View Full Version : If the Type-23 sub was introduced earlier could it of changed the out come of the war

05-12-2011, 04:54 AM
The type 23 sub could of been debated as the first real sub because it traveled faster underwater than on top of water, could be submerged longer than any other sub out there and it had great fire power 6 torpedo tubes facing forward. I was wondering if this was introduced sooner could it of successfully strangled Brittan of supply's and made her surrender and changed the tide of the war?

05-12-2011, 07:01 AM
Would have had to be introduced a LOT earlier, without any response at all from the allies. In reality, there was little prospect of it appearing in quantity any earlier, and the allies would have reacted strongly if there was.

Oh, and I think you mean the Type 21 (XXI) - the Type 23 was a coastal-only U-boat without the range or seakeeping ability to threaten the Atlantic convoys...

05-12-2011, 07:04 AM
I also think you mean "Britain." :)

05-12-2011, 07:06 AM
I probably do It is very confusing between those two. But there wasn't much response to the u-Boat threat with the type 7's if the type 7's were replaced with the much more modern type 21 then the allies would of tried to fight the type 21 a lot like they tried to fight the type 7

05-12-2011, 01:27 PM
But how and when? The way they fought Type VII's in 1940 (depth charges and ramming on the rare occasions that they found one) was very different to the way they did so by 1944 (sonobuoys and homing torpedoes dropped from aircraft). The way they did it in 1944 is in essence pretty much the same way that submarines are fought now - and while the weapons were pretty crude, the Type XXI's were nothing like as quiet underwater as a modern submarine, particularly when schnorkelling...

05-13-2011, 09:42 AM
I think our counter measures would have kept the pace and neutralised the threat.

These would have included stepped up destruction of manufacturing and supply facilities for the boats.

Timbo in Oz
09-15-2011, 10:11 PM
For Royal Tiger,

Could you perhaps learn to write could have, would have, please.

And don't write 'I am bored of this post', either the correct grammar will be 'I am bored with .....' okay.


09-16-2011, 01:29 AM
Absolutely not - even if they were able to manufacture a huge amount of them, I can't imagine that a submarine would be able to change the war itself. The allies would compensate for it, just like they did when the ME-262 began fighting against them.

09-16-2011, 04:45 AM
And what did the allies to compensate the Me-262?

09-16-2011, 05:39 AM
The Germans actually built 118 type XXI boats between 1943 and 1945, the first war patrol by one was in April 1945 and only 4 managed war patrols at all. Over half the Boats were in service in 1944 but with severe problems and were deemed unfit for active service.

The ideas etc may have been advanced but the Germans never managed to actually perfect the subs, there were many problems with the design and implementations. They cut some corners and went too technical in others, the ability to construct them was also very poor and they suffered many leaks as the units did not fit together properly and required extensive yard time to correct.

09-16-2011, 05:46 AM
And what did the allies to compensate the Me-262?

The allies had Jets ready for combat but due to the inherent problems with the first jets (slow throttle response etc) and particularly with the ME 262 lack of fuel and only a 10 hour engine life, there was not so much of a need to counter the relatively few ME262 that could be put in the air in an air to air role.

The Germans were forced to defend the Jet airbases with piston engined fighters due to the allies tactic of waiting for the Jets to return and pouncing on them on their approach when they were extremely vulnerable.

So the allies developed a successful tactic in the West at least to counter them.

09-18-2011, 09:42 PM
Me 262 engine life was initial 10-12 hours but this increased to 25-50 hours in 1945. New engines were in the pipe line at the end of the war with improved alloys that was thought to reach > 150 hours . So the availability of the jets would have improved had the fuel supply remained. That was the biggest problem, lack of fuel since this also lead to lack of flying hours to train new pilots. In one book I was reading , by 1944 the allied pilots were getting average of 335-390 flying hours [total] , while nazi pilots were averaging only 140 hours. With the German fuel losses their flying hours for 1945 may be 1/3 to 1/4 of their allied adversaries. The initial prototypes of these jets had engines that got up to 250 hours bench test but used too much strategic alloy. Given the importance of the bomber intercept mission an argument could be made to compromise on strategic metals to get enough of these alloys for the jet engines.

In air combat the skills of the pilot determine the out come of most air battles.