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JR*
09-15-2014, 08:18 AM
:tank:Events of the past week or so have suggested that the "international community" has begun, belatedly, to recognize the danger posed, not just to regional, but to global stability by the emergence of the loony Jihadist, but well-organized "Islamic State". Today, Secretary of State Kerry is presiding over a meeting (in balmy Paris) of ill-sorted Foreign Ministers in an attempt to tape together some sort of "coalition of the willing" to oppose the anal-retentive towel-headed hordes. Initial indications is that the effectiveness of the proposed coalition is likely to be somewhat limited. In Iraq, the "boots on the ground" bit will be left, apparently, to the discredited Iraqi army (which seriously needs to be rebuilt - again). There are vague indications that some other regional states may be willing to conduct air strikes on Caliphist targets in Iraq, "subject to the approval of the (new and untried) Iraqi government. There are also vague references to "other measures" (presumably in the areas of finance and trade). So far, there is little to cause the nutters to shake in their sandals. Perhaps they may be a little puzzled by the apparent willingness of fellow Wahhabi believers, Saudi Arabia and Qatar, to conduct bombing raids on their Iraqi territory while still funding them ... but that is hardly unusual in that part of the world.

Then there is the little matter of Syria. No official voice is talking about bombing Islamic State targets there. The Assad regime itself has indicated that it would regard such operations over its territory as an affront to Syrian sovereignty, and a matter for war. They would, in all probability, be willing to do some sort of "co-belligerency" deal with the "coalition" - but the latter is clearly repelled by the political (not to mention moral) compromise that this would involve; "shake hands with the Devil" comes to mind. And that is not to mention Iran. Iran has enough boots on the ground to wipe out a bag of Caliphates, but the moral and political compromise involved in sanctioning (let alone encouraging) direct Iranian involvement is clearly beyond Mr Kerry's capacity, in any case.

Some things are clear enough. First, the so-called Caliphate is, at present, amply funded. Even (and, given the duplicitous parties involved) this is unlikely, the Saudis and Qataris cut off funds, the Islamic State is now generating enormous revenues from a combination of surreptitious oil sales, as well as its traditional sources of protection rackets, downright robbery, pseudo-taxation in their territories, and various forms of extortion. Presumably, they are less likely to be involved in drugs and prostitution - putting them on the same point of the moral compass as Don Vito Corleone, but more profitable.

Secondly, they are not exactly short of recruits. Even if one does not accept the propagandistically-motivated "Intellegence" extimates circulated in recent days of anything up to 50,000 IS fighters under arms, the total is obviously considerable - perhaps 15,000 to 20,000. This cannot be put down to the much-publicized, but actually pretty paltry, flow of "western" Jihadists to the Cause. The actuality is that the IS could not be holding its current territory unless it had recruited a substantial number of Syrians and Iraqis, of which many of the latter would have a degree (sometimes a substantial degree) of military education. Unless effective action is taken soon to deflate the IS balloon, this situation can only get worse.

Thirdly, air strikes (let alone France's recon missions, just announced) and "other measures" will not do the business - especially if they exclude IS territory in Syria. Knocking out the IS - at least in the short term, in which it can certainly do damage - will take boots on the ground. Nobody can reasonably attach blame to the reluctance of the US and Britain to commit troops in view of their recent sacrifices (however ill-conceived) in Iraq and Afghanistan. But what does this leave ? Well, what it leaves, mainly, is the ramshackle Iraqi army, the non-IS Syrian rebels (including Al-Nusra, who have no love of the IS) and ... Iran. What chance of any effective force crafted out of this ménage even being sanctioned by the "coalition" ? Not much, I suspect.

With the Caliphists, apparently, in the process of crafting a rudimentary state structure across a large part of Syria and Iraq, the problem of the IS really does require an urgent response from the "international community". Regrettably, it is difficult to see one coming. Maybe they should hand the whole matter over to the World Intellectual Property Organization - it only takes them a decade or two to fail to agree a Treaty ...

Yours from a nice restaurant in Geneva, eating sauerkraut, JR.:army:

Rising Sun*
09-19-2014, 08:13 AM
ISIL is obviously a problem, and one which extends well beyond its self-proclaimed caliphate as recent events here show: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-pacific/2014/09/australia-makes-raids-foil-violent-acts-201491834852407966.html

I'm all in favour of killing every one of them and everyone that looks like them, but unless the West is prepared for once in its pusillanimous post-WWII life to wage total war, that ain't gonna happen.

So we let these bastards run wild, and make them wilder by half-hearted attempts at ineffective intervention, consistently undermined by the West's mindless support for Israel, a tiny piece of land and people of no strategic or economic importance to the West.

Meanwhile the West supports Saudi Arabia, a duplicitous medieval oddity happily supplied with lots of oil while craftily sponsoring the likes of Al Qaeda, ISIL etc as their primitive Islam is closer to that which exists in Saudi Arabia than in other more moderate predominantly Islamic nations such as Turkey and Indonesia.

There are no solutions to these issues as long as the West fails to recognise that its choices are total war or gradual subordination to the will and actions of the likes of ISIL.

We are in the early stages of a conflict which will go down the centuries, unless it is nipped in the bud.

As for nipping it in the bud, the Middle East and related areas such as the various Stans are venomous shitholes of infinite depth and unfathomable intrigue informed by tribalism and primitive, ignorant sectarianism favouring various brands of Islam and violent interpretations of the Koran (although they could get the same from the Old Testament). Pretty much where Europe spent a few centuries in sectarian wars after Henry VIII couldn't divorce and was too stupid just to take a mistress.

Meanwhile we now have academic geniuses researching and advising governments on how to stop this by engaging with these thugs. Clearly not academics who have ever spent a bit of time with seriously violent people who enjoy violence for its own sake, and who are beyond redemption. If these academics could change things, we could have parachuted a few of them into Germany and Japan in WWII so they could convert the Nazis and Banzai / Kamikaze types into gentle pacifists and brought the war to an early end with no bloodshed. What a bunch of ivory tower wankers!

There is no solution to the current problem, but exhaustion of blood over time.

Let the endless killing and misery proceed. :(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(

JR*
09-19-2014, 08:57 AM
God, yes - this Australian affair. It would be easy, in a world dominated (at least in the West) by liberal media to dismiss this as some sort of antipodean panic but ... I have to say that someone living in an area of Dublin with a substantial Muslim (Pakistani, Bengali) immigrant population, and two mosques within five minutes walk of me (the CIA has identified the one just around the corner as the most radical mosque in Ireland), and in spite of all my liberal conditioning, I find it hard to treat the matter so lightly. Not least because of the ample evidence that IS is perfectly willing to approve such actions ...

Mentioning the Caliphate - I notice that we do not hear too much about this from IS at the moment. I suspect that declaring a Caliphate, and Al-Baghdadi as Caliph, was a serious tactical mistake. A tiny proportion of the Sunni Muslim population will approve; however, the vast majority will cry "blasphemy". For myself, I have long been aware of this problem facing would-be Caliphs; strange that IS do not seem to have been sensitive to the drawbacks of any early proclamation of a "Caliph". One vaguely hopeful aspect of this situation is that "Caliph" Al-Baghdadi seems to be the type of megalomanic psychopath more likely to lead IS in the direction of becoming a good, old-fashioned cult than an enduring revolutionary entity. He has form here. Even before his "elevation", he alienated the important Syrian fundamentalist army, Al-Nusra (who are currently holding a number of Fijian UN soldiers as hostages on the Golan Heights) not so much by being too extreme (as has been suggested) but by declaring a takeover of Al-Nusra by IS without so much as a by-your-leave. This has, apparently, left Al-Nusra and its "spiritual" inspiration, Al-Quaeda, very unhappy with the "Caliph" and his followers. They may yet start to shoot each other ... Yours from the Old Bazaar in Cairo, under a basketful of hot chilies, JR.

Rising Sun*
09-19-2014, 09:50 AM
God, yes - this Australian affair. It would be easy, in a world dominated (at least in the West) by liberal media to dismiss this as some sort of antipodean panic but ... I have to say that someone living in an area of Dublin with a substantial Muslim (Pakistani, Bengali) immigrant population, and two mosques within five minutes walk of me (the CIA has identified the one just around the corner as the most radical mosque in Ireland), and in spite of all my liberal conditioning, I find it hard to treat the matter so lightly. Not least because of the ample evidence that IS is perfectly willing to approve such actions ...

The current Australian allegations (allowing for the fact that our security agencies have form for being hopelessly incompetent in at least one previous grand capture - with much initial shameless and woefully wrong media propaganda from them - of a supposed terrorist) are, to me, less worrying than the eternal duplicity of significant elements of the local Muslim population. There has been far too much of the "I condemn them" public statements by Islamic leaders disproved by later contradictory statements to their own flock in their mosques and elsewhere.

Then again, perhaps it's not much different from the hostility and idiotic rumours about Catholics which were routinely propagated by the Protestant majority in my childhood here in the 1950s and teens in the 1960s. There comes a time when moronic assertions about tunnels between the presbytery and convent, and sacrificing infants on the altar in the dead of night, become somewhat tiresome. For a start, the priests were too busy fu*king the altar boys to dig tunnels to the convent. Meanwhile, the priests weren't slow to preach politics from the pulpit, and in private,

The difference is that many Muslims seem to work on the basis that they will align themselves with their sworn Muslim enemies (e.g. Sunni and Shia) against any perceived threat to any Muslim from outside. Which, of course, is entirely consistent with Islam.

What these fu*kwits fail to admit, or are incapable of recognising due to terminal stupidity clouded by unfounded paranoia, is that, in their tedious moaning about the West and infidels / kaffirs oppressing Muslims, the vast bulk of Muslims oppressed and killed are oppressed and killed by other Muslims. Such as ISIL carving a swathe of death and rape through the areas it takes. Not to mention other events like the Iran / Iraq War.

There is another interpretation of these movements, which is that Islam is peripheral to quests for power, much as communism was peripheral to quests for power in various, essentially nationalistic, movements in South East Asia and South America in the latter part of the 20th century, all resolutely and ignorantly opposed by the US and its allies to their cost.

Perhaps the real problem is the sense of oppression and exploitation by local and Western interests which energises the likes of ISIL, or at least some of their less rabid supporters. Perhaps if these issues were addressed and resolved it might be more productive, and more rapidly so, than just killing people.

Even if that is a partial solution, the biggest obstacle is the regimes which exist in Muslim nations. They are, without exception, oppressive and exploitative.

Which has nothing to do with the West, except to the extent that that West exploits those nations through those regimes for the West's benefit.

But the fact remains that the problems are in Muslim nations.

And, alas, the Arab Spring seems generally only to have made them worse.

JR*
09-30-2014, 08:58 AM
In spite of the "coalition's" aerial bombardment, the real threat from the "Islamic State" seems as effective as ever. I recall noting, in the early stages of its major campaign in Iraq, that IS had outflanked the city of Baghdad - to the east but, more threatening, to the west, where they occupy a strong base in the city of Falluja. Simple military logic might have suggested that IS should have attacked the city immediately - but they did not, probably in part for logistical reasons, and also in part owing to a reluctance to entangle themselves in a Shi'ite city that could have become an Iraqi Stalingrad for them.

Now, the IS forces centred on Falluja are attacking towards Baghdad. Whether they intend to enter the city must be open to some question. Baghdad remains a substantially Shi'ite city and, for obvious reasons, the majority of the inhabitants would be likely to fight to the death to resist IS incursions. However, should the Iraqi army's defence of the city break down (all too likely, on previous evidence), the result could easily be general panic in Baghdad, and substantial internecine conflict between Sunni and Shia citizens. This may be the real objective of the IS attack.

The hapless Iraqi army still appears incapable of standing up to the IS looneys - they are still in the field between Falluja and Baghdad only through the intervention of "coalition" air strikes, that limit IS movements during the day in particular. Yet the IS fighters show no signs of actually pulling back. The essential "boots on the ground" element is again proving ineffective. Meanwhile, the air campaign - being conducted against both IS and anti-IS groups - (al-Nusra, for example) -daily increases the possibility of "revenge" outrages by Islamaniacs in countries involved in the "coalition"; and even many who are not, but which are simply "western". ...

Can anybody suggest a sensible solution to this mess ? Yours from Saddam City, JR.

Rising Sun*
09-30-2014, 09:57 AM
In spite of the "coalition's" aerial bombardment, the real threat from the "Islamic State" seems as effective as ever. I recall noting, in the early stages of its major campaign in Iraq, that IS had outflanked the city of Baghdad - to the east but, more threatening, to the west, where they occupy a strong base in the city of Falluja. Simple military logic might have suggested that IS should have attacked the city immediately - but they did not, probably in part for logistical reasons, and also in part owing to a reluctance to entangle themselves in a Shi'ite city that could have become an Iraqi Stalingrad for them.

Now, the IS forces centred on Falluja are attacking towards Baghdad. Whether they intend to enter the city must be open to some question. Baghdad remains a substantially Shi'ite city and, for obvious reasons, the majority of the inhabitants would be likely to fight to the death to resist IS incursions. However, should the Iraqi army's defence of the city break down (all too likely, on previous evidence), the result could easily be general panic in Baghdad, and substantial internecine conflict between Sunni and Shia citizens. This may be the real objective of the IS attack.

The hapless Iraqi army still appears incapable of standing up to the IS looneys - they are still in the field between Falluja and Baghdad only through the intervention of "coalition" air strikes, that limit IS movements during the day in particular. Yet the IS fighters show no signs of actually pulling back. The essential "boots on the ground" element is again proving ineffective. Meanwhile, the air campaign - being conducted against both IS and anti-IS groups - (al-Nusra, for example) -daily increases the possibility of "revenge" outrages by Islamaniacs in countries involved in the "coalition"; and even many who are not, but which are simply "western". ...

Can anybody suggest a sensible solution to this mess ? Yours from Saddam City, JR.

There is no sensible solution to a problem which is senseless, any more than there is or was a sensible solution to another rabid death cult which got its jollies from flying planes into the twin towers, to no real benefit to their cause and without any demands for anything to stop more attacks.

The only solution is to wipe the bastards out which, alas, merely energises more religiously inspired or deranged people to flock to the cause to defend it. So, wiping them out is a grand aim, but probably not achievable.

As for air strikes, they are puny and ineffective so far.

The West and its fragile Arab allies are just nibbling around the edges of IS, all being hamstrung by various domestic and wider political and other restraints.

That is not to say that there cannot be a useful and effective response to IS.

Gulf War I showed how to do that with great effect from the air, plus the wisdom of not becoming an occupying force.

Which wisdom was lost on Bush the Younger and later Western leaders who seem to regard Vietnam as the inspirational "must follow" manual on "How to damage your nation by foolishly repeating past avoidable military and political disasters, for Dummies".

Alas, Gulf War I was fought at a time before the US and its allies had worn out their electorates with their ill-conceived invasions and occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, which now resonates with political determination not to have "boots on the ground".

I don't recall any significant war being won without boots on the ground.

If the Syrians with their supposedly excellent boots on the ground and air forces and the Iraqis with their forces brilliantly trained by the West after it destroyed and dismantled their former forces can't fight IS on the ground, then why not just let the bastards fail?

Sooner or later IS will come up against Iran, which is a more formidable foe, and even sooner against Turkey, which is also more formidable.

Why get upset about a few beheadings? Western governments didn't do anything to stop far worse conduct in various parts of the world even when they could, from Partition in India to Rawanda to Bosnia, despite grand posturing at times.

Anyway, it's all Turkey's fault. Had Turkey held on to the Ottoman Empire during WWI to now, none of this would have happened. Turkey deserves to deal with it. ;)

JR*
10-01-2014, 07:30 AM
Latest news is that the Turks do appear to be preparing to take a more active part. Unfortunately, they are caught between a number of restraints. First, they are ill-placed to cosy up to their obvious local allies - the Kurds - against whose insurgency they have been waging a savage war for decades. Secondly, they have understandable concern that taking positive action against IS would promote IS support in eastern Turkey. As against that - thirdly, the activities of the looneys has inflicted a refugee crisis (largely Kurdish) of monstrous proportions that threatens to become unmanageable. What to do ? Answers on a postcard to the Office of the President, Ankara, Turkey ... Yours from the Walls of Byzantium, JR.

Rising Sun*
10-01-2014, 08:14 AM
Latest news is that the Turks do appear to be preparing to take a more active part. Unfortunately, they are caught between a number of restraints. First, they are ill-placed to cosy up to their obvious local allies - the Kurds - against whose insurgency they have been waging a savage war for decades. Secondly, they have understandable concern that taking positive action against IS would promote IS support in eastern Turkey. As against that - thirdly, the activities of the looneys has inflicted a refugee crisis (largely Kurdish) of monstrous proportions that threatens to become unmanageable. What to do ? Answers on a postcard to the Office of the President, Ankara, Turkey ... Yours from the Walls of Byzantium, JR.

Which exemplifies the essential problem, being the absence of any common aim and the presence of conflicting aims and interests of the various nations, factions, brands of Islam, independence movements, rebel armies etc etc etc.

These long standing aspects of the cauldron which is the Middle East in general and the Arab / Muslim elements of it in particular, ably assisted by the festering contributions of Israel, ensure that no effective and enduring strategy will be developed or pursued by the locals, or by the Western idiots who can't stop themselves interfering in a hopeless struggle which will always, in the end, be undermined by some or all of the locals whether by betrayal, incompetence, cowardice or clever strategy.

The only consistent post-WWII winners have been Israel and Saudi Arabia, both of which foment problems in the region and the wider world at opposite ends of the scale, and both of which are enthusiastically supported by the idiotic major Western powers.

Answer on a postcard to the offices of the US President; British Prime Minister; and sundry associates in their coalition against whatever it is they are currently coalescing against: Wake up, d*ckheads! You've been played on a break for the past seven decades by a bunch of Semites (Arab and Jewish) and Muslims who are profoundly smarter than you in sucking you in to conflicts they have no intention of stopping until one of the contestants has vanquished the other. Or, in other and most cases, because the West is profoundly stupid in getting itself involved in conflicts which often arise from the long standing and justifiable local resentment towards the West generated by the arrogance of the West as colonial powers in previously carving up the Middle East for its own purposes and, subsequently, interfering intermittently in its affairs when it suited the West for its own interests but without any clear or noble aim or conduct which might encourage support for the West as an advocate for or defender of the legitimate aims and desires of the locals.

For a change, the West should stay out of fights that don't concern it directly, and which waste its military resources, the lives of its service people, and its already poor reputation in those regions to no advantage to any in the West.

This is a case of the peacemaker being turned on by the contestants. Just stand back, cordon and blockade risks emanating from those regions, and let them slug it out and exhaust themselves.

Yeah, sure, it's a major travesty of human rights, but so have been countless other instances since the UN was established on noble principles which it failed to enforce.

Oops!

Sorry.

I forgot that some of these places have oil.

Notably IS in growing quantities. The last thing the West wants is to have these bastards dictate the price of oil if they continue their expansion.

JR*
10-02-2014, 05:37 AM
Bring back the Ottoman Empire ? Well, no ... but it is interesting to reflect that, while the Grand Turk controlled most of the Dar-al-Islam directly or indirectly, internal strife within that area was generally fairly minimal. One issue solved (at least to its own satisfaction) by the Sublime Porte was the question of the Caliphate; the Grand Turk was Caliph, and that was that. Modern-day Muslims of all stripes - including IS - are quite correct in pointing out that this appropriation of the Caliphate was completely lacking in credibility from the point of view of Muslim tradition. However, this seems to have caused little trouble at the time. Ottoman rule was, for the late-Middle Ages and early modern period, relatively mild both in Turkish areas, and in areas occupied by non-Turks, at least once it had become established. However, this did not extend to direct challenges to the Emperor or his government. Anybody daring to question something like the right of the Emperor to be Caliph was likely to end up with their head on a stake - that is, if they were lucky. One of the problems facing modern Caliphists is that the discontinuity in the succession of Caliphs and would-be Caliphs created by the Ottoman period is that, while the Caliphate issue remains central in Muslim thinking (responsible, as it is, for matters so important as the Sunni/Shia schism), the Ottoman interruption has left Islam with no credible "legitimate" claimant to the dignity. This, I think, is why IS has lately been playing down al-Baghdadi's self-declaration to the Caliphate; it is repugnant to the vast, vast majority of Muslims, and now the looneys know it.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, journalists reporting from Turkey detect a distinct suspicion and hostility among Kurdish refugees towards the Turks. Many appear to be convinced that IS came into existence with Turkish help (probably true), and Turkey is quite happy to see Kurdish forces and IS at each other's throats on the basis that this will result in a weakening of their long-time Kurdish enemies. I doubt whether this point of view is fairly reflective of the Turkish government's views; IS in its present form is much too dangerous to Turkey for such a simplistic view to hold sway. However, its existence and currency is scarcely promising from the viewpoint of those who hope to see Turkey and proto-Kurdistan co-operating as "boots on the ground" in Syria and Iraq. Yours from the foxholes of Falluja, JR.

Rising Sun*
10-03-2014, 09:05 AM
The Iraqi government, and much of Iraq, will shut down for next week for the religious festival of Eid.

Given how successful IS has been in its military and funding advances, Iraq taking a holiday now is about the equivalent of the US taking a week off for Christmas in Guadalcanal in 1942 and during the Battle of the Bulge in 1944, thus allowing the Japanese and Germans respectively to attack and change the course of those campaigns.

If Iraq can shut down for a week, clearly it's not facing a serious threat from IS. In which case it doesn't need Western or any other military support.

Or, if Iraq is facing such a threat, it's not worth other nations supporting a government, people and nation which can take a week off for a religious festival while they expect people from other nations to risk their lives to protect a bunch of holidaymakers (and military deserters who won't fight for their own country, who presumably will also be on holiday).

All of which reinforces my view that the Middle East in general is a tribal and religious shithole of unfathomable depth and best quarantined to let the locals pursue their quaint destructive ways.

Oops!

I forgot the oil thingy, again.

Without which the Middle East (excluding Israel) would be as irrelevant to the rest of the world as is, say, the ebola tragedy unfolding in West Africa and the long history of other post-WWII tragedies, oppression, and genocides in sub-Saharan, and North, Africa which the rest of the world, and the West in particular, observed without doing much or anything to help.

JR*
10-08-2014, 09:11 AM
The IS looneys appear to be on the brink of capturing the northern Syrian city of Kobani. Kurdish soldiers are fighting bravely to defend what remains of the city, but they are impeded by deficiencies in equipment, as compared with their adversaries. A recent news report revealed that one of the Kurds' problems is their lack of night vision equipment - IS has no shortage of night vision equipment; they have obtained this as captured US gear from US supplies to the Iriqi "army". Also, there are reports of Abrams tanks among the IS armoured forces, again captured from the Iraqi excuse for an army. Meanwhile, the Turkish Army deploys within a kilometer of all this, with its tanks pointing in the direction of the conflict.

I fully understand the complexity of the situation facing Turkey. Also, I am not wholly convinced by the argument that the loss of Kobani to IS would be a "strategic" defeat for the anti-IS "coalition". However, Turkey's position at present time appears to be that weakening the Kurdish forces is a priority over eliminating IS. Do they really regard IS as a preferable immediate neighbor to a Kurdish automous area ? How many beheadings are they happy to witness before they get over their historical hostility to the Kurds ? Is there any way that supporting the Kurds in this conflict could be integrated in the current Turkish President's "peace process" with the Kurds ? Answers on a postcard to the Office of the President, Ankara ... JR

JR*
10-09-2014, 05:56 AM
Hard to find much humour in the horror that is the Islamic State, but then again ...

A BBC reporter recently interviewed a resident of Mosul who escaped (most of the population of this large city appear at this stage to have fled, one way or another). One of the things he told her was that the electricity and water supplies of the city had been damaged during the series of assaults by former Iraqi "Ba'athist" troops and the IS. Once the dust (and rolling heads) had settled, this gentleman and some fellow residents went to the new IS rulers, asking when the air conditioning and running water were going to come back on, life in a large modern city in a hot zone being rather difficult without them. The answer from the IS leaders was that the Prophet (Blessings and Peace be upon Him) did not have such conveniences in his day, so they would have to do without them. Presumably, nobody in the delegation was rash enough to ask whether this line of thinking should also apply in relation to modern firerams and pickup trucks, not to mention looted Humvees, tanks and the cash reserves of the Bank of Iraq in Mosul. More likely, it was at that moment that they began to focus on the road to Turkey.

Speaking of things looted - another refugee, this time an escapee from embattled Kobani, told the reporter that, among the usual old Russian tanks of the Iraqi Army taking part in the IS attack on the city was at least one US Abrams. He also told her that one of the difficulties faced by the Kurdish and Turkish defenders of the city was the lack of night vision equipment - an inconvenience not suffered by the IS attackers, who were plentifully supplied with such equipment, like the tanks, "liberated" by IS when the Iraqi Army ran away from places like Mosul. They didn't stop at rifles and Humvees.

Hard to know whether to laugh or cry. Or, then again, maybe not. At the risk of offending the Sons of the Prophet (Blessings and Peace be upon Him), Jesus wept ... Best regards, JR.:mad::tank:

Rising Sun*
10-09-2014, 08:42 AM
The IS looneys appear to be on the brink of capturing the northern Syrian city of Kobani. Kurdish soldiers are fighting bravely to defend what remains of the city, but they are impeded by deficiencies in equipment, as compared with their adversaries. A recent news report revealed that one of the Kurds' problems is their lack of night vision equipment - IS has no shortage of night vision equipment; they have obtained this as captured US gear from US supplies to the Iriqi "army". Also, there are reports of Abrams tanks among the IS armoured forces, again captured from the Iraqi excuse for an army. Meanwhile, the Turkish Army deploys within a kilometer of all this, with its tanks pointing in the direction of the conflict.

The poor bloody Kurds are used to it.

Bush Snr encouraged them to rise up after GW1 and, when they did, let the poor bastards fight on their own against Saddam, as a result of which they were subjected to massacres. Disgraceful and disgusting conduct by America, and its allies in that conflict.

Current event is just another example of forces which could alter events standing by and watching because either their nation doesn't care to get involved or because it suits their nation's purpose to let the slaughter proceed. The latter in Turkey's case.

If there is anything funny or, more accurately, distressingly ironic in the current IS matters, it is the wonder of the Muslims supposedly oppressed by the West sorting out the problem by slaughtering each other or standing by and watching other Muslims slaughter each other, which somehow is still the West's fault, as strongly expressed by one of our Australian Muslim IS supporters last night: http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/lateline-host-emma-albericis-only-regret-over-hizb-uttahrir-interview-20141009-113sgr.html

This closet terrorist undid in a few televised minutes the great deal of good work done by numerous local Muslims who and Muslim organisations which have unequivocally condemned IS and its ilk recently.

The non-Muslim morons in Australia, who are plentiful, will of course view that closet terrorist as emblematic of the duplicity and hypocrisy of all Muslims in Australia rather than those Muslims who have been trying to distance themselves from IS.

Sometimes I wonder whether our free society would be better off being less free, starting with not giving closet terrorists and IS beheading videos etc any publicity.

JR*
11-26-2014, 05:50 AM
Pity the citizens of Raqqa, Syria, claimed by ISIS as the "capital" of their "Caliphate". Not only do the poor buggers have to live with ISIS, but now they are being bombed by both the US-led "coalition" and by Assad's Syrian air force. If ever there was proof that Life isn't Fair ... Yours from a sandy basement somewhere, JR.

JR*
12-03-2014, 05:17 AM
Latest from the BBC - it appears that the Iranians have stoked up the boilers in their old F-4 Phantoms and are now bombing ISIS targets in areas of eastern Iraqi airspace "under their control". Of course, both the US and the Iranians deny that they have in any way co-ordinated in relation to aerial operations over Iraq - a case, perhaps, of "Ayatollah, don't Khomeini closer ..." - or at least not yet. Pity any poor bloody civilians remaining in ISIS controlled areas. Depending on their location, they could now be blasted by "allied", Syrian government or Iranian aircraft or, in some cases, possibly by all three. Fair to say that ISIS no longer seem to be making much in the lines of territorial gains; no sign of them going away, however, and I am not sure that the intervention of the Mad Mullahs of Tehran promises much improvement ... Yours from a bomb crater, somewhere near Mosul, JR.

JR*
12-04-2014, 05:33 AM
McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom fighter bombers of the Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force (IRIAF) in formation over the Persian Gulf (maritime patrol is an explicit function allocated to the IRIAF Phantom units). One analyst I heard yesterday opined that these aircraft - which are some 40 years old, having been supplied to the late and unlamented Shah by the US - no longer have supersonic capacity, and lack up-to-date "smart" weapons systems. I would still not care to be bombed by one ... Yours from the Land of the Mullahs, JR.

7260

Rising Sun*
12-04-2014, 07:23 AM
I would still not care to be bombed by one

Me neither.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8M-29w1PHI

Couldn't do most of that now: https://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v2_rul_rule84

Oddly enough, can't find the bit in the Geneva Conventions which outlaws beheadings by large scale criminal gangs, nor anything which protects civilian populations from the depredations of such criminal gangs, although the criminal gangs of ISIS are pretty much protected from being napalmed as the bastards do like to hide in civilian communities rather than go into the field on their own.

Wonder if ISIS thugs are sufficiently aware of history in their region to see the irony that the Egyptian goddess Isis was a goddess of goodness, a sort of BC (or BCE for modern PC pedants) overall mythical motherhood statement?

JR*
12-04-2014, 08:16 AM
Regarding the Geneva Convention (and other relevant international agreements), I am pretty sure that the Islamic State has not adhered to any of them. Regarding the Goddess Isis - very well aware of her myself; Egyptology was one of my infantile enthusiasms, and still occupies a place in my bookcase. She is recognized as a "mother goddess" and a goddess of Life and Rebirth, who resurrected her husband, the God Osiris, who had been killed by his evil brother, Set, who had scattered his body parts to the winds. The Osiris/Isis/Horus cult became hugely popular in Egypt in the Late Period, and the cult of Isis specifically became very popular at Rome in time - I suppose that the prospect of Rebirth was more attractive than the empty formulae of traditional formal religion, or than the Stoic philosophical religion of the upper classes in the High Empire. ISIS appear to share only one thing with Isis - both deal with dismembered bodies ... Yours from Philae, JR.

JR*
12-04-2014, 08:39 AM
The Goddess Isis suckling the infant God Horus with protective Uraeus cobras (?representing Amun-Ra) and protective goddesses (?Nephtys and Mut), Egypt, late period. All the protection was needed to ward off the infant's wicked uncle, Set, who was determined to destroy the son of Osiris. Louvre, Paris.

7262

Rising Sun*
12-04-2014, 08:41 AM
Regarding the Geneva Convention (and other relevant international agreements), I am pretty sure that the Islamic State has not adhered to any of them.

It would have to be a signatory, which I assume as a basic principle of international law would require that it be recognised by other states, which I doubt has happened to any, or at least sufficient, extent.

JR*
01-08-2015, 05:24 AM
Massacre in Paris - three fatigue-wearing masked Islamaniac gunmen, armed with AK-47 assault rifles, murder 12 journalists, cartoonists and policemen at the offices of French satirical magazine, "Charlie Hebro" in Paris, in broad daylight. Another indication of the "Islamic State of Mind", at least as seen by the Caliphists ? At any rate, this outrage gives credence to the idea propagated by elements of the US-European intellectual Right ("Gates of Vienna" and all that) that Western civilization faces a "war from within", which it is ill-prepared to fight. I hope that the normal Muslim-in-the Street does not suffer for this.

In any event, this ranks with the worst Islamaniac attacks on the West, not excluding 9/11. It is a direct attack on a fundamental pillar of Western democracy - the right to Freedom of Speech. Cartoonists have been trenchant in their response to the murder of their fellows -

731273137314

Je suis Charlie,

JR.

kallinikosdrama1992
01-08-2015, 01:28 PM
After the attack on the offices at Charlie Hebdo another attack took place, again in Paris, after a gunman opened fire. If i recall correctly almost every year there was an incident like that, regarding Charlie Hebdo. Retaliations took place throughout France, after yesterdays shooting. These actions mean only that more caricatourists and satirists will take on against the islamic state. R.I.P.
7316

Also lets not forget the police officer who died in the Tuesday's shooting!! Je suis Achmed

Je suis Charlie

Rising Sun*
01-09-2015, 09:17 AM
It is a direct attack on a fundamental pillar of Western democracy - the right to Freedom of Speech.

Might I suggest that this currently prevailing view is a subjectively focused Western view which endows the murderers with much greater intellect and socio-political analytical skills and purpose than their self-evidently religiously motivated revenge murders displayed.

A more objective view is that murderers like these are actuated by an inexplicably fragile confidence in their version of Islam which leads them to be unduly sensitive to perceived insults to their version of their faith, suitably inflamed by the numerous violently inclined and also inexplicably fragile leaders of various versions of their faith espousing and inciting violence against kaffirs and, almost exclusively if ranked by death tolls, adherents to other versions of Islam.

The vastly disproportionate resort to violence for perceived insults is attributable also to the primitive cultures which spawn these vipers where, for example, a family is dishonoured by a daughter's innocent unsupervised contact with a boy from the wrong caste, tribe or whatever, which dishonour is expunged by the girl's father and brothers killing her or, as a magnificent display of dispassionate application of justice and penalty, having the village elders rape the girl before killing her.

Charming people, whose ilk as paragons of Islamic virtue under ISIL pursue the age old barbarian practices of plunder, pillage, rape, and taking or selling captured girls and women into sexual servitude.

Add to these noble achievements the routine execution of unarmed innocents, be they defenceless journalists beheaded in various places or the more recent Paris mass murders or the countless thousands in Islamic countries, and Allah and Mohammed PBTH must be so fuc*king proud of their valiant warriors.

As for an attack on freedom of speech, there isn't a country in the West or anywhere else which has, or ever will have, complete freedom of speech. The Charlie Hedbo murderers were just targeting people who had offended them. They're not terrorists, just murderers exacting revenge for perceived insults to an ancient historical figure (who, unsurprisingly, was himself an even more violent and vengeful bastard), which places them below even the detestable people who carry out so called honour killings to avenge perceived dishonour to their presently living families.

The Western press and governments would do their respective consumers and electorates a huge favour by abandoning the term 'terrorist' and reducing these vile people to their proper status of murderers some degrees below the level of sane thrill killers, and treating them with appropriate contempt and real life sentences or, preferably if only to avoid predictable hostage taking of innocents elsewhere to procure the release of these microbes, the death penalty. Ideally applied during attempts at capture, thus saving everyone a lot of trouble.

Rising Sun*
01-09-2015, 09:33 AM
JR*

It's not a major issue and I'll leave it to your discretion, but you might agree that it would be better to retitle this thread "Islamic Fascist State of Mind" or some other title you might prefer to distinguish the violent Muslim dregs from the Muslim communities which are appalled by and opposed to the likes of ISIL, the Paris murderers, etc.

This isn't a mod issue but merely an unusual display of delicacy by me, so it's entirely up to you which way you'd like to go, with no adverse consequences whatever you decide.

kallinikosdrama1992
01-09-2015, 09:57 AM
RS, I'll stand to your point about the term terrorist. Firstly those guys are murderers of 12 innocent people and editors who simply do some work that looks insulting to the muslims only because their religion is a little bit anachronistic. Second i think the word terrorist defines completely their act because they struck one of the most valuable parts of any democratic nation the freedom of speech; and thats exactly what terrorism is, cause of fear. France is in complet chaotic state from Tuesday. Last i dont know how i can tie this incident with entire the islamic world because a muslim man also died(executed from the footage) and i think a lot muslims demonstrated about those events too.

JR*
01-09-2015, 11:43 AM
Fine, no problem. Could I just explain that in naming this thread, the term "Islamic State of Mind" was in part a draw on the old song (?Willie Nelson) "Country State of Mind", and was intended to refer specifically to the mindset of the Islamaniac ISIS - a sour joke, perhaps, but a joke. It was absolutely not intended as an insult to Muslims generally; I live in a community that is very substantially Muslim - my neighbors -, and I have no problems with Muslims as such (more problems, I have to say, with our purely home-grown hooligans). As an alternative title, I might suggest "Extreme Islamist War on Freedom", or some such ? Whatever these people are, they are not "Fascist". Best regards, JR.

gumalangi
01-09-2015, 05:25 PM
This ISIS/L things are getting more and more sympathy from muslim majority country like Indonesia, it is not because they agreed upon their action, but in contraire, we mostly despised their action,. but global condemnation of what we are not, has made the recruiting process of ISIS/L more smoothly than before. This extremely difficult for us for keep going to fight or at least against any act terror, while being branded as terrorist ourselves, no matter what we do or dont do, we all are the culprit. even in this and some of other respectable forums by some of respectable members.

While people now bombarding the muslin of the current event, yet forgetting the very muslim police who died fighting them.

But i know things are getting change for better,. "ill ride with you" is one of them.

Rising Sun*
01-10-2015, 10:07 AM
Fine, no problem. Could I just explain that in naming this thread, the term "Islamic State of Mind" was in part a draw on the old song (?Willie Nelson) "Country State of Mind", and was intended to refer specifically to the mindset of the Islamaniac ISIS - a sour joke, perhaps, but a joke. It was absolutely not intended as an insult to Muslims generally; I live in a community that is very substantially Muslim - my neighbors -, and I have no problems with Muslims as such (more problems, I have to say, with our purely home-grown hooligans). As an alternative title, I might suggest "Extreme Islamist War on Freedom", or some such ? Whatever these people are, they are not "Fascist". Best regards, JR.

I didn't interpret or impute anything adverse to you. I assumed your personal position was as you have described it in the quote above.

I was just having a quite unwarranted episode last night of not wanting all Muslims to feel that they are embraced by any comments in this thread.

I got over that today when this article http://www.theage.com.au/world/acehs-sharia-law-raped-and-beaten-then-formally-whipped-20150109-12kucb.html (about gang rape of a woman being imposed as a religious punishment by the local religious community of devout Sharia vigilantes for a religious but not criminal offence) reminded me that large parts of the Muslim world living according to their versions of Sharia law are beyond reason and contempt judged by what they see as decadent and repulsive Western notions of humane treatment, fairness and justice.

As my suggestion about changing the thread title sprang from extending my decadent and repulsive Western notions of humane treatment, fairness and justice to Muslims generally, and as large parts of the Muslim world share the Islamic state of mind represented by ISIS and the practice of Sharia law in Aceh, Pakistan etc, I certainly don't want to offend them by denying them the glory of "Islamic" in discussions of activities by adherents of Islam in pursuit of their laws and customs.

After all, your initial post dealt with the "Islamic State" and that title was proclaimed by no less than the current Caliph, so the thread title is correct.

If other Muslims don't like what goes on in Islamic State and Aceh and Pakistan and Saudi Arabi and Nigeria and Somalia and countless other places in the name of Islam, they can take it up with the current Caliph.

My apologies, JR*. Your thread title was, and is, perfectly correct.

Rising Sun*
01-10-2015, 11:00 AM
This ISIS/L things are getting more and more sympathy from muslim majority country like Indonesia, it is not because they agreed upon their action, but in contraire, we mostly despised their action,. but global condemnation of what we are not, has made the recruiting process of ISIS/L more smoothly than before. This extremely difficult for us for keep going to fight or at least against any act terror, while being branded as terrorist ourselves, no matter what we do or dont do, we all are the culprit. even in this and some of other respectable forums by some of respectable members.

Your comment represents one side of a two sided problem.

One side is the unfounded sense of universal victimhood by Muslims, which comes through your comment. I can't think of anyone of international importance making any adverse comment about Indonesia in relation to Islamic terrorists (more accurately, merely murderers), as distinct from concerns about some small elements in Indonesia which have generally been dealt with by local law enforcement bodies, in marked contrast to, say, Pakistan. Considering events such as 9/11, bombings in England and Spain, murder of soldiers selected at random in England and Canada, recent events in France and Australia, and so on, there has been no significant and certainly no equivalent response by the dominant non-Muslim communities in those places to these unprovoked murders and acts of barbarity in the name of Islam. ISIS, Al Qaeda etc do not exercise the same restraint but encourage and carry out murders of innocents, although in the vast majority of cases they are murdering other Muslims, albeit in their view the wrong brand of Muslim, in their tens of thousands. Islam is not a unified religion, any more than Christianity is, but to the extent that Muslims are under attack and being killed it is predominantly from other Muslims. Muslims, not the West, are the greatest threat to other Muslims. Witness about 135 Muslim children murdered by other Muslims in Pakistan recently.

The other side is the unfounded sense by many in the non-Muslim, primarily Western, world that all Muslims are united in, or at least do not condemn, the actions of ISIS etc. This stems in part from the same problem that Islam is not a unified religion but, unlike the major Christian religions, there is no worldwide head of Islam comparable to the heads of the Catholic and Anglican churches, so there is nobody to speak with authority for Islam or even the various branches of Islam. This has been compounded until fairly recently by the failure of the news media in the West to report condemnation by various Muslim leaders and associations of the activities of ISIS etc, while reporting the duplicity of some Muslim leaders who say one thing to the news media and the reverse to their own congregation. However, over the past couple of years this has changed, as has the determination of Western leaders in their own countries to avoid calls for vengeance on local Muslim communities after local outrages but to reinforce the need for unity between Muslims and the rest of the local community in fighting a common enemy. This is in marked contrast to the more strident and often violent calls from sections of Islam, inside and outside those Western countries, to increase attacks on the communities to which Muslims have come for a better life.

What we are seeing now is a low level and ultimately unimportant series of attacks by murderers and lunatics inspired by radical and violent Islamic preaching of the ISIS kind, but at a more strategic and more worrying level it is the old revolutionary cycle of attacks by dissidents to increase repression leading to, as you said, increased recruitment to the dissident cause leading to larger attacks and greater repression leading to, almost never, a popular uprising to overthrow the forces of repression. To the extent that the forces of repression in the current jihadist attacks and campaigns are represented by the USA, Britain, Western European nations, and others such as Canada and Australia, and even India and China dealing with their Islamic insurgencies, there is no way that the the Islamic warriors are going to win. As for destroying Muslim nations and killing other Muslims at a vastly greater rate than the West has ever done (but vastly less than the West could do if it wanted to), they are already doing that very successfully and show every sign of doing it more successfully for the foreseeable future.

The path to destruction which the likes of Al Qaeda and ISIS have set us upon can be avoided only by Muslims who disagree with ISIS etc repudiating ISIS etc rather than seeing ISIS as a victim and allying themselves with it as co-Muslims against the West as a wrongly perceived enemy.

I don't see that happening as the bulk of the Islamic world seems to share your opinion that it should support the likes of ISIS as fellow Muslims against perceived attacks by the West. The reality will be that if the likes of ISIS control Muslim nations, and especially moderate Muslim nations like Indonesia, you'll think that the massacres of hundreds of thousands of communists in Indonesia in the mid-1960s were gentle times.

gumalangi
01-10-2015, 01:37 PM
your assessment on isis is somewhat true to the extent,. the majority of muslim in Indonesia - like i said on my previous post - are against any action of ISIS or some radical islam movement, however, level of education for most of the people in this very populous country is not high, burden of economy adding to the already difficult life. But also, in bigger city, there are elements of some local radical muslim group who kept harassing the city on their sweeping for anything outside the sariah law, the government had banned such organisation, but thats only happen on the talking of the officials, and no action taken when such group suddenly appeared.

I for once received a leaflet on - calls for jihad - when attending friday pray in one remote mosque, what is surprising, its offer not only those virgins in heaven,. but also proper allowance and benefits. As for some of more educated youth who got access to the media, when asked, on what they think of ISIS,. he expressed that he cannot agree on the violence done by them, but seems, whole world are against us, who gonna stand for own shake.

Major islamic groups in Indonesia are not keep silent on this matter, like Nahdatul Ulama and Muhammadiyah are officially rejecting ISIS in support to the statement of Official to denounce on its existence in Indonesia. But like Al qaeda, we need to take extreme measure in keeping them at bay, not by simply rejecting or denouncing. Unlike Al qeada branch in the country, the police already and still continue hunting them down,. but ISIS in Indonesia has yet to do some damage in order to be announce as criminal organisation, they just demonstrating and rallying support at this moment, but this like waiting for the storm to come.

Rising Sun*
01-11-2015, 09:58 AM
but ISIS in Indonesia has yet to do some damage in order to be announce as criminal organisation, they just demonstrating and rallying support at this moment, but this like waiting for the storm to come.

The view in some intelligence circles is that there is a strong chance that Indonesia will soon be the target for attacks by the likes of ISIS.

Should that regrettable event occur, one wonders what it is supposed to achieve in the world's most populous, and probably most moderate, Muslim nation.

Hopefully, we won't need to discuss that, as we hope it won't occur.

Rising Sun*
01-11-2015, 10:17 AM
7329


Always intrigues me that demonstrators in non-English speaking countries often make their banners in English. Clearly their messages are intended for impact in the English speaking world, which is rather pointless in countries where English speaking nations have no direct, and often no, local influence.

Doubly ironic in this case, given what appears to be the backdrop of the Welcome monument in Jakarta. They don't look to me like a welcoming party to English speakers from the West. Nor a welcoming party to most Indonesian Muslims, who generally outside of some local areas such as Aceh follow a much more moderate form of Islam than ISIS and sundry others springing from the oil funded well of Saudi Wahhabbism.

And triply ironic as the average English speaker is repelled by ISIS and all it stands for. These idiots have wasted their time and money making banners in English, unless the banners are intended to annoy English speakers. Which is a further miscalculation by these idiots as, unlike the zombies in France who thought that murdering defenceless cartoonists and journalists to avenge insults to the Prophet PBHM was a triumph for ISIS style Islam, we're not too upset by, nor necessarily impressed by, words and banners.

And, as an English speaker in the English speaking world next door to Indonesia, I couldn't care less what these depraved religious idiots think, want, or do.

gumalangi
01-11-2015, 11:34 AM
i couldnt agree more on we should already initiate some actions towards these embryo of ISIS, however, Indonesia still having this culture shock so called 'human right'
these vultures loves to hide under the banner of human rights when there are some arrest/sweeping on these extremists. The military are keeping themselves away from being branded as human right abuser, as few of high ranks military officials still being haunted of this accusation of the older regime.

There was one time when one cleric openly support al qaeda and Osama bin laden, and his boarding school openly advocating to join on the purpose. The government arrest the cleric, but some NGO in the name human right, able to secure the cleric, however his boarding school were ceased to operate. The newly imposed Human right restrictions, really limit the ability of authority to take action on potential terror group.

Your comment on the english banner, really an eye opener, i believe it is meant for western media or at least some westerners to see on their movement as if whole nation are supporting these group, and hoping funneling bad sentiment toward us. And this connected to my first post previously.

kallinikosdrama1992
01-12-2015, 02:12 PM
I'll start by saying that i didn't even heard that ISIS/L "movement", or i don't know how else to characterize this group, acted in Indonesia and also so pompously but that's probably the reason my homecountry has problems on it's own,although it's bad not to be correctly informed by the mass media. The photo gumalangi uploaded might only had the supporters we see in the foreground and thats all, but thats irrelevant; it's so problematic to see demonstrations take place in muslim countries(i dont know if this is a correct term) and support ISIS/L, simply because this is beyond a movement anymore but a criminal organisation. I'd agree with RS* about the irony with the english-written banners but doesn't it also show a hostillity to the human right section, especially after what happened in France?

Furthermore something else that i found out via the internet was the incident with Boko Haram in Nigeria. I write about it here because i think it "belongs" here. Mass bombings that took place in Baga, Nigeria killed about 2000 people, most of them probably christians but also muslims, if we take acount the religious populations in the country. This happened the same period with the Charlie Hebdo incident and i don't think it was given enough publicity and i dont why. The point i'm trying to make, not clearly, with this paragraph is that ISIS/L and other groups affiliated with them, dont only fight the westerner's(which i've read it is their main cause), but from their hits they target also muslims and their lives, making muslims their enemy also.

Also gumalangi why to funnel bad testiment towards you, with what end i mean.
Respectfully Kal

gumalangi
01-12-2015, 07:28 PM
Also gumalangi why to funnel bad testiment towards you, with what end i mean.
Respectfully Kal

The feeling of mutual ends among all muslims, is not necessarily based on the similar verses we read and understood (as a matter of fact, we always keep arguing on those verses, like - you should kill the infidel againstYour way is yours, and my way is mine. -, but more and more due to islamicphobia sentiments and statements. One preacher keep telling us on how the westerners hate Islam and/or Indonesia as the most populous muslim nation etc, and so to our just we should defend ourselves.

And relates to the english banners, in the very heart of the capital? the welcome monument it is,.surrounded by 4 international chain hotels (Mandarin orientral, Hyatt, Kempinsky and Sheraton) 80% of its occupants are foreigners and British Embassy.

kallinikosdrama1992
01-13-2015, 02:54 AM
The feeling of mutual ends among all muslims, is not necessarily based on the similar verses we read and understood (as a matter of fact, we always keep arguing on those verses, like - you should kill the infidel againstYour way is yours, and my way is mine. -, but more and more due to islamicphobia sentiments and statements. One preacher keep telling us on how the westerners hate Islam and/or Indonesia as the most populous muslim nation etc, and so to our just we should defend ourselves.

And relates to the english banners, in the very heart of the capital? the welcome monument it is,.surrounded by 4 international chain hotels (Mandarin orientral, Hyatt, Kempinsky and Sheraton) 80% of its occupants are foreigners and British Embassy.

Also the hate at the muslims i never understood. Definately different dogma, different way of lives, but from what i hear from friends, blogs and stuff like that, in europe there is a neutral idea about arabic/muslim countries and the hate comes from the goverments, especially the US, something i think started(and never ended from historical view) from the crusades.

Well i didn't know about the hotels around the welcome monument and now the whole phot has a point thus "uniting" the muslims.

gumalangi
01-15-2015, 02:47 AM
Sorry for being stray out of topic,

Related to the paris shooting, i just realized early of December 2014, France recognized Palestine as a state, and then,. attacked on kosher restaurant in Paris, and the Charlie Hebdo shooting,.

i dont wanna play conspiracy theory in here,. but,. i found it is strange for what great things has been done by France towards palestine - which represent - the oppressed muslim nation, being attack continously by muslim or muslim organization just after that.. it just not make any sense?

Rising Sun*
01-15-2015, 08:06 AM
Sorry for being stray out of topic,

Related to the paris shooting, i just realized early of December 2014, France recognized Palestine as a state, and then,. attacked on kosher restaurant in Paris, and the Charlie Hebdo shooting,.

i dont wanna play conspiracy theory in here,. but,. i found it is strange for what great things has been done by France towards palestine - which represent - the oppressed muslim nation, being attack continously by muslim or muslim organization just after that.. it just not make any sense?

It's a significant consequence of France's colonial past, notably in Algeria and from the Algerian migration to France caused by violent French repression during that bitter conflict, which has produced a large population of poor Muslims in France who are resentful of France.

Short versions here:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jul/05/50-years-algeria-independence-france-denial

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/charlie-hebdo-paris-attack-brothers-campaign-of-terror-can-be-traced-back-to-algeria-in-1954-9969184.html

Although that's not by any means a complete explanation, as some Muslim migrants to other Western countries or their Western born children bear equal hostility to the Western countries to which they chose to migrate, and have demonstrated it by violent and frequently murderous acts and plots in Britain, the US, Canada and Australia which, certainly in the latter two countries, had no involvement in anything adverse to Muslims and, in the case of the vipers let into our midst, foolishly welcomed them with open arms and considerable financial support (typically funding the likes of the recent Sydney murderer on welfare for the many years they have lived here without contributing anything useful to our society).

The problem common to all these nations is that, regardless of where they came from, a small proportion of Muslims who choose to live outside Muslim nations hate the Western nations in which they live and are determined to destroy them in pursuit of the ideals of the likes of Al Qaeda and ISIL.

Then again, the same mentality applies to many Muslims in widely spread Muslim nations to justify the killing of Muslim schoolchildren in Pakistan; endless atrocities in Nigeria; ISIL etc in Iraq and Syria, and various other places, where Muslims do vastly more damage to other Muslims than they do with relatively inconsequential events like the recent ones in France.

This problem is not one of Western oppression of Muslims as the likes of ISIL would have us believe, but one of radical Muslim elements attacking the rest of the world which doesn't share their narrow view of (generally radical Sunni) Islam. Muslims in countries targeted by the likes of ISIL and Boko Haram have a lot more to fear from those fellow Muslims than they do from the West.

The greatest criticism that can be made of the West is not that it persecutes Muslims, but that it fails to do enough or even anything to protect them from the ravages of the Pakistani Taliban, Boko Haram etc.

Whether it is realistic to expect the West to intervene in places like Nigeria or Pakistan is a different question, to which the answer is always: No.

Heidy
01-28-2015, 04:18 AM
Islam/ muslims simply don't belong in our nations. Way different culture and beliefs to ours.

Also, western military have no right to invade and bomb the middle east.

JR*
02-02-2015, 12:19 PM
I am by no means unconcerned by the threat posed by super-mass migration to the heritage of "western civilization". However, migration, and mass migration, have been phenomena observed throughout recorded history and before. Otherwise, we would all still be in Africa. Sometimes, mind you, I wonder why we ever came out of Africa. Especially after viewing "Extreme Alaskan Survival" - type shows on Discovery. In any event, the migrants are coming, and will keep coming. That is a fact. Unlike the softies who laud this as promoting variety and multi-culturalism (although this does have benefits), I might wish otherwise; but this would be unrealistic. Non-"European" migrants are "here", and will remain here. Both "natives" and "migrants" will just have to find the best way of dealing with this.

Actually, there is another threat to our civilization in the West perhaps even more serious than migration - the crapulous education systems, even in many "advanced" western countries, that are bringing up generations of children who have little or no appreciation of the indigenous cultural heritage of Europe and the Americas. I am not a religious person - but it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that some of this at least is due to the decline of the advanced West into a politically correct religious desert. The problem is neatly encapsulated by the account of a young British primary school teacher of bringing a party of her pupils on a tour of Britain's National Gallery of Art a couple of years' back. Half-way through the tour, she was approached by an indignant little girl pupil, who demanded to know why all of the babies in the "Madonna" paintings were boys (!). To such basic ignorance and political correctness can be added the mass philistinism of the young promoted by the appropriation of youth culture by electronic social media and video games, and the ever more insistent pressure coming from "industry" and "innovation" advocates (that is to say, the agents of the ultra-rich) on governments to skew the education system ever more towards the "needs" of "industry" and "innovation" (that is, techie stuff and "management skills" much of which will be redundant within a decade) at the expense of the arts and literary studies - not to mention direct private sector intrusions into the delivery of education. The result of this could leave us within a very short time with a workforce in place of a citizenry; with a population of intellectually impoverished helots with no appreciation of the "heritage" that is, in fact, what truly made them. Even if this were likely to be of benefit to all helots, it might be something - but it would not. The tech/management-clever helots will become "managers" and "tech leaders"; the rest, well, I am not sure what we will do with them. A huge number of the basic model will be left over, surplus to requirements. Much more dangerous will be the surviving educated, or self-educated cadre of clever but "impractical" helots. Neither of the last to groups would be likely to cause much trouble individually and, individually, either might be manageable by the new élite (the Roman Empire pulled off this trick for a long time, after all). Put together, however, one finds the source of Revolution.

Perhaps I am not sorry that, purely on the basis of passage of time, I am not likely to be in this world too much longer. Yours from the Ivory Tower, assailed by the Foul Thing, JR (apologies to my late countryman, Oscar Wilde).

Rising Sun*
02-03-2015, 07:27 AM
I had a pleasant and what is becoming a traditional Australia Day BBQ (26 January, celebrating the first steps in wresting the land from its indigenes) where:

1. I listened at length to a woman with the Australian flag painted on her fingernails and Australian map / flag deelybops on her head describe the sectarian / almost tribal horrors in the former Yugoslavia where, among other horrors, she and her children were shot at by snipers just trying to collect water to survive, and how bloody grateful she was to live in a country free of those horrors.

2. A tough old Aussie bastard about my age with tough old bastard tattoos and other signs of being a tough old bastard you’d automatically categorise as a hard right moron, announced “I don’t care who comes to this country, as long as they live by our laws and customs.”

The woman from former Yugoslavia is the ideal migrant, and the tough old Aussie bastard expressed the sentiment of half-way decent people here.

Muslims, Hottentots, Calathumphians, Afghanis, Iranians, South Africans, Poms, Pacific Islanders, Italians, Greeks, Spaniards and, which demonstrates the limitless level of our tolerance, even the Irish ;) :D : they can all come in, as long as they adopt the values and culture of the country they chose.

Rising Sun*
02-03-2015, 07:49 AM
Unlike the softies who laud this as promoting variety and multi-culturalism (although this does have benefits), I might wish otherwise; but this would be unrealistic. Non-"European" migrants are "here", and will remain here. Both "natives" and "migrants" will just have to find the best way of dealing with this.

Multiculturalism is bullshit.

If you want to maintain your pure culture, go to a country which accepts it. Preferably the one you just left, even if you left it in fear of your life.

Ooops, that's a bit hard if you're a Shia surrounded by Sunni cultures, and vice versa.

So go to a completely alien culture in a Western country, so you can moan about being a victim and discriminated against because you choose to maintain your alien culture and religion and are offended by the refusal of the host country, to which you chose to come out of all the countries in the world in the full knowledge that it was the exact opposite of the religion and culture you prefer, to subordinate its laws and customs to yours.

I haven't noticed any inclination in Iran, Saudi Arabia and other sources of Islamic virtue to modify their laws and customs to accommodate the West.

So why would any vaguely intelligent person from those and related regions expect the West to modify its laws and customs to accommodate them?

When in Rome ......

Oh, would that include the Saudi soccer team in Australia refusing to get on a bus driven by a woman, because women aren't allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia? http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-30/sivaraman-wells-saudi-arabia-gender-apartheid/6057640

Jesus wept!

Wittmann
02-08-2015, 01:09 AM
Its time for Muslim countries to grow a pair and take care of their own.

I'm sorry unless the UK and US bail them out they completely clueless, at least Africa tries with the African Union. The Middle East needs wake up and quit worrying about things that happened 500 years ago and focus on the here and now.

I'm not sure about anyone else, but I'm not worried about French Indian War crap right now where I live, yes it happened where I live but I'm over it.

gumalangi
03-15-2015, 12:27 PM
This is what the majority of Indonesian's muslims concern of;

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/03/turkey-detains-16-indonesians-attempting-join-isil-150314065912726.html
Sixteen Indonesians have been detained in Turkey while attempting to cross into Syria to join the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) group, Turkish foreign minister has said.

for those who had succeeded enduring the length of stay in Syria/Iraq and survive, they ll return to and bring back fresh recruits. The topic are hot among Indonesian muslims, 100% of my friends are against such an act.
however, by condemning all Muslims are terrorists is like,. telling us to become one.

Rising Sun*
03-16-2015, 08:12 AM
This is what the majority of Indonesian's muslims concern of;

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/03/turkey-detains-16-indonesians-attempting-join-isil-150314065912726.html
Sixteen Indonesians have been detained in Turkey while attempting to cross into Syria to join the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) group, Turkish foreign minister has said.

for those who had succeeded enduring the length of stay in Syria/Iraq and survive, they ll return to and bring back fresh recruits.

Same concern here among our security, police and government forces about Australians going to ISIL and returning to Australia, so great efforts are made to identify these people and stop them leaving.

Contrary view among everyone I know, including me, is "Let the bastards go, and don't let them return.". As usual, governments are out of step with common sense among the average people.


The topic are hot among Indonesian muslims, 100% of my friends are against such an act.

Same in Australia among all non-Muslims I know, and among most Muslim community and religious leaders in their public statements.


however, by condemning all Muslims are terrorists is like,. telling us to become one.

I have a problem with that statement, and with the public comments by some Islamic leaders here along similar lines which seek to shift blame from Muslims attracted to ISIL and other primitive Islamic movements by blaming the West.

Major party Australian politicians and others from the minor parties and independents, except for a trivial minority of ignorant fools https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o63FGy3mPWI , have all been careful not to paint all Muslims with the ISIL etc brush.

Nonetheless, there are Muslim elements here who claim that the problem is Western military intervention in the Middle East etc which imposes great injustices upon Muslims by killing them in droves and destroying their homes and societies and so on. This is rubbish. Most Muslims in the Middle East and other hot spots of violent Islamic virtue such as Nigeria are killed by other Muslims, in pursuit of ancient medieval divisions about which is the one true faith, much as Europeans did for several centuries in their various intra-Christianity wars and atrocities.

The problem I have with your statement is that it echoes similar statements by some Muslims here, in and out of leadership roles, along the lines of "Well, you're branding all Muslims as terrorists, so we might as well behave like terrorists, so it's your fault you're making us into terrorists." Either you're opposed to Islamic, for want of a better term, terrorism in which case it doesn't matter what others say about you, or you're not fully opposed to it and even allow it and then blame non-Muslims for forcing you into what is essentially an intra-Muslim form of genocide mixed with an unreasoning hostility to the West and everyone else who isn't like you. (I'm using 'you' here in a general sense representing that type of thinking rather than implying that it represents your personal attitudes or beliefs.)

That is exactly the sort of attitude which disturbs non-Muslims here as it ignores the efforts made by most of our political, non-Muslim religious and community leaders to distinguish between pro-ISIL / Boko Haram and sundry other psychopathic jihadi types of Muslims and the vast bulk of other Muslims who do oppose ISIL and its ilk.

I come from an Irish Catholic background and am old enough to remember the discrimination and suspicion towards me and my ancestors by the dominant English Protestant elements in Australia, which were much along the same lines as that now experienced by many Muslims in Australia at street level, although generally not at higher levels. For example, large sections of the public service at state and federal levels were closed to Catholics, as was employment in many large corporations, in an era long before anti-discrimination laws arose. None of that applies to Muslims here now.

There is an understandable sense of victimhood among many Muslims here, and justifiably so because of the hostility shown to some of them at street level by our ignorant and or prejudiced non-Muslims, but the problem arises from the actions of a very large number of Muslims in the guise of the Taliban, Al Qaeda, ISIL, and countless other Islamic advocates for fundamentalist Islam ably sponsored by the Saudis on the Sunni side and Iran on the Shia side and their various clients such as, respectively, most of the really violent Sunni groups and Hezbollah. It is reinforced by the variously evasive, ambiguous, disingenuous, and duplicitous public statements by various Islamic leaders which imply support for, or at least a refusal to condemn, ISIL etc, of which this is a prime example: http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2014/s4103227.htm

The problems within Islam and without Islam, such as Saudi and Iranian sponsored terrorism in the name of and in pursuit of their versions of Islam, are peculiar to and are confined to Islam. Nobody but Muslims can solve these problems. Given the blood feuds that have been going on between the various brands of Islam for the past 13 or so centuries, and which are neatly encapsulated in the current crimes against humanity by ISIL as this branch of Sunnis wreaks vengeance, rapine and mayhem on everyone who isn't them, it is nonsensical to blame the West for this. It is even sillier to expect the West to solve these issues when the whole problem is limited to conflict within Islam.

Muslims killing Muslims; raping them; enslaving them; and generally trampling upon their human rights as expressed in modern international covenants, and in ancient Koranic principles http://www.islaminfocentre.org.uk/human-rights.html , in pursuit of their brand of Islam is a choice made by Muslims.

Muslims are entitled to a grave sense of victimhood, but currently and historically it arises mainly from their oppression by other Muslims.

It has nothing to do with the West, or anything outside Islam.

It is not, from my Western viewpoint, my problem and, as a non-Muslim, there is nothing I can do to correct it. Except to support the actions of any government which opposes ISIL, Boko Haram, and all forms of violent jihadism in accordance with the sound principles of human rights espoused in various international covenants and, among others, the Koran.

If that makes Muslims feel that I and people who think like me are victimising them, they need to shed the victim scales from their eyes and get a grip on the vile reality of what is being done in the name of Islam and do something practical about it instead of blaming everyone but other Muslims for the predicament brought upon them by their co-religionists.

gumalangi
03-16-2015, 12:49 PM
It has nothing to do with the West, or anything outside Islam.



i agree on this statement,. or any sane Muslim individuals,. that is why me and majority of us are do as much or at least to stay away from any sort of violence.

I mentioned early on my previous posts that,. some militant clerics using the western condemnation as their tools to attract or sway more Muslim to support their cause. I just hope more people left aside on whatever the background on the criminals,. as the for the bad person,. he/she will do bad in whatever belief he/she is in.

JR*
03-16-2015, 01:18 PM
I agree with both. I have plenty of Muslim neighbours, and I am sure that many of them are, secretly, worried sick that their children or nieces and nephews might succumb to the blandishments of ISIS, Al-Queda or some other nutty fringe terrorist group, and head off for Syria or (the new Fronts) Libya or Nigeria. Just yesterday, it was reported that three British (born and bred) Muslim teenage boys were picked up in Catalunya, in the course of an apparent attempt to get to Syria or Libya to sign up as fighters with ISIS. They were only picked up in time because of timely notification by their families to the British authorities that they had failed to return on time from a prayer service. A little further back, three teenage Muslim girls from London actually succeeded in the same trip; apparently, they did get from Turkey to ISIS territory in Syria. God help them.

I am far from ascribing responsibility for these events to Muslim communities in general - whether in Britain, Ireland or indeed Indonesia. However, it is surely urgently necessary for those Muslim communities to take action to protect their youth from themselves when it comes to taking dangerous, self-destructive ISIS adventures. These young people are taking enormous risks with their lives and futures in embarking on such journeys. Britain, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Turkey, Indonesia ... they can only do so much to protect their young Muslim citizens from such adventures. Only their own communities can take decisive action to prevent this. Perhaps Imams - and I am referring principally to Sunni Imams - need to take heed to the rights of parents in their communities in this matter. There will always be nutty Islamaniac Imams who promote the poisonous message of ISIS and its like. However, theirs is not, as I understand it, a correct, proper and (if one may say) canonical message of Islam. Authorities and clerics need to co-operate to head off such tragedies, as far as may be possible. JR.

Rising Sun*
03-16-2015, 04:43 PM
I have plenty of Muslim neighbours, and I am sure that many of them are, secretly, worried sick that their children or nieces and nephews might succumb to the blandishments of ISIS, Al-Queda or some other nutty fringe terrorist group, and head off for Syria or (the new Fronts) Libya or Nigeria. Just yesterday, it was reported that three British (born and bred) Muslim teenage boys were picked up in Catalunya, in the course of an apparent attempt to get to Syria or Libya to sign up as fighters with ISIS. They were only picked up in time because of timely notification by their families to the British authorities that they had failed to return on time from a prayer service. A little further back, three teenage Muslim girls from London actually succeeded in the same trip; apparently, they did get from Turkey to ISIS territory in Syria. God help them.

I am far from ascribing responsibility for these events to Muslim communities in general - whether in Britain, Ireland or indeed Indonesia. However, it is surely urgently necessary for those Muslim communities to take action to protect their youth from themselves when it comes to taking dangerous, self-destructive ISIS adventures. These young people are taking enormous risks with their lives and futures in embarking on such journeys. Britain, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Turkey, Indonesia ... they can only do so much to protect their young Muslim citizens from such adventures. Only their own communities can take decisive action to prevent this. Perhaps Imams - and I am referring principally to Sunni Imams - need to take heed to the rights of parents in their communities in this matter. There will always be nutty Islamaniac Imams who promote the poisonous message of ISIS and its like. However, theirs is not, as I understand it, a correct, proper and (if one may say) canonical message of Islam. Authorities and clerics need to co-operate to head off such tragedies, as far as may be possible. JR.

It ain't just children from Muslim families or backgrounds who are attracted to ISIL etc. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-13/jake-bilardi-what-we-know-australian-teenager-islamic-state/6314260

I think that a substantial proportion, quite probably most, people attracted to ISIL etc are mentally disturbed in some way. That is certainly the case of the young idiot in the link above and of the prominent Australians who have gone to fight with ISIL, notably this piece of scum. http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/barbaric-nature-of-isil-on-display-with-photos-of-boy-holding-decapitated-head-says-prime-minister-tony-abbott-20140810-3dh8q.html
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/illness-reduced-jihadi-khaled-sharroufs-stretch/story-fn59niix-1227010748884

If ISIL didnt' exist, they'd just as likely engage in some other pointlessly violent act such as massacring schoolmates or workmates, or just confine themselves to relatively harmless rants on blogs and Facebook.

ISIL etc is undoubtedly a significant and dangerous problem for non-jihadist Muslims and the rest of us, but so is whatever it is that causes people to be attracted to organised lawless violence. That is an old problem, going back through the Red Brigades, Baader-Meinhof Gang, to the 19th century anarchists and so on.

JR*
03-20-2015, 11:33 AM
We should not forget that a lot of the organized lawless violence in the world results from simple, traditional motives such as illicit profit. The whole international illicit drugs trade is based, ultimately, on lawless, arbitrary violence - Nidge and the Boys, and the Way they might look at you. I am inclined to the view that this is a separate silo from that occupied by "political" terrorists, although it has to be conceded that there is a substantial overlap in their purely "commercial" activities.

RS* - very disturbing links. The young man who is alleged to have blown himself up in a suicide bombing in Iraq comes across as seriously disturbed and emotionally needy. There was a time when severely disillusioned youth gravitated to marginally disruptive movements such as the "Mods/Rockers" phenomenon of early 1960s Britain, or towards more pacific "alternative lifestyles" such as the Hippies, Goths and so on. It is indeed perplexing to see young people - troubled, certainly, but conventionally brought up and educated in the West - drawn into a profoundly alien form of rejection and defiance. I do not mean conversion to a particular religion (it happens; it probably always has). I mean being persuaded to take exceptional efforts to join in a violent, vicious terrorist enterprise, masquerading under the cover of religion, involvement in which is likely to end up with them being used as human ammunition by the cynical/crazed leaders of this enterprise. Hippies can (and usually did) cut their hair and take a bath. Goths can leave off with the makeup and hair dye. Vulnerable, disturbed will not get the opportunity to press the reverse button on their suicide vests - there isn't one.

Never got as far as being a Mod or Rocker, myself; nor a Goth for that matter. Perhaps I am not best placed to judge. It is just beyond my comprehension how a young person, however disturbed and alienated, could adopt such an extreme, exotic, alien mans of expressing their alienation. Given the amount of alienation around at the moment, this demands consideration by the civilized world - Christian, Islamic or whatever". What are we, as a civilization, doing to some of our children ? Best regards, JR.

gumalangi
03-20-2015, 01:29 PM
kinda glad, Chief of Staff of TNI ensuring to fight ISIS and looking to widen the cooperation with the west (USA)
Chief Of Army expressed that TNI will scrutinized areas that considered full of radical Islam Movement.
http://nasional.kompas.com/read/2015/03/19/20333041/Bertemu.Dubes.AS.Panglima.TNI.Pastikan.Indonesia.I kut.Perangi.ISIS

some action been done to prevent further widespread of ISIS, 6 returning Indonesians from ISIS conflict areas are being detained.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUvl09vj5v0

Base on Indonesia's Geographical aspect, it is very important neighboring countries like Australia, Singapore and many others should directly involve in assisting Indonesia fighting these terror group. By conquering Indonesia as their stronghold; imagine the manpower supply and resources and direct access to the neighboring countries.

Rising Sun*
03-21-2015, 05:23 AM
Base on Indonesia's Geographical aspect, it is very important neighboring countries like Australia, Singapore and many others should directly involve in assisting Indonesia fighting these terror group. By conquering Indonesia as their stronghold; imagine the manpower supply and resources and direct access to the neighboring countries.

The risk to Indonesia and surrounding countries is not that Indonesia is the world's largest, by population, Muslim nation but that the largely moderate Muslim population of Indonesia could be hijacked by the jihadists, much as the mullahs took over Iran and the Taliban took over Afghanistan, both of which nations were previously predominantly moderate Muslim.

Turkey is definitely at risk of being controlled by a more virulent strain of Islamists, although not necessarily jihadists.

The problem in all these places, as with Germany being controlled by the Nazis, is that the bulk of people don't want regimes based on extreme or violent political or religious doctrines, but the extremists and violent people determined to control a people or place tend to be in a minority but still overwhelm the majority because the majority isn't motivated and unified by whatever version of evil it is that motivates and unifies the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Boko Haram, and ISIL to impress their vile creeds and control upon others.

Rising Sun*
03-21-2015, 08:14 AM
Base on Indonesia's Geographical aspect, it is very important neighboring countries like Australia, Singapore and many others should directly involve in assisting Indonesia fighting these terror group.

I agree entirely, but unfortunately there are problems inside and between some of those countries which make it unlikely that there will be the necessary level of unified action against jihadists.

So far as Australia is concerned, the clumsy idiot who is our Prime Minister has a rare talent for offending people inside and outside Australia with ill-considered statements and actions, and most recently Indonesia, again, over the proposed executions of Australian drug dealers and the running sore of refugees coming to Australia by boat from Indonesia.

Add to that the post-war histories of Indonesia, Malaysia and Australia which have involved, admittedly low level, armed conflict with Indonesia by the other two and various current difficulties and disputes around human rights, West Papua, refugees, Australia spying on the former Indonesian President and his wife (or, more accurately, incompetently being caught at it, as all countries spy on each other) and other issues and events which make the relationships less than fully trusting and co-operative. Then there are local issues in Indonesia and Malaysia directly relevant to national governments not wanting to offend important segments of the local Muslim populations and electorates, such as fundamentalist Muslim communities in Aceh in Indonesia and in some Malaysian states.

I'm sure that most ordinary people in Indonesia, Malaysia and Australia share a common opposition to terrorists of any type, and currently to the most visible and threatening ones of the jihadist type, and just want to live their lives in peace, but the unpleasant people who like to exercise power over others as politicians, or as jihadists, pursue different aims based on power and self-interest.

I don't see regional or other responses to jihadists having a useful and enduring effect until the world deals with the source of these problems, being Iran on the Shia side and, much more so, Saudi Arabia on the Sunni side as supporters and exporters of terror, along with some significant sideline players such as Pakistan.

It is futile to try to kill a snake by throwing pebbles at it. You have to break its back or, better still, cut its head off.

JR*
03-27-2015, 07:50 AM
What was it that the late Chairman Mao said - "All power comes down the barrel of a gun". If you are the moderate having the gun pointed at you, you are unlikely to ignore it. In the longer term, the "barrel of a gun" analysis has its problems but, in the short term ... JR.

Rising Sun*
03-27-2015, 10:35 AM
What was it that the late Chairman Mao said - "All power comes down the barrel of a gun". If you are the moderate having the gun pointed at you, you are unlikely to ignore it. In the longer term, the "barrel of a gun" analysis has its problems but, in the short term ... JR.

Try this local Islamic school principal's analysis for one that has problems. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/the-dangers-of-feeding-lies-to-muslim-children-20150325-1m70ba.html

This confected idiocy does as much, probably more, damage to local Muslims genuinely opposed to ISIS and jihadists than do ISIS and jihadists.

It reinforces suspicions by many of us, based on a couple of decades or so of statements by Muslim leaders to their own people which contradict their increasingly improved public relations gloss, that they are not fully loyal to Australia and operate in some anti-Western fantasy which perpetuates their notion of victimhood at the hands of the West, including Australia as their host country, rather than the reality that their overseas co-religionists are much more the victims of their Muslim brothers and sisters in Muslim nations.

Meanwhile, Saudi Arabia astonishes the world by actually taking up arms in its own interests against the Yemeni insurgency. Admittedly, the Houthis in Yemen are Shias and obviously deserving of attack by the Wahabi Saudis, who oddly enough respond to the much greater Sunni ISIS threat by merely building a fence to keep them out. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/saudiarabia/11344116/Revealed-Saudi-Arabias-Great-Wall-to-keep-out-Isil.html

It would be nice if all we had to do to keep out the likes of ISIS and sundry jihahists was to build a fence.

gumalangi
03-28-2015, 04:19 AM
Try this local Islamic school principal's analysis for one that has problems. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/the-dangers-of-feeding-lies-to-muslim-children-20150325-1m70ba.html

This confected idiocy does as much, probably more, damage to local Muslims genuinely opposed to ISIS and jihadists than do ISIS and jihadists.


I wonder sometimes on western Muslim community, they like to mingle on constipation theory, really,. i meant,. it just hard to us- the common Muslim- to digest, who think they re got more knowledge on international affair than us.

About the Stayan's PM,. yeah i was wonder myself, why would he put our relation in jeopardy only for couple of drug smugglers. We have been in good terms in relation to fight against terrorism especially after the Bali blast,. twice, and this continue on immigration issue.

Rising Sun*
03-28-2015, 06:36 AM
I wonder sometimes on western Muslim community, they like to mingle on constipation theory, really,. i meant,. it just hard to us- the common Muslim- to digest, who think they re got more knowledge on international affair than us.

Your comment raises some interesting issues.

First, Muslims who come to Western countries must be aware that they are coming to cultures, societies, economies and legal systems just about the opposite of the various systems which operate in the different Islamic nations.

Second, those Muslim immigrants have chosen to reject their old countries for opposite ones to which they come.

Third, I suspect that, as with many other migrations from different cultures (e.g. Italians and Yugoslavs immediately post-war to Australia) they end up falling into different types of migrant. One type adopts the new country as their home for the rest of their lives and, without necessarily abandoning their own culture in the new land, fits in to the new society. The other type lives in a ghetto, whether geographic or cultural, and tries to re-create the old country in the new one, as has happened notably in parts of France and Britain. The second type is never going to be happy in the new country.

Fourth, the second type often has ambitions of making their fortunes in the new country and returning to retire in the old country. What they don't realise in many cases is that, as with many Southern European post-WWII migrants to Australia, the land they left thirty or forty years before has moved on and they've been maintaining a culture that doesn't exist any more in their homeland. Simple example is many Italians and Greeks who returned to their countries from Australia in the 1980s or so and found to their horror that, for example, girls were going out alone and wearing mini-skirts while the migrants in Australia had been maintaining strict controls on their daughters around the same time.

Fifth, applying the foregoing to some Muslims who have migrated to the West, they, like some post-WWII Southern European migrants to Australia, are shocked by the culture and conduct in their new country. This encourages them to reject and despise the society and people of their new country while staying in it because it is a lot better than their old country.

The result is that there are in various migrant communities in the West, and not just Muslim ones, elements which are hostile to the community in which they live and unrealistic about the communities they left for a better life in the West.

If we go back about a century, there were Irish Catholic elements in Australia which weren't all that different to some Muslim elements here now, in the sense that those Irish in Australia were an alien people and a distrusted religion in a Protestant dominated nation who demonstrated their disloyalty by support for armed Irish insurrection against the English which was seen by the Protestant majority in Australia and England as coming in part from their Catholic loyalty to a foreign Pope.



About the Stayan's PM,. yeah i was wonder myself, why would he put our relation in jeopardy only for couple of drug smugglers. We have been in good terms in relation to fight against terrorism especially after the Bali blast,. twice, and this continue on immigration issue.

He's not putting our relations in jeopardy for a couple of drug smugglers.

There have been sustained efforts by other Australian politicians and diplomats to avoid the executions, and they have been conducted with and received by Indonesia in proper fashion, as are Indonesia's efforts to oppose its own citizens being executed in other countries.

Abbott puts the relationship in jeopardy because he is a clumsy, big mouthed, blustering, bullying fool who should be kept in a dark soundproofed room with no communication with the outside world to prevent him doing more damage inside and outside Australia. Indonesia got off lightly compared with his idiotic attack on Russia and Putin http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/russian-official-mocks-tony-abbott-after-threat-to-shirtfront-vladimir-putin-20141014-115pp0.html and, as the self-proclaimed Prime Minister for Indigenous People, on indigenous people who want to live on their traditional lands http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/mar/15/tony-abbott-refuses-to-apologise-for-lifestyle-choices-comments

Abbott's stupid comments on the drug smugglers, linking the executions to foreign aid to Indonesia, etc managed to damage the good work and good relations between ministers and agencies in Australia and Indonesia on a range of issues. As you, and I hope other informed Indonesians, will see from his conduct as illustrated in the links above, the man is a loose cannon who narrowly survived a recent attempt by dissidents in his own party to remove him as Prime Minister and learnt nothing from it so far as continuing his bullying style. http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tony-abbott-decision-to-dump-philip-ruddock-after-spill-motion-angers-backbench-20150214-13ekeh.html

JR*
03-30-2015, 05:53 AM
So Saudi is building a "Rabid-Proof Fence" to keep ISIL out of its northern territories ? A bit rich, coming from the Saudis in any event. Also, have the Saudis not noticed that this approach to excluding the barbarians has seldom worked, especially in recent times. It is not just the "democratic" West that often finds itself ruled by idiots.

As regards Mr Mallak - apart altogether from the radicalization point, he seems to be committing a more fundamental crime against education, that of failing to assimilate his students into the principles of sound thinking. What he seems to be peddling is a species of pernicious double-think propped up by truisms incorporating "fundamental" logical fallacies and double-think, unfounded self-supporting (that is, unsupported and often insupportable) arguments. Encouraging young people, anywhere, to adopt this type of thinking is abominable. I know that this is an unsupported/insupportable unhistorical observation - but I rather think that the great Muslim scholars of old Baghdad and Cordoba would have agreed with me. In sadness, JR.