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Nickdfresh
05-02-2011, 06:46 AM
2 May 2011 Last updated at 07:41 ET

US forces kill Osama Bin Laden in Pakistan

The BBC's Adam Brookes: US intelligence analysts believed the compound was "the sort of place that you might try to hide"

Al-Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden has been killed by US forces in Pakistan, President Barack Obama has said.

Bin Laden was killed in a ground operation outside Islamabad based on US intelligence, the first lead for which emerged last August.

Mr Obama said after "a firefight", US forces took possession of the body.

Bin Laden is believed to be the mastermind of the attacks on New York and Washington on 11 September 2001 and a number of others.

He was top of the US' "most wanted" list.

Mr Obama said it was "the most significant achievement to date in our nation's effort to defeat al-Qaeda".

The US has put its embassies around the world on alert, warning Americans of the possibility of al-Qaeda reprisal attacks for Bin Laden's killing.
Continue reading the main story
Analysis
Roger Hardy Islamic affairs analyst

How will al-Qaeda react? In the short term, the Obama administration is already bracing itself for possible revenge attacks. But for many the bigger question is whether, in the longer run, al-Qaeda can survive.

Since the start of the year, some experts have argued that the uprisings in the Arab world have rendered it irrelevant. They will see Bin Laden's death as confirming the trend. Perhaps.

But the root causes of radical Islam - the range of issues that enabled al-Qaeda to recruit disaffected young Muslims to its cause - remain, for the most part, unaddressed. The death of Bin Laden will strike at the morale of the global jihad, but is unlikely to end it.

Crowds gathered outside the White House in Washington DC, chanting "USA, USA" after the news emerged.

A US official quoted by Associated Press news agency said Bin Laden's body had been buried at sea, although this has not been confirmed.
Compound raided

Bin Laden had approved the 9/11 attacks in which nearly 3,000 people died.

He evaded the forces of the US and its allies for almost a decade, despite a $25m bounty on his head.

Mr Obama said he had been briefed last August on a possible lead to Bin Laden's whereabouts.

"It was far from certain, and it took many months to run this thread to ground," Mr Obama said.

"I met repeatedly with my national security team as we developed more information about the possibility that we had located Bin Laden hiding within a compound deep inside of Pakistan.

"And finally, last week, I determined that we had enough intelligence to take action, and authorised an operation to get Osama Bin Laden and bring him to justice," the president said.
Osama Bin Laden Bin Laden was top of the US "most wanted" list

On Sunday, US forces said to be from the elite Navy Seal Team Six undertook the operation in Abbottabad, 100km (62 miles) north-east of Islamabad.

After a "firefight" Bin Laden was killed and his body taken by US forces, the president said.

Mr Obama said "no Americans were harmed".

US officials said Bin Laden was shot in the head after resisting.

US media reports said that the body was buried at sea to conform with Islamic practice of a burial within 24 hours and to prevent any grave becoming a shrine.

Giving more details of the raid, one senior US official said a small US team had conducted the attack in about 40 minutes.

Three other men were killed in the raid - one of Bin Laden's sons and two couriers - the official said, adding that one woman was also killed when she was used as "a shield" and two other women were injured.

One helicopter was lost due to "technical failure". The team destroyed it and left in its other aircraft.

One resident, Nasir Khan, told Reuters the helicopters had come under "intense firing" from the ground.

The size and complexity of the structure in Abbottabad had "shocked" US officials.

It had 4m-6m (12ft-18ft) walls, was eight times larger than other homes in the area and was valued at "a million dollars", though it had no telephone or internet connection.

The US official said that intelligence had been tracking a "trusted courier" of Bin Laden for many years. The courier's identity was discovered four years ago, his area of operation two years ago and then, last August, his residence in Abbottabad was found, triggering the start of the mission.

Another senior US official said that no intelligence had been shared with any country, including Pakistan, ahead of the raid.

"Only a very small group of people inside our own government knew of this operation in advance," the official said.
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Barack Obama gives a statement confirming the death of Osama Bin Laden

The Abbottabad residence is just a few hundred metres from the Pakistan Military Academy - the country's equivalent of West Point.

The BBC's Aleem Maqbool in Abbottabad says it will undoubtedly be a huge embarrassment to Pakistan that Bin Laden was found not only in the country but also on the doorstep of the military academy.

He says residents in the town were stunned the al-Qaeda leader was living in their midst.

The senior US official warned that the possibility of revenge attacks had now created "a heightened threat to the homeland and to US citizens and facilities abroad".

But the official added that "the loss of Bin Laden puts the group on a path of decline that will be difficult to reverse".

He said Bin Laden's probable successor, Ayman al-Zawahiri, was "far less charismatic and not as well respected within the organisation", according to reports from captured al-Qaeda operatives.
'Momentous achievement'

World leaders welcomed the news of Bin Laden's death.

Afghan President Hamid Karzai said Bin Laden had "paid for his actions".

Pakistani PM Yusuf Raza Gilani said the killing was a "great victory" but added that he "didn't know the details" of the US operation.
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Former US President George W Bush described the news as a "momentous achievement".

"The fight against terror goes on, but tonight America has sent an unmistakable message: No matter how long it takes, justice will be done," Mr Bush said in a statement.

But a spokesman for the Pakistani Taliban threatened revenge attacks against the "American and Pakistani governments and their security forces".

BBC security correspondent Frank Gardner says that, to many in the West, Bin Laden became the embodiment of global terrorism, but to others he was a hero, a devout Muslim who fought two world superpowers in the name of jihad.

The son of a wealthy Saudi construction family, Bin Laden grew up in a privileged world. But soon after the Soviets invaded Afghanistan he joined the mujahideen there and fought alongside them with his Arab followers, a group that later formed the nucleus for al-Qaeda.

After declaring war on America in 1998, Bin Laden is widely believed to have been behind the bombings of US embassies in East Africa, the attack on the USS Cole in Yemen in 2000 and the attacks on New York and Washington.

BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13256676)

pdf27
05-02-2011, 07:01 AM
The main item of interest here is any paperwork they may have grabbed from the compound - it would be very useful indeed to find out who in ISI has been funding and protecting him for all these years and arrange for them to cease doing so...

Rising Sun*
05-02-2011, 10:09 AM
1. I'm glad the ****'s dead.

2. Now wait for the avalanche of conspiracy theories saying he's not.

3. While at the same time the Islamofascists supporting the conspiracy theories will demonstrate their legendary illogicality and congenital stupidity by elevating him to martyr status.

4. Meanwhile, political gymnastics of Olympic standard will be performed by Pakistan to demonstrate to the world that it knew nothing of the viper it harboured in its breast.

5. It won't change anything much that's going on in the world.

6. Still, I'm glad the ****'s dead. Wipe out a few more thousand or whatever number of his ilk and the world will be a better place (although that represents my prejudices against everything that his lot stand for).

skorzeny57
05-02-2011, 11:17 AM
I agree that not many things will change with his death, all around the world. The biggest risk it's gonna be a terrorism upswing, in the name of a new martyr... Since now, every bomb-car driver will have a new reason to push his pedal to the metal...

Another thing that's really pissed me off, is the way the media manipulate everything in real time. When the new of his death arrived here in Italy, early this morning, it was already associated to the right picture, that is an evident mix between the one at left and the one in the middle.

tankgeezer
05-02-2011, 06:16 PM
This was fw'd to me,, RIP OBL, World hide and seek champion, 2001-2011.

Churchill
05-02-2011, 07:46 PM
I dunno, to have killed him on Sunday, and then dump him in the ocean? Why not keep him for a bit longer, I don't know, long enough to bring him to the US?

tankgeezer
05-02-2011, 08:03 PM
I dunno, to have killed him on Sunday, and then dump him in the ocean? Why not keep him for a bit longer, I don't know, long enough to bring him to the US?
Too dangerous to hold him anywhere, his nutburger pals will take an ocean liner hostage for his release, or some such, at any rate better him dead, and in the drink. (really, he has been moved to the "Village" where all they want is information..........)
The best thing to do is forget he ever lived, stricken from the history books, erased from existence.

Nickdfresh
05-02-2011, 08:40 PM
I dunno, to have killed him on Sunday, and then dump him in the ocean? Why not keep him for a bit longer, I don't know, long enough to bring him to the US?

They were trying to follow Islamic custom of burial as best they could while avoiding making a shrine.

I suspect, there's more to the story...

VonWeyer
05-03-2011, 02:35 AM
I just hope that nobody sees him down in Mexico next week;).

Iron Yeoman
05-03-2011, 07:01 AM
They were trying to follow Islamic custom of burial as best they could while avoiding making a shrine.

I suspect, there's more to the story...

One hopes he was wrapped in Bacon, with a sausage shoved up his arse and buried with several jazz mags.

Good riddance to bad rubbish, and Tankgeezer you beat me to it! I was going to put up the world hide & seek champion gag, as it stands now al Zawhiri his no.2 is the new world champion with Mullah Omar moving up from 3rd to 2nd place.

navyson
05-03-2011, 07:34 PM
I was reading the news articles about this on Yahoo. Someone posted an apt comment below one of the articles: "The last thing Osama Bin Laden saw was an American face." Nothing like justice.

pdf27
05-04-2011, 01:11 AM
I was reading the news articles about this on Yahoo. Someone posted an apt comment below one of the articles: "The last thing Osama Bin Laden saw was an American face." Nothing like justice.
And this was indeed nothing like justice - it was revenge, pure and simple. Not something I'm gravely concerned about, but don't confuse this with justice...

navyson
05-04-2011, 06:43 AM
And this was indeed nothing like justice - it was revenge, pure and simple. Not something I'm gravely concerned about, but don't confuse this with justice...
Okay, I'll take revenge.:mrgreen:

Rising Sun*
05-04-2011, 08:58 AM
"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." (usually attributed to Churchill, but source unknown)

Rising Sun*
05-04-2011, 09:23 AM
And this was indeed nothing like justice - it was revenge, pure and simple. Not something I'm gravely concerned about, but don't confuse this with justice...

Where is the injustice in the killing by America of a man who murdered several thousand Americans, and other nationalities in America, on 9/11. Not to mention many others elsewhere, including a couple of hundred in Bali in 2002 of which a little less than half were my countrymen.

Extra-legal killing perhaps, but unjust?

I regard his death as pure, if rough, justice.

But if one wants to argue that it was not justice (and ignoring the lack of justice - in the sense of fairness or equality - in much of the domestic and international legal systems), what was the alternative that would have brought him to justice?

The Pakistani legal system, with its great commitment to human rights (e.g. failure to prosecute men who harm or kill women in 'honour killings') :( :( :( in a nation where the central government has little power over the tribal areas where the Taliban etc are steadily building to the point where in the not too distant future the rest of the world will probably face a nuclear armed nation of Islamic fanatics? It's hardly an accident that bin Laden lived in relative luxury in a military enclave in Pakistan while the rest of the world thought he was living in a cave.

Sure, America exercised power rather than law (albeit justly) in executing bin Laden, but how is that different to most other nations?

Given a choice between America exercising its power in these circumstances and the likes of bin Laden exercising their power when given sanctuary by the former Taliban regime in Afghanistan, I'd rather it was America.

skorzeny57
05-04-2011, 09:31 AM
I think it's sometimes hard to realize where revenge ends and where justice starts.

Rising Sun*
05-04-2011, 09:36 AM
I think it's sometimes hard to realize where revenge ends and where justice starts.

Does it matter, when an aggressive cancer like bin Laden (or Hitler, or Tojo, or Pol Pot, or Idi Amin) is cut out of humankind?

skorzeny57
05-04-2011, 09:54 AM
Does it matter, when an aggressive cancer like bin Laden (or Hitler, or Tojo, or Pol Pot, or Idi Amin) is cut out of humankind?

Don't misunderstand me, Rising Sun*... I agree 200% about what you wrote in your previous post. Since the "International justice" doesn't work the way it should, i go for extra-legal killing ( as you call them)... As far as i concerned, i think it 's inconceivable that a bloody criminal like him may have been on the run for almost ten years... Mine it was only an ironic post about the typical attitude that we have , in order to find excuses and explanations about every event...

Rising Sun*
05-04-2011, 10:31 AM
Mine it was only an ironic post about the typical attitude that we have , in order to find excuses and explanations about every event...

I think it's good that we examine all serious events for whatever it is that matters to us on a moral, legal or other basis.

But the contemporary world has gone silly with political correctness, which comes from the comfortable lives so many of us live which enable us to deliver uninformed opinions about the conduct of people we don't know in circumstances we haven't experienced because those people are protecting us from people we don't want to meet.


The hard reality is that sometimes what we'd like in an ideal world is very different to what we have to do to live in the real world. Ignoring the circumstances which led to this fictional comment in A Few Good Men, there is part of it which applies to the current bin Laden exercise as recognising that there is a gulf between what we'd like and what is necessary.

(Col. Jessup): Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have more responsibility here than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. I know deep down in places you dont talk about at parties, you don't want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it."

I doubt that any of the military people who went over the walls into bin Laden's compound with guns thought much about how the rest of us rely upon them to be the guards on the walls between us and the likes of bin Laden, but I'd be a ****ing sight happier if someone in the media and on talkback radio stopped whining about extra-judicial killing of Osama and recognised that these people went into hostile territory and pulled off a great piece of work which preserves the liberty of the whingers to complain about how terrible the raid was which got rid of a bastard who was determined to get rid of all the liberties which would allow the whingers to express their views.

Iron Yeoman
05-04-2011, 11:10 AM
Wot 'e said.

skorzeny57
05-04-2011, 11:15 AM
An old friend of mine, a Native American from South Dakota, as usual, told me many times "The problem with you Whites is that you have to understand and to go deeply into everything. Isn't an essential thing to comprehend and motivate all the things, expecially the ones that come from human mind."
I don't think it may be really important to settle if the question is "revenge or justice". For many anti-Americans-radical- progressive- comunists, here in Italy, the killing of OBL has been nothing less than a brutal homicide, perpetrated by the USA Imperialistic Government. For many others, included (probably) you and me, it has been an act of legitimate justice.
I appreciated the quotation of the Colonel Jessup from the 1992 movie "A few good men"... Since i first watched that movie, his speech was the thing that really impressed me, for its harsh analysis of the crude facts of life of those men...(the same that went over the wall into the Bin Laden's compound two days ago). It doesn't matter how the things may go, i'll always be on their side.

skorzeny57
05-04-2011, 11:22 AM
Wot 'e said.

Hi Iron Yeoman,
please forgive this poor illiterate Italian... What do you mean with Wot'e said? Thanx in advance for your availability and your time... ;)

leccy
05-04-2011, 02:35 PM
At the end of the day OBL had to be killed and not arrested.

Dead he is a martyr no matter how it came about, cowering or fighting. The news and rumour mills will be used to fuel propoganda for supporters, followers, etc.

Alive he would still be a martyr but could also have any westerner open to kidnapping and execution unless he is released.

Iron Yeoman
05-04-2011, 04:45 PM
Hi Iron Yeoman,
please forgive this poor illiterate Italian... What do you mean with Wot'e said? Thanx in advance for your availability and your time... ;)

Wot 'e said is a gutter colloquialism for agreeing with what somebody else has said, as in I agree with what he said.

Hope that helps.

Rising Sun*
05-05-2011, 08:02 AM
Alive he would still be a martyr but could also have any westerner open to kidnapping and execution unless he is released.

Exactly.

He'll fade from memory and real, as distinct from symbolic, political signficance a lot quicker at the bottom of the ocean than he would have if kept in a prison for the rest of his worthless life.

Rising Sun*
05-05-2011, 08:05 AM
Maybe there are some surprises as a result of his death.


Islamic world quiet as bin Laden age closes

(AP) – 3 hours ago (5 May 2011)

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (AP) — In life, Osama bin Laden was burned into the Muslim consciousness in countless ways: the lion of holy warriors, the untouchable nemesis of the West, the evil zealot who soiled their faith with blood and intolerance.

In death, however, the voices across the Islamic world are now relatively muted in sharp counterpoint to the rage and shame — or hero-worship — that he long inspired. .

For some, the account of bin Laden's death during a U.S. raid early Monday on his Pakistan compound is still too much to accept. One post on a militant website asks: "Has the sheik really died?"

But a more complex explanation for the relative quiet on the Muslim streets lies, in fact, on those same streets.

The pro-democracy uprisings across the Arab world suggest to many that al-Qaida's clenched-fist ideology has little place for a new generation seeking Western-style political reforms and freedoms — even though al-Qaida offshoots still hold ground in places such as Yemen and Pakistan.

"Bin Laden died in Egypt before he was killed in Pakistan," said Abdulkhaleq Abdullah, a professor of political science at Emirates University. "The young people who successfully challenged the status quo with peaceful means proved change the bin Laden way — the violent way, the jihad way — did not come."

Lebanon's caretaker Prime Minister Saad Hariri — who took office after his father Rafik Hariri was killed in a 2005 truck bombing in Beirut — said bin Laden's death serves as something of a moment of silence for those killed by al-Qaida or groups that borrowed their violence creed.

"Any Arab or Muslim who believes that terrorism is destructive and harmful to Arabism and Islam, cannot but receive the news of the fate of Osama bin Laden with feelings of sympathy toward the family of thousands of victims who died in different areas of the world because of him or by his orders," said a statement by Saad Hariri.

Even in Iraq, there have been few public outpourings of happiness or grief in a country that has suffered years of relentless bombings and attacks by al-Qaida-linked groups targeting American forces or supporters of the U.S.-backed government.

A Baghdad-based political analyst, Hadi Jalo, said it appears to reflect a shift in Sunni insurgent groups that once called for a medieval-style Islamic caliphate in Iraq. They now are increasingly plotting ways to influence Iraq's political world with U.S. troops scheduled to leave by the end of the year.

"Iraq today is different from Iraq in 2004, 2005 and 2006," Jalo said. "If the death news came at that period, we would see mourning ceremonies in different areas where al-Qaida insurgents were active."

In neighboring Iran — which backed the Shiite militant foes of Iraq's al-Qaida militants — bin Laden's death brought little public reaction, but was used by the Islamic rulers to jab at Washington. A commentary Wednesday by Iran's semiofficial Fars News Agency mocked the epic costs of the near decade-long hunt for America's most-wanted figure and its wars in the region.

"American lives are being lost. Innocent civilians are being killed. Several of the conflicts appear to be primed to go on for a long time," said the agency, which is closely aligned with Iran's powerful Revolutionary Guard.

The lack of major public outpourings or declarations from al-Qaida also add another layer of guesswork about its future. Most assume that bin Laden's top aide, Egyptian-born Ayman al-Zawahri, is the apparent al-Qaida heir. There have been only isolated calls for quick revenge against the United States from protesters or on jihadist websites.

Just hours after bin Laden's death was announced, however, CIA director Leon Panetta warned that "terrorists almost certainly will attempt to avenge" the killing of the mastermind behind the Sept. 11 attacks.

"Bin Laden is dead," Panetta wrote in a memo to CIA staff. "Al-Qaida is not."

In Pakistan's southern city of Karachi on Wednesday, about 1,000 mourners joined prayers for bin Laden arranged by a militant-linked charity. But there have been few other protests in the country that bin Laden may have used as his fugitive base for years.

In bin Laden's pre-9/11 stronghold, Afghanistan, many people still refused to believe that he was dead despite Washington's assertions of positive DNA tests. On Wednesday, President Obama said the U.S. will not release the photo of bin Laden's body that was taken after he was killed.

"I don't think he's dead," said Salam Jan Rishtania, a 26-year-old student in Kandahar. "I don't trust the Americans because they are playing games over here. This may be part of their game."

Still, there were some acts of homage in other parts of the Muslim world.

About 25 people in the Gaza Strip held pictures and posters of bin Laden on Tuesday. On the podcast channel of the pan-Arab broadcaster Al-Jazeera, some messages praised bin Laden among many others denouncing him.

"You are the sheik of the mujahedeen (holy warriors). God may grant you heaven," said one post. Another read: "You are in heaven, Sheik Osama."

Ismail Haniyeh, the prime minister of Hamas-controlled Gaza, portrayed bin Laden as the victim of a state-sponsored "terrorist act."

"We disagree with the vision of holy warrior Osama bin Laden, but we condemn this terrorist act," Haniyeh told The Associated Press on Wednesday. "What the U.S. did is not a heroic action, but a targeted killing. ... To pursue and kill him in Pakistan, which is Muslim land, means for us a further intervention in the land of Islam."

But in Somalia, where a hard-line Islamist group holds sway over large parts of the country, demonstrators marched defiantly through government-held parts of the capital, Mogadishu, and burned a flag they said represented al-Qaida.

"Terror, terror go away," they chanted. "Little kids want to play."

Associated Press writers Barbara Surk in Dubai; Mirwais Khan in Kandahar, Afghanistan; Chris Brummitt in Islamabad; Elizabeth Kennedy in Beirut; Ibrahim Barzak in Gaza City; Abdi Guled in Mogadishu, and Maamoun Youssef in Cairo contributed to this report.

Copyright © 2011 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5glIKvV9iNTu2jN9frMzPVP7DAyQQ?docId=996338b91 45847af9c55b32dd277b53a

skorzeny57
05-05-2011, 11:51 AM
Maybe there are some surprises as a result of his death.

I would like to ask to Ismail Haniyeh, prime minister of Hamas- controlled Gaza, which meaning he ascribes to the "terrorist act" concept. If the killing of OBL is considered by him the over-mentioned "terrorist act", what about the Twin Towers attack, the two hundreds people killed in 2002 Bali massacre and many others killed elsewhere, by this "holy warrior"? What is the definition he gives to those "acts"? Perhaps he's probably trying to state that lifes have different weight? May the Osama Bin Laden's life be more important than a life of a poor worker, whose body is still mixed with the Towers debris?
And what about the raving "... a further intervention in the land of Islam"? Which kind of meaning he's trying to ascribe to the "Muslim land"? A place where should exists a sort of acquired immunity, against any kind of crime?
I think it's gonna be difficult, if not impossible, to reach something important, in order to heal the great disagreements with the Muslim World, if we have to deal with this kind of Political Leaders...
Rising Sun*, thanx for your interesting post...

Rising Sun*
05-07-2011, 08:26 AM
Far too many people in the commentariat seem to have forgotten that Osama was a self-declared warrior engaged in a self-declared war against America and every other nation and everybody else who didn't share his view of the supremacy of Islam and its Allah-given authority to wage war on Osama's, Allah's and Islam's enemies.

This seems a fair 'plain English' summary of the law dealing with the bin man as a combatant, unlike the demands from many that he should have been captured and brought to trial like some civilian criminal.


Was killing Osama bin Laden legal?

5-5-2011
By Gabor Rona
International Legal Advisor

He was an evil mass-murderer. Does it matter how it went down? Absolutely.

It matters to one of the fundamental humanitarian principles of the laws of armed conflict: if they are “hors de combat,” or “outside the fight,” then targeting even military objectives is a war crime.

So first, was bin Laden a military objective? Assuming one accepts the idea that the United States is at war with al Qaeda, yes. In war, persons who directly participate in hostilities or who perform a continuous combat function in an armed group are targetable, and bin Laden certainly was the latter, if not the former.

But what about “hors de combat?” Here’s what Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions says:

“A person is ‘hors de combat’ if:
(a) he is in the power of an adverse Party;
(b) he clearly expresses an intention to surrender; or
(c) he has been rendered unconscious or is otherwise incapacitated by wounds or sickness, and therefore is incapable of defending himself;
provided that in any of these cases he abstains from any hostile act and does not attempt to escape.”

The first reports had it that bin Laden was armed and put up resistance by using a woman as a human shield. Subsequent reports said wrong, not armed, no human shield.

Does that render him “hors de combat?” No. It does not amount to either (a) or (b) or (c), above.

Some law of war theorists claim that a person who poses no evident threat is also “hors de combat.” (To keep my students interested, I call it the naked soldier hypothetical). But unless and until that idea finds its way into the Geneva Conventions or into the practice of a substantial portion of the world’s militaries acting out of a sense of legal obligation, it will not be the law.

What about the fact that he was an evil terrorist with the blood of thousands on his hands? If he was “hors de combat” that would be a matter for judge and jury to sort out, not Navy Seals. And that’s exactly as it should be because killing in war is not for the purpose of implementing justice. It’s for the purpose of neutralizing the enemy. I won’t argue with President Obama’s conclusion that “justice was done,” but I do think that term is more appropriate for what comes from a (legitimate) court of law than the end of a gun.

But what if you reject the “war against al Qaeda” paradigm? In that event, human rights law, rather than the laws of war would be your guide. And human rights law prohibits arbitrary deprivation of the right to life. While the legality of lethal force is a closer question outside of armed conflict than in it, the totality of circumstances make it difficult to claim that the killing was arbitrary, even if bin Laden was not actively resisting or fleeing.

All in all, probably a legal kill assuming the official version is true.

Update: The Obama Administration articulated the right standard and analysis to this case when White House Spokesman Jay Carney said, ”The team had the authority to kill Osama bin Laden unless he offered to surrender; in which case the team was required to accept his surrender if the team could do so safely.” Carney also stated that ”(t)he operation was planned so that the team was prepared and had the means to take bin Laden into custody.” My bold http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/

The author isn't exactly a lightweight in the area, despite working for a human rights organisation which one might expect to lean to a softer interpretation adverse to America's action in ridding the world of the bin man.


Gabor Rona
International Legal Director
Joined Human Rights First in 2005

As the International Legal Director of Human Rights First, Gabor Rona advises Human Rights First programs on questions of international law and coordinates international human rights litigation. He also represents Human Rights First with governments, intergovernmental and non-governmental organizations, the media and the public on matters of international human rights and international humanitarian law (the law of armed conflict).

Before coming to Human Rights First, Gabor was a Legal Advisor in the Legal Division of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) in Geneva. At the ICRC he focused on the application of international humanitarian and human rights law in the context of counter-terrorism policies and practices. He represented the ICRC in intergovernmental, nongovernmental, academic and public forums and his articles on the topic have appeared in the Financial Times, the Fletcher Forum on World Affairs and the Chicago Journal of International Law, among other publications. In addition, he represented the ICRC in connection with the establishment of international and other criminal tribunals, including the International Criminal Court. He has also taught International Humanitarian Law and International Criminal Law in several academic settings, including the International Institute of Human Rights in Strasbourg, France and the University Centre for International Humanitarian Law in Geneva, Switzerland.
http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/about-us/staff/gabor-rona/

A similar view from an Australian academic, who is in the minority of the idealistic chattering classes who dominate the press here on this issue but his opinion reflects the opinion of the majority of average people who use common sense instead of abstract legal and philosophical ideals to form their views.


The New Yorker raised how risky it was to suddenly allow political killings: “It is, to put it mildly, an easy power to abuse. bin Laden didn’t get a trial and didn’t deserve one. But the number of people for whom that is true is small. At least it should be.”

But Donald Rothwell, professor of international law at the ANU College of Law, regards bin Laden as a combatant to the US and says therefore his death was a lawful killing, not an assassination. He acknowledges others may differ on calling bin Laden a combatant.

“As a combatant he is therefore a lawful target and can be killed because he enjoys no immunity as a combatant,” explained Rothwell. “He has combatant status as he is the head of al-Qaeda, an organisation involved in armed conflict with the US, not only because of the events of 9/11 but because it continues to be at conflict with the United States.”

Rothwell also is not a lightweight in the area.


Donald Rothwell is Professor of International Law at the ANU College of Law and has a wide range of interests in international law ranging from the law of the sea, to the use of force, Antarctica and the Polar Regions, and military operations law. He was formerly a legal officer in the Royal Australian Navy Reserves and also teaches Military Operations Law to Australian Defence Force Lawyers in the postgraduate Military Law program offered by the ANU. He is currently Deputy Director of the Australian Centre for Military Law and Justice at the ANU College of Law.
http://law.anu.edu.au/UnitUploads/LAWS8268-1773-fulloutline.pdf

See also http://law.anu.edu.au/scripts/staffdetails.asp?StaffID=393


If America and its friends are really such terrible people that their actions in and support for killing the bin man render them inhumane in the idealistic eyes of the chattering classes, where does that put the moral scale of the chattering classes for their deafening silence about (a) sundry jihadists beheading innocents to secure the release of the bin man's combatants around the planet and (b) events such as Madrid, Bali and London bombings?

Some people need to grasp the difference between something on the scale of 9/11, which is on the Pearl Harbor level, as a carefully planned and executed act of war against America, and its friends, and some crazy who massacres a family next door for no good reason and who as part of our processes for social cohesion should be dealt with according to the law that, ulike the bin man, both the victims and offender lived under and to which they were all subject, unlike some **** in Afghanistan and later Pakistan thinking he was safe from the just wrath of the nation he attacked as an act of war.

Rising Sun*
05-07-2011, 08:52 AM
I would like to ask to Ismail Haniyeh, prime minister of Hamas- controlled Gaza, which meaning he ascribes to the "terrorist act" concept. If the killing of OBL is considered by him the over-mentioned "terrorist act", what about the Twin Towers attack, the two hundreds people killed in 2002 Bali massacre and many others killed elsewhere, by this "holy warrior"? What is the definition he gives to those "acts"?

They're done by his mob, so they're okay.

We all suffer from that when we're backing our own team.

But none of the nations targeted by the likes of the bin man ever engaged in anything as monstrous as 9/11 as an unprovoked attack on anyone and, more confusingly, without making any demands or revealing any purpose.

9/11 was just a particular brand of Islamic rage directed at America, and at America as a representative of all that the likes of the bin man abhor because they cannot abide a place where their medieval views of a male dominated religious society are not observed. Which is all the more reason to wipe them out before they wipe us out because, once we free ourselves of modern politically correct speech, that is what it comes down to.

skorzeny57
05-07-2011, 09:24 AM
9/11 was just a particular brand of Islamic rage directed at America, and at America as a representative of all that the likes of the bin man abhor because they cannot abide a place where their medieval views of a male dominated religious society are not observed. Which is all the more reason to wipe them out before they wipe us out because, once we free ourselves of modern politically correct speech, that is what it comes down to.

Agree 1.000% or, like Iron Yeoman and Tankgeezer taught me, wot 'e said!!!

Rising Sun*
05-07-2011, 10:09 AM
Agree 1.000% or, like Iron Yeoman and Tankgeezer taught me, wot 'e said!!!

The sad and infinitely depressing thing is that the last thing I, and most people in the West and probably most people in the Islamic world, want is a war for religious (particularly as I'm irregligious, which makes me a target for countless religious police from various faiths :D) reasons which in the end won't make anybody any better off or happier. Exactly the opposite result is guaranteed.

But the bin man managed to polarise a lot of people on both sides, but mostly at the margins where the morons, who control a lot of votes or support in all nations, on both sides reside.

What disturbs me most about all of this is that where once I took little or no notice of hijabs etc, apart from having contempt for the strutting Muslim men wearing shorts, T shirts and sandals while their women followed them in the full gear in searingly hot weather, is that now I and almost all of the people I know now tend to have contempt for, or at the very least are not sympathetic to, all displays of Islam as it is demonstrated publicly here.

Which is sad because some Muslims here are trying, and trying very commendably in the face of the sort of my attitude I have just outlined, to open prayer rooms and mosques to the rest of us and to show that Islam is not a threat.

Which would all be fine, except for all the jihadis blowing themselves and others up etc all around the plant.

It would be nice if we could build a sieve which separates the dangerous Muslims from the rest with whom we could live peacefully.

But I think it's their job to design and use that sieve because if they can't sort out the dangers in their own community I fail to see how those of us outside that community are able to do it, or why we should be responsible for the consequences of failing to weed out their violent elements.

Nickdfresh
05-08-2011, 02:20 PM
I think a local news columnist sums it up here:

Bin Laden merited no mercy

By Donn Esmonde

Buffalo News Columnist (http://www.buffalonews.com/city/columns/donn-esmonde/article416950.ece)

Updated: May 8, 2011, 7:27 AM

To put it bluntly, so what? The news that bin Laden was unarmed — and not, as originally reported, locked and loaded — when he met his maker may give some people pause. Should not the terrorist mastermind have gotten a chance to surrender?

Uh, no. Bin Laden reportedly had an AK-47 and smaller guns in his death room. There were concerns he might have worn a “suicide vest.” It helps to justify bin Laden’s killing, for those who need justification. Frankly, I do not care if bin Laden was cowering under the bed when the Navy SEAL put a bullet in his head. I think bin Laden waived his right to due process a long time ago.

This is not, to me, something to get a national guilty conscience over. Let’s not lose sight of who bin Laden was, and what he did. The passage of nearly 10 years should not cloud the reality of the mass murder that he masterminded on 9/11.

As far as I am concerned, any mandate of “innocent until proven guilty” for bin Laden went out the windows of the crumbling World Trade Center towers. On that day, he stamped his death certificate.

I was on the streets of lower Manhattan in the days after the Twin Towers fell. I can assure you, no one I spoke with — cop, firefighter, first responder, resident, loved one of victim — entertained any thoughts of a trial-by-jury for bin Laden.

The unanimous sentiment: Catch him and kill him.

Bin Laden was the last person on the planet who could complain about not getting a day in court or a show of mercy. As for the morality of shooting an unarmed man, U. S. Attorney General Eric Holder said that — as head of al-Qaida — bin Laden was “an enemy commander” and a justifiable target under International Law.

Aside from legalities, his death last Sunday in a U.S. commando raid fulfilled revenge fantasies sparked by 9/11. To have bin Laden expire at the hands of Navy SEALs, instead of from natural causes or in an impersonal airstrike, was the Hollywood ending most folks had given up hope for. The bullet that slammed into his skull was no less than a message from America, however long it took to deliver.

Make no mistake, bin Laden got the ending he deserved. As he heard the attack helicopters land, and the SEALs blast through the walls of the compound and pound up the stairs, bin Laden at least had a chance to understand what was happening, and why. Which is more consideration than he gave to nearly 3,000 innocent victims on 9/11.

If this was indeed a “kill or capture” mission, I suspect that whoever gave the order was winking while uttering the word “capture.” There was no logic in taking bin Laden alive. Being confined for months, then given the circus of a trial, would merely inflate his stature as a symbol of resistance among true believers and the persuadable. How would that help us?

I understand that the rule of law is what separates America from uncivilized countries. But this is a man who — in addition to the civilian slaughter of 9/11 — masterminded the 1998 killing of 224 people in truck bombings outside of U. S. embassies in Africa, and the deaths of 17 U. S. sailors in the USS Cole attack. The usual rules do not apply, because bin Laden burned the rule book.

Did Hitler deserve his day in court? Was Pol Pot denied a fair hearing? Should Idi Amin have been shown mercy? I think not.

When it comes to mass murderers, there are no shades of gray. Bin Laden declared holy war on the United States 15 years ago. Since then, he has claimed lives, changed lives and — from airport security, to anxiety levels, to American military ventures — changed our way of life.

Sunday night, American got its payback. In bin Laden’s case, it was fair play.

desmonde@buffnews.com

Rising Sun*
05-09-2011, 08:25 AM
Sounds spot on to me.

muscogeemike
05-09-2011, 08:26 PM
I donít have a problem with killing OBL and recognize the incredible effort, spanning several years, and the professionalism of operation.
I did, however, have some uneasy feelings about the crowds of young people cheering his death. I wonder how many of them ever considered actually serving in the military?

Rising Sun*
05-09-2011, 08:48 PM
I donít have a problem with killing OBL and recognize the incredible effort, spanning several years, and the professionalism of operation.

I did, however, have some uneasy feelings about the crowds of young people cheering his death.

Same here.

I think that although it's a legitimate sentiment to welcome his death, it's a bit unseemly to do it as a public demonstration.

Then again, a lot of people in the Muslim world engaged in much more unseemly, and in my view utterly repugnant, public demonstrations to celebrate the destruction of the twin towers, so they're not in any position to criticise the public reaction of some Americans to Obama's death.

Iron Yeoman
05-10-2011, 02:53 AM
Same here.

I think that although it's a legitimate sentiment to welcome his death, it's a bit unseemly to do it as a public demonstration.

Then again, a lot of people in the Muslim world engaged in much more unseemly, and in my view utterly repugnant, public demonstrations to celebrate the destruction of the twin towers, so they're not in any position to criticise the public reaction of some Americans to Obama's death.

I heartily agree. Islamic fundamentalists do have a habit of burning down/attacking embassies of offending nations whenever they do something disagreeable. Who remembers the ridiculous furore that swept Sudan when a British teacher let her class call their teddy 'Mohammed' (peace be upon him). And lets us not forget the incredible backlash over that Danish cartoon. I think the Americans are qute deserving of their street celebrations over the death of OBL.

Rising Sun*
05-10-2011, 09:56 AM
I heartily agree. Islamic fundamentalists do have a habit of burning down/attacking embassies of offending nations whenever they do something disagreeable. Who remembers the ridiculous furore that swept Sudan when a British teacher let her class call their teddy 'Mohammed' (peace be upon him). And lets us not forget the incredible backlash over that Danish cartoon. I think the Americans are qute deserving of their street celebrations over the death of OBL.

We're singing from the same hymn book, except nowadays I'd question that it's only Islamic fundamentalists who are a problem.

The behaviour of sundry Muslims here, notably second and third generation Lebanese who generally aren't fundamentalist Muslims (unless you regard social security fraud, car rebirthing, drug dealing, protection rackets, steriod fuelled violence, etc etc as Islamic fundamentalism), in celebrating the destruction of the twin towers at the time suggests that the problem of the mentality which supports such things isn't limited to fundamentalists.

Conversely, there are many Muslims who are appalled by the behaviour of bin Laden and the local supporters, but they don't seem to have much influence on the more strident elements in their community.

Iron Yeoman
05-10-2011, 10:10 AM
There's a comedian in the UK of Iranian extraction called Omid Djallili. He makes the point that the media are fairly guilty of only showing the nutters on TV because it makes better viewing as a result the more moderate side rarely get a look in and the perception is created that most muslims are nutters. It's a bit like interviewing the KKK or BNP everytime something happens in the west. Interestingly enough the Muslim council of Great Britain were fairly welcoming of Bin Laden's demise, they blame him and his ilk for tarring them with the same brush and as a result becoming more of a target for loonies like the English Defence League (EDL).

Rising Sun*
05-10-2011, 10:22 AM
He makes the point that the media are fairly guilty of only showing the nutters on TV because it makes better viewing as a result the more moderate side rarely get a look in and the perception is created that most muslims are nutters.

A fair point. Here's the latest example from the Antipodes, with a self-styled Islamic leader who appears to be rather fond of mascara and other make up not normally worn by men (or not worn by normal men) of any religion and who appears to have a following of himself.
http://aca.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8246800

However, the people celebrating 9/11 here to whom I was referring in my last post never got into the public domain on television or anything else. They were involved in small local demonstrations, such as in state secondary schools with significant Muslim enrolments. I base my comments on the experiences of people I know, such as the teacher in a state secondary school who challenged the Lebanese thugs celebrating 9/11 and found herself on the wrong end of a discrimination complaint by these morons, which was taken seriously by her principal and the ****wits running our state education bureaucracy.

Nickdfresh
05-10-2011, 11:49 AM
Some good articles here from Time Magazine I read while in the hospital waiting room:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2069249,00.html

http://www.time.com/time/video/player/0,32068,932476277001_2069645,00.html

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/0,28757,2068895,00.html

Rising Sun*
05-11-2011, 07:42 AM
American helos fly into Pakistan; wait while a long firefight occurs; one flies out of Pakistan; and neither is detected or intercepted by Pakistan. Pick one of the following as the most likely.

1. Pakistan, despite being a nuclear power, can't identify intruders into its airspace nor react in time to respond to one of them escaping after a noisy firefight.

2. American helos are so sophisticated that, despite a 50% failure rate on this raid so far as the downed helo is concerned, Pakistan couldn't detect or intercept them on the way in or out.

3. Pakistan let it happen.

Iron Yeoman
05-11-2011, 07:46 AM
Or
3a. Pakistan were told it was happening and were made very aware of the international political fallout if they stopped the US going in after Bin Laden.

Rising Sun*
05-11-2011, 08:05 AM
Or
3a. Pakistan were told it was happening and were made very aware of the international political fallout if they stopped the US going in after Bin Laden.

Or

3b. It suited Pakistan to have America deal with the bin man so that the Pakistani government got rid of a figurehead which caused local problems for it from its Taliban etc elements.

Both 3a and 3b bring us back to 3 as the ultimate action, or inaction, by Pakistan.

Nickdfresh
05-11-2011, 10:43 AM
Mainly 1 & 2, with some of the subsets of 3. I believe Pakistan's security forces are beset by heavily factionalism hindering a coherent response to anything, including India...

Iron Yeoman
05-11-2011, 10:44 AM
Or

3b. It suited Pakistan to have America deal with the bin man so that the Pakistani government got rid of a figurehead which caused local problems for it from its Taliban etc elements.

Both 3a and 3b bring us back to 3 as the ultimate action, or inaction, by Pakistan.

Good point, well made. 3 would be the choice i'd go with.

skorzeny57
05-11-2011, 11:28 AM
I don't think that the Pakistan were told abuot the raid, for the simply reason that every time it happened in the past nine years, Bin Laden has cleared off... I don't think it may be a coincidence that, the first time the US did all by themselves, they has caught him...

rudeerude
05-11-2011, 03:05 PM
2. American helos are so sophisticated that, despite a 50% failure rate on this raid so far as the downed helo is concerned, Pakistan couldn't detect or intercept them on the way in or out.



The US did use some new helo's that were of stealth technology and quieter.The US asked for the tail section back but Pakistan refuses.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/osama-bin-laden-raid-pakistan-hints-china-peak/story?id=13570573