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witman111
05-16-2011, 06:33 AM
So which was most effective German division ie. which one got most work done ?
I would think rather hard between Leibstandarte AH, Das Reich and GrossDeutschland. Considering LAAH spawned impressive lineup of titans like Wittman, and fought for every mile from Dunkirk to Rostov on Don, I'll go with it :mrgreen:.

P.S
Even 6th Army in Stalingrad fantasized that LAAH would come and save them (according to Beevor) ... enough said

tankgeezer
05-16-2011, 09:37 AM
I believe it was the Vergraben Registrierung Einheit that got the most work done for Germany in WW II.

witman111
05-17-2011, 09:12 AM
I believe it was the Vergraben Registrierung Einheit that got the most work done for Germany in WW II.

err... come again :) - Ich habe nicht du versten or something like that :mrgreen:

Rising Sun*
05-17-2011, 09:25 AM
err... come again :) - Ich habe nicht du versten or something like that :mrgreen:

You haven't heard of this unit?

Everywhere it went, it left thousands of dead behind it.

Not a unit you'd want to encounter.

Iron Yeoman
05-17-2011, 10:35 AM
err... come again :) - Ich habe nicht du versten or something like that :mrgreen:

You mean 'Ich verstehe nicht'. The problem with the Vergraben Registrierung Einheit was that they left bodies alles uber der platz, a very messy bunch.

tankgeezer
05-17-2011, 12:40 PM
err... come again :) - Ich habe nicht du versten or something like that :mrgreen:

You may find a translation matrix helpful . This unit was extraordinarily efficient, and exacting in their work,and absolutely no one who ran afoul of them was ever seen again....

flamethrowerguy
05-17-2011, 03:34 PM
Ouch, causes me an eye cancer!

pdf27
05-17-2011, 04:42 PM
Ouch, causes me an eye cancer!
You have a more exact definition of their name?

pdf27
05-17-2011, 04:43 PM
You may find a translation matrix helpful . This unit was extraordinarily efficient, and exacting in their work,and absolutely no one who ran afoul of them was ever seen again....
I sometimes wish they could assist with a few members of this forum!

flamethrowerguy
05-17-2011, 05:08 PM
You have a more exact definition of their name?

I meant the latest pidgin-German in general but since you're asking...
Actually there were no grave registration units in the German forces but "Wehrmachtgräberoffiziere" (WGO's, Wehrmacht grave officers) on army level and "Truppengräberoffiziere" (troop grave officers) attached down to every regiment respectively independent battalion. With divisions this task was usually done by the field chaplains. Every regiment/independent battalion had to deploy a team of 4-5 men led by an NCO to support the grave officer.

tankgeezer
05-17-2011, 08:01 PM
I sometimes wish they could assist with a few members of this forum!
I think the Gepanzert Sturm Zombie group is still alive, they could help out..... The GSZ program was brought into being to counter the soviet Проект зомби Ленин, (zombie project Lenin) Lenin was cursed to this Fate by Rasputin for his role in the murders of the Romanov Family. (which is the true reason his body never decayed, and was kept in the glass coffin to keep an available supply of sample tissue) ;)

navyson
05-17-2011, 09:56 PM
I think the Gepanzert Sturm Zombie group is still alive, they could help out..... The GSZ program was brought into being to counter the soviet Проект зомби Ленин, (zombie project Lenin) Lenin was cursed to this Fate by Rasputin for his role in the murders of the Romanov Family. (which is the true reason his body never decayed, and was kept in the glass coffin to keep an available supply of sample tissue) ;)
So, if Lenin were ever released, would he start a zombie apocalypse? :shock:;)

Edit: Oh, the poll, I guess the Panzer-Lehr Division?

tankgeezer
05-18-2011, 11:34 AM
[QUOTE=navyson;177582]So, if Lenin were ever released, would he start a zombie apocalypse? :shock:;)

It would be a revolution of the proletariat Zombies throwing off the yoke of the Bourgeois Zombies. Wait,, didnt that happen in 1917?? ;)

witman111
05-19-2011, 08:32 AM
'Ich verstehe nicht'.
Yeah, exactly that :lol:

In that case "Vergraben Registrierung Einheit" indeed did most work for Germany... very funny


It would be a revolution of the proletariat Zombies throwing off the yoke of the Bourgeois Zombies. Wait,, didnt that happen in 1917?
and maybe they could attack Nazi zombies this time first ?
but wait, how can zombies comprehend such term as nation - they have no brain :confused:

witman111
05-19-2011, 08:52 AM
One other thing, I noticed 40% people voting for Panzer Lehr. I thought they were "training" division as Lehr itself suggests, only fighting in Normandy in 1944 ?

Battlefield's Invasion of Normandy and Battle for Caen give much more credit to 12th SS Hitler Jugend fighting British Army almost alone for entire month (Goodwood and such :)), so I am a bit disappointed in Lehr or I am just misinformed...

Other divisions had muchhhh more bloody lifespan... 70.000 people cycled through LAAH for example - which means 50.000 dead KIA/WIA. At Prohorovka bulk of Russian tanks were destroyed by 3 Germanic SS divisions, 30 alone by Wittman on that occasion. GD and Das Reich are not far off either...

I would really not go into war crimes issue. Allied air fleets committed far worse war crimes than any of this divisions and nobody ever said one thing about prosecuting B-17 pilots that dropped nukes killing few hundred thousand civilians at one stroke alone...that of course was heroic deed ever to be celebrated in US history because all civilians are obviously not of equal or probative value

so one sided, finger pointing, off topic war crimes discussions would indeed be pitiful in my view at least

Rising Sun*
05-19-2011, 09:19 AM
I would really not go into war crimes issue. Allied air fleets committed far worse war crimes than any of this divisions and nobody ever said one thing about prosecuting B-17 pilots that dropped nukes killing few hundred thousand civilians at one stroke alone...that of course was heroic deed ever to be celebrated in US history because all civilians are obviously not of equal or probative value

so one sided, finger pointing, off topic war crimes discussions would indeed be pitiful in my view at least

Then if the Allied air crews (as distinct from just pilots as they were all engaged in a supposedly common criminal enterprise) were guilty of war crimes for bombing civilians, so were the German and other Axis air crews who started the bombing of civilians.

So, in the interests of impartial justice, condemn the people who started the bombing of civilians, and who started the war, rather than just the people who finished the bombing of civilians, and who finished the war they didn't start by using the same tactics used by the people who started it. Just on a larger scale and more effectively.

As ye reap, so shall ye sow.

The biter bit.

And all that.

skorzeny57
05-19-2011, 09:38 AM
Does the "some other" option of the Poll include Borussia Dortmund? :)
If positive, does someone make me know something about it and i'll vote for them... :) ;)

flamethrowerguy
05-19-2011, 10:10 AM
One other thing, I noticed 40% people voting for Panzer Lehr. I thought they were "training" division as Lehr itself suggests, only fighting in Normandy in 1944 ?

Battlefield's Invasion of Normandy and Battle for Caen give much more credit to 12th SS Hitler Jugend fighting British Army almost alone for entire month (Goodwood and such :)), so I am a bit disappointed in Lehr or I am just misinformed...

Other divisions had muchhhh more bloody lifespan... 70.000 people cycled through LAAH for example - which means 50.000 dead KIA/WIA. At Prohorovka bulk of Russian tanks were destroyed by 3 Germanic SS divisions, 30 alone by Wittman on that occasion. GD and Das Reich are not far off either...

I would really not go into war crimes issue. Allied air fleets committed far worse war crimes than any of this divisions and nobody ever said one thing about prosecuting B-17 pilots that dropped nukes killing few hundred thousand civilians at one stroke alone...that of course was heroic deed ever to be celebrated in US history because all civilians are obviously not of equal or probative value

so one sided, finger pointing, off topic war crimes discussions would indeed be pitiful in my view at least

The original task of the Panzer-Lehr-Division (actually the largest German tank division ever deployed) was to smash a possible Allied invasion in France. Unfortunately for them they lost a huge part of their armoured vehicles and heavy weapons already on their way to the front caused by Allied air superiority (the infamous "Jabo road to St. Lo" as they called it).

tankgeezer
05-19-2011, 10:23 AM
Quote by Witman111: "In that case "Vergraben Registrierung Einheit" indeed did most work for Germany... very funny"

It wasn't meant to be funny.

Nickdfresh
05-19-2011, 12:32 PM
One other thing, I noticed 40% people voting for Panzer Lehr. I thought they were "training" division as Lehr itself suggests, only fighting in Normandy in 1944 ?

Battlefield's Invasion of Normandy and Battle for Caen give much more credit to 12th SS Hitler Jugend fighting British Army almost alone for entire month (Goodwood and such :)), so I am a bit disappointed in Lehr or I am just misinformed...

Other divisions had muchhhh more bloody lifespan... 70.000 people cycled through LAAH for example - which means 50.000 dead KIA/WIA. At Prohorovka bulk of Russian tanks were destroyed by 3 Germanic SS divisions, 30 alone by Wittman on that occasion. GD and Das Reich are not far off either...
....

I suggest reading a book on Normandy. It was far from just the Hitler Jungends that held the British in check with a bloody form of armored trench warfare. IIRC, it was at least six divisions heavy on panzers that contained the British beachhead. The fact that Monty was a bit of a walt didn't help things. But in the end, it was the British and Canadian Armies that tied down most of the panzers while the majority of U.S. forces were tied down in the bloody bocage, but ultimately allowing Cobra to eviscerate the Germans once the Americans broke through and ran free...

And I don't know what ****ing comic book you're getting your "history" from, but B-17 pilots never dropped nukes, attacking armed/defended cities really were not war crimes (technically), and WTF would that have to do with German divisions...


The original task of the Panzer-Lehr-Division (actually the largest German tank division ever deployed) was to smash a possible Allied invasion in France. Unfortunately for them they lost a huge part of their armoured vehicles and heavy weapons already on their way to the front caused by Allied air superiority (the infamous "Jabo road to St. Lo" as they called it).

Yep. Reading Beevor's D-Day and the Lehr was savaged by Allied raids targeting not just their tanks, but their trucks and supply dumps wrecking havoc on them and prolonging their movements to the sector by days. The Panzer Lehr got the best and brightest of everything. But in being the best, they were sent into the worst and the Lehr could almost be called the 'Matrix' division, since they were almost completely destroyed and rebooted more than once I believe. I voted for the Lehr actually not least of which for their skilled, heroic defense in Normandy in the face of an overwhelming Allied bludgeoning and idiotic orders from the 'Bohemian Corporal'...

witman111
06-03-2011, 08:41 AM
I posted elaborate replay about 7 days ago that got deleted.
If it was deleted on ground of breaking TOR I should have been warned about breaking the rules. Entire post got deleted but usual practice is only offensive sentence is marked and deleted and offender warned.

It concerned following:

Then if the Allied air crews (as distinct from just pilots as they were all engaged in a supposedly common criminal enterprise)

Well, planning and implementing a policy that explicitly involves deaths of thousands, not to mention millions, of civilians is war crime to any sane mind. The fact that Axis was doing the same is not excuse. If war crimes tribunal in Nuremberg charges war crimes in interest of justice it should have charged all perpetrators not only Axis members. And by this day International war crimes tribunal in Haag had NEVER pressed any charge on any big Allied nation on ANY grounds. And there certainly were opportunities after ww2 which literally involved deaths of millions.
So, justice is not served by International war crimes tribunal idea or it's equivalent.


were guilty of war crimes for bombing civilians, so were the German and other Axis air crews who started the bombing of civilians.
So, in the interests of impartial justice, condemn the people who started the bombing of civilians, and who started the war, rather than just the people who finished the bombing of civilians

It is limited thinking to omit discussion just on war time. There were reasons why war started as war is just extension of foreign policy. It comes down to fact that there was nobody to stop USA and UK from forming their empires in pre 20th century but for some reason they thought they should stop Germany and Japan from forming theirs - more or less using same methods as previous lot.

Certainly, Axis committed war crimes - no doubt there. My point is that every time some Axis valor is displayed out of the bushes comes somebody and says - war crimes. This especially relates to Germanic SS divisions. And to be honest, Allies especially Russians were on par with them as war crimes are concerned. But nobody speaks of 20 millions gone is gulags, over 2 million killed in firestorms and nuclear attacks etc - this was not done by Hitler so it surely must not be a war crime.

As for discussion whether Rommel/Witman/Manstein/Ulrich Rudel are heroes or not answer is clear. Had they fought for USA they would be super heroes - this way let's call them criminals for time being :confused:

witman111
06-03-2011, 08:47 AM
I suggest reading a book on Normandy. It was far from just the Hitler Jungends that held the British in check with a bloody form of armored trench warfare. IIRC, it was at least six divisions heavy on panzers that contained the British beachhead.
:confused::confused::confused::shock::shock::shock :
I recall 21st Panzer on left flank, 12th SS in center, Panzer Lehr on right and 301 or 501 heavy tank battalion that Witman was in. This units also engaged Canadians and were helped by nobody. Having in mind total air inferiority it is remarkable they held out as much as they have.

Rising Sun*
06-03-2011, 11:21 AM
Well, planning and implementing a policy that explicitly involves deaths of thousands, not to mention millions, of civilians is war crime to any sane mind.

War crimes are defined by international law and custom, which are influenced by what nations (as distinct from their sane citizens) want and think is acceptable in pursuit or defence of their national (i.e. predominantly the wealthy or influential) interests.

The problem is not with sane minds but with the lack of humanity in the laws of war drawn by sane minds trying to regulate the insanity of war within the confines of what nations will accept as limits upon their power to harm, kill, and lay waste in pursuit of their perceived national interests.

pdf27
06-03-2011, 11:28 AM
I posted elaborate replay about 7 days ago that got deleted.
If it was deleted on ground of breaking TOR I should have been warned about breaking the rules. Entire post got deleted but usual practice is only offensive sentence is marked and deleted and offender warned.
Chances are it got eaten when the board was hacked at about that time, and was then restored from an older backup. A number of posts were lost at this time, and we have been having problems with spammers since then.

If it was a mod who deleted it, then they would have given you multiple very clear warnings, and there would be a record of this in the War Room. While there is indeed a long thread about you in there, at no point in that thread does it mention any imminent plans to give you a warning or ban you.

ptimms
06-03-2011, 03:08 PM
I'm highly amused by Wittmans quote "At Prohorovka bulk of Russian tanks were destroyed by 3 Germanic SS divisions, 30 alone by Wittman on that occasion. GD and Das Reich are not far off either... "

Surely the 3 SS Divisions were the only ones at Prokhorvka so it wasn't hard to inflict the bulk of the casualities. Why is Das Reich not far off ? it's one of the 3 SS there.

I can't see Lehr ( which is made up of instructors Wittman not trainees), it is massively equipped ( 4 Panzer Grenadier and 1 Engineer battalion in nearly 700 half tracks 237 tanks and assault guns). It performs as well as any but not outstandingly in Normandy and never recovers from the losses. Although FTG have a look at Zetterling it was delayed by the bombing it did not suffer massive losses and the delays were more due to fuel shortages.

"Often the journey to Normandy by Pz.-Lehr has been described as a costly and prolonged affair due to intervention of allied air power. Often it is said that the Pz.-Lehr lost five tanks, 84 SPW and towing vehicles and 90 wheeled vehicles. But according to Ritgen, who at the time was commander of the repair and maintenance company of the Pz IV battalion, this initial report was exaggerated.10 The fact that the division lost 82 SPW and 10 towing vehicles during the entire month of June supports this judgement"

Zetterling is my source for above.

As for the vote I don't know as all the options were well equipped so should perform better how do you judge Lehr equipped as above as against the 31st SS which goes into action with only about 75% of it's troops armed!!

witman111
06-06-2011, 06:23 AM
Surely the 3 SS Divisions were the only ones at Prokhorvka so it wasn't hard to inflict the bulk of the casualities. Why is Das Reich not far off ? it's one of the 3 SS there.
lapsus calami


I can't see Lehr ( which is made up of instructors Wittman not trainees)
I know that. Lehr as learn...


While there is indeed a long thread about you in there
really ? I never imagined having long thread about me :lol::lol::lol:


- and think is acceptable in pursuit or defence of their national (i.e. predominantly the wealthy or influential) -
- within the confines of what nations will accept as limits upon their power to harm, kill, and lay waste in pursuit of their perceived national interests.

1) As ww2 showed, major nations have large threshold of acceptance on their power to harm, kill, and lay waste in pursuit of their perceived national interests.
2) Do not try to dilute the issue, fact is that Allies trialled Axis for much of same things they themselves have done.
The problem is laws or certain conventions were not signed by all, and war crimes tribunal in Nuremberg - as unified attempt to impose justice made mockery of justice as it took into account only losers.

flamethrowerguy
06-06-2011, 06:28 AM
I know that. Lehr as learn...

Nope...Lehr as teach.

Rising Sun*
06-06-2011, 06:46 AM
2) Do not try to dilute the issue, fact is that Allies trialled Axis for much of same things they themselves have done.

Examples?

Iron Yeoman
06-06-2011, 12:28 PM
Battlefield's Invasion of Normandy and Battle for Caen give much more credit to 12th SS Hitler Jugend fighting British Army almost alone for entire month (Goodwood and such :)), so I am a bit disappointed in Lehr or I am just misinformed...

The 12th SS got a snotting from the 43rd Wessex Division :D

pdf27
06-06-2011, 12:49 PM
really ? I never imagined having long thread about me :lol::lol::lol:
Actually, there are two about you. I would merge them but the board software doesn't let me.
And DON'T take it as a compliment. The majority of those with threads about them in the War Room are the forum problem children, who are behaving in such a way that we suspect a ban will be necessary for the good of the forum. Some do stay on (Herman being perhaps the most obvious example) but the majority get the boot after we've given them enough time to prove that they're the Neo-Nazi trolls that we suspected them to be from the beginning.

Nickdfresh
06-06-2011, 08:20 PM
The 12th SS got a snotting from the 43rd Wessex Division :D

And although Witman was a "panzer ace," he himself fell victim to the same sort of ambush he was so infamous for. Up to five Tigers died that day to the murderous crossfire of both 17-pounders and 75mm guns, along with Witman, without the loss of a single British Sherman.

Iron Yeoman
06-07-2011, 02:47 AM
And although Witman was a "panzer ace," he himself fell victim to the same sort of ambush he was so infamous for. Up to five Tigers died that day to the murderous crossfire of both 17-pounders and 75mm guns, along with Witman, without the loss of a single British Sherman.

What I find interesting is how everyone bangs on all the time about how terrifying and awesome the Tiger was. Granted great tank technically and did perform well on occasion but it was fairly slow, very heavy and a nightmare to run logistically. As the saying goes, 'amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics'.

For any of the SS fanbois that seem attracted to this site like squaddies to German brothel, try looking up a effective division on the winning side like the 43rd Wessex. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/43rd_(Wessex)_Infantry_Division

That's only a small article on wiki, but there are several good books on the Division.

Der Toten Kaiser
07-09-2011, 03:23 PM
Well, I'm an assumed fanboy of the Afrika Korps, because they did very good with the resources. I just don't like of the Waffen-SS divisions because of their war crimes... So I vote on Afrika Korps (21st Panzer Division)

Smoking Frog
07-24-2011, 03:33 PM
Hmm...perhaps I should have gone for the Afrika Korps, but I wasn't 'broad minded' enough to go for the 'none of the above option', so I've gone for SS Wiking. Always there or thereabouts when the tough fighting was going on, right into the streets of Berlin, and a pretty clean record on war crimes IIRC, so should be a non-controvertial choice ;)

Iron Yeoman
07-26-2011, 04:47 PM
Afrika Korps certainly a less controversial choice and a decent fighting formation as well, they gave my regiment a bloody nose at El Alamein!

imi
08-01-2011, 05:46 AM
My vote is Waffen SS Wiking,the Wiking have the toughest and disciplined units.
Anyway I think the Wehrmacht do the bigger part of the war

witman111
08-10-2011, 07:14 AM
First tks. to rising sun for explaining quoting mechanism. :):):)
Second, I got PM about infraction for "making shit up" !!!
Hardly a professional way of communication from official moderator of a forum.

On with this thread...


Examples?
1) executing POW, many cases especially Normandy. Long thread about it on this forum - you must have seen it. I think Meier or Peiper had reduced sentence on this account when he defended that Canadians killed captured SS soldiers.
2) Crimes against humanity. If it is not a crime against humanity to incinerate 50 cities in Japan and Germany I don't know what is
3) I could go into detail but it doesn't make much sense


The 12th SS got a snotting from the 43rd Wessex Division :D
Well 12th SS got a a snotting from entire British Army + few thousand bombers and Typhoones cripiling it's logistics. Fact is they hold out for a month where Montgomery expected them to capitualte first day of invasion.


Actually, there are two about you. I would merge them but the board software doesn't let me.
And DON'T take it as a compliment. The majority of those with threads about them in the War Room are the forum problem children, who are behaving in such a way that we suspect a ban will be necessary for the good of the forum. Some do stay on (Herman being perhaps the most obvious example) but the majority get the boot after we've given them enough time to prove that they're the Neo-Nazi trolls that we suspected them to be from the beginning.
Well, any hard evidence of me making stuff up so far ?



And although Witman was a "panzer ace," he himself fell victim to the same sort of ambush he was so infamous for. Up to five Tigers died that day to the murderous crossfire of both 17-pounders and 75mm guns, along with Witman, without the loss of a single British Sherman.
Well that WAS question of time when it would happen.



For any of the SS fanbois that seem attracted to this site like squaddies to German brothel, try looking up a effective division on the winning side like the 43rd Wessex. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/43rd_(Wessex)_Infantry_Division
That's only a small article on wiki, but there are several good books on the Division.
Well I think you Wessex would have run to mama at first snowfall let alone Cossack attack...:)

And connection with Blitzkrieg as some do not seem to understand:
1. Germans were first to utilize this strategy, Russian failed to understand it even after France. It was not Hitler who devised it bur rather able commanders like Guderian, Rommel and Kleist. They may not have called it Blitz at first but they knew what they were doing.
2. In attack on France Blitzkrieg was utilized in a way that panzer and armoured infantry divisions were placed in south while ordinary infantry in the north with clear intention that armoured thrust WOULD CUT THROUGH France and encircle Allied Armies in north. I say this because there was obvious CLEAR INTENT OF ENCIRCLEMENT
3. Southern thrust was given lavish Luftwaffe support to smash any opposition
4. So all component were here: motorized speed, encirclement, and massive aircraft support all at the same time. No broad front fighting trench warfare, but quick penetration and many small encirclements afterwards.
5. a) Hitler knew time was critical and insisted on attack as soon as possible through Belgium as was before. He even gave highest priority to production of artillery ammunition
b) Once acquainted with Manstein's plan he realized it's potential and decided that should be official plan. Period.

Totnekopf, LAAH and GrossDeutchland (not as divisions though I can't remember exact names) participated in southern thrust speeding through France to cut Allies off AS WAS INTENDED. Alongside Rommel Totenkopf came under attack from British and wavered until Rommel devised 88mm anti tank role.

Once AH topic is unlocked, questions posed there will be gladly answered.

cheers

Chevan
08-10-2011, 07:55 AM
F
1. Germans were first to utilize this strategy, Russian failed to understand it even after France. It was not Hitler who devised it bur rather able commanders like Guderian, Rommel and Kleist. They may not have called it Blitz at first but they knew what they were doing.

The Russians not failed to understand but denied to aply. Just like the allies later. The Blitzkrieg was rather risky tacktic and "phony" as strategy. Blitzkrieg has fully failed in Russia in winter 1941.When you have no mechanized superiority or the some circumstances like the weather bother you to use mechanized troops, Blitzkrieg turned to be a very effective way to waste your toops.

Chevan
08-10-2011, 07:57 AM
The Best German division was definitelly "Das Reich". I don't know about it's wars wins but doe to political correctness the unit that wear such a loud name is obligated to be the BEST:)

tankgeezer
08-10-2011, 08:00 AM
Quote from Wittman111: "Second, I got PM about infraction for "making shit up" !!!
Hardly a professional way of communication from official moderator of a forum"

Wittman, you are treading upon very thin ice. The staff is responsible for maintaining the quality of the boards, not you. You justly received an infraction for the reasons specified, they are not given lightly. If you got it, you certainly deserved it. You know very well what you are up to here, we also know. I recommend that you heed Nick's advice, you've already been given a final warning, so drop the backsass, and the trolling, or prepare to ease on down the road.

steben
08-10-2011, 08:27 AM
The Russians not failed to understand but denied to aply. Just like the allies later. The Blitzkrieg was rather risky tacktic and "phony" as strategy. Blitzkrieg has fully failed in Russia in winter 1941.When you have no mechanized superiority or the some circumstances like the weather bother you to use mechanized troops, Blitzkrieg turned to be a very effective way to waste your toops.

Blitzkrieg is indeed a tactical option. And in that way always useful. Part of the strategy but not the strategy itself. Fall Gelb and Fall Weiss were not wars, but short campaigns.
I remember Manstein's Kharkov raid as late as in winter 1943 too... There is no reason why a defensive couterattack can't be organised within blitzkrieg ideas.

Chevan
08-10-2011, 09:13 AM
Blitzkrieg is indeed a tactical option. And in that way always useful. Part of the strategy but not the strategy itself. Fall Gelb and Fall Weiss were not wars, but short campaigns.
I remember Manstein's Kharkov raid as late as in winter 1943 too... There is no reason why a defensive couterattack can't be organised within blitzkrieg ideas.
The Mainstain raid was just an exception after fall of Zitadel,( BTW the quick advance of Red Army to Kharkiv was also kinda Blitzkriege) the just cautch the moment for counterattack due to his hight professional experience.But it can't work all the time. In a case when the defence side has equal strenght and ready the Blitzkreig might be very risky.

steben
08-10-2011, 09:40 AM
The Mainstain raid was just an exception after fall of Zitadel,( BTW the quick advance of Red Army to Kharkiv was also kinda Blitzkriege) the just cautch the moment for counterattack due to his hight professional experience.But it can't work all the time. In a case when the defence side has equal strenght and ready the Blitzkreig might be very risky.

You will never win a chess game with a "super-queen piece." Or at least not alone.
There is no replacement for leadership, wit and intelligence.
Blitzkrieg is in a nutshell a tactical game of poker and deception and mostly short term concentration of force, counting on highly mobile mechanized troops, air support and fast communication. It works, if intelligent used and having logistics to do so.

leccy
08-10-2011, 11:25 AM
wittman111

This thread is a discussion of which German Division people think was the most effective and normally with reasons, not yet another thread to try and throw off topic.

wilkere
08-11-2011, 09:02 PM
I like the Penal unit in Hassel's book White Wheels of Terror.

flamethrowerguy
08-12-2011, 03:30 AM
I like the Penal unit in Hassel's book White Wheels of Terror.

Would that be the one that was equipped with Tiger I tanks? http://i831.photobucket.com/albums/zz236/Maldoror_2009/bullshit.gif

Chevan
08-12-2011, 05:25 AM
I guess they had ONE booty T-34:)
http://nnm.ru/blogs/vidokss/shtrafnoy_batalon_vermahta_999_strafbataillon_999_ 1959_dvdrip/

Iron Yeoman
08-12-2011, 10:52 AM
Well I think you Wessex would have run to mama at first snowfall let alone Cossack attack...:)



Which shows what you know about the division :rolleyes:

flamethrowerguy
08-12-2011, 11:46 PM
I guess they had ONE booty T-34:)
http://nnm.ru/blogs/vidokss/shtrafnoy_batalon_vermahta_999_strafbataillon_999_ 1959_dvdrip/

"Strafbataillon 999" was a classic - contrary to that Hassel rubbish.

witman111
08-25-2011, 02:31 AM
Which shows what you know about the division :rolleyes:
I really don't mind you boosting about British division. I guess it's only normal if you are British. And I don't know anything about Wessex. I am talking about entire British Army. Churchill himself said that whenever Germans and Allies met in anything like equal odds it is Germans who prevail. That quote is from Battlefield series - Invasion of Caen.

What bothers me is that you didn't take into account that your division was victorious only because of much sturdier stuff embodied in 62Army and few crazy but able commanders. This army is Russian Army, and commanders are Chuikov and Zhukov. Millions of Red Army soldiers are heroes who fought with pure heart in -30 degrees 2 meter snow, who hadn't eat for days like their German counterparts and who ultimately died in millions to whom your Wessex can thank it's victorious status. And to whom I here show utmost respect and commemoration for their belief and sacrifice. Mamev Kurgan really is historical and epic landmark.

Sadly, it is me acknowledging this - who looks at things from German point of view rather than you who looks from "Allied" British point of view.

But I guess that says enough.

pdf27
08-25-2011, 12:24 PM
Churchill himself said that whenever Germans and Allies met in anything like equal odds it is Germans who prevail.
That has a great deal more to do with German theories of command (specifically, the way their junior commanders were given instructions on what to achieve, rather than how to do it) than anything else. It is notable that this is now pretty much standard in Western armies - but wasn't in WW2. Furthermore, in the majority of such cases the Germans were on the defensive - and so with equal numbers would be expected to prevail.

leccy
08-25-2011, 12:54 PM
Wittman111


Sadly, it is me acknowledging this - who looks at things from German point of view rather than you who looks from "Allied" British point of view.

But I guess that says enough.

Unfortunately looking from that point of view you also fall into the trap of being blinkered, even Stalin and Zhukov admitted that without Western aid the Soviet Union probably could not have continued, without Britain there would have been no lend lease.

The Cold War made all sides look to themselves as being the victor, forgetting it was a united effort to defeat the Axis Powers.

Nickdfresh
08-25-2011, 07:41 PM
I...Churchill himself said that whenever Germans and Allies met in anything like equal odds it is Germans who prevail. That quote is from Battlefield series - Invasion of Caen.
...

Meaningless, pithy quotation. An army in defense should be able to stuff up attackers outnumbering it. Secondly, German forces undertaking offensive operations after the later half of 1944 were almost always stomped, especially in the Battle of the Bulge, where quit clearly Heer and SS infantry had forgotten the basic principles of fire and movement. And I'm talking instances where they heavily outnumbered American defenders and launched frontal attacks so horrid that the follow up infantry couldn't get over the bodies in the snow of their predecessors...

Chevan
08-25-2011, 11:30 PM
What bothers me is that you didn't take into account that your division was victorious only because of much sturdier stuff embodied in 62Army and few crazy but able commanders. This army is Russian Army, and commanders are Chuikov and Zhukov. Millions of Red Army soldiers are heroes who fought with pure heart in -30 degrees 2 meter snow, who hadn't eat for days like their German counterparts and who ultimately died in millions to whom your Wessex can thank it's victorious status. And to whom I here show utmost respect and commemoration for their belief and sacrifice. Mamev Kurgan really is historical and epic landmark.

Sadly, it is me acknowledging this - who looks at things from German point of view rather than you who looks from "Allied" British point of view.

Honestly, never seen such an amazing German:)
Nevertheless thanks for kind words to my countrymans.

Chevan
08-25-2011, 11:45 PM
Unfortunately looking from that point of view you also fall into the trap of being blinkered, even Stalin and Zhukov admitted that without Western aid the Soviet Union probably could not have continued, without Britain there would have been no lend lease.
.
Strategically the Britain , as a customer of lion's part of lend lise just bothered to SU to get full military support from USA. Endeed the Lend lise didn't played such a sugnificant role in the first , most dramatical period of war in 1941-42. But of course it had contributed much to the mechanized strategical offencives of 1944-45.

The Cold War made all sides look to themselves as being the victor, forgetting it was a united effort to defeat the Axis Powers.
But Cold war, in this sense, never stopped in the west, doesn't it?
Who does still believe that ALONE won the Japane?;)

Iron Yeoman
08-26-2011, 02:56 AM
I really don't mind you boosting about British division. I guess it's only normal if you are British. And I don't know anything about Wessex. I am talking about entire British Army. Churchill himself said that whenever Germans and Allies met in anything like equal odds it is Germans who prevail. That quote is from Battlefield series - Invasion of Caen.

What bothers me is that you didn't take into account that your division was victorious only because of much sturdier stuff embodied in 62Army and few crazy but able commanders. This army is Russian Army, and commanders are Chuikov and Zhukov. Millions of Red Army soldiers are heroes who fought with pure heart in -30 degrees 2 meter snow, who hadn't eat for days like their German counterparts and who ultimately died in millions to whom your Wessex can thank it's victorious status. And to whom I here show utmost respect and commemoration for their belief and sacrifice. Mamev Kurgan really is historical and epic landmark.

Sadly, it is me acknowledging this - who looks at things from German point of view rather than you who looks from "Allied" British point of view.

But I guess that says enough.

And equally one can argue the Western Allies efforts on the the western front took away manpower and resources that would have been deployed to the Eastern front, it cuts both ways. I have nothing but admiration for the Russian soldier, he is one tough cookie.

What I don't like is SS fanbois, who like to go on about how great the particular SS division they have a hard on for. Mostly due to their 'cool' uniform or the fact they were really disciplined (if you want to see real smartness and discipline then look no further than the Grenadier Guards). The fact is the SS had their arses handed to them on several occaisions are weren't that good. If they were they would have stopped the Russians and the Western Allies. I would suggest, if you haven't already, joining your country's armed forces, it'll be good for you.

steben
08-26-2011, 04:14 AM
What I don't like is SS fanbois, who like to go on about how great the particular SS division they have a hard on for. Mostly due to their 'cool' uniform or the fact they were really disciplined

Be careful not to drown your opinion in ridiculity.
Most anti-SS feelings are caused by the inherent nazi belief and mentality and brutal ways of warfare / treatment of POW / civilians, Jews ...
Simple devotion to a "cool uniform" is the last thing I would put on trial in Den Haag. :mrgreen:



(if you want to see real smartness and discipline then look no further than the Grenadier Guards).

ever heard of the real Scotsman?



The fact is the SS had their arses handed to them on several occaisions are weren't that good. If they were they would have stopped the Russians and the Western Allies. I would suggest, if you haven't already, joining your country's armed forces, it'll be good for you.

The Allied air superiority was devastating. The Western Allies won with their airforce.
The least you can say is that most SS divisions were, as was seen in the Wehrmacht, not deeply routed into desertion. Most German soldiers did suffer from low morale...

Iron Yeoman
08-26-2011, 04:31 AM
Be careful not to drown your opinion in ridiculity.
Most anti-SS feelings are caused by the inherent nazi belief and mentality and brutal ways of warfare / treatment of POW / civilians, Jews ...
Simple devotion to a "cool uniform" is the last thing I would put on trial in Den Haag. :mrgreen:


Well if that's not a good reason not to like the SS I don't know what is. My problem is that fanbois will often say 'I Like their uniforms not their politics etc. The uniforms are a symbol of their crimes, you get oddballs who like to go to the War & Peace show in the UK and dress up as SS Untersturmfuhers. Very strange individuals whom should be avoided at all costs.

steben
08-26-2011, 09:16 AM
Well if that's not a good reason not to like the SS I don't know what is. My problem is that fanbois will often say 'I Like their uniforms not their politics etc. The uniforms are a symbol of their crimes, you get oddballs who like to go to the War & Peace show in the UK and dress up as SS Untersturmfuhers. Very strange individuals whom should be avoided at all costs.

Or princes that dress up as an SA trooper ...? :lol:

Nickdfresh
08-27-2011, 05:25 PM
http://youtu.be/FsNLbK8_rBY

Vonss
08-29-2011, 02:19 AM
Then if the Allied air crews (as distinct from just pilots as they were all engaged in a supposedly common criminal enterprise) were guilty of war crimes for bombing civilians, so were the German and other Axis air crews who started the bombing of civilians. With all respect to you but The Germans were accused of all war crimes . The Allies got away with there bombings of innocent civilians and many more war crimes. No doubt, Axis and Allies did commit innocent deaths on civilian etc.....

IMHO, All German divisions knew how to fight, there were no such thing as a crap German division during WWII.

steben
08-29-2011, 04:28 AM
With all respect to you but The Germans were accused of all war crimes . The Allies got away with there bombings of innocent civilians and many more war crimes. No doubt, Axis and Allies did commit innocent deaths on civilian etc.....


winner takes it all
classic theory

In some chat groups and forums you cant' tell just anything.
If you criticize the Allies, you get all the blame
And if your grandparents actually lived under German occupation, don't try to praise them, because they are lucky lazy bastards for whom anglo-saxon Allies did it all and you will be just an arrogant "old" European, that owes them for centuries to come. :neutral:

The truth is, the US and the UK NEVER went through occupation and THEY should have been grateful that european citizens withstood the tiranny and organised resistance and effectively disrupted logistics, hurting the war machine at the east long before the "second front".



IMHO, All German divisions knew how to fight, there were no such thing as a crap German division during WWII.

Don't forget Volkssturm en Hitler Youth ... unless you don't count them in as "real" divisions.

flamethrowerguy
08-29-2011, 06:09 AM
IMHO, All German divisions knew how to fight, there were no such thing as a crap German division during WWII.

Right. I'd advice the German 70. Infanterie-Division. It was formed in July 1944 on the Dutch island Walcheren and surrendered to the Canadians three months later.
The division consisted of app. 20,000 men - all suffering from miscellaneous ailments of the gastric region. The unit's battalions were called "white bread battalions" due to their members collective diet.
In this context I also remember the Luftwaffe's S-Flakbatterie 1000 (0) - an AA battery of soldiers suffering from "psychogenic disorders".

Rising Sun*
08-29-2011, 07:24 AM
With all respect to you but The Germans were accused of all war crimes . The Allies got away with there bombings of innocent civilians

My point was that if the allied bombing campaigns in Germany were war crimes then, logically, so were the German bombing campaigns in the UK.

There tends in some quarters to be a focus on the terrible effects of the Allied bombing in Germany as if those terrible effects constitute a war crime, in the same way that the awful effects of the nuclear bombings in Japan are emotively determined to be war crimes, but the effects are irrelevant in determining whether the Allied or German bombing campaigns were war crimes. The question is simple: Was it a war crime to bomb cities and other civilian targets in the enemy's country or legitimate territory? If the answer is 'yes', then all Axis and Allied powers were guilty of that war crime. If the answer is 'no', then they weren't.


No doubt, Axis and Allies did commit innocent deaths on civilian etc.....

No doubt.

So what?

That's the nature of war.


IMHO, All German divisions knew how to fight, there were no such thing as a crap German division during WWII.

Then the Germans must have been unique, because no other nation was blessed with an army full of divisions which knew how to fight and weren't crap, even if only because at any given time other armies had training divisions; divisions working up to battle readiness; divisions recovering from battle losses; and even divisions (not to mention Patton's First US Army Group) which existed largely on paper.

witman111
08-29-2011, 08:42 AM
Wittman111
Unfortunately looking from that point of view you also fall into the trap of being blinkered, even Stalin and Zhukov admitted that without Western aid the Soviet Union probably could not have continued, without Britain there would have been no lend lease.

that is another ball game, but fact remains RA bled Wehrmacht dry, not some Wessex who by the way is mediocre - by the look of things from Wiki


Meaningless, pithy quotation.
you again. we are doing just fine without you closing people topics - thank you very much, but out will you
Anyway,
Is it quotation or not ?
and why is it meaningless ?


Secondly, German forces undertaking offensive operations after the later half of 1944 were almost always stomped, especially in the Battle of the Bulge, where quit clearly Heer and SS infantry had forgotten the basic principles of fire and movement. And I'm talking instances where they heavily outnumbered American defenders and launched frontal attacks so horrid that the follow up infantry couldn't get over the bodies in the snow of their predecessors...
1) not quite, casualty ration was 1:1 or 100.000 casualty on each side
2) Germans WERE OUT OF FUEL
3) Germans DID NOT HAVE air support
taking that into account I would say German performance was good


Honestly, never seen such an amazing German:)
Nevertheless thanks for kind words to my countrymans.
Thank you, I am just being realistic. Although I am not German but I have some German ancestry


And equally one can argue the Western Allies efforts on the the western front took away manpower and resources that would have been deployed to the Eastern front, it cuts both ways. I have nothing but admiration for the Russian soldier, he is one tough cookie.
True



What I don't like is SS fanbois, who like to go on about how great the particular SS division they have a hard on for. Mostly due to their 'cool' uniform or the fact they were really disciplined (if you want to see real smartness and discipline then look no further than the Grenadier Guards). The fact is the SS had their arses handed to them on several occaisions are weren't that good. If they were they would have stopped the Russians and the Western Allies. I would suggest, if you haven't already, joining your country's armed forces, it'll be good for you.
yet another fanboi provocation - why don't you crawls into your mice hole and read something like:
http://www.amazon.com/SS-Steel-Storm-Waffen-SS-1943-1945/dp/076030937X
or
http://www.amazon.com/Steel-Rain-Waffen-SS-Battles-1944-1945/dp/0785828680/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1314623830&sr=1-1
before posting your usual crap around.
So I highly recommend SS steel storm and SS steel rain by Tim Ripley before posting usual crapers.

There you will find enough facts, dates and figures that prove that by 1943 Germanic SS divisions were force one can really count on.

anyway why don't you start a thread titled "who likes Churchill and thinks Crommwell tanks are great ?" But no you have to come and smolder here...


Most anti-SS feelings are caused by the inherent nazi belief and mentality and brutal ways of warfare / treatment of POW / civilians, Jews ...
Here it goes. How about trial for Enola Gay who liquidated what ... 200.000 civilians in just one flight !!!
one SS division can only dream of such numbers :)
really, are you stupid and therefore unable to compare facts or is it just me ?

Note two things:
1. Liquidation of Jewish (or other) women, children and elderly really is gruesome and cowardly crime, but aside Totenkopf Germanic SS divisions were not grossly involved in such activities
2. People like Witman are no criminals, they fought cleanly for their fatherland. Period


My problem is that fanbois will often say 'I Like their uniforms not their politics etc. The uniforms are a symbol of their crimes,
1. This is no topic on war crimes so stop trolling please
2. Do you really have no other argument than war crimes. Let me ask you how many civilians have Allies killed ? And who was hold responsible ? That is without the Russians ...


All German divisions knew how to fight, there were no such thing as a crap German division during WWII.
not true, but that is another matter


My point was that if the allied bombing campaigns in Germany were war crimes then, logically, so were the German bombing campaigns in the UK.
AND NOBODY DISPUTES THAT



There tends in some quarters to be a focus on the terrible effects of the Allied bombing in Germany as if those terrible effects constitute a war crime
Do explain why is it war crime to let person die in concentration camp out of hunger and not if person is incinerated to ashes in fire storm ?

steben
08-29-2011, 08:54 AM
Here it goes. How about trial for Enola Gay who liquidated what ... 200.000 civilians in just one flight !!!
one SS division can only dream of such numbers :)
really, are you stupid and therefore unable to compare facts or is it just me ?

Now you're kicking on the one not kicking ... good job. I didn't talk about trials ... :confused: I stated anti-SS feelings don't come from uniforms
Seems some were right in fearing civil war between Wehrmacht and SS if nazi superstructure would be destroyed :shock: :lol:

I guess if the SS were really "dreaming" of such numbers, the feelings towards SS divisions are completely correct.




Do explain why is it war crime to let person die in concentration camp out of hunger and not if person is incinerated to ashes in fire storm ?

You don't understand. OR everyone was guilty, OR no one. Valid argument, no?

Chevan
08-29-2011, 10:56 AM
In this context I also remember the Luftwaffe's S-Flakbatterie 1000 (0) - an AA battery of soldiers suffering from "psychogenic disorders".
And weren't the all Luftvaffe divisions that crap?I heard that idea of Goering to creat the own infantry from the retared Luftwaffe personell suffer of military incompetence.

Iron Yeoman
08-29-2011, 03:12 PM
Well lads, the games up. According to Witman111 i'm a troll. Admittedley I am 6ft 2 and built like a brick outhouse so perhaps he's right. I could cut and paste his reply and answer his specfic points to me but quite frankly I have life and can't be asked to argue with him, I have to go soldiering! He and I will probably go round and round arguing with no end in sight so I'll make a closing statement and probably not comment again on this particular thread.

The German army was a pretty good fighting force, the Heer were on the whole well equipped and for the most part a motivated force and the vast majority of them were decent ordinary men. However, they weren't the supermen a lot of people think they were, otherwise the war would have had a different outcome. The SS on the other hand were scum. All of them, even the waffen SS that a lot of you seem to have a hard on for. They held fairly repugnant political and racial views and to be frank I'm glad my division gave the 12th SS and bloody good snotting in France.

Right, that's me done. Fanbois have at it, dissect my comments call me names whatever makes you happy, either way I don't particularly care.

tankgeezer
08-29-2011, 03:49 PM
Quote from Witman111 : "1) not quite, casualty ration was 1:1 or 100.000 casualty on each side
2) Germans WERE OUT OF FUEL
3) Germans DID NOT HAVE air support
taking that into account I would say German performance was good"

I would agree that the German forces did a right fine job of losing. I can't remember any other Country's Military being so efficient, or meticulous at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Now Witman, I'll put my mod hat on for a moment, you are being a bit rude to some of the other members, and its never a good idea to sass a moderator. Quote from Witmann111 to Nickdfresh:

"you again. we are doing just fine without you closing people topics - thank you very much, but out will you
Anyway,"
Quote by Witman111 to Iron Yoeman : "yet another fanboi provocation - why don't you crawls into your mice hole and read something like:
http://www.amazon.com/SS-Steel-Storm.../dp/076030937X
or
http://www.amazon.com/Steel-Rain-Waf...4623830&sr=1-1
before posting your usual crap around.
So I highly recommend SS steel storm and SS steel rain by Tim Ripley before posting usual crapers."

Quote from Witman111 to Iron Yoeman : "Here it goes. How about trial for Enola Gay who liquidated what ... 200.000 civilians in just one flight !!!
one SS division can only dream of such numbers
really, are you stupid and therefore unable to compare facts or is it just me ?"

Witman111 you have been warned against such behavior far more than once, You continue to run your mouth like a fanboi/troll/ loudmouth. (pick any two ) And at the last, you were warned that it was your last chance. And here you are yet again playing your silly games. You leave me no choice but to take action subsequent to your refusal to abide by the directions of other moderators.Witmann, you are given penance of a 90 day ban effective now.

leccy
08-29-2011, 06:28 PM
And weren't the all Luftvaffe divisions that crap?I heard that idea of Goering to creat the own infantry from the retared Luftwaffe personell suffer of military incompetence.

Reading up on the Luftwaffe Field Divisions they were pretty bad. Many had limited equipment and training when formed and were commanded by Officers with no field experience and in some cases no training.
Most Wehrmacht Divisions when formed were formed around a Cadre of experienced trained personnel, these were used to help train the new members. The Luftwaffe Field Divisions never had this and were eventually handed over to the Heer and reconstituted as proper Wehrmacht units.

Rising Sun*
08-29-2011, 08:59 PM
Do explain why is it war crime to let person die in concentration camp out of hunger and not if person is incinerated to ashes in fire storm ?

Because the first has nothing to do with pursuit of military operations against the enemy and the second does.

Also, the first is a crime against humanity while the second, if a crime, is a war crime.

steben
08-30-2011, 08:48 AM
Because the first has nothing to do with pursuit of military operations against the enemy and the second does.

Also, the first is a crime against humanity while the second, if a crime, is a war crime.

wow hings are getting complicated :)
To make things clear (and I concur):
eelimination/concentration camps are subject of "crimes against humanity"
bombing of innocent civilians are subject of "war crimes"

On the other hand, it's easy to mix both up, since they are crimes.

leccy
08-30-2011, 11:56 AM
Crimes against humanity are a crime against the human race as a whole. ie The final solution.

War crimes are those between individuals and their victims. ie The Le Paradis massacre.

To many it may be a fine line but there is a line and it has to be drawn somewhere.

ptimms
09-03-2011, 02:12 AM
A list of crap Divisions would be a more interesting debate, I give you 21st SS Skanderbeg, from Wiki.

The Division was placed under the command of SS-Standartenführer August Schmidthuber, later promoted to SS-Oberführer. It fought against the Communist partisan forces of Enver Hoxha who were on the increase and consolidating their actions, both in Albania and Yugoslavia as the Second World War was drawing to an end. The Division was very poorly led with a serious dearth of instructors, Albanian officers or NCOs.

The Division was operational for only a few months (February 1944 – November 1944), with a strength of about 6,000 - 6,500 rather than the normal strength of a division (10,000-20,000). Many recruits deserted with their new weapons and boots, and by October 1944 their number had dwindled to around 3500. It appears they often refused to fight or to take orders, and it never became a significant force.

"The Germans were forced to disarm battalions at Pec and Prizren, arresting the Albanian officers and sending them to the camp at Prishtina

Rising Sun*
09-03-2011, 07:25 AM
The Division was operational for only a few months (February 1944 – November 1944), with a strength of about 6,000 - 6,500 rather than the normal strength of a division (10,000-20,000).

The number of troops in a German division could be hugely variable.

I was trying to find my source for this recently in relation to a different issue but, alas, I can't.

My recollection is that some German 'divisions' could be as small as a couple or few battalions in some garrison 'divisions' and that other 'divisions' in various parts of the Heer weren't anywhere near the size of a normal division.

Nickdfresh
09-03-2011, 12:38 PM
....
you again. we are doing just fine without you closing people topics - thank you very much, but out will you
Anyway,
Is it quotation or not ?
and why is it meaningless ?

Others' topics? You mean the ones' you thread-jack with OFF-topic apologia spam?



1) not quite, casualty ration was 1:1 or 100.000 casualty on each side

The U.S. est. were about 89-90,000 casualties. German est's a a bit more sketchy due to their decaying situation. But they probably suffered closer to 100,000 casualties that they could far more ill-afford than the Americans could. But the Bulge was not merely a German offensive, it was also a sustained, lengthy Allied counteroffensive that was conducted in a grueling and unimaginative manner due to the political considerations and embarrassment over losing liberated territory....


2) Germans WERE OUT OF FUEL

Which means they were being crushed on a strategic level, and the offensive was folly...


3) Germans DID NOT HAVE air support

COMPLETELY FALSE! The Luftwaffe was actually quite active in the battle and extensively bombed Bastogne and actually launched one of the most ambitious tactical air campaigns to destroy Allied fighters on the ground, I think each side lost something of 500 fighters give or take. Again, something the Allies could afford, the Luftwaffe couldn't.


taking that into account I would say German performance was good

They didn't reach any of their major objectives in the given time tables, even when they had fuel and the cover of bad weather. They also suffered rather heavy losses of vehicles even in the opening stages where the GI's were bugging out...