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Kovalski
05-27-2011, 03:11 AM
Few days ago some crucial facts came to the day light. A Russian historian, Nikita Pietrov, found the documents in Russian archives which confirm that 592 polish citizens were captured and held by NKVD in July 1945 in result of Augustow Roundup. Their fate remains unknown and their bodies were never found.
Below you can find an article copied from http://www.doomedsoldiers.com/augustow-roundup.html
I'm personally interested in this story because some of the facts seem to concur with ma grandfather's experiences.


Unsolved Communist Crimes: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945 (Pol. "Oblawa Augustowska w lipcu 1945.")

The Augustow roundup was one of the most bloody mass murders committed by the Soviets on Polish citizens, after the end of the II World War. Despite that fact however, neither school books, nor encyclopedias, even mention this tragic episode in the post-World-War II history of Poland. The whereabouts of those who perished during this roundup are unknown, as is unknown their place of burial.

In July, 1945 the Red Army units supported by the communist UB (Urzad Bezpieczenstwa – The State Security), and MO (pol. Milicja Obywatelska – The People’s Milicia) conducted a grand-scale pacification in the Puszcza Augustowska [eng. Augustow Primeval Forest], and in the surrounding area. The Soviet forces combed through the forests and villages, arresting all those suspected of collaboration with the Polish Underground. During the course of the roundup, nearly 2,000 individuals were detained. Some of those returned home after being interrogated and tortured, while 600 were sent to an unknown location, never to be heard from again. This is their story.

At the outset of the II World War, the Suwalki and Augustow counties fell under control of two occupiers: the Soviets, who established hegemony over the entire county of Suwalki, along with a portion of the Augustow county, and the Nazis, who reigned over a greater portion of the Augustow county. Right from the outset of this dual occupation, the Polish population residing in this area, began to form underground organizations to resist the occupiers.

Many armed underground organizations, such as Temporary Council of Suwalki Region (pol. Tymczasowa Rada Ziemi Suwalskiej), the Pilsudski’s Legion (pol. Legion Pilsudskiego), the Near-Niemen Legion (pol. Legion Nadniemenski), and National Revival (pol. Odrodzenie Narodowe) sprang into action, and ultimately united under the banner of ZWS, the Association of Armed Struggle (pol. Zwiazek Walki Zbrojnej). The underground soldiers didn’t let the occupiers rest.

“During the time I was stationed in Augustow, we lost around 50 of our people […] the Poles were making it [the occupation] really difficult for us. It was real war.” – writes in his memoirs secretary of the Regional Committee of Belarus, which at that time (commonly known as the First Soviet Occupation), occupied this area.

After the Soviet-German war began, the infrastructure of the patriotic underground became unified under the standard of the Home Army, and was known in this area, as the Polish Insurrection Union (pol. Polski Zwiazek Powstanczy). In the beginning of Spring, 1944, the Home Army had nearly 5 thousand sworn members.

During the operation “Tempest” (pol. “Burza”), in Spring, 1944, the Home Army units had to, in large part, reveal their identities, a fact which after the Germans are ejected from the North-Eastern part of Poland, and are replaced by the Soviets, will have tragic consequences. The Home Army soldiers were arrested, and either sent to the East, or forcibly conscripted into the communist Polish People’s Army (pol. Ludowe Wojsko Polskie). These repressions considerably undermined the strength of the underground infrastructure. Only in Spring, 1945, the soldiers who hid in the forests, began to reorganize themselves into new units, and to engage the new communist regime. As a result of these activities, in the Suwalki county, the democratic underground units destroyed seventeen, out of eighteen MO (pol. People’s Militia) stations, and from among fourteen rural municipalities (pol. Gmina) created by the communists, only two functioned. Furthermore, twenty three death sentences against the communist collaborators, and dedicated “helpers” of the new “people’s government” were carried out. Equally active were units conducting activities in the Augustow county. The success of the Home Army aggravated the Polish communists, and their Soviet masters, particularly, since the Soviet Red Army, and the NKWD, who took active part against the underground units, and the population at large, became more frequent targets of the democratic underground. After the capture of Berlin and the end of the World War II, a much larger number of personnel from the UB, NKVD, and the Red Army was dispatched to conduct activities against the democratic underground. These activities were conducted mainly by the Soviets, and at the “request” of the provincial, and county “governments”.

"The Roundup of Death"
The largest “cleanup” operation against the democratic armed underground, was conducted in July, 1945, and thus, became known as either the “July Roundup”, or as the “Augustow” Roundup, as it took place in and around Augustow area. The operation was conducted mainly by the Soviet forces, including the NKWD, Smersh (Soviet acronym: "SMERt' SHpionam" - engl. Death To the Spies) and the soldiers of the 3rd Belarusian Front. The functionaries of the UB, MO, and local informers played the role of the betrayer Judas, pointing out individuals who should be arrested, serving as guides, and as interpreters, during horrific interrogations that ensued. The communist forces which took part in the roundup, amounted to nearly fifteen thousand men. The methods, and circumstances, under which arrests took place varied. The Home Army soldiers, and individuals sympathetic to them who lived in the cities, were arrested either during evenings, or at night. The inhabitants of the villages on the other hand, were dragged out of their homes, snatched from country roads, or fields.

In the village of Jaziewo, for example, all villagers were called for a meeting, and all those who showed up were arrested. Many Home Army soldiers were arrested during firefights and skirmishes that took place during the roundup. Witold Zurawski, a Home Army Soldier from Jastrzebna, near Sztabin, reminisces :

“They encircled the entire village, and there were thousands of them – the Soviet henchmen marched, as if they were attacking in a line formation. They ordered us to exit our homes, so they could check our identity papers. After that they took all of us, men and some women, and they raced us to the barn, where we were held for two weeks. I had a feeling, that I am not going to make it, and when one day they took us out, I jumped into the crop field, and I was gone. The other villagers told me later, that after two weeks, the UB men wearing plain clothes arrived. They brought with them lists [with names] of people who were to be arrested. Those arrested were transported to Sztabin, and from there, they were taken to some unknown place. They vanished into thin air, [never to be seen again].”

Those detained were jailed in various places, and often subjected to horrible tortures. From among 1,900 to 2,000 arrested, around 600 people were selected from the list, which was prepared earlier by the communist collaborators. Among those selected, were women, and 15, or 16-years old boys. According to the information obtained from the witnesses, these individuals were placed on trucks and transported towards the Soviet boarder. From that moment on, their whereabouts are unknown. Today, one thing is certain – they were murdered on orders issued by the Soviets, and their remains are located somewhere on the territory of the former USSR. The search for the missing was undertaken by their families immediately after the roundup, but the trail ended at the selection camps, where they were held for a short time. [...]

to be continued in the next post...

Kovalski
05-27-2011, 03:12 AM
The villagers from the rural municipality called Giby, were first to ask about the fate of the missing, as during 1945, 109 individuals were taken away, and among those, 90 were detained during the roundup. In November, 1945, the Giby municipality sent a delegation to Warsaw in order to locate their missing neighbors, friends, and family members. Not surprisingly , they were not given any information. During the Stalinist times, any and all information about the roundup was a taboo, and bringing this subject up, could end tragically for those who dared to ask. During the following years, the subject of the “July Roundup”, was mentioned only during the so called period of Khrushchev's Thaw, that trickled into Poland.

Only in 1987, the matter of those missing received serious attention, when Stefan Myszczynski, who lost three brothers and his step-father during the roundup, discovered graves near the road connecting Rigol and Giby. Initially, it was suspected that they contained remains of those missing from July 1945. After their examination however, it was revealed that they contained remains of German soldiers who died during the war. Impulsively, the public opinion, began to be more interested in the fate of the victims of the July Roundup, and on August 2, 1987, Obywatelski Komitet Poszukiwan Mieszkancow Suwalszczyzny Zaginionych w Lipcu 1945 [eng. The Citizen’s Committee To Locate Missing Inhabitants of the Suwalki Area Who Perished in July 1945”], was formed.

Even though, the local government forbid the Committee to conduct its activity, they refused. Its founding members, Piotr Bajer, Miroslaw Basiewicz, Stanislaw Kowalczyk (from Suwalki), along with Alicja Maciejewska, Maria Chwalibog, and Jan Krzywosz (from Warsaw), with dedication gathered information about those perished. In 1992, all information they were able to obtain was delivered to the Public Attorney’s Office in Suwalki. However, the Public Attorney’s Office dismissed the case because of lack of the evidence, and its inability to probe through the classified post-soviet-era archives.

In 2001, case files reached the Institute of National Remembrance (pol. abbr. IPN). The investigation into the Augustow murders is presently conducted by the Institute of National Remembrance — Commission for the Prosecution of Crimes against the Polish Nation. Despite the fact that some progress was made, however, neither the fate of those presumed dead, nor the identities of the perpetrators, or the location of graves, have been discovered. The resources available to the IPN prosecutor to solve this case within Poland itself, have been exhausted.

Number of requests sent to the present government of Russia, to help the investigators by providing information about operations of their units during the "July Roundup", remain unanswered! Today, many families in Giby, and other communities affected by the murderous net of the 1945 roundup, still await the truth about the fate of their husbands, sisters, and brothers … For those perished still lament with Hiob, “Oh earth, don’t conceal our blood, so our cries don’t cease ...”

Written by: Adam Bialous

Chevan
06-24-2011, 02:21 AM
Few days ago some crucial facts came to the day light. A Russian historian, Nikita Pietrov, found the documents in Russian archives which confirm that 592 polish citizens were captured and held by NKVD in July 1945 in result of Augustow Roundup. Their fate remains unknown and their bodies were never found.

Well , actually there were captured 7049 during the anti-partisan roundup of july 1945.
The Petrov found the report from Abakumov ( shief of MGB that time) to Beria.
There is the text the telegram , supposed to be the real.

В соответствии с Вашим указанием, мною утром 20 июля на самолете был направлен в г. Тройбург2 пом. нач. ГУКР СМЕРШ генерал-майор Горгонов с группой контрразведчиков для проведения ликвидации арестованных в Августовских лесах бандитов". По прибытии, - писал Абакумов, - Горгонов и начальник УКР СМЕРШ 3 Белорусского фронта генерал-лейтенант Зеленин донесли следующее: войсками 3 Белорусского фронта с 12 по 19 июля была проведена проческа этих лесов, задержаны 7049 чел. После проверки отпущено 5115 чел., из оставшихся 1934 задержанных выявлено и арестовано бандитов 844 чел., в том числе 252 литовца, которые имели связи с бандформированиями в Литве и поэтому переданы в местные органы НКВД-НКГБ Литвы. Проверяется 1090 чел., из которых 262 литовца по тем же причинам переданы в органы НКВД-НКГБ. Следовательно, арестованных на 21 июля с.г. числится всего лишь 592 чел., и задержанных, которые проверяются 828 чел. У арестованных бандитов в лесах в тайниках изъято 11 минометов, 31 пулемет, 123 автомата, винтовки, пистолеты и гранаты и 2 радиостанции.

Далее Абукумов писал:
"Если Вы найдете нужным проведение операции после такого положения, то ликвидацию бандитов намечаем провести следующим путем:

1.1. Всех выявленных бандитов, в количестве 592 человека, ликвидировать. Для этой цели будет выделен оперативный состав и батальон войск Управления "СМЕРШ" 3-го Белорусского фронта, нами уже проверенный на деле при проведении ряда контрразведывательных мероприятий.
Оперативные работники и личный состав батальона о порядке ликвидации бандитов будут тщательно проинструктированы.

2.2. При проведении операции будут приняты необходимые меры к тому, чтобы предотвратить побег кого-либо из бандитов. В этих целях, кроме тщательного инструктажа оперативных работников и бойцов батальона, участки леса, где будет проводиться операция, будут оцеплены и предварительно проведена проческа местности.
3.3. Ответственность за проведение ликвидации бандитов будет возложена на помощника начальника Главного Управления "СМЕРШ" генерал-майора Горгонова и начальника Управления Контрразведки 3-го Белорусского фронта генерал-лейтенанта Зеленина.
Т.т. Горгонов и Зеленин хорошие и опытные чекисты и эту задачу выполнят.

Остальные задержанные 828 человек будут проверены в 5-ти дневный срок, и все выявленные бандиты таким же путем будут ликвидированы. О количестве выявленных бандитов из этой группы задержанных Вам будет доложено.

Прошу Ваших указаний. Абакумов 3.



As he stated, within the action the 7049 man's were captured, 5115 have been liberated soon after short investigation .The rest 1934 were detained for supposed colloboration with "bandits" .The 844 were arrested as the members of anti-soviet rebels. From that figure the 252 rebels were found to be the member of Lutvinian anti-soviet grops. Those 252 were sent to Lutvinian GB for later investigation. Thus the only 592 polish rebels were arrested.Those fate is still unknown.
down the telegram Abakumov offer to EBria to "liquidate" this groupe. From what Petrov makes the conclusion- they all have been executed by NKVD.
As the reason of Soviet cont-partisan actions in Augustow forest Petrov wrote about systematic partisan attacks on red army troops or soviet authorities by former AK rebels in that area .In the telegram of Abakumov were mentioned the serious amount of werpon , cupruted during the roundup - 11 morters, 31 machinguns,123 submachinguns, many rifles, pistols ammos and grenades.And two radios.We still don't know how much peoples and members of pro-soviet polish administration died and suffered from the activity of AK rebels - those figures still covered. Or probably Petrov specially ignored the previous telegrams of NKVD were the incidents were reported. Anyway the harsh post war action of NKVD against local rebels were provoked by the ethnic and civil partisan war in many rural regions. The same but in larger scale were in baltic states and Western Ukraine.
BTW, Petrov mentioned that in the Augusow roundup took active part the Communist Polish People's Milicia alongside the NKVD troops.

Kovalski
06-27-2011, 06:03 PM
Thanks Chevan for more detailed info.

Anyway the harsh post war action of NKVD against local rebels were provoked by the ethnic and civil partisan war in many rural regions. The same but in larger scale were in baltic states and Western Ukraine.


I like that part - [...] the harsh post war action of NKVD against local rebels WERE PROVOKED [...]
What or who provoked NKVD to be in Augustow area?

And you're absolutely right, Communist Polish People's Militia members took active part in the roundup. That's why working in Militia was very dangerous job - plenty of those guys earned a bullet in the head - common reward for trison.

Chevan
06-30-2011, 03:04 AM
Just don't think my friend , i am trying sort of justify the NKVD action or something else..
But as i wrote the NKVD and Militia had actually prevented the MUCH MORE bloody Civil war with rebels. Just look at post war Ukraine - the UPA fought till the most 1953, murdered more then 20 000++ peoples both own Ukrainians and Russians ( army and NKVD troops). NKVD finally has fully destroyed the UPA but with much more casualties for all sides. Did UPA help to liberate Ukraine from Communism? No. But they commited manies acts of crimes toward its own population. So as i said, in many aspects the quick action in Augustow forest has prevented the possible Civil terror between Poles.592 killed is not much compared what may happend, though it sounds cynical.
As for trison/traitors. Well you maybe know that in mid 1960-70 there were up to 3 mln of members of Polish comminust party. I don't think you may call all of them - traitors. Endeed and finally the COmmunist ideology as it has turned to be the false. But i can't say for all the members of COmparty( including my father) as traitors o colloborators. In fact many members of comunist party werea honest peoples who just thought and believed the communist is the great idea .

Kovalski
07-04-2011, 05:07 AM
Just don't think my friend , i am trying sort of justify the NKVD action or something else..
But as i wrote the NKVD and Militia had actually prevented the MUCH MORE bloody Civil war with rebels. Just look at post war Ukraine - the UPA fought till the most 1953, murdered more then 20 000++ peoples both own Ukrainians and Russians ( army and NKVD troops). NKVD finally has fully destroyed the UPA but with much more casualties for all sides. Did UPA help to liberate Ukraine from Communism? No. But they commited manies acts of crimes toward its own population. So as i said, in many aspects the quick action in Augustow forest has prevented the possible Civil terror between Poles.592 killed is not much compared what may happend, though it sounds cynical.
As for trison/traitors. Well you maybe know that in mid 1960-70 there were up to 3 mln of members of Polish comminust party. I don't think you may call all of them - traitors. Endeed and finally the COmmunist ideology as it has turned to be the false. But i can't say for all the members of COmparty( including my father) as traitors o colloborators. In fact many members of comunist party werea honest peoples who just thought and believed the communist is the great idea .

Dear Chevan,
NKVD presence and activity in post-war Poland was equally justified as Polish activity in Russia during Смутное время (1598-1613). You know, Polish kings also wanted to prevent the civil war, they just wanted to help.

Regarding the traitors...
Of course it would be unfair in my opinion to call traitors all polish communist party members. Many of those people decided to join commies as they saw no other way to rebuilt the completely devastated country. They wanted organise their lives, raise the families, have babies, etc. Nobody can blame them for that.
The traitors were those, who shot other Poles without a reason, those who abuse the power, those who tortured and murdered AK members and those "judges" who sentenced heroes for death. We can create few more categories, but these are the most important.

My father was a member too. In his case it was natural way of life - to get a job after studies you had to join the party - without that there would be no flat, no job.
From the other hand, my mother never joined the party, even though she was persuaded by the secret police few times.
And finally, I never had anything against your old man ;)

Chevan
07-04-2011, 06:14 AM
Dear Chevan,
NKVD presence and activity in post-war Poland was equally justified as Polish activity in Russia during Смутное время (1598-1613). You know, Polish kings also wanted to prevent the civil war, they just wanted to help.

And i believe that..
Finally i don't think everything our states did toward each other - had been caused by the evil motives. Pobably the Polish kings have had to asist one of side in civil conflict to stop the civil war. Why not? It's still better then to believe to Kremlin's version of events about "Polish invasion".


Regarding the traitors...
Of course it would be unfair in my opinion to call traitors all polish communist party members. Many of those people decided to join commies as they saw no other way to rebuilt the completely devastated country. They wanted organise their lives, raise the families, have babies, etc. Nobody can blame them for that.
The traitors were those, who shot other Poles without a reason, those who abuse the power, those who tortured and murdered AK members and those "judges" who sentenced heroes for death. We can create few more categories, but these are the most important.

Same was in USSR.
Except may be the critical fact that you though can have a job and flat not necessary beeing the member of comparty.Neither my granddad nor my gramma was't the members but lives relatively well.One just cann't be the BOSS unless you are not a communist- this was a major rule.
As for post war rebuilt of Poland - you have to admit that though the communist had applied an anourmose efforts to mobilize the society in deciding the problems. Althought it was distorting but still effective.


My father was a member too. In his case it was natural way of life - to get a job after studies you had to join the party - without that there would be no flat, no job.
From the other hand, my mother never joined the party, even though she was persuaded by the secret police few times.
And finally, I never had anything against your old man ;)
Well my dad was a ..convictioned communist:)
he seriously think that free education and medical service made the life much better.

Kovalski
07-05-2011, 02:31 AM
Finally i don't think everything our states did toward each other - had been caused by the evil motives.

Well, the motivation was the result of our geopolitical situation. For hundreds of years the part of Europe between our countries was a place of contest. The balance of power had been changing over the years. Never ever in history none of the states considered the other side as an ally or friendly country. There was always something going on: wars, invasions, interference in internal political situation, etc.
In 1945, after Soviet forces kicked out the Nazis from Poland, they did not go home. Their presence guaranteed the safety and stability of communist regime. From liberators they turned into occupants and nobody can deny it.
NKVD was the same force which opressed polish citizens after 17/09/1939. NKVD commited Katyn Massacre, NKVD tortured and murdered thousands of Poles in thousands prisons and camps.
So, I'm afraid my friend you are wrong when saying that Soviet (and obviously NKVD's) motives were friendly or friendly-like. They were openly hostile as occupant's motives always are.

Chevan
07-06-2011, 06:32 AM
So, I'm afraid my friend you are wrong when saying that Soviet (and obviously NKVD's) motives were friendly or friendly-like. They were openly hostile as occupant's motives always are.
I understand you pain - your old enemy has come to you country and install the regime , you didn't like. Hard to argue it was occupation.
But was it so unique and exclusive for post war Poland?If to look to the concrete event- the augostow roundup.NKVD did the job. It was not a job to exterminate the poles. but to keep the order.. Remember the polonisation of Ukraine and Belorussia - the mutual terror that cost up to 20 +++ of lives during 1919-1939. Would we like that fate for post war Poland?I hope no. So in many aspects the harsh actions were the "lesser evill".

Kovalski
07-06-2011, 07:03 AM
NKVD did the job. It was not a job to exterminate the poles. but to keep the order.
"[...] As he stated, within the action the 7049 man's were captured, 5115 have been liberated soon after short investigation .The rest 1934 were detained for supposed colloboration with "bandits" .The 844 were arrested as the members of anti-soviet rebels. From that figure the 252 rebels were found to be the member of Lutvinian anti-soviet grops. Those 252 were sent to Lutvinian GB for later investigation. Thus the only 592 polish rebels were arrested.Those fate is still unknown.
down the telegram Abakumov offer to EBria to "liquidate" this groupe. From what Petrov makes the conclusion- they all have been executed by NKVD.[...]

That comes from your post above. It seems like a logic connection to me: Abakumov suggested "liquidation" - prisoners disappeared and never been found - clearly an extermination job.


So in many aspects the harsh actions were the "lesser evill".
Actions like that are called "atrocities". You can't justify genocide by the threat of possible even greater genocide or civil war, etc.
NKVD as a military force of Soviet Union comitted crimes on the citizens of another country. The Augustow Round-up was just a one of many NKVD actions in Poland.

Rising Sun*
07-06-2011, 09:30 AM
There is nothing in my comfortable experience of life which enables me to have any real understanding of the events Kovalski and Chevan are discussing, but as an outsider it seems to me that at a poltical or policy level a significant part of the problem comes from a lack of stability in the relevant geographical areas because they were carved up to suit the wants of larger powers at various times, without regard to any cultural or ethnic or linguistic or other unifying factors. Which is exactly what has led us to the current situation in the Middle East and Central Asia, where larger powers are still doing the same thing to ensure problems for the future.

Is it possible for any group of people to put aside the crimes of the past if given the right to exist as their cultural or any other group within their own borders, or are we doomed to the crimes of the past being avenged for ever more with endless conflict?

Kovalski
07-06-2011, 10:57 AM
Is it possible for any group of people to put aside the crimes of the past if given the right to exist as their cultural or any other group within their own borders, or are we doomed to the crimes of the past being avenged for ever more with endless conflict?

I believe it is possible, but I think few conditions got to be met. First, some time has to pass from the traumatic events before any dialogue can be started. Secondly, there has to be a will of agreement on both sides with true mutual respect shown. Then, both sides needs to admit their mistakes, crimes they comitted, etc. Finally, all generations need to pulled into the dialogue. Witnesses of the events and people who took active part in it are quite often too emotionally involved to handle alone the burden. In my honest opinion, the key factor is to let the young people from both sides meet. Without negative experiences they can start new relations.
OMG, sounds like some political declaration :)

Chevan
07-07-2011, 12:34 AM
That comes from your post above. It seems like a logic connection to me: Abakumov suggested "liquidation" - prisoners disappeared and never been found - clearly an extermination job.

You'v forgot to mention the tons of firearms that were cuptured with those "prisoners". No one army or state will tolerate the illegal armed terroristic groups attaking their rear and civils. So formally it was a war - with killed from both sides.


Actions like that are called "atrocities". You can't justify genocide by the threat of possible even greater genocide or civil war, etc.
NKVD as a military force of Soviet Union comitted crimes on the citizens of another country. The Augustow Round-up was just a one of many NKVD actions in Poland.
If you are looking for atrocities - just take a look at the photos of civil victims of UPA. The "citizents" of anothher country that attacks the legal autorities and police are called the terrorists. If they were the citizent - why the official polish authorities who definitelly know about action coz the Militia took part alongside NKVD did not protests? Becouse among victims of attacks of those "forest brothers" were definitelly the Polish citizens too. So as it has been stated - it was bloody partisan war. Keep in mind there were caught 250 baltic partisans who definitelly didn't burn by desire to save the polish lives during their attacks of polish "commies".
If to put emotions aside - really you would like to wish the another tens thousand of polish victims within the sensless civil war?

Chevan
07-07-2011, 12:48 AM
Is it possible for any group of people to put aside the crimes of the past if given the right to exist as their cultural or any other group within their own borders, or are we doomed to the crimes of the past being avenged for ever more with endless conflict?
We will not average for whatever been in past, mate.
We just are in the long way to reach the balanced view on common historical events FREE from the ethnical, race and any sort of nationalistic prejudices.COz those evill prejudices migh will have played the evil role in future.For those purposes we shall carefully and objectively look at the things.And we are almost have succeed:)

Chevan
07-07-2011, 12:49 AM
OMG, sounds like some political declaration :)

Kovalski in presidency ;)

Kovalski
07-07-2011, 02:18 AM
If to put emotions aside - really you would like to wish the another tens thousand of polish victims within the sensless civil war?

If Soviet Union did not impose communist regime in Poland in 1944, there would be no threat of civil war, no need to hide the weapons and ammo.
The polish military units and what is more important the political structures of Polish Goverment-in-Exile (which was the only legal continuation of polish state) were present all along on polish territory.
When the Soviets were about to arrive, AK units (which were in fact a union of many different units and organizations) and polish goverment structures revealed their existence.
But unfortunately, Soviets were not interested in cooperation with them (with a legal authorities of another state), and started a campaign of mass arrests. NKVD again!
So, the only rational reaction of AK members and other people involved in ressistance was to go back to underground.
In fact, it was the Soviets who caused problems including a threat of civil war.
If they stayed aside, if they were not involved, if they didn't want to impose a regime - none of those post war tragedies would ever happened.
I know Chevan it might not be a nice thing to read that, but I'm being honest with you.
Nobody asked Soviets to stay in Poland after the war. They stayed because they wanted to keep their commie gang in power. That was just a part of Stalin's plan for Europe.

Kovalski
07-07-2011, 02:26 AM
We will not average for whatever been in past, mate.
We just are in the long way to reach the balanced view on common historical events FREE from the ethnical, race and any sort of nationalistic prejudices.COz those evill prejudices migh will have played the evil role in future.For those purposes we shall carefully and objectively look at the things.And we are almost have succeed:)

I think that thanks to this forum, at least few of us came a long way and as Chevan says we almost succeeded.
Todays discussions are completely different from the ones we had in the past.It used to be very emotional and brutal. Now, there's a mutual respect, a will of understanding, friendship and of course sense of humour.
There are sites on the internet, where the discussion like the one above wouldn't be possible. But here, it works fine.

Kovalski
07-07-2011, 02:38 AM
If you are looking for atrocities - just take a look at the photos of civil victims of UPA.

Personally I find this topic very difficult to explore.
Even polish historians are arguing what happened between Poles and Ukrainians during the World War 2. What was the scale of atrocities, number of victims, who was in fact involved, who started first - all of this is still discussed. Recently, I read that some historians blame Ukrainians for all evil and UPA was a terrorist organization, some are pointing out that UPA also fought for freedom. There are people on both sides of the border who try start a dialogue, but again there's a lot of people who don't even want to hear about it.
I think that for Ukrainians themselves, it is a very difficult part of history to understand.

Chevan
07-08-2011, 08:21 AM
If Soviet Union did not impose communist regime in Poland in 1944, there would be no threat of civil war, no need to hide the weapons and ammo.

True. But it wasn't somtheing exclisive.
the Poland itself has imposed the anti-national regimes on occuped 1919-1939 West Ukraine and Belorussia, far from democratic rules.
For instance the Ukainian language was banned. Ukrainian shools has been closed.The repressions against national movenment were very harsh.
Why shall we remember just about occuped Poland case?


The polish military units and what is more important the political structures of Polish Goverment-in-Exile (which was the only legal continuation of polish state) were present all along on polish territory.
When the Soviets were about to arrive, AK units (which were in fact a union of many different units and organizations) and polish goverment structures revealed their existence.
But unfortunately, Soviets were not interested in cooperation with them (with a legal authorities of another state), and started a campaign of mass arrests. NKVD again!
So, the only rational reaction of AK members and other people involved in ressistance was to go back to underground.
In fact, it was the Soviets who caused problems including a threat of civil war.

Why should the civil conflict in Poland be needed for Soviets? To make their Polish communist allies unstable?You probably knew how effective the
Polish communist govenment has ended the ukro-polish ethnic hostilities. "Operation Vistula" - harsh but effective.


If they stayed aside, if they were not involved, if they didn't want to impose a regime - none of those post war tragedies would ever happened.

I don't think so. remember the Volun? When germans "stayed aside" - how much casualties it bring to polish settlers?
The ethnic conflict better to stop then to "watch" aside.


I know Chevan it might not be a nice thing to read that, but I'm being honest with you.

i'm OK , my friend. I know we were the enemies almost all the history. Commies hided that fact. But due to Commies our countries stayed friendly at least 50 years- much enough.The bad peace is still better the good war.


Nobody asked Soviets to stay in Poland after the war. They stayed because they wanted to keep their commie gang in power. That was just a part of Stalin's plan for Europe.
This happens constantly.
You think that somebody asked the Americans stayed in post-war Europe or Asia?Did the survived poor inhabitants of Silesia and Pomerania asked the post-war Poland - come to us and take our lands, join us to Poland? ;) Did Ukrainaisn asked Pilsudsky - " stay in Ukraine as much as you wish".No?
Sorry if it was too much sarcastic.

Kovalski
07-08-2011, 09:10 AM
True. But it wasn't somtheing exclisive.
the Poland itself has imposed the anti-national regimes on occuped 1919-1939 West Ukraine and Belorussia, far from democratic rules.
For instance the Ukainian language was banned. Ukrainian shools has been closed.The repressions against national movenment were very harsh.
Why shall we remember just about occuped Poland case?

I've never denied polish opressions against the local populations in Eastern Poland before World War 2.
And I've never opposed starting a thread about that. Feel free to do it Chevan.



Why should the civil conflict in Poland be needed for Soviets? To make their Polish communist allies unstable?You probably knew how effective the Polish communist govenment has ended the ukro-polish ethnic hostilities. "Operation Vistula" - harsh but effective.
I don't think so. remember the Volun? When germans "stayed aside" - how much casualties it bring to polish settlers?
The ethnic conflict better to stop then to "watch" aside.

So tell me mate, why the Soviets stayed in Eastern Europe? Why didn't they go back home to their beloved fatherland?
Because communist parties from every country asked them to stay? And so they stayed because Soviets were so nice and gently people who just couldn't say "no"?



i'm OK , my friend. I know we were the enemies almost all the history. Commies hided that fact. But due to Commies our countries stayed friendly at least 50 years- much enough.The bad peace is still better the good war.


Imagine a bear giving a strong hug to a bunny and saying that they are friends forever - this is how this friendship looked like.
And don't forget that during that peace Soviet "friends" carried out arrests of my countrymen, and in October 1956 Soviet tank columns marched towards Warsaw - a really firendly act.



This happens constantly.
You think that somebody asked the Americans stayed in post-war Europe or Asia?Did the survived poor inhabitants of Silesia and Pomerania asked the post-war Poland - come to us and take our lands, join us to Poland? ;) Did Ukrainaisn asked Pilsudsky - " stay in Ukraine as much as you wish".No?
Sorry if it was too much sarcastic.

Well, correct me if I'm wrong but:
1) Americans never murdered 20000 French, British, Belgian, Dutch, Italian nor even German officers once they showed up in Europe,
2) Americans didn't send NKVD nor Smersh to hunt down French, British, Belgian nor Dutch citizens,
3) Americans payed for Marschall Plan,
4) Americans never disassambled a single factory and moved it to US,
etc, etc.

The decision regarding the change of borders was not made by Polish.
It was made during Yalta Conference by Infamous Trio: Stalin, Rosevelt and Churchill. Poles like their borders as they were before the war.

And no, Pilsudski didn't asked Ukrainians. The division of Ukraine was decided at Riga Treaty in 1921 between Poland and Soviet Russia. Did tavarishch Lenin asked Ukrainians for permission to stay? :)
I don't think so.

Chevan
07-21-2011, 03:05 AM
I've never denied polish opressions against the local populations in Eastern Poland before World War 2.
And I've never opposed starting a thread about that. Feel free to do it Chevan.

Why shall i do this?
I will not, coz such a theme will rise up the mutual nationalistic troubles and reproaches .I actually don't think it's really needed for between brother slavic nations.You have a right to care about your independence, but how about the independence of your neighbourd who lived next door?


So tell me mate, why the Soviets stayed in Eastern Europe? Why didn't they go back home to their beloved fatherland?
Because communist parties from every country asked them to stay? And so they stayed because Soviets were so nice and gently people who just couldn't say "no"?

Really you don't know why soviets stayed there, mate?
Becouse they had splitted out the zones of influence. The CHurch, Rosewelt and Stalin. You know it. Just like the Poland and Germany had splitted the Chehoclovakia in 1938...just like the Pilsudsky and bolshevic criminal Lenin had splitted the Ukraine in 1921. Why Poles has not leaved the Ukraine - from you way of thinking i have to admit- coz they were so "nice and gently" for locals? No?
You , my friend have to agreed that Poland used the any possibility to capture and grab any neighbourd territory over all its history.And no one ever interested want the locals to be the "citizents" of Poland or no.And never Poland leaved those territories.
So why on your mind USSR should leave the Eastern Europe?


Imagine a bear giving a strong hug to a bunny and saying that they are friends forever - this is how this friendship looked like.
And don't forget that during that peace Soviet "friends" carried out arrests of my countrymen, and in October 1956 Soviet tank columns marched towards Warsaw - a really firendly act.

And now imagine the Prague, 1968. The "bear and bunny" alongside invide the CHehoslovakia. And Polish tanks with soviets marched toward Chech capital. What a idilia. Looks like a really frendly act, is in it?;)


Well, correct me if I'm wrong but:
1) Americans never murdered 20000 French, British, Belgian, Dutch, Italian nor even German officers once they showed up in Europe,

Hell yes..
The Americans killed pretty much Brits during war for Independence. Also killed a lot of enemies which ever invided the USA like Mexicans , Spanish or Canadians. And of cource they killed a thousands of enemy officer of armies which USA itself had invided;)Including some captured German officers.
So our American partners had killed a tonns of enemy officers, whose poor armies had a honour to attack the USA and kills the americans:)
We both know a lot of stories how the USA might to invide and wiped out the entire countries in "revenge".But this is entire the other story.


2) Americans didn't send NKVD nor Smersh to hunt down French, British, Belgian nor Dutch citizens,
3) Americans payed for Marschall Plan,
4) Americans never disassambled a single factory and moved it to US,
etc, etc.

and 5). the Americans NEVER joined the European territories (with factories and plants) to USA. Unlike the Poland..


The decision regarding the change of borders was not made by Polish.
It was made during Yalta Conference by Infamous Trio: Stalin, Rosevelt and Churchill. Poles like their borders as they were before the war.

But Ukrainians did not like those pre-war borders, mate..
therefor the unfamous trio has finaly decided and ended that terrible ethnic conflict. And you should be gratefull for that 0- they saved a lives of thousands of poles.


And no, Pilsudski didn't asked Ukrainians. The division of Ukraine was decided at Riga Treaty in 1921 between Poland and Soviet Russia. Did tavarishch Lenin asked Ukrainians for permission to stay? :)
I don't think so.
But why then Stalin should ask the poles to stay after ww2?;)
Now you tell the true.
The Pilsudsky has deel with illegal bolshevic govenment ( the official White govenment stell existed and fought in 1921) and separated the neighbourd country that should be independent. From all sides the Riga threaty was illegal. Therefore the "Eastern Polald" was never legitime.Neither for Russia nor for Ukraine.

Kovalski
09-26-2011, 06:35 AM
Now you tell the true.
The Pilsudsky has deel with illegal bolshevic govenment ( the official White govenment stell existed and fought in 1921) and separated the neighbourd country that should be independent. From all sides the Riga threaty was illegal. Therefore the "Eastern Polald" was never legitime.Neither for Russia nor for Ukraine.

I'll support myself with a post by our colleague, Kregs:
"[...] after the 1921 war, Poland's borders became internationally recognized despite Ukrainian resistance. So, therefore, any attempts to alter by force the borders established at Riga and recognized by the Entente, violates international law."

And as a reminder, it was a treaty between Poland and Soviet Russia.

So Chevan, you need to decide whether the treaty was legal or not.
In this thread you say it was illegal, but in another thread you don't oppose when it is said it was legal.

Chevan
09-26-2011, 07:48 AM
I'll support myself with a post by our colleague, Kregs:
"[...] after the 1921 war, Poland's borders became internationally recognized despite Ukrainian resistance. So, therefore, any attempts to alter by force the borders established at Riga and recognized by the Entente, violates international law."

Mate , from which time you begin to post by reposting the other members?;)
Glad , you've back though..
We missed you here.


And as a reminder, it was a treaty between Poland and Soviet Russia.

So Chevan, you need to decide whether the treaty was legal or not.
In this thread you say it was illegal, but in another thread you don't oppose when it is said it was legal.
my firend, if i get the pause in MY discussion with the OTHER member - why should you worry about? You know my point, but i repeat this ONCE againt.With quote..
Wiki sais (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Riga)



The Allied Powers were reluctant to recognize the treaty, which had been concluded without their participation.Their postwar conferences supported the Curzon Line as the Polish-Russian border, and Poland's territorial gains in the treaty lay about 250 kilometers east of that line.French support led to its recognition in March 1923 by France, Great Britain, Italy, and Japan, followed by the US in April.

Belarussian and Ukrainian independence movements saw the treaty as a setback.Four million Ukrainians and over one million Belarussians lived within areas ceded to Poland; in one estimate, only 15% of the population was ethnically Polish.The Ukrainian People's Republic led by Symon Petliura had been allied with Poland by Treaty of Warsaw, but the Treaty of Riga abrogated it.The new treaty violated Poland's military alliance with the UPR, which had explicitly prohibited a separate peace. In doing so, it worsened relations between Poland and those Ukrainians who had supported Petliura. These supporters felt Ukraine had been betrayed by its Polish ally, a feeling that would be exploited by Ukrainian nationalists and contribute to the growing tensions and eventual violence in the 1930s and 1940s.
Even the Western major countries seen the Rigas treaty violated the independece and right of several nations - Belorussians, Ukrainians and Luthinians. Not to mention that the treaty with Bolshevics butchers , who in 1921 stiil firght the Legal Russian govenment army and commited a lot of the mass crimes against civils - can't be recognized LEGAL for the nations. Let me remind you , the Soviet govenment has been officially recognized by West since beginning 1930-yy.It was seen , however as the LEsser Evil - as mean to stop the war at that moment. So it was illegal (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/Caricature_for_Riga_Peace_1921.png/800px-Caricature_for_Riga_Peace_1921.png)but better then nothing.
However , we both know , how the UPA seen this situation and how later civil poles have paid for such an "treaty",right?

Kovalski
09-26-2011, 11:52 AM
[QUOTE=Chevan;180440] Let me remind you , the Soviet govenment has been officially recognized by West since beginning 1930-yy[QUOTE]

Well, I kindly suggest a quick check of historic facts.
As far as I know, the USSR was recognized by the British Empire in February 1924, by France in October 1924 and US in 1933. So, you're a little bit wrong. Just a little bit ;)

Anyway, in my opinion there's not much to discuss about this treaty. It was legal and recognised by the states signing it: Poland and Russia. It is obvious that the way Ukrainians and Belorussians were treated was shameful and in their eyes this treaty was a trison (especially by Polish side - I bet Ukrainians and Belorussians never expected anything good from Russians). But as far Poland and Russia were concerned, the treaty was legal and welcomed by both states. Poland was tired with war, needed time to recover and focus on internal problems. Soviet Russia was on its knees still involved in a war against Wrangl's Army. Both sides were not interested in continuation of a conflict which would bring only more victims without clear and decisive victory in near future.
In my opinion the outcome of this treaty was a failure for Poland, because there were three different ideas represented by the members of polish delegation (instead of presenting one clear vision, they preferred to argue within the delegation - so typical for Poles :) ). In the begining, there was an idea of federation of states (Poland, Belarussia, Ukraine and Lithuania) but it was given up and the idea of division of the land was forced by nationalist members of delegation.
Anyway, the treaty was signed and recognised later by the other countries, that means it was legal.

There always will be someone unhappy and felling betrayed, so I'm not surprised you give examples.

Chevan
09-26-2011, 01:25 PM
Well, I kindly suggest a quick check of historic facts.
As far as I know, the USSR was recognized by the British Empire in February 1924, by France in October 1924 and US in 1933. So, you're a little bit wrong. Just a little bit ;)

Brilliant Kovalski;)
Yes, i was a bit wrong , mind the USA. Yes the Britain was the first to recognize the USSR 2 feb 1924. That is still MUCH later the supposed "Legal" Riga treaty with USSR were admitted by League of nations.
So as you see even from pure juridical points - the so called "soviet govenment" ( i.e. the gang of bloody criminals self-declared leaders of Russia) has no any legal right to sign an any international treaty. It might be easly dismissed or proved as false by any international court if such a aim will be wished.
The fact that the Poland to own imperialistic profit self-declared the gang of criminals- doesn't cost a much.


Anyway, in my opinion there's not much to discuss about this treaty. It was legal and recognised by the states signing it: Poland and Russia. It is obvious that the way Ukrainians and Belorussians were treated was shameful and in their eyes this treaty was a trison (especially by Polish side - I bet Ukrainians and Belorussians never expected anything good from Russians). But as far Poland and Russia were concerned, the treaty was legal and welcomed by both states. Poland was tired with war, needed time to recover and focus on internal problems. Soviet Russia was on its knees still involved in a war against Wrangl's Army. Both sides were not interested in continuation of a conflict which would bring only more victims without clear and decisive victory in near future.
In my opinion the outcome of this treaty was a failure for Poland, because there were three different ideas represented by the members of polish delegation (instead of presenting one clear vision, they preferred to argue within the delegation - so typical for Poles :) ). In the begining, there was an idea of federation of states (Poland, Belarussia, Ukraine and Lithuania) but it was given up and the idea of division of the land was forced by nationalist members of delegation.

Actualy the treaty was needed for both territorial predators - Poland and Russia. However if to put in mind the locals right's were ignored and Boslshevics were still ILLEGAl ( you right about Civil war continied) hardly the such a treaty migh to resolve the troubles.


There always will be someone unhappy and felling betrayed, so I'm not surprised you give examples.
But you too are unhappy when remember like Soviets installed the commies in 1945, right? All we feel offensived when someone decided for us - whatever political system we want. Why shell we to ignore the same rights of the other nations?The peoples are the equal , aren't they?You confirm that locals were distressed by the treaty but it was the Legal, coz it was profitable for Poland!

Kovalski
09-27-2011, 03:33 AM
But you too are unhappy when remember like Soviets installed the commies in 1945, right? All we feel offensived when someone decided for us - whatever political system we want. Why shell we to ignore the same rights of the other nations?The peoples are the equal , aren't they?You confirm that locals were distressed by the treaty but it was the Legal, coz it was profitable for Poland!

I've never stated that treaty was legal because it was profitable for Poland. Please don't pin that to me.
According to the 20's international law standards the treaty was legal because it was recognised by both sides and later by other countries. And Belorussians and Ukrainians were not considered as legal entities.
Today it would look completely different. Kosovo case, for example.
But was the treaty legal from the moral point of view?
I don't think so.
I think the Ukrainians and Belorussians should had been given the same chance to create their own states as Polish had been given after WW1. But nobody was interested in that - Poles, Russians, nor the Western Allies.
Personally, I think these cards could be played different.
Instead of that, the hostilities in this part of Europe were fuelled and the economical and social progress was halted for almost whole century.

Chevan
09-27-2011, 08:17 AM
I've never stated that treaty was legal because it was profitable for Poland. Please don't pin that to me.
According to the 20's international law standards the treaty was legal because it was recognised by both sides and later by other countries. And Belorussians and Ukrainians were not considered as legal entities.

Sorry, but this is just another bright example , my friend . How you turn the events in profitable light.
About "illegal enteties" , let's to see the Warsaw Treaty of 1920 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Warsaw_(1920)).

The treaty was signed on 21 April in Warsaw (it should be noted that some sources give the dates 20 and 22 April for the signing of the treaty). In exchange for agreeing to a border along the Zbruch River, recognizing the recent Polish territorial gains in western Ukraine (Article II)(obtained by the Poland's defeating the Ukrainian attempt to create another Ukrainian state in Volhynia and Galicia, territories with mixed Ukrainian-Polish population), Poland recognized the Ukrainian People's Republic as an independent state (Article I) with borders as defined by Articles II and III and under ataman Petlura's leadership

The UPR was declared the same time the Polish Repablic was birth.And it was fully recognized by Poland in 1920. Folow to you logic- the two side Warsaw treaty was International BTW:).
The UPR in face of Semen Petlura has signed the Treaty of Warsaw- he was actual leader of UPR.
So the so called Reagy treaty was a direct violation of Warsaw treaty. Notice, the Semen Petlura was LEGAL leader, while bolshevics in Riga were just gung of criminals. So again from juridical point- the Rigas treaty can't be the Legal coz it violated the actually LEGAL previous Warsaw Treaty with Independent state of Ukraine.Which Poland succesfully has betrayed. Why?


Today it would look completely different. Kosovo case, for example.

It looked the exactly the same in 1943. Volyn?


But was the treaty legal from the moral point of view?
I don't think so.
I think the Ukrainians and Belorussians should had been given the same chance to create their own states as Polish had been given after WW1. But nobody was interested in that - Poles, Russians, nor the Western Allies.

It's not correct. Actualy the Poland, as we seen has recognized the UPR. But later just joined it to Poland. Illegally.

Kovalski
09-28-2011, 02:40 AM
Sorry, but this is just another bright example , my friend . How you turn the events in profitable light.

Look who's talking... :)


About "illegal enteties" , let's to see the Warsaw Treaty of 1920 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Warsaw_(1920)).

You're absolutely right about this one. Poland recognized UPR and agreed to cooperate militarly in order fight the Russians. But later, when it came to start peace talks, Ukrainians were not represented there. Not Poles, nor Russians were interested in independent Ukraine. To be honest with you, Poland requested Russia to accept Ukrainian minister Andrij Liwycki to take part in negotiations. But as expected, Russians stated that the only Ukrainian republic is the Soviet one and Lywicki was not accepted. Of course, it was a perfect excuse for Polish to drop Ukrainian case. They pretended for a while to support their allies, but soon it was clear that Ukrainians had been betrayed.



The UPR was declared the same time the Polish Repablic was birth.And it was fully recognized by Poland in 1920. Folow to you logic- the two side Warsaw treaty was International BTW:).


It is a bit more complicated than that.
When the Riga Treaty was signed, the other countries accepted it and withdrew their ambassadors from UPR. That meant the UPR lost its recognition as a sovereign state and that made the treaty legal.
I know it sucks but this is how it works.

Chevan
10-02-2011, 03:35 AM
You're absolutely right about this one. Poland recognized UPR and agreed to cooperate militarly in order fight the Russians. But later, when it came to start peace talks, Ukrainians were not represented there. Not Poles, nor Russians were interested in independent Ukraine. To be honest with you, Poland requested Russia to accept Ukrainian minister Andrij Liwycki to take part in negotiations. But as expected, Russians stated that the only Ukrainian republic is the Soviet one and Lywicki was not accepted. Of course, it was a perfect excuse for Polish to drop Ukrainian case. They pretended for a while to support their allies, but soon it was clear that Ukrainians had been betrayed.

But note, the bolshevics had not treaty with UPR in 1921. They had no absolutly any signed international documents dated this period. They were illegal and not legitime. Don't forget it, please. The Riga treaty was signed with ILLEGAL force on one side.The fact that this force seen the Rigas treaty in OWN political aims- to stop the polish advance and to prevent the final military collaps of the bolshevic regime, can't claim the regime was enought legitime to sign the international treaties from a face of population of Russia.


It is a bit more complicated than that.
When the Riga Treaty was signed, the other countries accepted it and withdrew their ambassadors from UPR. That meant the UPR lost its recognition as a sovereign state and that made the treaty legal.
I know it sucks but this is how it works.
Ok, so if after 1945 the Londont poles lost it's recognition - may we suppose that the imposed by USSR communist govenment of Poland was LEGAL and Legitime?See, the communist govenment were fully recognized by west. And they had a international agreements , signed by the allied powers.Was the post war event also a "bit more compicated" for Poland itself?
Just understand me correct. I worry for sort of revisionism in history.Any one nations can't claims right for independence, ignored/ forgot the independence of their neighbourds.This is absolutly correct for Russia as well.

Kovalski
10-02-2011, 08:33 AM
But note, the bolshevics had not treaty with UPR in 1921. They had no absolutly any signed international documents dated this period. They were illegal and not legitime. Don't forget it, please.


Sorry, but this is just another bright example , my friend . How you turn the events in profitable light.

I just had to use your own word as a comment ;)

Ukrainian People's Republic had been recognized by Bolschevik Russia in February 1918. A month later, Russia signed so-called Brest Treaty together with Germany, Austrian Empire and their allies together with UPR.
The treaty stated that UPR didn't claim any right for Galicia and Russia decided to withdraw itself from any superior relations towards the newly-created states.

Of course some time later, when it become profitable, Russia withdrew its recognition of independent Ukraine.



Ok, so if after 1945 the Londont poles lost it's recognition - may we suppose that the imposed by USSR communist govenment of Poland was LEGAL and Legitime?See, the communist govenment were fully recognized by west. And they had a international agreements , signed by the allied powers.Was the post war event also a "bit more compicated" for Poland itself?
Just understand me correct. I worry for sort of revisionism in history.Any one nations can't claims right for independence, ignored/ forgot the independence of their neighbourds.This is absolutly correct for Russia as well.

Yes, when the WW2 ended, polish government-in-exile lost all the recognition, as such an ally was not needed anymore (let's be honest - an ally without money, territory, any prospects for future). It was undoubtedly cynical, but this is exactly how it happened. Western Allies simply "transferred" their recognition on communist government of Poland. The government-in-exile existed till the fall of communism, but it meaning was purely symbolic.
There is an analogy here. Western Allies behaved in very similar way as Poland did 24 years earlier.

Kovalski
06-05-2012, 05:19 AM
Top secret report (russian) sent by gen. Victor Abakumov (head of USSR People's Commissariat of Defence Chief Counterintelligence Directorate "SMERSH") to Lavrenty Beria, regarding the Augustow Roundup.
These files were recovered by polish IPN in April 2012.
http://ipn.gov.pl/download/2/1347/Oblawa_augustowska_cz_1.pdf
http://ipn.gov.pl/download/2/1349/Oblawa_augustowska_cz_2.pdf

Egorka
06-05-2012, 07:41 AM
Top secret report (russian) sent by gen. Victor Abakumov (head of USSR People's Commissariat of Defence Chief Counterintelligence Directorate "SMERSH") to Lavrenty Beria, regarding the Augustow Roundup.
These files were recovered by polish IPN in April 2012.
http://ipn.gov.pl/download/2/1347/Oblawa_augustowska_cz_1.pdf
http://ipn.gov.pl/download/2/1349/Oblawa_augustowska_cz_2.pdf
"Recovered by Pollsh IPN..." :) Spooky!

These documents were requested by Russian historian Nikita Petrov in Nov 2011. Russian FSB declassified documents and sent him copies in Feb 2012.
http://urokiistorii.ru/history/soc/3214

Kovalski
06-05-2012, 07:45 AM
Recovered by IPN... :) Spooky!

These documents were requested by Russian historian Nikita Petrov in Nov 2011. Russian FSB declassified documents and sent him copies in Feb 2012.
http://urokiistorii.ru/history/soc/3214

Check my 1st post.
To get anything from russian (especially FSB) archives is like to recover, discover or unveil. :)

Kregs
07-09-2013, 10:58 PM
Even the Western major countries seen the Rigas treaty violated the independece and right of several nations - Belorussians, Ukrainians and Luthinians. Not to mention that the treaty with Bolshevics butchers , who in 1921 stiil firght the Legal Russian govenment army and commited a lot of the mass crimes against civils - can't be recognized LEGAL for the nations.

I do apologize for jumping into this thread very, very late, but I was discussing this very topic with a very dear friend, who is a historian and holds a teaching position in an American university. We also discussed the Augustow Roundup, which I remember very well, as I was arrested in August of 1945, a month later.

Now, on to the 1921 Riga Treaty. The Treaty was validated because France, Great Britain, and the United States eventually accepted the treaty's territorial resolutions, which is not surprising, due to the fear that the resurgent Communist Red Army (the White Army, for the first time during the Russian civil war, experienced magnificent set-backs and misfortune) would pose a critical military and political threat to France and the Western countries from the east. The Riga Treaty, until Rapallo a year later, calmed France's fears and stabilized its eastern border, as well as Poland's, for the next 18 years. Also, eastern Europe settled down, albeit uneasily, in the Versailles treaty's assigned territories because, I imagine, Poland tentatively reached conciliation on all her borders, and the civil war in Russia was winding down, calming "Red fears" in the West.

But, if you notice, Poland did not accept the Curzon line at Versailles or Riga for historical and political reasons. First, Dmowski argued for the restoration of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth borders, stretching from the tip of Danzig's border, encompassing all of Belarus and three-quarters of Ukraine, and some land in Russia. Second, Dmowski believed that since these countries still had ethnic Polish minorities, and these countries were linked to Polish history, they should return to the new Poland, despite the significant demographic changes in the area. The Curzon line would cut off Poland from her history, so the thinking went. I don't subscribe to Dmowski's chauvinist, nationalist vision because the line represents Polish minorities very well. In 1921, 250 km east of Bialystok represented shared land with the Lithuanian Duchy before she joined forces with Poland, not modern demographics or economics (much of this territory wasn't urbanized and contained farms, which utilized backward farming techniques that failed to yield sufficient revenue for crops, due to protectionist tariffs and the collapse of world food prices.) And, Pilsudski was born and raised in Vilna in a Polish noble family, making the argument against the Riga Treaty difficult to deride in Poland and the Polish army.




Let me remind you , the Soviet govenment has been officially recognized by West since beginning 1930-yy.It was seen , however as the LEsser Evil - as mean to stop the war at that moment.

I do not understand, Chevan, forgive me (If we were speaking Polish, I would immediately understand, as the cases make reading comprehension easier; English has too many pronoun-antecedent agreement rules, and the meaning gets lost in the shuffle). Who was the lesser evil, Soviet government, the Polish government, or the White Army under Denikin?


So it was illegal (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/Caricature_for_Riga_Peace_1921.png/800px-Caricature_for_Riga_Peace_1921.png)but better then nothing.

I do not understand, Chevan. In 1923, the International Community (League of Nations) recognized the treaty, so therefore, the treaty was a legal document between Poland and the Soviet Union. Your last two quotes acknowledge this statement.


However , we both know , how the UPA seen this situation and how later civil poles have paid for such an "treaty",right?

The world paid dearly for Poland's borders, as Germany contested the authenticity of Danzig and much of Poland's western borders. The eastern border question was not settled until the USSR's invasion in 1939, when that country imposed its authority by force. Also, Poland's lost eastern border, which the allies never recognized until Nazi Germany invaded the Soviet Union, ending the brief, but fragile, "alliance" between those two powers, caused much anxiety and mutual suspicion between Poland and the Soviet Union, a suspicion that lasts to this very day.

Kregs
07-09-2013, 11:35 PM
When the Soviets were about to arrive, AK units (which were in fact a union of many different units and organizations) and polish goverment structures revealed their existence.


Yes, Kovalski. AK units had an amalgamation of loyalties and ideologies. This motley assortment of sorts became more and more evident to the underground very soon after Germany's long retreat from Stalingrad. Before then, we understood that the common purpose was to strengthen Polish morale under German rule, establish some sort of rapport with Polish intellectuals, and weaken Germany's hold on the populace. But the ideological assortment became a weakness. For instance, some AK soldiers were strong Nationalists with little regard for non-Poles, some sympathized with the Soviet Union, others with the allies, etc. One frightening aspect of this shifting ground was that you never knew who would turn against you because of loyalty and ideological issues. Another frightening, but sad, aspect was that many in the underground wanted Polish stability and believed that cooperation with the new government would stop the bleeding between the divergent factions in the underground. Others, who despised the Soviets, refused to disarm and ran for their lives (I am of this number, unfortunately). The basic belief was that the Soviets would never allow freedom to flourish and never leave Polish soil without exacting painful vengeance. We who ran knew this all to well.

royal744
08-12-2013, 02:30 PM
You think that somebody asked the Americans stayed in post-war Europe or Asia?Did the survived poor inhabitants of Silesia and Pomerania asked the post-war Poland - come to us and take our lands, join us to Poland? ;) Did Ukrainaisn asked Pilsudsky - " stay in Ukraine as much as you wish".No?
Sorry if it was too much sarcastic.

Actually, Chevan, I believe we were asked to stay. To protect us and Europe from you. Who asked the Russians to stay where they were?

Chevan
07-04-2016, 12:43 PM
Actually, Chevan, I believe we were asked to stay. To protect us and Europe from you.

You will laught, royal, but we in USSR sincerely believed the same:) To protect the mankind from agressive american imperialism;) Sounds familiar?


Who asked the Russians to stay where they were?
They have asked themself;) Becouse when you invide some country - you then install the puppet gowenment, which immediatelly "asked you to stay and defend us" ;) Just like it was in Saigon or Baghdad. You should better know how it..

Chevan
07-04-2016, 01:25 PM
I do apologize for jumping into this thread very, very late, but I was discussing this very topic with a very dear friend, who is a historian and holds a teaching position in an American university. We also discussed the Augustow Roundup, which I remember very well, as I was arrested in August of 1945, a month later.

Hello Kregs. Sorry for late answer- just re-read this interesting thread. But how old are you?


Now, on to the 1921 Riga Treaty. The Treaty was validated because France, Great Britain, and the United States eventually accepted the treaty's territorial resolutions, which is not surprising, due to the fear that the resurgent Communist Red Army (the White Army, for the first time during the Russian civil war, experienced magnificent set-backs and misfortune) would pose a critical military and political threat to France and the Western countries from the east.

Yes the political and military troubles of the France and Britain over the eastern threat were explicable. The were ready to recognise the rigas treaty even if Poland wanted too much territories behind curson line - it was still better if it helped to stop a war. Soviets and Poles have separated Ukraine for its mutual profit. But this treaty roughly violated the interests of MAJOR populated side - the Ukraine Peoples Repablic whose leader Petlura has been ignored. Thus de-facto the treaty was an "act of annection of ukrainian territory". That later comes to bloody civil conflict there.


But, if you notice, Poland did not accept the Curzon line at Versailles or Riga for historical and political reasons. First, Dmowski argued for the restoration of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth borders, stretching from the tip of Danzig's border, encompassing all of Belarus and three-quarters of Ukraine, and some land in Russia. Second, Dmowski believed that since these countries still had ethnic Polish minorities, and these countries were linked to Polish history, they should return to the new Poland, despite the significant demographic changes in the area. The Curzon line would cut off Poland from her history, so the thinking went. I don't subscribe to Dmowski's chauvinist, nationalist vision because the line represents Polish minorities very well. In 1921, 250 km east of Bialystok represented shared land with the Lithuanian Duchy before she joined forces with Poland, not modern demographics or economics (much of this territory wasn't urbanized and contained farms, which utilized backward farming techniques that failed to yield sufficient revenue for crops, due to protectionist tariffs and the collapse of world food prices.) And, Pilsudski was born and raised in Vilna in a Polish noble family, making the argument against the Riga Treaty difficult to deride in Poland and the Polish army.

It's called imperialism;) Pilsudsky dreamed about new Great Poland- we know it both. The problem of poles , IMO, is when they blame the russian and german imperialism - they are absolutly blind to its own imperialism.


I do not understand, Chevan, forgive me (If we were speaking Polish, I would immediately understand, as the cases make reading comprehension easier; English has too many pronoun-antecedent agreement rules, and the meaning gets lost in the shuffle). Who was the lesser evil, Soviet government, the Polish government, or the White Army under Denikin?

I meant the unfair Rigas treaty with illegal bolsheviks was a lesser evil for the Great Powers but not for the peoples , populated the disputed territories.


I do not understand, Chevan. In 1923, the International Community (League of Nations) recognized the treaty, so therefore, the treaty was a legal document between Poland and the Soviet Union. Your last two quotes acknowledge this statement.

What a legal document could be with signed Soviet union in 1921 if USSR hasn't been internationally legalised untill the 1924? The bolshevics were still fighting the civil war for power with legal White govenment forces there. The bolshevics were in fact just another terrorist , fighting the legal govenment. It's just like to separate the Iraq and signed the treaty wit ISIS - on the basis that they also is winning the legal iraqi govenment;) Hey, it may help to stop a war on the Middle East to the great powers common profit;)

Kovalski
07-05-2016, 02:20 AM
You will laught, royal, but we in USSR sincerely believed the same:) To protect the mankind from agressive american imperialism;) Sounds familiar?

They have asked themself;) Because when you invide some country - you then install the puppet gowenment, which immediatelly "asked you to stay and defend us" ;) Just like it was in Saigon or Baghdad. You should better know how it..

Chevan, do me a favour and give me an example of US Army operations in 1945 against the local population of France, Belgium, Netherlands or even Germany. Remind me of the organized action which aim was to suppress the civilians, arrest the men, women and children, brutally interrogate them and later put onto the truck and drive in the unknown direction. Tell me about hundreds of French who vanished without a trace after US Army entered their villages.

And then, please tell me which Western European country liberated by the US had its personnel installed in every military unit, in every internal security office, in every single ministry?

I'm intentionally not mentioning Iraq, Vietnam nor Nicaragua. We all know what happened there and was the reason for the US presence there.

But in 1945, there was a big difference between US and USSR.

Chevan
07-06-2016, 02:46 PM
Oh , mate Kovalski has finally returned back. I missed you;)

Chevan, do me a favour and give me an example of US Army operations in 1945 against the local population of France, Belgium, Netherlands or even Germany.

..just against the local civils? OK. The Dresden ( 12 febriary) the Tokio ( march 1945) the Hiroshima( august) - all those auctions have been planned and organised specially against civils. I may continie, but hardly you would like that way of dialog;)


Remind me of the organized action which aim was to suppress the civilians, arrest the men, women and children, brutally interrogate them and later put onto the truck and drive in the unknown direction.

Today is everything for you , mate. My lovely busyness to help the people to educate.
250–300 were killed, mostly women and children (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Gun_Ri_Massacre)
The American colonel, troubled by what he was hearing, tried to stall at first. But the declassified record shows he finally told his South Korean counterpart it "would be permitted" to machine-gun 3,500 political prisoners, to keep them from joining approaching enemy forces. (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ap-us-allowed-korean-massacre-in-1950/)
That's just what come to mind instantly, but i can dig up a tonns more.


Tell me about hundreds of French who vanished without a trace after US Army entered their villages.

Surprise! I have one Some of the women were gang-raped and their bodies mutilated (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre)
Did you know the Vietnam was a French colony?


And then, please tell me which Western European country liberated by the US had its personnel installed in every military unit, in every internal security office, in every single ministry?

Post-war occuped Germany;)


I'm intentionally not mentioning Iraq, Vietnam nor Nicaragua. We all know what happened there and was the reason for the US presence there.

I know why you ignore the Iraqi bloody bath? ( up to 1 million of civils dead) becouse the Poland has participated in that dirty compain. Im i right? But of cource , we both know it was becouse of communists!!! They provided saddam wth MDW and US just saved the entire world and , personally Poland, from the atomic armageddon - that is the reason which we both imply?


But in 1945, there was a big difference between US and USSR.
Hard to agrue, i have to add the Stalin was an maniacal idiot. I've just noticed all the countries the americans bombed into stone age like Germany and Japane now loves the USA and best american friends today. How do you think if the Soviets instead fo liberation ( or before libaration) just nuked or firebombed with "white phosporic" the Warsaw - could we hope for better friendship today?