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JR*
02-09-2015, 05:46 AM
I made a joke In Here some time ago (at least I thought it was a joke) about Putin's Panzers rolling towards Kiev. Some joke. The Panzers have indeed rolled; along with the rocket batteries, the heavy artillery, the crates of ammo, the night vision equipment ... of course, this has Nothing to Do with Russia. Admittedly, east Ukraine is a place that has long been well-supplied with small arms, thanks to the high level of militarization that characterized Soviet society, and there would have been some scope for obtaining heavy equipment by looting Ukrainian Army arsenals and depots but, at the same time, battle tanks and heavy guns do not grow on trees. Neither do crews trained to use heavy weapons. If these did not come from Mother Russia, where did they come from ? Answers on a postcard ...

... Meanwhile, back in Yerp, there is a certain irony in seeing Frau Merkel expounding on the "peace plan" developed by herself and by President Hollande of France at the annual European security conference, at Munich. In face of the apparently intractable situation, two possible solutions to a semi-solution seem to be emerging. The US is moving towards the option of supplying "defensive" armaments to the Ukrainians to help them defend their surviving territory. This notion scarcely promises a solution in itself since - unless it means something much more substantial than it says - it appears to ignore the problem of what one does about the large amount of Ukrainian territory already seized by the Little Russian Brothers in east Ukraine, not to mention that "annexed" by Russia itself in the Crimea. Set against this is the Merkel/Hollande Plan. It is not wholly clear what this would involve but, very clearly, it would involve some sort of "conciliated" plan that would necessarily leave a substantial amount of Ukrainian territory (certainly the Crimea) under Russian control, either directly or through the Little Russian Brothers. The US and "EU" approaches are, in effect, mutually contradictory, although not mutually exclusive. While the US government's precise position is unclear, it does emerge from the comments of "independent" US think-tanks that, over the Pond, many believe that the Merkel/Hollande Plan amounts to appeasement of Russia's armed aggression on the part of the West. I would not wish to take it too far - but comparisons with the Munich 1938 situation of "mediation" of a dispute in the East on the part of the Western "Powers" certainly invite themselves.

But "EU" Plan ? Er ... no. It is fascinating that both the Eurocracy and most of the EU Member States have, at least up to now, been frozen out of this process. It is very much an exclusive German/French initiative - that is, one by the original foundation EEC "Powers". The EU itself seems to have been relegated to a sort of reserve role, to be brought into play of the Franco-German effort runs into trouble. So much for the alleged collegiality and fraternity still attributed by deluded Europhiles to the EU "project".

One consequence of this approach that may yet have severe adverse consequences for the EU, just possibly overlooked (or maybe not) by Merkel and Hollande is the deep embarrassment it has caused to the other self-styled "power" in the EU, the United Kingdom. Britain obviously feels humiliated by their exclusion. The unfortunate UK Foreign Secretary was left struggling to explain this situation on a BBC news programme the other day; he was forced to say that the real decisions on this private exercise in Ostpolitik would be made in a forthcoming meeting of the EU Foreign Ministers' "General Questions" Council. Obvious nonsense; the Foreign Ministers will be lucky if the actual participants give them a general idea of what is going on. Certainly, no decisions of any sort will be made at this level. While Member States in general are probably irked by this example of Franco-German "leadership", it is a particular problem for Britain, given its perception of itself as a "Power" and the presence of a very strong and persistent anti-EU sentiment in the UK. The humiliation of Prime Minister Cameron and his government is grist to the mill of the strong anti-EU wing of the ruling Conservative Party and of the xenophobe United Kingdom Independence Party (UKIP). Cameron has promised that if the Conservatives (or a Conservative-led government) is returned to power in May's General Election, an "in-out" referendum on continued EU membership will be held. This is to follow an attempt to re-negotiate the terms of Britain's membership of the EU. Since the "terms" that the UK is interested in re-negotiating involve such things as free movement of persons, freedom of employment across the Union and employment protection laws - fundamental pillars of the EU Single Market, apart from anything else - it is difficult to see much being achieved by re-negotiation. Acts by the main "Continental powers" that humiliate and marginalize the UK will be another brick in the platform upon which the "No" campaign in a forthcoming referendum will build.

Perhaps Germany and France, tiring of the UK's continuously "difficult" attitude to EU business, have decided that they would be better off without the UK unless they pull into line ? Perhaps they are hoping that the next UK government will be led by the Labour Party, which has no commitment to a referendum and has for the most part "tamed" its own anti-European wing ? If this is the way the wind is blowing, it would dismay me, and many others in the Union. The UK Labour Party has a huge leeway to make up on the Tories in terms of seats to win following its defeat in the last General Election. Furthermore, the whole situation has been complicated by the collapse of Labour support in Scotland, promising significant gains by the Scottish National Party at Labour's expense. It is all too likely that the next government will either be Conservative or Conservative-led. In a worst case scenario (from an EU viewpoint) this Conservative government would be in coalition with the rabidly anti-EU UKIP. In such a scenario the in-out referendum would be very much on the cards, and a British exit from the Union all too likely. Greece leaving the Eurozone ? That would be a mere hiccup compared to the departure of one of the EU's three major economies from the Union as a whole.

Perhaps those of us who value Britain's membership of the EU - in spite of its *****ly presence - should pray for the victory of Labour and its highly intelligent but poorly-presenting leader, Ed "Wallace and/or Gromit" Milliband. Interesting times for the "New Europe" in any event ...

Yours from the bus-stop on Place Schuman, JR.

tankgeezer
02-10-2015, 12:28 AM
You have a well made crystal Ball JR, not the usual Lucas variety.

Rising Sun*
02-10-2015, 02:49 AM
... Meanwhile, back in Yerp, there is a certain irony in seeing Frau Merkel expounding on the "peace plan" developed by herself and by President Hollande of France at the annual European security conference, at Munich.

It's refreshing to see France and Germany united to prevent a European war rather than opposed to each other to bring one on.


The US is moving towards the option of supplying "defensive" armaments to the Ukrainians to help them defend their surviving territory.

Brilliant!

Re-ignite the Cold War with a long term prospect of turning it into a hot one with Putin at the Russian helm, and add Ukraine to America's almost unbroken run of losses, disasters, and self-inflicted wounds for the past half century when it interferes in places far from its homeland and with no or insufficient strategic value to warrant such intervention.

This latest American idiocy of threatening to get involved in something that has exactly zero bearing on the lives of Americans makes MacArthur's nuclear belligerence in Korea seem hugely rational. It also appears to spring from the same anti-Communist group think that requires Soviet, now Russian, expansion to be confronted to save the free world.



Greece leaving the Eurozone ? That would be a mere hiccup compared to the departure of one of the EU's three major economies from the Union as a whole.

Maybe.

Or maybe it would be the trigger that eventually destroys the EU and NATO, leading to the resumption of competition in various economic and military spheres by European nations, and leaves Russia as the major military power in Europe (assuming one regards Russia as being part of Europe).

As a side note, Greece is in exactly the position anyone with half a brain (which automatically excludes economists and national treasurers etc) knew it would be by imposing austerity measures which necessarily reduced Greece's economic activity, employment, production, and, obviously, ability to repay its debts. Nice work, mainly by Germany.

If an equivalent level of diplomatic genius is motivating France's and Germany's peace solution in Ukraine, the conflict with Russia will get worse.


Perhaps those of us who value Britain's membership of the EU - in spite of its *****ly presence - should pray for the victory of Labour and its highly intelligent but poorly-presenting leader, Ed "Wallace and/or Gromit" Milliband. Interesting times for the "New Europe" in any event ...

Those of us who value common sense would like to see it applied by (1) the US in keeping out of arming Ukraine, which has nothing to do with the US and can only inflame Russia's sense that the US is attempting to encircle it and or confront it (which is exactly what the US is doing); (2) the US waking up to the fact that, with the exception of Gulf War 1, for the past half century it hasn't demonstrated capacity to deal successfully with a number of hot wars which, compared with one with Russia, are trivial in the forces required and especially the logistics; and (3) unified action by NATO members and all other mature nations to deal with the Russian threat to peace rather than the independent and ill-considered floundering around by France / Germany pursuing an almost certainly doomed line and the US seeming about to pursue a contradictory and, for those hoping for peace, much more inflammatory line.

Europe seems to me to be entering the early stages of alignments and competing national aims which, although entirely different to those which existed before WWI, seem in some respects similar in their potential for armed conflict in an unstable situation. We're probably a long way off it, but with lunatic expansionist Putin seeking to re-establish the Russian Empire, it's a definite possibility.

JR*
02-17-2015, 04:04 AM
As Ukrainians and Russians/Little Russian Brothers continue to exchange artillery fire wherever it suits them, it looks as if Merkel's cease-fire is on the brink of collapse. Surprise, surprise ! I hope not, though. Best regards, JR.

JR*
02-19-2015, 09:04 AM
The Ukrainian Army had just been forced to make a withdrawal from a strategic area that rather resembled some of the "disorderly" breakouts by encircled German forces during WW2, albeit on a smaller scale. Two possibilities - first, having "disposed" of this contentious issue, the front may go quiet, effectively substantiating the Merkel/Hollande cease-fire. Secondly - both sides continue the conflict. The latter is very likely. The Little Russian Brothers appear determined to capture all ethnic Russian territory in east Ukraine. The Ukrainians appear determined to reverse the Little Russian Brothers/Russian occupation of Ukrainian territory - including the Crimea. It is doubtful whether either Vlad the Invader or the Ukrainian authorities are really in control of this situation at this point. Gods help us ! JR.

witman111
03-03-2015, 03:29 AM
Well, fact is Russia under Vlad The Invader is stronger than ever. Compare it to Jelcin era - what is to compare ? There would be no jerking with Kosovo had uncle Vlad been around.

To come back to topic.
Suddenly all seem to forgot that it was CIA sponsored/armed/financed Kiev toppling of Yanukovich that started this all. They armed Ukraine neo-nazis to teeth and opened Russian minority hunting season.
US isn't there by accident. Ukraine's resources are enormous to exploit. And Vlad Dracula won't allow Donbas to fall in wrong hands.

Sure Russia signed agreement not to attack Ukraine and broke this treaty. But that certainly implied it's minority won't be bullied up, and no NATO/EU in Ukraine. As regards history let's start with Kiev Rus.... Things are more complicated than we like them to be.

I quote Russian high adviser on CNN other day: "Russia defeated more serious opponents before, NATO countries should be reminded Russia is military superpower". I only hope there will be no war with Russia, or Russian tanks will be on Oder/Danube river again...

Nickdfresh
03-03-2015, 04:44 PM
Well, fact is Russia under Vlad The Invader is stronger than ever. Compare it to Jelcin era - what is to compare ? There would be no jerking with Kosovo had uncle Vlad been around.

LOL What would "Vlad" have done about Kosovo?


To come back to topic.
Suddenly all seem to forgot that it was CIA sponsored/armed/financed Kiev toppling of Yanukovich that started this all. They armed Ukraine neo-nazis to teeth and opened Russian minority hunting season.
US isn't there by accident. Ukraine's resources are enormous to exploit. And Vlad Dracula won't allow Donbas to fall in wrong hands.

The CIA had little involvement, it was a long simmering dispute within the Ukraine between those that didn't mind being a Russian province and those that did. If the Ukrainians are Neonazis, you should join them then!! And Donbas is devastated with an aging population as like 50% of the younger people have fled...


Sure Russia signed agreement not to attack Ukraine and broke this treaty. But that certainly implied it's minority won't be bullied up, and no NATO/EU in Ukraine. As regards history let's start with Kiev Rus.... Things are more complicated than we like them to be.

I quote Russian high adviser on CNN other day: "Russia defeated more serious opponents before, NATO countries should be reminded Russia is military superpower". I only hope there will be no war with Russia, or Russian tanks will be on Oder/Danube river again...

LOL Russia has serious issues with 4/5's of its conventional forces. They have an elite that is well funded, trained, and equipped; then there is the rest that would be target practice for NATO tanks. I wouldn't confuse Russian forces pushing around technically vastly inferior Ukrainian forces using their shit, obsolete equipment...

witman111
03-04-2015, 06:23 AM
LOL What would "Vlad" have done about Kosovo?

Nothing, all he had to show was little red button... rest is psychological profiling that was already done for him long ago.


The CIA had little involvement...

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37599.htm
:lol::lol::lol: Imagine protesters beating up US special police in Washington DC and Ucle Vlad threatening Obama not to use force 3 months before regular elections:):)
But they had to do it. Otherwise extreme right would never get to power.


LOL Russia has serious issues with 4/5's of its conventional forces. They have an elite that is well funded, trained, and equipped; then there is the rest that would be target practice for NATO tanks.

You know, Hitler thought same thing. Unmotivated Russians and obsolete Russian technology. And he was off, way off. Just ask elite German panzer divisions.
When EC president Barosso called Vlad to inquire about Russia's intervention in Ukraine, Vlad said "what intervention" ? And added if there were intervention, Russian tanks can be in Bukurest/Budapes/Warsaw in few days. And he was right.

I live in central Europe and I know very well no Cameron/Obama would ever come to save us.

and P.S
I so wish you to somehow spend 1 day in Stalingrad 1942...
That attitude of yours would come off in 5 min. And you would be probably dead next day. Frozen, un-buried with facial expression of unimaginable last breath agony and pain, as reminder to others of your kin.

tankgeezer
03-04-2015, 09:44 AM
When you have spent that day in 1942 Stalingrad, then you can recommend it to others. Otherwise, you will be seen as "talking through your hat" which is not something you want to be doing here. You are also getting very close to insulting another member which is against Forum rules. re: "Frozen, un-buried with facial expression of unimaginable last breath agony and pain, as reminder to others of your kin."

witman111
03-05-2015, 02:01 AM
1) I said his attitude would probably get him dead in situation he very much desires. Dead, frozen people TODAY in Ukraine are result of policy he advocates and implements even if only on forum.

2) When some1 tries to deny US sponsored Kiev coup with all the bloodshed that has brought to that country I don't know what else to say. Yanukovich was legally elected ! Just as that pro-western lady was before him and you didn't see Russians staging a coup nor hating Ukrainians for that part. Nick has to face with his more than double standards, sawing death and hatred all round globe.

And that is after US has unbroken streak of wars in last 2 decades. His gung-ho-democracy attitude has brought nothing but misery for citizens of Libiya and Syria to name but a few lately. All were more/less good, but now it's citizens are in religious fractions, enjoying NO law, NO social service, NO protection dying all over their cities and villages. With absolutely 0 prospect in future. Yes, thank you Nick and US.

Of course US did because it has interest to do so. Just as to attack Sadam AGAIN after he decides to charge oil in euros not dollars. Who is creating New World Order here ? Is it uncle Vlad ?

This is what gung-ho demoracy has brought to these nations:
7371

Dear Nick could considering relocating his headquarters from New York to Stalingrad 1942 or Syria.

Yes, I deeply wish he does so he wouldn't talk rubbish anymore.

JR*
03-05-2015, 05:50 AM
I do not know about US/CIA sponsorship of "Ukrainian fascists" but - to revert to my comments in another forum - there is no doubt whatsoever that the current crisis in the Ukraine was triggered by the bungling "Ostpolitik" of the incompetent Brussels bureaucracies, principally the European Union, but also, coat-tailing the EU, NATO.

Ever since the fall of the Berlin Wall, the EC/EU has consistently pursued a (forgive me) German-inspired "Drive to the East" - described to me once as "Blitzkrieg without panzers". Well, "Blitzkrieg" is perhaps wrong; more a case of "Sitzkrieg", perhaps. Slowly, over a period of two decades, the EU has extended membership eastward, increasingly absorbing the cordon of buffer states established for the old Soviet Union by Stalin. In many (all ?) cases, NATO membership followed. They went further, absorbing the Baltic States that were actually a part of the old Soviet Unioin; these states are now also full NATO members. This process was facilitated by the economic and political chaos into which Russia descended following the fall of the Soviet Union, which weakened its ability to mount an effective response.

This "Push to the East" was profoundly unwise, on two grounds. First, while the absorbtion of a number of western European states not perhaps ready for EC/EU membership (notably Ireland and Portugal, but also Spain) in the early phase of expansion (pre-Berlin Wall) made a certain sense in terms of the EC's basic "brief", expanding to the East involved taking in a number of large states burdened with the heritage of Soviet-type economic structures and legal systems that required much larger adjustment to adapt to EC membership, made little sense. On the economic front, progress towards EC/EU standards has been uneven - pretty successful in Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary, less convincing (to say the least) in other cases. The other major problem - that of the heritage of Soviet-type legal systems - remains hugely problematic and little addressed, and has already resulted in a myriad of little-publicized difficulties that may yet prove a major barrier to EU "cohesion".

The other problem, of course, is the old-fashioned geo-political one, that the EU/NATO expansion increasingly infringed Russia's historic "sphere of influence". This does not seem to have mattered much (at least from the EU/NATO point of view) as long as Russia remained, apparently, weak and quiescent. However, since he assumed what amounts to supreme power, Vladimir Putin has been reconstructing Russia on particular lines that have restored it to a degree of strength. True, it can now be described as an oligarchic kleptocracy, with Putin as "Supreme Magistrate" - hardly (from a western viewpoint) an ideal economic or political arrangement, and hardly the one most likely to benefit the Russian people, or even the power of the State to project its power. Reconstruction nonetheless, and it has now placed Russia in some position to project its historic political and nationalistic imperatives.

By late-2013, EU/NATO encroachment and Russian recovery were on an immediate collision course. The EU was on the point of concluding "association agreements" with the Ukraine and Moldova - both former Soviet Republics, right on Russia's borders. These agreements were, clearly, a prelude to membership processes, possibly leading to EU and NATO membership. Russia, very clearly, signaled its unwillingness to tolerate this. As far back as 2012, Russia had imposed temporary economic sanctions on the Ukraine that were essentially political in nature, but disguised under commercial and/or legal cover. At the end of 2013, threats of further sanctions were made against the Ukraine and Moldova, clearly designed to signal that these states should desist with moves to "deepen" their relationship with the EU. Moldova, whose economy (like that of the Baltic States) is critically dependent on trade with Russia) took the hint, and backed off. Ukraine, which is similarly dependent, did not, at least until it was too late. Having come within days of signing an EU association agreement, the Ukrainian government of the time, facing Russian threats, backed off. This, not surprisingly, resulted in an uprising against it by west Ukrainians who had been encouraged to expect the benefits of EU association and ultimate membership. And ... we all know the rest.

I am less than convinced that anything of this was inspired by the US or by the CIA or whatever. The period over which these events occurred was characterized by a general sense of withdrawal on the part of the US from interest in European defense, and (latterly) a switch to concentration on US interests in the Pacific theatre. No doubt, the US was happy to countenance the activities of the EU and NATO (as an organization) in eastern Europe; however, I very much doubt that US policy was a dominant interest in this process. It was more a matter of the EU's express determination to develop its "superstate" aspirations (establishment of an EU diplomatic service, for example) combined with the desperate desire of NATO to find a new reason for existence in a post-Cold War world. Now we have to deal with Cold War II. Nice work, Brussels. Yours from the Mineshaft Gap, JR.

tankgeezer
03-05-2015, 07:06 AM
Try not to fall off of your Soap Box there Witman 111, Your statement to Nick : "I so wish you to somehow spend 1 day in Stalingrad 1942...
That attitude of yours would come off in 5 min. And you would be probably dead next day. Frozen, un-buried with facial expression of unimaginable last breath agony and pain, as reminder to others of your kin." This hardly matches your back up statement:
" 1) I said his attitude would probably get him dead in situation he very much desires. Dead, frozen people TODAY in Ukraine are result of policy he advocates and implements even if only on forum. "
These two statements do not agree. You said you wished him into a situation most likely resulting in his grisly death.
If you have a problem with a member, keep it to P.M.'s as when it's done in the boards it can be considered Trolling, or Spamming. You are aware of how things work here, and are using a rather broad brush to make your claims. No more of your diatribes against other members This is an official notice.

witman111
03-05-2015, 08:53 AM
Having come within days of signing an EU association agreement, the Ukrainian government of the time, facing Russian threats, backed off. This, not surprisingly, resulted in an uprising against it by west Ukrainians who had been encouraged to expect the benefits of EU association and ultimate membership. And ... we all know the rest.

I am less than convinced that anything of this was inspired by the US or by the CIA or whatever.

Although I agree with most you said fact is US official said US paid up 5 billion $ for ... uprising. You missed that part ?
If you look at so called "protesters" on Youtube, they were by no means harmless civilians. They usually formed homogeneous groups of young males armed with cold weapons which they used freely on special police "Berkut". Frankly, if I was Berkut I would shot some1 with shovel or spike charging at me on the spot. Twice.
They were obviously trained in tactics, fearless and well organized.

They were no casual "civilans", they were armed, young, "organized" and obviously paid to be there. In thousands.

JR*
03-05-2015, 09:11 AM
Not terribly happy about being quoted somewhat out of context. As regards Youtube, Facebook and all the rest of that "social media" stuff, I am not involved and tend to regard it as a dangerous, poisonous, delusive, anti-social phenomenon. This Forum needs to cool down a bit. Remember - assertion is no substitute for evidence, and assertion (even by crowds of people on social media) is not "evidence", except insofar as it is supported by real evidence (in terms of the truth of its contents). Of course, it is always evidence of the fact that certain statements have been made, and that itself has an historical value; but only in a secondary sense. Best regards, JR.

Nickdfresh
03-05-2015, 05:58 PM
Nothing, all he had to show was little red button... rest is psychological profiling that was already done for him long ago.

Oh please! Like the U.S. and Euro countries don't?!



http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37599.htm
:lol::lol::lol: Imagine protesters beating up US special police in Washington DC and Ucle Vlad threatening Obama not to use force 3 months before regular elections:):)
But they had to do it. Otherwise extreme right would never get to power.

Misinformed and ain't too bright! how many "rightest" are actually in power in Kiev? Maybe 10% of the politicians? Another bland, bullshit Putin-ist propaganda piece...


You know, Hitler thought same thing. Unmotivated Russians and obsolete Russian technology. And he was off, way off. Just ask elite German panzer divisions.
When EC president Barosso called Vlad to inquire about Russia's intervention in Ukraine, Vlad said "what intervention" ? And added if there were intervention, Russian tanks can be in Bukurest/Budapes/Warsaw in few days. And he was right.

Yeah, um, try to read a bit about things. The Soviet Red Army was quite large and well funded prior to WWII. You're drawing silly historical parallels. Russian tanks would be smoldering hulks before they got too close to Warsaw...


I live in central Europe and I know very well no Cameron/Obama would ever come to save us.

You live in Croatia, where we "saved" you in 1995, by training and allowing your Army to be equipped to take back parts of "greater Serbia". You're welcome!


and P.S
I so wish you to somehow spend 1 day in Stalingrad 1942...
That attitude of yours would come off in 5 min. And you would be probably dead next day. Frozen, un-buried with facial expression of unimaginable last breath agony and pain, as reminder to others of your kin.

How would you know?

Nickdfresh
03-05-2015, 06:00 PM
When you have spent that day in 1942 Stalingrad, then you can recommend it to others. Otherwise, you will be seen as "talking through your hat" which is not something you want to be doing here. You are also getting very close to insulting another member which is against Forum rules. re: "Frozen, un-buried with facial expression of unimaginable last breath agony and pain, as reminder to others of your kin."

Well Valhalla boy is certainly talking out of something... :)

Nickdfresh
03-05-2015, 06:09 PM
1) I said his attitude would probably get him dead in situation he very much desires. Dead, frozen people TODAY in Ukraine are result of policy he advocates and implements even if only on forum.

What "policy", or policies, have I "advocated?"


2) When some1 tries to deny US sponsored Kiev coup with all the bloodshed that has brought to that country I don't know what else to say. Yanukovich was legally elected ! Just as that pro-western lady was before him and you didn't see Russians staging a coup nor hating Ukrainians for that part. Nick has to face with his more than double standards, sawing death and hatred all round globe.

Again, talking out of your ***! What evidence other than shit interweb links (and Russian state propaganda) has there ever been of a CIA engineered coup? How does the CIA mobilize the entire populace of a country to rise up against their leadership? Where is the precedent of anything like that ever happening? The Rotten Kiev regime of Yanukovich fell because, like the current gov't, it was rife with corruption. Yes it was democratically elected at one point, but so was Mugabe! Putin has poisoned and killed his enemies repeatedly, but you have the insanity or gall to finger the "CIA" here? Really?..


And that is after US has unbroken streak of wars in last 2 decades. His gung-ho-democracy attitude has brought nothing but misery for citizens of Libiya and Syria to name but a few lately. All were more/less good, but now it's citizens are in religious fractions, enjoying NO law, NO social service, NO protection dying all over their cities and villages. With absolutely 0 prospect in future. Yes, thank you Nick and US.

So does Croatia. No? Did you kill anyone in the 1990's? Ethnically cleanse any Serbs or Muslim Bosniaks?


Of course US did because it has interest to do so. Just as to attack Sadam AGAIN after he decides to charge oil in euros not dollars. Who is creating New World Order here ? Is it uncle Vlad ?

What "New World Order?" Like the one with ISIS? Or is that our fault too?


This is what gung-ho demoracy has brought to these nations:
7371

Dear Nick could considering relocating his headquarters from New York to Stalingrad 1942 or Syria.

Yes, I deeply wish he does so he wouldn't talk rubbish anymore.

Maybe I'll relocate to Croatia with my girlfriend from those parts? I'm sure there must be some empty homes left by the Serb residents you forced out at gunpoint?

Nickdfresh
03-05-2015, 06:11 PM
Stalingrad? What about Dubrovnik? I thought all of you Ustasha loved your dear heroic defenders of Dubrovnik and their ceaseless courage against the JNA onslaught!!

Nickdfresh
03-05-2015, 06:33 PM
Try not to fall off of your Soap Box there Witman 111, Your statement to Nick : "I so wish you to somehow spend 1 day in Stalingrad 1942...
That attitude of yours would come off in 5 min. And you would be probably dead next day. Frozen, un-buried with facial expression of unimaginable last breath agony and pain, as reminder to others of your kin." This hardly matches your back up statement:
" 1) I said his attitude would probably get him dead in situation he very much desires. Dead, frozen people TODAY in Ukraine are result of policy he advocates and implements even if only on forum. "
These two statements do not agree. You said you wished him into a situation most likely resulting in his grisly death.
If you have a problem with a member, keep it to P.M.'s as when it's done in the boards it can be considered Trolling, or Spamming. You are aware of how things work here, and are using a rather broad brush to make your claims. No more of your diatribes against other members This is an official notice.


He's from Croatia! :mrgreen: That's like someone from Florida telling me how horrible winters can be.. ;)

tankgeezer
03-05-2015, 07:28 PM
[QUOTE=Nickdfresh;194288]He's from Croatia! :mrgreen: That's like someone from Florida telling me how horrible winters can be.. ;)[/QUOTE
Yep, I've heard the chilling, and horrific tales of waiting in line to get into the Golden Corral lunch buffet when the mercury would plummet to 65 degrees, people clumped in groups for warmth, talking about Bingo through chattering teeth. Oh! the Humanity.

tankgeezer
03-05-2015, 08:05 PM
I recounted this thread to some of my relatives, who are oddly enough, also Hrvatski, and in general, their response was:

witman111
03-10-2015, 04:55 AM
1. Sergeant Major is quite objective and reasonable is his statements, unlike gun-ho Nick here.

Oh please! Like the U.S. and Euro countries don't?!
That's not the point. You don't mess with some1 or allies of some1 who has 10.000 nuclear/hydrogen warheads.

Misinformed and ain't too bright! how many "rightest" are actually in power in Kiev? Maybe 10% of the politicians? Another bland, bullshit Putin-ist propaganda piece...
Is it ? You mean leader of neo-Nazi party (openly against Russian minority) becomes minister of Interior or defence ?





Yeah, um, try to read a bit about things. The Soviet Red Army was quite large and well funded prior to WWII. You're drawing silly historical parallels. Russian tanks would be smoldering hulks before they got too close to Warsaw..
Err, no they wouldn't.
Generally speaking, Russian military manufacturing capability overall outmaches anything in EU.


You live in Croatia, where we "saved" you in 1995, by training and allowing your Army to be equipped to take back parts of "greater Serbia". You're welcome!
a) You didn't save shit thank you very much. When (I would say foreign sponsored) war started in 1991 all UN did was impose arms embargo to Bosnia and Croatia effectively giving JNA go ahead. And you didn't arm any1.
b) Legally speaking, until Yugoslavia was officially disbanded and new Republics gained international recognition, JNA indeed was only legitimate military force (unfortunately fighting alongside Serbian extreme right formations).
c) Politicians of that time with similar democratic gung-ho attitude of yours brought hatred unimaginable only few years before in Ex-Yu. Same is happening in Ukraine. I saw that scenario already.

How would you know?
I read all of Beevor's books and draw conclusions. Did you not notice how British and Canadian Army could not dislodge 12 SS Hitlerjugend for months in Caen but Russians annihilated 3 better SS divisions (alongside generally bigger Wehrmacht formations) in weeks in Austria&Budapest ? Ring a bell ?


What "policy", or policies, have I "advocated?"
gun-ho presto democracy policy. Take a free tour from Libya-Syria-Iraq to Afganistan.


Again, talking out of your ***! What evidence other than shit interweb links (and Russian state propaganda) has there ever been of a CIA engineered coup? How does the CIA mobilize the entire populace of a country to rise up against their leadership? Where is the precedent of anything like that ever happening? The Rotten Kiev regime of Yanukovich fell because, like the current gov't, it was rife with corruption. Yes it was democratically elected at one point, but so was Mugabe! Putin has poisoned and killed his enemies repeatedly, but you have the insanity or gall to finger the "CIA" here? Really?..
1. Stupid US official was obviously clear enough.
2. It is clear that protesters were trained, armed and organized.
3. Average of "Entire populace" elected Yanukovich in first place. How bout that sugar pops ? I didn't see 40 million Ukranians in Kiev. Just 10.000 armed, organized protesters with whom any decent police should have dealt with waiting regular elections, sparing Ukraine of civil war it allowed itself to get into.
4. All previous Ukraine govt. were obviously corrupt. Including legally elected Julia Timoschenko. Did you see any Russians rioting in Kiev square ?
5. I risk my logical reasoning with next statement. Putin have poisoned and killed his enemies to well being of Russia today. What is it ? Unemployment 5%, GDP 3 times as before him and foreign reserves highest ever. Yes, compared to all leaders before him in Russia, Putin is by far the best since Peter The Great. And he is not creating New World Order, unlike some.


So does Croatia. No? Did you kill anyone in the 1990's? Ethnically cleanse any Serbs or Muslim Bosniaks?
1. True, Croatia helped out it's minority in Bosnia. Suspected war criminals are in Hague, (unlike any Americans who killed millions only in Vietnam). However, it never escalated to full scale ethnic cleansing Serbs carried out.
2. I was not in Army and did not kill any1 nor do I spread wholesale hatred. However, "democratic" bribed politicians (by the west of course, not by Russia) brought about great misfortunes which many did not deserve. I am at least smart to see that. Almost same is happening in Ukraine.


What "New World Order?"
You don't know bout New World Order ? The one ISIL is part of ?


Maybe I'll relocate to Croatia with my girlfriend from those parts? I'm sure there must be some empty homes left by the Serb residents you forced out at gunpoint?
Serb minority brought about their misfortune by themselves. They could enjoy all civil rights as all other minorities do but they decided otherwise.


Stalingrad? What about Dubrovnik? I thought all of you Ustasha loved your dear heroic defenders of Dubrovnik and their ceaseless courage against the JNA onslaught!!
1. Not even 1 political party is officially&sentimentally associated with ww2 nazi colaborator regime.
2. Defense of Dubrovnik is not much compared to that of Vukovar. There were like 3000 Croatian volunteers completely surrounded for 2 months fighting without any heavy weapons against some 30.000 elite JNA formations and Serb death squads. Entire city was leveled to ground because of shelling.
Take Debalcevo in Ukraine for comparison. Ukraine Army could field millions of soldiers, they had all heavy weaponry they needed there and fled in 10 days after being surrounded. Utter disgrace.


That's like someone from Florida telling me how horrible winters can be..
If you provoke war with Russia it is you who should go there dying, not me. Some of mine neighbor's ancestors left their bones in Stalingrad.


I recounted this thread to some of my relatives, who are oddly enough, also Hrvatski, and in general, their response was:
They wouldn't by any chance be descendants of nazi collaborators who fled, would they :):).
Just kidding.

Nickdfresh
03-10-2015, 09:25 AM
1. Sergeant Major is quite objective and reasonable is his statements, unlike gun-ho Nick here.

*** kisser :)


That's not the point. You don't mess with some1 or allies of some1 who has 10.000 nuclear/hydrogen warheads.


No, you just let them act like Nazis because they have nukes even though one has even more nukes than they do. You know? Like how the Ukrainians gave up their nukes in 1991 with guarantees from the West of their sovereignty against Soviet-Russian aggression? You think your brave, Hero of the Soviet Union Putin would be doing this if they still had nukes?


Is it ? You mean leader of neo-Nazi party (openly against Russian minority) becomes minister of Interior or defence ?

Which politicians and which parties? Weren't your Ustasha Parties EVEN WORSE than the Nazis in terms of their brutality? Wasn't there censorship and a banned cartoon featuring (sarcastically) "heroes of Croatia's past" rdiculing a policy of naming streets after Ustasha leaders by showing roadsigns like "Hitler Boulevard" and Goebbels Strasse?


Err, no they wouldn't.
Generally speaking, Russian military manufacturing capability overall outmaches anything in EU.

Specifically what? What do they manufacture and sell these days? Gas? T-90 tanks?

Feel free to elaborate on this...


a) You didn't save shit thank you very much. When (I would say foreign sponsored) war started in 1991 all UN did was impose arms embargo to Bosnia and Croatia effectively giving JNA go ahead. And you didn't arm any1.

You were trained and armed in 1995 for the blitz eastward by ex-U.S. Army and ex-officers from NATO armies. There were an awful lot of tanks and arms that came from somewhere. We didn't save you? Is your capital Belgrade?


b) Legally speaking, until Yugoslavia was officially disbanded and new Republics gained international recognition, JNA indeed was only legitimate military force (unfortunately fighting alongside Serbian extreme right formations).
c) Politicians of that time with similar democratic gung-ho attitude of yours brought hatred unimaginable only few years before in Ex-Yu. Same is happening in Ukraine. I saw that scenario already.

Strawman arguments...


I read all of Beevor's books and draw conclusions. Did you not notice how British and Canadian Army could not dislodge 12 SS Hitlerjugend for months in Caen but Russians annihilated 3 better SS divisions (alongside generally bigger Wehrmacht formations) in weeks in Austria&Budapest ? Ring a bell ?

Silly red herring arguments and comparisons. The Western Allies took France rapidly and could have driven deeply into Germany once the collapse of the Wehrmacht forces in the West took place after Cobra. They simply ran out of gas. The Red Army had a much shorter logistical chain, one based largely on American trucks...

Are you trying to imply that Russians are inherently better fighters or something? like the well over one million that surrendered in the initial German onslaught?


gun-ho presto democracy policy. Take a free tour from Libya-Syria-Iraq to Afganistan.

Or internet troll-strawman arguments that I never made :)



1. Stupid US official was obviously clear enough.

Which one? we have a lot of those so you'll have to be more specific...


2. It is clear that protesters were trained, armed and organized.

Maybe they went to protestor camp? or maybe they just had a lot of practice, like months of it?


3. Average of "Entire populace" elected Yanukovich in first place. How bout that sugar pops ? I didn't see 40 million Ukranians in Kiev. Just 10.000 armed, organized protesters with whom any decent police should have dealt with waiting regular elections, sparing Ukraine of civil war it allowed itself to get into.

Again strawman, Yanukovych was elected, but his popularity was well below 30% by the end and his regime was untenable. He lost even the Russo-centric Ukrainians that were his base of support to begin with...


4. All previous Ukraine govt. were obviously corrupt. Including legally elected Julia Timoschenko. Did you see any Russians rioting in Kiev square ?

They reached a tipping point though, although Ukraine is notoriously corrupt to this day...


5. I risk my logical reasoning with next statement. Putin have poisoned and killed his enemies to well being of Russia today. What is it ? Unemployment 5%, GDP 3 times as before him and foreign reserves highest ever. Yes, compared to all leaders before him in Russia, Putin is by far the best since Peter The Great. And he is not creating New World Order, unlike some.

Sounds sort of like another head of state. :)


1. True, Croatia helped out it's minority in Bosnia. Suspected war criminals are in Hague, (unlike any Americans who killed millions only in Vietnam). However, it never escalated to full scale ethnic cleansing Serbs carried out.

We didn't kill "millions" in Vietnam, the Vietnamese were pretty good at killing themselves, both sides...


2. I was not in Army and did not kill any1 nor do I spread wholesale hatred. However, "democratic" bribed politicians (by the west of course, not by Russia) brought about great misfortunes which many did not deserve. I am at least smart to see that. Almost same is happening in Ukraine.

So are you going to leave the evil Western, NATO-Croatian farce to live in Russia? Oh, yeah, their economy you gloat over is tanking...


You don't know bout New World Order ? The one ISIL is part of ?


Oh, now the conspiracy shit :mrgreen:


Serb minority brought about their misfortune by themselves. They could enjoy all civil rights as all other minorities do but they decided otherwise.

Some people deserve ethnic cleansing more than others I suppose. But they did reap the whirlwind...


1. Not even 1 political party is officially&sentimentally associated with ww2 nazi colaborator regime.
2. Defense of Dubrovnik is not much compared to that of Vukovar. There were like 3000 Croatian volunteers completely surrounded for 2 months fighting without any heavy weapons against some 30.000 elite JNA formations and Serb death squads. Entire city was leveled to ground because of shelling.
Take Debalcevo in Ukraine for comparison. Ukraine Army could field millions of soldiers, they had all heavy weaponry they needed there and fled in 10 days after being surrounded. Utter disgrace.

Um, there is much respect in the Russian-Ukrainian separatists for the fighting capacity of the Ukrainians, especially the ones that help out in the Donetsk Airport (or what's left of it) for months while virtually surrounded. They Ukrainian military is outdated and weakened through years of neglect. And "millions of men"? LOL really? They're struggling to get to 200,000. War costs money. You know, especially when your forces have an "arms embargo" against them, like the Ukrainians did...


If you provoke war with Russia it is you who should go there dying, not me. Some of mine neighbor's ancestors left their bones in Stalingrad.

But you're part of NATO now ;)

Nickdfresh
03-10-2015, 09:26 AM
Actually, Yanukovych was at less than 5% popularity at the end of his reign...

tankgeezer
03-10-2015, 11:29 AM
Quote from Witman111: "They wouldn't by any chance be descendants of nazi collaborators who fled, would they .
Just kidding. "
None of them are old enough to have been there at the time, but they did say that they would rather have been aligned with the Germans than to go mouth first (their words) into the steaming pile of Communism. (my words, as theirs were far more profane, if not more accurate. ) Personally, I have no business making a judgements about which old relatives did what, as my branch of the family left well before WW I and whatever fighting they may have done was under the Flag of the United States. Now while I have no business judging the remnant's choice of evils, I do not blame any that refused to bend over to the Soviets. And the present relatives have not changed their above opinions , and have enjoyed a good laugh. Perhaps you should try stand up comedy, maybe do a double act with Yakov Smirnoff.

JR*
03-16-2015, 07:09 AM
The BBC reports that, a few nights ago, Russian Television (proprietor, V. Putin) screened a documentary called "Crimea - the Road to the Motherland", recounting the glorious (recent) history of Russia's heroic (if illegal) annexation of the Crimea from Ukraine. The hero of this piece (naturally) was one V. Putin, who was projected as having been in full control of the situation from the beginning (very doubtful indeed). One interesting statement made by Putin in the course of an interview for the programme was that he had been ready to "bring Russia's nuclear arsenal to readiness" in defence of the rights of Russians in the Crimea. These Russians were, apparently, being repressed by evil Ukrainian neo-Nazis in the Crimea; Crimea had "always" been part of Russia (forget about the Crimean Tatars) and Putin had (so he says) been perfectly willing to power up his nukes to protect the interests of his Little Russian Brothers (not to mention of Russia) in the peninsula.

Bluster ? Certainly. To be ignored ? Not so sure. We had a number of blusterfests of this sort during Cold War I, of which the Cuban Missile Crisis was only the worst. The problem with this sort of bluster, in the presence of real, actual nukes, is that even if it is very carefully calculated, the poisonous, hostile nature of this sort of political poker game can easily result in one, or both principal players backing themselves in a political situation so dangerous that it would make the Strangelovian "Doomsday Machine" redundant. This very nearly happened in the Cuban Missile Crisis; only the dogged resilience of President Kennedy (who firmly resisted the adoption by the US of the "Jack D. Ripper" option) and the cleverness of the Soviets (willing to do a reasonable secret deal) may have saved the world from ... God knows what. In Putin's case, his interest in preserving his personal power in the face of a faltering economy makes stoking up Russian nationalism with such statements particularly dangerous. I am old enough to remember that this sort of megaphone diplomacy, combined with domestic propaganda, could leave a leader with his finger hovering dangerously over that "Little Red Button". Scary. I mean it - scary.

I suppose one thing half-good to come out of this is that it might wake up many younger Westerners, at least, to the fact that we are in the era of Cold War II. I doubt it, though. The era of Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) has no reality for many people much under 30 years of age, and many of their elders simply refuse to "go back there". And yet, the reality of MAD is still there. In spite of a degree of nuclear disarmament in recent decades, there are still quite enough nukes around to reduce the northern half of the globe to an irrevocably polluted cinder, and the globe as a whole to an ultra-toxic nuclear desert. Believe it or not.

One point - who was Putin thinking of as a target for his nukes ? Any of those available could have resulted in Obama's finger hovering nervously over his "Little Red Button". Answer on a postcard ... Yours from the War Room, JR.

JR*
03-16-2015, 08:31 AM
737673777378

Yeee - haw !!! JR.

Rising Sun*
03-16-2015, 08:32 AM
The BBC reports that, a few nights ago, Russian Television (proprietor, V. Putin) screened a documentary called "Crimea - the Road to the Motherland", recounting the glorious (recent) history of Russia's heroic (if illegal) annexation of the Crimea from Ukraine. The hero of this piece (naturally) was one V. Putin, who was projected as having been in full control of the situation from the beginning (very doubtful indeed). One interesting statement made by Putin in the course of an interview for the programme was that he had been ready to "bring Russia's nuclear arsenal to readiness" in defence of the rights of Russians in the Crimea. These Russians were, apparently, being repressed by evil Ukrainian neo-Nazis in the Crimea; Crimea had "always" been part of Russia (forget about the Crimean Tatars) and Putin had (so he says) been perfectly willing to power up his nukes to protect the interests of his Little Russian Brothers (not to mention of Russia) in the peninsula.

Bluster ? Certainly. To be ignored ? Not so sure. We had a number of blusterfests of this sort during Cold War I, of which the Cuban Missile Crisis was only the worst. The problem with this sort of bluster, in the presence of real, actual nukes, is that even if it is very carefully calculated, the poisonous, hostile nature of this sort of political poker game can easily result in one, or both principal players backing themselves in a political situation so dangerous that it would make the Strangelovian "Doomsday Machine" redundant. This very nearly happened in the Cuban Missile Crisis; only the dogged resilience of President Kennedy (who firmly resisted the adoption by the US of the "Jack D. Ripper" option) and the cleverness of the Soviets (willing to do a reasonable secret deal) may have saved the world from ... God knows what. In Putin's case, his interest in preserving his personal power in the face of a faltering economy makes stoking up Russian nationalism with such statements particularly dangerous. I am old enough to remember that this sort of megaphone diplomacy, combined with domestic propaganda, could leave a leader with his finger hovering dangerously over that "Little Red Button". Scary. I mean it - scary.

I suppose one thing half-good to come out of this is that it might wake up many younger Westerners, at least, to the fact that we are in the era of Cold War II. I doubt it, though. The era of Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) has no reality for many people much under 30 years of age, and many of their elders simply refuse to "go back there". And yet, the reality of MAD is still there. In spite of a degree of nuclear disarmament in recent decades, there are still quite enough nukes around to reduce the northern half of the globe to an irrevocably polluted cinder, and the globe as a whole to an ultra-toxic nuclear desert. Believe it or not.

One point - who was Putin thinking of as a target for his nukes ? Any of those available could have resulted in Obama's finger hovering nervously over his "Little Red Button". Answer on a postcard ... Yours from the War Room, JR.

No disagreement (I recall sitting in a schoolyard during the Cuban Missile Crisis aged about 12 discussing with another kid whether we'd see the missiles coming or just get vaporised without warning), but here's a tangential thought.

Vlad the Inhaler is gung ho about reclaiming the old Russian Empire (how quaint to see the toy soldiers opening the big doors in the ornate palace for the former KGB committed communist), and generally pissing off just about everyone except Russians nostalgic for the old Russian and or Soviet empire. Meanwhile China retains a curious mix of Communist Party control of a vibrant capitalist economy which, relative to Russia, just steams on to bigger and better things without any of the internal or external problems besetting Putin's dictatorship.

China has at least as many problems of diverse cultures, religions and desires for independence in various regions as would Russia if it could recapture its old empire but, even allowing for China being no less oppressive than Russia, China has undoubtedly maintained greater harmony in, or at least control of, those potentially difficult regions.

The paradox is that Russia as a former communist state turned nominally capitalist is considerably less successful as a capitalist state than China is under what remains as old style, albeit modified, communist party control of rampant capitalism.

Name five items in any major store you go to which are made in, or emanate from, Russia. Probably zero.

Compare that with most of everything else, much of which comes from China.

I'd suggest that this indicates that apart from exploitation of some easy resources such as gas to Western Europe, Russia doesn't really have a sustainable economy based on production and trade, while China does.

Russia ends up being a kleptocracy to benefit the dictator and oligarchs which tends towards stagnation which can be corrected only by grabbing more productive territory, such as the food bowl Ukraine, while China becomes a major international trader able to trade with the rest of the world on terms profitable to both.

So, is Vlad just reclaiming the Russian empire out of ancient pride, or grabbing the Crimea and Ukraine out of necessity to prop up a Russian economy which is essentially a Ponzi scheme?

witman111
04-01-2015, 02:14 AM
Perfect analogy JR, I congratulate you.

Rising Sun has surely been critical of recent US policy which was carried out to "hijack" world resources for benefit of... dollar. for dollars you can buy oil ... and who prints dollars ? FED.
That uncle Vlad is NOT doing, going around globe, establishing monopolies and "crony" so called "democratic" colonies with aircraft carriers.

I am amazed none of you see that Russians today live much better than EVER before. BDP - highest ever, personal income - highest ever, unemployment level - lowest ever, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GDP_of_Russia_since_1989.svg

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/russia/unemployment-rate

NONE of this would have happened if Putin was not in pover. You would still have various Khodorkovki's grabbing all the profits from Russian resources for themselves and leaving others to starve and vanish in unemployment. Yes, Putin is Russian hero. And rightfully so.
Russian is still very much socialist country, where "haves" subsidize "have-nots" and that suits Russians fine. They still have far better standard of living than Chinese.



No, you just let them act like Nazis because they have nukes even though one has even more nukes than they do. You know? Like how the Ukrainians gave up their nukes in 1991 with guarantees from the West of their sovereignty against Soviet-Russian aggression? You think your brave, Hero of the Soviet Union Putin would be doing this if they still had nukes?


This is just bout only argument you have. Yes, Putin broke international law and would not attack Ukraine had it had nuclear arsenal. However, west had brought Ukraine revolution not Russia. Russia respected Ms. Timoschenko's election before Yanukovich.



Which politicians and which parties? Weren't your Ustasha Parties EVEN WORSE than the Nazis in terms of their brutality?

Europe certainly saw it's share of massacres. Which kinda falls in comparison to what happened in Hiroshima and Nagasaki where you pulverized everything from humans to bacteria.



Specifically what? What do they manufacture and sell these days? Gas? T-90 tanks?

They make some of best class IV jet fighters. T-90 is by no means obsolete it has reactive armor and all necessary bells and whistles. Not to mention something like this
http://www.businessinsider.com/plans-for-russias-t-14-armata-tank-2015-3
Germans had slightly better tanks, did they win ? No. Russian manufacturing capability did. Which it has to this day.



You were trained and armed in 1995 for the blitz eastward by ex-U.S. Army and ex-officers from NATO armies. There were an awful lot of tanks and arms that came from somewhere. We didn't save you?

Like I said, you didn't save no1 in Croatia 1991 and no1 in Bosnia in 1995. You may have saved some in Kosovo 1999.



Are you trying to imply that Russians are inherently better fighters or something? like the well over one million that surrendered in the initial German onslaught?


Yes, I DO. Russians developed specific sort of patriotism which fueled their anger at Germans so they did not count their losses much. In 1944 I would say Russia had best strategic and tactical generals in world.
They crushed hundreds of German divisions who resisted desperately not to let Russians over Oder river not surrendering like ones in west hoping for Americans to arrive as soon as possible. French crushed none in 1941 and English crushed almost none in Africa 1942, Rommel run out of supplies there. Italians don't count.



Or internet troll-strawman arguments that I never made

7390



We didn't kill "millions" in Vietnam, the Vietnamese were pretty good at killing themselves, both sides...

Yes you did. Not to mention stuff like agent orange...



But you're part of NATO now

I am smart enough not to play war for Wall street gangsters.



Oh, now the conspiracy shit


Creation of "world government" and "world laws" is continuous process which robes countries of their sovereignty. In trade and economy it is complete (NAFTA, WTO, EU). In political sense it near completion (EU, UN).
You have security council deciding whether is it right to attack some country or not. Are you shitting me ?

Cojimar 1945
11-04-2015, 03:59 PM
One point that is relevant is that the Germans seem to have resisted the Soviets with much greater determination than the western allies. They seem to have been more reluctant to surrender on the eastern front.