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Bergh
05-09-2011, 02:52 PM
Hi everyone.

I'm going to paint a wargaming army, its Germans in long greatcoats, some have somekind of "shirt" over the greatcoats, guess this is winter camo?

Found this photo on wikipedia:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-268-0178-10%2C_Russland%2C_Soldaten_am_Stra%C3%9Fenrand.jpg

Is this the normal way of doing snow camouflage?
Seen some pictures where they also have white pants, how normal is this?
Where there white greatcoats?

Generally I need help paint my wargaming army so its historical correct.

-Bergh

skorzeny57
05-09-2011, 04:32 PM
In the first picture (left) note the special Luftwaffe padded grey/white parka. In the other picture (right), German soldiers somewhere on Eastern Front.

Bergh
05-09-2011, 05:19 PM
Thanks,

The picture on the right, are those just thin jackets and pants, which they took over there normal clothes, anyone know this?

Just for reference, this is the miniatures im going to paint, here at the store site, they are all just painted grey, and some with a brown-ish camo.

http://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=1043

http://www.flamesofwar.com/Portals/0/all_images/german/Infantry/GE720e.jpg

skorzeny57
05-10-2011, 12:36 PM
The picture on the right, are those just thin jackets and pants, which they took over there normal clothes, anyone know this?

At first sight, in that and other pictures, they seem just thin and waterproof jackets and pants, which they wear over winter uniforms. On the book "The road to Stalingrad" (from the Series "THIRD REICH" edited by Time-Life Inc.) i found this Winter Combat, that it was a reversible uniform from green-camo (left) to white-snow (right). I hope it may help you.

Bergh
05-10-2011, 08:02 PM
I did know about the reversible uniform, but what if they used the long greatcoat? like in the picture link I included in the first post?

Uyraell
05-10-2011, 08:27 PM
It should be remembered that due to stark lack of their own supplies being available, many German soldiers stripped white camo suits from dead Russians and employed those same suits, similarly with the white of grey-white greatcoats. In fact the supplies were to large degree simply not distributed to the German troops, even though they were for the most part in existence.

For the purposes of historical accuracy, therefore, you'd be wise to consider "equipping" your German troops with Russian camosuits and greatcoats to the proportion of 45% or so of any given unit.

Believe me: had I been a German soldier in need of winter wear, I'd have stripped a dead or prisoner Russian of his greatcoat or camosuit without hesitation. Reason being: The Russian's war is already over: I would certainly intend to survive my war.

Respectful Regards, Uyraell.

Bergh
05-10-2011, 09:04 PM
Thanks for that usefull post Uyreall.

generally what i read, is that i have very free hands on painting my wargaming army.

Bergh
05-10-2011, 09:08 PM
Note: Updated with some pictures

Uyraell
05-10-2011, 11:43 PM
Thanks for that usefull post Uyreall.

generally what i read, is that i have very free hands on painting my wargaming army.

You are most welcome, Bergh.

For true accuracy, you would also consider having tiny pieces of newspaper being visible behind the folds of a coat on the chest area, at the wrists, and at the ankles. Reason is: where a German soldier could not obtain winter gear, he padded out his normal uniform with sheets of newspaper in order to have some method of retaining such small amount of body warmth as he might have. Similarly, few men had spare socks in winter. Few had the issued mittens or gloves, and so were forced by the cold into wearing their spare pair of socks on their hands in place of mittens.

Kind Regards Bergh, Uyraell.

skorzeny57
05-11-2011, 01:01 PM
I did know about the reversible uniform, but what if they used the long greatcoat? like in the picture link I included in the first post?

I think that if they used the greatcoats of the pic you posted, they couldn't wear any kind of jackets, reversible of not... Anyway, on the same book that i mentioned before, i found the pic of this long overcoat.
5467
Here's the caption : Drivers, sentinels and all the personnel whose duty required to stay outside in the terrible russian winter, were the most exposed to the risk of freezing. So they were equipped with special wool-wadded over coats, too heavy for active troops, matched to big felt overshoes, with insulating-wood soles, seven centimeters thick.

flamethrowerguy
05-11-2011, 02:54 PM
Hi everyone.

I'm going to paint a wargaming army, its Germans in long greatcoats, some have somekind of "shirt" over the greatcoats, guess this is winter camo?

Found this photo on wikipedia:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-268-0178-10%2C_Russland%2C_Soldaten_am_Stra%C3%9Fenrand.jpg

Is this the normal way of doing snow camouflage?
Seen some pictures where they also have white pants, how normal is this?
Where there white greatcoats?

Generally I need help paint my wargaming army so its historical correct.

-Bergh

This photo shows improvised winter gear during the 1941/42 winter in the Soviet Union, you can see that even curtains and table cloths were used.
The "Heeres-Pelzmantel" had various colourations from white to beige.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/343292-1/3+Germans+in+heavy+overcoats

Nickdfresh
05-11-2011, 05:21 PM
Yeah, wasn't there a drive in greater Germany for civilians to donate winter weather items to the troops?

Nickdfresh
05-11-2011, 05:23 PM
Hi everyone.

I'm going to paint a wargaming army, its Germans in long greatcoats, some have somekind of "shirt" over the greatcoats, guess this is winter camo?

Found this photo on wikipedia:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-268-0178-10%2C_Russland%2C_Soldaten_am_Stra%C3%9Fenrand.jpg

Is this the normal way of doing snow camouflage?
Seen some pictures where they also have white pants, how normal is this?
Where there white greatcoats?

Generally I need help paint my wargaming army so its historical correct.

-Bergh

The soldier second from the right obviously suffered post-traumatic self-esteem issues after the War. :)

flamethrowerguy
05-12-2011, 04:16 PM
Yeah, wasn't there a drive in greater Germany for civilians to donate winter weather items to the troops?

Yes, the so-called "Pelz- und Wollspende" (fur & wool donation). A well-meant yet ineffective undertaking.

flamethrowerguy
05-12-2011, 04:26 PM
The soldier second from the right obviously suffered post-traumatic self-esteem issues after the War. :)

And he was probably not alone in this...

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5469&d=1305235463

Nickdfresh
05-12-2011, 04:49 PM
Yes, the so-called "Pelz- und Wollspende" (fur & wool donation). A well-meant yet ineffective undertaking.

My understanding is that there really wasn't as much of a shortage of Wehrmacht winter gear as it was a matter of not really having a means to deliver it to the troops. The question was rather should vital and limited rail, truck, and cart space be devoted to ammunition/food, or the niceties of winter overcoats?

Grenadier
06-20-2011, 05:36 AM
If I'm not mistaken, in the first winter 41 the winter gear was held back because the high command was still expecting the victory before
winter and didn't supply the troops with the necessary equipment to force them into Moscow even if some comanding officers were asking for it. Truth or just myth?

flamethrowerguy
06-20-2011, 06:08 AM
...to force them into Moscow even if some comanding officers were asking for it. Truth or just myth?

And hereby accept that Wehrmacht & Waffen-SS lose more casualties to the cold than actually caused by hostilities? Unlikely...

Grenadier
06-20-2011, 06:27 AM
I have to learn how to communicate in a forum... :oops: don't know how to use the tools...

I also doubt that they held back winter supply but I thought I have read somewhere... Maybe Mr. Knoop is not the right source :mrgreen:

Peacejager
06-20-2011, 10:55 AM
Grenadier I have always heard and read that the German high command didn't supply winter gear during the first year because they thought they wouldn't need it,I don't think it was to "force" the troops into getting to Moscow before winter,I have never heard that. Hitler told his armies to stop and wait when they were within sight of Moscow....then when he gave the go ahead the rains came and bogged them down. I believe the delay was so he could try to capture Stalingrad first. I agree it wasn't that winter gear was not available just the supply problems as Nickd said.

flamethrowerguy
06-20-2011, 02:20 PM
Maybe Mr. Knoop is not the right source :mrgreen:

You mean the German younger generations' "guilty conscience reminder"?;)

Grenadier
06-21-2011, 05:31 AM
You mean the German younger generations' "guilty conscience reminder"?;)

exactly. It is okay to remember and learn from history, but he's going far beyond... just my humble opinion.

Grenadier
06-21-2011, 05:39 AM
Grenadier I have always heard and read that the German high command didn't supply winter gear during the first year because they thought they wouldn't need it,I don't think it was to "force" the troops into getting to Moscow before winter,I have never heard that. Hitler told his armies to stop and wait when they were within sight of Moscow....then when he gave the go ahead the rains came and bogged them down. I believe the delay was so he could try to capture Stalingrad first. I agree it wasn't that winter gear was not available just the supply problems as Nickd said.

Stalingrad was in Autumn/winter 42/43. Heeresgruppe Mitte was defeated in winter 41 near Moscow by "General Winter" and fresh troops coming
from East. But I think you're right about winter gear. They hesitated too long and didn't have enough transport capacity then. But in such conditions I wouldn't think of winter overcoats as niceties... ;-)