S.A.S.

[South African Military]

S.A.S. or Special Air Service. If anybody knows any good sites thats about the S.A.S. please post. If anyone wants to comment or say anything about the S.A.S please post.

[lieutlienant Vorontsov]

I dont now many about S.A.S, but I know this is one of the greatest secret service of II WW!

[South African Military]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/herefordandworcester/features/sas/sas.shtml

You might want to look at this link. Theres not much on the site, but if you click on the Slideshow, it will give you a brief history of the S.A.S, and there is even a color picture from WW2! :D

[Dani]

Also check this one:
http://www.regiments.org/regiments/uk/specfor/SAS.htm#bh
and: http://www.army.mod.uk/uksf/index.htm (or: http://www.army.mod.uk/uksf/special_forces_soldier_reserve_/sas.htm )

[Gen. Sandworm]

Good post Dani.......S.A.S. is the father of all modern special forces. I think they are still the best today.

[Cactus]

http://www.belgiansas.com/

http://www.alliedspecialforces.org/saswebsites.htm

[WildBoar]

They were the Original Special Forces.

There seems to be a bit of confusion with some people about their origins but they were a seperate entity from the LRDG and not the same as SOE.

I expect people on here knew that already but it still happens on TV programs today :roll:

The foreign SAS units were formed alongside and fought with the British such as the Australians and Belgians etc.

[South African Military]

Ive never heard of the LRDG. The S.O.E. is probably the best secret agents in WW2.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/soe_01.shtml

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/soe_training_01.shtml

I HIGHLY reccomend the links above EXPECIALLY the first link. There is alot of information obout the S.O.E. and what they did.

[WildBoar]

Well the Long Range Desert Group were a specialist recconaisance Unit that operated behind enemy lines in the Deserts of North Africa and I'm sure you'll find some info if you do a search.

The early SAS raids after their first failed Parachute drop tagged along and learnt from them.

[Percy]

By the way , the SAS wasn't the first commando.
When they were created by Stirling, other commandos already exist.
You write about the Long Range Desert Group: they were the first created in North Africa. Bye they only had intelligence mission. That's why Stirling creat he's own group...for demolition and attack purpose.

Another commando ( a special one) was Popski's private army. They've done quite a lot of things , specially on the rear of the Afrika Korp.

[Gen. Sandworm]

Well Sean Connery was SAS and did a pretty good job storming Alcatraz with Nicholas Cage. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Im refering to the movie "The Rock" if youve never see it.

[South African Military]

Well Sean Connery was SAS and did a pretty good job storming Alcatraz with Nicholas Cage. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Im refering to the movie "The Rock" if youve never see it.

it was an "alright" movie

[maninblack]

For information about the many varied groups running arund the desert spend a few dollars on EBAY and buy a copy of Popski's Private Army.

PPA predated the SAS and were specialists in long range recce and sabatage.

[LargeBrew]

You could also try google for sad mussies,I'm sure you would get loads of SAS links

[PzKpfw VI Tiger]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Air_Service

Wikipedia saves teh day once again!! :D

[SMLE]

WW2 SAS medal group up for auction: http://www.speedbid.com/lot.cfm?lotID=356080

[reiver]

A wonderful piece of trivia about the SOE from a UKTV History programme/article :

Scientists working for Britain's Special Operations Executive equipped its secret agents with several fiendish weapons, including a firearm that could be hidden in a sleeve and a miniature gun disguised as a cigar. But the most unusual SOE "weapon" was surely itching powder. SOE agents contaminated uniforms with itching powder in an attempt to lower morale among selected groups of enemy personnel. U-boat crews were singled out for special attention. At least one operational U-boat had to return to base because the crew believed they were suffering from an acute skin condition that made it impossible for them to concentrate on their work. Itching powder was also placed into condoms destined for use by German servicemen stationed in Norway. Resistance sources reported that the results were extremely uncomfortable for the occupiers…

http://www.uktv.co.uk/?uktv=standarditem.index&aID=529809

[PzKpfw VI Tiger]

A wonderful piece of trivia about the SOE from a UKTV History programme/article :

Scientists working for Britain's Special Operations Executive equipped its secret agents with several fiendish weapons, including a firearm that could be hidden in a sleeve and a miniature gun disguised as a cigar. But the most unusual SOE "weapon" was surely itching powder. SOE agents contaminated uniforms with itching powder in an attempt to lower morale among selected groups of enemy personnel. U-boat crews were singled out for special attention. At least one operational U-boat had to return to base because the crew believed they were suffering from an acute skin condition that made it impossible for them to concentrate on their work. Itching powder was also placed into condoms destined for use by German servicemen stationed in Norway. Resistance sources reported that the results were extremely uncomfortable for the occupiers…

http://www.uktv.co.uk/?uktv=standarditem.index&aID=529809


nice info Reiver, :D , for the record, I like the pic of ur Grandady as ur Avatar, you said he was in the Luftwaffe?

[reiver]

A wonderful piece of trivia about the SOE from a UKTV History programme/article :

Scientists working for Britain's Special Operations Executive equipped its secret agents with several fiendish weapons, including a firearm that could be hidden in a sleeve and a miniature gun disguised as a cigar. But the most unusual SOE "weapon" was surely itching powder. SOE agents contaminated uniforms with itching powder in an attempt to lower morale among selected groups of enemy personnel. U-boat crews were singled out for special attention. At least one operational U-boat had to return to base because the crew believed they were suffering from an acute skin condition that made it impossible for them to concentrate on their work. Itching powder was also placed into condoms destined for use by German servicemen stationed in Norway. Resistance sources reported that the results were extremely uncomfortable for the occupiers…

http://www.uktv.co.uk/?uktv=standarditem.index&aID=529809


nice info Reiver, :D , for the record, I like the pic of ur Grandady as ur Avatar, you said he was in the Luftwaffe?

Hi PzKpfw VI Tiger
I think you have me confused with Walther :)
My avatar is my father, (yes, I'm that old) in the uniform of the Royal Artillery.
His job, since he served in an ack-ack Battery in WW2, was to try to shoot down Walther's Grandfather (among others):)

[PzKpfw VI Tiger]

A wonderful piece of trivia about the SOE from a UKTV History programme/article :

Scientists working for Britain's Special Operations Executive equipped its secret agents with several fiendish weapons, including a firearm that could be hidden in a sleeve and a miniature gun disguised as a cigar. But the most unusual SOE "weapon" was surely itching powder. SOE agents contaminated uniforms with itching powder in an attempt to lower morale among selected groups of enemy personnel. U-boat crews were singled out for special attention. At least one operational U-boat had to return to base because the crew believed they were suffering from an acute skin condition that made it impossible for them to concentrate on their work. Itching powder was also placed into condoms destined for use by German servicemen stationed in Norway. Resistance sources reported that the results were extremely uncomfortable for the occupiers…

http://www.uktv.co.uk/?uktv=standarditem.index&aID=529809


nice info Reiver, :D , for the record, I like the pic of ur Grandady as ur Avatar, you said he was in the Luftwaffe?

Hi PzKpfw VI Tiger
I think you have me confused with Walther :)
My avatar is my father, (yes, I'm that old) in the uniform of the Royal Artillery.
His job, since he served in an ack-ack Battery in WW2, was to try to shoot down Walther's Grandfather (among others):)

oh, dangit, well appolgies, probably not the best thing in the world to mistake a Royal Artillery Officer with a Luftwaffe pilot. thats pretty cool though. My grandpa had a desk job, he only saw a teeney bit of combat. Also, BDLs grandad landed at Omaha beach on Dday, this is kinda like a community of people related to vets.

[festamus]

Hi PzKpfw VI Tiger
I think you have me confused with Walther :)
My avatar is my father, (yes, I'm that old) in the uniform of the Royal Artillery.
His job, since he served in an ack-ack Battery in WW2, was to try to shoot down Walther's Grandfather (among others):)

My grandfather served with a Royal Artillery ack-ack unit during the war. As did his older brother in fact (who "claimed" him).

Interest factor - low. But it's interesting that men could "claim" their younger brothers. Although apparently my grandfather was told "you can't be claimed, you're a lance-bombardier" which he promptly gave up so that he could serve with his brother.

[Sturmtruppen]

A wonderful piece of trivia about the SOE from a UKTV History programme/article :

Scientists working for Britain's Special Operations Executive equipped its secret agents with several fiendish weapons, including a firearm that could be hidden in a sleeve and a miniature gun disguised as a cigar. But the most unusual SOE "weapon" was surely itching powder. SOE agents contaminated uniforms with itching powder in an attempt to lower morale among selected groups of enemy personnel. U-boat crews were singled out for special attention. At least one operational U-boat had to return to base because the crew believed they were suffering from an acute skin condition that made it impossible for them to concentrate on their work. Itching powder was also placed into condoms destined for use by German servicemen stationed in Norway. Resistance sources reported that the results were extremely uncomfortable for the occupiers…

http://www.uktv.co.uk/?uktv=standarditem.index&aID=529809


nice info Reiver, :D , for the record, I like the pic of ur Grandady as ur Avatar, you said he was in the Luftwaffe?

Hi PzKpfw VI Tiger
I think you have me confused with Walther :)
My avatar is my father, (yes, I'm that old) in the uniform of the Royal Artillery.
His job, since he served in an ack-ack Battery in WW2, was to try to shoot down Walther's Grandfather (among others):)

wow

[Walther]

My paternal grandfather was a Luftwaffe AA gunner, though my maternal step grandfather was a Luftwaffe pilot (and later makeshift Fallschirmjäger).
But unless your RA grandfather was based in Northern Africa or Malta, I don't think they would have ever met...

Jan

[South African Military]

My paternal grandfather was a Luftwaffe AA gunner, though my maternal step grandfather was a Luftwaffe pilot (and later makeshift Fallschirmjäger).
But unless your RA grandfather was based in Northern Africa or Malta, I don't think they would have ever met...

Jan

Possibly your grandfather dropped a couple of bombs on my grandfather! :lol: Well both of them, but mainly the one working in the Air force (he said that a bunch of bombs landed very near to his base in Italy)

[BDL]

oh, dangit, well appolgies, probably not the best thing in the world to mistake a Royal Artillery Officer with a Luftwaffe pilot. thats pretty cool though. My grandpa had a desk job, he only saw a teeney bit of combat. Also, BDLs grandad landed at Omaha beach on Dday, this is kinda like a community of people related to vets.

Sword beach mate - Omaha was where the Americans landed

[South African Military]

oh, dangit, well appolgies, probably not the best thing in the world to mistake a Royal Artillery Officer with a Luftwaffe pilot. thats pretty cool though. My grandpa had a desk job, he only saw a teeney bit of combat. Also, BDLs grandad landed at Omaha beach on Dday, this is kinda like a community of people related to vets.

Sword beach mate - Omaha was where the Americans landed

hehe, you can easily tell hes American :D

[Caliber]

sas is imo the best spec. force army in the world

[reiver]

Off topic I know, but perhaps the Mods may be forgiving :)


Hi PzKpfw VI Tiger
I think you have me confused with Walther :)
My avatar is my father, (yes, I'm that old) in the uniform of the Royal Artillery.
His job, since he served in an ack-ack Battery in WW2, was to try to shoot down Walther's Grandfather (among others):)

My grandfather served with a Royal Artillery ack-ack unit during the war. As did his older brother in fact (who "claimed" him).

Interest factor - low. But it's interesting that men could "claim" their younger brothers. Although apparently my grandfather was told "you can't be claimed, you're a lance-bombardier" which he promptly gave up so that he could serve with his brother.

As far as I can make out from his "Record of Service" document, my Dad joined the 310 A.A. Coy, R.E. (TA) in February 38, and served with them until October '38.
I've discovered that this company became a wartime-only unit of the Essex Regiment, which the same document shows he served with from 1st November '38 until 31st July '40, at which point he apparently transferred (was transferred?) to the Royal Artillery.
On the back of the pic in my avatar is written, in his handwriting, his name and service number, with the rank of Lance Sergeant, and the date January 28 1941, just two months before his 23rd birthday.
As I've said elsewhere, he finished the war as a WO2 (Battery Sergeant Major)

(Edited to add the "off-topic" comment)

[Bluffcove]

Has anyone got any more information on the couterpoint to the LRDG.
The heavily armoured bedfords that would resupply the LEDG but hten on return to Lines purposefully engage in unnign firefights?

Jock columns? Jack Columns? Cant remeber the name entirely :?
On topic- LRDG were an influence and aid to the formation of 22Reg

(22reg was so named so that the enemy would believe we had more units and spend more troops guarding their rear)

[Walther]

A wonderful piece of trivia about the SOE from a UKTV History programme/article :

Scientists working for Britain's Special Operations Executive equipped its secret agents with several fiendish weapons, including a firearm that could be hidden in a sleeve and a miniature gun disguised as a cigar. But the most unusual SOE "weapon" was surely itching powder. SOE agents contaminated uniforms with itching powder in an attempt to lower morale among selected groups of enemy personnel. U-boat crews were singled out for special attention. At least one operational U-boat had to return to base because the crew believed they were suffering from an acute skin condition that made it impossible for them to concentrate on their work. Itching powder was also placed into condoms destined for use by German servicemen stationed in Norway. Resistance sources reported that the results were extremely uncomfortable for the occupiers…

http://www.uktv.co.uk/?uktv=standarditem.index&aID=529809

I have a reprint of the catalogue issued to SOE agents of all the equipment available for their jobs. Pure James Bond stuff!

Jan

[Hosenfield]

Isn't the leader of the SAS Sean Connery?

[Cuts]

Isn't the leader of the SAS Sean Connery?

Hahahahahaha !

Yeah, he's the leader of Sellout And Scoot.
:wink:

[Bladensburg]

That's Sir Sean, a rabid Scottish Nationalist from his well known Scottish seats in Spain and the Carribean. :roll:

Edited for typo.

[1000ydstare]

Bluffcove wrote

22reg was so named so that the enemy would believe we had more units and spend more troops guarding their rear

Not too sure about this.

If anyone else knows give us a shout.

I think that there was several SAS units, 1 through to about 8, during the WW2.

1 later became the Parachute Regiment. Hence the name of their parachute display team "The Red Devils".

This is what the Germans called them in the desert, as they would be covered in red dust whilst out in the desert. Hence the colouring of the famous pinkies!!!

22SAS was so named because it was the next number up from 21.

At the end of WW2 the SAS were disbanded (they were seen as useful in war but not in peace!!!), but luckily a plan to preserve their experience was hatched.

They were attached to the Rifle Brigade for Admin and pay, and adopted the title of the 38th Middlesex (Artists) Rifles, and were technically TA.

They became the 21 (Artists) SAS Regt.

The 38th Battalion was formed from conscripted artsy farty types during WW2 and thus took thier name from this fact., similar to the Bankers Battailion which was all conscripted from London bankers.

Although artsy farty, the Battalion became one of the most decorated battalions in the war!!! Their capbadge is on the right hand side of the main enterence to RMA Sandhurst, the other side being RMAS's capbadge.

After 21 had done so well during the Malaya campaign (I think), the Army decided it would be good to have a regular contingent, and thus 22SAS were formed. Later a 2nd TA regiment 23SAS were formed.

The sandy beret was adopted in memory of their formation in the desert or so the legend goes, during WW2 they actually wore white berets!!!

Scarab wings, the qualification badge of the SAS, were originally worn over the left (?) breast pocket of the fatigue dress worn during WW2. Later they were moved to the RHS shoulder, like the British Armys Para qualification badge.

The LRDG eventually were used by the SAS to ferry them out and pick them up from ops in the desert. This was after various problems were encountered with the use of parachutes. I think on the first raid over half the men dropped were lost, many being blown off in to the desert by fierce winds even when they had landed (but still attached to their parachutes!!!)

The LRDG also helped train the SAS. At the start they were very disorganised and raw. Although very soon they were a force to be reckoned with!!! Experience from all of the specialist units of WW2 was retained with 21SAS including men from the LRDG.

The modern SAS can claim a very mixed and able bloodline.

Interesting point, although possibley legend, is that the colours of the SAS, light and dark blue, were adopted because most of the original recruits had attended Oxford or Cambridge University. I do not know if this is true or not!!!!

The flaming dagger is reputed to be either Excalibur, Sword of Damecles or a third that I can't remember.

[Bluffcove]

Sorry I meant to say 21' I was unclear on the finer points.

There were not 20+ SAS units active but that the numbering of the units was "set" so as to make it appear the force appear larger to anyone that might be taking an undue or unhealthy interest in British forces.

[2nd of foot]

Although they where part of airborne forces when they returned to civilisation (after Africa) and hence had a red hat.

The pink comes from another observation. A crashed aircraft was used for many years as a marker for an airfield in the desert before the days of RDF. Then it disappeared, on closer observation it was found that it had been bleached pink in the desert sun and become difficult to see. Also look at early pictures of Matildas in three-colour cam.

The flaming dagger is reputed to be either Excalibur, Sword of Damecles or a third that I can't remember.

Winged dagger is the Sword of Damocles.

[Commando Jordovski]

Isn't the leader of the SAS Sean Connery?

He's a good actor though :D even if he's a slightly bit old. :D

[PzKpfw VI Tiger]

Isn't the leader of the SAS Sean Connery?

Wait, you mean like the James Bond Sean Connery? :lol: :oops:

[Commando Jordovski]

Isn't the leader of the SAS Sean Connery?

Wait, you mean like the James Bond Sean Connery? :lol: :oops:

Yeah hes done a few movies...james bond...league of extraordinary Gentlemen ect :D .. hes scottish through and through in the movies...he sometimes tries and puts an american accent on that sounds funny. :lol:

[pdf27]

Bluffcove wrote
22reg was so named so that the enemy would believe we had more units and spend more troops guarding their rear
Not too sure about this.
If anyone else knows give us a shout.
My understanding is that a fictional unit called "22nd Special Air Service" had been set up in order to persuade the Germans that the British had parachute troops in North Africa some time before David Stirling had his big idea. Some guy or other was at the time energetically paradropping dummies near PoW camps in the hope the news would get back to the Germans. Stirling was then given the name 22nd SAS as much to make keeping up the deception work much easier (he intended at the time to arrive at targets by parachute) as anything else, and it's kind of stuck.

Source for this is this book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0786121483/qid=1124456993/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-0217813-2463202?v=glance&s=books), although I've got the paper version not the audio one. Fairly illuminating if somewhat sensationalised.

[drummerboy]

David Sterling had originally got permission from Gen. Aunchinlek and Ritchie to form the SAS after he snuck into Ritchie's office. The British High Command gave Sterling a promotion to Captain and a slection of 6 officers and 60 recruits from the old Layforce formation. The objective was to use a infiltration by air. The unit was designated L Detachment, Special Air Service Brigade. The L was to make the Germans think that the force had units from A to L. The actual stength was just over a platton in size. After the first and last disaterous jump in the desert, Stirling searched for an alterative method of infiltration. The LRDG suited the SAS perfectly until the war in North Africa was over. The LRDG would now serve as a part of this special force. The SAS finally grew to Brigade strength by 1944. this included 1 and 2 SAS Regt. 1st and 4th French para Btn and a Belgian Ind Coy. This force would serve in France, Germany and Italy. The Italian campaign is their most extensive of the war.


The SAS insignia was original designed by Sgt. Bob Tait after L Detachment held a contest for best design. The sword IS Excalibuer and the slogan "Who Dares Wins" is Stirlings. The wings are the idea of Paddy Mayne. The original SAS beret was considered white but was quickly changed to sand tan. After amalgamation to the airborne forces, the beret became Red.


P.S. all this from memory, no copies of anything!!

[Andy4038]

The Special Air Service was formed in Kabrit, Egypt, The original conceipt
Was the brain child of A Lt David Stirling, A Scotish liard of the Scots Guards regiment, who had been a member of layforce commandos,
The initail members were Lt David Stirling (UK) Lt Jock Lewis (Aus) Lt Robert Blair (Paddy)Mayne (Irl) Bob D'Arcy (UK) John (Gentleman Jim) Almond (UK) Pat Riley (US) Reg Seeking (UK) Bob Lilley (UK) Jim Blakeny (UK) Bob Bennet (UK) Johnny Cooper (UK) and Dave Kershaw (UK)

The Long range desert Group were initialy responsible for picking up S.A.S troops after there mission, but were later used for transporting troops too and from missions.
The name Special Air Service came from Dudley Clark's deseption unit in Eygpt Clark visited Stirling in hospital and gave him permision to use his units name. Stirling's unit became L Detachment The Special Air Service.

The Cap Badge Is not a winged dagger as is wildly believed but Excaliber
The parchute wings are the flaming wings of cairo with a parachute in the middle instead of an eagle, the moto Who Dares Wins was Daivid Stirling's idea.

The Numbers relating to the Regiments were also a desception to confuse the enemy as to how many units there actualy were.

the modern day S.A.S has three units 21 S.A.S (The Artist Rifles(V))
22 S.A.S (Regular Army)
23 S.A.S (V)

[Crab_to_be]

I thought the sword was also possibly the Sword of Damocles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_of_Damocles).

[Andy4038]

The S.A.S cap badge was designed by Bob Tait, the sword is Excaliber, he called it the flamming sword of Excaliber, the original moto he came up with was Strike and Destroy, which was changed by stirling to Who Dares Wins, The Wings were designed by Jock Lewis, he saw them over the shops in Cairo, they had an eagle in the middle which he changed to a parachute.

[Cuts]

I was under the distinct impression that originally the capbadge was supposed to be a flaming sword.
When they arrived from the Gyppo manufacturer the flames looked more like wings and it was left at that,
there being little point in ordering new ones as apparently there was a war on or something.

[Andy4038]

I can only go of the research i have done, My information comes from taped interviews from 20 years ago with, David Stirling, Bob Bennet, Johnny Cooper, Jim Almond, Reg Seeking, Dave Kershaw and Pat Riley.

Those were the guys who were there. The then surviving Originals.

[Cuts]

Sounds good, do you have a link to these interviews ?

[Andy4038]

The interveiws are in a book called, The originals the secret history of the british SAS By Gorden Stevens.

[Cuts]

Cheers for that Andy, I'll have a read of it soon.

I just posted a pic in the BLACK AND WHITE section of th gallery that shows what appears to be British SAS returning from a mission. Looks awesome.

[LargeBrew]

WW2 admin, I've just checked the photo you posted. I dont believe they are SAS. The Dieppe raid was in 1942 and IIRC SAS didn't operate in France until 1944.

Thanks for the info!

[THE SARGE]

The pommie SAS was actually disbanded and then reformed in order to meet the communist insurgent threat of the late 50's and 60's in Malaya, Borneo etc. The SAS role, today, is very similar to that of both the LRDG and the then-SAS, with the SBS and RM Commandos providing their input in their own specialist environments. i.e. Commandos - recovery and harrassment missions associated with sea-borne insertions. SBS also has long range/strategic reconnaissance in mostly maritime environments.
The SAS is tasked with strategic recon, plus "Special Projects" i.e. counter-terrorism. :shock:

Great info. I was always under the impression that SAS started in 1942, but I appear to be wrong (again) :oops:

[Sanktwo]

I am in communication with an ex-member of the British SAS. He doesn't 'do' computers and Internet, not unreasonably since he is 84, so it is snailmail. I first met him in the early 1970s. We exchange a few letters.

He was already in the army at the outbreak of WW2, volunteered for the Commandos, trained in Scotland and was picked for the SAS. Not for that first disastrous mission, but shortly thereafter. He fought in North Africa, Italy, France, Germany, Norway. His chief for most of the time was Roy Farran 2SAS if that means anything to you all. He was presented with the croix de guerre for his efforts in France with Leclerc.

If you want to pass a message to him or perhaps ask a question, if it is reasonable and not likely to be too upsetting, I offer to pass one or two things on to him. Remember though he is getting on in years, so don't expect too much detail if you ask questions. Also, the time delay is at least a month between the question and the next letter which may or may not contain an answer!

Of course, the first stop to learn the history of the SAS is not my contact but a book like "Stirlings men" by Gavin Mortimer ISBN: 0304367060 or "Daggers Drawn: Real Heroes of the SAS and SBS" Mike Morgan ISBN: 0750930586

[Firefly]

Hi mate and welcome aboard. Others would do well to emulate your first post. Informative, friendly and offerring to help.

Glad to have you on board and thanks for the info.

[Canaris]

The Long Range Desert Group was in existance sometime before the SAS and did have an offensive role attacking German airbases and other rear area targets.

21 is so called because it is an amalgamaition of 1st and 2nd SAS. 22 and 23 are next in sequence. I can't remember how 21 got its association with the Artist Rifles buit I'm quite sure that the Artist Rifles were not artsy conscripts of WWII but artsy volunteers of WWI.

[1000ydstare]

Hi all, just dropping in for a visit.

During World War 1 most of the conscripts to the 38th Rifles were artists and poets and writers etc.

It is quite common for units during wars to be made up of men called from the same area and/or the same trade. Because of this they were often nick named what this association was. There was also a Bankers Battalion (made up from City bankers), Post Office Rifles (made up of posties) and the Pals battailions such as the Manchester Pals and Halifax Pals. who all came from those areas.

The Artists came from the fact that a group of artists formed the volunteer unit in the 1850s. The unit has always been TAVR or Territorial Army Volunteer Reserve (although with different names). Not Militia whose units never served abroad but were raised to defend Britian in event of invasion. There were once three Bns the 20th, 28th and 38th who were the Artists Rifle Corps. Basically they were part of the Rifle Brigade but wore a different capbadge to the others units.

One point to note however is it may seem comical that a Bn of artists was formed, and you could be forgiven for making comic references to arty farty types running around playing soldiers but do not. The unit saw much fighting during WW1 in the places now famous for the most appalling conditions and savage fighting, it was annailated several times and was always formed again from mainly artists, by the end of the war 1 in 3 members held awards for gallantry. Many of the most famous poems about WW1 came from poets in the ranks of the Artists rifles. They also served with distinction during the Baor war.

WW1 battle honours include Ypres 1917, Passchendaele, Cambrai 1918, Pursuit to Mons and Flanders 1914-18

Famous people amongst its ranks included Barnes Wallace who invented amongst other things the Wellington bomber and the Bouncing bombs of Dam Busters fame and the smaller version High Ball(?) for attacking ships. He also designed Tall Boy and Grand Slam bombs which were massive bombs designed to penetrate deep under ground and basically shake the target area apart.

Also Wilfred Owen, who wrote many poems about the War, and Noel Coward.

Some links for further info

www.artistsrifles.com/ artists-rifles-regiment.htm

www.hcu.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/jtap/board/config.pl?noframes;read=2155

www.regiments.org/regiments/uk/specfor/SAS.htm

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/ARTrifles.htm

Also a point to note, the Artists capbadge is on the one side of the entry to the Old College building at Sandhurst, a flick back to the days when the Bn was used as an Officer training unit I think.

www.artistsrifles.com/ images/Mars-Minerva.jpg
The Bn capbadge.

The association with the SAS came about because for a long time various people had kept the SAS alive, by forming a plt here and a section there to keep the skills and experience in the army. Luckily the powers on high eventually allowed the forming of a specific regiment. Although TA it was actually a little bit more full time than the powers probably realised. The unit needed a parent division and so the Rifle Brigade was picked, and the Artists Rifles title was used. Thus the new unit was named 21st Battalion, Special Air Service (Artists Rifles) of the Rifle Brigade.

For any capbadge collectors out there, it is worth noting that you can often find the Artists capbadge listed as 21 SAS, it is not. This is probably someway of increasing the appeal of the capbadge. As far as I am aware the moment the 21 SAS were formed they wore their own capbadge, the winged dagger, not the artists capbadge. Also early on the SAS wore a white beret, with the sandy beret only being worn about the 1950s I think to represent their origins in the desert. The artists capbadge is mainly used as a identifier for 21 to seperate them from 22 and 23.