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View Full Version : The Paris Uprising of 1944



Nickdfresh
05-26-2012, 02:59 PM
Found this on Youtube. Some of the footage is supposedly graphic and you have to be registered to watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IboniUsVQj8&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fresults%3Fsear ch_query%3Dparis%2Buprising%2B1944%26oq%3Dparis%2B uprising%2B1944%26aq%3Df%26aqi%3D%26aql%3D%26gs_l% 3Dyoutube.3...1172.7917.0.8849.19.12.0.7.7.0.86.95 4.12.12.0...0.0.ftXtsd66yAg

Chevan
05-27-2012, 04:11 AM
Good one. I saw the simular but shorter video.
Notice the timeline - German withdrow the city most of their garrison in the beginning. The AFVs and tank marched away. The parisians , seeing the german leave the city , began disorders. Hunting the loney running germans and milicia, breaking their city while biulding the "barricades"( altough nobody going to attack them).The small german garrison just hold and points and few building. One can observe the retreat Tiger1 and passively moving loney Panther - they look so safe and peacefull that film-operator migh to shot it from close distance.Few other obsolet and later abandoned frecnch tanks- nothing serious. Yankees coming ( with Leclerk - who was an obviously just for political profanation) and began to take surrender the rest of Germans in city. Few soldiers shot from firearm( inpsite there a lot of civils around walking and watching) somewhere. So you say they calls this staged opera and hooligan's disorders warmed up by phony ( becouse it's already safe enough!!!)patriotic rhetoric as "Uprising"?;)
Did you ever seen like the real ww2 city uprising look like?Here is good one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mezxt4Wrffg) just for comparition.The full-scale military operation with heaviest armor and dive bombers.

Nickdfresh
05-27-2012, 10:12 AM
You're seeing only in the video what you want too. The Panther tanks were actually involved in trying to eject the Resistance from a major hotel IIRC. They were ineffective due to only possessing armor-piercing ammunition that essentially just made big holes and inflicted few casualties. They were lonely because the Maquis would have shot any infantry in the open...

Nickdfresh
05-27-2012, 10:14 AM
Well, the Russians weren't coming for Warsaw, it's clear they were just waiting for the Polish Home Army to be crushed as they weakened the SS pounding them and essentially preventing the Polish Government in Exile from landing in the city. Had the Poles realized this, there never would have been such an uprising...

And Eisenhower and Bradley initially wanted to by-pass Paris fearing heavy street fighting would ruin the city, it was the uprising that forced their had and gave Le Clerc his mandate...

Chevan
05-27-2012, 01:20 PM
You're seeing only in the video what you want too. The Panther tanks were actually involved in trying to eject the Resistance from a major hotel IIRC. They were ineffective due to only possessing armor-piercing ammunition that essentially just made big holes and inflicted few casualties. They were lonely because the Maquis would have shot any infantry in the open...
I see what really saw. The loney Panther was shown just slowly moved, i believ it was used to drive away and hold the distance with rebels - there were no any hint it was "actually involved in trying to eject the Resistance" . Like it was said in WIKI, Bevour's "D-DAY" and evrything else i meet.The GErmans HAS no HEAVY armor involving in counter attack on rebels.And where have you got the thought -"was ineffective due to only possessing armor-piercing ammunition".?You please don't INVENT what you would like to see in video.What sense was to take ONLY AT-shells in a tank in city?How could you know for sure they have ONLY armor-piercing ammunition? :)Even if the German garrison would like to kill somebody - they know for sure the revenge will be hard and quick.I still hasn't seen in video the bodies of killed rebels, except those uhappy dozen who have been executed previously near the wall. They surely knew the American is coming.

Chevan
05-27-2012, 01:37 PM
And Eisenhower and Bradley initially wanted to by-pass Paris fearing heavy street fighting would ruin the city, it was the uprising that forced their had and gave Le Clerc his mandate...
Heavy street fighting with whom? With loney Panther, four retarded french tanks and few handreds of Germans who feared fierced frenchmans more then the Americans?Think yourslef- if there was an real Resistence in Paris - why those members didn't informed the US command about real situation in city?The Poles, BTW, has counted all the german forces in Warsaw before the uprising. They can't know about newly arrived reservs, of cource. But they knew well the strength of wermach in city. How it happend that so called resistance didn't know anything about Germans in their city if even Eisenhower thought they will have faced the "heavy street fighting"?

Nickdfresh
05-27-2012, 07:09 PM
I see what really saw. The loney Panther was shown just slowly moved, i believ it was used to drive away and hold the distance with rebels - there were no any hint it was "actually involved in trying to eject the Resistance" . Like it was said in WIKI, Bevour's "D-DAY" and evrything else i meet.The GErmans HAS no HEAVY armor involving in counter attack on rebels.And where have you got the thought -"was ineffective due to only possessing armor-piercing ammunition".?You please don't INVENT what you would like to see in video.What sense was to take ONLY AT-shells in a tank in city?How could you know for sure they have ONLY armor-piercing ammunition? :)Even if the German garrison would like to kill somebody - they know for sure the revenge will be hard and quick.I still hasn't seen in video the bodies of killed rebels, except those uhappy dozen who have been executed previously near the wall. They surely knew the American is coming.

Um, Chevan, firstly, the Germans DID have heavy armor. Not a lot, but they had four Panthers and numerous French made "beutepanzers". The information regarding the German counterattack on of the ministries was taken straight from Beevor's two chapters on the subject. The German Panthers only had sabot rounds most likely because they were not detailed to internal security as that was what captured French AFV's were for, but were rather to be used in a last ditch defense of the city along with whatever Heer and SS forces made it back from the Seine. The Germans only suspected an uprising a few days before but weren't sure of its scope and still faced a chaotic situation of a collapsing front. Also, as I've repeated, the "yankees" initially had no intention of taking Paris, but were going to bypass it as the city had little strategic value. The Free French under Le Clerc were aware of this and were in contact with both Gaullist and Communist Resistance leaders, though I am not sure what information they shared. And of course the uprising could only take place in the face of an Allied advance, what other uprisings had any success unless they were relieved. Aside from the Warsaw Uprising, I'm only aware of one other major civil insurrection against German occupation that took place in Italy that was put down ruthlessly as the Allies weren't close enough to pressure the German garrison...

Chevan
05-28-2012, 03:58 AM
Hmmn , numerious "beutepanzers" sound too optimistic if not to say unconfirmed, like a four Panthers:)Even if Germans have a few pieces of armor- what make you to think they used it against rebels?Sorry , Nick, but you have to admit- we still have not vivid evidence of hard combat there- not casualty , no victims in video, not even serious damage of the buildings( not to count the "barricades" and other damages inflicted by "home-made warriors") . BTW , i've made an little personal investigation - the internet also has NO photos no damaged/captured Panther in Pasis 1944.If , as you claim, there were a FOUR Panther- where all they gone?Disappeared together with another "numerious "beutepanzers" ?I will no wonder if Beevour say YES:)
So." The Germans only suspected an uprising a few days before but weren't sure of its scope " Is quite disputable santence - coz Choltitz arranged a truce with rebels yet in 19 august and even offered to pass some districts for their control.But some activist has caused a mass disorders following the acts of brutality.I don't wonder the Paris milicia refuced to be disarmed - the anarchy migh cause such a bloody disasters that German occupation will be seeing like a childish dream. Still this has partly happend after while lynching witout any trial. And i agree with you that Eisenhower didn't recognize the Paris to be and worthwhile strategic aim. Like in 1940 Paris had absolutly no military value. Germans simply took as "award" after the capitulation of french army , saving the city. Just like in 1944 the GErmans had no absolutly plans to hold it - they just have evacuated most of their troops ( and about 2000 of political prisoners wuth them) OUT of there.Unlike in Warsaw- where Hilter had a hard determination to hold an city in 1944 sending there more and more troops for reinforcement.