The battle of Kursk

[FW-190 Pilot]

The german's objective is very simple, which is to attack Kursk in two directions (from north and from the south) with their newest king tiger tank. The soviet knew their tank is not powerful enough to penatrate king tiger armour, so they let their tank rush to German tank and ask for close range combat. The German tank are quickly defeated as they are encircled by Soviet tank, german tank did counter attack, but their cannon would just deflected off the slope-armour T-34 (thus create minimal damage). Both side have heavy caualites, but the soviets are able to replace 5 tanks for every german, which eventually the soviet has repelled the german attack, is that correct?

[Gen. Sandworm]

......... with their newest king tiger tank. The soviet knew their tank is not powerful enough to penatrate king tiger armour.......

The King Tiger was not used in the battle of Kursk. Just the regualar Tiger tank. The King Tiger was mostly used on the Western front. Dont think it came out untill mid to late 44

[FW-190 Pilot]

......... with their newest king tiger tank. The soviet knew their tank is not powerful enough to penatrate king tiger armour.......

The King Tiger was not used in the battle of Kursk. Just the regualar Tiger tank. The King Tiger was mostly used on the Western front. Dont think it came out untill mid to late 44
thanks for that, but other than that, do you think i am right about the battle of kursk?

[Gen. Sandworm]

The battle of Kursk was pretty even. Neither side really won. However the Germans couldnt afford the losses they sustained. After this the Germans didnt launch any major offensives on the Eastern Front.

[Russischer Fritz]

Main advantage Т-34 in Kursk fight was speed. It confirm set of the facts and memoirs of tankmen. The main opportunity to win German Tigers consist in as soon as possible to break forward and to set a shell in a lateral part of the fascist tank. As a whole, here there is nothing to speak. Two huge monsters were linked in fight. Everyone had advantages and lacks. We have appeared more strongly and more cleverly:) again it is a pity, that I cannot transfer you the most interesting documentary films about tank parts of the USSR and fascist Germany... :(
I even have small a videofile, with approach of Russian tank army together with planes! The tremendous staff! Planes fly only in several meters above the ground. And it seems that will fall. These are fighters.

[FW-190 Pilot]

Main advantage Т-34 in Kursk fight was speed. It confirm set of the facts and memoirs of tankmen. The main opportunity to win German Tigers consist in as soon as possible to break forward and to set a shell in a lateral part of the fascist tank. As a whole, here there is nothing to speak. Two huge monsters were linked in fight. Everyone had advantages and lacks. We have appeared more strongly and more cleverly:) again it is a pity, that I cannot transfer you the most interesting documentary films about tank parts of the USSR and fascist Germany... :(
I even have small a videofile, with approach of Russian tank army together with planes! The tremendous staff! Planes fly only in several meters above the ground. And it seems that will fall. These are fighters.
that would be so great if i can see the video file

[Russischer Fritz]

You can tell to me the E-mail? In a forum I cannot attach files to the letter.

[FW-190 Pilot]

You can tell to me the E-mail? In a forum I cannot attach files to the letter.
vancity2010@gmail.com
thanks

[Gen. Sandworm]

I even have small a videofile, with approach of Russian tank army together with planes! The tremendous staff! Planes fly only in several meters above the ground. And it seems that will fall. These are fighters.

Maybe you can send it to the admin and he can add it to the site.

[Russischer Fritz]

I already spoke him about this. We look forward to hearing :)

[South African Military]

Great, I look forward to seeing it.

[Gen. Sandworm]

I did hear that 100.000 people died in one day of fighting at the battle of Kursk. It was also the largest tank battle ever.

[FW-190 Pilot]

this is no big deal when it compares to ancient chinese war
400,000 soldiers are encircled by 500,000 soldiers and was forced to surrender, the winning side thought it would be hard and risky to held so many prisoners, the general then decided to bury all 400,000 captures alive (captures cant really cause any resistent, they have went at least 7 days without food or water)

one kingdom has conquered most of the northen china and lead a 800,000 soldiers south and want to conquer the south as well. unluckily, the south side has really bright generals, they are able to burn all ships from the north side and cause over 500,000 soldiers death in one day. after this, the north side has not enough power to have such a big operation for at least 50 years

[FW-190 Pilot]

who can tell me whether my description to the war is right or not?

[Gen. Sandworm]

who can tell me whether my description to the war is right or not?

If your talking about the Chinese thing might be best to start a new topic in Off Topic. :D

[FW-190 Pilot]

who can tell me whether my description to the war is right or not?

If your talking about the Chinese thing might be best to start a new topic in Off Topic. :D
nah, my question is who can tell me whether my description to the war of kursk is right or not?

i am very sure that my description to those chinese war are right

[HEINRICI]

The battle of Kursk was pretty even. Neither side really won. However the Germans couldnt afford the losses they sustained. After this the Germans didnt launch any major offensives on the Eastern Front.
After the debacle at Stalingrad, the German high command was split on how to continue the war in 1943. Most of the top generals, including Guderian and Manstein, did not want to conduct a major offensive. Tactical experience had shown a much better chance of success by using a mobile defense and setting traps for the Russians. In this way they could compensate for being outnumbered. A minority of opinion, led by General Kurt Zeitzler, wanted to employ the new Panthers, Tigers and Ferdinands to break through the Kursk bulge and threaten Moscow from the south. Hitler didn't know what to do. While they were waiting for shipments of the new tanks to arrive, Guderian advised him "Why do we want to attack at all in the east this year?" Hitler agreed with him.
However, as May approached, Zeitzler changed Manstein's mind, and got the operational orders changed. Hitler shrugged his shoulders.
The Russian spy network, including 'Lucy' in Switzerland, knew all about
the German plans. They built a 60-mile deep layer of defenses, including
mutually-supporting anti-tank gun emplacements called 'pak-fronts'.
Millions of mines, hundreds of tanks and hundreds of thousands of troops
packed into a relatively small area. The day before the assault began, the Red Army artillery zeroed in on the staging areas for the Panzers, wiping out many tanks. This should have tipped off the Germans to forget it.
Instead, they attacked as scheduled. Many of the new Panthers and Ferdinands broke down even before they could get to the jump-off points.
Then they learned that the Ferdinands, which didn't have machine guns, were vulnerable to Russian infantry. The Germans did not have control of the air, so many tanks were lost to strafing and bombing.
The attack in the north was stopped at Ponyri, and never got very far.
The attack in the south was much bigger, and continued to penetrate further and further, but with dimmishing results each day. Finally, they ran into the 5th Guards Tank Army at Prokhorovka. Although the Germans destroyed more tanks that the Russians, tactically the Germans were stopped.
The Germans were stubbornly going to try another attack, but meanwhile Hitler had gotten news of the Allied invasion in Sicily. A new
front had opened, and troops had to be diverted to man it. Hitler cancelled any further attacks at Kursk, and the depleted panzer forces began to withdraw to defensive positions. While the Russians had significant forces in reserve after the battle, the Germans were bled
white. The way had been cleared for a continuous Red Army offensive for the rest of the war.

[zerkalli]

http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/avenue/vy75

[Hosenfield]

total tanks : 3,253 german, 7,360 russians

soviet air sorties accounted for 5.7% of german tank losses.


losses for kursk: 55,000 german causalites, 177,000 russian causalties

tank losses: 300 destroyed german tanks 1614 destroyed russian tanks

damaged tanks: 1,612 damaged german tanks, 2,700 damaged russian tanks.

these figures are from the new kursk book by glantz and house.

these stats are from recently released soviet/german archives.

this book is considered the most accurate book on kursk.

kursk is a german tactical victory, but strategic failure. it stiled offensive operations for good due to lost tanks. russia had triple the tank production then germany and had anglo-american lend lease to make up for losses.

a lot of german damaged tanks were from minefields, and swift recovery took time off the advance.

contrary to popular belief, the elefant was a success in its role: as an overwatch panzer. it remained at a long distance from the enemy. figures indicate that the elephant had 10 to 1 kill ratio against soviet armor.

[Commando Jordovski]

Wow, the Germans trippled their kills of the Russians.
The Germans were pretty strategic though flanking the Russians.

[StalingradK]

Once again, the work of concripts.

[Commando Jordovski]

Alot of the Germans were highly trained though, and alot of the russian soldiers were just conscripted villagers and workmen that had no knowledge of Battles.

[Hosenfield]

a big reason the kills were so large was that there were many tiger panzers in this battle: around 300. only 10 were lost!

and all the best elite panzer divisions were there:11th panzer, 2nd panzer, greater germany, das reich, totenkopf, lah. and this is before quality dropped in the fall of 1944. i believe the ss panzers were still all volunteer force at this time.

[Firefly]

Wow, the Germans trippled their kills of the Russians.
The Germans were pretty strategic though flanking the Russians.


Strategic? Im not sure I agree with this, the Soviets held all the Aces at Kursk and far from losing they played an excellent strategic game. They firstly ground down the Germans and then threw them back. From this point the Soviets never went back.

[Commando Jordovski]

Well the Germans where defiantly much more equipped and more expirienced then the average Russian Soldier.

[Hosenfield]

Wow, the Germans trippled their kills of the Russians.
The Germans were pretty strategic though flanking the Russians.


Strategic? Im not sure I agree with this, the Soviets held all the Aces at Kursk and far from losing they played an excellent strategic game. They firstly ground down the Germans and then through them back. From this point the Soviets never went back.

the kursk attack was a classic double envelopment blitzkrieg attack. it was very obvious, and "done before" attack.

as dr.glantz has pointed out, the germans weren't really ground down.
their panzer strengths after july 14 were still pretty strong. the total losses were only 300 panzers.

its that constant armor battle for two weeks causes tanks to start having engine trouble. many were withdrawn from the field getting their engines fixed(especially the "heavies").

the main thing was that the germans failed to connect the pincer move fast enough to avoid this, which gave time for the soviets to concentrate their surviving armor forces in the wedge, making a strong concentrated hedgehog position while the germans spread themselves thin.

by then, the allies invaded italy and hitler ordered several panzer divisions to pull out to change fronts to stop the allies from advancing too far in italy.

but a lot of the soviet strategic victory is due to the fact that the soviets could take their heavy losses due to supeior production and us lend lease. while the germans had many damaged panzers that took time to fix . ie, a lof of broken tank tracks thanks to minefields.

[Hanz Lutz]

No Soviets have 1 300 000 soldiers ,3600 tanks ,20 000 artillery pieces and 2 400 aircraft.
Germans only have 900 000 man 2 700 tanks and 2000 aircraft.

In this battle i think germans cant win.

[Hosenfield]

[quote=Commando Jordovski]Wow, the Germans trippled their kills of the Russians.
The Germans were pretty strategic though flanking the Russians.


Strategic? Im not sure I agree with this, the Soviets held all the Aces at Kursk and far from losing they played an excellent strategic game. They firstly ground down the Germans and then through them back. From this point the Soviets never went back.

the kursk attack was a classic double envelopment blitzkrieg attack. it was very obvious, and "done before" attack.

as dr.glantz has pointed out, the germans weren't really ground down.
their panzer strengths after july 14 were still pretty strong. the total losses were only 300 panzers.

its that constant armor battle for two weeks causes tanks to start having engine trouble. many were withdrawn from the field getting their engines fixed(especially the "heavies").

the main thing was that the germans failed to connect the pincer move fast enough to avoid this, which gave time for the soviets to concentrate their surviving armor forces in the wedge, making a strong concentrated hedgehog position while the germans spread themselves thin.

by then, the allies invaded italy and hitler ordered several panzer divisions to pull out to change fronts to stop the allies from advancing too far in italy.

but a lot of the soviet strategic victory is due to the fact that the soviets could take their heavy losses due to supeior production and us lend lease. while the germans had many damaged panzers that took time to fix . ie, a lot of broken tank tracks thanks to minefields. this gave the russians a window of opportunity which allowed them to counterattack against sparse opposition (few operational tanks, many in repair/engine overhaul)and regain lost territory.

[chase]

Kursk was not blitzkreig. The blitzkreig failed in the first year of Barbarossa and was never tried again (on the Ostfront). Kursk used the armored wedge attack.

Kursk never had a chance. Zhukov had it all planned out. The germans were doomed the minute they organized the assualt. And waiting the extra weeks didn't help them either.

And as for the German losses compared to Russian losses. This isn't surprising, considering the Germans had much superior equipment, planes, and tanks. That didn't effect the Russian defensive and strategic advantage, though. And then Zhukovs plan of operation Bagration immediately after Kursk finished the killing blow to the German's possibility of a victory in Russia.

read "The Tigers Are Burning" by Martin Caiden. Very good book on Kursk.

[Firefly]

Op Bagration took place in 1944?

http://operation-bagration.biography.ms/

[FW-190 Pilot]

i remember rommel has recommand hitler to test more of his tiger tank before deploying them to combat, but hitler just say no to that

[Cuts]

i remember rommel has recommand hitler to test more of his tiger tank before deploying them to combat, but hitler just say no to that

You're older than I thought FW !
:wink:

[PzKpfw VI Tiger]

i remember rommel has recommand hitler to test more of his tiger tank before deploying them to combat, but hitler just say no to that

You're older than I thought FW !
:wink:

:lol: :lol: Apparently!

[Hosenfield]

"tigers are burning".... This may be an outdated book. Only 10 tigers were lost at kursk. Overall, this battle was executed well tactically by the germans but overall was part of a defunct strategy.

[HG]

The Kursk offensive were exelantly thought of and executed almost perfectly but, the Germans were in to deep and the Russian army crushed the Germans because everything was in there faviour. Artilary, numbers of tanks, ground forces and airpower over Kursk was way better than that of the Germans. The problem with the Tiger tank and the Panther was that they did not function great in wet conditions, they got stuck. The Ferdinant, Elefant and most of the other mobile artilary did not have guns in front to fight off the Russian infantry from attacking the Panzers and thus made them efective.

The Tigers and Panthers were knocked out by the shear numbers of T-34's and not by shitty armour. The T-34 did not matck the strenth of the German Tigers and Panthers were better thatn that of the Russian T-34 but, the T-34 were more reliable thatn the Tigers and the Panthers in the machanical feild.

The tactics that the Germans used was great but they did not have the numbers that the Russian army had and thus could not keep the offensive up and going.

Henk

[chase]

I don't doubt the precissness of the German's tactics.
But they were in a hole too deep to crawl out of.

[Hosenfield]

I think several author's view on the Ferdinand may be the result of soviet propoganda.

This Tank destroyer was deployed in the overwatch role and not sent near enemy forces.

Its powerful cannon gave it massive range and accuracy and gave the ferdinand a 10 to 1 kill ratio over soviet armor.

Overall it was a success, but the germans perferred the Tiger panzer more, which had more roles.

[FW-190 Pilot]

i remember rommel has recommand hitler to test more of his tiger tank before deploying them to combat, but hitler just say no to that

You're older than I thought FW !
:wink:

:lol: :lol: Apparently!
lol to that :lol:

[Hosenfield]

how old are you fw?

[Twitch1]

Kursk was simply an illustration of what Guderian had always maintained about armor- It makes no difference if your tank is worth 4 of the enemy's when he has 5. That axiom held true ona all front throughout the war. Plain and simple.

http://www.animationlibrary.com/Animation11/Transportation/Heavy_Machinery/Tank.gif

[Sturmfuhrer]

......... with their newest king tiger tank. The soviet knew their tank is not powerful enough to penatrate king tiger armour.......

The King Tiger was not used in the battle of Kursk. Just the regualar Tiger tank. The King Tiger was mostly used on the Western front. Dont think it came out untill mid to late 44

Yes, you are right! Production of King Tiger began in december 1943 and fist tanks reached army units on february 1944. First time they were used in august 1944. Till the end of war 489 King Tiger were produced.

Concerning where King Tigers were used mostly:

During the war to make up losses to easten front were sent 276 King Tiger, to West front were sent 194 King Tiger, to training unit 15 King Tiger. So your information seems to be not absolutely right :D

[Firefly]

Kursk was simply an illustration of what Guderian had always maintained about armor- It makes no difference if your tank is worth 4 of the enemy's when he has 5. That axiom held true ona all front throughout the war. Plain and simple.

http://www.animationlibrary.com/Animation11/Transportation/Heavy_Machinery/Tank.gif


Slight correction. That axiom didnt hold true for 1939-1943(mid). I suppose when the other nations cottened on to the German doctrine thats when it all changed.

[Sturmfuhrer]

The soviet knew their tank is not powerful enough to penatrate king tiger armour, so they let their tank rush to German tank and ask for close range combat.


Didn`t you read about IS-2? It could resist Tiger 2 if not as equal than very near to it.
First time when Tiger 2 were used on East front in august 1944 (Sandomir, Poland). This is a story what happened there:

This history cannot be carried to the unknown pages of war. However, the precisely repeated retelling of the occurred events by the works of regular domestic propagandists and the known tendency of our society toward the myths and the legends they played unfavorable role, after burying real events under the heap of the devised "details", as a rule, the same picturesque and distant from the reality. In different publications both our memoirs, and popular science, describing the first encounter tankers with the "royal tigers", plausible remains perhaps that very fact of that occurred. But in other respects the authors disperse even in the date of event, to say nothing of the number of those lost in the Germans of the tanks, "which go for a walk" on the taste of the authors, from two units to three dozen combat vehicles. Somebody assigns participation in this battle even of designer f.Porshe himself (by the way, straight relation to this tank of that not had). Not to find the authentic picture of events and in the western sources, inclined not to note the defeats of Wehrmacht at the eastern Front and already that it is more deficiencies in its technology. But meanwhile results it is combat on the Sandomir bridgehead they exceeded even the most daring their retellings. Preserved in TSAMO RF the combat reports and the reports of August of 1944 make it possible to restore the arrangement of forces and the reliable course of events. To 10 August, 1944, the forces of the 1st Ukrainian front, boosting r. the Vistula, broke through the enemy defense southwest of Polish city Sandomir and, after overturning the parts of the 4th tank hostile Army, they considerably enlarged bridgehead. Attempting to restore the lost positions on the western shore r. of the Vistula, Germans urgently moved into the region of Sandomir of five divisions (including one tank) from the army group "South Ukraine", five infantry divisions from Germany, three infantry divisions from Hungary and six brigades of the assault guns. Being prepared for the German counterattack, Soviet command accomplished troop regrouping, urgently were raised defensive strengthenings and the mine fields were established. From 11 August, prednamerenno after going away of that previously undertaken of the place Of shidluv and village Of oglenduv, send to defense and part of the 6th guard armored corps (GvTK), the 3rd guard tank army (GvTA). Bridgehead was by this time uneven, that is abutted against r. the Vistula the semiring, in center of which took up defense 53-4 guard tank brigade (GvTBr), left flank of which adjoined 52nd GvTBr. To unearth for the machines of the shelter of complete profile in the sandy soils did not succeed - the walls of entrenchments here crumbled. Numerous troubles this locality reached to Germans. Our tankers repeatedly observed how in the sands frequently skidded "panthers" and as to their drivers with the attempt to be selected it was necessary to substitute weak side armor of its machines under the fire of our troops. In previous combat for Shidluv and Oglenduv these maneuvers of "panthers" helped to apply to enemy the serious losses (only for 11 August of 1944 by tankers 53-1 GvTBr it was destroyed 8 tanks of enemy). Therefore on 12 August the commander of 53-1 GvTBr Colonel V.S.Arkhipov with their chief of staff S.I.Kirilkinym, they came to the conclusion that the enemy along the open sandy fields no longer will go, but he will try to go around the positions of brigade from the flanks. Before 2- m the tank battalion (TB) of Major a.G.Korobov entire locality was in sight. On by right the flank, where took up defense tanks T -34 3rd TB of captain i.M.Mazurin it were pulled deep and wide is hollow, according to whom of the village Of oglenduv to the place Of stashuv into the rear of our troops passed field road. Beyond the hollow was located the swamp, where went over to the defensive 294 the rifle regiment (SP) of 97 rifle divisions (SD). The pulled in the low place road, which derived directly to the purpose, could not prove to be without the attention of Germans. In order to cover this way the command of brigade it decided at the output from the hollow on the slopes of nameless hill to place in the ambush two tanks T -34 from 3rd TB, after charging to command it to the deputy commander of the battalion of guards captain p.T.Ivushkin. The remaining tanks of battalion were located in the kilometer from Oglenduv. However, assumptions about the intentions of enemy obtained confirmation already in the first reports of reconnaissance, which in the expected directions of the advancement of enemy conducted the patrols and three bronegruppy on the tanks and the motorcycles. In the intelligence report № of 53 staffs of 6 GvTK, comprised into on 19.00 13 August it communicated: "on the night with 12 to 13.08 in the region of zap.Shidluv are seized prisoners sergeant-major, who belongs to 1 company of 501 separate heavy tank battalion RGK, and series, who belongs to 10 companies 79 MP Y'TD, undertaken in Ponik region. Sergeant-major showed that to st.Koneupol' after unloading of 501 separate heavy tank battalion RGK was unloaded the tank division of unknown to him numeration. 501 TB consist of three TR and company of supply... Battalion arrived in the composition of 40 tanks, 20 of them type "panther" even 20 - T- willows. In the hop field it arrived to 30 tanks, rest malfunctioned and they require easy repair ". The arrival of 501 separate heavy tank battalion under the command of Major von legat, by itself spoke about the much. During July - August of 1944 the battalion passed reformation in the training center in Ordrufe (Ohrdruf) and was obtained new materiel - the pride of German tank designers, by those in good time betrothed "annihilating" - tanks "Tigris- B". However, the low reliability of "damp" machine (to develop which they began as early as 1942, but so they did not bring to the "mind") it led to the fact that for the eastern Front on 5 August the battalion was sent not in full strength, 14 tanks with different troubles were concentrated in 1 company, which remained in the training center. On 9 August battalion arrived to Poland and was unloaded at Konsupol' station in the city district Kel'tse. As showed prisoners of 40 tanks, only half was heavy "Tigris- B", whereas rest - not to send into the offensive battalion with the forces, hardly with those exceeding tank company - at the last moment supplemented Pz Kpfw THE IV (word of prisoners about the arrival of "panthers" they were, most likely, the attempt to hide from the enemy appearance at the front of secret novelty). In the course of short march from the station of unloading to the staff 16 TD, located in region hop field, on three kilometers of way remained 10 defective tanks. After spending the pair of days on repair and the preparation of materiel, the battalion on 11 August after completing 2- km march, it reached the place Of shidluv. Since the march was again accompanied by breakdowns in the new machines, then to the outcome of day in the system of battalion were located only 11 proper tanks "Tigris- B" - to which it was necessary to accept the baptism of fire in the offensive to Stashuv. It is here necessary to note that the forces of the 6th Of gvTK by no means ensured to our tankers of the significant numerical superiority: Germans resisted 9 combat-effective T -34-76 of 53 GvTBr, 9 T -34-76 and 10 T -34-85 of 52 GvTbr, and occupied (on the north) defense 51 GvTBr in its composition had 11 tanks T -34-76 and 4 tanks T -34-85. In Stashuva were located also 11 heavy tanks IS -2 and 1 tank IS -85, belonged 71 OGvTTP. From the middle of night with 12 on 13 August increasingly more distinctly reached the increasing rumble of tank engines in the depth of German positions. Before the dawn the commander 53-1 GvTBr returned from the staff to his tank, which served observation post and located in the battle formations 1st TB, whose machines hid the bank of low sandy dunes in front to the right it stretched hollow with the departed to Stashuv road. In the field were to the left scattered the shocks of the straws, in which they were they disguised the tanks Of ivushkina. Nearer to the output from the hollow it stood Junior Lieutenant a.P.Os'kin's "T-34 tank", into crew of whom they entered: driver A.Stetsenko, the gunner Of a.Merkhaydarov, radio operator a.Grushin and loading A.Khalychev. Colonel Arkhipov with The the ivushkinym in a low crawl they were selected to the shock, which hid tank, and, after discussing with The the os'kinym, they ordered without the command fire not to open. Diagram of the layout of the German tanks, hit by the parts of 6 GvTK of 11-13 August of 1944 in the region of m.Stashuv Diagram are combat 6 GvTK of 11-13 August of 1944 in the region of m.Stashuv The morning was issued by misty. From the observation post of commander 53-1 of brigade were no longer visible neither outskirts of the village Of oglenduva nor hollow nor even shocks of straw with the disguised tanks. The slowly increasing roar of tank engines interrupted the silence of the early morning, and soon became audible and the being approached clank of caterpillars. From air floated the rumble of the "Junkerss", who go to Stashuv. After the fact German artillery opened fire, but projectiles were carried highly above the forward edge of brigade. Reconnaissance of enemy so could not reveal the battle formations of 53-1 TBr, to say nothing of ambush. In on 7.00 13 August the enemy under the cover of fog went over to the offensive to nameless hill 11 by tanks "Tigris- B" in tracking of several armored carriers with the infantry. Ivushkin reported on NP: "tanks send. I do not see, but I hear. They go by hollow ". This is how further course of events described commander himself 53-1 GvTBr: "monstrous sizes tank was selected from the hollow. It crawled to the lift by jerks, skidding in the sand. The Major of the ducts wired from the left flank: - they go. I answer: - not to hurry. To beat from four hundred it is meter. Meanwhile from the hollow crept out the second huge thing, then seemed the third. They appeared with the significant spaces: thus far left the hollow the third tank, the first already passed the ambush Of ivushkina, "to beat?" - it asked. - "beat!" I see, as the side of the shock, where stands the tank Of os'kina, slightly stirred. Rolled down downward sheaf, became visible cannon stem. It twitched itself, then still and still. Os'kin conducted fire. 4 distinctly it saw into the binoculars, as in the starboards of enemy tanks black holes appeared. Here and hazes it seemed, and flame flared up. The third tank unrolled by front to Os'kinu, but, after giving a ride on the perebitoy caterpillar, it stopped and it was finished... ... I transfer by the radio: "307 - 305". Signal general, struck by the direct laying immediately of ten three it was trunk. Yes even howitzer battalions covered hollow with the high angle fire, and it for entire elongation to Oglenduva was hidden in the clouds of smoke and sandy dust ". Appeared the "Junkerss" and "Messerschmitts", almost simultaneously - our destroyers. Battle in air boiled. 2-1 TB Of korobova during the day conducted battle with the tanks of enemy west of height 247,9. To the outcome of day 53-4 brigades took up defense on its southern part - 300 m are eastern than the village Of oglenduv in the readiness for the offensive in the direction to Shedluv. 2 tanks 3rd TB with the company of sub-machine gunners in ten in the evening attacked the village, from which at eight A.M. it was possible to completely clean enemy. After which 3rd TB it were fastened in the outskirts. Among the trophies undertaken in the village proved to be the German tanks detached after unsuccessful attack. Here that was explained that it was necessary to conduct battle with the newest German tanks (by misty morning to be investigated was there is no time, and in the first reports, after computing the burning tanks, they reported destruction three "panthers"). 2-1 TB in interaction with 2-1 tank company of 71 OGvTTP and 289 SP into 9.00 began offensive in the direction to the neck. Located west Of oglenduva "Tiger- B" by their fire they intercepted to advancing infantry. Then the platoon of the tanks IS -122 of guards of Senior Lieutenant klimenkov, was advanced forward and from the deliberate positions opened fire on the tanks of enemy, as a result of the brief battle Of klimenkov one tank it burnt and one lined. After this, the infantry, without meeting strong resistance, entered into Oglenduv, where attained enemy tanks 3rd TB. Simultaneously 7 tanks "Tigris- B" attacked our positions from the direction of height 272,1. Lain in ambush in the bushes east Mokre on the tank IS -122, gv.st.l- that Of udalov (gv.st.l- t of udalov warred on IS -122 with the the tower № 98, that had gun D -25. - note of the authors) it allowed to approach the tanks of enemy on 700 - 800 m, opened fire on the head and one tank was burnt after several well-aimed shots, and the second was hit. The tanks of enemy turned away and began to be moved away. Udalov it derived its machine by forest road towards the enemy and from the edge of the woods again opened fire. After leaving one additional burning tank, enemy turned back. Soon the attack of "royal tigers" was repeated, this time they dispatch in the direction Of ponik, where stood in the ambush tank IS -122 gv.l- that Belyakova, which opened fire from the distance of 1000 m and tank lit up by the third projectile. Vidya and here disastrous for the offensive direction, the remained tanks of enemy turned back. In all in three days of continuous in the period from 11 to 13 August, 1944, in the region of the places Of stashuv and Shidluv by troops of the 6th Of gvTK was combat seized and destroyed 24 enemy tanks, 13 of which there were the newest heavy tanks "Tigris- B". Besides this, as it follows from the reports of parts and connections of housing about the prisoners and the trophies, seized in the enemy: "in the period from 9 to 19 August, 1944, of 52 GvTBr it captivated 7 and destroyed 225 soldiers and officers, destroyed one machine gun, took 3 guns, destroyed 6 tanks and 10 cargo motor vehicles, two spets.mashiny". "53 TBr from 1 to 29 August, 1944, destroyed 8 ober- officers, 37 non-comissioned officers, 153 soldiers, took 2 non-comissioned officers, 6" royal tigers "and destroyed: 1 aircraft, 12 tanks, 29 howitzers, 150 rifles, 7 automata, 20 machine guns, 4 mortars even 2 guns ". It is necessary to note, that this success was those more impressing, that the subdivisions of the 6th Of gvTK in these combat lost not their one tank. The losses of enemy, only it is later, were confirmed and the razvedsvodkoy № 39 staffs of 6 GvTK, composed on 16 August into 19.00.: "16.08 in the region is at one sitting seized prisoner, who belongs to 501 heavy tank battalion. Prisoner showed that 501 separate heavy tank battalion was formed in Germany, were obtained 40 new tanks to 20 of "royal tigers" and to 20 types "t-th". In the region the hop field battalion arrived two weeks ago. At present in the battalion it remained to 26 tanks, rest were burnt and hit. Prisoner, besides his tanks, saw the tanks "Tigris" of another part. Unit numbers the prisoner does not know ". On the recollections of commander 53-1 GvTBr: "... who lined and how much - a question difficult, since fire conducted the tankers of two battalions - I.M.Mazurina and A.G.Korobova, and attached to us two artillery (185-1 howitzer and 1645-1 light) two motorized artillery (1893-1 and 385-1) regiments. Attack aviation excellently worked. The crew Of os'kina it burnt three tanks, one lined. Itself Aleksandr Petrovich was honored the Title of Hero of the Soviet Union, Abubakir Of merkhaydarov - the Order of Lenin. Were noted by rewards all members of crew ". After battle the commander 2- GO tb of ducts composed the report, in which he indicated that "about 20 large tanks began in the joint of its battalion and 51-1 guard Of tBr". Is legitimate a question, and where did get to remaining "royal tigers"? By them so it did not transport. They burn into the ambush, arranged by command 52nd GvTBr, which occupied defense on the left flank of the 6th Of gvTK. 2-1 TB of this brigade Major a.N.Golomidova on 12 August was located on the edge of the woods in the region of hamlet To mokre, located several kilometers west Stashuv. Nearer toward the evening battalion commander summoned company commander st. l- that V.I.Tokareva and, point the map, it ordered to organize ambush. In the kilometer from the battle formations of battalion, in the region of high-rise with the bushes, two tanks, headed by company commander, arose into the ambush. Entire night on 13 August tank crews conducted without the sleep. Then "T-34 tanks" were partially dug in into the earth among the shocks from the sheaves of bread. To reveal both machines was practically impossible. This is how further course of events described the commander of the 52nd guard Rostov tank brigade the Hero of the Soviet Union of guards in sequence- to L.I. It kurist: "early in the morning in the sky appeared the so-called" frame "- enemy observation aircraft. It flew above our region and was hidden a little pogodya enemy it opened strong artillery fire. Projectiles with the whistle flew above head of tankers and were torn up behind - in the edge of the woods and the outskirts of neighbor village. - now will grant the "tigers" yes of "panther", said Tokarev, when film ceased. - I will be in the entrenchment, from there more visible. But you, Georgiy (Komarichev - Senior Sergeant, the spotter of the instrument of the tank of company commander), be on the alert. ... Komarichev and Dzhoparidze (loading napryazhenno scrutinized far, from where the roar of motors reached. After several minutes they saw how because of the hill appeared the armored machines, which go from the hollow around height, substituting board to our tanks. Apparently, Germans even did not assume that here there can be the ambush. - five, six, seven... twelve... - counted Komarichev. - Tengiz! Twenty! You understand, twenty! But after them - infantry. - Nothing, Zhora. We - guardsmen! - give armor-piercing! Enemy tanks noted the crew of Junior Lieutenant stepan Kraylova. Tankers decided to allow to approach enemy up to the close distance in order to beat for sure. When Hitlerites proved to be meters in five hundred, Komarichev and Kraynev opened fire. From the shot Of komaricheva caught fire one "tiger", Kraynev lined another. Fascists made the desperate attempts to be opened to the edge of the woods. Tanks took only more left. However, this did not help: the burning and hit machines remained in the battlefield. Suffering large losses, Germans trembled, tanks unrolled and began to gradually retire. From further attempts to begin on the boundary, occupied with brigade, they refused. The incandescence of that battle it is possible to judge at least because the tank crews consumed almost all projectiles. On the calculation Of komaricheva and Dzhaparidze it was eight destroyed "tigers" and "panthers". Kraynov lined six. ... after entering the opposition with the enemy... our tankers destroyed 14 tanks, more than 50 Hitlerites, and the main thing - they tore away the counterattack of enemy in their section ". Unfortunately, both commanders of tank brigades in their recollections did not separately indicate a precise quantity destroyed and hit "royal tigers". According to the latest data, published in the book the "tactics of the action of tanks the Tigris -1 and Tigris -11" English researcher Thomas dzhemtza, the week after battle on 21 August, 1944, in the system of 501 tank battalion were counted 12 proper tanks the Tigris -.ll, 27 tanks required repair, and six tanks the Tigris -.II were forever lost. However, citing these data the author somewhat it deceives by cunning. To the battlefield in Oglenduv, Mokre and Shidluv remained 12 tanks "Tigris- B". Today it appears from archive data, that during these it is combat it was possible to the head to destroy 501 separate battalion "Tiger- B", after taking in this case three completely proper machines of new model, with tower numbers 102, 502 and 234. Tank № 502 was discovered confronting in the court of house in the outskirts of the village Of oglenduv. The reason, for which the crew threw technically proper combat vehicle it remains obscure. Most likely, since the village Of oglenduv was undertaken by one swift of with a throw our tanks, the crew of the "royal tiger" simply panically ran, after leaving entire technical documentation inside the machine. In the tank complete fire unit and sufficient fuel stock was located. On the technical documentation obtained in it it was explained that tank passed only 444 km pri the attempt to neglect engine it it were brought "with the half turn". The seized tanks of №y02 and 502 were commander, since had the extra-budgetary resources of connection. Germans estimated that happening worthily, after removing von legata from the post after only the week. Soon in the front newspaper of the 6th Of gvTK "combat call" appeared editorial by subtitle - the "best in the world tanks - our, Soviet!". In it recent events on the Sandomir bridgehead so were illuminated: "... after seeing our, in everything exceeding, tanks, the Germans started to construct their clumsy and clumsy monsters -" tigers "," panthers "and" the Ferdinands ". But these machines on the previous was inferior and be inferior to the quality of Soviet machines. This is proven from the last battles, where the way of the retreat of the German armies of useyan by the fragments of the "tigers" and of another German technology. Did not frighten Soviet soldiers last German tanks of the type "T -via" "royal tiger". However, our tankers and artillerymen with the first encounter with them proved the absolute superiority of our combat vehicles against this, so-called, "secret" weapon of Germans. However, our valiant tankers Of os'kin, Udalov and fun in the first battle destroyed on several "royal tigers"... Experience is combat at the Soviet-German front it proved that the advantage of the Soviet tanks over German is explicit and is unquestionable. Our new tanks have the best gun, they possess high passability and maneuverability ". So was made the first step toward the creation of the legend, which overshaded the real and where more impressionable success of our tanker-soldiers. By reason for the complete fiasco of "royal tigers", so the not justified hopes of Germans in the environs of Sandomir, steel the skillful organization of defense and unquestionably the craftsmanship of our tankers. From other side, enemy brought numerous errors in the planning and the tactics, unsuccessful selection of direction for applying of heavy tanks, especially 70- ton "royal tigers". The desire to faster throw in the battle not brought to the "mind" "miracle- weapon" gave in the final analysis to the fact that sequential prepared by German "tank culinary specialists" the "pancake" so did not fall on table in the proper form.

[Dani]

Sturmfuhrer, add the source as well.

[Sturmfuhrer]

The soviet knew their tank is not powerful enough to penatrate king tiger armour, so they let their tank rush to German tank and ask for close range combat.

Didn`t you read about IS-2. It resisted Tiger 2 as equal or close to equal.
And even T-34-85 could knock out Tiger 2.
Here is a story as Germans used King Tiger on Easten front for the first time:
To 10 August, 1944, the forces of the 1st Ukrainian front, boosting r. the Vistula, broke through the enemy defense southwest of Polish city Sandomir and, after overturning the parts of the 4th tank hostile Army, they considerably enlarged bridgehead. Attempting to restore the lost positions on the western shore r. of the Vistula, Germans urgently moved into the region of Sandomir of five divisions (including one tank) from the army group "South Ukraine", five infantry divisions from Germany, three infantry divisions from Hungary and six brigades of the assault guns. Being prepared for the German counterattack, Soviet command accomplished troop regrouping, urgently were raised defensive strengthenings and the mine fields were established. From 11 August, prednamerenno after going away of that previously undertaken of the place Of shidluv and village Of oglenduv, send to defense and part of the 6th guard armored corps (GvTK), the 3rd guard tank army (GvTA). Bridgehead was by this time uneven, that is abutted against r. the Vistula the semiring, in center of which took up defense 53-4 guard tank brigade (GvTBr), left flank of which adjoined 52nd GvTBr. To unearth for the machines of the shelter of complete profile in the sandy soils did not succeed - the walls of entrenchments here crumbled. Numerous troubles this locality reached to Germans. Our tankers repeatedly observed how in the sands frequently skidded "panthers" and as to their drivers with the attempt to be selected it was necessary to substitute weak side armor of its machines under the fire of our troops. In previous combat for Shidluv and Oglenduv these maneuvers of "panthers" helped to apply to enemy the serious losses (only for 11 August of 1944 by tankers 53-1 GvTBr it was destroyed 8 tanks of enemy). Therefore on 12 August the commander of 53-1 GvTBr Colonel V.S.Arkhipov with their chief of staff S.I.Kirilkinym, they came to the conclusion that the enemy along the open sandy fields no longer will go, but he will try to go around the positions of brigade from the flanks. Before 2- m the tank battalion (TB) of Major a.G.Korobov entire locality was in sight. On by right the flank, where took up defense tanks T -34 3rd TB of captain i.M.Mazurin it were pulled deep and wide is hollow, according to whom of the village Of oglenduv to the place Of stashuv into the rear of our troops passed field road. Beyond the hollow was located the swamp, where went over to the defensive 294 the rifle regiment (SP) of 97 rifle divisions (SD). The pulled in the low place road, which derived directly to the purpose, could not prove to be without the attention of Germans. In order to cover this way the command of brigade it decided at the output from the hollow on the slopes of nameless hill to place in the ambush two tanks T -34 from 3rd TB, after charging to command it to the deputy commander of the battalion of guards captain p.T.Ivushkin. The remaining tanks of battalion were located in the kilometer from Oglenduv. However, assumptions about the intentions of enemy obtained confirmation already in the first reports of reconnaissance, which in the expected directions of the advancement of enemy conducted the patrols and three bronegruppy on the tanks and the motorcycles. In the intelligence report № of 53 staffs of 6 GvTK, comprised into on 19.00 13 August it communicated: "on the night with 12 to 13.08 in the region of zap.Shidluv are seized prisoners sergeant-major, who belongs to 1 company of 501 separate heavy tank battalion RGK, and series, who belongs to 10 companies 79 MP Y'TD, undertaken in Ponik region. Sergeant-major showed that to st.Koneupol' after unloading of 501 separate heavy tank battalion RGK was unloaded the tank division of unknown to him numeration. 501 TB consist of three TR and company of supply... Battalion arrived in the composition of 40 tanks, 20 of them type "panther" even 20 - T- willows. In the hop field it arrived to 30 tanks, rest malfunctioned and they require easy repair ". The arrival of 501 separate heavy tank battalion under the command of Major von legat, by itself spoke about the much. During July - August of 1944 the battalion passed reformation in the training center in Ordrufe (Ohrdruf) and was obtained new materiel - the pride of German tank designers, by those in good time betrothed "annihilating" - tanks "Tigris- B". However, the low reliability of "damp" machine (to develop which they began as early as 1942, but so they did not bring to the "mind") it led to the fact that for the eastern Front on 5 August the battalion was sent not in full strength, 14 tanks with different troubles were concentrated in 1 company, which remained in the training center. On 9 August battalion arrived to Poland and was unloaded at Konsupol' station in the city district Kel'tse. As showed prisoners of 40 tanks, only half was heavy "Tigris- B", whereas rest - not to send into the offensive battalion with the forces, hardly with those exceeding tank company - at the last moment supplemented Pz Kpfw THE IV (word of prisoners about the arrival of "panthers" they were, most likely, the attempt to hide from the enemy appearance at the front of secret novelty). In the course of short march from the station of unloading to the staff 16 TD, located in region hop field, on three kilometers of way remained 10 defective tanks. After spending the pair of days on repair and the preparation of materiel, the battalion on 11 August after completing 2- km march, it reached the place Of shidluv. Since the march was again accompanied by breakdowns in the new machines, then to the outcome of day in the system of battalion were located only 11 proper tanks "Tigris- B" - to which it was necessary to accept the baptism of fire in the offensive to Stashuv. It is here necessary to note that the forces of the 6th Of gvTK by no means ensured to our tankers of the significant numerical superiority: Germans resisted 9 combat-effective T -34-76 of 53 GvTBr, 9 T -34-76 and 10 T -34-85 of 52 GvTbr, and occupied (on the north) defense 51 GvTBr in its composition had 11 tanks T -34-76 and 4 tanks T -34-85. In Stashuva were located also 11 heavy tanks IS -2 and 1 tank IS -85, belonged 71 OGvTTP. From the middle of night with 12 on 13 August increasingly more distinctly reached the increasing rumble of tank engines in the depth of German positions. Before the dawn the commander 53-1 GvTBr returned from the staff to his tank, which served observation post and located in the battle formations 1st TB, whose machines hid the bank of low sandy dunes in front to the right it stretched hollow with the departed to Stashuv road. In the field were to the left scattered the shocks of the straws, in which they were they disguised the tanks Of ivushkina. Nearer to the output from the hollow it stood Junior Lieutenant a.P.Os'kin's "T-34 tank", into crew of whom they entered: driver A.Stetsenko, the gunner Of a.Merkhaydarov, radio operator a.Grushin and loading A.Khalychev. Colonel Arkhipov with The the ivushkinym in a low crawl they were selected to the shock, which hid tank, and, after discussing with The the os'kinym, they ordered without the command fire not to open. Diagram of the layout of the German tanks, hit by the parts of 6 GvTK of 11-13 August of 1944 in the region of m.Stashuv Diagram are combat 6 GvTK of 11-13 August of 1944 in the region of m.Stashuv The morning was issued by misty. From the observation post of commander 53-1 of brigade were no longer visible neither outskirts of the village Of oglenduva nor hollow nor even shocks of straw with the disguised tanks. The slowly increasing roar of tank engines interrupted the silence of the early morning, and soon became audible and the being approached clank of caterpillars. From air floated the rumble of the "Junkerss", who go to Stashuv. After the fact German artillery opened fire, but projectiles were carried highly above the forward edge of brigade. Reconnaissance of enemy so could not reveal the battle formations of 53-1 TBr, to say nothing of ambush. In on 7.00 13 August the enemy under the cover of fog went over to the offensive to nameless hill 11 by tanks "Tigris- B" in tracking of several armored carriers with the infantry. Ivushkin reported on NP: "tanks send. I do not see, but I hear. They go by hollow ". This is how further course of events described commander himself 53-1 GvTBr: "monstrous sizes tank was selected from the hollow. It crawled to the lift by jerks, skidding in the sand. The Major of the ducts wired from the left flank: - they go. I answer: - not to hurry. To beat from four hundred it is meter. Meanwhile from the hollow crept out the second huge thing, then seemed the third. They appeared with the significant spaces: thus far left the hollow the third tank, the first already passed the ambush Of ivushkina, "to beat?" - it asked. - "beat!" I see, as the side of the shock, where stands the tank Of os'kina, slightly stirred. Rolled down downward sheaf, became visible cannon stem. It twitched itself, then still and still. Os'kin conducted fire. 4 distinctly it saw into the binoculars, as in the starboards of enemy tanks black holes appeared. Here and hazes it seemed, and flame flared up. The third tank unrolled by front to Os'kinu, but, after giving a ride on the perebitoy caterpillar, it stopped and it was finished... ... I transfer by the radio: "307 - 305". Signal general, struck by the direct laying immediately of ten three it was trunk. Yes even howitzer battalions covered hollow with the high angle fire, and it for entire elongation to Oglenduva was hidden in the clouds of smoke and sandy dust ". Appeared the "Junkerss" and "Messerschmitts", almost simultaneously - our destroyers. Battle in air boiled. 2-1 TB Of korobova during the day conducted battle with the tanks of enemy west of height 247,9. To the outcome of day 53-4 brigades took up defense on its southern part - 300 m are eastern than the village Of oglenduv in the readiness for the offensive in the direction to Shedluv. 2 tanks 3rd TB with the company of sub-machine gunners in ten in the evening attacked the village, from which at eight A.M. it was possible to completely clean enemy. After which 3rd TB it were fastened in the outskirts. Among the trophies undertaken in the village proved to be the German tanks detached after unsuccessful attack. Here that was explained that it was necessary to conduct battle with the newest German tanks (by misty morning to be investigated was there is no time, and in the first reports, after computing the burning tanks, they reported destruction three "panthers"). 2-1 TB in interaction with 2-1 tank company of 71 OGvTTP and 289 SP into 9.00 began offensive in the direction to the neck. Located west Of oglenduva "Tiger- B" by their fire they intercepted to advancing infantry. Then the platoon of the tanks IS -122 of guards of Senior Lieutenant klimenkov, was advanced forward and from the deliberate positions opened fire on the tanks of enemy, as a result of the brief battle Of klimenkov one tank it burnt and one lined. After this, the infantry, without meeting strong resistance, entered into Oglenduv, where attained enemy tanks 3rd TB. Simultaneously 7 tanks "Tigris- B" attacked our positions from the direction of height 272,1. Lain in ambush in the bushes east Mokre on the tank IS -122, gv.st.l- that Of udalov (gv.st.l- t of udalov warred on IS -122 with the the tower № 98, that had gun D -25. - note of the authors) it allowed to approach the tanks of enemy on 700 - 800 m, opened fire on the head and one tank was burnt after several well-aimed shots, and the second was hit. The tanks of enemy turned away and began to be moved away. Udalov it derived its machine by forest road towards the enemy and from the edge of the woods again opened fire. After leaving one additional burning tank, enemy turned back. Soon the attack of "royal tigers" was repeated, this time they dispatch in the direction Of ponik, where stood in the ambush tank IS -122 gv.l- that Belyakova, which opened fire from the distance of 1000 m and tank lit up by the third projectile. Vidya and here disastrous for the offensive direction, the remained tanks of enemy turned back. In all in three days of continuous in the period from 11 to 13 August, 1944, in the region of the places Of stashuv and Shidluv by troops of the 6th Of gvTK was combat seized and destroyed 24 enemy tanks, 13 of which there were the newest heavy tanks "Tigris- B". Besides this, as it follows from the reports of parts and connections of housing about the prisoners and the trophies, seized in the enemy: "in the period from 9 to 19 August, 1944, of 52 GvTBr it captivated 7 and destroyed 225 soldiers and officers, destroyed one machine gun, took 3 guns, destroyed 6 tanks and 10 cargo motor vehicles, two spets.mashiny". "53 TBr from 1 to 29 August, 1944, destroyed 8 ober- officers, 37 non-comissioned officers, 153 soldiers, took 2 non-comissioned officers, 6" royal tigers "and destroyed: 1 aircraft, 12 tanks, 29 howitzers, 150 rifles, 7 automata, 20 machine guns, 4 mortars even 2 guns ". It is necessary to note, that this success was those more impressing, that the subdivisions of the 6th Of gvTK in these combat lost not their one tank. The losses of enemy, only it is later, were confirmed and the razvedsvodkoy № 39 staffs of 6 GvTK, composed on 16 August into 19.00.: "16.08 in the region is at one sitting seized prisoner, who belongs to 501 heavy tank battalion. Prisoner showed that 501 separate heavy tank battalion was formed in Germany, were obtained 40 new tanks to 20 of "royal tigers" and to 20 types "t-th". In the region the hop field battalion arrived two weeks ago. At present in the battalion it remained to 26 tanks, rest were burnt and hit. Prisoner, besides his tanks, saw the tanks "Tigris" of another part. Unit numbers the prisoner does not know ". On the recollections of commander 53-1 GvTBr: "... who lined and how much - a question difficult, since fire conducted the tankers of two battalions - I.M.Mazurina and A.G.Korobova, and attached to us two artillery (185-1 howitzer and 1645-1 light) two motorized artillery (1893-1 and 385-1) regiments. Attack aviation excellently worked. The crew Of os'kina it burnt three tanks, one lined. Itself Aleksandr Petrovich was honored the Title of Hero of the Soviet Union, Abubakir Of merkhaydarov - the Order of Lenin. Were noted by rewards all members of crew ". After battle the commander 2- GO tb of ducts composed the report, in which he indicated that "about 20 large tanks began in the joint of its battalion and 51-1 guard Of tBr". Is legitimate a question, and where did get to remaining "royal tigers"? By them so it did not transport. They burn into the ambush, arranged by command 52nd GvTBr, which occupied defense on the left flank of the 6th Of gvTK. 2-1 TB of this brigade Major a.N.Golomidova on 12 August was located on the edge of the woods in the region of hamlet To mokre, located several kilometers west Stashuv. Nearer toward the evening battalion commander summoned company commander st. l- that V.I.Tokareva and, point the map, it ordered to organize ambush. In the kilometer from the battle formations of battalion, in the region of high-rise with the bushes, two tanks, headed by company commander, arose into the ambush. Entire night on 13 August tank crews conducted without the sleep. Then "T-34 tanks" were partially dug in into the earth among the shocks from the sheaves of bread. To reveal both machines was practically impossible. This is how further course of events described the commander of the 52nd guard Rostov tank brigade the Hero of the Soviet Union of guards in sequence- to L.I. It kurist: "early in the morning in the sky appeared the so-called" frame "- enemy observation aircraft. It flew above our region and was hidden a little pogodya enemy it opened strong artillery fire. Projectiles with the whistle flew above head of tankers and were torn up behind - in the edge of the woods and the outskirts of neighbor village. - now will grant the "tigers" yes of "panther", said Tokarev, when film ceased. - I will be in the entrenchment, from there more visible. But you, Georgiy (Komarichev - Senior Sergeant, the spotter of the instrument of the tank of company commander), be on the alert. ... Komarichev and Dzhoparidze (loading napryazhenno scrutinized far, from where the roar of motors reached. After several minutes they saw how because of the hill appeared the armored machines, which go from the hollow around height, substituting board to our tanks. Apparently, Germans even did not assume that here there can be the ambush. - five, six, seven... twelve... - counted Komarichev. - Tengiz! Twenty! You understand, twenty! But after them - infantry. - Nothing, Zhora. We - guardsmen! - give armor-piercing! Enemy tanks noted the crew of Junior Lieutenant stepan Kraylova. Tankers decided to allow to approach enemy up to the close distance in order to beat for sure. When Hitlerites proved to be meters in five hundred, Komarichev and Kraynev opened fire. From the shot Of komaricheva caught fire one "tiger", Kraynev lined another. Fascists made the desperate attempts to be opened to the edge of the woods. Tanks took only more left. However, this did not help: the burning and hit machines remained in the battlefield. Suffering large losses, Germans trembled, tanks unrolled and began to gradually retire. From further attempts to begin on the boundary, occupied with brigade, they refused. The incandescence of that battle it is possible to judge at least because the tank crews consumed almost all projectiles. On the calculation Of komaricheva and Dzhaparidze it was eight destroyed "tigers" and "panthers". Kraynov lined six. ... after entering the opposition with the enemy... our tankers destroyed 14 tanks, more than 50 Hitlerites, and the main thing - they tore away the counterattack of enemy in their section ". Unfortunately, both commanders of tank brigades in their recollections did not separately indicate a precise quantity destroyed and hit "royal tigers". According to the latest data, published in the book the "tactics of the action of tanks the Tigris -1 and Tigris -11" English researcher Thomas dzhemtza, the week after battle on 21 August, 1944, in the system of 501 tank battalion were counted 12 proper tanks the Tigris -.ll, 27 tanks required repair, and six tanks the Tigris -.II were forever lost. However, citing these data the author somewhat it deceives by cunning. To the battlefield in Oglenduv, Mokre and Shidluv remained 12 tanks "Tigris- B". Today it appears from archive data, that during these it is combat it was possible to the head to destroy 501 separate battalion "Tiger- B", after taking in this case three completely proper machines of new model, with tower numbers 102, 502 and 234. Tank № 502 was discovered confronting in the court of house in the outskirts of the village Of oglenduv. The reason, for which the crew threw technically proper combat vehicle it remains obscure. Most likely, since the village Of oglenduv was undertaken by one swift of with a throw our tanks, the crew of the "royal tiger" simply panically ran, after leaving entire technical documentation inside the machine. In the tank complete fire unit and sufficient fuel stock was located. On the technical documentation obtained in it it was explained that tank passed only 444 km pri the attempt to neglect engine it it were brought "with the half turn". The seized tanks of №y02 and 502 were commander, since had the extra-budgetary resources of connection. Germans estimated that happening worthily, after removing von legata from the post after only the week. Soon in the front newspaper of the 6th Of gvTK "combat call" appeared editorial by subtitle - the "best in the world tanks - our, Soviet!". In it recent events on the Sandomir bridgehead so were illuminated: "... after seeing our, in everything exceeding, tanks, the Germans started to construct their clumsy and clumsy monsters -" tigers "," panthers "and" the Ferdinands ". But these machines on the previous was inferior and be inferior to the quality of Soviet machines. This is proven from the last battles, where the way of the retreat of the German armies of useyan by the fragments of the "tigers" and of another German technology. Did not frighten Soviet soldiers last German tanks of the type "T -via" "royal tiger". However, our tankers and artillerymen with the first encounter with them proved the absolute superiority of our combat vehicles against this, so-called, "secret" weapon of Germans. However, our valiant tankers Of os'kin, Udalov and fun in the first battle destroyed on several "royal tigers"... Experience is combat at the Soviet-German front it proved that the advantage of the Soviet tanks over German is explicit and is unquestionable. Our new tanks have the best gun, they possess high passability and maneuverability ". So was made the first step toward the creation of the legend, which overshaded the real and where more impressionable success of our tanker-soldiers.

[Sturmfuhrer]

The soviet knew their tank is not powerful enough to penatrate king tiger armour, so they let their tank rush to German tank and ask for close range combat.

Also russian tankers used ram attack that as a rule caused death to both crews.

[Hosenfield]

The IS-2 had serious problems that made it inferior to the Tiger II.

It could only carry 28 rounds, had a very slow firing speed, roughly 3 rounds a minute.

The cannon, while powerful, did not have the optics or accuracy of the gun o the Tiger II either.

[Panzer Ace]

Germany should of sat back on the eastern front..... built a strong defensive line ... and waited for Stalin to become impatient and force him to launch an attack. Hitlers generals were nervous about the operation from day 1....Why didnt he ever listen to them?!?!
At the same time... Hitler should of sent reinforcements to Italy and wait for the invasion to come.... then destroy it.

1943 could still be the year that the Germans turn things around.... Russia needed successes..... if they were forced to attack..... things could of went either way....

[Firefly]

The IS-2 had serious problems that made it inferior to the Tiger II.

It could only carry 28 rounds, had a very slow firing speed, roughly 3 rounds a minute.

The cannon, while powerful, did not have the optics or accuracy of the gun o the Tiger II either.

Tue true mate, 3 rounds a minute was exceptional, lucky if they could get of 1 1/2 a minute in reality, 2 part ammo etc...

Then again the JS wasnt meant to directly fight the Tigers. The JS were distributed at roughly 1-10 with the T34-85.

[Panzerknacker]

The IS-2 had serious problems that made it inferior to the Tiger II.

It could only carry 28 rounds, had a very slow firing speed, roughly 3 rounds a minute.

The cannon, while powerful, did not have the optics or accuracy of the gun o the Tiger II either.

Correct data but the Iosif Stalin II was no available at the time of kursk, there was intead about 400 KV-1, KV-2 and a handful of British Churchills MK-IV/V.

Churchill Mk.IV of the 49th Guard Heavy Tank Regiment of the 18th Guard Tank Corps of the 5th Guard Tank Army passes a destroyed SdKfz 232. Kharkov area. July 1943.

http://www.battlefield.ru/lend_tank/churchil_2.jpg

Churchill Mk.III of the 36th Guard Heavy Tank Regiment of the 18th Guard Tank Corps of the 5th Guard Tank Army destroyed at Prokhorovka area. July 1943.

http://www.battlefield.ru/lend_tank/churchil_3.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

Column of Panzer III M destroyed the well entrenched soviet AT guns.

http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/295/panzerdestrozados9wy.jpg

http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/6575/panzeriii3my.jpg

http://img435.imageshack.us/img435/7784/panzeriiidestruid0rb.jpg


Panther destroyed....By his own crew maybe ?

http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/1857/pantherdestruido3sv.jpg[/quote]

[HG]

Nice pictures Panzerknacker. The Panzer III also got hit pretty badly, but dam those T-34 got the worst of it all.

Henk

[Ace]

The Panthers that were used at Kursk had engines that overheated and caught fire. Maybe the pic is of one that caught fire. What is certain is that the Pather's ammo had to cook off inorder for the turret to get blown off. Neither the IS-2 or King Tiger was used at Kursk. The King Tiger wasn't that great either http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=282&Itemid=123&lang=en.

[HG]

Ace mate, the Panther was the best of them all. A T-34 are not even the tank if it come to the Panther and the King Tiger. The King Tiger had engine problems and being thus underpowerd.

Well mate if you take it was 122 mm guns and the things said their does not sound like all the other books, websites I have read. Thes testing of the tank is not the same as in battle and the speed they say does not sound right, unless it was mud.

Ace mate we have duscussed thus before and you can find it here somewhere, but I will get back to you about it.

Henk

[Panzerknacker]

The Panthers .D suffers more than 50 % casualties in Kursk due his bad transmition and overheating issues. Even more than those inflicted for the T-34s and KV.

Some Panther when stopped by the mechanical failures continue to using his long 75 mm gun as an static Antitank gun.

Eventually much of those had to be abandoned by his crew and became complete loss when the russian regain the terrain.

[Panzerknacker]

Kursk defences.

http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/5305/defensas3we.jpg

Military band entertain some russian women digging an antitank ditch

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/9079/defensas26pj.jpg

Russian obserbation post.

http://img304.imageshack.us/img304/6121/puestoobservacionruso2rn.jpg

Soviet soldiers waiting the attack with heavy MG and antitank rifles.

http://img304.imageshack.us/img304/2513/trincherasovietica3nb.jpg

14,5 mm simonov s crew ready to battle.

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/985/ptrs2qo.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

"The Tigers trap" two T-34 ready to ambush the german columns near orel city.

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/1648/t34enterrados7cy.jpg

[HG]

I wonder how successfull those traps were.

Henk

[Firefly]

The Panthers that were used at Kursk had engines that overheated and caught fire. Maybe the pic is of one that caught fire. What is certain is that the Pather's ammo had to cook off inorder for the turret to get blown off. Neither the IS-2 or King Tiger was used at Kursk. The King Tiger wasn't that great either http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=282&Itemid=123&lang=en.

I found something on the Panther a while back from another website (cant remember where, think it was a gaming site). However I cant find any references so it may not be as sound as it may read. I add it here as if there is any truth in it, it dispells a little Panther Myth at Kursk:

There were about 200 MKVs in the OOB of the 39th Panzer Brigade which was attached to the XLVIII Pz Korps.Most of the ones that saw combat were with the Gross Deutschland Division.There were no Panthers with the SS Corps and there were none in the 9th Army on the north face(they had the Ferdinands and Brumbarrs).There were also no Panthers with Army detachment Kempf.

On the approach march to the deployment area two Panthers caught fire and were completely destroyed.Between 5 and 9 July another 4 faced a similar fate.The fires were apparently caused by self igniton in the engine room.There were 28 Panthers listed as completely destroyed on July 10 and almost 25% of them were not attributable to enemy action.

During the first 5 days of the offensive the tank repair coys(2) of the 39th brigade received 81 Panthers which had been damaged by other than enemy action.The repairs included completely new engines and repairs to defects in hydraulic,steering,and transmission systems.Another frequent problem was defective seals and gaskets which resulted in leaks of flammable substances.When added to an engine with an inefficient cooling system,a hit in the engine compartment was very likely to lead to the complete loss of the vehicle.

There were other problems of a non-technical nature.There seems to have been little or no training as units.This resulted in units taking insufficient care of flank protection.Also, the units seem not to have been properly led.Contrary to German practice attacks were conducted without situation briefings.Seems that not even company commanders were always clear about attack directions and objectives.Lastly the radio equipment appears to not have been properly tested and many of them actually malfunctioned which caused communications within the battalions to be quite unsatisfactory.There were no training exercises with units greater than platoon and the drivers,gunners and commanders received insufficient training.

Despite these deficiencies there were positives to report.From 5-15 July the 48th Pz Korps reports destroying or capturing 559 enemy tanks.Of these the Panthers reportedly destroyed 269.Hence, they accounted for almost half of the tank kills for the entire corps.Equally impressive are the ranges of the kills.The average distance appears to have been between 1500 and 2000 meters with occasional kills of KVs at 3000 meters.Most of the time the Panthers constituted about 20% of the operational tanks for the corps.They appear to have been the most efficient tank killers and thier anti-tank capabilities were only matched by the Ferdinands of 9th Army.

Once the problems were rectified it made the Panther a very formidable weapon indeed.Of course it was too late and many of the losses at Kursk can be considered unnecessary.

[Panzerknacker]

Some interesting "Lend and Lease" materiel present in this gigantic battle and used by the CCCP.

M-3 Lee/Grant

The russian learn to hate this tank, they call it "the grave of six brothers"...compare that with the nickname of "Bolt Bucket" assigned by the U.S soldiers in North Afrika, The Grant could be penetrated even by the 50 mm kwk used in the Pz II and the PAK 38.

http://x402.putfile.com/2/5218350259.jpg

http://x402.putfile.com/2/5218414485.jpg


Churchill Mk-III/IV, well armored , good trench and ditch crossing capabilities ( It was designed for that), but terribly slow and outgunned ( The 6 pounder cannot fire HE ammo until 1944) aniway the ruskies like it because it did not explode went hit and it cath fire very slowly allowing in the majority of the cases a safe bail out by his crew.

http://x402.putfile.com/2/5218462930.jpg

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/5201/kurskchurchill9zn.jpg


M-3 Scout car with Browning M2 .50BMG.

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/8141/m3scoutcar9ai.jpg


Bren carrier armed with a .....Boys rifle, amazing. even the russian had PTRS and PTRD wich were was far superior......They never say no at the gifts. :shock:

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/7799/brencarrierconboys3pr.jpg

[Panzerknacker]

For more images of this battle you can go to.

http://aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/photos/gallery_003/page_01.htm

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/97/kursk1296hg.jpg