This might be why Japanese cannot conquered China

[FW-190 Pilot]

i believe its their tank tachnolgy problem, i bet japan would have a much easier time to invade china if they have tanks that has at least 75mm cannon and 60mm armour, most of the japan tanks are a joke even when compare to the Americans pre-war tank. What do you think if Germany would teach the japanese on how to make better tank, do you think the japanese can have a lightning war on china too?

[South African Military]

Hey no offense, but i dont think that u should call them japs. :)

[FW-190 Pilot]

Hey no offense, but i dont think that u should call them japs. :)
there, just change it
do you think japanese can have an easier time to invade china with better tanks?
or China is destroying everything in the city before retreating, that might make tanks in the pacific war not as relevant in the war due to limited resource of oil

[TexWiller]

did you know that they had 100.000 soldiers in Manchuria and these soldiers didn't even fired a single bullet?

[FW-190 Pilot]

did you know that they had 100.000 soldiers in Manchuria and these soldiers didn't even fired a single bullet?
the japanese are good at aircraft and navy, their tanks are so weak that old soviet tanks are going to beat them, one of their better tank has 150hp on 9 tons of vehicle, and process 20mm cannon, do you expected them to have great sucess with them, i really doubt it :wink:

[TexWiller]

i'm not saying that.but you can not win battles with just tanks.what is a tank with its crew starved to death?100.000 men means a new front...

[Gen. Sandworm]

Alot of the reasons Germany did so well in the beginning of the war was superior tactics. Japan on the other hand didnt seem to have focused much on land offensive doctrine. Seems to me they focused on more naval and air tactics.

[HEINRICI]

Alot of the reasons Germany did so well in the beginning of the war was superior tactics. Japan on the other hand didnt seem to have focused much on land offensive doctrine. Seems to me they focused on more naval and air tactics.
Japan's army doctrine seemed to focus on bushido, or fighting spirit.
They thought supeior fighting spirit could overcome material superiority.
They thought Americans were decadent.

[South African Military]

Alot of the reasons Germany did so well in the beginning of the war was superior tactics. Japan on the other hand didnt seem to have focused much on land offensive doctrine. Seems to me they focused on more naval and air tactics.
Japan's army doctrine seemed to focus on bushido, or fighting spirit.
They thought supeior fighting spirit could overcome material superiority.
They thought Americans were decadent.

ya, well actually the Japanese where really good fighters, but they shouldve of also spend more time on the tactics and technology. The Japanese-Americans who fought against Japan, was the most courages group that suffered the most loses of any other regiment.

[Gen. Sandworm]

ya, well actually the Japanese where really good fighters, but they shouldve of also spend more time on the tactics and technology. The Japanese-Americans who fought against Japan, was the most courages group that suffered the most loses of any other regiment.


Im pretty sure that no (or very little) Japanese-Americans fought against Japan. There was a Japanese-American unit that fought in Italy that suffered heavy losses. It was one of the most highly decorated units in the American armed forces. Maybe this is what you were thinking of??

[South African Military]

ya, well actually the Japanese where really good fighters, but they shouldve of also spend more time on the tactics and technology. The Japanese-Americans who fought against Japan, was the most courages group that suffered the most loses of any other regiment.


Im pretty sure that no (or very little) Japanese-Americans fought against Japan. There was a Japanese-American unit that fought in Italy that suffered heavy losses. It was one of the most highly decorated units in the American armed forces. Maybe this is what you were thinking of??

Ya that might be it, but I think some units fought in Japan. I heard that when America occupied Japan right after the war, the Americans where slightly interactive with the Japanese, but the Japanese-Americans wanted nothing to do with Japan. Mostly because they wanted to prove that they are American and not Japanese.

If anyone here is familer with the camps that the Americans put the Japanese in, right after pearl habor,(I am going to continue with this topic and posting it in the American forum. Its a pretty big topic)

[BDL]

The Japanese didn't concentrate on building big heavy tanks because they knew the majority of the terrain they would be fighting over would be unsuitable - the jungles of south east Pacific, Chinese paddy fields, island hopping. Because of that, any tanks they used had to be small and very light - a T-34 or a Sherman would have been useless in a good 75% of the places that the Japanese army fought in, whereas their light tanks could fight in far more places and give light armoured support against troops with virtually no anti tank support (if tanks can't fight there, why bother with anti tank defence there?).

[Natxo]

I have read that japanese officers bought in Germany one Panther, but as it was impossible to ship the tank to Japan, it fought in a german unit and never reached Japan.

[Walther]

Why Japan didn´t win in China? Very simple, with their oppresive politics, treating the Chinese as subhumans, they brought the population up against them. Then China is a huge country, even at the largest expansion of the Japanese empire did they only control a strip along the coast and Manchuria, but never the whole country. Especially Mao Ze Dong had his units fight a guerilla war against the Japanese mostly in the north of China, with the classic hit and run tactics, mostly against Japanese lines of communication and supply. Compare the mechanised Japanese Army in China with the American Army in Vietnam. Then the Japanese had to leave a sizable portion of their troops on the border to Russia. They tried several times in the mid 30s to invade Siberia, but got beaten back every time by the Red Army. Chiang Kai-Shek of the Kuomintang more or less did what gave him the biggest profit and often played one side against the other in his area, which was mostly in southern China.
The Pacific adventure was only started by the Japanese after their China adventure failed. The target for Japan´s industry was the raw material rich northern part of China, with supplies of coal and ores. This was why the expansion was propagated since the late 1920s by a military-industrial complex of mostly the army and the owners of the huge industrial conglomerates (the Japanese Navy was always more open to the world and not as chauvinistic as the Army. Tojo, the military dictator of Japan was an Army man).
In 1940, the Japanese were effectively stuck in China, but couldn´t withdraw without loosing face big time, and at the same time their greatest suppliers of oil, scrap steel and rubber (USA and Britain) decided to place a trade embargo over Japan because of the inhumane treatment of the Chinese.
Especially the highly mechanised Japanese Navy ran out of supplies and fuel, so the decision was made to conquer the Shell oilfields in the former Dutch East Indies (Indonesia) and at the same time the Malayan peninsula for it´s rubber plantations. The problem was that the Philippines, at this time an American colony, were straddlng the Japanese supply lines and the Americans could easily cut them off. So a decision was made to destroy the American pacific fleet, which at this time was based in Pearl Harbour. History tellls us that this attempt failed.

Jan

[IronFist]

Japan didn't really need a modern battle tank if you think about it. Most of their conquestes were againest third world nations with really no enemy modern armies standing in their way. Plus most of their fighting was done in the air and in the sea. And any fighting they did on land was in the jungle or in locations unfit to have many tanks. They preferred guriella tactics and it seemed to work for them. Also their navy was not designed to carry all these "modern tanks" they would be battling with.

[Firefly]

Japan didn't really need a modern battle tank if you think about it. Most of their conquestes were againest third world nations with really no enemy modern armies standing in their way. Plus most of their fighting was done in the air and in the sea. And any fighting they did on land was in the jungle or in locations unfit to have many tanks. They preferred guriella tactics and it seemed to work for them. Also their navy was not designed to carry all these "modern tanks" they would be battling with.

A big misconception is always thinking that the Japanese fought only in Jungles and Islands, when in reality the majority of the japanese Army was fighting in China right up until the end of the War:

Here is a small Wiki link for background reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War

[student-scaley]

I think also like the German army the Japanese and Chinese forces still relied on horses a lot

The National Revolutionary Army possessed 80 Army infantry divisions with approximately 8,000 men each, nine independent brigades, nine cavalry divisions, two artillery brigades, 16 artillery regiments and one or two armored divisions. The Chinese Navy displaced only 59,000 tonnes and the Chinese Air Force comprised only 600 aircraft.



the Japanese Army comprised 17 divisions, each composed of approximately 22,000 men, 5,800 horses,

[Firefly]

Horses though arent always a bad thing either, you cant eat your jeep if your cut-off behind enemy lines, but old Dobbin will fry up a treat!

[temujin77]

Japan was kicking the combined Chinese and American butts all over China proper, but they could not conquer the country because it was too damned big. They carried on successful political maneuvers (eg. with Manchuria and with Wang Jinwei) and even more successful military campaigns (eg. Operation Ichigo), but China was just too big for them to conquer. Every province they conquer meant they need even more men to keep behind as occupation forces, and they weren't getting the reinforcements they needed because of the increasing demand for men on the outstretched Pacific frontier.

[Twitch1]

The Japanese didn't need armor to overwhelm the Chinese since they had no counterpart to combat! The Japanese tanks were suited for their purposes. A goodly part of he empire covered terrain that was unsuited for heavy tanks. Light armored vehicles simply supported the infantry as needed and were never strategically or even tactically implemented in battle plans as a key element to success.

I'm uncertain why anyone says Japan didn't "beat" China. In effect they did. After eradicating tens of millions of the peoples of China and Southeast Asia and occupying it since 1931 I can't figure how the Chinese won against the Japs.



Editted by F-F - reason non site approved use of Japanese.

[temujin77]

I'm uncertain why anyone says Japan didn't "beat" China. In effect they did. After eradicating tens of millions of the peoples of China and Southeast Asia and occupying it since 1931 I can't figure how the Chinese won against the Japs.

The Japanese did NOT beat China because:

1. Chungking stood as the war time Chinese capital to the day Hirohito announced his intent to surrender to the Allies.
2. The Japanese troops were fighting organized Chinese military units until Japanese surrendered.
3. Japanese troops in China surrendered to Chinese troops after Hirohito announced his intent to surrender.

Therefore, China won the war against the Japanese. Granted China needed every ounce of support the Allies could spare in order to win the war, nevertheless, she won the war against the Japanese.

I'm not sure why it is actually a controversy of any sort to you :P

[student-scaley]

The Japs didn't need armor to overwhelm the Chinese since they had no counterpart to combat! The Japaese tanks were suited for their purposes. A goodly part of he empire covered terrain that was unsuited for heavy tanks. Light armored vehicles simply supported the infantry as needed and were never strategically or even tactically implemented in battle plans as a key element to success.

I'm uncertain why anyone says Japan didn't "beat" China. In effect they did. After eradicating tens of millions of the peoples of China and Southeast Asia and occupying it since 1931 I can't figure how the Chinese won against the Japs.

I thought we'd agreed that 'Japs' wasn't to be used?

[Cuts]

I thought we'd agreed that 'Japs' wasn't to be used?

I suppose Wogs is right out then ?
:wink:

[student-scaley]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Firefly]

I'm uncertain why anyone says Japan didn't "beat" China. In effect they did. After eradicating tens of millions of the peoples of China and Southeast Asia and occupying it since 1931 I can't figure how the Chinese won against the Japs.

The Japanese did NOT beat China because:

1. Chungking stood as the war time Chinese capital to the day Hirohito announced his intent to surrender to the Allies.
2. The Japanese troops were fighting organized Chinese military units until Japanese surrendered.
3. Japanese troops in China surrendered to Chinese troops after Hirohito announced his intent to surrender.

Therefore, China won the war against the Japanese. Granted China needed every ounce of support the Allies could spare in order to win the war, nevertheless, she won the war against the Japanese.

I'm not sure why it is actually a controversy of any sort to you :P

I'd like your thoughts TJN on whether you think the fact that the Communist Chinese never fully committed to fight the Japanese in conventional style battles and warafare contributed to the communist revolution in China later on? Were the nationalists all fought out by 1948? Or was support for them limited anyway? I know I could Google, but value your opinion on it?

[Twitch1]

What the hell is wrong with using a contrated word for Japanese when we consistantly and without offense use Brit, Slav, Aussie, Ami (the Germans called us that), Pole, Dane, Kiwi, Canuck, Saudi, Itals= eye-tal for Italians, or Charlie derived from the military phonetic alaphebet as VC Victor Charlie for Viet Cong? Does ridiculous politically corrrectness follow us everywhere? The Nipponese soldier was not short he was height challenged, right?

[Firefly]

I think it goes something like, if they dont refer to themselves as it, dont use it on them.

[Twitch1]

We can say that Japan didn't "beat" China due to the fact that Nipponese troops didn't occupy the capital and every province but for all intent and purpose I sure wouldn't call the Chinese "winners" simply because they were able to outlast the Japanese Army's killing machine because of sheer numbers of inhabitants. :shock:

[Firefly]

Its a bit like Korea though, numbers have their own quality sometimes. The UN Army outclassed the Chinese Army there, but still didnt win the war. I agree that militarily the Chinese were outclassed, but the Chinese had a persistence that the Japanese just couldnt match.

[Twitch1]

Yeah kinda like the Russian attitude of "let's thow human flesh at them till they get tired of killing us." Sad state of things when a huge population is an asset that a government chooses to sacrifice as a defensive weapon.

[IronFist]

Captain, I was not stereotyping the japanese as fighting in the jugles o r rainforests. But i stick to my point the Japanese army was an infantry army and they planned on remaining as that. They never really showed any interest in tanks of any kind.

[Lemuel]

What the hell is wrong with using a contrated word for Japanese when we consistantly and without offense use Brit, Slav, Aussie, Ami (the Germans called us that), Pole, Dane, Kiwi, Canuck, Saudi, Itals= eye-tal for Italians, or Charlie derived from the military phonetic alaphebet as VC Victor Charlie for Viet Cong? Does ridiculous politically corrrectness follow us everywhere? The Nipponese soldier was not short he was height challenged, right?

I have to agree, what is offensive about the word "J***" anyway? I can't see how it could possibly be derogatory. If we all have to follow this absurd political correctness we will one day be calling World War Two the "Second International Dispute" If anyone can give me one GOOD reason why the word J*** is offensive then I'll stop using it

back on topic - I agree with Timujin, I think the main reason the J*** struggled to conquer all of China is its sheer size. With my limited knowledge of the Chinese Civil War/Communist Revolution the size of the country was a major issue then as well. Instead of standing to face any invanders, defenders could retreat virtually forever into the large expanse of land. Add the fact that in the late 1930s/early 40s that the road system into the interior of China left a lot to be desired, supplies and armour would've been difficult to move around the country.


Editted by F-F.

[Firefly]

Sorry Lemuel and Twitch1. As long as we have forum rules I would request that everyone abide by them, if you dont like it please feel free to contact any Admin.

Until then our instructions remain to edit the post.

Cheers

[FW-190 Pilot]

yes, just say it in site feedback if you dont like the rules.
but please just follow the rules we set up, then we are all cool 8)

[Charles]

I agree with the rule, because you don't know when people use it ina despective way or normal way.
An anecdote on this happened to me in school(im in an american school) and my teacher, said "j***" :shock: Normal to her but in a history class :shock: Well but this teacher was the same teacher who didn't know what was Omaha being a history teacher :?


Editted by F-F

[Firefly]

Aaarghhhhhh.....

Guys, the rules are there stop saying it.


This is beginning to sound like the Life of Brian

Stop saying Jehova! http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/brian/brian-04.htm

[Landstorm]

Tank is not the reason. Because the majority of the Chinese troops don't have tanks!!! Half of the troops don't even have rifles. They fought the japanese with only blades and spears!!!

The reason why japanese can't conqure China is the same withe the Germans in Russia. China is vast with a huge population i.e. lots of underground resistence. Think about it a small island like japan couldn't have enough population i.e. troops to guard all their conquered terroteries in China.

[Firefly]

In fact werent there more Chinese troops fighting for Japan than there were Japanese?

[Landstorm]

That is quite true, if you count all the regular troops and gueriilas

[PLT.SGT.BAKER]

If u look at pics of jap tanks they look really weak, of course they cant conquer china with those tanks(if they did conquer china would i be speaking japanese instead of chinese?)

[FW-190 Pilot]

If u look at pics of jap tanks they look really weak, of course they cant conquer china with those tanks(if they did conquer china would i be speaking japanese instead of chinese?)
so are you from mainland china or hk?

[PLT.SGT.BAKER]

And china did a a huge pop. japan cant take over with its size china but it is almost impossible to control china population is the key :wink:

[PLT.SGT.BAKER]

actually im half chinese half american i was born in chicago but all my dad and mom were born in china.

[FW-190 Pilot]

actually im half chinese half american i was born in chicago but all my dad and mom were born in china.
ic

[zstar]

Tank is not the reason. Because the majority of the Chinese troops don't have tanks!!! Half of the troops don't even have rifles. They fought the japanese with only blades and spears!!!

The reason why japanese can't conqure China is the same withe the Germans in Russia. China is vast with a huge population i.e. lots of underground resistence. Think about it a small island like japan couldn't have enough population i.e. troops to guard all their conquered terroteries in China.

No offense but that's totally untrue.

Yes China was poorly equipped but saying that the entire Chinese army fought Japan with spears and blades is silly. Chinese weren't that stupid and desparate.

BTW i would hardly call Japan a "small island", They had one of the biggest populations in the world.

I think it's best you read up on these things.