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South African Military
03-13-2005, 03:47 AM
Heres another gun debate. Which sniper rifles where the best in WW2? :?: I know nothing about sniper rifles, but I am very Interested to know.

Anybody :?:

South African Military
03-15-2005, 05:51 AM
Nobody :?: Sad......

Gen. Sandworm
03-15-2005, 04:22 PM
I looked around alot but didnt find anything good. A few pics here and there but nothing really informative. :(

South African Military
03-16-2005, 03:41 AM
:? sometimes you can find so much on the internet, and sometimes you can find ****. I wonder if there are any books on the topic.

Winjeel
03-22-2005, 05:53 AM
a scoped K98 or G43

Dani
03-22-2005, 07:40 AM
Or check these:
http://www.russian-mosin-nagant.com/9130sniper.htm

http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl03-e.htm

or this:
http://www.snipercentral.com/m1903a4.htm

Dani
03-22-2005, 08:01 AM
a scoped K98 or G43

http://www.wwiirelics.com/weapons4.htm

Dani
03-22-2005, 08:03 AM
And for Brits:
http://www.snipercentral.com/no4mk1t.htm

Dani
03-22-2005, 08:07 AM
Which sniper rifles where the best in WW2?
IMO, in "best sniper rifle" debate, we have to discuss more on the skills of the sniper than the gun itself.

Just give to a raw recruit a fine sniper rifle and give to an experienced sniper a regular rifle. Guess who'll win the competition... :lol: :lol:

Anyway Mosin-Nagant rifle it seems to be as the best ww2 sniper rifle.

03-22-2005, 01:01 PM
How about the Springfield? Used since WW1.

Preatorian
03-23-2005, 02:37 PM
...
Anyway Mosin-Nagant rifle it seems to be as the best ww2 sniper rifle.

Mosin-Nagant rifle was one of very good bolt-action rifle for WWII, but wasn't best. Mauser C-98 as well as his clone Springfield M1903 - seems like more reasonable winner of "Best bolt-action rifle of WWI/WWII". One thing should be mattred - a lot of copies on C-98, lots of clones and lots of armys used this rifle. But who copied Mosin-Nagant or adopted this rifle as main army rifle, don't mention Russia/USSR and ex-russian Finlandia ? Right ansver - no one.
Scoped bolt-action standard army rifle doesn't meand "sniper rifle", by the way. Few things does matter: quality of barrel, scope and cartrige. And, finally, ballistic of bullet.
From all bolt-actioner of WWII at my look best rifle was brittish Le Endfield Mk *, scoped or not scoped. It was really "hard dieng" rifle, with great firepower and realability.
Semi-auto rifles with all kinds of sight - best, offcourse, was M1 Garand, then SVT. Germans don't got luck to make reliable semi-auto battle rifle, by the way they don't got enough luck to make it till G36.

South African Military
03-24-2005, 05:46 AM
...
Anyway Mosin-Nagant rifle it seems to be as the best ww2 sniper rifle.

Mosin-Nagant rifle was one of very good bolt-action rifle for WWII, but wasn't best. Mauser C-98 as well as his clone Springfield M1903 - seems like more reasonable winner of "Best bolt-action rifle of WWI/WWII". One thing should be mattred - a lot of copies on C-98, lots of clones and lots of armys used this rifle. But who copied Mosin-Nagant or adopted this rifle as main army rifle, don't mention Russia/USSR and ex-russian Finlandia ? Right ansver - no one.
Scoped bolt-action standard army rifle doesn't meand "sniper rifle", by the way. Few things does matter: quality of barrel, scope and cartrige. And, finally, ballistic of bullet.
From all bolt-actioner of WWII at my look best rifle was brittish Le Endfield Mk *, scoped or not scoped. It was really "hard dieng" rifle, with great firepower and realability.
Semi-auto rifles with all kinds of sight - best, offcourse, was M1 Garand, then SVT. Germans don't got luck to make reliable semi-auto battle rifle, by the way they don't got enough luck to make it till G36.

Ya the British one seems to the best, and most well built, but I think that debating about sniper rifles, if you have a decent sniper rifle (and all the sniper rifles mentioned are decent) then the main skill is with the snipers ability. Anyone one of these sniper rifles can take down any other.

Preatorian
03-24-2005, 06:06 AM
Ya the British one seems to the best, and most well built, but I think that debating about sniper rifles, if you have a decent sniper rifle (and all the sniper rifles mentioned are decent) then the main skill is with the snipers ability. Anyone one of these sniper rifles can take down any other.
Yes, sir :!:
No one of available sniper's rifle can't make sniper's duty without sniper.

By the way, IMHO, Americans were best shooters in WWII, by one reason - in USA everyone can buy rifle and got some sooter's sKill independing of army's traning. So, at start of war a lot of men in US Army was expirienced as sharpshooters in hunting or sporting matter.
And i will bet on hunter or sportshooter in battle against man, who took in hands rifle first time only in army few months later.

lieutlienant Vorontsov
04-10-2005, 12:03 PM
Mosin is the best gun!

South African Military
04-12-2005, 05:22 AM
Ya the British one seems to the best, and most well built, but I think that debating about sniper rifles, if you have a decent sniper rifle (and all the sniper rifles mentioned are decent) then the main skill is with the snipers ability. Anyone one of these sniper rifles can take down any other.
Yes, sir :!:
No one of available sniper's rifle can't make sniper's duty without sniper.

By the way, IMHO, Americans were best shooters in WWII, by one reason - in USA everyone can buy rifle and got some sooter's sKill independing of army's traning. So, at start of war a lot of men in US Army was expirienced as sharpshooters in hunting or sporting matter.
And i will bet on hunter or sportshooter in battle against man, who took in hands rifle first time only in army few months later.

How do you know that? :?:

Preatorian
04-12-2005, 11:55 AM
How do you know that? :?:

It's was easy to see during my time, spended in USSR army - usually hunters somewhere from deep *** of Siberia was a best army shoters, also as sporting shooters too. And in case of war - hunters and sportshooters usually easy become a snipers, much easy than somebody, who never shoot from something louder than BB gun.

And about USA - i just guess. I was in USA only once and this visit gived to me my most interesting shooters expirience - my frends there are shooters too, got a lot of varios rifles and autorifles, from Remington 70 (i sure best of bolt action rifles) to FN FAL or AR-15. Most of them are hunters. And more than half of my USA frends never was in US Army, but they great sharpshooters.

I just trieng to say - if contry's laws doing all possible against guns in civilians use - it will make in case of war a lot of problems with civilians, who will go to battle with minimal shooter's expirience.
Offcourse if your country don't use "people's wave" battle tactic or dont think: "20 men with AK is better, than one trained sniper."

Sturmtruppen
04-12-2005, 08:51 PM
Gewerh 43,Mosin Nagant,Mauser are good all!,but i think Kar98 is the best.[/list]

Sturmtruppen
04-13-2005, 03:09 PM
I forget american springfield!,it was very good!.

Preatorian
04-13-2005, 04:27 PM
I forget american springfield!,it was very good!.
You don't ! :P
Sprinfield M1903 - just clon of Mauser C-98.

When Sprinfield Armory Co. starting produce this bolt-actioner in large quantity for US Army, Mauser Waffen Werke started great patent scandal. After all, Sprinfield Armory payed a lot of money to Mauser as penalty and bought license from Mauser.
Yes, brothers, Mauser get money for each M1903...

Strange story, but fact.

Sturmtruppen
04-13-2005, 06:20 PM
wow! :shock: ,I don`t know that! :) ,thanks for your remind :wink:

South African Military
04-14-2005, 09:12 AM
Yes me neither, amazing fact. So the Springfield was not by great American technology.

Preatorian
04-14-2005, 02:10 PM
http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/SpringfieldM1903.asp
Very good information about M1903.
"The 1914 Enfield had been being mfg. for the Brits. under contract in .303 British to supplement their efforts in France. A few minor changes and redesigning the Pattern 1914 to fire the .30-'06 ctg. resulted in the U. S. Rifle caliber .30 Model 1917. Strangely enough, the U. S. Army used more Enfields in France than Springfields (the famous sharpshooter Alvin York actually used an Enfield in winning his Medal of Honor!). The Marines utilized the Enfield in training, but turned them in when they went to the rifle range and took only 1903's to France. After the war, the M1917 was relegated to a limited standard status and the 1903 was reestablished as the standard issue arm."
I can't found any information about "scandal" (but i sure - with Mauser patent happend some strange history, i hawe read it few times and hawe heard it a lot of times). All what i found is: "Sprinfiel used Mauser patents"...
Another good information about M1903:
http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl07-e.htm
"Springfield entered into negotiations with Mauser company and finally acquired the rights for Mauser bolt action for amount of US $200 000."
A lot of "rocks" for 1900 !!! :shock:

Why americans don't make some Mauser-independable - i dont hawe any idea, ' cos they in these times got great weponary-tecnologies... "something went wrong..."
USA at start of WWI don't got enough M1903, don't got any LMGs... oh, something really was wrong in 1914 with US Army. :cry:

Sturmtruppen
04-14-2005, 04:08 PM
http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/SpringfieldM1903.asp
Why americans don't make some Mauser-independable - i dont hawe any idea, ' cos they in these times got great weponary-tecnologies... "something went wrong..."
USA at start of WWI don't got enough M1903, don't got any LMGs... oh, something really was wrong in 1914 with US Army. :cry:


Yes,I don`t know if USA was totally prepared at start of the war.

I have an old mauser in my house.

Preatorian
04-16-2005, 08:34 AM
...
I have an old mauser in my house.
I see you locky man. :wink:
In Argentina you can keep such weapons in home ? If "yes" - i like Argentina more and more.

IRONMAN
04-20-2005, 04:33 AM
I agree that the Springfield was the best boltie of the war. After the war, the brand went on to be considered one of the finest rifles in the world for many many years. Springfield has always been renouned for accuracy and quality of manufacture.

Preatorian
04-20-2005, 01:48 PM
I agree that the Springfield was the best boltie of the war. After the war, the brand went on to be considered one of the finest rifles in the world for many many years. Springfield has always been renouned for accuracy and quality of manufacture.

Sure about quality and accuracy.

But what about Remington ? :wink:
Specially Remingtom 700s series ? At my look is it best serial marksman bolt-action rifle "for-all-times".

IRONMAN
04-20-2005, 07:44 PM
I agree that the Springfield was the best boltie of the war. After the war, the brand went on to be considered one of the finest rifles in the world for many many years. Springfield has always been renouned for accuracy and quality of manufacture.

Sure about quality and accuracy.

But what about Remington ? :wink:
Specially Remingtom 700s series ? At my look is it best serial marksman bolt-action rifle "for-all-times".

Exactly. What about the Remington 700? The topic is what was the best rifle of WWII. The Remington 700 was introduced in 1962.

Please, stay on topic my friend. Let's not fill the threads with "but..." stuff that is not on topic. *shaking head*

ging-gwar
05-11-2005, 04:40 PM
the lee-enfiled bolt action series of rifles were excellent to shot, the lee action of bolt operation with a curved bolt gave a smoother action than other standard service rifles employed by other armies.
The British Army expeditionary Force (BEF) in WW1 was well trained n marksmanship, A British Tommy was paid 1 penny a day extra if he was a Marksman so Soldiers learned to be good shots for their pay. Not only could they hit targets at long distances,they could do it at a high rate of fire. The average tommy could fire over 15 well aimed shots a minute using the lee action, Much to the German Armys dismay.
The Lee actions smooth operation and its direct link to aid the firers ability
to hit targets is bourne out by the fact that the British Army used the lee enfield sniping rifle until the early ninetys in its L42 7.62mm form. The british army still have Lee enfields at Cadet units in .22 calibre until this day.

Preatorian
05-11-2005, 05:09 PM
the lee-enfiled bolt action series of rifles were excellent to shot, the lee action of bolt operation with a curved bolt gave a smoother action than other standard service rifles employed by other armies.
The British Army expeditionary Force (BEF) in WW1 was well trained n marksmanship, A British Tommy was paid 1 penny a day extra if he was a Marksman so Soldiers learned to be good shots for their pay. Not only could they hit targets at long distances,they could do it at a high rate of fire. The average tommy could fire over 15 well aimed shots a minute using the lee action, Much to the German Armys dismay.
The Lee actions smooth operation and its direct link to aid the firers ability
to hit targets is bourne out by the fact that the British Army used the lee enfield sniping rifle until the early ninetys in its L42 7.62mm form. The british army still have Lee enfields at Cadet units in .22 calibre until this day.
Surely - thanks for this information - i never know about British Tommy and extra-money for marxman.
SMLE rifles aka Boer (how i know Boers mostly have used Mauser C-98, not Lee Enfield, but SMLE got this name "Boer" in Afganistan ) sometimes occur in Afganistan. Good rifle. Especially 10-riund mag and good accuracy.
That afganian "Boer" SMLE was one weack point - very old cartridge, .303 with old rounded nosed bullets, not WWII era Mk VII bullet. With this old rounded nose bullet got bad ballistic and poor penetrative energy. I tought with new bullets SMLE was much better.
But anyway - soviet soldiers got a lot legends about outstading power and accuracy of these old "Boer" rifles...

South African Military
05-13-2005, 06:31 AM
the lee-enfiled bolt action series of rifles were excellent to shot, the lee action of bolt operation with a curved bolt gave a smoother action than other standard service rifles employed by other armies.
The British Army expeditionary Force (BEF) in WW1 was well trained n marksmanship, A British Tommy was paid 1 penny a day extra if he was a Marksman so Soldiers learned to be good shots for their pay. Not only could they hit targets at long distances,they could do it at a high rate of fire. The average tommy could fire over 15 well aimed shots a minute using the lee action, Much to the German Armys dismay.
The Lee actions smooth operation and its direct link to aid the firers ability
to hit targets is bourne out by the fact that the British Army used the lee enfield sniping rifle until the early ninetys in its L42 7.62mm form. The british army still have Lee enfields at Cadet units in .22 calibre until this day.
Surely - thanks for this information - i never know about British Tommy and extra-money for marxman.
SMLE rifles aka Boer (how i know Boers mostly have used Mauser C-98, not Lee Enfield, but SMLE got this name "Boer" in Afganistan ) sometimes occur in Afganistan. Good rifle. Especially 10-riund mag and good accuracy.
That afganian "Boer" SMLE was one weack point - very old cartridge, .303 with old rounded nosed bullets, not WWII era Mk VII bullet. With this old rounded nose bullet got bad ballistic and poor penetrative energy. I tought with new bullets SMLE was much better.
But anyway - soviet soldiers got a lot legends about outstading power and accuracy of these old "Boer" rifles...

Why are they nicknamed "Boer" is there some connection to the Anglo-Boer War??

Preatorian
05-13-2005, 07:18 AM
Why are they nicknamed "Boer" is there some connection to the Anglo-Boer War??
Yes, i guess is it somehow connected with Anglo-Boer War, but i doubt - afganistanian niknamed this rifle as "Boer" or sovier soldiers...
Is it strange story anyway - since USSR occupation of Afganistan in 1979 a lot of legends starting generated around some unknown weapon with name "Boer"... it these tales that unrecognized rifle was powerfull as Barret and accurate as laser beam. I hawe heard big part of this legends - headshots from range more than 2000 meters, bullets pirced trought personal carriers and even tanks, 10x scopes and other bullshit...
It was beginning of Soviet-Afganistan war and afganistanian (.. hmm, what right word for these ppl ?) rebels not get support from Freedom World yet. They used a lot of old weapon from Brittish occupation era, Peabody-Martini and Martini-Henry rifles, old Lee-Endfields... once i have seen something outstanding - captured as trophy shotgun about 8-6 gauge, you-can-put-in-barrel coca-cola can... That shotgun was muzzle-loading, fired from tripod (!) and as load used about half beer can of black powder and half-can of selfmaked from any screws and nails buck-shot. No one know how oprator of this gun can manage with recoil - by legend that shotgun never fired after capturing, because there were no voluntary testers, no one soldiers have agreed get he's shoulder brocked during test-shot...
That shotgun can't really kill somebody at range more than 50 meters, but was sutable to hurt whole lot of soldiers and make them out of order... kind of non-lethat one-shot machinegun... :D

After time few "Boers" was captured and it was end of terreble legends - these rifles was tested and by result - nothing outstanding, only honestly in the face of God old military bolt-action rifle. With old cartridge and full leaden non jacketed bullet these rifles was useless even against soldier in standard soviet armored jacket.

For correction - "Boer" was common name for all old long barreled wepon in Afganistan, from flint-guns to SMLE. But most frequently that nickname was applicable exactly for old Lee-Endfield/Lee Medfort rifles.

2nd of foot
05-13-2005, 05:32 PM
once i have seen something outstanding - captured as trophy shotgun about 8-6 gauge, you-can-put-in-barrel coca-cola can... That shotgun was muzzle-loading, fired from tripod

Praetorian this may have been a duck gun. I have tried to find a picture but can’t. This was a musket with a long barrel and a very big bore. It was fitted to the front of a boat. The hunter would lie in the boat and slowly paddle towards the duck, when in range he would fire and take them as they panicked. It was a large shotgun. They have one in the royal armouries in Leeds.

Preatorian
05-13-2005, 05:40 PM
once i have seen something outstanding - captured as trophy shotgun about 8-6 gauge, you-can-put-in-barrel coca-cola can... That shotgun was muzzle-loading, fired from tripod

Praetorian this may have been a duck gun. I have tried to find a picture but can’t. This was a musket with a long barrel and a very big bore. It was fitted to the front of a boat. The hunter would lie in the boat and slowly paddle towards the duck, when in range he would fire and take them as they panicked. It was a large shotgun. They have one in the royal armouries in Leeds.

Very look lke you talk about that gun... really large shotgun. By one shot hunter will kill half-dosen ducks at least i gues... really weapons of mass destruction against ducks !

2nd of foot
05-13-2005, 06:57 PM
i will try and find a picture.

2nd of foot
05-14-2005, 11:02 AM
Praetorian

I have found a site with a modern duck gun. As with all these things its finding the right work “Puntgunning

http://gallery.puntgunner.co.uk/albums.php

or puntgun. A punt is a flat bottomed boat for marsh area.

One of the guns hanging in the gun club is called a "punt gun" or a "merchant's gun". This gun was not really used by the club members, it is just for decoration. Years ago people used to practice shooting the punt gun with nails and glass. The punt gun also used buckshot and black powder to shoot. It could kill 40 to 50 ducks at a time!

http://www.lehsd.k12.nj.us/Summer2002/Moore/HesterSedgeGunClub.htm

it would be more comman thatn I thiought as you will see examples from the US as well.

Words to try a search on are puntgunning, puntgun, punt gun.


http://www.lehsd.k12.nj.us/Summer2002/Moore/HesterSedgeGunClub.htm

Preatorian
05-14-2005, 11:33 AM
Praetorian

I have found a site with a modern duck gun. As with all these things its finding the right work “Puntgunning
...

Thanks a lot.
I was hardly impressed by this... gun.
http://www.lehsd.k12.nj.us/Summer2002/Moore/Pictures/Day3/puntgun.jpg.jpg
Looks like mortair with butt. Best way to shoot oneself... :lol:

By the way, Russian police got in service pretty big shotgun - KS-23.

http://www.d-project.ru/images/stati/ks23.gif

Is it 8 gauge 3+1 shells pump action shotgun. 23 in name - because bore is 23 mm.
We use it as gas-grenade launcher and "master key" - any door will be opened after shot in lock... With case-shot that gun usable against enymy at range less than 150 yards.
Recoil is pretty hard, bruise spot guaranteed.

This gun today available for civilians and maybe somebody use it as pump-action puntgun.

Man of Stoat
05-15-2005, 10:06 AM
OK, back on topic.

The main sniping rifles of WW2 were:

Bolt action:
Lee-Enfield No.4mk1T
10rds, .303", 4x scope, built on accurised No.4 rifles by Holland & Holland.

Springfield M1903A4
5rds, .30-06, 4xscope IIRC

Mauser Kar98k
5 rds, 7.92mm, various scopes from 1.4x long eye relief zf4 to 4x

Mosin-Nagant M1891/30
5 rds, 7.62x54R, 4x scope

Self-loading:
SVT40
G/K43
M1D Garand (very late in war)

We can immediately discount the self-loaders, since they are not really accurate enough with the possible exception of the M1D, although that was ergonomically awful since the scope was heavily offset to the left.

Of the bolt actions, the Mauser was not really as accurate as the others. The Nagant is very accurate for the time, but suffered from being long. The springfield was accurate and a good length, but had no auxiliary iron sights. All of these suffered from having a 5 round magazine, which for pure 1-shot sniping is not an issue, but in an infantary sniping mode can be (i.e. supporting troops with relatively rapid aimed fire).

The No.4T has the fastest bolt action of all the sniping rifles, and the best ergonomics, due in part to the addition of a cheekpiece as standard. For the other rifles you have to raise your head to see through the sights and thus cannot get a good cheek weld. Accuracy was comparable with the others (perhaps slightly inferior to the Springfield & Nagant), and the No.4T+No.32 scope combination is practically indestructible. With a calibre change, a heavier barrel and a cut back stock, the No.4 served on with the British Army as the L42, and was produced reportedly as late as 1985. The 10 round magazine helps in the infantry sniping role and could be quickly changed, although the rifles were usually reloaded through the open action.

Preatorian
05-15-2005, 06:06 PM
...
We can immediately discount the self-loaders, since they are not really accurate enough with the possible exception of the M1D, although that was ergonomically awful since the scope was heavily offset to the left.
...
...
All of these suffered from having a 5 round magazine, which for pure 1-shot sniping is not an issue, but in an infantary sniping mode can be (i.e. supporting troops with relatively rapid aimed fire).

Hmm, for infantry sniping those refused by you self-loaders wold be more usefull than bolt-action rifles. I tought by this reason USSR adopted SVD (wich is not exactly sniper rifle, but "autorifle with increased accuracy" and USA adopted M21 - same story.


The No.4T has the fastest bolt action of all the sniping rifles, and the best ergonomics, due in part to the addition of a cheekpiece as standard. For the other rifles you have to raise your head to see through the sights and thus cannot get a good cheek weld. Accuracy was comparable with the others (perhaps slightly inferior to the Springfield & Nagant), and the No.4T+No.32 scope combination is practically indestructible. With a calibre change, a heavier barrel and a cut back stock, the No.4 served on with the British Army as the L42, and was produced reportedly as late as 1985. The 10 round magazine helps in the infantry sniping role and could be quickly changed, although the rifles were usually reloaded through the open action.
Detachable mag SMLE - outstanding option, one on kind. As i know, no one more mlitary bolt-action rifle had such mag... i
You sayd - "The No.4T has the fastest bolt action of all the sniping rifles"... fastes by rate of fire or you meand something else ? If you meand rate of fire - is it not so important for sniper rifle in normal "hunter" mode of snipng - anyway you can't make few aimed shoots from one position immediately, 'cos all killing shit, from bullets and mortar shells to curses start to fly in your direction after second shot.
After shot sniper never make second shot, is it warranted way to kill himself - by this reason USMC snipers never load full mag their M-40, only one round - to avoid even tought about second shot from same position.
I sure - you know it. I just show you -i know it too.
In infantry support mode - yes, better have 10 rounds mag than 5 rounds. It increase rate of practicall fire without doubts.

Ale
05-15-2005, 07:12 PM
Hi Praetorian;
With regards the semi-automatic snipers rifles, these have a time and a place alongside bolt action rifles. I believe that in much of the US forces, the sniper team will carry a bolt action rifle and an accurized M-14 as well. This gives a good combination of firepower and accuracy for the team. I will grant that some of the very modern snipers rifles, like the H&K PSG 1 are of sufficient accuracy to replace bolt action rifles in many roles, but in WWII I don't think there was much that could.

With regards the Lee Enfield No4, the bolt action is significantly faster to use than a standard mauser action, as the bolt uses rear locking lugs instead of the lugs at the front of the bolt found on a mauser type. The disadvantage of this is that the action is not as strong, no problem with .303 ammo, but it is not as good with high pressure hunting rounds, hence the universal nature of Mauser type actions in modern sporting bolt actions. Also, the lee action does not have extractor claws which grip the round as it feeds. I'm sure your aware that on a mauser you can operate the bolt with the rifle upside down and it will still feed properly, this cannot be done with a Lee.

Nonetheless, the superior speed of the action, and the less strength required to work it, means that you can operate the bolt very fast without leaving the aim. In 1914, ALL British soldiers had to be able to shoot a minimum of 15 aimed shots per minute, and many could shoot more. Bear in mind that this includes time to reload the clip.

Its also worth noting that despite the detachable magazine, the Lee was generally loaded from the top using 5 round clips into the 10 round magazine, the mag tends to shed rounds if you carry it loaded.

This made the Lee an excellent infantry rifle, as it was very fast, and a good sniper rifle in the infantry support mode. There are times in sniper 'hunting' roles when a second shot is possible/necessary, and again the bolt action of the lee allows the bolt to be operated very quickly and with the minimum of effort/movement.

That said, there is lots to be said for mauser actioned rifles too, I have one in CZ which is great, although not as slick as a lee!:wink:

Alex

Ale
05-15-2005, 07:19 PM
Everything you could want to know about Lee Enfields:

http://www.leeenfieldrifleassociation.org.uk/

http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~stratton/en-page.html

http://enfields.freestarthost.com/

Andon the .303 Cartridge:

www.303british.com

Hope these are of interest to someone!

Preatorian
05-15-2005, 07:31 PM
Ale !
Thanks a lot for really interesting information about Lee Endfield aka SMLE - i can't say that i know a lot about it, few shoots from old afganistan's trophy don't matter. I instinctivly feel simpathy to SMLE, something lile intuition.
And now i know what meand Man of Stoat when he wrote "The No.4T has the fastest bolt action of all the sniping rifles..." Thanks again !
So now i need now some information about SMLE No.4T accuracy... maybe links will help.
By the way - during WWII was special "sniper's" cartridge for SMLE No.4T or not ?
Thanks !

Ale
05-15-2005, 07:47 PM
I'm afraid I don't know about special ammunition, I would have thought so though.

Here is the No4 Mk1 T http://enfields.freestarthost.com/ri10.htm apparently they were modded up by Holland and Holland!:shock:

They fetch about £3000-£5000 in the UK nowadays.

I gather that they were based on rifles that could already achieve 1.5 or 1 MOA of accuracy before modification. I don't know what they could achieve afterwards, but I know that many were still being used for competitive 1000 yard shooting until the 70's.

Most of the wartime No4;s were in the 1-2.5 moa range, wartime manufacturing was not the greatest! Still, for the period that was great, and it is still ok for hunting and service rifle/practical shooting. I too have a big thing for Lee Enfields, the first 'proper' rifle I ever handled (except an airgun!) was a Drill No4, and I learnt to shoot using Lee enfield .22lr rifles at cadets in my early teens. They just feel like a 'real' rifle! :D i'm currently trying to sort the paperwork so I can buy one!

2nd of foot
05-15-2005, 08:21 PM
Ale I was also taught to shoot on a No 8 and fired full bore SMLE but it was a long time ago. Adopting the prone position from standing and being able to reload keeping the barrel pointing at the target. Took a number of years before I could do it.

Praetorian I have in the back of my mined that they made SMLE copies in the back streets of India. It may be that some of these that they came across in Afghanistan. I knew a sniper instructor who told me that the scope for the No 4 was also used on the bren because it was so accurate.

I am also under the impression that automatic rifles are not as good as bolt because most of them have to break at the butt to be cleaned and so break the line of the weapon.

Cuts
05-15-2005, 08:42 PM
2nd, they probably do make some Smellies in the back streets in India, but if you're looking for some really impressive home engineering, Darra just over the border is worth a look if you ever find yourself in the area.
They make copies of everything, from a jaziil, through the bolts to G3s and AKSUs.
Plus indirect fire wpns if that's your thing !

Test firing occurs up into the air in the street, á la Afgani weddings however, so you might need to avoid A10's. :D

Unfortunately it has become a tourist haven over the last few years, but if you avoid the walts you can still have an amusing day there.

Man of Stoat
05-16-2005, 04:18 AM
With regard to the self-loaders being used in an infantary sniping role, they were limited by their range: the Russian SVT reportedly was not much good beyond 200m.

The record for speed shooting an SMLE was achieved in 1914 by a Pt. Snoxall, who achieved 38 hits in one minute. The most I've ever achieved was 25 in about 50 secs with my No.4 (I ran out of ammo!). The No.4 bolt is almost identical to the SMLE bolt, but is usually a teeny bit slower (personal experience - the tolerances on the SMLE tend to be a bit looser).

The comment about self-loaders breaking in the middle does not apply to all, especially not in WW2, since most transitional self-loaders are built in a similar configuration to a bolt-action.

Preatorian
05-16-2005, 05:18 AM
With regard to the self-loaders being used in an infantary sniping role, they were limited by their range: the Russian SVT reportedly was not much good beyond 200m.
...
Hmm... sniper version of SVT 40 not same with usual infantry SVT 40... i sure you may know it, but is it not widely known fact. sniper version of SVT was made not on a usual line of manufacture, barrels were made on separate precision machine tools, before WWII most of sniper SVD had nut stock and butt instead of birch. By soviet stadards sniper SVD could be transferred from a factory to army only if 10 shoots make hits were not fallen outside the limits with 12 sm (120m) of a rectangular at range 300 meters.
The most bad property in this rifle - strong unmasking mussle flash during shot, just property of overpowered russian/soviet 7.62x54R cartridge - muzle flash big enough even in mosin-nagant rifle M1891/30... and this cartridge with rim real headache for any auto weapon...
SVT40 has twist pitch 320 mm (240 mm in mosin-nagant) - it make better bullet stabilization in flight and better unstabilising at an entrance in an obstacle.

Anyway, soviet woman-sniper lt. Ludmila Pavlichenko killed 309 enemies during WWII with SVT 40... not bad for "limited by range rifle"... :D

Legends about bad accuracy of SVT widely replicating... i don't know who was autor of this legend, but text everywhere identical, it is quoted same source...
Basing at my own experience usual non-sniper SVT accurate to hit machbox at 100m.

Man of Stoat
05-16-2005, 05:31 AM
I'm hopefully getting an SVD soon (if I can find one), so once I've got it I'll report back on its accuracy. All the sources I've read indicate that it's not much good as a sniper rifle beyond 200m, and that the high-scoring snipers preferred the Nagant.

Preatorian
05-16-2005, 06:09 AM
I'm hopefully getting an SVD soon (if I can find one), so once I've got it I'll report back on its accuracy. All the sources I've read indicate that it's not much good as a sniper rifle beyond 200m, and that the high-scoring snipers preferred the Nagant.
EDITED ! My mistake - i tought you meand SVT instead SVD...

Good idea !
I can make one advice - better if you can get SVT produced before 1941 - i guess is it hard to find and more hard to find good rifle (btw SVT barrel should be replaced after about 7000 shoots, 'cos accuracy will be lost, not much, huh ?). Todays SVT, presented in local Russian market usually have varios quality - from extremaly poor to brand-new.
Usual SVT 40 accuracy - 5 shoots from 100 yards in 80 mm rectangular with standard cartridge.
And better make chromium-plating inside chamber (necessarily !) and barrel and gas-mechanism right after after purchase SVT - that rifle really got problems with corrosion.
As all russian things - SVT good thing for any tunings and customizings.
P.S.
Btw i guess you'll find this rifle very familar in arrangement - it's pretty similar with L1A1, especially in trigger mechanism.
But today hard to find SVT 38/40 even in Russia, i have heard in Ukraine much easy get SVT than elsewhere. I don't know how hard get SVT in USA or in UK (if in UK possible generally get any autorifles).

Man of Stoat
05-16-2005, 06:35 AM
I'm not in the UK, so the ban on self-loading rifles is not a problem for me.

I also own an L1A1, and personally rate it as the best 7.62mm battle rifle, for many reasons which are off topic for a WW2 forum! 8)

Preatorian
05-16-2005, 06:42 AM
I'm not in the UK, so the ban on self-loading rifles is not a problem for me.

I also own an L1A1, and personally rate it as the best 7.62mm battle rifle, for many reasons which are off topic for a WW2 forum! 8)
So, in that forum at least two FN-FAL/L1A1 fans, you and me... :wink:
In a context of constructive similarity SVT and FN-FAL it not the big off-topic sin i hope.

Oh, i shold apologize - i missreaded your post about SVD - i meand SVT 38/40 in my post ... :oops:
I will edit my post a bit... no SVD - SVT !!! :oops:

2nd of foot
05-16-2005, 07:49 AM
Man of Stoat wrote


The comment about self-loaders breaking in the middle does not apply to all, especially not in WW2, since most transitional self-loaders are built in a similar configuration to a bolt-action.

But is this a problem with self-loading, or is it just an assumption.


The record for speed shooting an SMLE was achieved in 1914 by a Pt. Snoxall, who achieved 38 hits in one minute.

It is amazing how a comment by someone will bring back a memory and a comment by another. My grandfather told me of a problem they had in WW! (he joined at 14 and also served in WW2 a as Div CSM). Soldiers would get so hipped up and continue to fire even when out of ammo, just going through the procedure of opening and closing the bolt. Just remained me that some one commented that after 8 rounds the M1 ejects the clip with a ping and that the enemy could hear when your reloading. It is hard enough to communicate with each other in a firefight let alone hear a ping. Another Hollywood truth?

Cuts
05-16-2005, 09:21 AM
......

Just remained me that some one commented that after 8 rounds the M1 ejects the clip with a ping and that the enemy could hear when your reloading. It is hard enough to communicate with each other in a firefight let alone hear a ping. Another Hollywood truth?

They do make a loud pinging noise when the empty en-block clip is ejected, the sound coming from the ejection rather than the clip impacting with hard ground.
It is quite noticeable on the firing point when training, but as you rightly say there is plenty of other noise in a contact and the 'ping' is likely to go unnoticed by those downrange.

Preatorian
05-16-2005, 09:28 AM
Man of Stoat wrote

The record for speed shooting an SMLE was achieved in 1914 by a Pt. Snoxall, who achieved 38 hits in one minute.

It is amazing how a comment by someone will bring back a memory and a comment by another. My grandfather told me of a problem they had in WW! (he joined at 14 and also served in WW2 a as Div CSM). Soldiers would get so hipped up and continue to fire even when out of ammo, just going through the procedure of opening and closing the bolt. Just remained me that some one commented that after 8 rounds the M1 ejects the clip with a ping and that the enemy could hear when your reloading. It is hard enough to communicate with each other in a firefight let alone hear a ping. Another Hollywood truth?
Heh... :D During transient fight not always you notice that the weapon has become empty, adrenalin and panic not great assiatants to attentiveness...
Sound of ejecting empty M1 Garand clip ? During firefight ? :lol: In real fight you can be wounded and not pay attention to it...
I guess not sound, but view of a taking off clip can be noted by enemy during very closed combat and it would be good sign for enemy what exactly now to kill you it is the most safe chance. But is it good sign for gun owner too - that rising up clip meand - your weapon empty now and you can't return fire, better now get some cover and reload your rifle ...
With AK this problem is much more difficult - possible to shoot last cartridge in mag and do not know at all, that it last to get into closest fight and to appear there easy trophy for enemy.
Better ejecting clip and opened in backward position bolt than nothing...

Man of Stoat
05-16-2005, 11:47 AM
I can easily believe the story about soldiers continuing to work the bolt in combat when empty: most Mauser rifles have a built-in "idiot stop" to prevent this happening (also P14/M17, Springfield, Schmidt-Rubin + others, but not SMLE, No.4, Nagant + others). I've seen people in rapid fire competitions fail to count their rounds and get a "click" after having closed the bolt on an empty chamber.

The ping is indeed noticable, but the Garand is so fiendishly fast to re-load that it serves more as a warning to the firer than the enemy. I'm not sure I'd particularly notice it with rounds coming my direction from close range. In any case, if one guy goes 'ping', his buddies have still got rounds up the spout!

Adolf Hitler
05-16-2005, 11:58 AM
[/img]

The PSG-1 sniper system (PrazisionsSchutzenGewehr, or "high-precision marksman's rifle" in English) had been developed by the German company Heckler - Koch by the mid-1980s as an ultimate police and counter-terror weapon. Some German elite law-enforcement groups, like GSG or KSK-9, participate in this development, and since its introduction the PSG-1 had been adopted by various police forces in Europe and Americas. It is way too heavy and somewhat too gentle for military use, so it never seen any military use. Instead, HK developed two more sniper weapons. The first, that actually preceded the PSG-1, was the G3-SG1, an accurized and scope-fitted version of the basic G3 automatic rifle for German Army. And in the mid-1980s HK also developed a derivative of the PSG-1, called MSG-90, for export military sales. The PSG-1 is still offered by the HK, and is one of the most expensive factory-made sniper rifles on the market, hitting the $10.000 price tag in the basic package.

Technically, the PSG-1 is no more than a heavily modified G3 rifle. It features the same roller-delayed blowback action, derived from earlier CETME rifles, and the same stamped steel receiver with separate detachable trigger unit. The heavy barrel is precisely made by the cold hammer forging process with polygonal rifling for improved accuracy and longer life. Special trigger unit features a semi-automatic only hammer group and the adjustable trigger with trigger pull of about 1.5 kg (3 lbs). The ergonomically shaped pistol grip features an adjustable palm stop. Plastic buttstock is also adjustable for height and for length of pull. Another non-typical feature of the PSG-1 is the "silent bolt closing device", actually similar to the forward assist, found on M16 rifles. This is apparently to be used in situations where a complete silence must be maintained until the shot is fired. The devise is no more that a pushbutton, located just behind the ejection port, and linked to the bolt carrier by the ratchet-like device. The rifle is fed using standard 20-rounds G3 magazines or special 5-rounds magazines. There's no open (iron) sights on the PSG-1. Instead, it is fitted with the Hendsoldt 6X42 fixed power telescope sight with illuminated reticle. The scope has built-in range adjuster that works in ranges from 100 to 60 meters, so 600 meters is considered the maximum effective range. Most strangely, the PSG-1 had no integral bipod. Instead, it is often used with the separate rest, mounted on the compact tripod.

Man of Stoat
05-16-2005, 12:28 PM
Herr Hitler, the PSG1 is a bit off-topic for a WW2 forum, don't you think? 8)

Adolf Hitler
05-17-2005, 02:57 AM
hey, don't they want the best sniper rifle?

Cuts
05-17-2005, 03:25 AM
In that case AH, it definitely isn't the PSG1 or 2 !

Preatorian
05-17-2005, 04:44 AM
In that case AH, it definitely isn't the PSG1 or 2 !
Yeah ! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Commando Jordovski
07-12-2005, 01:23 AM
For WW2 the best Rifle I have to say was the Mosan nagant, with litle recoil and fast magazine loading.
The german kar98 and the russian mosan nagant are quite similar descriptions aswell and use the same brand of ammunition.
A reliable scoped rifle (sharpshooter) would have to be the scoped mosan.
The U.S.A's scoped rifle, "The Springfield" , which is a manual bullet feeding short sighted rifle, would had to be the most unreliable.

Commando Jordovski
07-12-2005, 01:24 AM
If you want to find out more on scoped rifles head to this Website, It has to be one of the best Projectile Weapon website ever made so far:

www.world.guns.ru

Man of Stoat
07-13-2005, 04:23 AM
For WW2 the best Rifle I have to say was the Mosan nagant, with litle recoil and fast magazine loading.
The german kar98 and the russian mosan nagant are quite similar descriptions aswell and use the same brand of ammunition.
A reliable scoped rifle (sharpshooter) would have to be the scoped mosan.
The U.S.A's scoped rifle, "The Springfield" , which is a manual bullet feeding short sighted rifle, would had to be the most unreliable.

You don't really have much of a clue, do you?

The K98k and M-N are totally different, and fire totally different ammunition.

As for fast, I've managed 17 rounds in a minute out of a M-N (and that was going some), but 25 in 50 secs from an Enfield No.4.

And what on earth makes you think that the Springfield was a single-shot (I'm assuming that's what you mean)? And what on earth is a "short sighted rifle"?

IMHO, best to worst of the WW2 sniper rifles:
No.4 mk 1 T
Springfield
Mosin-Nagant
K98k

Commando Jordovski
07-13-2005, 08:41 AM
heh heh, WHAT models are you considering, first of all YES the kar98 and the mosan nagant took the same ammunition, i was told that when i went to military training, mate.
I heard the germans and russians 1940's were constantly using the enemies ammunition for their rifles.

Commando Jordovski
07-13-2005, 08:48 AM
Also regarding your other question, what on earth is a short sighted rifle?, It's a term i grew up pratically, not many people use it, it means specifically made scoped rifle and not a casually attached sight.

Walther
07-13-2005, 10:40 AM
heh heh, WHAT models are you considering, first of all YES the kar98 and the mosan nagant took the same ammunition, i was told that when i went to military training, mate.
I heard the germans and russians 1940's were constantly using the enemies ammunition for their rifles.

Are you Ironman's Russian alter ego?

The Mosin-Nagant used rimmed 7.62x54R ammunition. The 98k uses rimless 7.92 ammunition, a totally different cartridge. They are not interchangeable.
The same applied to submachine guns:

The PPSh41 and the PS used 7.62 x 25
The German submachine guns used 9mm Luger.

Jan

Firefly
07-13-2005, 10:44 AM
Are you Ironman's Russian alter ego?

Jan

You git Ive just sprayed Lager all over my monitor!!!! :P

Man of Stoat
07-13-2005, 02:37 PM
Sorry, mate, as Walther says, 7.92x57 and 7.62x54R are vastly different cartridges - for instance, the 7.92mm is rimless; 7.62x54R is rimmed (as the R suggests). The diameter of a 7.92x57 is .323", that of a 7.62x54R is .310"-.311".

http://www.municion.org/762x54r/7_62x54r.gifhttp://www.municion.org/792/792.gif

I'd like to see you chamber one in the other, let alone fire it :twisted: Whatever they told you in basic was poppycock - it often happens. A guy I worked with was told during basic that the Indian Rifle 2A could chamber and fire both 7.62x51 NATO and 7.62x39 Soviet :shock:

And no true sniper rifle in the 2nd world war (or indeed ever) has had a "casually attached scope" - the Mosin-Nagants had a scope rail gunsmithed on, the No.4(T)s were bedded and had scope mounting pads attached by Holland and Holland, Springfields were specially selected and had mounts added, as were the Mausers. Some rifles came with mounts as standard, e.g. G/K43, but these were not true sniper rifles. All the true sniper rifles were bolt-action magazine rifles with a capacity of 5 (except the No.4(T) which took 10), and had varying degrees of ergonomic refinement (the No.4(T) being the best).

As for using each other's ammunition, well they were using each other's wpns as well - there's plenty of archive photos of Germans using SVT40s, and Russians using just about anything they could find. It was captured wpns that they were using captured ammo in, not their own.

Walther
07-13-2005, 04:33 PM
The MP 40 had the reputation of being very sensitive to rough treatment and dirt (this is from my Luftwaffe AA NCO grandfather, who had to carry one during the war). Many german soldiers on the Russian front prefered to use a captured PPSh 41 instead, due to better reliability.

Jan

Commando Jordovski
07-18-2005, 09:50 PM
I stand corrected and feel like a fool for i have misheard what rifle took the same ammunition. :D

Well you learn something new everyday...

Cuts
07-20-2005, 10:33 PM
Tremendous post Cdo Jordovski !

There are people on this site that could learn from your comment, you saw the evidence and answered like a man !
For the record I don't think you're a fool, especially after that last post.

I try to stay within my specialist subjects when posting, but have learnt much when reading other threads where members speak from their own area of expertise.

drummerboy
08-24-2005, 12:08 AM
I would definately want a Lee Enfield (scoped) in my hands if I was a sniper.