll give you a clue - one has taken a clear stance, the other keeps changing what he says and contradicting the other just to provoke argument. If you still can't get it, here's a subliminal clue: TROLLINGWALT.

Edited to add:

Thread now unlocked. You've had a night to calm down, so play nice.

[PzKpfw VI Tiger]

Oh oh! I know! :Raises hand: Ironman? :shock:

[Man of Stoat]

IMPORTANT NOTE:

Following IRONMAN's "advice" in this thread could, at worst, get you killed.

Almost as bad, it could encourage you to go shooting with high-velocity (cos he says that high-vel = high quality) ammo which happens to be crap and, has a random under- or over-loaded cartridge which blows your wpn to pieces. At best, it will destroy your shooting pleasure as you buy the highest velocity ammo on the market, suffer higher recoil, higher barrel and other critical wear.

It is worth noting that an awful lot of ammo in general is crap. In my experience, the crap tends to be fairly high-velocity, so that velocity variations (which are the real measure of quality, not muzzle-velocity per se) will not impede the functioning of a self-loading mechanism.

His comment that wpn afficionados don't use low-velocty ammo is plain wrong - we try to use the lowest velocity that we can get away with. This reduces recoil, reduces barrel wear, and aids accuracy. You won't see someone in a serious revolver competition shooting 125gn .357 MAG when 148gn .38spl wadcutter loaded as slow as is accurate is permitted. You will also discover that projectile mass (which he discounts as irrelevant at all stages) has a very large effect on velocity - e.g Magtech 9mm Para has the following loadings:

95gn JSP - 1345fps, 380ftlb, 128kgnfps (IPSC power factor)
115gn FMJ - 1135fps, 330ftlb, 131kgnfps
115gn JHP - 1155fps, 340ftlb, 133kgnfps
124gn FMJ - 1109fps, 339ftlb, 138kgnfps
124gn LRN - 1109fps, 339ftlb, 138kgnfps
147gn FMJ - 990fps, 320ftlb, 146kgnfps
147gn JHP - 990fps, 320ftlb, 146kgnfps

Does this mean that the 147gn is lower quality and crap? NO! They all come from the same mfg and are all of the same quality!

Serious competitive .22lr shooters (prone & 3-position, 25m-100m) use subsonic ammunition - this is because the higher velocity supersonic ammunition experiences buffetting on the way to the target when it goes back through the sound barrier. It also gives higher recoil. These both are detrimental to accuracy. For best accuracy, you must keep your rifle or pistol ammunition either sub- or super-sonic all the way to the target. The top performing ammo in world for precision (IIRC) is Eley Tenex EPS - and it is subsonic. This, according to TINWALT, would make it crap (because he says that low velocity = low quality), and the olympic shooters should be shooting high-velocity ammunition instead. I do believe that in whatever world he lives in, the normal rules of physics do not apply.

In the case of .22lr, the following brands I have used are crap:

High velocity:
Federal American Eagle
Remington Thunderbolt
CCI Blazer

Low velocity:
One batch of Eley Club

The following are good:

High:
CCI Minimag
CCI Stinger
Winchester Wildcat

Low:
SK Magazine, Standard, Pistol
Most Eley (Target, Club,
Aguila

In the realms of 9mm, Cuts assures me that British Mk2z is EXTREMELY hot (i.e. high velocity) and pretty crap.

Although it is quite clear that he doesn't have a clue, we need to rebut every single one of the misguided, ill-considered and potentially downright dangerous things he says with regard to firearms, before someone dim and impressionable acts on them and gets himself hurt.

[DerMann]

If anyone ever broke into my house, I'd do one of two things:

1) Get my Webley, and fire at their chest. If they are wearing body armor, the force from the round will at least knock them over.

2) Grab my Mauser and load 10 shots, fire at their chest. Chances are, it'll penetrate. If I miss, the sound from the shot will have disoriented them, and I'd lunge at them with the bayonet.

However, when I get older and get the money, I'd like to buy a .577 Revolver for personal defense.

http://www.firearmsmuseum.org.au/images/T2047a.jpg

[Ale]

If anyone ever broke into my house, I'd do one of two things:

1) Get my Webley, and fire at their chest. If they are wearing body armor, the force from the round will at least knock them over.

2) Grab my Mauser and load 10 shots, fire at their chest. Chances are, it'll penetrate. If I miss, the sound from the shot will have disoriented them, and I'd lunge at them with the bayonet.

However, when I get older and get the money, I'd like to buy a .577 Revolver for personal defense.

http://www.firearmsmuseum.org.au/images/T2047a.jpg


I don't wish to piss all over your bonfire...but shooting a gun at someone will not 'knock them over' except possibly with surprise. A key rule of physics here:

"Every action has an equal and opposite reaction"

The amount of energy carried by the bullets you fire is the same as the amount of energy carried by the rifle/pistol as it recoils. The much much greater weight of the rifle/pistol compared to the bullet means that this energy is used pushing a heavier item much more slowly, so it does not penetrate or do any damage.

If being hit by a bullet actually knocked people over, then firing that bullet would also knock you over. If you want more proof, shoot something roughly the same weight as human with your gun and see if it falls over.

As to Ironman and his .410 and 22 pistol, I suggest you go out and get some real world firearms experience, as you are talking utter balls. :roll: :lol:

[Firefly]

Good point, but Im sure everyone who is shot stands perfectly still and says, hey, that little bullet may have entered my body but the laws of Physics say..........

Unless of course your meaning hitting the body armour?

People feel pain and shock, and get wounded and loose blood and have vital organs hit, and their reactions to being hit are varied to say the least.

Editted to add, ever heard of Kinetic Energy?

[Man of Stoat]

Editted to add, ever heard of Kinetic Energy?

Momentum is more important - in an inelastic collision between 2 objects (in this case a bullet and a person), it it momentum which is conserved - energy is not.