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Chevan
06-02-2012, 12:32 PM
Damn,where this world roll?
I was just peacefully sitting and reading wiki this evening- and suddenly, BANG..
Sexual slavery in Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_crimes_against_ethnic_Poles#Sexual_slavery)

While mass rapes were committed by German forces on Jewish women and girls, beginning with the Invasion of Poland in September 1939 they were also committed en masse against non-Jewish Polish women and girls, including during mass executions of ethnic Polish citizens, when rapes were carried-out before shooting the women. Additionally, large numbers of Polish women were captured with the aim of forcing them into serving in German military brothels. Mass raids were reported, made by Nazi forces in Polish cities with the express aim of capturing young women, who later were forced to work in brothels attended by German soldiers and officers. Girls as young as 15 years old, who were ostensibly classified as "suitable for agricultural work in Germany", were forced to work as prostitutes for German soldiers at their place of destination.

I want to ask you ALL?WTF?
Like most of people i was sure that German army was most disciplined army of the war.No mass rapings no any other violation and violence except caused by the criminal orders of command.How this happend , non of us , told about mass rapings and child prostitutes in Poland?I swear, nothing heard about this.Shame for me..
One of two: either somebody re-write the history faster than we can adopt ( begin with a WIKI) , or there is exist the sort of conspiracy in our forum.

Egorka
06-02-2012, 01:20 PM
Like most of people i was sure that German army was most disciplined army of the war.No mass rapings no any other violation and violence except caused by the criminal orders of command.To my knowledge, Sander and Johr (two authors who popularized number of 2M raped by RKKA in Germany) estimated in the same work the number of rapes by Wehrmacht in USSR at 10 million.

I honestly doubt both of the estimates.

Chevan
06-02-2012, 01:41 PM
To my knowledge, Sander and Johr (two authors who popularized number of 2M raped by RKKA in Germany) estimated in the same work the number of rapes by Wehrmacht in USSR at 10 million.

I'm puzzled why such a theme as wermacht rapings is almost totally ignored in historical scholarship , although its quite bold mentioned in Wiki?!!

Egorka
06-02-2012, 03:32 PM
I am not sure it is ignored completely.
F.ex. German documentary "Frauen als Beute - Wehrmacht und Prostitution" (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=898246408094898839)

pdf27
06-02-2012, 05:58 PM
I suspect it's a reflection of how bad the other crimes of the German armed forces were - if you have say 10 million murders and 5 million rapes, which is going to get most of the attention?

downwithpeace
06-03-2012, 06:05 AM
Even the most disciplined army will revert to barbarism when the people around them are classed as sub-human, given the extent of other activities such as genocide rape might not have been high on the punishment list after the war making it lesser known.

I'm going to assume the situation was different in Western occupied countries, no mass rapes and forced prostitution or any where near the Eastern scale.

ptimms
06-03-2012, 08:23 AM
I do not want to get into an "their crimes were worse than ours" debate. So I'll just post this link which is about all sexual violence on the Eastern Front but does detail a scale of rape and sexual slavery very rarely alluded to on the German side. Please look at my other documents too you might find something interesting.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/89860120/Victims-Heroes-Survivors-Sexual-Violence-on-the-Eastern-Front-During-World-War-II

Chevan
06-03-2012, 01:32 PM
Even the most disciplined army will revert to barbarism when the people around them are classed as sub-human, given the extent of other activities such as genocide rape might not have been high on the punishment list after the war making it lesser known.

Yes , of course , this behaviour fully might be determined by racial ideology's terms .What sense to count the raped sub-human , if they even didn't try to count a murdered ones? I just can't understand the phenomenon - why the contemporary historians don't even try to research this "dark theme"- the Wermacht rapings on the East.If , as Wiki claims there were a mass rapes begining with a Poland in 1939 - why we have not a decumented scholarship books like today we have about Germany?

Chevan
06-03-2012, 01:35 PM
I do not want to get into an "their crimes were worse than ours" debate. So I'll just post this link which is about all sexual violence on the Eastern Front but does detail a scale of rape and sexual slavery very rarely alluded to on the German side. Please look at my other documents too you might find something interesting.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/89860120/Victims-Heroes-Survivors-Sexual-Violence-on-the-Eastern-Front-During-World-War-II
Wow, so much testimonies. Needs a time to study. Thanks ptimms.

ptimms
06-03-2012, 03:37 PM
Your welcome.

Germany was our ally and the Soviets our "enemy" by the late 40's. Who wanted to drag up the fact that the Wehrmacht had raped and pillaged. The number of brothels is also alarming, even more so the Nazi's theory that without brothels the Army would "turn" Homosexual!! This work is a worthy study needing wider reading.

downwithpeace
06-03-2012, 05:28 PM
Yes , of course , this behaviour fully might be determined by racial ideology's terms .What sense to count the raped sub-human , if they even didn't try to count a murdered ones? I just can't understand the phenomenon - why the contemporary historians don't even try to research this "dark theme"- the Wermacht rapings on the East.If , as Wiki claims there were a mass rapes begining with a Poland in 1939 - why we have not a decumented scholarship books like today we have about Germany?

The Allies might have done a combination of things leading to the general lack of knowledge (intentionally or unintentionally), lack of prosecution during the Nuremberg Trials, need to embrace West Germany as an Ally in the later 40's, location not under Western control.
The Soviets on the other hand might not have wanted such information to be freely known, if they were to publicly acknowledge it then they would have had questions regarding their own troops.

Who can say for sure.

Chevan
06-04-2012, 12:10 AM
Germany was our ally and the Soviets our "enemy" by the late 40's. Who wanted to drag up the fact that the Wehrmacht had raped and pillaged..
Yes , but despite this fact, the german ally was charged in numerious crimes against jews!The Holocaust , most of victims ( up to 90%) were the Eastern european jews , is one of the most documented and studied theme of ww2.As we know the most terrible death-camps were built in Poland.The GErmany has been obligated to pay an big compensation to jewish organisation and Israeli jews.The both east and west is filled up by the literature about holocaust.
While the crimes against eastern non-jews seems, sort of taboo in the western science.IS it possible?

Chevan
06-04-2012, 12:27 AM
The Allies might have done a combination of things leading to the general lack of knowledge (intentionally or unintentionally), lack of prosecution during the Nuremberg Trials, need to embrace West Germany as an Ally in the later 40's, location not under Western control.

Well i heard about " selective justice" over estern-front nazis criminal on the west ( but , honestly , explained it by the soviet propogand). If to re-phrase the known statement - "The writting of history is a continuation of policy". But i wonder - the Poland is good western ally more then 10 years ( since 1999 member of NATO). Has anything changed?I've just checked it out, the WIKI link only for few humble polish sources ( in polish) about mass rapings of poles by Wermacht.No serious scholarship sorces there, except few terrible testimonies.

Chevan
06-04-2012, 12:43 AM
Meanwhile i found an polish site about ethnic purges near Danzig. There were organized the dozen of concentration camp for non-german civils in september of 1939.
http://web.archive.org/web/20071029144245/http://www.kki.net.pl/~museum/rozdz3,2.htm
Google translation ( from polish to english)


here were 19 such camps, were in the following cities: Bydgoszcz, Allahabad, Chelmno, Dorposz Noble, Stone Krajeński, Karolina, Lipno, Łobżenica, Nakło, New Skarszewy So near, New on the Vistula, Piastoszyn, Plutowo, Sępolno Krajeńskie Solec Kujawski, Tuchola, Wąbrzeźno, Wolental near Skórcz, Wyrzysk. Imprisoned in these camps, Poles (both men and women and youth) in the vast majority were brutally murdered. Descriptions of the few witnesses who almost miraculously escaped death, chilling. Being shot finished off blades, rifle butts, and sometimes even buried alive. Mother forced to lay in pits dug their children, and then they beeing shot themselves. Before being shot girls and women were raped. Polish accounts of these atrocities are confirmed in the German documents. They aroused horror even among the Germans, including some soldiers. For example, the crimes committed in October 1939 in Swiecie, where he shot the Poles and the Jewish population in the local camp, the two witnesses of these crimes - atrocities outraged soldiers of the Wehrmacht made a report, which is preserved in the German archives. Some sadistic perpetrators of crimes, such as in Starogard and Łobżenicy, stood before the German courts and received convictions, but by the end of 1939 were included in the amnesty issued specifically for Hitler.

Would be interesting to watch those german documents.

Chevan
06-04-2012, 01:31 AM
Here is another interesting source (http://www.holocaust-history.org/wehrmacht-complicity/wehrmacht-complicity-2.shtml), connecter to holocaust in Poland


Crimes Against Unarmed Civilians

The Wehrmacht’s treatment of unarmed civilian Poles ranged anywhere from plundering, to rapes, to outright murder. A report dated just 16 days after the invasion highlights an incident in which a Polish girl just 16 years old was forcibly raped by two soldiers in her parents’ bedroom. In another case, three soldiers broke into a house late at night and pistol-whipped members of the family in their beds. They then proceeded to rape the 20-year-old daughter at gunpoint in front of her family, eventually leaving with several of their material possessions.In the latter case, the soldiers were reported as having been arrested by field officers, but the unruliness of Wehrmacht soldiers in instances of rape was rampant in field reports.

Chevan
06-04-2012, 02:13 AM
More deep article of american author
"Victims, Heroes, Survivors: Sexual Violence on the Eastern Front During World War II" (http://www.swinginhepcats.com/World_War_II/Victims_Heroes_Survivors.html)

During the great upheaval on the eastern front, unarmed civilians experienced a range of forms of sexual violence and coercion. Based on research in archives of the German military, it is clear that the German army maintained an extensive system of brothels all over occupied eastern Europe. The deliberate deprivation of life-sustaining resources and the starvation of civilians led to a less obvious, but altogether important tragedy: the willingness of many to exchange live-saving materials only with those desperate enough to sell their bodies. Prostitution and prostitutional relationships, in which a woman or girl (or occasionally a man or boy) became someone’s lover with the expectation that she could save herself and her family, flourished and caused widespread disease. In my venereal disease chapter, largely based on German occupation documents, I emphasize the incredible effort the Germans put into controlling men’s sexual activities by offering classes, lectures, and pamphlets on the duties of a good soldier and on the dangers of disease. Despite the shortage of rubber, free condoms were always available. Men were required to have themselves sanitized before and after sexual intercourse, and the “morality police” hunted down and arrested “sources of infection” (females suspected of having infected a soldier), who were forced into a gynecological examination and, if necessary, treatment.

Because of the lack of efficient treatment options, venereal disease was considered a threat to Germany’s military capabilities. Primarily in response to disease, but also out of the belief that men “need” sex, the Germans established, maintained, and documented hundreds of military brothels throughout the Reich and forced thousands to serve, either by starvation or by gunpoint. German wartime documents reveal discussions about the lack of compliance with regulations surrounding sanitation and the use of condoms, about the levels of disease, the organization of and need for brothels, the long lines at the brothels, and the workloads of the women and girls.

Organizing such a system varied from region to region. In some cases German authorities set up new brothels, and in others they took over brothels that already existed. The army medical staff attempted to ensure the absence of disease by regular examinations of the females, by the requiring the use of condoms and the sanitation of men before and after intercourse. Usually the field commander was in charge of the brothels in his area, and he worked with company and sanitation officers. Sometimes a control system was built from scratch, but despite having to register prostitutes, find houses, beds, bedding, complete paperwork and other details, the men clearly seem to have managed to get what they wanted. For example, in the spring of 1940 military authorities agreed with the civil administration in Poland that “where there was need” brothels would be opened. By October, the chief sanitation officer wrote that the establishment of Wehrmacht brothels – on a very large scale – was absolutely essential, and that already in most large cities brothels were established or were planned.

Various methods were used to staff the brothels, including the recruitment of those who already were sex workers. Others were forced to work as prostitutes, and still others were brought from camps, such as Ravensbrück. The women and girls were of different backgrounds, including Jews, Balts, and Slavs. The evidence points to a horrifying workload. I found documents attesting to brothels in which the women and girls serviced between twenty-four and forty-five men a day. According to a 1942 German military report from Poland, between 120 and 150 men came each day to the Wehrmacht brothel in Lublin, where only four or five "girls" worked. In July 1943 the monthly visitor numbers for the brothels in Lublin and Cholm were 2820 and 4081, respectively. These and other examples are found in German documents and portray an inconceivable physical and psychological demand that was placed on the women and girls.

The German state also established brothels in camps, primarily used by prisoners, and in towns all over the occupied areas. In this chapter I integrate recent research with additional records, primarily on the brothel in Buchenwald. In addition to brothels documented by others, I found references in German wartime documents to military brothels in eighteen different Polish cities, references to two brothels in Ukraine, and to brothels in Russia and the Baltic. This list does not include camp brothels, brothels in the west, an investigation of sources that state that brothels were in “most major cities,” or references from novels. Historian Christa Paul conservatively estimated that a minimum of 34,140 women worked in German state-run brothels. But this number is extremely low, considering that it does not include the brothels for foreign and slave laborers from 1943 to 1945, for the Wehrmacht from 1943 to 1945, for the SS for the entire war, nor the brothels I have documented. Thus, it seems apparent that many more women than Paul estimated worked in the system of military prostitution, and the extensive documentation calls to question the dearth of scholarship on the topic.

Sexual violence was not limited to military brothels. Civilians were raped and mutilated, and often died as a result of their mistreatment. Less documented than the rapes of Germans by Soviet men are the rapes by members of the German army. A few instances are documented in court cases, and many references exist in memoirs, testimonies, and novels. Oral histories I collected in Ukraine revealed many more cases. Punishment was rare. Especially in Slavic areas, the Germans also did not consider rape a crime. The Red Army viewed the rape of a civilian, Soviet, Polish, Slav, or German, as a well-deserved indulgence. Although rape was not a formal military tactic by either army, there was a tacit understanding that men had a right to rape. Partisans also were known to rape. These examples support the notion that many women were victims of rape, and that females in general feared sexual violence, less so from members of a particular military or cultural group, but from armed men in general, emphasizing the importance of gender.

Despite the great diversity of experiences, the irony in trying to make sense of all the combinations of perpetrators and victims is that the perpetrators were frequently intoxicated. Based on an array of archival sources, including memoirs, testimonies, German police reports, and several rape cases, it is clear that the consumption of alcohol was widespread and contributed to the ubiquity of sexual violence. With alcohol people were more willing to break regulations, such as the Rassenschande laws, and they could have experienced heightened sexual desire. With alcohol, one’s beliefs could have become more or less accentuated. Since the differentiations between, for example, Jew, Orthodox Russian, or Latvian, did not always involve obvious external distinctions, alcohol would have rendered it even more difficult for perpetrators to calculate who the person was.

Concerning race, there are no easy answers to why one rapist raped a certain female, or why members of the German army recruited any particular female into a brothel. Despite the common argument that Jews did not experience widespread sexual violence because of the racial laws, it is clear that for Jews sexual coercion and violence was a reality – either in the form of fearing it, watching it, running from it, or falling victim to it. German documents from military leaders, SS officers, and even Himmler reveal Jews and Slavs in military brothels and widespread sexual relationships with locals. The constant in the many examples is that there were armed males and unarmed females, affirming that rape and other kinds of sexual violence need to be understood as crimes of gender. Violations of racial laws by Germans were widespread, and the Soviets seem to have raped indiscriminately, Slavs and Balts alike. Both sides raped females, whether Jewish or Christian.

.

ptimms
06-04-2012, 02:56 AM
I think during the Cold war we were happy to blame the Nazi's. Crimes were blamed on the SS, the Einsatzkommando's, the Gestapo but as we needed the West German Army the myth of the "clean" Wehrmacht grew up. Let's face it many were serving in the Bundeswehr what was to be gained by tarnishing their reputation.

JR*
06-05-2012, 07:10 AM
Good point, ptimms. A major problem I have, for example, with the view that the Waffen-SS were "just like other/ordinary soldiers" (per Paul Hausser etc.) is, not that it prompts questions about how the Waffen-SS (or some of its units) behaved, but how "ordinary soldiers" in general behave. War has always been a brutal business for all concerned and, in history, there has been no shortage of convenient myths developed to make a post-war present more manageable. Best regards, JR.

Chevan
06-06-2012, 02:57 AM
Good point, ptimms. A major problem I have, for example, with the view that the Waffen-SS were "just like other/ordinary soldiers" (per Paul Hausser etc.) is, not that it prompts questions about how the Waffen-SS (or some of its units) behaved, but how "ordinary soldiers" in general behave. War has always been a brutal business for all concerned and, in history, there has been no shortage of convenient myths developed to make a post-war present more manageable. Best regards, JR.
Do you mean ordinary soldier behaved much like like ordinary SS in many cases?

Chevan
06-06-2012, 06:40 AM
Polish site (http://www.wprost.pl/ar/105285/Seksualne-niewolnice-III-Rzeszy/?O=105285&pg=0)
writes. Google translation.


Sex slaves of the Third Reich
Number: 17/18/2007 (1270)
Hundreds of thousands of women forced into prostitution for the Germans and their allies during World War II
Passage for German soldiers call a long passage under high building complex, which leads to the New World and in the vicinity of Jerusalem Avenue . Uniformed Germany wander about in the passage and critical eyes scan the women and girls between the ages of 15 to 25 years.
One of the soldiers pulls out a pocket flashlight and shines it one of the women boldly in the face. We turn to the blade, expressing weariness and resignation of the two faces of women. The first one can count about 30 years.
"What this old whore still here after?" - One of three soldiers laughing her face.
"Bread, sir" - asks the woman.
"Kick in the *** you can get, but no bread" - responded soldier.
The owner flashlight directs light back on our faces and figures of the girls. The most recent count maybe 15 years old, the oldest about 18th The youngest of three girls detachable coat and prying paws her body. "This is great for bed" - he said. I can not imagine what a girl feels and which sounds like an animal at the market "- wrote in 1942, Swiss driver of the Red Cross mission Franz Mawick.
Prostitution and sexual violence under occupation, until recently, was a taboo among historians. Only noisy affair with sex slaves of Japanese troops who were kidnapped into brothels from Korea and China, has made some historians interested in the problem in occupied Europe. Applications are no less shocking. American historian Wendy Jo Gertjejanssen from the University of Minnesota in the work of "Sexual Violence on the Eastern Front During World War II," argues that sexual violence by military and police forces of the Third Reich was widespread.
first cases of rape were recorded in September 1939 when German invasion of Poland. German historian Jochen Böhler in the monograph " war of attrition - the Wehrmacht in Poland," writes about the order issued by the Chief Army headquarters, where attention is paid to "offenses against the civilian population in occupied areas, including cases of rape."
February 6, 1940 The Wehrmacht commander Walther von Brauchitsch directed Johannes von Blaskowitz reported. It protested against the "mass rapes, looting and murders" committed by soldiers of Hitler in Poland. Von Blazkowitz was removed from office, and 4 October 1939, the all perpetrators of rape and murder were covered by the amnesty. There is only one known case of punishing the perpetrators of sexual violence in Poland. The case concerned a gang rape, which committed on 27 September 1939, three privates in Busko Zdrój during raids on Jewish family Kaufmanów. But they were not convicted for rape, but "race defilement".
Seems the polish historians agreed the theme was not so popular till the most recent time.

Nickdfresh
06-06-2012, 09:18 AM
Good point, ptimms. A major problem I have, for example, with the view that the Waffen-SS were "just like other/ordinary soldiers" (per Paul Hausser etc.) is, not that it prompts questions about how the Waffen-SS (or some of its units) behaved, but how "ordinary soldiers" in general behave. War has always been a brutal business for all concerned and, in history, there has been no shortage of convenient myths developed to make a post-war present more manageable. Best regards, JR.

I recall a very controversial exhibit in Berlin (IIRC) that featured atrocity photos of regular Heer soldiers conducting mass killings and the like. It took place somewhere around the mid-1990s and sparked much outrage in Germany...

Anybody recall this?

Wiki does have an entry on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrmachtsausstellung

A film is also available on the Exhibit on Youtube. (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Der+unbekannte+Soldat+%28The+ unknown+soldier%29+by+Michael+Verhoeven&oq=Der+unbekannte+Soldat+%28The+unknown+soldier%29 +by+Michael+Verhoeven&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=youtube.12...2048.2048.0.3133.1.1.0.0.0.0.178 .178.0j1.1.0...0.0.KOp8YP2dp88)

Chevan
06-06-2012, 11:57 PM
I remember and even posted the links on video few years back in forum.

Kovalski
06-07-2012, 03:44 AM
That thread reminded me that once as a teenager I heard a story of my close relative raped by two Germans. She was 15 then.
Obviously, no details. Another taboo in family's history.

pdf27
06-08-2012, 05:54 AM
I recall a very controversial exhibit in Berlin (IIRC) that featured atrocity photos of regular Heer soldiers conducting mass killings and the like. It took place somewhere around the mid-1990s and sparked much outrage in Germany...Anybody recall this?From what I remember there were some fairly glaring errors with the research. Couple this with the fact that a lot of this was things people didn't want to hear...IMHO the biggest war crime was one that gets very little attention. In the planning for Barbarossa, it became apparent that the logistics would be insufficient to provide a force of the size they were sending with food and munitions. Therefore, they cold-bloodedly decided that rather than weaken the attacking force they would take food from Soviet civilian stocks to make up the difference. As a result, a very large number of civilians in the occupied areas (I've got a vague feeling might have been over a million, but can't remember) starved to death.

Chevan
06-09-2012, 12:02 AM
That thread reminded me that once as a teenager I heard a story of my close relative raped by two Germans. She was 15 then.
Obviously, no details. Another taboo in family's history.
Strange to hear this , coz as i know the polish Institute of National Remembrance very carefully counts up all the crimes against poles( even the cases of deportations) . We still hasn't seen any documented researches . May it depend on political reasons?

Kovalski
06-09-2012, 01:59 AM
Strange to hear this , coz as i know the polish Institute of National Remembrance very carefully counts up all the crimes against poles( even the cases of deportations) . We still hasn't seen any documented researches . May it depend on political reasons?

I think it's quite difficult to present exact number of all the rapes that took place during 6 years of war.
Maybe Russia's archives contain such detailed information but it remains top secret for some reason. State's security?

Chevan
06-09-2012, 05:28 AM
Maybe Russia's archives contain such detailed information but it remains top secret for some reason. State's security?
Hardly. I think the criminal rapes-case statistic on occuped by Wermach territories was mainly lost ( if it ever recordered by colloborated "Police") Plus as it was pointed out - if the german occupational authorities didn't consider the rapes of slavs like a crime, hardly such cases had been even counted.We may just to collect the humble memours and rare testimonies of survived.

Truce
06-09-2012, 09:22 PM
…Just a quick question, I recently was reading a personal account that described these German run facilities where woman were forced to have sex with solders. Sort of like the brothels but in Germany alone and for the specific purpose of increasing the population. Any one else familiar with this, I can’t remember the details but it sounded like another form of rape to me.

What about rapes committed by the allies?
Of course there was fraternization, and isolated incidences of assault, but was that pretty much all? Any numbers on this?
Not trying to start some argument about who was better or worse regarding atrocities, but asking because I need the info for a writing project.

Egorka
06-10-2012, 01:56 AM
What about rapes committed by the allies?
Of course there was fraternization, and isolated incidences of assault, but was that pretty much all? Any numbers on this?
Hello,

It has been voiced that Soviets raped 110.000 women in Berlin alone in 1945.
If you apply the same calculation principle you get 50.000 raped by Western Allies in Berlin in 1945.

Nickdfresh
06-10-2012, 09:45 AM
…Just a quick question, I recently was reading a personal account that described these German run facilities where woman were forced to have sex with solders. Sort of like the brothels but in Germany alone and for the specific purpose of increasing the population. Any one else familiar with this, I can’t remember the details but it sounded like another form of rape to me.

Sexual servitude is a form of rape...


What about rapes committed by the allies?
Of course there was fraternization, and isolated incidences of assault, but was that pretty much all? Any numbers on this?
Not trying to start some argument about who was better or worse regarding atrocities, but asking because I need the info for a writing project.

I'm assuming you mean Western Allies and instances of mass rapes where military discipline collapsed as opposed to individual criminal activities, and of course rapes were committed, although there were few moments tantamount to the meltdowns that seemed to take place in the East. In his books Day of Battle and An Army at Dawn, Rick Atkinson writes of an instance in French Colonial North Africa where U.S. Army troops go on a rampage and essentially commit mass rapes as discipline is lost. It began with the raping of the indigenous North African women, then spread wholesale to French colonists and Jews. The French Gendarme complained and some military discipline was reestablished but few, if any, of the rapists were ever brought to justice.

There were also significant instances of rape committed in Italy by French colonial troops from Morocco and Algeria commanded by apathetic French officers during the advances of 1944 leading to near clashes with adjoining U.S. and Commonwealth troops...

Truce
06-10-2012, 08:11 PM
I'm assuming you mean Western Allies and instances of mass rapes where military discipline collapsed as opposed to individual criminal activities, and of course rapes were committed, although there were few moments tantamount to the meltdowns that seemed to take place in the East. In his books Day of Battle and An Army at Dawn, Rick Atkinson writes of an instance in French Colonial North Africa where U.S. Army troops go on a rampage and essentially commit mass rapes as discipline is lost. It began with the raping of the indigenous North African women, then spread wholesale to French colonists and Jews. The French Gendarme complained and some military discipline was reestablished but few, if any, of the rapists were ever brought to justice.

There were also significant instances of rape committed in Italy by French colonial troops from Morocco and Algeria commanded by apathetic French officers during the advances of 1944 leading to near clashes with adjoining U.S. and Commonwealth troops...

Ok, helpful info, I wasn’t aware of the examples you mentioned. Thanks.

downwithpeace
06-11-2012, 08:28 AM
Going on Wiki here so...

Indian troops also raped women in Italy but it was to a lesser extent then the French colonial troops.

Interesting little bit about US troops.

Secret wartime files made public only in 2006 reveal that American GIs committed 400 sexual offences in Europe, including 126 rapes in England, between 1942 and 1945.[91] A study by Robert J. Lilly estimates that a total of 14,000 civilian women in England, France and Germany were raped by American GIs during World War II.[92][93] It is estimated that there were around 3,500 rapes by American servicemen in France between June 1944 and the end of the war and one historian has claimed that sexual violence against women in liberated France was common.

Chevan
06-12-2012, 06:53 AM
What about rapes committed by the allies?

Another one time i wonder how strongly the theme of sexual violence in ww2 is associated with allies?!

Nickdfresh
06-12-2012, 08:05 AM
Another one time i wonder how strongly the theme of sexual violence in ww2 is associated with allies?!

Less associated overall because rape was not codified, and to my knowledge our brothel workers were all volunteers...

Chevan
06-13-2012, 02:20 AM
Less associated overall because rape was not codified, and to my knowledge our brothel workers were all volunteers...
yes, but though. The publics more care about rapes of allied/red army soldiers while almost totally ignore the rapes of wermacht.

Mike1158
06-13-2012, 05:37 AM
I cannot imagine this is a new thing, nor something limited to extended wars. No doubt the news reports from libya and currently syria will be brought out in the future and atributed to a decadent regime or a lack of morals. During high stress human beings are ALL capable of heinous crimes against the person. As a trekkie I do hope we can all overcome this and other flaws, as a single sentient species.

Nickdfresh
06-13-2012, 08:53 AM
yes, but though. The publics more care about rapes of allied/red army soldiers while almost totally ignore the rapes of wermacht.

I think pdf27 was onto something earlier in this thread when he mentioned the mass killings conducted by various mechanisms of the Nazi Regime and their allies eclipsing the use of forced brothel workers, sexual extortion, and rapes along the front...

Truce
06-13-2012, 11:08 AM
Interesting little bit about US troops. Secret wartime files made public only in 2006 reveal...

Wow that IS interesting. Going to Google it an find out more… thx

Vonss
10-12-2012, 05:41 AM
Oh dear, Germans can't take a break, can they now? What about the Russians? After WWII, no one hears that the Russians help invade Poland do you now? or that fact was Russia was allied with Hitler. Russians raped and murdered too! I am pretty sure the polish were more scared of the Russians then the Germans. If I recall rightly, the polish would rather be caught by Germans rather than the Russians.

What about confederation American soldiers raping black women and enslaving them? And the Japanese in WWII? What about the British taking more than half of the world? bombing of two german cities vertually after WWII ended?

oh that is right, the bad old evil Germans that commit the only war crimes in WWII and the so good Allies and Russia that does no war crimes whats so ever in any time period.

I see right through the Allies and what they represented and I don't buy their Bull Sh/t whats so ever!

Nickdfresh
10-12-2012, 07:41 AM
Vonss, if you do some quick searches using the site search or Google, you'll find all the above has been discussed here and that this issue is to give balance and perspective to the mass rapes committed by Soviet follow on rear echelon forces in Germany and Eastern Europe...

Vonss
10-16-2012, 11:56 PM
Thank you.

I was just adding my two cents, If I may?

Chevan
10-17-2012, 12:23 AM
Oh dear, Germans can't take a break, can they now? What about the Russians? After WWII, no one hears that the Russians help invade Poland do you now? or that fact was Russia was allied with Hitler. Russians raped and murdered too!
Yes this true as well.
But you're forgetting to add the poles themself raped and murdered (http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?9900-Murdering-of-Volksdeutsche-in-Poland-in-1939)?!


What about confederation American soldiers raping black women and enslaving them? And the Japanese in WWII? What about the British taking more than half of the world? bombing of two german cities vertually after WWII ended?

as i started those theme has been studied and reported more or less good. The infor are avialable in net.But wermach raping is like sort of mystery in a west. So we have an weird situation- the nazis ideology looks like "high-moral" which teached the disciplined solldiers, banned them to rape anybody, but letting them to kill as much race inferior civils as they wish. This dilemma border me. Why the western historiography so carefully study the construction of Gas chambers- they has no time (or will) to descover the less terrible crimes like rapings. Or we have admit that the german army actually was the most disciplined army in ww2 and , by the such way, they ideology wasn't that bad..

Nickdfresh
10-17-2012, 09:07 AM
Yes this true as well.
But you're forgetting to add the poles themself raped and murdered (http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?9900-Murdering-of-Volksdeutsche-in-Poland-in-1939)?!

as i started those theme has been studied and reported more or less good. The infor are avialable in net.But wermach raping is like sort of mystery in a west. So we have an weird situation- the nazis ideology looks like "high-moral" which teached the disciplined solldiers, banned them to rape anybody, but letting them to kill as much race inferior civils as they wish. This dilemma border me. Why the western historiography so carefully study the construction of Gas chambers- they has no time (or will) to descover the less terrible crimes like rapings. Or we have admit that the german army actually was the most disciplined army in ww2 and , by the such way, they ideology wasn't that bad..

Chevan, I don't think most in the West tend to think the Germans were very nice while occupying the conquered parts of the Soviet Union and the assumption is the war crimes were many and it is acknowledged the Soviets sustained a massive population drop as the result of murders, starvation, and exposure. The assumption in the West has little to do with ideology perhaps other than the Wehrmacht would not have been allowed to have sexual relations with the untermensch to prevent pregnancies. But the study here is from a Western source...

Chevan
10-17-2012, 09:18 AM
Are you drunk again?
Did i write about ideology?

Nickdfresh
10-17-2012, 10:27 AM
Are you drunk again?

Um, no. It's 11:30AM EST here. So no, I am not drunk. Are you cross with me? Did I say something personal or something?


Did i write about ideology?

Um, yes, you did:


...the nazis ideology looks like "high-moral"...

Chevan
10-17-2012, 01:18 PM
Um, yes, you did:
Then seems i drunk myself..:)

Nickdfresh
10-17-2012, 01:45 PM
Then seems i drunk myself..:)

I'll be joining you soon.. :)

Vonss
10-17-2012, 11:43 PM
quote But you're forgetting to add the poles themselves raped and murdered?! End Quote.

I wasn't aware. Who did they rape?

quote. yes, but though. The publics more care about rapes of allied/red army soldiers while almost totally ignore the rapes of wermacht. end quote.

I don't know why that is the case; but I do have a thought. Were the Soviets more brutal at raping than Germans were? Just maybe why the Soviets are pinned for this while the Germans get a get out of jail card. Its the same as end of WWII, the Soviets are known as 'the good side' 'the Allies' and Stalin is seen as a hero.

We all know, all men are cable at raping. German, Russian, American, etc... they are all bad. Did the British though?

royal744
07-17-2013, 08:50 PM
…Just a quick question, I recently was reading a personal account that described these German run facilities where woman were forced to have sex with solders. Sort of like the brothels but in Germany alone and for the specific purpose of increasing the population. Any one else familiar with this, I can’t remember the details but it sounded like another form of rape to me.


I'm sure you must be referring to the official Lebensborn program in Germany. I believe this was an SS program where unmarried German girls were paired with German soldiers - SS? - to create more Aryan demigods for the master race. It probably didn't involve girls from those inferior untermensch countries because they weren't pure enough to qualify. God forbid that any Slavic babies be born...

I thought I read somewhere that the young, unmarried madl were volunteers but also read that some of the mothers of the girls were enraged that their daughters were in this program and that the SS sponsors said that the "duty" of these girls to the nation outweighed the mothers' moral indignation.

Amazing that the hilarity of the physical appearance of Hitler, Goebbels and Himmler never occurred to the German people whose perfect blue eyes must have hazed over at the the apparition of these imperfect specimens.

Vonss
07-23-2013, 09:39 AM
In a film shot in France in 1940's, French women were very keen on Germans and very chatty to German soldiers. I have to go and dig up the film. Also, many French women got their heads shaved after WWII. But if they were raped victims, their heads would not had been shaved, so there for, French women willing had sexual intercourse with German soldiers. If Germans ever made it to England, Id expect the same thing to happened. Which a french man quoted during the German invasion commenting on German soldiers and French women, you don't need the same languages to have sex, also he mentioned; looks like we going to see many German babies here.

leccy
07-23-2013, 09:46 AM
In a film shot in France in 1940's, French women were very keen on Germans and very chatty to German soldiers. I have to go and dig up the film. Also, many French women got their heads shaved after WWII. But if they were raped victims, their heads would not had been shaved, so there for, French women willing had sexual intercourse with German soldiers. If Germans ever made it to England, Id expect the same thing to happened. Which a french man quoted during the German invasion commenting on German soldiers and French women, you don't need the same languages to have sex, also he mentioned; looks like we going to see many German babies here.

Age old saying

First we fight then we fornicate.

Germans win and occupy the land of course you will get fraternisation.

For some people in any occupied country it was a simple choice to survive or not, for others it was for an easier life while yet more did it for personal gain.

JR*
07-23-2013, 10:11 AM
Regarding consensual sex in wartime - what do you get when you throw a lot of young people together in situations in which the usual cadre of potential partners are, for whatever reason, absent ? Well, a greater or lesser degree of rape, perhaps, but also a very great deal of consensual "partnering". That's Life. Read Irene Némirovsky's "Suite Francaise" - she saw it on the ground in WW2 France. Human nature has not really changed much over a very, very long time ... Best regards, JR.

Rising Sun*
07-23-2013, 10:26 AM
First we fight then we fornicate.


The latter may be true, but the former certainly wasn't, of the Pay Corps. And Dental Corps. And sundry others.

My reading is that sexual assaults were most often in rear areas and by rear area troops.

The combat troops were otherwise engaged, and generally rather devoid of opportunities.

JR*
07-23-2013, 10:31 AM
Good point, Rising Sun*. True also, I suspect, of much of the consensual sex - perhaps even more so. My reference to "Suite Francaise" again refers. Also, the lads in the "logistics" area had much better access to goods considered useful in this context - such as tinned food and nylon stockings ... JR.

Rising Sun*
07-23-2013, 10:59 AM
Good point, Rising Sun*. True also, I suspect, of much of the consensual sex - perhaps even more so. My reference to "Suite Francaise" again refers.

Can't recall which (of several) sources I've read, but sexual assault was a significant issue in the rear areas in Normandy in the months after D Day for the Americans. There was a focus on their black troops, but I've often wondered if this reflected an accurate assessment of actual rates of offences or baseless attitudes towards and beliefs about those troops which resulted in them being disproportionately targeted compared with white troops.


Also, the lads in the "logistics" area had much better access to goods considered useful in this context - such as tinned food and nylon stockings ... JR.

Exactly the same sort of problem that occurred with friendly American troops in Britain and Australia, where they were better paid, better dressed, seeming more interesting because they came from the land presented by Hollywood, and had access to the wondrous goods of a PX which were largely denied to British and Australian women.

In some cases liaisons between Yanks and local women were acceptable, but in others they were frowned upon as being almost a form of disloyalty. Especially when the woman was supposed to have some link to a British or Australian soldier overseas.

There isn't that much difference in the case of French women associating with Germans, particularly after the Vichy government virtually approved co-operation with the Germans, except that the Germans were the victorious invaders of France rather than allied invaders.

Nickdfresh
07-23-2013, 05:35 PM
...
There isn't that much difference in the case of French women associating with Germans, particularly after the Vichy government virtually approved co-operation with the Germans, except that the Germans were the victorious invaders of France rather than allied invaders.

We should also probably factor in that a large proportion, perhaps even the majority of young Frenchmen, were interred by the Germans as POW's or forced into labor in Germany. Others of course effectively were expatriates fighting with the Free forces...

royal744
08-16-2013, 12:27 PM
"Over-paid, over-sexed, and over here..."

There was a fair amount of "partnering" in Holland too resulting in a lot of post-war head shaving, shame and misery...

steben
08-21-2013, 03:41 PM
"Over-paid, over-sexed, and over here..."

There was a fair amount of "partnering" in Holland too resulting in a lot of post-war head shaving, shame and misery...

Dutch won't like it ... still, I think I heard and read Netherlands had very high collaboration rates, higher than any Western occupied country. Dutch Waffen SS was the largest of all foreign regiments.

royal744
08-21-2013, 06:39 PM
Dutch won't like it ... still, I think I heard and read Netherlands had very high collaboration rates, higher than any Western occupied country. Dutch Waffen SS was the largest of all foreign regiments.

I have run into a fair number of British, German and Japanese "war brides" here in San Antonio. They're quite aged now, of course... and some Dutch, too...

Nickdfresh
08-22-2013, 05:46 AM
Dutch won't like it ... still, I think I heard and read Netherlands had very high collaboration rates, higher than any Western occupied country. Dutch Waffen SS was the largest of all foreign regiments.

I dunno. I think it's hard to say that categorically. I do believe the Dutch Resistance was heavily penetrated at the highest levels by the very able Abwehr in occupied Netherlands. But I've also recall the Dutch suffered food shortages and borderline famine to a greater extent of any Western European occupied power...