Could the Germans Repel the Assault on Berlin?

[Gen. JoshM]

I voted yes. In my opinion (remember just an opinion), if Hitler would have spent more time in his defenses surrounding the city instead of trying to create city "fortresses" elsewhere and attempting to regain the Danube River, they could of had a fighting chance.
It would of been a tough proposition to dislodge his troops from the western front (with the allies on the river Elbe), but with 300,000 or 400,000 troops (after all the Russian casualty figure was much higher than the Wehrmaut on this front) from the Twelth and Ninth German army to fall back sooner, and have the Voltzstorm (i think that is how you spell it), to instead of waiting for the inevitable, to create more, and more efficient, baracades.
Though I don't believe they would be able to win the war outright at this point, they could at least of hold off the inevitable by a considerable time. After all, with over 4,000,000 in Berlin, conscription could of taken place on a wider scale.
After all, Moscow seemed to be a hopeless cause in 1941...

[Man of Stoat]

No, no question - by the time of the Battle of Berlin, they were well spent. Industry destroyed, and Volksturm units armed with a variety of cobbled-together wpns. They put up a hell of a fight under the circumstances, but it was just a matter of time.

[Walther]

No way. Most Germans by this time had simply enough of the war and were quite ready to surrender. The were no stocks of weapons and ammo left, in Berlin the Germans used anything they could lay their hands on, like Italian and Czech grenades, captured rifles etc.. The end was extended by a few weeks, which cost ten thousands of lifes, but it was inevitable.

Jan

[Gen. JoshM]

Yes, they were tired, but I do believe had the Twelfth and Ninth Army reached Berlin, they could push back the early stages of the Russian assault. Though, they would not be able to hold back the inevitable, it might of made a more interesting fight...

[Man of Stoat]

Yes, they were tired, but I do believe had the Twelfth and Ninth Army reached Berlin, they could push back the early stages of the Russian assault. Though, they would not be able to hold back the inevitable, it might of made a more interesting fight...

By "more interesting fight", do you mean the battle being prolonged for a number of days leading to even more deaths? I'm sure it wouldn't have been more interesting for those involved, or those civilians trapped for longer in Berlin.

[Walther]

Yes, they were tired, but I do believe had the Twelfth and Ninth Army reached Berlin, they could push back the early stages of the Russian assault. Though, they would not be able to hold back the inevitable, it might of made a more interesting fight...

Actually by then the civilians just wanted to have the whole thing over. The general opinion then was that whatever might come would be better than the continuation of the battle.

Jan

[Voluntary Escaper]

The Twelfth and Ninth Armies were more interested (with good reason) in fighting westwards to surrender to US/British forces.

Himmler's Army Group Vistula was a joke (not to those who fought and died) as it was a paper-based formation and a corps at best.

The war in Europe was lost for the Germans from the minute that the Allied Expeditionary Force gained a foothold in Normandy opening up two fronts in the war (three if you include Italy). It could also be convincingly argued that the Red Army alone may have been able to reach Berlin. In any case, from the perspective on the eastern front, Berlin and the war were lost when the Russians crossed the Vistula.

[Gen. JoshM]

:lol: This is all hypothetical....had the Twelfth and Ninth Army NOT of been so entangled with the Western Allies. And yes, I know, the Germans would eventually lose, but I'm talking about the first assault. Stalin was prepared for a vicious, long, and drawn out battle, and that is why he sent so many troop coverage there. I'm saying if the men were available and such.

[Walther]

I don't know if I can find the source again, but the western Allies had a backup plan should the Soviet assault on Berlin fail. It was called "Operation Eclipse" and consisted of an airdrop of paratroopers of the 82nd and 101st American airborne divisions on Tempelhof and Gatow airfield of Berlin. As far as I remember the British Airbourne had a drop zone as well. The idea was to use the paratroopers to secure the airfields, which would then be used to fly gliders with heavy equipment and more troops in. Due to the fast collapse of the reich it got scrubbed.

Jan

[Voluntary Escaper]

The only realistic alternatives to the Russian assault on Berlin would have been if Jodl and Keitel had been sacked months before and replaced by capable generals, or if Hitler had committed suicide earlier. In the former case, it may have been possible to delay the Russians and engineer a capitulation to the western Allies. In the latter case, a sensible leader (Speer is the only one who would meet this vital requirement) may have decided to surrender before the commencement of the Russian assault, sparing a lot of people from death and misery.

[JoseFrancis]

I don't know if I can find the source again, but the western Allies had a backup plan should the Soviet assault on Berlin fail. It was called "Operation Eclipse" and consisted of an airdrop of paratroopers of the 82nd and 101st American airborne divisions on Tempelhof and Gatow airfield of Berlin. As far as I remember the British Airbourne had a drop zone as well. The idea was to use the paratroopers to secure the airfields, which would then be used to fly gliders with heavy equipment and more troops in. Due to the fast collapse of the reich it got scrubbed.

Jan

Do you have any links about this?
I'm quite interested to learn more. :P

...and I always wondered what would happen if the Western Allies took Berlin instead of the Popovs.
Could the operation have far more easier success than the Russians due to the willingness of surrendering to the western allies?
I believe many people from Germany including Goebbels was hoping for the Americans and British to "realize their errors" and "save them from the Bolshevik hordes".
This would surely mean a far less opposition.

Ah, it's too bad East Berliners faced the consequences for several decades.

[Dani]

I don't know if I can find the source again, but the western Allies had a backup plan should the Soviet assault on Berlin fail. It was called "Operation Eclipse" and consisted of an airdrop of paratroopers of the 82nd and 101st American airborne divisions on Tempelhof and Gatow airfield of Berlin. As far as I remember the British Airbourne had a drop zone as well. The idea was to use the paratroopers to secure the airfields, which would then be used to fly gliders with heavy equipment and more troops in. Due to the fast collapse of the reich it got scrubbed.
Jan
Do you have any links about this?
I'm quite interested to learn more. :P


Check these:
http://www.thehistorynet.com/wwii/blairbornebridge/

http://www.stormingmedia.us/12/1263/A126324.html

[Dani]

Quoted from the first link:
For some time before Allied forces reached the Rhine, Allied Supreme Commander Dwight D. Eisenhower's headquarters had been working on a plan called Operation Eclipse. It was a daring plan, including an airborne assault on Berlin itself. Before it could be put into action, however, Montgomery's Twenty-first Army Group would have to cross the Rhine in the north, trapping the Germans between his forces and those of Hodges and Patton driving in from the south. With the enemy caught in that vise, Eisenhower figured the time would be ripe for a daring operation like Eclipse, which could probably end the war.
....
As the Allied forces drove into Germany, the situation rapidly began to change, and several carefully planned airborne operations were scrubbed. A planned airdrop of the 13th Airborne Division near Worms, Germany, was canceled. Finally, Operation Eclipse, the planned airborne assault on Berlin that had necessitated Montgomery's Rhine crossing, was also canceled, allowing the Soviets the honor and cost of being first into the German capital.
End quote. :D

[Firefly]

Too little too late for the Germans, its all well and good ordering paper armies around a ficticious map, but the reality was that units were not anywhere near up to strength, there was no fuel and little ammo etc.

[Pavy]

i belive that the germans could have done it.
its all a matter of tactics, how they set up their defences, anti tank or other wise.

[JoseFrancis]

i belive that the germans could have done it.
its all a matter of tactics, how they set up their defences, anti tank or other wise.

An army needs more than arrows in their maps.
For example, an army needs an army, something that the Germans didn't have by April '45 (Berlin).. :wink:

Oh and and a army consists more than kiddies with swiss knives.

[Commando Jordovski]

If the Germans had successfully defended Berlin from the Allies, wasn't the english going to drop a chemical bomb on germany so bad that you couldnt live there for the next thousand years...
The english tested the chemical bomb on a island of the coast of Ireland and it still today is inhabitable.

I forget the name of the bomb.

[Man of Stoat]

Err, no. We tested anthrax as a weapon on an island off the coast of Scotland in the 1950s, IIRC. Lots of sheep got anthrax & died. It's this one that's uninhabitable now.

[Firefly]

If the Germans had successfully defended Berlin from the Allies, wasn't the english going to drop a chemical bomb on germany so bad that you couldnt live there for the next thousand years...
The english tested the chemical bomb on a island of the coast of Ireland and it still today is inhabitable.

I forget the name of the bomb.


Where do you get all this stuff from?

[Man of Stoat]

If the Germans had successfully defended Berlin from the Allies, wasn't the english going to drop a chemical bomb on germany so bad that you couldnt live there for the next thousand years...
The english tested the chemical bomb on a island of the coast of Ireland and it still today is inhabitable.

I forget the name of the bomb.


Where do you get all this stuff from?

Must be the same place a certain ferrous chap gets his "information" from :twisted:

[Commando Jordovski]

If the Germans had successfully defended Berlin from the Allies, wasn't the english going to drop a chemical bomb on germany so bad that you couldnt live there for the next thousand years...
The english tested the chemical bomb on a island of the coast of Ireland and it still today is inhabitable.

I forget the name of the bomb.


Where do you get all this stuff from?

Must be the same place a certain ferrous chap gets his "information" from :twisted:

Ferrous chap.. :?
Well first of all man of stoat i wasnt sure on what bomb they were dropping, you didn't have to be an idiot about it anyway, second of all , firefly, i get my information from all over, i.e veterans from WW2, National geographic & discovery channels, Studying, and i can still remember alot of things my father told me about WW2.
If you want to differ with what i say thats fine you may be right sometimes, but you dont have to be rude.

[Firefly]

Im not being rude Im being serious. In all my time reading nat Geo and watching the History and Military channels and reading literally hundreds of books on WW2, I have never seen or read any reference to a chemical bomb that would make Germany uninhabitable for 1000 years?

Do you even imagine the scale of such a weapon? What Chemical was to be used? How many bombers would it require? What were the targets? How wuld it affect neighboring countries? How would it affect the UK?

Sorry to sound rude. But if you think about it, its totally preposterous.

[Hosenfield]

No way the assault on Berlin could've been stopped. With 1.6 million russian troops with more than 6000 tanks moving in...

i think that chemical bomb is B.S.

Well, germany had nerve gas, but even nerve gas isn't as bad as the English superweapon.

This "chemical bomb" seems worse then a nuclear bomb.

[Commando Jordovski]

Im not being rude Im being serious. In all my time reading nat Geo and watching the History and Military channels and reading literally hundreds of books on WW2, I have never seen or read any reference to a chemical bomb that would make Germany uninhabitable for 1000 years?

Do you even imagine the scale of such a weapon? What Chemical was to be used? How many bombers would it require? What were the targets? How wuld it affect neighboring countries? How would it affect the UK?

Sorry to sound rude. But if you think about it, its totally preposterous.

ok no worries mate, but that bomb i was talking about i wasn't 100% sure about thats why i was asking about it, man of stoat said it was anthrax and i think hes right.

[Commando Jordovski]

No way the assault on Berlin could've been stopped. With 1.6 million russian troops with more than 6000 tanks moving in...

i think that chemical bomb is B.S.

Well, germany had nerve gas, but even nerve gas isn't as bad as the English superweapon.

This "chemical bomb" seems worse then a nuclear bomb.

The anthrax bomb- implied by man of stoat, would be so horrendous that human life could not live there for a long time, a nuclear bomb, thats totally irrelevant, human life can live possibly 40+ years after the incident.

[Man of Stoat]

The anthrax bomb- implied by man of stoat, would be so horrendous that human life could not live there for a long time, a nuclear bomb, thats totally irrelevant, human life can live possibly 40+ years after the incident.

Err, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were re-inhabited relatively quickly after the bombs were dropped...

And they reckon that the anthrax-infected island is reinhabitable now (IIRC) 50 years after the incident.

[Commando Jordovski]

The anthrax bomb- implied by man of stoat, would be so horrendous that human life could not live there for a long time, a nuclear bomb, thats totally irrelevant, human life can live possibly 40+ years after the incident.

Err, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were re-inhabited relatively quickly after the bombs were dropped...

And they reckon that the anthrax-infected island is reinhabitable now (IIRC) 50 years after the incident.

Really??, that would suprise me , it depends how much they dropped on the island, where did you hear that man of stoat ?

[1000ydstare]

This question is bonk.

Obviously they couldn't cos they didn't.

You try defending a large metropolitan area with nothing more than grandads and grandchildren.

It was ENDEX from the moment the two allied sides (Russian on East, Everyone else on West) met.

[1000ydstare]

Have done some research about this "bomb".

The British had no chemical or biological plans during any part of WW2. There only efforts in this area was defence.

The Germans only ever used Chemical weapons on Eastern Europe. Although mainly at the start.

The Nuclear weapons from America (the manhatten project) would not have been ready for Berlin. So there would have had to have been a spectacularly bloody standoff as a ring of troops would have had to stay around Berlin, who also would have been in the fireing line had any bomb of this magnitude been dropped.

As mentioned, if a persistant, weapon was used and iradiated/infected Berlin for "years" then all the countries around would also have got a bit, every time the winds changed!!!

Dropping this kind of weapon in to the middle of Europe is a no brainer.

Besides the RAF and other allied air forces were, by this point, practically a conveyer belt over targets, dropping a tonnage of explosives that if added up would be similar to a Nukes yield anyway.

[Hanz Lutz]

Whatever no one can stop russians to take it berlin ,germany was lose war 1944 ,thats been obvious they dont want to accept capitulacion and stop the war ,and save millions lifes ,becouse in this two year 1944-45 died meny peoples then is last three .

[1000ydstare]

That shows what happens if you elect a complete nincompoop!!!![/img]

[Hanz Lutz]

Big signature and you are sergeant well done.

[1000ydstare]

Danke.

[StalingradK]

No, No, No, No and No, to even stand a chance in a War, you need to have air superiority!

[Sturmtruppen]

No, No, No, No and No, to even stand a chance in a War, you need to have air superiority!
specially in modern times

[Hosenfield]

the answer to this is no.
at least according to my grandfather.
He got command of an understrength company of 120 panzergrenadiers with a mob of hitlerjugend in berlin

the only way he said that the attack on berlin could have been halted, for at least a short while, if they somehow managed to destroy almost every russian tank that was sent in with panzerfausts.

waffen-ss panzers were placed in front of certain streets and fired with good effect until they ran out of petrol and ammo, and then were abandoned.

so with no tanks and petrol, the only thing left was panzerfausten.

before the end, and determined not to die in berlin or a gulag, him and his men went against orders and pulled out of berlin at night. his force even killed some ss men and military police that tried to stop him. ...

to him, military police and gestapo deserved to die.

long story short, he made it to allied controlled germany, but only with handful of men and boys.

[Sturmtruppen]

mate,the aircraft is totally necesary,as the artillery was in times of first world war,the bombers actue as fast air artillery literally "cleaning" the designed are,the infantry have the job of finishing the cleaning,also the tanks support infantry.
the fighters are necesary since the bombers are in the battlefield,and not always the infantry has anti aircraft weapons,and the latest times,this weapons have been unnefective,the aircrafts are now a totally improvement,they were necesary since they were used as combat unit.

the air superiority is necesary,and rules the modern battlefield.

[Hosenfield]

from what i've read and talked to my grandfather about his experences, he said that tactical air bombing in 1940s wasn't as great a threat as people think.

Most of the bombs missed, and the few that actually landed into enemy positions didn't do that much damage.

artillery was much greater threat. it was more accurate and continuous.

what the germans feared were the allied fighter bombers. while they were gennerally ineffective against tanks, they could tear up soft-skinned vehicles with ease. it was more the damage that was done to fuel and supply trucks that really hindered the germans.

[Sturmtruppen]

from what i've read and talked to my grandfather about his experences, he said that tactical air bombing in 1940s wasn't as great a threat as people think.

Most of the bombs missed, and the few that actually landed into enemy positions didn't do that much damage.

artillery was much greater threat. it was more accurate and continuous.

what the germans feared were the allied fighter bombers. while they were gennerally ineffective against tanks, they could tear up soft-skinned vehicles with ease. it was more the damage that was done to fuel and supply trucks that really hindered the germans.
you don't find the luftwaffle important?.

the artillery was more vulnerable in areas without anti-aircraft,and you will find the aircraft was more important than artillery.

[Hosenfield]

well, since this thread is talking about the battle of berlin, the presense of the luftwaffe was nil. even worse then in normandy, where the luftwaffe had only enough fuel to send 400 planes into the sky.


and, im comparing tactical bombing vs heavy artillery. artillery is a greater threat.

[Sturmtruppen]

well,i was out off topic.

the aircraft is,was and will be important for the rest of the history.
(btw,bombers are better,why do you think aircrafts have their own force?,and artillery belongs to army)

let's continue and stay on topic.

[Hosenfield]

i'm talking about ww2 erwin. carpet-bombing enemy positions wasn't that effective. besides being very obvious to the human eye, a fleet of bombers often bomb their own men!

massive artillery supremacy can reck havoc on attacks/defensive operations and stop your own batteries with counter-battery fire.

[StalingradK]

On the Eighth day god said, let there be tactical bombers, and the mosquito was made.

[Commando Jordovski]

On the Eighth day god said, let there be tactical bombers, and the mosquito was made.

haha, you make that up mate ?

[Hanz Lutz]

Off corse you not think that is god say ,dont you. :wink:

[PzKpfw VI Tiger]

On the Eighth day god said, let there be tactical bombers, and the mosquito was made.

lol good one :lol:

[PzKpfw VI Tiger]

Anyway, once again, back on topic - No, Germany couldn't have repelled the assault on Berlin for 2 reasons

1) as mentioned earlier, you need Air Supremacy over an area to control it, and
2) when you have Russian artillery knocking at your door and Russian soldiers and tanks on every street, your pretty much screwed

[ww2fanatic1944]

there is no way the germans cudve repelled the attack...the battle of the bulge was there last attempt at salvaging the war, they knew that they couldnt defend Berlin after losing the battle of the bulge.

both the americans and russians were producing more soliders, tanks, artillery, etc then ever before. then they both converged on berlin. it was a lost cause.

maybe if the germans hadnt started the battle of the bulge, and foritifed berlin more they couldve held off the capture of berlin at least momentarilly.

[Hosenfield]

the battle of the bulge is not the last attempt to salvage the war. thats what a lot of american textbooks say. Operation Spring awakening is the last german offensive of the war, it took place on the eastern front. its failure helped the russians reach berlin.

the bulge ended in jan 1945. It was costly to both sides though. both sides lost similiar amounts of men and tanks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_bulge

while it is not shown in this website, the americans also had a lot of damaged tanks. the bulge probably, by most estimates, slowed down the american advance for 2 weeks.

[festamus]

Surely the best thing the German leadership could have done for the German people is leave the Western front undefended and put *EVERYTHING* on the Eastern front... But, I suppose as we discussed in the thread about crazy super weapons, they just couldn't admit to themselves that the writing was on the wall.

[Hosenfield]

well, most of the german army was in russia for the whole war. But germany had to put at least 10-20 percent of her troops in the west, north africa, and italian fronts.

[festamus]

But my point is that they'd have been better off in late 44 to stop opposing the Western allies all together and keep the Soviets out.

[Crab_to_be]

well, most of the german army was in russia for the whole war. But germany had to put at least 10-20 percent of her troops in the west, north africa, and italian fronts.

Eh? Surely it wasn't in Russia until 1941?

[festamus]

You KNOW what he meant Crab, now stop being so picky.

[Hosenfield]

yeah, of course, my mistake. 1941-1945 , most of the german army was in russia.

but, festamus, what would happen after the landings? with a free ride to germany, more problems fro the germans would emerge.

[festamus]

Not after the landings but late 1944 when it was clearly a matter of time on both fronts, especially the East. Surely the Germans would have realised that the Western allies were far preferable occupiers?

[Hanz Lutz]

Anyway, once again, back on topic - No, Germany couldn't have repelled the assault on Berlin for 2 reasons

1) as mentioned earlier, you need Air Supremacy over an area to control it, and
2) when you have Russian artillery knocking at your door and Russian soldiers and tanks on every street, your pretty much screwed

I agree no way to stop russians ,they can 1941 if they not attack .

[1000ydstare]

Festamus is trying to say that if the Germans had realised they were going to lose the war, say in 1944, they should have put as effort in to holding the Russians off in the East.

If this had happened then Germany would, maybe, not have been split up as it was, as the Allied would have taken most of it.

[Walther]

The Nazis tried to do two attempts to stop the Russians after they crossed the Oder river (or Odra in Polish). The first was at the Seelower Höhen, east of Berlin, and the last attempt was to use the rivers and canals in Berlin encircling the city centre as a final line of defense. By then the German military were on their shoestrings. As a university student I had a semestral break job in spring 1989 working for a EOD removal company. We did a systematic search of the Tiergarten park just west of the Brandenburg gate, within a mile of Hitler's Reichstag. The Germans used any weapon or ammunition they could get their hands on. We found Czech and Italian grenades, French machine guns etc..

Jan

[Hanz Lutz]

Yeah in berlin houses must be cleared house by house ,building by building.

Everything is been fire point ,bridges parks ,churchs ,metro .

[Walther]

By this time many Berliners were fed up of the war, but unfortunately flying SS court martials hanged everybody who dared to show a white flag or any man who was outside the frontline without a written order at the next tree as a deserter or traitor.

Actually most fighting in Berlin was done by foreign SS troops (like of the Waffen-SS division Charlemagne or even the British Free Corps), who knew that if Germany lost, they would be handed over to their own governments and tried as traitors.

The SS blew up a Berlin underground tunnel under the Landwehr canal, which was part of the last line of defense, this way flooding a large part of the Berlin underground system, killing thousands of civilians who were using the tunnels as air raid shelters.

Jan

[Hosenfield]

the british frekorps never saw combat. they numbered 30 men...

[1000ydstare]

Beat me to it!!

[Hosenfield]

for the exception of imprisonment/execution, i think the frekorps had a fairly swell time; drinking, shagging, etc.

[1000ydstare]

From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britisches_Freikorps

With the failure of Amery's recruiting efforts, another idea was tried in an attempt to woo POWs into joining the BFC. Given the harsh conditions of POW camps in Germany and the occupied areas, it was decided to form a "holiday camp" for likely recruits from POW camps. Two holiday camps were set up, Special Detachment 999 and Special Detachment 517, both under the umbrella of Stalag IIId, near Berlin. English-speaking guards were used, overseen by a German intelligence officer, who would use the guards as information gatherers. But a Briton was needed as a possible conduit for volunteers and for this duty, Battery Quartermaster Sergeant John Henry Owen Brown of the Royal Artillery was selected.

Brown had been a member of the British Union of Fascists (BUF) before the war, but was also a devout Christian. Captured on the beaches of Dunkirk in May 1940, Brown eventually ended up in a camp at Blechhammer. Given his rank, he was made a foreman of a work detail where he successfully won the confidence of the Germans. With his status, the Germans made him the camp leader of Special Detachment 517.

In reality, Brown had been setting up a black market scheme, smuggling in contraband to give to his men and also to buy off the guards. Later Brown learned the POW message codes created by MI9 and began to operate as (in his words) a "self-made spy". Once he understood his role concerning the "holiday camps", he determined that he was in a unique position to both hinder the formation of this unit and to obtain intelligence — while also making sure the men who came to the camp actually got a holiday.



also their methods of recruitment...

The first group of POWs to be taken to Luckenwalde were mainly from the Italian theatre. One such case was Trooper John Eric Wilson of No.3 Commando which illustrated the techniques used by the camp. Upon arrival, he was stripped, made to watch his uniform get ripped to pieces, and then given a blanket to cover up with. Placed in a cell with just the blanket and fed 250 grams of bread and a pint of cabbage soup, he was only allowed out to empty the waste bucket. After two days like this, he was taken before an "American", who was in fact Scharper. Wilson was asked his rank (about which Wilson lied, saying he was a staff sergeant), name, number, and date of birth, then returned to his cell. Left alone, a "British POW" would come in from time to time, offer cigarettes and conduct idle chit-chat. The end result was that the isolation and the mistreatment led to him holding on to the "POW" who showed kindness to him. When dragged before Scharper some days later and offered the choice of joining the BFC or staying in solitary, it can be understood why Wilson chose the BFC. With this initial success, it was deemed this method would be the gateway to expanding the BFC and in turn, 14 men were made to join. This including men from such esteemed units as the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders and the Long Range Desert Group.

Why they never saw action....

The recruiting drives brought the BFC to a strength of 23 men. This worried Freeman because if the unit reached 30, then the BFC would be incorporated into the SS Wiking Division and sent into action. To prevent this, Freeman drafted a letter, signed by him and 14 other BFC men (mostly newcomers), requesting they be returned to their camps. Freeman and one other instigator sent to a penal stalag on the charge of mutiny on June 20, 1944. Freeman escaped the stalag in November 1944, and reached Soviet lines where he was repatriated in March 1945.

Basically a few nutters who liked the Nazis but were generally incompentent and a bunch of typical Brits who just wanted to make a big pigs ear out of the whole thing!

They had all the freedom you could want (for a POW), so of course in true Brit style kicked the arse right out of it!!!

[1000ydstare]

And what happened to them afterwards....

While British intelligence had been aware of this unit since Brown's first reports, and had the names of all of its members, it took several weeks for MI5 and Special Branch to track down and detain those involved. Cowie had begun training as a military policeman in Britain when he was arrested. Amery was arrested in northern Italy. Pleasants ended up in the Soviet Occupation Zone of Germany, and was arrested by the Soviets in 1946 on espionage charges, and spent seven years in a prison camp, then returned home to boast of his dubious status as the reigning middle-weight boxing champion of the Waffen-SS until his death in 1997.

Amery and Cooper were tried for high treason alongside William Joyce (also known as "Lord Haw Haw") and Walter Purdy, and sentenced to death; however Cooper's and Purdy's sentences were commuted to life imprisonment. Cooper was released from prison in 1953, and lived in the Far East for a number of years. he returned to the UK in the 1970s and died in 1987. The rest were dealt with under military law: MacLardy was sentenced to life, reduced on appeal to 15; Cowie was sentenced to 15 years, but was released after seven; Wilson got ten years; and Berry, the first recruit, served nine months. Courland was court-martialled by the New Zealand military, sentenced to 15 years, also served only seven. Freeman successfully defended himself on all charges, and was acquitted; MI5 stated his only purpose for joining the BFC was to escape and also to sabotage this unit. Berneville-Claye was acquitted due to lack of evidence, served another year in the army before being discharged for theft, and left the UK to eventually end his days in Australia.

In the middle of 1946, it was learned that three former BFC members had somehow been demobilised and escaped punishment; rather than recalling them to service to face a court-martial, they were merely summoned to an MI5 office, and given a severe warning concerning their future conduct.

Freeman, after the war, said he had seen a list of over 1,100 British who applied to fight against the Soviets. Asked why the BFC remained rife with problems and short of recruits despite opportunities like this, he summed it up that the core base of the BFC were "poor types", which contributed to a lack of any respect for the BFC from the start.

[1000ydstare]

Why Walther may be mistaken in believing they fought.

There is a persistent rumor that one BFC member, Reg Courlander, took part in the Battle of Berlin, and destroyed a Soviet tank. By this time, Roy Courlander was far behind Allied lines, and the movements of the other members of this unit are clearly known. The only person who can be proved to have seen combat in the uniform of the BFC was their translator "Bob" Rossler, who remained with the Nordland division when it went into battle in Berlin, to fight alongside the Volkssturm, Hitlerjugend, and the other mixed bag units defending the city.

The few remaining BFC members followed Steiner's headquarter unit to Neustrelitz. There they drove trucks, directed traffic, and assisted the evacuations of civilians from the Neustrelitz and Reinershagen area until, on April 29, 1945, Steiner ordered his forces to break contact with the Soviets and make for the western lines to surrender to the US or British. On May 2, Cooper and the men with him surrendered to unit of the US Ninth Army near Schwerin.

Meanwhile Hugh Cowie had organized other former BFC men and seized control of their isolation camp. Heavily armed, they made their way west and also surrendered to the Ninth Army at Schwerin.

[Walther]

the british frekorps never saw combat. they numbered 30 men...

According to a British friend, who did extensive research about them, they were actually about 60 blokes and did see some fighting during the last days of the war in Berlin. But I think in this case it was more because they simply couldn't avoid it. They spent most of the war though drinking German beer and shagging German women. :lol:

Jan

Edit / Correction: It appears that there was only one of them who fought in Berlin and this was mainly because he happened to be in uniform in the wrong place at the wrong time, so he couldn't avoid it.
About their number, there existed different figures, everything between platoon strength and company strength.

[Hosenfield]

so they were attached to 5th SS Wiking?

[1000ydstare]

According to www.members.aol.com/sturmpnzr/reenact.htm who are bunch of "reenactors" all though what they can reenact about the Freikorps I don't know!!!

They were "auxiliary of the 11th. SS-Freiwilligen Panzergrenadier Division "Nordland"".

According to the Wikipediea they were probably around Berlin at the end, just before they ran, but mainly in a supporting logistics role than fighting.

They also had removed their insiginia, for some reason, so they wouldn't be easily identifiable as such.

[ww2fanatic1944]

does anybody know the state of the german panzer division at the time of the battle for berlin? obviously they were battered, but did the germans have any tanks?

[1000ydstare]

Very few tanks, and most I believe were used in static positions rather than as tanks as there was no fuel for them!!!!

[Hosenfield]

there were sizeable numbers of Tiger Is and IIs and panthers. but many were either dug-in as stationary defense or watched streets. Essentially, what happened was the panzermen fought until they ran out of ammo and fuel, then sabotaged their tanks and ran.


1 million men,
1,500 AFVs,
3,300 aircraft

[Hosenfield]

i see, attacked to 11t nordland. Its complete rubbish why anyone would want to reenact these "soldiers". lol...

[Walther]

Well, I'd gladly reenact shagging women in 1940s underwear and drinking beer! :D

Jan

[Hosenfield]

Well, I'd gladly reenact shagging women in 1940s underwear and drinking beer! :D

Jan true , true. but isn't that what people do normally anyway? (expect the 1940s underwear part)

they might as well get down and renact nazi fetishes or scenes from Isla: she -wolf of the SS.

[Commando Jordovski]

Well, I'd gladly reenact shagging women in 1940s underwear and drinking beer! :D

Jan

The funny thing is it could be your grandmother or another relative you are "shagging".
:lol:

[Gen. JoshM]

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