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Uncle J
02-25-2016, 09:00 PM
An article from The Guardian : http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_145645147996614&key=0da3f17dd3d3d8e710fb25246bc6e80c&libId=il33fehv010004ox000DAabfeiozb&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fhistorum.com%2Feuropean-history%2F96209-poles-killed-more-jews-than-germans-during-war.html&v=1&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fworld%2F201 5%2Foct%2F16%2Fpoland-anger-over-claim-that-poles-killed-more-jews-than-germans-during-war&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fhistorum.com%2Fsearch.php%3Fsearc hid%3D4312667&title=Poles%20killed%20more%20Jews%20than%20German s%20during%20war%20%3F%20-%20Historum%20-%20History%20Forums&txt=Poland%20may%20sue%20over%20claim%20Poles%20ki lled%20more%20Jews%20than%20Germans%20during%20war %20%7C%20World%20news%20%7C%20The%20Guardian

Polish prosecutors opened a libel probe against a US historian after he claimed Poles killed more Jews than Germans during the second world war.

“The Poles, for example, were indeed rightfully proud of their society’s resistance against the Nazis, but in fact did kill more Jews than Germans during the war,” wrote the 68-year-old Jewish historian.

Any thoughts?

It seems the real role of some nations in the WW2 is slightly different from the generally accepted clichés.

Kovalski
02-26-2016, 05:31 AM
Well, yes, I have a thought. He's an idiot.

He's not having a good time right now, apparently because the idea of blaming Poles for all the evil is not selling well. He used to be a polish government's favourite historian, allways in a spotlight, but since the change of power the flood of money ended and he seems to be more and more frustrated. Widely criticised by other historians, accused of making up stories, he's trying to get some attention. And obviously, he's getting some abroad, as Westeners are willing to believe some even the most absurd theories. Hollywood kind of historian. No need to waste more time on him.

JR*
02-26-2016, 05:42 AM
I have read the "Guardian" article, but have not yet accessed the Professor Gross (Grosz) article. The assertion related in Uncle J's post is, at first reading, perplexing, and a full reading of the "Guardian" article does little to dispel this perplexity. Could the whole business be based on a misquote by the paper, and a consequent misunderstanding on the part of the Polish authorities ?

I refer particularly to a comment on the article left by a "Guardian" reader -

"James Wald

October 18, 2015
2:27 am

Your report is solid enough, but the first sentence is ambiguous or misleading.

Grosz’s work is both important and controversial, and that is why language and grammatical precision are so important when complex scholarly issues are simplified in brief journalistic reports intended for a general public.

Your second sentence/paragraph should resolve this ambiguity, but just to be clear: Grosz did not say that Poles killed more Jews than the Germans killed. That would be patently ridiculous: there is no disputing that the Germans were primarily responsible for destroying some 90% of Polish Jewry. Among other things, this is why both the State of Israel and US Jewish organizations supported the Polish objection to casual references to “Polish” death camps (even if only as a geographical descriptor) and supported the Polish request to have UNESCO officially call Auschwitz the “former Nazi German concentration camp Auschwitz-Birkenau”so as to remove any possible ambiguity.

Rather, Grosz claims: Poles killed more Jews than they killed Germans in the course of the hostilities between 1939 and 1945. That is a serious charge, and therefore one that demands the most precise and scrupulous journalistic coverage, lest an already controversial issue become distorted by otherwise utterly avoidable misunderstanding."

This makes sense. Poland in 1939 had a Jewish population numbering in millions, and a long previous history of anti-Semitism. This anti-Semitism seems mainly to have been based on "religious hatred", of the sort espoused historically in Germany by the likes of Martin Luther, but substantially different from the "racially" based, eugenics-fuelled anti-Semitism of the Nazis. In the initial period of their occupation of western Poland, the Nazis appear to have been anxious to forward the elimination of Jews from a territory high on their priority for "Germanisation". This is shown by the activities of certain elements of the German invasion forces, of which the 1st SS Motorised Division, "Leibstandarte-SS Adolf Hitler" and of the SS Cavalry Brigade (attached to the nascent 3rd SS Motorised Division, "Totenkopf". However, they faced a huge problem which, initially, they lacked the resources to address. In fact there were two huge problems - that of dealing with Jews in large and medium-sized urban areas, and the different problem of dealing with the widely-distributed Jewish population in rural areas, often living in all-Jewish segregated villages.

There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that anti-Jewish pogroms were conducted by Polish civilians, especially in the 1939-'40 period. It was standard practice of SS and Police Leaders in newly-occupied areas to take advantage of local adverse sentiment against Jewish neighbours in this way. However, it is virtually impossible to estimate the number of Jews killed in these local pogroms with any accuracy at all. A fair guess, however, would be that the numbers were considerable. By 1941, the position had changed substantially. By now, the SS and Police Leaders had full, effective control of the Polish Police, along with substantial numbers of armed German Policemen in Special Police/Reserve Police Battalions, along with a number of SD Security Police. They were now well capable of organizing a systematic massacre of rural Polish Jews themselves in which, of course Polish Police played a part, but within which the German Police and SS played the leading role. Again, the nature of this massacre made the numbers involved very hazy, and the allocation of particular numbers of killings to Polish Police quite unrealistic. The great massacre of urban Jews through the mechanism of ghettos and death camps was, on all evidence, a German "adventure".

The question of how many Germans were "killed by Poles" during the occupation is also fraught with difficulties. It is quite clear that the numbers killed by the Polish Resistance was relatively small; it could not be otherwise, given the crushing weight of German occupation in Poland. It is quite possible that this number was fewer than numbers of Jews killed in early-war rural pogroms. But, again, numbers are hazy, even before the contribution made to killing Germans by the western and eastern (pro-Soviet) Polish forces with the Allied armies; again, such numbers cannot reasonably be attributed within the overall "kill" of the Allied armies.

Given the cultural and political sensitivity of the matter, Professor Grosz's views are bound to remain so. This is not least because of the statistical fog into which one goes when trying to verify even the more modest assertions made by Grosz, as compared with the apparently unreliable second-hand report published by the "Guardian". No doubt a great deal of heat, and little light, will be generated by this "controversy". In any event, I am not sure how one could reasonably ground any defamation action against the good Professor. Best regards, JR.

Rising Sun*
02-26-2016, 06:40 AM
I have read the "Guardian" article, but have not yet accessed the Professor Gross (Grosz) article. The assertion related in Uncle J's post is, at first reading, perplexing, and a full reading of the "Guardian" article does little to dispel this perplexity. Could the whole business be based on a misquote by the paper, and a consequent misunderstanding on the part of the Polish authorities ?

I refer particularly to a comment on the article left by a "Guardian" reader -

"James Wald

October 18, 2015
2:27 am

.....

There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that anti-Jewish pogroms were conducted by Polish civilians, especially in the 1939-'40 period. It was standard practice of SS and Police Leaders in newly-occupied areas to take advantage of local adverse sentiment against Jewish neighbours in this way. However, it is virtually impossible to estimate the number of Jews killed in these local pogroms with any accuracy at all. A fair guess, however, would be that the numbers were considerable. By 1941, the position had changed substantially. By now, the SS and Police Leaders had full, effective control of the Polish Police, along with substantial numbers of armed German Policemen in Special Police/Reserve Police Battalions, along with a number of SD Security Police. They were now well capable of organizing a systematic massacre of rural Polish Jews themselves in which, of course Polish Police played a part, but within which the German Police and SS played the leading role. Again, the nature of this massacre made the numbers involved very hazy, and the allocation of particular numbers of killings to Polish Police quite unrealistic. The great massacre of urban Jews through the mechanism of ghettos and death camps was, on all evidence, a German "adventure".

That is perhaps even less than half the picture.

Hitler and Stalin carved Poland up so that for the period 1939-41 the Soviets controlled about half of Poland.

Given well established Soviet atrocities such as the Katyn Massacre and the reign of terror the Soviets exercised in Poland 1939-41, it is curious that Professor Grosz's assertions and James Wald's comment completely ignore, first, the extent to which Soviet conduct contributed to the deaths of Jews (and ethnic Poles and sundry others in Poland) and, second, the impossibility of roughly half the population of Poland in Soviet occupied areas being able to kill Germans.

Simplistic assertions such as "Poles killed more Jews than Germans in WWII" are utterly meaningless unless carefully analysed against the Soviet / Nazi division of Poland and then against the various non-Polish ethnic groups under German and Soviet occupation.

Anyway, how many opportunities were there for a defeated people to kill Germans after Poland was conquered?

If the higher ratio of Jews killed (and this requires careful definition to distinguish between murders by civilians and officialdom, whether local officialdom or in conjunction with Nazi or Soviet officialdom) by citizens of a nation defeated by Germany in WWII to the number of Germans killed by the defeated nationals following defeat is the yardstick, I'd take a punt that France, among others, would be subject to the same allegation.

JR*
02-26-2016, 06:59 AM
Good points, RS*. I had thought of going into the Soviet "contribution" - but I would have been going on forever. Perhaps this explains the particular focus of James Wald, who was commenting on the alleged misrepresentation of the good Professor's text, which in turn referred specifically to the German/Polish position. Overall, even with the close analysis you suggest (and I agree in principle with your suggestion) the dearth of reliable statistics would still bedevil any such analysis. There was, anecdotally, considerable "conflict" between Poles and Jews in "Galicia" following the German invasion of 1941 often, at least directly, having little to do with the Germans, but caused by hostility between Polish/Ukrainian and Jewish partisan groups acting largely on their own initiative. This business draws in even questions such as who was a "Pole". Not sure whether I agree with Wald's assertion that Grosz is making a "serious charge", implicitly capable of a coherent answer. Looks to me more like an historical "dead end". In the absence of meaningful evidence, the composition of History is not possible - beyond the point at which the question can be seriously analyzed evidentially. Very best regards, JR.

imi
02-26-2016, 08:03 AM
I just heard an interesting version that Jewish workers were so poor conditions because the Allies cut off the supply routes both east and west
The Jews always referred to as a death camp in concentration camps, however, it is certainly not true if you wanted to Hitler in 1933 had wiped out all the Jews in one year
The concentration camps were labor camps not killings camps

Nickdfresh
02-26-2016, 02:23 PM
I have read the "Guardian" article, but have not yet accessed the Professor Gross (Grosz) article. The assertion related in Uncle J's post is, at first reading, perplexing, and a full reading of the "Guardian" article does little to dispel this perplexity. Could the whole business be based on a misquote by the paper, and a consequent misunderstanding on the part of the Polish authorities ?

...

Yeah, I'm trying to figure out the logic or numbers. A massacre of 1,500 Jews is mentioned, but hardly a heavy day, for say, the Einsatzgruppen...

Nickdfresh
02-26-2016, 02:41 PM
I just heard an interesting version that Jewish workers were so poor conditions because the Allies cut off the supply routes both east and west
The Jews always referred to as a death camp in concentration camps, however, it is certainly not true if you wanted to Hitler in 1933 had wiped out all the Jews in one year
The concentration camps were labor camps not killings camps

There were both labor AND killing camps. Those unfit for labor (women and children, old men, etc.) were sent to the murder showers almost immediately.

But more specifically, why bother with "labor camps" at all? Many skilled Jews were sent to factories to be essentially worked-to-death. But it turned out that there was a paradox - when one tries to work someone to death by starving them and trying to maximize their productivity, neither can be effectively accomplished as the workers would often just pass out from exhaustion making them useless (if not worse than useless) forcing the Nazis to feed them at least a minimum starvation diet. But this diet drew away from other paid workers, even German ones, so the slave labor ethos can actually be more expensive than paid labor to an extent. Because they have unproductive, starving and weak slave laborers as well as overworked German workers whose productivity and moral declined with their rations being cut and having to witness the brutality of their regime.....

Rising Sun*
02-27-2016, 05:21 AM
I just heard an interesting version that Jewish workers were so poor conditions because the Allies cut off the supply routes both east and west

This opinion doesn't survive the most basic analysis by anyone even moderately informed on relevant history.

1. Consistent with the stated “version” as an apparent and farcical attempt to shift guilt from the Nazis to the Allies, the term “Jewish workers” seems like an intentionally deceptive term to avoid the reality that Jews and others were people arbitrarily imprisoned and killed in pursuit of Nazi racial and other nasty policies. Calling Jewish prisoners in Nazi (as distinct from German, as the camps weren’t part of the German state apparatus) labour camps “Jewish workers” is as absurd and as repugnant as calling Jews gassed when they got off the train at the death camps “Jewish death volunteers”.

2. Depending upon how one wants to split hairs, the first version of "the Allies" (principally France, Poland, Belgium, British Commonwealth) ceased to exist with the surrender of France in mid-1940.

3. After that the only belligerent fighting Germany was the British Commonwealth, which was not allied with any other nation. It had no ability to control supply routes to labour or death camps from any point of the compass in continental Europe.

4. After the fall of Poland in September 1939, the only nation which controlled supply routes from the west was Germany and from the east the USSR.

5. This did not change until Barbarossa in mid-1941 when the Soviets were driven out of eastern Poland and replaced by the Germans, who then controlled all supply routes into Poland, which is where some of the worst Nazi labour and death camps were located.

6.The USSR switched sides and ultimately became a major Ally with China, the British Commonwealth, and the USA after Pearl Harbor in December 1941 and the subsequent German and Italian declarations of war on the USA brought the USA into the European war.

7. The post-Pearl Harbor Allies were not in a position to control any supply routes to Nazi labour and death camps until the Soviets re-entered Poland in 1944 and could influence supplies from the east, except for the obvious fact that the Soviets were not running supply lines to the Germans from anywhere.

8. The English speaking Allies were not in a position to do anything about western supply routes to Nazi labour and death camps until they took the camps very late in the war, when they supplied them generously with food, sanitation, medical care, clothing and everything else denied the prisoners by the Nazis.

9. The Nazis were still transporting prisoners to Auschwitz late in 1944, and no doubt to some of their other camps around the same time. For example, the last major train transportation of Jews from the Netherlands to Auschwitz was in September 1944.

10. As the Nazis could still transport Jews the vast distance from the Netherlands to Poland late in 1944 when they were on the ropes on the eastern and western fronts, clearly they still controlled the supply routes to the labour and death camps and could send what they wanted to those camps.

11. The only reason the Nazis didn’t send food and other requirements for reasonable life of prisoners to the labour and death camps was because they knew that the Jews and others they sent there were to be worked to death or killed on or shortly after arrival.

Whoever expressed the opinion you quoted is either a spectacularly ill-informed idiot or, more likely, a Nazi apologist or revisionist (which doesn’t preclude it being the opinion of a spectacularly ill-informed idiot).

Uncle J
02-27-2016, 07:47 AM
Well,it was interesting to know some new things,for example,that it is Soviet's fault that Polles killed Jewes during the German occupation - very original inference,indeed!

Another interesting inference is that this US historian is an idiot because he said something negative about Poles.

But the problem is that the "idiot" is not alone.A quote from the book by Norman Davies, "Rising '44: The Battle for Warsaw" :


Ignatius B, a director of Phillips in Lodz, his wife Esther, eleven-year-old daughter Noemi, his sister, and her daughter hid with others in the few weeks before the [Rising] in a bunker at 4 Straight Street. In the third or fourth week of the Uprising a few insurgents came into the bunker and ordered the six men there to accompany them to Headquarters. They led them only as far as the gateway and the insurgents' lieutenant told them, "Gentlemen, you are Jews, waiting for the Bolsheviks. The Bolsheviks will come but you will not see them", and he gave his people the order to shoot all six of them. The bodies were thrown into a shallow grave, hollowed out by a missile close to the house. Then they went into the bunker and shot the remaining women on the spot.

Abram, brother of the murdered Ignatius, usually stayed with the family in the bunker, but by chance had got out. When he went down into the cellar and heard murmuring, he retreated and hid. He reported a blow-by-blow account of the events, but then discovered that insurgents from the Valiant Group had carried out the murders.

And one more quote from "Interrogation record of “Oleg”, front headquarter reconnaissanceman, which was released on the night of 02.10.1944 in the central district of Warsaw" ( Ivan Andreevich Kolos (codename: "Oleg") on September 19, 1944 had received instructions from the Command and jumped with a parachute and landed in the center of Warsaw under fire, where he established contact with the command of the Polish insurgents.) :


"...Reactionary elements, and especially fighting underground organization AK, the so-called PKB, conducted pronounced nationalist policies.All Ukrainian population, remaining in the city were massacred or shot. PKB forces also destroyed the remaining Jews who have not been destroyed by the Germans..."

Source : (Военно-Исторический журнал, № 4, 1993)

On September 15, 1943 the new commander of the AK General T. Komorowski gave the order № 116 where in fact he ordered to act against Jewish guerrilla units.


"...In certain areas the AK posed a greater threat to Jewish partisans than the Nazis..."

http://global.britannica.com/topic/Jewish-partisan

That's the way it goes.

In view of the above the one must admit that there is no different between German nazis and Polish nationalist AK ,they are both Nazis,both fascists.

Nickdfresh
02-27-2016, 08:41 AM
...

In view of the above the one must admit that there is no different between German nazis and Polish nationalist AK ,they are both Nazis,both fascists.

Um...

Really?

We could just as easily say there is no difference between Nazism and Stalinism, since both were ruthless ideologies that murdered political rivals and caused untold misery on the scale of millions. And that both have apologists with fanboi agenda posting to this day...

Such a statement is completely ill thought out and not supported by any actual evidence and seems rather tainted by current political musings.

Consider this a warning my friend, and a very mild informal one. But a warning from a Mod nevertheless. Bizarre apologia and unsourced, blanket statements are not really tolerated here...

And BTW, your selectively quoted sophistry does not count as a 'source'...

imi
02-27-2016, 12:04 PM
There were both labor AND killing camps. Those unfit for labor (women and children, old men, etc.) were sent to the murder showers almost immediately.

But more specifically, why bother with "labor camps" at all? Many skilled Jews were sent to factories to be essentially worked-to-death. But it turned out that there was a paradox - when one tries to work someone to death by starving them and trying to maximize their productivity, neither can be effectively accomplished as the workers would often just pass out from exhaustion making them useless (if not worse than useless) forcing the Nazis to feed them at least a minimum starvation diet.

a) If Hitler want to kill all the Jews, he made est about under one year
b) Cutting the supply lines theory is beliavable for me
c) I know Jews who are childrens in 1944, deported to concentration camps and survive the camp

Uncle J
02-27-2016, 07:24 PM
We could just as easily say there is no difference between Nazism and Stalinism


ie there is no difference between communism and anti-communism - what a flight of thought,indeed!And of course this great idea is supported by actual evidence and absolutely not tainted by current political musings. " Bizarre apologia and unsourced, blanket statements are not really tolerated here..." ...yes,I see...

Thank you for a warning,sir, but there is no need in it, I'm leaving your half dead forum

tankgeezer
02-28-2016, 01:26 AM
ie there is no difference between communism and anti-communism - what a flight of thought,indeed!And of course this great idea is supported by actual evidence and absolutely not tainted by current political musings. " Bizarre apologia and unsourced, blanket statements are not really tolerated here..." ...yes,I see...

Thank you for a warning,sir, but there is no need in it, I'm leaving your half dead forum
.....

Rising Sun*
02-28-2016, 05:24 AM
Well,it was interesting to know some new things,for example,that it is Soviet's fault that Polles killed Jewes during the German occupation - very original inference,indeed!

Another interesting inference is that this US historian is an idiot because he said something negative about Poles.

I don't recall anyone saying that it was the USSR's fault that Poles killed Jews, during the German occupation or otherwise, nor do I recall anyone saying that Grosz was an idiot.

Pity you've left the forum as I'd have liked you to point to the posts which support your statements.

Nickdfresh
02-28-2016, 10:01 AM
a) If Hitler want to kill all the Jews, he made est about under one year
b) Cutting the supply lines theory is beliavable for me
c) I know Jews who are childrens in 1944, deported to concentration camps and survive the camp

I'm throwing a bit of a warning to you too, imi. I know overall you're a good contributor, and you are entitled to your opinion. But Holocaust Denial is taken seriously in these parts!

How would you explain the six million Jews that are missing? Hitler and the Third Reich were not omnipotent and only catagorically decided on "The Final Solution" upon the entry of the United States into the war in early 1942. They couldn't have just put the entire war aside to kill millions in "one year." You obviously need to read a bit more - I suggest Adam Tooze's The Wages of Destruction which gives a good account of the limitations of the Nazi economy...

Nickdfresh
02-28-2016, 10:04 AM
ie there is no difference between communism and anti-communism - what a flight of thought,indeed!

I'm guessing you're not an emeritus of political science at Stockholm University. But there are vastly different strains of communism as well as anti-communism....


And of course this great idea is supported by actual evidence and absolutely not tainted by current political musings. " Bizarre apologia and unsourced, blanket statements are not really tolerated here..." ...yes,I see...

Thank you for a warning,sir, but there is no need in it, I'm leaving your half dead forum

Well, hopefully the door won't hit your *** on the way out!

Nickdfresh
02-28-2016, 10:07 AM
And just so you know Uncle J, we've had our share of Polish Nationalist trolls we've dealt with as well. So no one here is a Nationalist Pole-sycophant...

JR*
02-29-2016, 06:31 AM
This term "camps" is rather confused. The earliest Nazi detention camps - followed quickly by their more ordered successor, the "concentration camps", were essentially detention facilities for "unconventional" prisoners. These "unconventional" prisoners were for the most part social or political enemies (or presumed enemies) of the Nazi Party - Communists, Social Democrats, dissident Monarchists/Reactionaries and so on. Jews seem to have featured low on the concentration camp rosters; they, however, were quickly subjected to a range of oppressive measures in the fields of economic, employment and social life. Some early camps were involved in forced labour activities. This began to change as the Germans expanded eastward, in particular, into Poland. The requirements of war produced a greater emphasis on forced labour while, at the same time, the overall profile of "camps" became more complicated. Several concentration camps in Germany remained, primarily, political prisons, typically, with ancillary labour added (Dachau, to take a prominent example, always remained primarily a prison). Elsewhere, the position is less straightforward. As emphasis on the physical extermination of political and cultural enemies, and of the Jews, labour camps were joined by camps involved in forced labour with greater or lesser elements of the extermination camp attached, camps for whom a prominent purpose was working people to death, and so-called "death camps" (actually dedicated killing factories minimally involved in economic work, except at the most basic level. The extremes were shown by the nightmarish situation in unfortunate Lublin between 1941 and 1943, where SS and Police Leader Odilo Globocknik presided over a network of labour camps (from which he embezzled much of the profits) along with the "Aktion Reinhard" death factories, which were minimally involved in economic activities or detention, being designed simply for killing as many Jews as possible in the shortest possible time. The mixed system of labour camps, death/labour camps and death-through-overwork camps (with numerous variations) persisted in Poland to the end of the war in Poland.

Regarding the economics of employing slave labour - the classic (indeed "classical") model of absolute slavery in Europe had been chattel slavery. This meant that the master had full ownership of his or her slaves, and full disposal of their labour. A system like this could work effectively in circumstances where the entire economic system, at its base, was built around the availability of large numbers of slaves - as, for example, in the late Roman Republic, the early Roman Principate, the "classical" Greek states, ancient Persia, and so on. It works less well in more mixed economic systems and, it seems to me, particularly badly in the circumstances obtaining in the Nazi empire. The creation of a partial "slave economy" in the Nazi system involved the removal of large number of potentially productive workers from the "normal" economy and placing them in sub-optimal production activities in camps in which they were underfed, overworked and, usually, slated for "elimination" at some point at which their utility to this oppressive system seemed to have expired. It is worth remembering that, while the situation differed from true chattel slavery insofar as the "slaves" were not literally owned by another human being or corporation, the Nazi state - which had full control over the activities of its captives - could "lease" its captives to private corporations for employment in their enterprises. This was a common model for the employment of captives at least in the more "orderly" labour and concentration camps, notably in the joint labour/extermination camps at Auschwitz-Birkenau. It was the equivalent of a Roman slave-owner having the ability to sell his or her slaves. Nonetheless, there seems to me little doubt that, from a purely economic viewpoint, the disruption caused by the unproductive displacement of labour into the forced labour system caused such inefficiencies that a more indirect method of exploiting the work of these people would have been preferable. Enough for now ... JR.

Rising Sun*
02-29-2016, 06:46 AM
And just so you know Uncle J, we've had our share of Polish Nationalist trolls we've dealt with as well. So no one here is a Nationalist Pole-sycophant...

Well, there is an established tradition of nationalists of all sorts making fools of themselves by getting things wrong due to their woeful ignorance of history and blinkered obsession with their view of their nation.

It'd be hard to go past this piece of fairly recent "shooting oneself in one's foot" by British Nationalists opposed to, among other things, Polish migration to Britain. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/4935429/BNP-uses-Polish-Spitfire-in-anti-immigration-poster.html

But for the Poles and their excellent skills as pilots, aircrew and ground crew, and their extreme fighter pilot aggression in the Battle of Britain, Britain might have done less well in defending itself from Germany in the Battle of Britain. That's not my armchair opinion, but the contemporary opinion of Air Chief Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding, head of RAF Fighter Command:
"Had it not been for the magnificent material contributed by the Polish squadrons and their unsurpassed gallantry, I hesitate to say that the outcome of the Battle would have been the same." http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/online-exhibitions/the-polish-air-force-in-world-war-2/303-squadron.aspx

http://info-poland.buffalo.edu/web/history/WWII/britain/link.shtml

http://www.polishsquadronsremembered.com/ Click on the squadron numbers top left for details of each squadron.

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/online-exhibitions/the-polish-air-force-in-world-war-2/polish-squadrons.aspx

The Polish pilots in Britain certainly went out of their way to kill Germans at a much higher rate than British pilots (and were noted for trying to kill German pilots rather than just bring down their planes as British pilots tended to do), which suggests that given opportunities in Poland many Poles would have been rather more focused on killing Germans than Jews.

Rising Sun*
02-29-2016, 07:17 AM
Regarding the economics of employing slave labour - the classic (indeed "classical") model of absolute slavery in Europe had been chattel slavery. This meant that the master had full ownership of his or her slaves, and full disposal of their labour. A system like this could work effectively in circumstances where the entire economic system, at its base, was built around the availability of large numbers of slaves - as, for example, in the late Roman Republic, the early Roman Principate, the "classical" Greek states, ancient Persia, and so on. It works less well in more mixed economic systems and, it seems to me, particularly badly in the circumstances obtaining in the Nazi empire. The creation of a partial "slave economy" in the Nazi system involved the removal of large number of potentially productive workers from the "normal" economy and placing them in sub-optimal production activities in camps in which they were underfed, overworked and, usually, slated for "elimination" at some point at which their utility to this oppressive system seemed to have expired. It is worth remembering that, while the situation differed from true chattel slavery insofar as the "slaves" were not literally owned by another human being or corporation, the Nazi state - which had full control over the activities of its captives - could "lease" its captives to private corporations for employment in their enterprises. This was a common model for the employment of captives at least in the more "orderly" labour and concentration camps, notably in the joint labour/extermination camps at Auschwitz-Birkenau. It was the equivalent of a Roman slave-owner having the ability to sell his or her slaves. Nonetheless, there seems to me little doubt that, from a purely economic viewpoint, the disruption caused by the unproductive displacement of labour into the forced labour system caused such inefficiencies that a more indirect method of exploiting the work of these people would have been preferable. Enough for now ... JR.

The essential difference between slave systems in recent centuries, and indeed those obtaining in some places outside Europe at the time of WWII and even nowadays, and the Nazi and Japanese versions is that in capitalist systems slaves were bought for a price and had a value to the master which encouraged preservation of the slave's life, albeit perhaps at little more than subsistence levels for meaner masters.

In the Nazi and Japanese systems the slaves were acquired at no cost to those empires. There was no economic disadvantage to those empires, apart from the subtle but important loss of intellectual capital in science, engineering, commerce, the arts and so on, in working them to death with the least burden on the empire in the way of food, clothing, accommodation, medical care etc. This agreed conveniently with the racial supremacist ideologies of those empires in their exploitation of other human beings.

Given the spectacular losses of their wars by the Germans and Japanese despite abundant slave labour (not to mention vast amounts of inanimate economic resources) acquired at no cost by their aggressive expansion, and allowing for the obvious fact that many other factors were in play, the unavoidable inference is that Germany and Japan ultimately were incapable of sustaining the wars they started even with the advantage of massive slave labour denied to the Allies (well, at least the Allies other than China and the USSR).

That, of course, is 20/20 hindsight.

At the start of its war in 1939, Germany wasn't committed to its internal political program of exterminating the Jews nor to setting up the massive death and labour camps which it set up in later years.

Perhaps if the Nazis, as distinct from Germany, had not bothered with the camps and the resources devoted to them but instead had harnessed the intellectual and commercial capital of those they sent to the camps, Germany would have been better placed to win its war.

Not unlike Stalin being better placed to resist Barbarossa if he hadn't exterminated a good part of his officer corps a few years earlier.

imi
03-01-2016, 05:13 AM
I do not deny that the Holocaust was just saying that a highly exaggerated version to show the Jews
I do not believe that six million Jews died, very likely to falsify the numbers of Jews and the Holocaust must always this listening this theme for the Jews when no one cares a constant maximum excessive hysteria
It of course is not the case that the highly-communist Jews after the war, what they did hundreds of German civilians was shot down for nothing (women and children) were shot and thousands of soldiers in the POW camps and Gulags
The Volkdeutches all around the eastern section was arrested and send to Siberia and the Jewish controlled communist took their houses and owned lands

German civilians execution (womans and childs)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZYx5mhOyTg

Dying shoot down Wermacht POW troops in Cheslovakia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7fs5Sb6Vms&ebc=ANyPxKqAOYR-2ZVqs0SfUXoTYKjs_ESrEHRNddIlLhuhD6T1C9r9YuO0OQqMER hpnJcjFXG5NM15jbj99fiibaWnGAkGosFbyg

The ex-communist Jewish terror is taking place today in here Europe, only quietly terminally ill. The Jews are doing so from people who do not like them (for example,get to radioactive uranium in the victim water to drink and the victim is die a few years "cancer in natural causes")

Rising Sun*
03-01-2016, 05:36 AM
The ex-communist Jewish terror is taking place today in here Europe, only quietly terminally ill. The Jews are doing so from people who do not like them (for example,get to radioactive uranium in the victim water to drink and the victim is die a few years "cancer in natural causes")

Such as this?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-19647226

JR*
03-01-2016, 06:59 AM
I always get a bit queasy when the shade of the "international Jewish-Communist conspiracy" is raised. Certainly, Jews were strongly represented among east European Communist parties long before the post-War II period. This is not surprising. Jews were disproportionately well represented in the minor intelligentsia that have always formed the main cadre of revolutionary leadership for as long as such a thing has existed. This does not mean that there was ever an "internationalist Jewish (controlled) Bolshevist conspiracy, as advanced, for example, by the Nazis. The coherent element was Bolshevism - not Jewishness.

Regarding Litvinenko and his appalling demise - it is difficult to dissent from the conclusion that this killing was engineered by the Russian security service, or that this was approved at the highest level in Russia, as enunciated by the recent British enquiry. Polonium 210 is not something one can buy in the local pharmacy. It is an isotope that only comes into existence in the heart of nuclear reactors, and is highly dangerous (to say the least) outside that environment. Despite Russian conspiracy theories, it is at least for me quite impossible to see what interest the UK could have had in assassinating Litvinenko by this extraordinary means, or indeed at all. The attack itself was an almost incredibly irresponsible action, not just against Litvinenko, but against the UK in general. The investigations of the City of London Police and the Greater London Police - which deserve great credit for their diligence - indicated that while attempting to lure Litvinenko into a fatal situation - the two Russian spooks were wandering around London with phials of Polonium 210, visiting clubs, football grounds and other locations. Did anyone in Moscow tell their spooks just how dangerous this stuff was ? It has also been suggested that, on concluding their mission, said spooks disposed of the surplus poison into a common storm drain - although the detection of traces on two aeroplanes at Heathrow may contract this. In the meantime, a number of individuals - including the pianist in the restaurant where the assassination occurred- while they may not have become ill, have been subject to extensive decontamination procedures, and remain subject to six-monthly health checks in case adverse effects occur. Really don't think any of this has much to do with Jews. A certain inhabitant of the Kremlin seems a much more likely suspect.

Frankly, in a rational world, HM Government should have broken off diplomatic relations as a result of this egregious, irresponsible hostile act on the part of Russia against a British citizen on British soil. As far as I can make out, even the expulsion of Russian intelligence officers at London's Russian Embassy has not occurred. We are ruled by wimps. Yours from the Lubyanka, JR.

imi
03-01-2016, 08:46 AM
Such as this?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-19647226

same method but they are able to "accidental" electrocution until the car "accident" and there have a lot of many ideas

Rising Sun*
03-01-2016, 09:00 AM
same method but they are able to accidental electrocution until the car accident

What if they don't have cars, or electricity?

imi
03-01-2016, 09:17 AM
What if they don't have cars, or electricity?

This is not a joke!
These israeli connected jew bastards kill innocents nobodys (and also their relatives sometimes) for get their valuables and the full procedure looks like seems quite natural
The Jews have many connection widely in the industrial business and also the upper business and political classes and the Goverments and the Secret Services
They can take care of everything: made a sick man infected by cancer or AIDS or made a car accident
Most victims do not even know that terminally ill or get killed in the future by accidentaly or get infected purpose with a lethal virus
And if somebody tell me I am a nazi: This is not nazism or anti semitism, this is the horrible real life unfortunately

Rising Sun*
03-01-2016, 09:44 AM
This is not a joke!
These israeli connected jew bastards kill innocents nobodys (and also their relatives sometimes) for get their valuables and the full procedure looks like seems quite natural
The Jews have many connection widely in the industrial business and also the upper business classes, they can take care of everything
Most victims do not even know that terminally ill or get killed in the future by accidentaly

Nick's warning wasn't a joke, either.

I don't care if you want to believe your anti-Jewish paranoid fantasies, but this forum isn't the place to do it.

I and other mods don't have a problem with reasoned and factually supported arguments against Israeli misconduct, and there has been plenty of it, or even some world wide Jewish conspiracy if that's your thing if you can support it with facts, but so far you're just making wild assertions which seem to reflect unreasoning hostility towards Jews.

The last time that happened on a large scale led to Auschwitz etc, so do yourself a favour and drop this theme.

Consider this a less gentle mod warning than Nick gave you.

JR*
03-01-2016, 09:48 AM
Er ... Certainly, the Israeli State has a record of kidnapping, assassinating and judicially murdering lots of people who proved inconvenient to it. This might be one reason for being anti-Zionist. However, I get very, very uneasy confronted by terms like "Israeli connected Jew bastards". Without (still) entirely understanding the point being made, it is simply not justifiable to blame all Jews for the arguably criminal activities of the Israeli state, even those who actively sympathize with the Israeli state and support it in a general way. And the business of spreading "plagues" (as distinct from shooting, stabbing, exploding, conventionally poisoning and so on) individuals on the part of some sort of "Jewish world conspiracy" seems far-fetched, to say the least ... JR.

imi
03-01-2016, 10:38 AM
I don't care if you want to believe your anti-Jewish paranoid fantasies, but this forum isn't the place to do it.

A little bit history from my life not "paranoid fantasies":
I am contact in 2003 until 2008 a russian jew born stylist in here Hungary.
He was working in the hungarian television and media and he also a insane cocain addict alcoholist in his private life and a egoist who look down everybody who have no got money or power.
One day he affront one of my letter and what was the next step?
We have new neighbors after a few weeks, two jew looking person: a short middle age jew looking man and a good looking younger jew looking woman
One day after I arrived home, the lock on the front door is wrecked a little bit, I could hardly open looks like someone is picking the lock. (before that day the lock was worked well all time)
After a few weeks I go a standard blood test and look what happened?
I am a Hepatitis C positive

The big question is:
How I became HCV positive?
a) when my ex then-girlfriend not slept with anyone only with me and we both was healthy
b) I have not been in a hospital setting that time
c) I do not have any injuries that time
d) I have did not meet with any doctor or patient that time
e) I have never any sexual sickness in my life

I tell the secret: the two new neighbors was Jew secret agent with lockpick and a Hepatitis C virus sample.
They wait when I leave my home and pick the lock and infect my food with HCV virus in my refrigerator when I am not at home
And what do you think who is behind it all?
My huffish russian jew stylist friend who thinks this is the right penalty for a anger?

Now I am HCV positive rest of my life thanks for the Jews, because they are not the Evils in this Earth, only constantly - all time dramatic Holocaust survivors - and the nation who must be sorry to everyone
The question is: we sorry the Holocaust but who sorry those victims the Jews killed or infected lethal viruses?
I drop the Jew theme now, but remember the reality is this in here, not what you see in the television and this is not nazism, not anti semitism, and not paranoid fantasy, these are the Jews if you like or not

imi
03-01-2016, 11:05 AM
This photo is for yours guys, the bravest baby in the 20th century
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/rJUbxZYYMRI/hqdefault.jpg

tankgeezer
03-01-2016, 11:29 AM
A little bit history from my life not "paranoid fantasies":
I am contact in 2003 until 2008 a russian jew born stylist in here Hungary.
He was working in the hungarian television and media and he also a insane cocain addict alcoholist in his private life and a egoist who look down everybody who have no got money or power.
One day he affront one of my letter and what was the next step?
We have new neighbors after a few weeks, two jew looking person: a short middle age jew looking man and a good looking younger jew looking woman
One day after I arrived home, the lock on the front door is wrecked a little bit, I could hardly open looks like someone is picking the lock. (before that day the lock was worked well all time)
After a few weeks I go a standard blood test and look what happened?
I am a Hepatitis C positive

The big question is:
How I became HCV positive?
a) when my ex then-girlfriend not slept with anyone only with me and we both was healthy
b) I have not been in a hospital setting that time
c) I do not have any injuries that time
d) I have did not meet with any doctor or patient that time
e) I have never any sexual sickness in my life

I tell the secret: the two new neighbors was Jew secret agent with lockpick and a Hepatitis C virus sample.
They wait when I leave my home and pick the lock and infect my food with HCV virus in my refrigerator when I am not at home
And what do you think who is behind it all?
My huffish russian jew stylist friend who thinks this is the right penalty for a anger?

Now I am HCV positive rest of my life thanks for the Jews, because they are not the Evils in this Earth, only constantly - all time dramatic Holocaust survivors - and the nation who must be sorry to everyone
The question is: we sorry the Holocaust but who sorry those victims the Jews killed or infected lethal viruses?
I drop the Jew theme now, but remember the reality is this in here, not what you see in the television and this is not nazism, not anti semitism, and not paranoid fantasy, these are the Jews if you like or not

IMI, really, this has gone too far, unless you have some manner of supportive documentation for your claims, you will keep them off the boards. You've been around here long enough to know the rules, so please abide by them. you have two warnings already, and this is your third. continue as you have been, and we will be forced to make a decision about it. Take a deep breath, and relax.

Nickdfresh
03-01-2016, 12:36 PM
...
It of course is not the case that the highly-communist Jews after the war, what they did hundreds of German civilians was shot down for nothing (women and children) were shot and thousands of soldiers in the POW camps and Gulags
The Volkdeutches all around the eastern section was arrested and send to Siberia and the Jewish controlled communist took their houses and owned lands

...
The ex-communist Jewish terror is taking place today in here Europe, only quietly terminally ill. The Jews are doing so from people who do not like them (for example,get to radioactive uranium in the victim water to drink and the victim is die a few years "cancer in natural causes")

The communist who killed the most wasn't Jewish at all, he was in fact enrolled in the seminary to be a priest!!
7663

If you're retreading the same old tired antisemitic cliches and conspiracy shat of Jews being untrustworthy others predestined for evil and treachery, you are indeed treading on very thin ice sir...

imi
03-02-2016, 04:06 AM
The communist who killed the most wasn't Jewish at all, he was in fact enrolled in the seminary to be a priest!!
7663

If you're retreading the same old tired antisemitic cliches and conspiracy shat of Jews being untrustworthy others predestined for evil and treachery, you are indeed treading on very thin ice sir...

Dear Nick!
If you are born and live in Europe, rather in the eastern ex commie sections, you know that Jews and Communists and Zionists are the same band
The biggest communist leaders are in large scale are jews (Stalin was also a Georgian born jew), they generate the big "antifasict" group with the soviet communists after ww2 until 1989, when the Soviet Union was crashed
And now we are here in the imperialist West who also controlled by jews from the USA and here in Eastern Europe they are still in power in the ex-communist jewish leaders minions and their non - jewish but serves Jewish interests politicians

You ever heard of the secret Jewish organization called "Spider" after the Second World War, which were built all around the world to track down Nazi war criminals?
You can imagine the Spider without Nazis, only rise to the power like the Jewish build and controlled Freemasonry in the 19th century in Europe who same today nothing to fear

This is a forum from USA as I know (or from Canada?) I don't know what is the opinion about the Jews in the USA
Here in Europe the Jews are a 24/7 Holocaust repetitve, haughty,still communist, racist and underhand and malicious murder company who are not afraid of anything, to get the power and money and this is the truth,as my previous HCV infection from the Jews, not anti semitism

Looks like who seems to have a different opinion about the Jews immediatly a "Nazi" and a "anti-Semitic" and also a good question as to why everybody must thought the Jews can not do bad things
I wrote the truth about the Jews and what their do in here Europe and I get to warned? This is ridiculous
USA is a land of naive babies looks like
http://oi68.tinypic.com/14m5mvp.jpg

JR*
03-02-2016, 04:32 AM
7664

This thread has gone completely off the wall. What else can I say ? In sadness, JR.

imi
03-02-2016, 04:51 AM
7664

This thread has gone completely off the wall. What else can I say ? In sadness, JR.

This is the truth JR, not the original title such as "Poles killed more Jews then Nazis"
Poor Poles never hurt Jews and they really suck with the war with Hitler from the left and right with Stalin after 1939 in the Katyn massacre especially 22.000 victims who massacred like a slaughterhouse
Some info
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

Personally I like you JR really but I think are you peoples in the West and the USA a little naive about peoples from Europe, especially the Ex communist wild Russians and the ex communist "rise to power and do what we want" Jews

Rising Sun*
03-02-2016, 06:46 AM
imi, you need to let go of your curious views if you want to stay on this forum.

In the interests of protecting imi from himself, this thread has been closed.

Nickdfresh
03-02-2016, 01:29 PM
Dear Nick!
If you are born and live in Europe, rather in the eastern ex commie sections, you know that Jews and Communists and Zionists are the same band
The biggest communist leaders are in large scale are jews (Stalin was also a Georgian born jew), they generate the big "antifasict" group with the soviet communists after ww2 until 1989, when the Soviet Union was crashed
And now we are here in the imperialist West who also controlled by jews from the USA and here in Eastern Europe they are still in power in the ex-communist jewish leaders minions and their non - jewish but serves Jewish interests politicians

You ever heard of the secret Jewish organization called "Spider" after the Second World War, which were built all around the world to track down Nazi war criminals?
You can imagine the Spider without Nazis, only rise to the power like the Jewish build and controlled Freemasonry in the 19th century in Europe who same today nothing to fear

This is a forum from USA as I know (or from Canada?) I don't know what is the opinion about the Jews in the USA
Here in Europe the Jews are a 24/7 Holocaust repetitve, haughty,still communist, racist and underhand and malicious murder company who are not afraid of anything, to get the power and money and this is the truth,as my previous HCV infection from the Jews, not anti semitism

Looks like who seems to have a different opinion about the Jews immediatly a "Nazi" and a "anti-Semitic" and also a good question as to why everybody must thought the Jews can not do bad things
I wrote the truth about the Jews and what their do in here Europe and I get to warned? This is ridiculous
USA is a land of naive babies looks like
http://oi68.tinypic.com/14m5mvp.jpg


I understand this thread is closed. But I need to clarify a few things here. I am not going to debate anything point by point, but Stalin was in no way Jewish. He was brought up Orthodox and was sent to the seminary by his mother. Hi parents were impoverished and members of the underclass. The only claims of Stalin being "Jewish" are made by agendist rightwing extremists and even communist-nationalist (i.e. members of the Polish communist gov't that were trying to stir nationalist feelings)...

Secondly, the "Jewish Bolshevik" argument was a red herring that was contradicted by Hitler himself. His greatest fear was not of "Bolshevik Jews" but of "Jewish capitalist bankers and Hollywood studio executives" supposedly controlling the United States gov't and the FDR administration. So, you can't have it both ways, unless of course one is batshat crazy and seeking to combine all their hatred in a convenient, easy target.

There was strong antisemitism in the US at one time with job/help wanted ads stating "no Jews need apply". But that by and large went away after the Holocaust...

Nickdfresh
06-13-2016, 03:19 PM
Tepidity reopening this thread by request. Please keep all comments respectful...

Chevan
06-14-2016, 03:43 AM
Well, yes, I have a thought. He's an idiot.

Hello mate Kovalski!
He might be idiot, but the polish govenment will be the double-idiotic if not take that new wave of anti-semitic charges seriously (http://www.jta.org/2016/05/05/news-opinion/world/jewish-high-schoolers-picket-polish-consulate-in-ny-to-protest-holocaust-whitewash).
Otherwise be ready to pay compensation for ..holocaust just like Germany pays;)
You shoud learn the simple rule- the top-media never starts the theme , having no plan behind;) DOesn't matter who was an author, who write the first. The jewish organisations of USA has a long row of complains against both polish state and "amateur rural" antisemitism. It sensless try to justyfy the poles by the harsh "soviet/nazis occupation".It just doesn't work now. The Jews know the story of polish antisemitism. Just read the jewish press better to learn the tendency. Becouse the jewish press does express the oppinion of AIPAK - the only lobby that has a "decesive vote" in congress and , definitally, play the critical role in entire jurudical system of US and , thus in the international courts.


He's not having a good time right now, apparently because the idea of blaming Poles for all the evil is not selling well.

Who was that ba..rd to blame the poles for all the evil!!! I though they have the enough russians for that role;) Oh, fnally we may to relax a bit, and have a little time-out for fun;)


as Westeners are willing to believe some even the most absurd theories. Hollywood kind of historian. No need to waste more time on him.
Really westenenrs such a ...nasty?;) I thought they honored who saved you from communism;) Well as for Holliwood- don't underestimate it. The cimena has a leading role in mainstream suggestion and propogand. So if once, say they shot an new bestseller kinda "Pogrom in Jedwabne" which , of cource will get and Oscar ( manies of them);) - then suddenly , there appears a thousand of survived ( what a miracle!) and who will charge a lawsuit , saing - the "that Jedwabne “was NOT an isolated incident,” adding: “We’ve heard many survivors speak of the glee that their Polish neighbors had when Jews were being mercilessly persecuted.” (http://www.jta.org/2016/05/05/news-opinion/world/jewish-high-schoolers-picket-polish-consulate-in-ny-to-protest-holocaust-whitewash). Would it be so absourdic for polish govenment?

Chevan
06-14-2016, 03:50 AM
I need to clarify a few things here. I am not going to debate anything point by point, but Stalin was in no way Jewish. He was brought up Orthodox and was sent to the seminary by his mother. Hi parents were impoverished and members of the underclass. The only claims of Stalin being "Jewish" are made by agendist rightwing extremists and even communist-nationalist (i.e. members of the Polish communist gov't that were trying to stir nationalist feelings)...

..can stop reading this again and again;) Can i believe to my eyes? Nick makes a protection to Stalin from polish nationalists-communists. Where is thas world going down?;)

Chevan
06-14-2016, 04:14 AM
Hitler and Stalin carved Poland up so that for the period 1939-41 the Soviets controlled about half of Poland.

But how the soviet occupation will justify the murdering of jews who has been considered by poles as a judo-bolsheviks and it's supporters (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BBydokomuna) on nazis's manner? If to folow the logic- the Soviets protected the polish jews from mass murdering and antisemitism! So manies of jews have been actually saved in Soviet zone.


Given well established Soviet atrocities such as the Katyn Massacre and the reign of terror the Soviets exercised in Poland 1939-41, it is curious that Professor Grosz's assertions and James Wald's comment completely ignore, first, the extent to which Soviet conduct contributed to the deaths of Jews (and ethnic Poles and sundry others in Poland) and, second, the impossibility of roughly half the population of Poland in Soviet occupied areas being able to kill Germans.

But there is no real evidence and connection between the soviet "class terror" and "soviet contribution to deatch of jews"!!! Moreover the Soviet fought the anti-semitims decidedly - there were a lot of death penalty for that in Red Army. In Western Ukraine the soviets got in 1939 about 3 millions of jews, manies of whom have been moved deep into USSR. And thus, have been saved from german-urainian holocaus there. So the accusation against soviets have no real basis, just like the fake connection with Katyn massacre and antisemitism.
Am i right or jurisprudence has it's own view?;)

imi
06-15-2016, 01:15 AM
The first concentration camps build up in Germany in the year of 1933
The whole world knows about this camps and knows what happening in these camps, and no one does nothing:

- Most of the European Jews don't emigrate to other nazi free countries in 1933 and then either
- the Soviet Union or the USA not declaring war until 1941

a) Germany declared war in June 22, 1941 against the Soviet Union (the Operation Barbarossa begins)
b) The United States declared war against Germany December 11, 1941, (after Japan forces attack Pearl Harbor)

So you do not need to be a math genius to calculate that during the past 8 years from 1933 until 1941 neither the Soviet Union nor the US is not involved in the war only because of the Jewish concentration camps are operating
That time 8 years passed away in the Nazi Germany and the territorys without any invasion from any Soviet or US side for the operation of the concentration camps
In truth, no one of the country did not care at the time of the Holocaust, refugees received (mostly in the US) but they did nothing more

More rather the Soviet Union and the USA declares war to Hitler and their allies that because these countries attacked each other

Otherwise from the Soviet side, Stalin was never interested in who they kill: the Russians killed everyone without racial prejudice, operating same concentration working camps called Gulags in the Soviet Union (without racial selection and gas chambers, they simply starved or shot to death the Gulag camp prisoners,or the prisoners got illness because the malnutrition and poor medical conditions or getting cold of the -40 Celsius degree winters in Siberia)


Stalin gives order to plan to deport all Jews from the area of the Soviet Union to Siberia from March 5th, 1953 after he had a discussion of Russian Jewish intellectuals, but he got stroke and fell into coma in March 2, 1953 and died 5 March 1953, so this deportation order and plan never realized later
In 2003, a joint Russian-American historian group issued a notice stating that Stalin's body shown the remains of Warfarin (strong rat poison) remembered that prevents blood clotting and causing a stroke in humans so Stalin was murdered, not died of natural causes
Take a guess who murdered Stalin

Chevan
06-15-2016, 09:22 AM
......Take a guess who murdered Stalin
I have no clue;) :mrgreen: But if to take your words seriously and Stalin was a jew- why should jew Stalin to deports all the soviet jews to death on the Siberia? There is no any sense. Although, seems you don't care about sense.

imi
06-16-2016, 06:21 AM
I have no clue;) :mrgreen: But if to take your words seriously and Stalin was a jew- why should jew Stalin to deports all the soviet jews to death on the Siberia? There is no any sense. Although, seems you don't care about sense.

I have have been described once: because he had a previous discussion of Russian Jewish intellectuals and that's why he want to deportate all the Jews to Siberia
Stalin was a ruthless dictator who could not argue with,even his staff also feared him because he was a paranoid and cruel man
The sense is the high probability of Russian Jews or the Russian Jews order someone to murder Stalin to disconcert the mass Jewish population deportation to the Gulags
Anyway you don't know about too much Jews: they stick together but also kill each other if the situation and the jewish community require usually for the power or the money (these days also) but that time the question was the survival

Stalin mainly cared about his own opinion usually and he was made one of the largest genocide in the world more bigger than Hitler did:

- After the Soviet Union dissolved, evidence from the Soviet archives became available, containing official records of the execution of approximately 800,000 prisoners under Stalin for either political or criminal offenses, around 1.7 million deaths in the Gulags and some 390,000 deaths during kulak forced resettlement – for a total of about 3 million officially recorded victims in these categories.

- In 1930s, the NKVD conducted a series of national operations, which targeted some "national contingents" suspected in counter-revolutionary activity. A total of 350,000 were arrested and 247,157 were executed. Of these, the Polish operation, which targeted the members of already non-existing Polska Organizacja Wojskowa appears to have been the largest, with 140,000 arrests and 111,000 executions

- In the summer and autumn of 1937, Joseph Stalin sent NKVD agents to the Mongolian People's Republic and engineered a Mongolian Great Terror in which some 22,000 and 35,000 people were executed. Around 18,000 victims were Buddhist lamas

- in 1932 and 1933, only 11 million russian peasants deportation to Ukraine that was the big collectivization period,only in Ukraine 7-10 million people (which was 3 million children) died in Ukraine because Stalin starved to death them.
In Ukraine called this "Holodomor" wich was already a bigger number than the Nazi Holocaust

- In 1935, Stalin in the Soviet Union area introduced the death penalty for children also is up from the age 12

- In September of 1939 Stalin order to execute 21,857 Polish POWs and intellectual leaders in what has become known as the "Katyn massacre"

- Great Purge (Yezhovshchina)
Stalin's attempts to solidify his position as leader of the Soviet Union lead to an escalation in detentions and executions of various people, climaxing in 1937–38 (a period sometimes referred to as the "Yezhovshchina," or Yezhov era), and continuing until Stalin's death in 1953. Around 700,000 of these were executed by a gunshot to the back of the head, others perished from beatings and torture while in "investigative custody" and in the Gulag due to starvation, disease, exposure and overwork.
Arrests were typically made citing counter-revolutionary laws, which included failure to report treasonous actions and, in an amendment added in 1937, failing to fulfill one's appointed duties. In the cases investigated by the State Security Department of the NKVD (GUGB NKVD) October 1936 – November 1938, at least 1,710,000 people were arrested and 724,000 people executed.Regarding the persecution of clergy, Michael Ellman has stated that "...the 1937–38 terror against the clergy of the Russian Orthodox Church and of other religions (Binner & Junge 2004) might also qualify as genocide". Citing church documents, Alexander Nikolaevich Yakovlev has estimated that over 100,000 priests, monks and nuns were executed during this time.
Former "kulaks" and their families made up the majority of victims, with 669,929 people arrested and 376,202 executed.

Only the USSR 61 million people killed under the Communism, in other Soviet Communist territory countries killed about 3 million people
I find it interesting that you do not know about these things, your own leader

imi
06-16-2016, 06:31 AM
The victims of the Soviet Communism

61,911,000 Victims: Utopianism Empowered 1917 to 1987

- 3,284,000 Victims: The Civil War Period 1917 to 1922
- 2,200,000 Victims: The NEP Period 1923-1928
- 11,440,000 Victims: The Collectivization Period 1928-1935
- 4,345,000 Victims: The Great Terror Period 1935-1938
- 5,104,000 Victims: Pre-World War II Period 1939 to June, 1941
- 13,053,000 Victims: World War II Period June, 1941 to 1945
- 15,613,000 Victims: Post-War and Stalin's Twilight Period 1945-1953
- 6,872,000 Victims: Post-Stalin Period 1954-1987

Rising Sun*
06-16-2016, 07:06 AM
The first concentration camps build up in Germany in the year of 1933
The whole world knows about this camps and knows what happening in these camps, and no one does nothing:

Why would the rest of the world do anything about prison / forced labour camps that weren't any more of an abuse of human rights than, say, the exploitation by European colonial powers of large slabs of the world and their peoples?



Stalin gives order to plan to deport all Jews from the area of the Soviet Union to Siberia from March 5th, 1953 after he had a discussion of Russian Jewish intellectuals, but he got stroke and fell into coma in March 2, 1953 and died 5 March 1953, so this deportation order and plan never realized later
In 2003, a joint Russian-American historian group issued a notice stating that Stalin's body shown the remains of Warfarin (strong rat poison) remembered that prevents blood clotting and causing a stroke in humans so Stalin was murdered, not died of natural causes
Take a guess who murdered Stalin

Murdered?

A man in his mid 70s with severe high blood pressure and sundry other health problems?

Warfarin is a blood thinning agent still used in humans with high blood pressure and other circulatory problems. Eisenhower's doctors prescribed it for him during his Presidency. Was that part of some wider conspiracy to wipe out the leaders in the East and West?

Most prescription drugs are harmful or even fatal if used in higher than therapeutic doses. Even non-prescription items can be harmful or fatal if used to excess, such as too much water or table salt. The presence of warfarin in Stalin's corpse proves nothing, and certainly nothing about who (apart perhaps from his doctor, who wasn't too popular with Stalin at that time) was responsible for his death.

Even an excessive amount proves nothing, as old people routinely get confused about their medications and kill themselves by taking too much.

imi
06-16-2016, 07:16 AM
Why would the rest of the world do anything about prison / forced labour camps that weren't any more of an abuse of human rights than, say, the exploitation by European colonial powers of large slabs of the world and their peoples?



Murdered?

A man in his mid 70s with severe high blood pressure and sundry other health problems?

Warfarin is a blood thinning agent still used in humans with high blood pressure and other circulatory problems. Eisenhower's doctors prescribed it for him during his Presidency. Was that part of some wider conspiracy to wipe out the leaders in the East and West?

Most prescription drugs are harmful or even fatal if used in higher than therapeutic doses. Even non-prescription items can be harmful or fatal if used to excess, such as too much water or table salt. The presence of warfarin in Stalin's corpse proves nothing, and certainly nothing about who (apart perhaps from his doctor, who wasn't too popular with Stalin at that time) was responsible for his death.

Even an excessive amount proves nothing, as old people routinely get confused about their medications and kill themselves by taking too much.

- I write this because the Russians to this day they presented and lie themselves as the "saviors of Jews", while from 1933 until 1941, they are not absolutely not interested in the operation of concentration camps until get in war with the Nazis in 1941

- Yes Stalin was old but according to official reports, they were also called a doctor to 11 hours after Stalin get stroke
And the time of Stalin's deportation order and stroke is suspect because it is very close to each other
Warfarin was used that time really for medical purposes but only question is whether Stalin murdered deliberately overdose or died of natural causes

Nickdfresh
06-16-2016, 12:51 PM
- I write this because the Russians to this day they presented and lie themselves as the "saviors of Jews", while from 1933 until 1941, they are not absolutely not interested in the operation of concentration camps until get in war with the Nazis in 1941

- Yes Stalin was old but according to official reports, they were also called a doctor to 11 hours after Stalin get stroke
And the time of Stalin's deportation order and stroke is suspect because it is very close to each other
Warfarin was used that time really for medical purposes but only question is whether Stalin murdered deliberately overdose or died of natural causes

There's a bit of a semanticist confusion here, but the initial Nazi "concentration camps" were just that: a concentration of political prisoners that were too numerous for the existing prison system. They did not become official "death camps" until after the Wannsee Conference in which the Final Solution was agreed upon and the Jews were to be "evacuated" (a euphemism for murdered, so that the notes of the conference were less tainted). ..

Chevan
06-16-2016, 01:31 PM
I have have been described once: because he had a previous discussion of Russian Jewish intellectuals and that's why he want to deportate all the Jews to Siberia

But you still have not clarified the reason why after meeting with jewish intellectuals jew Stalin should want to deport all the jewry to Siberia?
If Stalin was a jew- he could come to top of the power ONLY with help of jewry , which by you mind was fully controlled by, in soviet Judea. So what was the motivation to Stalin to hate it's own brother-jews who gave him a power? There is something illogical;)


I find it interesting that you do not know about these things, your own leader
And i find interesting that you literally repeat the all Nazis race hate propogand about Stalin and its jewry;) And more amazing - mods seem find your posts funny. But you still wonder me in each post - you shopuld love the Stalin, coz Stalin became the same antisemite like you wanted punish and deport all the jews out of european Russia, which you charactirise as "dastard" who poisoned you with Hypatitus C, right? So why do you dislake Stalin, who learned the "jewish true nature" and hate all the jews just like you are?;)

Chevan
06-16-2016, 01:41 PM
Stalin was a ruthless dictator who could not argue with,even his staff also feared him because he was a paranoid and cruel man

If he was paranoidal- how do we know?
From Wiki

Paranoia is a thought process believed to be heavily influenced by anxiety or fear, often to the point of delusion and irrationality.[1] Paranoid thinking typically includes persecutory, or beliefs of conspiracy concerning a perceived threat towards oneself (e.g. "Everyone is out to get me")
You will laught - he seriously though the jews wanted to poison him (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot)

In 1952–53, a group of prominent Moscow doctors (predominantly Jews) were accused of conspiring to assassinate Soviet leaders.
Hmmmn, seems i heard something simular in THIS thread? No?;)
Imi, say it honestly, are you the paranoidal stalinist just like Stalin, if you seriously think the jews specially have infected you with Hypatitus C.;) Nothing personal - just observation..

imi
06-17-2016, 12:13 AM
If he was paranoidal- how do we know?
From Wiki

You will laught - he seriously though the jews wanted to poison him (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot)

Hmmmn, seems i heard something simular in THIS thread? No?;)
Imi, say it honestly, are you the paranoidal stalinist just like Stalin, if you seriously think the jews specially have infected you with Hypatitus C.;) Nothing personal - just observation..


- You can't read? Stalin was not everybodys favourite playmate: he was a ruthless dictator who responsible a minimum 49.565000 person genocide under his regime and occupied half Europe after WW2
Only the Ukraine genocide called "Holodomor" who made by Stalin under 1 year was bigger, than the Hitler made genocide called "Holocaust" under his 12 years dictatorship, Stalin is responsible for 10x as many people death as Hitler
Hitler compared with Stalin an almost a innocent lamb :lol:

- The NKVD, GPU and the Soviet army commisars has listened and wrote reports about his own mens and the slightest defect or doubt is immediately executed or deported to each other in the communist comrades,even Stalin his predecessor Lenin's staff is was brought to court this is called russians "jesovschina" aka "The Great Cleansing" <---this is paranoia isn't it? :?:

- honestly about in my "Hypatitus C" infection theme, but nothing personal: you are a son of a bitch, you half asian red devil russki bastard bolshevik mother****er :evil:
You dirty communist provocateur: you playing to getting banned me from the ww2incolor forum?
I became infected with the incurable deadly infectious hepatitis C underhand by one of the Israeli - Russian citizen who it became my enemy because only of a hassle <--- very funny isn't it?
Looks like you're comrades needless to more today than Stalin had. Only a hassle and death comes right away so easy in from the bastard Russians: Chevan you are just as ruthless killers than 60 years ago, and Russia is still the worst enemy of the whole white race on Earth and the Whole World
Now you can see why I cannot talk with you russki bastards, you are one company, all the same liars and terrorists

God save the white race and world from the liar and terrorist Russians from now and the future!

To the forum moderators: the topic is now re opened, I shall historical facts, but the russian mother****er chevan is provoke me and mocking my deadly infectious disease. Please ban the liar and mocking bastard for a while to think about what he described. :evil: It seems the Russians is their reaction to the truth,my datas are historical facts and numbers from Stalin and his regime, not fiction

Chevan
06-17-2016, 03:53 AM
Please calm down , imi. There is nothing insulting for me indeed. It's just patology of your consistension

- You can't read? Stalin was not everybodys favourite playmate: he was a ruthless dictator who responsible a minimum 49.565000 person genocide under his regime and occupied half Europe after WW2
Sure he was a ruthless dictator, did i ever argue this fact? But what was the reason of his patological ruthless? It was paranoia - the "irrational patological fear". So he feared the people, and coz he could to kill - he killed a millions. Just like his mate Hitler. So Paranoidal maniak on the power is a very danger phenomenon for nation. But i want you to know the Paranoia attacks not only dictators. The average people are under treat as well. You should know the Paranoia is much more danger then Hypatitus C While with Hypatitus man can live - paranoia once will has kill you!!! It suicidal illness. Remember it.


- The NKVD, GPU and the Soviet army commisars has listened and wrote reports about his own mens and the slightest defect or doubt is immediately executed or deported to each other in the communist comrades,even Stalin his predecessor Lenin's staff is was brought to court this is called russians "jesovschina" aka "The Great Cleansing" <---this is paranoia isn't it? :?:

Exactly. The classical paranoia case - as it is. The "irrational fear to lose the power" makes the maniak Stalin to kill each potential competitor around!!!An academical-studying case of Paranoia...


You dirty communist provocateur: you playing to getting banned me from the ww2incolor forum?

Nope- i just want to help you. Becouse all you accusation are irrational and illogical - there is no doubts for me - the problem is inside you. And i don't look at you as at enemy, so i have no reasons to make to bann you on this forum.


I became infected with the incurable deadly infectious hepatitis C underhand by one of the Israeli - Russian citizen who it became my enemy because only of a hassle <--- very funny isn't it?

What is funny in Paranoia? It may kill you faster you may guess. The Hepatitus is not a real your treat - the paranoia is a real.You still ignore this fact.The Hepatitus C has a various ways to infect the man't organism. The cheap and danger alcohol affect the liver and pancreas and easy may cause the infection of Hepatitus. You can't know for sure who( or what) have poisoned you, endeed;)


Looks like you're comrades needless to more today than Stalin had. Only a hassle and death comes right away so easy in from the bastard Russians: Chevan you are just as ruthless killers than 60 years ago, and Russia is still the worst enemy of the whole white race on Earth and the Whole World

The unmotivated anger- is the another one bright effect of paranoia! Although i didn't kill a one in my life - you blame me as killer;)


Now you can see why I cannot talk with you russki bastards, you are one company, all the same liars and terrorists

yeah..the agressive form of conspiracy yet;) We are the "same liars and terrorists" around. We all want to kill you;)


God save the white race and world from the liar and terrorist Russians from now and the future!

Sure russians are"all the liars and terrorists"- what would you expect from low-race Untermenshen subhuman , as Fuerher Adolf teach you in ww2? Now you see how of paranoia may transform - from Stalin's form to Hitler's race-hate form?
And that why the paranoida maniaks , when come to power start to kill the people by millions. The HATE is becoming the major you feeling ( after the FEAR)!!It's danger condition , imi.


To the forum moderators: Please ban the liar and mocking bastard for a while to think about what he described. :evil: It seems the Russians is their reaction to the truth,my datas are historical facts and numbers from Stalin and his regime, not fiction[/B]
You see, they don't ban me, although you said the true and "they have enough evidence that i'm evil liar and ba..rd";) How do you think WHY? Maybe coz they all the same jewish mafia and all of the under controll of ZOG. Hopeless situation..
You see , the everything is against you, imi. That's the way the Paranoia attack the brain. You shouldn't ignore the first symptoms.Until it too late.
PS. Advice: Just don't go to the psychiatrist. If he will be the jew- he definitelly will try to pison you with more danger illness, say ..AIDS. Be carefull, we don't want to lose you as "another one victim of 61 mln killed by Stalin" ;)

Rising Sun*
06-17-2016, 05:42 AM
Tepidity reopening this thread by request. Please keep all comments respectful...

Yeah, that worked out about as well as expected.

Thread closed, for obvious reasons.

To anyone upset by this thread being closed, don't bother 'PMing' me or any other mods. We won't respond. If you can't see why it's been closed, we're not going to waste time trying to explain what should already be abundantly clear to you.

Nickdfresh
06-18-2016, 08:19 AM
Agreed :)

tankgeezer
06-18-2016, 08:45 AM
Then we have a quorum. ;)