How does radar work?

[FW-190 Pilot]

I believe satelite havent been invented yet during world war 2, how can radar back then detected enemy aircraft, thanks for telling
any extra about radar during world war 2 is also welcome

[Gen. Sandworm]

Developed by the British before WW2 most radar(Radio Detection and Ranging) stations were stationary and pointed in one direction. At least in the beginning of the war. In simple terms the send out a signal and if it hits something the signal is transmitted back to the station. WW2 radar was very simple. All you could really tell was that there was a plane or group of planes. You couldnt really tell what kind or who's they were.

Another interesting idea that the british developed were magnetic flux gates. They measure disturbances in the earth magnetic field. This was very helpful in detecting german U-boats. They are very sensitive intruments that can pick up the slightest changes in movement. These coupled with sonar (underwater radar) made the U-boats jobs much thougher. Arent the British just dash cunning. :lol:

[Gen. Sandworm]

The Germans experimented with radar as well and stubbled on to modern concept. They discoverd a few of there test plane designs had an extremely low radar signature. This helped in leading to todays stealth technology.

[FW-190 Pilot]

wouldnt that be very inefficient, the sky is so big and you can only scan a little at a time? :roll:

[Gen. Sandworm]

wouldnt that be very inefficient, the sky is so big and you can only scan a little at a time? :roll:

Acutally they were pretty efficent.

Its kinda like throwing a rock into a pond. You will see that the ripples are the stongest near the point of entry but weaken as they get further out. Samething with Radar. Depends on the strengh of the signal that is sent out. The more signal strength the further the range. It wouldnt take long for this to become very wide. Then you would have a huge field of view.

Time wasnt a problem because they had plenty of rocks!!! :lol:

Hope this helps.

[South African Military]

Radar actually might of won the war for the Allies. If Britain hadnt of invented radar before the Battle of Britain, then they would've most likely lost. And if the British lost, noone would no what the outcome would be.

Later on British scientists invented something that was so small yet it doubled and even tripled the range. Winston Churchill wanted Britain to give that thing to the Americans, because he knew they would be a great help in the war. Other people in the government did not want to give one of Britains most valuable secrets, but Winston Churchill did not care about secrets, he cared about winning.

And so the Americans where astonished of what the British discovered and imeadiatly bagan researching the topic. The interesting thing is that they had radar towers when the Japanese hit Pearl Habor, and they actually say planes coming in, but when they alerted their boss, he thought that they where our planes and didnt even think about it being antoher country. And so after Pearl Habor, the Americans began speeding up the reaserch and it bacame extremely valuable in defeating the Japanese Navy, and Airforce.

[South African Military]

="Gen. Sandworm"

Time wasnt a problem because they had plenty of rocks!!! :lol:



Actually time was a problem for the British in the Battle of Britain. Even thought they had a long range over the channel, the Luftwaffe had very fast planes and they only had a couple of minutes to gather the information and to get the planes up to meet them. So there was no room for error.

Radar actually brought the first women into the military, and most women where operating the radar posts or gathering the information.

[FW-190 Pilot]

The Germans experimented with radar as well and stubbled on to modern concept. They discoverd a few of there test plane designs had an extremely low radar signature. This helped in leading to todays stealth technology.
do you know what exactly those aircraft are?
my bet is Me262

[South African Military]

Or it could be the ME 163 Komet. That thing looks extremely aerodynamic. It had a max speed of something like 596 m.p.h.

[Gen. Sandworm]

Im not exactly sure of the plane(s). The Germans just noticed that it didnt showup as well on the radar screen. They werent sure exactly why. Its not so much that aerodynamics as it is the material the plane is made of and most importantly the radar cross section. The more 90 degree angles on a plane the better it will show up on a radar screen. My understanding is that the Americans studied the German notes and started the study of why this was happening.

[Andrew]

Gen Sandworm Wrote
Developed by the British before WW2 most radar(Radio Detection and Ranging) stations were stationary and pointed in one direction. At least in the beginning of the war. In simple terms the send out a signal and if it hits something the signal is transmitted back to the station. WW2 radar was very simple. All you could really tell was that there was a plane or group of planes. You couldnt really tell what kind or who's they were.

Early British Radar sets were fitted with IFF, (Idenitification Freind or Foe)
that produced an enlarged shape on the screen of the tracking radar station, which identified Allied Aircaft, each Aircraft had an IFF box fitted which modified the return signal, thus producing the distinctive shape.

:) :) :) :)

[Andrew]

The Germans experimented with radar as well and stubbled on to modern concept. They discoverd a few of there test plane designs had an extremely low radar signature. This helped in leading to todays stealth technology.
do you know what exactly those aircraft are?
my bet is Me262

The Aircraft that you are talking about is the Gotha 229, here is a side view of one

http://www.kheichhorn.de/assets/images/Go229_2.jpg

And a Gotha 229 on flight trials

http://www.multifunktion.com/il2/go229testc.jpg

This Aircraft was also known as the Horten 229, Named after the 2 Brothers that designed it. Walter and Reimar Horten.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Gen. Sandworm]

Yup those would be those ones. Thanks for the update and pics Andrew

[FW-190 Pilot]

would that be possible the radar could scan the wrong thing, aka, birds?

[South African Military]

That was a damn fine looking plane that gotha 229. The Americans deffinetely took that design and made it into the B-2 Stealth bomber along time later. http://archive.cs.uu.nl/pub/AIRCRAFT-IMAGES/B-2.jpg

[South African Military]

would that be possible the radar could scan the wrong thing, aka, birds?

No, because 1. birds where too small. 2. Birds where extremely aerodynamic and therefore it meant, that they had very smooth edges and nothing sharp.

I think that radar works when there is a distraction in the radio frequencies and so it bounces off.

Here is a picture of one of the Radar towers in Britain.http://www.subbrit.org.uk/rsg/sites/s/stenigot/stenigot32.jpg

[Cactus]

Radar is something that is in use all around us, although it is normally invisible. Air traffic control uses radar to track planes both on the ground and in the air, and also to guide planes in for smooth landings. Police use radar to detect the speed of passing motorists. NASA uses radar to map the Earth and other planets, to track satellites and space debris and to help with things like docking and maneuvering. The military uses it to detect the enemy and to guide weapons.

Meteorologists use radar to track storms, hurricanes and tornadoes. You even see a form of radar at many grocery stores when the doors open automatically! Obviously, radar is an extremely useful technology.

When people use radar, they are usually trying to accomplish one of three things:

* Detect the presence of an object at a distance - Usually the "something" is moving, like an airplane, but radar can also be used to detect stationary objects buried underground. In some cases, radar can identify an object as well; for example, it can identify the type of aircraft it has detected.

* Detect the speed of an object - This is the reason why police use radar.

* Map something - The space shuttle and orbiting satellites use something called Synthetic Aperture Radar to create detailed topographic maps of the surface of planets and moons.

All three of these activities can be accomplished using two things you may be familiar with from everyday life: echo and Doppler shift. These two concepts are easy to understand in the realm of sound because your ears hear echo and Doppler shift every day. Radar makes use of the same techniques using radio waves.

In this article, we'll uncover radar's secrets. Let's look at the sound version first, since you are already familiar with this concept.

Echo and Doppler Shift

When you shout into a well, the sound of your shout travels down the well and is reflected (echoes) off the surface of the water at the bottom of the well. If you measure the time it takes for the echo to return and if you know the speed of sound, you can calculate the depth of the well fairly accurately.
Echo is something you experience all the time. If you shout into a well or a canyon, the echo comes back a moment later. The echo occurs because some of the sound waves in your shout reflect off of a surface (either the water at the bottom of the well or the canyon wall on the far side) and travel back to your ears. The length of time between the moment you shout and the moment that you hear the echo is determined by the distance between you and the surface that creates the echo.

Doppler shift is also common. You probably experience it daily (often without realizing it). Doppler shift occurs when sound is generated by, or reflected off of, a moving object. Doppler shift in the extreme creates sonic booms (see below). Here's how to understand Doppler shift (you may also want to try this experiment in an empty parking lot). Let's say there is a car coming toward you at 60 miles per hour (mph) and its horn is blaring. You will hear the horn playing one "note" as the car approaches, but when the car passes you the sound of the horn will suddenly shift to a lower note. It's the same horn making the same sound the whole time. The change you hear is caused by Doppler shift.

Here's what is happening. The speed of sound through the air in the parking lot is fixed. For simplicity of calculation, let's say it's 600 mph (the exact speed is determined by the air's pressure, temperature and humidity). Imagine that the car is standing still, it is exactly 1 mile away from you and it toots its horn for exactly one minute. The sound waves from the horn will propagate from the car toward you at a rate of 600 mph. What you will hear is a six-second delay (while the sound travels 1 mile at 600 mph) followed by exactly one minute's worth of sound.


Doppler shift: The person behind the car hears a lower tone than the driver because the car is moving away. The person in front of the car hears a higher tone than the driver because the car is approaching.

Now let's say that the car is moving toward you at 60 mph. It starts from a mile away and toots it's horn for exactly one minute. You will still hear the six-second delay. However, the sound will only play for 54 seconds. That's because the car will be right next to you after one minute, and the sound at the end of the minute gets to you instantaneously. The car (from the driver's perspective) is still blaring its horn for one minute. Because the car is moving, however, the minute's worth of sound gets packed into 54 seconds from your perspective. The same number of sound waves are packed into a smaller amount of time. Therefore, their frequency is increased, and the horn's tone sounds higher to you. As the car passes you and moves away, the process is reversed and the sound expands to fill more time. Therefore, the tone is lower.

Sonic Boom
While we're here on the topic of sound and motion, we can also understand sonic booms. Say the car was moving toward you at exactly the speed of sound -- 700 mph or so. The car is blowing its horn. The sound waves generated by the horn cannot go any faster than the speed of sound, so both the car and the horn are coming at you at 700 mph, so all of the sound coming from the car "stacks up." You hear nothing, but you can see the car approaching. At exactly the same moment the car arrives, so does all of its sound and it is LOUD! That is a sonic boom.

The same phenomenon happens when a boat travels through water faster than waves travel through the water (waves in a lake move at a speed of perhaps 5 mph -- all waves travel through their medium at a fixed speed). The waves that the boat generates "stack up" and form the V-shaped bow wave (wake) that you see behind the boat. The bow wave is really a sonic boom of sorts. It is the stacked-up combination of all of the waves the boat has generated. The wake forms a V shape, and the angle of the V is controlled by the speed of the boat.

You can combine echo and doppler shift in the following way. Say you send out a loud sound toward a car moving toward you. Some of the sound waves will bounce off the car (an echo). Because the car is moving toward you, however, the sound waves will be compressed. Therefore, the sound of the echo will have a higher pitch than the original sound you sent. If you measure the pitch of the echo, you can determine how fast the car is going.

Understanding Radar
We have seen that the echo of a sound can be used to determine how far away something is, and we have also seen that we can use the Doppler shift of the echo to determine how fast something is going. It is therefore possible to create a "sound radar," and that is exactly what sonar is. Submarines and boats use sonar all the time. You could use the same principles with sound in the air, but sound in the air has a couple of problems:

* Sound doesn't travel very far -- maybe a mile at the most.
* Almost everyone can hear sounds, so a "sound radar" would definitely disturb the neighbors (you can eliminate most of this problem by using ultrasound instead of audible sound).
* Because the echo of the sound would be very faint, it is likely that it would be hard to detect.

Radar therefore uses radio waves instead of sound. Radio waves travel far, are invisible to humans and are easy to detect even when they are faint.


Photo courtesy NASA (left), Department of Defense (right)
Left: Antennas at Goldstone Deep Space Communications Complex (part of NASA's Deep Space Network) help provide radio communications for NASA's interplanetary spacecraft.

Right: Surface search radar and air search radar are mounted on the foremast of a guided missile destroyer.

Let's take a typical radar set designed to detect airplanes in flight. The radar set turns on its transmitter and shoots out a short, high-intensity burst of high-frequency radio waves. The burst might last a microsecond. The radar set then turns off its transmitter, turns on its receiver and listens for an echo. The radar set measures the time it takes for the echo to arrive, as well as the Doppler shift of the echo. Radio waves travel at the speed of light, roughly 1,000 feet per microsecond; so if the radar set has a good high-speed clock, it can measure the distance of the airplane very accurately. Using special signal processing equipment, the radar set can also measure the Doppler shift very accurately and determine the speed of the airplane.


The radar antenna sends out a short, high-power pulse of radio waves at a known frequency. When the waves hit an object, they echo off of it and the speed of the object Doppler-shifts the echo. The same antenna is used to receive the much-weaker signals that return.

In ground-based radar, there's a lot more potential interference than in air-based radar. When a police radar shoots out a pulse, it echoes off of all sorts of objects -- fences, bridges, mountains, buildings. The easiest way to remove all of this sort of clutter is to filter it out by recognizing that it is not Doppler-shifted. A police radar looks only for Doppler-shifted signals, and because the radar beam is tightly focused it hits only one car.

Police are now using a laser technique to measure the speed of cars. This technique is called lidar, and it uses light instead of radio waves. See How Radar Detectors Work for information on lidar technology.

For more on radar and its applications, check out the links on the next page.

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/radio.htm

[South African Military]

tnx for the post. Tht will clear up alot of posts.

[Gen. Sandworm]

I believe this question has been completly answered. From now on RTFM :D

[South African Military]

I believe this question has been completly answered. From now on RTFM :D

Yes. Please, nobody post anything more on "how radar works" etc. You may post if its directly to WW2 and Radar.

[FW-190 Pilot]

whats RTFM means?

[Gen. Sandworm]

whats RTFM means?


Private message sent.... out of good taste. If anyone else doesnt know what it means I suggest looking it up on the internet. Was more of a joke than anything.

[South African Military]

whats RTFM means?


Private message sent.... out of good taste. If anyone else doesnt know what it means I suggest looking it up on the internet. Was more of a joke than anything.

If there is any thing that you dont understand just go this site.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/

[King_Nothing]

IIRC there was a telly programme about radar and I think in the early years they were trying to create a device capable of killing the pilots of planes mid flight by making their blood boil or something.

[South African Military]

IIRC there was a telly programme about radar and I think in the early years they were trying to create a device capable of killing the pilots of planes mid flight by making their blood boil or something.

Well actually just before the war broke out, Britain got kindoff scared and knew something was up, because of what the Germans did in the Spanish Civil war. Well, they said that anyone who could discover a laser that would burn right through the cockpit and kill the pilot (that might be what you are thinking of.) they would give them a large sum of money (of course its upsurd.) but they only thought that this would work, because they thought the Germans possesed such a weapon.

[Percy]

nice to know how it's work!!
Nice picture!

[Sturmtruppen]

soviets used radars???

[Komissar Ombrok]

Yes, they used. But not such like british. That was an echo radar, lmodification ike used in u-boats. This type have a small zone of work, but very quality. For example, that old types of radar can lock the american stealth-bomber.

[FW-190 Pilot]

The Germans experimented with radar as well and stubbled on to modern concept. They discoverd a few of there test plane designs had an extremely low radar signature. This helped in leading to todays stealth technology.
do you know what exactly those aircraft are?
my bet is Me262

The Aircraft that you are talking about is the Gotha 229, here is a side view of one

http://www.kheichhorn.de/assets/images/Go229_2.jpg

And a Gotha 229 on flight trials

http://www.multifunktion.com/il2/go229testc.jpg

This Aircraft was also known as the Horten 229, Named after the 2 Brothers that designed it. Walter and Reimar Horten.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
are those bombers or fighters?

[South African Military]

The Germans experimented with radar as well and stubbled on to modern concept. They discoverd a few of there test plane designs had an extremely low radar signature. This helped in leading to todays stealth technology.
do you know what exactly those aircraft are?
my bet is Me262

The Aircraft that you are talking about is the Gotha 229, here is a side view of one

http://www.kheichhorn.de/assets/images/Go229_2.jpg

And a Gotha 229 on flight trials

http://www.multifunktion.com/il2/go229testc.jpg

This Aircraft was also known as the Horten 229, Named after the 2 Brothers that designed it. Walter and Reimar Horten.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
are those bombers or fighters?

I will suspect that the big one is a bomber, and it looks EXTREMELY similiar to the American B2 bomber:

http://photos1.blogger.com/img/7/1435/400/B2.jpg

[Gen. Sandworm]

I believe that the Horten 229 was the bomber that the Germans where hoping could make it to America and back but the project got less and less funding as the war went on. Yes in away this plane and a similiar plane made by the American during the war were the forerunners of the American B2 bomber.

[FW-190 Pilot]

I believe that the Horten 229 was the bomber that the Germans where hoping could make it to America and back but the project got less and less funding as the war went on. Yes in away this plane and a similiar plane made by the American during the war were the forerunners of the American B2 bomber.
i believe its not smart to bomb american, its so pointless in that stage, if i am hitler, i go for short range bombers that carries tons of bombs so that i could concentrade on bombing england, after the fall of england, american would not be a threat for a long long long time

[Man of Stoat]

The Germans experimented with radar as well and stubbled on to modern concept. They discoverd a few of there test plane designs had an extremely low radar signature. This helped in leading to todays stealth technology.
do you know what exactly those aircraft are?
my bet is Me262

The Aircraft that you are talking about is the Gotha 229, here is a side view of one

http://www.kheichhorn.de/assets/images/Go229_2.jpg

And a Gotha 229 on flight trials

http://www.multifunktion.com/il2/go229testc.jpg

This Aircraft was also known as the Horten 229, Named after the 2 Brothers that designed it. Walter and Reimar Horten.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
are those bombers or fighters?

I will suspect that the big one is a bomber, and it looks EXTREMELY similiar to the American B2 bomber:

http://photos1.blogger.com/img/7/1435/400/B2.jpg

They were designed to be fighters, they were just prototypes, and there was only 1 size.

Another point to note: the bottom "photo" is something from a FLIGHT SIMULATOR GAME, it is not a real photo.

Re. Radar: transmitter sends out radio waves. Metal object (i.e. a plane) reflects radio waves significantly. Decoder translates this into useful information. Wood, birds, canvas etc. do not reflect radar very well, so are not very visible. Certainly WW2 radar was incapable of seeing these things. We have much more sophisticated radars now that can "see" all kinds of things - some automatic door sensors are based on a doppler radar which is sensitive enough to pick up reflections from humans at close range.

[South African Military]

Question: I hear that the Germans had radar, not as sophisticated as the Allies but they still had. If radar could not detect wooden objects, then is that why the mosquito was such a good design during the war, being hard to locate?

[Bluffcove]

that and the fact that wooden airframe was much lighter than a metal on for the time, There was a promotional film released in the 1960's by dehavilland that I beleive was later released as a jigsaw in which they explainedt he thinking behind the Mosquito.

It starts as Lancaster - i think,
before explaining that in a bid to be faster they were going to remove the armour, and thus remove weaponry and areas of the superstructure, without the armour they have no need for as much lift, and so remove control surfaces,
without control surfaces they have no need for four power plants,
without the need for 4 power plants the fuel tanks can be ditched,
without that number of fuel tanks and power plants the entire airframe can be made wooden, I cant remember the exact order but its a remarkable film to watch, as the Mosquito appears out of this other plane.

[Ale]

My understanding was that the Mosquito was designed to be wooden, as there was a shortage of Aluminium in Britain in the earlier part of the war, so they designed a plane that could be made out of plywood.

This does not, of course, mean that they didn't start with a Lancaster and try to redesign it in wood, as you described.

Alex

[Bluffcove]

The de Havilland Aircraft Company was noted for it's light aircraft, such as the famous DH82 Tiger Moth, and some mixed construction transport planes. In 1936 they had built the DH91 Albatross airliner and mailplane entirely in wood. In 1938 de Havilland proposed to the Air Ministry that they should build a bomber or reconnaissance aircraft that would be so fast it could be unarmed. The Air Ministry was generally hostile to the plan and turned them down. In October 1938 they told de Havilland that their contribution was best served by building wings for one of the existing bomber programmes.

De Havilland was not put off and continued with their project as a private venture. The proposal was based on reducing weight by removing the gun turrets and and having a crew of two instead of six. The aircraft would be smaller and burn less fuel. With twin Merlins an unarmed bomber could carry 1,000lb (454kg) of bombs for 1,500 miles (2400km) at a speed of almost 400mph (644km/h) which was almost twice that of current British bombers.

With great foresight they proposed to build the aircraft predominately of wood; another item the Air Staff did not approve of. However de Havilland had surmised that in time of war aluminium for aircraft would be a very scarce commodity and so would those who were skilled in the construction. There would be, on the other hand, many experienced carpenters, piano, cabinet, and furniture makers available whose skills could be used.

Almost the entire plane was built of wood. The wings had two spars with double plywood skins on the top and single underneath. The fuselage was made with a sandwich of balsa between two ply skins built on spruce stringers. It was made in two sections split down the length and moulded on concrete formers. After all internal fuselage wiring and controls had been installed the two halves were then glued together. The flying control surfaces were of light alloy with a metal skin on the ailerons and fabric on the tail. The hydraulic plain flaps were wood. The coolant radiators were in the wing leading edge between the engines and the fuselage. The landing gear was simple twin shock struts filled with rubber blocks. Engine mounts were welded steel tube. The total weight of castings and forgings used in the aircraft was a mere 280lbs (127kg).

On the 1st March 1940 an order was given to de Havilland for 50 aircraft against Air Ministry Specification B.1/40 but was cancelled again in the aftermath of Dunkirk. After many false starts it was eventually re-instated on the 25th November 1940. The prototype Mosquito (W4050), which had been secretly built at Salisbury Hall near Hatfield, was flown for the first time on the 25th of November 1940. The aircraft was painted bright yellow so it would not be fired on by allied anti-aircraft guns or planes.

Original estimates were that, with twice the power of a Spitfire and twice the wetted area and over twice the weight, the Mosquito would still be 20mph (32km/h) faster than the Spitfire. The Air Ministry was very sceptical. When the prototype was officially tested at Boscombe Down in February 1941 they were proved wrong and it exceeded this estimate by achieving a top speed of 392mph (631km/h). It was the fastest aircraft in Bomber Command until May 1951.

Not everyone was happy about the aircraft. America's General Henry Arnold, who saw the plane fly on the 20 April 1941, was very enthusiastic and could see the potential. However when he returned to the USA and passed his information to five American aircraft manufacturers for assessment they unanimously opposed the aircraft. One of them, Beech, said "It appears as though this airplane has sacrificed serviceability, structural strength, ease of construction and flying characteristics in an attempt to use construction material which is not suitable for the manufacture of efficient airplanes".

This was later disproved during weight testing for the 4,000lb (1814kg) Cookie bomb. A Mosquito, DZ594/G, with an all-up weight of 21,500lbs (9752.4kg) had already proved it could lift four times the load it was originally designed for. On one test it was mistakenly loaded with 10,000lbs (4536kg) of ballast which it also lifted with no problems.

Once it had proved itself official attitudes towards the Mosquito changed and development went ahead. The wingspan was increased from 52ft 6in (16.00m) to 54ft 2in (16.51m). It was fitted with a larger tailplane, improved exhaust system, and lengthened nacelles that improved stability. Even though it had been designed as an unarmed aircraft there was still room to fit a variety of .303in (7.7mm) machineguns and 20mm and 57mm cannon in addition to the bomb load.

The de Havilland design and production staff made many contributions that were, apparently, outside their field of expertise. In October 1941, C.T. Wilkins, suggested that if the normal 500lb (227kg) British bombs were fitted with shorter or retractable fins then the Mosquito could carry four of them in the bomb bay. This was rejected with the claim that the bombs would then be unstable. Experiments soon showed that this was wrong and it was not long before all bombs were manufactured with shorter fins.

************************************************

Sorry to use the copy and paste form of "knowledge" Article seems to offer an explanation from all angles.

"It appears as though this airplane has sacrificed serviceability, structural strength, ease of construction and flying characteristics in an attempt to use construction material which is not suitable for the manufacture of efficient airplanes". that is a great quote

[South African Military]

Thanks for the info Bluffcove. I believe the Mosquito is reffered to as the "Wooden Wonder"

[reiver]

I know it's not exactly on topic, but the Mosquito was an extraordiarily effective fighter too :
"On the night of May 28-29,1942, Mosquito N.F.IIs scored their first "probable," and in the following three years Mosquito night-fighters racked up a score of approximately 600 enemy aircraft over the British Isles, and also destroyed 600 flying bombs in a two month period. They later operated in the bomber support role, their task being to defend the main heavy bomber streams over enemy territory. Of the 466 Mark II Mosquito fighters produced, some of the later aircraft had day-fighter finish and, with the AI radar removed, operated over Malta, Italy, Sicily and North Africa from the end of 1942 onwards."
Considering that, as a bomber, it relied primarily on it's ability to outrun all enemy fighters to get home, maybe it wasn't so suprising.

http://www.aviation-history.com/dehavilland/mosquito.html

[2nd of foot]

The wonders of the mossy never cease. The radar and cockpit was also used on jet night fighters.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Molins.htm

The RAF then became interested in fitting the Molins Gun in the de Havilland Mosquito, to form an airborne anti-tank weapon to replace the Hurricane IID which had been equipped with a pair of Vickers 40mm Class S guns. The aircraft was duly developed as the Mosquito FB Mk XVIII, popularly known as the "Tsetse", but by this time the RAF had lost interest in the anti-tank gun role so the aircraft were brought into service by Coastal Command for anti-ship (and specifically anti-U-boat) purposes. The Tsetse, of which about thirty were built, served with No.248 Squadron during 1944 and is credited with sinking a U-boat. Perhaps its most remarkable achievement occurred during an anti-shipping strike, when one Tsetse became involved in a melee with defending Luftwaffe aircraft. A Junkers 88 was careless enough to fly in front of a Tsetse, which promptly fired its big gun and demolished the Ju 88 with one shot!

[Voluntary Escaper]

I believe the Scharnhorst was crippled by radar-aimed gunnery from HMS Belfast, before being sunk by torpedo. I am unsure as to whether the other RN ships had this capability. Nearly 2,000 men were lost with the Scharnhorst.

[Firefly]

Yes the RN had radar controlled gunnery, by 1943 most Allied capital ships had it. I belive the German ships in 1940 carried the Seetakt radar. In keeping with theres a website for everything have a look at this:

http://www.radarworld.org/index.html

[BDL]

The Germans had naval fire control radar and surface search radar (Freya was used on shore to look for ships at sea) well before the allies (Britain had, of course, dedicated her research to using radar to find planes). One theory for the Graf Spee scuttling herself at River Plate was so the British wouldn't capture her and get the radar for themselve.

[South African Military]

How about Sonar? I think we would still be on topic:

Sonar or Asdic (Anti-Submarine Detection Investigation Commitee) was a British invention and was thought up around WW1 but only was possible and installed in 1941. These sonars had a beam that would search the waters, targets that fell into the search of the beam refelected a ping. They could then calculate the targets range based on the amount of time the ping bounced back.

These early sonars where very basic and had allot of problems. But they steadily advanced during the years.

[Man of Stoat]

How about Sonar? I think we would still be on topic:

Sonar or Asdic (Anti-Submarine Detection Investigation Commitee) was a British invention and was thought up around WW1 but only was possible and installed in 1941. These sonars had a beam that would search the waters, targets that fell into the search of the beam refelected a ping. They could then calculate the targets range based on the amount of time the ping bounced back.

These early sonars where very basic and had allot of problems. But they steadily advanced during the years.

What ASDIC did was combine an omnidirectional source of sound, the echoes of which were easily audible, with a normal hydrophone (a unidirectional underwater microphone). By pinging & listening to the hydrophone, range and bearing could be plotted.

[Walther]

Prior to WW2, all European powers were working on Radar, though the British were the most advanced. The big British invention was the magnetron, invented by Sir Dr. Watson-Watt, which enabled high power microwave pulses. The British were usualy one one decimal point ahead of the Germans, being able to use shorter wave lengths (e.g. the Germans used radio waves of a wave length of one meter, the British could use 0.10 meters). The shorter wave lengths greatly increased the resolution of the radar systems and also made the radar units less bulky, though then they were strictly line of sight. The older long wave radar sets of the Chain home stations were used for long range detection (because they could look over the horizon, even though their resolution was not too good, and the VHF radar was then used to pinpoint the targets and guide the fighters).

Jan

[Commando Jordovski]

I didn't think the !940's had radar back then, i knew the German detection technology was incredibly advanced but i was quite convinced they didn't have Radar detection units.

[Man of Stoat]

The Brits were light years ahead of the Germans in radar technology - it was this which allowed us to win the Battle of Britain.

Even the "cats eyes Cunningham" myth was propaganda to hide the fact that we had airbourne radar in our night fighters.

[Firefly]

I dont think it was the fact that the brits were light years ahead that was decisive in BoB. The fact that the Brits tied all the radar and observer resources into a manageable systed was decisive though, the radar and observers would feed all their information into the Sector Stations, which would compile and feed all the data up to group. The command and control element was the main factor in winning the battle as it enabled the Brits to have just enough aircraft in the air to counter German attacks instead of having to rely on standing patrols.

[Dani]

The Brits were light years ahead of the Germans in radar technology
:D Not light years mate :D
Freya radars:
Quoted from:
http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=3ibutqrmsft4k?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Freya+radar&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc02a&linktext=Freya%20radar

Freya radar was an early form of radar deployed by Nazi Germany during World War II, named after the Norse Goddess Freya. During the war over a thousand stations were built.
First tests of what would become the "Freya" early warning radar were conducted in early 1937, with initial delivery of an operational radar to the Kriegsmarine in 1938. It appeared to received a much lower priority than British radar until later in the war. The Freya radar was in fact much more sophisticated than the British Chain Home (CH) counterpart, and by operating in the 1.2 m wavelength (as opposed to ten times that for the CH) the Freya was able to be much smaller and yet offer better resolution. Yet by the start of the war only eight of these units were in operation, offering much less coverage.
Later in the war Freya operated in the band from 2.5 to 2.3 meters / 120 to 130 MHz, with a pulse width of 3 microseconds, a peak power output of 15 to 20 kW, and a PRF of 500 Hz. However it had a maximum range of only 160 kilometers (100 miles) and could not accurately determine altitude, making it inferior to CH in those respects, but it was a fully steerable and a mobile system.

My emboldment.

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/1927/freya10qy.jpg
Freya radar from http://www.radarworld.org/

[Man of Stoat]

Being able to accurately determine altitude is quite an important thing for a radar to do :wink:

[Dani]

Agree! :wink:

[Commando Jordovski]

The Brits were light years ahead of the Germans in radar technology - it was this which allowed us to win the Battle of Britain.

Even the "cats eyes Cunningham" myth was propaganda to hide the fact that we had airbourne radar in our night fighters.

No thats incorrect information Mate, they were infact behind the german techonology, until after the War.

[BDL]

The Brits were light years ahead of the Germans in radar technology - it was this which allowed us to win the Battle of Britain.

Even the "cats eyes Cunningham" myth was propaganda to hide the fact that we had airbourne radar in our night fighters.

No thats incorrect information Mate, they were infact behind the german techonology, until after the War.

Britain had better air detection radar.

Germany concentrated on surface search radar for ships to find other ships, which was why the British sent divers down to the Graf Spee after she scuttled at River Plate - to try and get the radar.

That's the way I always understood it anyway?

[Firefly]

The Brit radars couldnt detect height either. Thats what the observer Corp were there for in 1940.

[arhob1]

FW190 said:

wouldnt that be" very inefficient, the sky is so big and you can only scan a little at a time?"

In reality, with a basic radar set up you don't need to scan the entire sky (which is indeed very big). What you are primarily interested in is just teh horizon for early warning purposes. After all, all aircraft that approach you have to come over the horizon at some point (even a V2).

If you just focus on the horizon (and not say the sky above you or behind you) then you can easily identify:

1 - the direction to approaching aircraft.
2 - their range.
3 - from multiple positional plots also their heading.

This is why WW2 UK radar stations generally just sat looking out to sea (i.e. at the horizon).

Couple the above with an effective Observer Corps set up and you can track enemy movements quite easily. The Observer Corps added additional detail such as aircraft type and numbers. Modern radars will do all this automatically and much more besides, hence the Observer Corps being disbanded about ten years ago in the UK.

[Dani]

Hope that it's not off-topic:
German radar stations in Europe:
http://www.gyges.dk/Flum%20and%20Jagd.htm

[Keith.Brigstock]

While Radar is not my thing Anti Aircraft is. The development of Radar was being done well before the war and we had basically two types Chain Home High and Chain Home Low. Chain Home High had a range out to approximately 60 to 70 miles but due to ground clutter was not able to detect low flying aircraft hence Chain Home Low much had a much shorter range but could. Both required one antenna to transmit and a different to receive and this was not to change until close to the end of the war.

All the Chain Home Radars during the Battle of Britain only pointed out to sea and this is the main reason why we had the Observer Corps, once an enemy plain crossed the coast it was lost on radar. For night engagements the Ack Ack guns and night fighters relied on the Searchlights guided by sound detectors. As gun laying radars improved they became less reliant on searchlights but the same can’t be said about night fighters. As radar technology improved 1941 we had developed a radar guided searchlight called an SLC or Elsie as it was called.

With out getting to technical the frequency ranges were such that the Radar in the night fighter was useless when it was within 3 miles of its target. Hence the Searchlight with a beam range of 5 miles could pin point the target with its radar and then illuminated it for the night fighter. I hope this helps

[Drake]

Developed by the British before WW2 ...

If Britain hadnt of invented radar before the Battle of Britain ...

The Brits were light years ahead of the Germans in radar technology ...

Hi guys,
where did you get these ideas? Radar (though not yet called radar by that time) was invented and patented by Christian Hülsmeyer as early as 1904. US and British developments up to and throughout WW2 were based on discoveries and inventions from Hans Hollmann who conducted all groundbreaking research on microwaves. The British however put much more effort in installing a working air detection network prior to the war, though it was inferior from a strictly technological point of view.

[Gen. Sandworm]

Developed and "light year ahead" are not the same as invented. The basis of modern computing and computers come from various places. Yet it was the Americans that really DEVELOPED the computer as we know it today.

[Drake]

Developed and "light year ahead" are not the same as invented. The basis of modern computing and computers come from various places. Yet it was the Americans that really DEVELOPED the computer as we know it today.

Ok, I had misunderstood the "develop" part from your post as original invention.
:D Of course did GB develop Radarsets of all kinds. Light years ahead is still wrong though. A funny anecdote about the electronic war is that the germans sent a zeppelin with measuring equipment to check out whether those towers from Chain Home were Radarsets or not and figured they weren't because they couldn't detect any transmission. This was because Chain Home (High) worked in the Radioband which they didn't measure cause they considered such bandwidth unsuitable for the task (Which is both right and wrong. It is completely unsuitable for what we understand as radar today yet it served exactly the purpose the british intended, to give them early warning). So the fact that used inferior system at the beginning of hostilities saved them possibly some trouble later in the BoB.

[Topor]

Where Britain WAS far in advance of others was in the development of the Cavity Magnetron - essential for accurate radar, such as that installed in later night fighters. The first prototype was actually constructed using two English pennies to seal the tube!
The cavity magnetron put us way ahead of other nations, as it enabled the development of centimetric & later, millimetric radar.
Another British invention using Radar was the "VT" proximity fuse for AA shells: so called as the initials stood for "variable timing" - a deliberate misnomer to obscure the true nature of the fuse.
There was an embargo on the use of VT fuses outside the UK until December 1944 & the Battle of the Bulge, where they were fitted to artillery shells to cause air bursts above enemy infantry concentrations. The embargo was aimed at preventing the Germans from acquiring a fuse & copying it, as this would have had serious consequences for RAF & USAF Bombers.

[Drake]

Where Britain WAS far in advance of others was in the development of the Cavity Magnetron - essential for accurate radar, such as that installed in later night fighters. The first prototype was actually constructed using two English pennies to seal the tube!
The cavity magnetron put us way ahead of other nations, as it enabled the development of centimetric & later, millimetric radar.
Another British invention using Radar was the "VT" proximity fuse for AA shells: so called as the initials stood for "variable timing" - a deliberate misnomer to obscure the true nature of the fuse.
There was an embargo on the use of VT fuses outside the UK until December 1944 & the Battle of the Bulge, where they were fitted to artillery shells to cause air bursts above enemy infantry concentrations. The embargo was aimed at preventing the Germans from acquiring a fuse & copying it, as this would have had serious consequences for RAF & USAF Bombers.

Very True my friend :D, german radar research was based on the klystron, thats why the british managed to gain an advantage during the war as cavity magnetrons proved to be the better technology path in this crucial time.
But that was yet another deliberate decision by the german military officials which proved to be stupid (They were good at that, hehe, most of the top notch Nazi had no clue about technology, luckily). Hollmann build a multi-cavity magnetron in 1935 which was patented November 29, 1935. The british and americans made what the japanese did later with european and american electronics ;) they copied the design and improved it.
The germans only managed very late in the war to catch up again with the allies, but only theoretically, as they had no means left to actually field the developments whereas the allies had centimeter wavelength radar en masse and were beginning to field millimeter radar. What I intended to point out with my original post was the impact of Hollmann on this entire topic. Without his work in the 1930ies no radar of any significance in WW2, not in germany, not in england, nor anywhere else.
Radar today btw is based on either Klystron(mostly groundbased) or Travelling Wave Tube (mostly Airborne).
The travelling wave tube is btw. a invention by Rudolf Kompfner an austrian jew, but he made it in good old england during the war ;).

[Carl Schwamberger]

Another British invention using Radar was the "VT" proximity fuse for AA shells: so called as the initials stood for "variable timing" - a deliberate misnomer to obscure the true nature of the fuse.
There was an embargo on the use of VT fuses outside the UK until December 1944 & the Battle of the Bulge, where they were fitted to artillery shells to cause air bursts above enemy infantry concentrations. The embargo was aimed at preventing the Germans from acquiring a fuse & copying it, as this would have had serious consequences for RAF & USAF Bombers.

Theres a excellent book called 'The Deadly Fuze', written by one of the US electricl engineers involved in developing the US versions of this weapon. The inital chapters outline the early British work in inventing the VT or proximity fuze for their antiaircraft rockets. Prximity fuzes small enough to fit on cannon shells for anti aircraft came soon after.

The fuzes were authorized for naval antiaircraft use, as it was unlikely the enemy would be able to recover fragments or duds from the sea for inspection. In 1943 the Allied ships begain using these against Japanese air attacks in the Pacific with devastating effect. I dont recall when the prox.fuzes were first used in the Atlantic or Mediterranian for antiaircraft artillery.

The version for the field artillery was debated, and eventually authorized for production. It was originally intended for first use in a large scale attacked scehduled very close to new year of 1945. But, the German Ardennes operation effectively canceled that. The extremely accurate air bursts rendered possible by the VT fuze were a morale breaker for the German infantry. Its said German intellegence officers initially speculated the Allies had developed a infra red detection fuze that was triggered by the body heat of the soldiers.

[Clave]

I was in the RAF for 12 years, 8 of which were on Ground Radar and 4 on Bloodhound Missiles (also heavily radar dependent) as part of UKADGE (UK Air Defence Ground Environment)

Pretty much all the stuff I worked on (70s and 80s) has been disbanded and/or replaced, so feel free to ask anything, as I think my 'Top Secret' classification is now redundant... ;)

Oh, and yes, I do have a profile of a Bloodhound...

http://clave.warpstorm.com/gallery-b/Bloodhound_Site.jpg

[Major Walter Schmidt]

Ur.. its the HORTEN 229. Its just a mistake by Revell.