Gurkhas

[Gen. Sandworm]

I believe that the gurkhas were mainly made up of Nepalese and Indians. But they were very fearsome fighters and are known for their bommerang looking knives. I believe they are still apart of the British military today. Does any one know much about them?

[South African Military]

Yess they fought with the British in WW2, and I think they fought in El Alamein.

[WildBoar]

Yes the Gurkhas are still part of the British army and their knives are called Kukris. They are apparently very good fighters and I believe that at least one has won a V.C.

[Gen. Sandworm]

Yes the Gurkhas are still part of the British army and their knives are called Kukris. They are apparently very good fighters and I believe that at least one has won a V.C.

I think this pic is from Iraq........i would not wont this crazy bastard running at me.

http://www.nepalesekhukuri.com/gurkhas_5.jpg

http://www.heinnie.com/Kukri/KUK-1.jpg

Here is the knife they use. :shock:

[Andrew]

http://www.army.mod.uk/brigade_of_gurkhas/history/

This is the only the early history of the Gurkhas, there are links from this site, to other sites detailing the rest of History of the Gurkhas.

Legend has it that once drawn the Kukri has to draw blood, this is before it can be resheaved, even if it is only for sharpening the blade.

Over the years the Gurkha Regiments have won many V.C's

There was a documentary on TV about the Gurkhas a couple of years ago, the Nepalese consider it a very great honour to be accepted for the Gurkha Regiments, and adults have been known to cry because they weren't accepted for training as a Gurkha.

[Dani]

http://www.6thgurkhas.org/home.shtml
and
http://www.thegurkhamuseum.co.uk/

[Bluffcove]

Gurkha Physcial selection procedure:-
Physical assessments during Regional Selection will be as follows: As many heaves to the beam as the candidate can manage (minimum acceptable is 14, no time limit). As many sit-ups as possible in 2 minutes on flat ground (minimum acceptable is 70). As many bench jumps as possible in 1 minute (minimum acceptable is 75). Written and oral English tests, and a maths test will be conducted. Candidates will be interviewed by a board consisting of a serving British Officer and a Gurkha Officer. Basic medical checks will also be conducted.

Compared to the Basic Fitness Test required for entry to other regiments:-
39 press ups in 2 minutes
43 sit ups in two minutes
mile an half in 11 mins 30

Hence they are Physically superior to certain parts of the British armed forces and whilst not "Special" Per se, they are an elite.

[Dani]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1344063/posts
No comment :lol:

[Bluffcove]

Yes they are Hindu so they do make sacrifices of live animals. If you want to take issue with that then visit a forum where you can discuss your views on religious freedom. The Killing of live animals is permitted by the British Military because its a religious freedom that we do not deprive them of.

Incidentally their appear to be photographs in you link that indicates "Gurkhas" training with AK74's and derivatives thereof. This is bizarre as all British Infantry save for SF will generally be issued with the SA80. Not Russian weaponry. I believe that some of these troops are Indonesian rather than Gurkha.

But still the Site you have posted proves my point. Im glad that they are on my side

[Dani]

I said anything about sacrifice???

My "No comment" was intended on other pics there (especially last ones). :lol:

[Bluffcove]

this is a good site granted, but a great many pictures are solely of Asiatic soldiers not solely Gurkhas.

Their DPM is wrong in many pictures, as is their Weapon, (informed its an Indian INSAS), and In a couple they are wearing Indian Lids as opposed to the British mark6. the labels attatched to the photos even explain that they are "engaged in Kashmir" check the News bbc.co.uk and I think you'll find we arent involved.(right click on the pictures with India picture on them - go to properties, turns out, a number of these photos are jsut Indian "Ghorka" personel, same kettle different fish)

but yes, I stand by my earlier comment, good soldeirs arent they!

[South African Military]

But did the Gurhkas fight in WW2?

[Dani]

In the Second World War there were no fewer than forty Gurkha battalions in British service, as well as parachute, garrison and training units. In all this totalled some 112,000 men. Side by side with British and Commonwealth troops Gurkhas fought in Syria, the Western Desert, Italy and Greece, from North Malaya to Singapore and from the Siamese border back through Burma to Imphal and then forward again to Rangoon.

In addition to the enormous manpower made available there were many personal gestures on the part of the Minister and Court of Nepal. Large sums of money for the purchase of weapons and equipment, including money for the provision of fighter aircraft during the Battle of Britain, were presented as gifts from Nepal. Considerable sums of money were also donated to the Lord Mayor of London during the Blitz for the relief of victims in the dockland area. An equally generous response was made to a variety of appeals for aid – all this from a country which was then, and still is by western standards, desperately poor. The spirit of this friendship can best be illustrated by the reply made to the Prime Minister of Nepal to the British Minister in Kathmandu after the fall of France in 1940. When Britain stood alone. Permission was sought to recruit an additional 20 battalions for the Gurkha Brigade, and for Gurkha troops to be allowed to serve in any part of the world. This was readily granted by the Prime Minister who remarked, “Does a friend desert a friend in time of need? If you win, we win with you. If you lose, we lose with you”. The whole of the Nepalese Army was again placed at the disposal of the British Crown. Eight Nepalese regiments were sent to India for internal security duties and for operations on the North West Frontier. Later a Nepalese brigade was sent to Burma and fought with particular distinction at the Battle of Imphal.

Quoted from http://www.brigadeofgurkhas.co.uk/

[12345bob]

The soldiers of the Royal Gurkha Rifles are recruited from Nepal, historically from the hill-men - Magars, Thapas, Limbus, Rais, Gurungs etc. The different batallions/regiments used to recruit from different areas (same as British Infantry regiments).

Gurkhas started being used around 1815 - the East India Company had been fighting with them in the foothills of Nepal. At one fight a Lt. Young was captured by them. THey were so impressed by his bravery (not running away) that they kept him alive and returned him (after about a year) to the British. He put an idea forward to higher command to let him recruit these soldiers into the E.I.C. This was accepted. The East India Company later got integrated into the British Indian Army. When India declared independence about half of the Regiments remained with the Indian Army, whilst the rest went to the British Army (I cannot remember which ones, think 1st, 2nd, 6, 7th, and 10th went with British, but I may well be wrong. There was a lot of hard feeling at this time - the Regiments going to India felt as if they had been betrayed.

The Gurkha Regiments and their training depot were based for a long time in Hong Kong. Duties there included patrolling the border, and stopping any Chinese illegal immigrants from entering British Hong Kong.

They have (to the best of my knowledge) fought in every conflict since the time they were recruited (not Boer war though). They have won 26Victoria Crosses (VC). 13 by white British officers, and 13 by Gurkhas. Before 18...? only the British officers could win VCs. I think the last VC was won in the Malayan conflict.

The Brigade of Gurkhas is organised into:
2 infantry batallions (1RGR and 2RGR).
1 Engineer Squadron
1 Transport Squadron
1 Signal Suadron (I think they are creating a 2nd squadron)
1 Band
There are 2 demonstration companies - one at Sandhurst, and one at Infantry Training Centre Wales.

The Gurkhas recruit around 300 per year, to be divided amongst all units of the Brigade of Gurkhas. There are Gurkha officers, not just British ones, they are referred to as Queens Gurkha Officer (QGO). In a batallion the CO, 2ic, Adjutant, the Company Commanders (Major), and one platoon commander per company are British. The Coy. 2i/c, platoon commanders (2), and the Gurkha Major are Nepalese.

Units work mainly using Nepalese, though in order to get promoted the soldiers have to pass English exams.

The Kukri has long been the traditional weapon of the Gurkhas, and they carry it to this day. It is a myth that they have to draw blood with it each time they draw it.

As to those disagreeing with Gurkhas - they are highly professional soldiers from Martial races. They consider it a great honour to be a part of the British Army, and swear aleigance to the Queen when they are recruited. They are an elite - superior fitness etc. They are not a bunch of blood thirsty savages - but then again a rumour such as this cannot be bad.

I hope this information proves useful - it was all off the top of my head, so please excuse any mistakes.

[reiver]

12345Bob:
Excellent post : one minor correction though.
The last VC won by a Ghurka was during the Borneo campaign.
"It was in November 1965 that Lance Corporal Rambahadur Limbu of the 2nd Battalion, 10th PMO Gurkha Rifles won the Victoria Cross."
Difference between us is I had to check sources; definitely NOT off the top of my head :D

[12345bob]

I stand corrected. Am wanting to join the Gurkhas - done a bit of background reading, but I evidently need to get the facts right!
Cheers

[reiver]

Incidentally Bob,
You're right about the second Sigs Sqn being formed, but I wonder if you know that both it and the current Signal Sqn are fully mixed in nature.
ie British ORs and NCOS as well as Ghurka, and Ghurka officers as well as British.

[12345bob]

I had heard that - don't know too much about them though, since I am not that inclined to technical bits like that (and since I'm not doing an electronic type degree, I have no chance of getting into them!)

[BDL]

Good post 12345bob - one small point though - there are currently two Royal Ghurkha Signals Squadrons in the British Army, one with 30 Sigs and one with 2 Sigs.

The Ghurkhas are uniformally respected within the British Army, they go through a lot more than your average recruit to get into our army and make extremely good soldiers.

edit - there are three squadrons - there's one at 21 Sigs to :oops:

[Bluffcove]

Gurkhas, Speak Gurkhali, they traditionally come from a region of Nepal near pokara, they are Gurkhas.

They are Gukhas before they get to Britain.

[Ale]

Interestingly, my understanding is that the British Foreign Office have always formally requested permission to deploy Gurkha troops from the King of Nepal prior to engagement. This tradition dates back at least as far as WWI. At the start of WWII, the King of Nepal said:

"Of course you may have our men, what are friends for? If you win, we will win with you, if you lose we will die with you."

[Gen. Sandworm]

Click ............. and the topic is locked. Talk to ya about in Locked topics.

[Gen. Sandworm]

Topic reopened ......... keep it clean. Make sure you read my comment in locked topics. :D :evil:

[reiver]

The Gurkhas are exclusively from Nepal, an independent kingdom, no Indians are entered into the British Gurkha Regiments.
Physically, they tend to be stockily built, probably averaging around 5' 6" or so in height, broad shouldered, deep chested, and frequently (since they are hillmen) with extremely powerful legs.

One of their training programmes in Hong kong developed into what is now the famous Trailwalker race; a non-stop cross-country course for four-man teams, over the 100Km, McLehose Trail, over the thirty or so mountain peaks in the Territory.
All team members have to cross the finish line before the time counts, so each team's time is determined by their "weakest" man.
Started in 1970 and opened to the general public in 1980, it was very seldom, prior to the handback to China, that a Ghurka team didn't finish first. Their record from 1993 still stands, I believe, at 13 hours 18minutes.


The Infantry regiments have a mix of British and Gurkha officers, with the C.O. always a British officer, and his 2iC a Gurkha officer.
As has been said elsewhere, they are recruited from about six tribes, Rai, Darang, Limbu etc, and you will see those names feature again and again, as a Gurkha will use his tribe as his last name, eg Rambahadur Limbu V.C.

The image of the kukri posted by General Sandworm is unusual, in that the blade appears to be pierced near the hilt; this would usually be a notch (the "kaura") on the edge of the blade, which could be used to catch an opponents blade, but which is primarily of religious significance. It is a Hindu phallic symbol.
The kukri, in battle, is used with a slicing or slashing motion, not a chopping one. This action, together with the weight-forward design of the blade gives it great power.
Some experts now believe that the design originated in the swords (machaira) of Alexander the Great's horsemen.
The two small blades carried in the sheath are a steel for sharpening the kukri, and a skinning knife for game.
The idea that a Ghurka has to draw blood every time he unsheathes the Kukri is nonsensical: he'd die of loss of blood before he reached adulthood, since typically a Nepali boy receives his first kukri at about age 5, and it is the all-purpose utility tool of Nepal, used for chopping wood, opening cans etc etc.
As used by the Gurkha soldiers, it fulfils the same function as the K-Bar or combat knife of the American marine: a close-quarter weapon used in hand-to-hand fighting, or to make a silent attack at night.

In WW2 they fought with great distinction at Monte Cassino, as well as throughout Italy and Africa, winning three Victoria Crosses.
In Burma, against the Japanese, where thick jungle made close-quarter fighting much more common than had been the case during most European battles, the Gurkhas won a further seven VCs, a truly remarkable achievement.

One last point.
It has been stated elsewhere, and I won't mention by whom :wink: , that the Gurkhas are mercenaries.

According to Article 47 of Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions, a mercenary is defined as any person who:

"Is specially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict;

Does, in fact, take a direct part in the hostilities;

Is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party.

Is neither a national of a Party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict;

Is not a member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict; and

Has not been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces."

Points 3 and 5 are the important ones. RGR are part of the armed forces of the Crown and are only paid as such. End of debate - they are not mercenaries. :D

[Man of Stoat]

The myth about having to draw blood after unsheathing a kukri is just that - a myth. In Nepal it's their utility knife, used for everything from cutting wood to preparing food.

All the gurkhas I've met have been top blokes - one (a Cpl) even insisted on filling my magazine whilst I was fiddling around with my SUSAT on a the zeroing range of a divisional TASAM competition (I was an OCdt and felt embarrassed by this!). I did have difficulty explaining to one of the 1st aid gurkhas that's I'd got nipple rub on the Para Cup stage & needed a plaster, since his english was not that good.

[Bluffcove]

GANJU LAMA, who has died aged 75, was awarded a Victoria Cross in Burma for his action on June 12 1944 when B Company, 7th Gurkha Rifles, were checking a Japanese attack, supported by tanks, in the Imphal and Kohima area.

Although the Japanese had failed in their attempt to break through the British lines and move on into India, they still had the resources to mount fierce attacks. On June 12 they had put down an intense artillery barrage on the Gurkha-held position north of the village of Ningthoukhong, knocking out several bunkers and causing heavy casualties.

They followed this up with an exceptionally strong attack. After ferocious hand-to-hand fighting, and supported by three medium tanks, they broke through the line in one place, pinning opposing British troops to the ground with intense fire. B Company, 7th Gurkha Rifles, was ordered to counter-attack and restore the situation. Shortly after passing the starting line, the company came under heavy enemy medium machine-gun and tank machine-gun fire at point-blank range, which covered all lines of approach.

Rifleman Ganju Lama, the No 1 of the PIAT (Projector Infantry Anti-Tank) - which launched a 3 lb grenade on his initiative - crawled forward through thick mud, bleeding profusely, and engaged the tanks single-handedly.

In spite of a broken left wrist and two other wounds, one in his right hand and one in his leg, caused by withering cross-fire concentrated on him, he succeeded in bringing his gun into action within 30 yards of the enemy tanks. He knocked out first one, and then another, the third tank being destroyed by an anti-tank gun.

Despite his serious wounds, he then moved forwards and engaged with grenades the tank crews who were now attempting to escape. Not until he had killed or wounded them all, thus enabling his company to push forward, did he allow himself to be taken back to the Regimental Aid Post to have his wounds dressed.

"Throughout the action," his citation attested, "Rifleman Ganju Lama, although seriously wounded, showed a complete disregard for his own personal safety and it was solely due to his prompt action and brave conduct that a most critical situation was averted, all positions regained, and heavy casualties inflicted on the enemy." After this exploit, having been taken by stretcher to the Regimental Aid Post, Ganju Lama was evacuated to a Base Hospital.

His VC - the award of which requires three independent witnesses and the risk of death to be 90 to 100 per cent - was eventually presented to him in Delhi by the Viceroy, Field Marshal Lord Wavell, in the presence of Admiral Lord Louis Mountbatten, General Slim, and members of his own family.

A month earlier, Ganju Lama had been awarded the Military Medal. During operations on the Tiddim Road, his regiment surprised a party of Japanese and killed several of them. Ganju Lama was awarded the MM for destroying two tanks in the action.


After Indian Independence in 1947, Ganju Lama joined the 11th Gorkha (as it is spelt in the Indian army) Rifles, a regiment formed from Gurkhas of the 7th and 10th Gurkha Rifles who had decided to continue their services in India instead of joining the British Army.

Later, he was promoted Subedar Major (Chief Indian Officer in a company of Sepoys) and in 1965 was appointed ADC to the President of India. The year before, a large boil had developed on his leg; when it burst, a Japanese bullet came out.

In retirement, Ganju Lama returned to his people and was appointed honorary ADC to the President of India for life. He had been granted the honorary rank of Captain in 1968 while still serving.

Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 2000.
**************************************************

Of the Many VC's won by Gurkhas through the years. I find this one to be the most impressive, This is the Internet account of the action, However in a book entitled "True Courage" (I think) there is a more detailed account;

On arriving back at his Section and under questioning by his superior officer as to why he had gone to such risks as to crawl within thirty yards of the enemy tank rather than engage it from cover, Lama replied,

"I have practiced on the range with the PIAT, and I know I cannot be sure of hitting a target unless I am within 30 yards"

Being aware of your limitations is one thing - but to compensate for them in such a way is surely Valour!

[pdf27]

RIFLEMAN LACHHIMAN GURUNG, VC

"At Taungdaw, in Burma, on the west bank of the irrawaddy, on the night of 12/13th may, 1945, Rifleman Lachhiman Gurung was manning the most forward post of his platoon. At 01.20hours, at least 200enemy assaulted his company position. The brunt of the attack was borne by rifleman Lachhiman Gurung's section and by his own post in particular. This post dominated a jungle path leading up into his platoon locality.

Before assaulting, the enemy hurled innumerable grenades at the position from close range. One grenade fell on the lip of Rifleman Lachhiman Gurung's trench; he at once grasped it and hurled it back at the enemy. Almost immediately another grenade fell directly inside the trench. Again this rifleman snatched it up and threw it back. A third grenade then fell just in front of the trench. He attempted to throw it back, but it exploded in his hand, blowing off his fingers, shattering his right arm and severely wounding him in the face, body and right leg. His two comrades were also badly wounded and lay helpless in the bottom of the trench.

The enemy, screaming and shouting, now formed up shoulder to shoulder and attempted to rush the position by sheer weight of numbers. rifleman Lachhiman Gurung, regardless of his wounds, fired and loaded his rifle with his left hand, maintaining a continuous and steady rate of fire. Wave after wave of fanatical attacks with heavy casualties.

For four hours after being severely wounded Rifleman Lachhiman Gurung remained alone at his post, waiting with perfect calm for each attack, which he met with fire at point-blank flange from his rifle, determined not to give one inch of ground.

Of the 87 enemy dead counted in the immediate vicinity of the company locality,31 lay in front of this rifleman's section, the key to the whole position. Had the enemy succeeded in over-running and occupying Rifleman Lachhiman Gurung's trench, the whole of the reverse his comrades to resist the enemy to the last, that, although surrounded and cut off for three days and two nights, they held and smashed every attack.

His outstanding gallantry and extreme devotion to duty in the face of almost overwhelming odds, were the main factors in the defect of the enemy".

Citation taken from the London Gazette

[Bluffcove]

In a top trumps stylee, I think your VC beats my VC, but Id be in awe of either!

For anyone interested in what the British Military believes to be "for Valour" use this link.
www.victoriacross.net/default.asp

all 1355 VC's ever awarded are listed here by name, date and conflict.

[Tubbyboy]

...which he met with fire at point-blank flange from his rifle, determined not to give one inch of ground.

:shock:

Brave man though... How many VCs have been won overall by Gurkhas?

[Bluffcove]

according to Victoriacross.net

11 Nepalese Soldiers have earnt the VC, between the dates of 1915 and 1965 - However due to the search criteria on vicotriacross.net some are missing, quite a few in fact!

This does not include British officers fighting alongside Gurkhas in various conflicts.
Until 1911, Only British officers could collect the VC.

By my count 26, I can type them all in if you want but it is from a regimental history not a copy and paste from Google so it may take some time!

[reiver]

As has been posted previously, Gurkhas have won a total of 26 VCs, of which 13 were won by native Nepalese and 13 by British Officers of the Regiments.

[Gen. Sandworm]

Topic reopened ......... keep it clean. Make sure you read my comment in locked topics. :D :evil:

Now see.........we have a good thread going here now. Some really interesting info. Not pages loaded of pure crap. Thanks to all for your recent work. :D

[Firefly]

I have had 1st hand experience of these men. They are not mercinaries. They are nice polite hardworking guys who take their job seriously and I am proud to know at least one of them as a friend.

[Gen. Sandworm]

Do they actually use the knife (aka whatever) much or is it more of a display item. Guess what im getting at is what kind of training do they recieve on it? Maybe im wrong but I dont see Gurkha's as a real special forces unit such as US Navy Seals or British SAS. So the knife wouldnt seem as important. ??? Just curious.

[South African Military]

Do they actually use the knife (aka whatever) much or is it more of a display item. Guess what im getting at is what kind of training do they recieve on it? Maybe im wrong but I dont see Gurkha's as a real special forces unit such as US Navy Seals or British SAS. So the knife wouldnt seem as important. ??? Just curious.

Well I do not know much about the Gurkhas, and their knives, but they werent a special forces unit. They were advanced infantry, i think. :?:

[BDL]

Do they actually use the knife (aka whatever) much or is it more of a display item. Guess what im getting at is what kind of training do they recieve on it? Maybe im wrong but I dont see Gurkha's as a real special forces unit such as US Navy Seals or British SAS. So the knife wouldnt seem as important. ??? Just curious.

The Kukhri is a back up weapon should they need one (much like any knife any soldier carries), but it is more ceremonial now than weapon. Really, if you end up fighting with a knife then you've really fucked up somewhere.

It is still important to the Gurkhas, they get given a silver one presented to them when they finish their training - it's like any other Regimental icon (and remember how much more important the Regiment is to British soldiers than to most foreign soldiers).

The Gurkhas are not special forces in the same definition as SAS, Spetznatz or SEALS, they are just very very good infantry (and Signals, Engineers, Logisticians etc).

[reiver]

Do they actually use the knife (aka whatever) much or is it more of a display item. Guess what im getting at is what kind of training do they recieve on it? Maybe im wrong but I dont see Gurkha's as a real special forces unit such as US Navy Seals or British SAS. So the knife wouldnt seem as important. ??? Just curious.

To be honest, no real training by the Army is neccesary.
Remember, this is an everyday item which they have used since they were maybe 5 years old.
It's use as a weapon is passed on from the old and bold to the new recruits.

[2nd of foot]

When I visited them at Church Crookham in 72 they used them to cut the grass. They also had chillies on the bar in place of nuts to nibble on, and yes, one of our number thought he could also eat chilli :D . I think they have drills the same as bayonet practice.

They are bog standard infantry in a light role, no better no worse. They have the same training and equipment and attend the same courses. The media like to present them as special because they are different/unique. A lot of the pictures in the early post are of Indian army Gurkhas. The Gurkhas have belonged to the Indian army and only joined the British army on India’s independence. And before any wish to quarry this the Indian army was formed out of the East India Company forces under British control after the mutiny. The Indian army has always had close link with the British and cross postings was very common. Slim was an Indian army officer (Gurkha) and attended staff college in India as well as Camberley. British regiment were also posted to India for long periods (25 years).

[Sturmtruppen]

http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/uniforms/soldier-allied-gurkha-borneo.jpg

[reiver]

From Wilkipedia:
Tulbahadur Pun
He was 21 years old, and a Rifleman in the 3rd Bn., 6th Gurkha Rifles, Indian Army during the Second World War when the following deed took place for which he was awarded the VC.

On 23 June 1944 at Mogaung, Burma (now Myanmar), during an attack on the railway bridge, a section of one of the platoons was wiped out with the exception of Rifleman Tulbahadur Pun, his section commander and one other. The section commander immediately led a charge on the enemy position but was at once badly wounded, as was the third man. Rifleman Tulbahadur Pun, with a Bren gun continued the charge alone in the face of shattering fire and reaching the position, killed three of the occupants and put five more to flight, capturing two light machine-guns and much ammunition. He then gave accurate supporting fire, enabling the rest of his platoon to reach their objective.

However, the feat I wanted to direct attention to:
"Many years later, on 10 December 1980, Tulbahadur visited the British Gurkha Centre at Pokhara to meet the Prince of Wales. It had taken him some twelve days to make a journey which normally took him four days; he had recently been knocked off a cliff by a boulder and had been unconscious for two days. On regaining consciousness he started coughing blood but he gradually got better. At Pokhara, after meeting Prince Charles, he was advised to go to hospital where an examination showed that the old man had broken one shoulder and smashed six ribs.
The doctors were amazed when they heard that he had been walking over mountain tracks for twelve days with such injuries.
Tulbahadur had not lost the qualities that had won him a VC over thirty-six years before"
Quoted from "Johnny Gurkha 'Friends in the Hills'" by E.D."Birdie" Smith, 7th Gurkha Rifles.

[SMLE]

As someone said earlier, both the British and Indian armies retain Gurkha Regiments.

I've seen photos on the net of British Gurkhas training for combat with kukris, although of course I doubt if much is needed.

My experience of Gurkhas themselves is limited to a brief chat with one outside the cookhouse; nice polite chaps.

Edit spelling.

[Man of Stoat]

I'd like to see Ironman post some evidence that we play "stay behind the darkies" with the Gurkhas - something that I find quite offensive, and slanderous to the honour of not only the Gurkhas themselves, but also the British Army as a whole.

Or is his "opinion" about how we use the gurkahs just as vaid an opinion as the truth about how we actually do use them? He does seem to be of the generation which believes in no such thing as objective truth, and opinions being as valid and truthful as cold, hard facts.

[VB]

Ironman has failed to substantiate his accusations, probably because they are entirely without foundation.

Perhaps Ironman is confusing the Ghurka situation with the racism which affected black soldiers in the US military in WWII. There were some allegations of the US Army sending these units into situations where they wouldn't send white soldiers; to quote from one article (at http://www.aawar.net/), "The Americans were sending their black troops straight into the front of the German lines, instead of to the side. And there was no reason for it. So the Americans sent these soldiers to die." Certainly black soldiers were not awarded the same medals as white soldiers, at least until President Clinton presented the Medal of Honor (sic) to some black veterans a few years ago.

[pdf27]

Certainly black soldiers were not awarded the same medals as white soldiers, at least until President Clinton presented the Medal of Honor (sic) to some black veterans a few years ago.
Errr... IIRC at least a dozen black soldiers were awarded the MoH during the US Civil War...

[reiver]

Certainly black soldiers were not awarded the same medals as white soldiers, at least until President Clinton presented the Medal of Honor (sic) to some black veterans a few years ago.
Errr... IIRC at least a dozen black soldiers were awarded the MoH during the US Civil War...

Absolutely correct.
African American soldiers had been awarded the MoH in virtually every major conflict up until WW1.
If memory serves, one was recommended for the award in WW1, but it was refused, but awarded later by Clinton (I stand to be corrected on that one), but for WWII the award of 8 medals to black recipients were only made in 1991 by Bill Clinton.
It was deemed that different criteria had been applied to black troops during the conflict.

[IRONMAN]

Ironman has failed to substantiate his accusations, probably because they are entirely without foundation.

Perhaps Ironman is confusing the Ghurka situation with the racism which affected black soldiers in the US military in WWII. There were some allegations of the US Army sending these units into situations where they wouldn't send white soldiers; to quote from one article (at http://www.aawar.net/), "The Americans were sending their black troops straight into the front of the German lines, instead of to the side. And there was no reason for it. So the Americans sent these soldiers to die." Certainly black soldiers were not awarded the same medals as white soldiers, at least until President Clinton presented the Medal of Honor (sic) to some black veterans a few years ago.

The US's use of black units ended a long time ago. We no longer do such. The public would not allow the use of an ethnically aligned group for anything, soldiering included, and the law prevents it. I would not mind discussing the Gurkhas, but only the Grukhas themselves, as anything else causes fights.

I was looking at that picture of the knife that was posted. It looks like a knife used for slashing, almost like a machette. It looked awefully sharp too. IKES!

[Bluffcove]

I am lead to believe that the balance of the blade makes it less effective for "slashing" than you would hope, a gollock of machete would be more effective if you wanted to slice flesh. The Kukri is more likely to crush bone and shatter limbs..... Or so the legends surrounding the Brigade would have you believe. The mystique surrounding the Gurkhas is one of their greatest assets Mount William etc, You yourself have said you are convinced they are hard bastards. No doubt this plays into their hands when they take to the field.

Bluffcove.

In all seriousness thankyou for admitting you knew nothing about the Gurkhas prior to reading about them on this website, It was evident to most of us you didnt have a scoobies and it is gracious of you to admit it. Thankyou also for redressing your comments that there were "no foreign nationals, not one, serving in a US uniform" It is a shame tht we had to educate you about recruitment in your own armed forces but you eventually accepted that you were out of your depth and wrong when you made these. Thankyou once again Bluffcove.

[Bladensburg]

In Nepal kukris of various sizes are used for almost everything from cutting wood to eating, so Gurkhas themselves are accustomed to them and consequently very proficient.
I bought a kukri from a car boot sale a few years ago for curiousity's sake - not a very good example probably a souvenier. It's actually more like a hatchet than a knife in balance and design (although the shape is similar to early Greek weapons) with most of the weight towards the tip, it's quite good for splitting sticks for tinder and for "butchery" type applications as Bluffcove suggested.
It does have a very pronounced curve - thus reducing the length of cut and effort needed - and will take quite a sharp edge. However it isn't at it's best cutting "dead", one has to make a "live" cut in which the blade is also moving perpendicular to the direction of cut - like a saw rather than a Stanley knife - Japanese Katana blades have a similar property the blade must be moving across as well as into the target.
During the Indian Mutiny a Gurkha working with the 60th Rifles is reported to have decapitated a mutineer with a single blow of his kukri, saving a Rifleman and allegedly begining the association between the Gurkhas and the Rifles. During WWI Gurkhas gained a reputation for sneaking across no-mans land at night and slitting the throats of unfortunate Germans and Turks (this spawned one of the stories as to why the British lace their boots as they do - so that Gurkhas would recognise their own Lines in the dark). Similar things are supposed to have happened in WWII in Burma.
These stories are things that have given the Gurkhas their mystique amongst the Queens enemies, even though Gurkhas have been trained and equipped as Riflemen since the Mutiny (and had muskets before) and give rise to the wild stories of knife-wielding berserkers that so frightened the poor half-trained Argentine conscripts on the Falklands and the ludicrus accusattions of under-armed cannon fodder. Of course, if you think about it (which fortunately the conscripts didn't) a rifle and a bayonet beats a kukri most days in modern war, which is why it's fortunate the Conscripts didn't think or they may have stood. This is when they would have discovered why the Gurkhas are accorded the title of Rifleman, because the British don't ship hundreds of men thousands of miles just to use them as human shields when there men with guns available.
BTW as Rifles the Gurkhas "fix Swords" not bayonets.

[Voluntary Escaper]

To clear up some misconceptions about the Gurkhas:

1. The Gurkhas originate from the Indian Army (of the British Empire) and formed one of many regiments from the ethnic groups and clans of India. The Sikhs are another ethnic group that had a similar martial tradition and, although they do not have a regiment any longer, there is a distinctive Sikh headdress authorised for wear in the UK Armed Forces.

2. The British Army and the Indian Army were seperate armies, with the Indian Army notionally headed by the Viceroy of India and formed in 1857 after the Mutiny to replace the armed forces of the East Indian Company.

3. The regiments of the Indian Army were not conscripted or pressed into service. They were 100% volunteers throughout their history, and the regiments had their origins in forces raised by local rulers who were granted subsidies by the British Empire, and in "native" soldiers employed by the East India Company. For example, there was a Bengal Army, a Madras Army and a Bombay Army.

4a. The command chain of the Indian Army was complex. A battalion of Indian soldiers or sepoys would be headed by a British lieutenant-colonel. He would have a Subadar Major as his right-hand man who was responsible for all matters relating to customs, religion and morale. The Subadar was a platoon commander or company 2ic and below this rank was the Jemadar. All of these ranks were entitled to the salute and the use of the term Sahib. In protocol terms, they fell between second lieutenant and warrant officer. The non-commissioned ranks in descending order of precedence were Havildar Major and Havildar, Naik or Amaldar and lance-Naik.

4b. The command chain above was in addition to the traditional officer ranks of the British Army ie. Majors, Captains, Lieutenants, who held staff and command appointments in the Indian Army. Notably, the officer cadre was composed of "British" officers and "Indian" officers and there was no race distinction. The (excellent) author John Masters (a former Captain/Major in the Indian Army) recalls his time at Sandhurst (officer training academy) and his fellow officer cadet (later Captain) Mohammed Usman.

5. The issue of racism and imperialism is complex. The British Empire was built on mutually beneficial trade with the princes of the Indian subcontinent, although some hostile rulers were defeated in battle or (generously) pensioned into exile. The relationship between the different peoples of the Indian Army was underpinned by mutual respect. British officers invariably learned the dialects and customs of the sepoys they served alongside and had the deepest respect (some use the term "love") for their soldiers. The stereotype of the colonial officer was fuelled by the history of the 1857 Mutiny (about which many inaccuracies have arisen, such as the use of animal fat to grease cartridges - false) and Churchill's anachronistic and racist views on India which dated from his 19th century service and was at odds with the views of officers of the time and of writers such as Kipling, who is often seen as racist and imperialist but whose writings are very much different.

6. No Indian Army regiments were employed as "cannon fodder" which is not a term readily associated with the British Army in any case. For example, 111 Indian Infantry Brigade's order of battle (in 1943/1944) was 2nd Bn King's Own Royal Regiment (Lancaster), 1st Bn Cameronians (Scottish Rifles), 3rd Bn 4th Prince of Wales's Own Gurkha Rifles and 4th Bn 9th Gurkha Rifles. The split in this formation was 50% "British" and 50% "Indian".

7. This is an extract from the modern Indian Army website http://indianarmy.nic.in/arhist1.htm#Command,%20Staff%20and%20Organization detailing the imperial history of the Indian Army. The tone of the extract speaks for itself.

Tradition fights. The Indian Army Sepoy (from the Hindustani word sipahi) and now Jawan (young man) or Sawar (rider) and his leaders formed a cohesive collective. They lived to serve the Unit, they were willing to die for it. Nothing must happen which would tarnish its honour, its izzat. The word in Urdu is a distillation hard to explain, encapsulating in itself the code of ethics given by Dharma (faith) and Namak (literally, salt). Unflinching loyalty was to a concept and not to a transient personality or cause. Always and everywhere, the Unit came first. Everything followed from it - the Regiment, the Flag, and the Country. This was the greatest battle-winning factor bequeathed by history to the Indian Army. The men were there, ready and willing to serve a flag, with honour, glory and mutual respect. Quick to appreciate these traits, successive British governments brought in more regional groupings into the Army. A fierce undying loyalty to the Unit was evinced by the British Officer Corps, and the Indian junior leaders and men reciprocated it. The greatest ambition of a British Officer was to command his Regiment.


8. This extract, from the same website as above, outlines the history of "Indian" commissioned service in the Indian Army.

Resistance to providing Indian leadership for the Indian Army persisted for quite a while. Roberts, a long-standing Commander-in-Chief of the Army was of the view that no Indian officer could have serving under him a British officer, or even a British NCO. The most an Indian could aspire for was an Indian commission, with 'Subedar Major' being the highest rank. The first major change came in l919-20, in response to the then Indian political leadership's strident demands for 'Indianization' of the Army, in that ten vacancies were reserved for suitable' Indians at the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst.

Indian political demands also impelled the British to set up the Indian Military Academy (IMA) at Debra Dun on 1 October 1932. The training was for a period of two and a half years. The IMA was formally inaugurated by the Commander-in-Chief in India, FM Sir Philip Chetwode, on 10 December 1932. In his inaugural address to the trainees, he enunciated three principles which were to guide the future officers of the Indian Army:

The safety, honour, and welfare of your country comes first, always and everytime.

The honour, welfare and comfort of the men you command come next.

Your own ease, comfort and safety come last, always and everytime.

The first batch of Gentleman Cadets who passed out of the IMA were commissioned in December 1934. This batch was to produce India's first Field Marshal, SAM Manekshaw MC of the 8th Gorkha Rifles. On independence, Indian officers, junior in service and experience to their British mentors (the highest rank holders were Brigadiers Cariappa and Thimayya), were able to step into their elevated ranks and responsibilities, with confidence.

9. The views of the CinC Roberts at the start of the article are without a doubt racist, but must be viewed in the context of the mindset of the time. The Army had only recently abolished the purchase of commissions and flogging, so in many ways it is to the immense credit of the British Empire and Army that Sandhurst vacancies were created as early as 1920. Note also that two "Indian" Brigadiers were in post at the onset of Independence.

10. Finally, the record of the Indian Army speaks for itself:

The war in Burma sprouted some of our outstanding middle-level and junior leaders such as Brigadier KS Thimayya DSO, Major Srikant Korla DSO, MC, Major NC Rawlley MC and Major Rajwade, to name but a few. The Victoria Cross (VC) - the first award of it's kind to an Indian Commissioned Officer was awarded to Second Lieutenant Premindra Singh Bhagat of the Bombay Sappers for an act of unparalleled bravery and inspiring leadership, on the night of 31 January/1 February 1941, when commanding a detachment of 21 Field company of the Bombay Sappers on the road to Gondar, in Abyssinia.

"Ayo Gorkhali" (The Gorkhas have come)

The Indian Army by the end of the War was thus rated as among the best in the world whose Officers and men displayed the highest levels of motivation and gallantry on the field of battle.

[LargeBrew]

If anyone is interested in a really good radio documentary on the Indian Army in WW2 go to BBC radio archive an look for Stand East, it's a thirty min programme. I found it enjoyable and informitive listening.

[Sturmtruppen]

What´s the difference between nepalese and indian gurkha?

[Bladensburg]

What´s the difference between nepalese and indian gurkha?


ALL Gurkhas are Nepali, however some serve in the British Army and some in the Indian Army. Before Indian independence in 1948 all Gurkhas were recruited into the Imperial Indian Army which was technicaly independent of the British Army but came under the overall command of the Chief of the Imperial General Staff (CIGS) in London.
After Indian independence (Nepal was always independent) the King of Nepal offered to allow some Gurkhas to be directly recruited into the British Army instead of the Indian to prevent Indian service being seen as too unattractive a tri-partite agreement was worked out to harmonise salaries and pensions for all Gurkhas.

[Sturmtruppen]

thanks for replying :)

[reiver]

If anyone is interested in the different forms the Kukri can take, pay a visit to "the Khukuri House" site :
http://www.khukurihouseonline.com/

They make and supply kukris to the British, Indian and Nepalese Armies according to the site.
It also has pics of the manufacturing process (all by hand/traditional methods).

General Sandworm, it seems the Kukri you posted the pic of was made in the village of Chainpure in Eastern Nepal.
Apparently that's the only place where the notch is changed to a hole in the blade.

[Walther]

I've got one Khukri in my collection, but I don't know what type it is. It looks like the issue one and is engrave "GORKHA ARMY" and a serial number 2060, but looks of relatively low quality (tool marks on the blade). A colleague of my father brought it once back from a field trip to northern India and Nepal.

Jan

[1000ydstare]

Walther, post or PM me some pics mate, I'll try to help.

By the spelling I'd say it was an Indian Army Kukri.

[Dani]

I take my liberty to delete few OFF-TOPIC POSTS here.
Stick to WW2, Gents!!!

As did I. I didn't make my own post to avoid bumping this back up to the top for no reason.
Crab.