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Iron Yeoman
04-24-2011, 05:52 AM
Gents, just wanted to wish you all a happy Easter whether you're God squad or not, try not to over indulge on those Easter eggs, and for all of you who sprechen Deutsch Ein frohes und sonniges Osterfest!

Regards,

IY

skorzeny57
04-24-2011, 08:23 AM
Gents, just wanted to wish you all a happy Easter whether you're God squad or not, try not to over indulge on those Easter eggs, and for all of you who sprechen Deutsch Ein frohes und sonniges Osterfest!

Regards,

IY

Iron Yeoman, i heartily reciprocate your kind wishes... :) You may add to your international dictionary the same wishes in Italian : Buona Pasqua a tutti voi!!
(Happy Easter to all of you!!) ;) :)

S57

Rising Sun*
04-24-2011, 09:54 AM
Down here, due to the shifting of Easter dates, we have ANZAC Day, our national day for commemoration of our people who served in wars, falling tomorrow on Easter Monday.

Which unites two great traditions of giving one's life as a saviour, albeit without any indication that doing so will stop humans being vile to other humans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9A4ARtbmFk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gmgwx77osw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuCnoplE-7E&feature=related

Okay, so there's a degree of maudlin sentiment in some of those videos, but the fact remains that people who condemn soldiers for fighting wars which are determined by politicians rather than soldiers invariably get really fond of soldiers when soldiers are all that stand between them and the enemy.

What does this have to do with Easter? Probably nothing, except that it was a Roman soldier who thrust a spear into Christ's chest on the cross to see if he was still alive. Which pretty much symbolises the unfortunate relationship between soldiers and their actions under the command of the greater powers which control military forces for all sorts of purposes beyond the knowledge or interest of the poor bastards who through the centuries have put their lives on the line for those who control them.

32Bravo
04-24-2011, 10:31 AM
Pax Vobiscum

Rising Sun*
04-24-2011, 11:02 AM
Pax Vobiscum

The version I grew up with was 'dominus vobiscum'.

The response is the same.

'et cum spirito tuo'

And may the spirit be with you all.

32Bravo
04-24-2011, 01:15 PM
I thought I had already responed to this ???

Anyway, as did I.

However, I was offering the Roman greeting (as opposed to the Catholic greeting) i.e. 'Pax Roma', arguably less successful than 'Pax Britania' - just kidding!

The resonse 'et cum spirito tutuo' I learned by rote and it was many years before I challenged the habit and gave thought to the meaning. 'The Lord is with you!'


You might like this:

"The answer "And also with you." is bad not becuase of the 1st two words, but because it is not a sentence. To make a sentence out of it requires additions and a deletion: "And May it also be with you." But that's even FURTHER from the latin...

To the people: Dominus vobiscum ... (The Lord be with you)
then, to the celebrant: ... et cum spirtu tua. (and with spirit yours).
Again, a third party type dialog. "

Pax Vobiscum - Peace be with you!

skorzeny57
04-24-2011, 01:26 PM
The version I grew up with was 'dominus vobiscum'.
The response is the same.
'et cum spirito tuo'

Amen

I'm sorry if i seem disrespectful, but i couldn't resist... :( :( :(

32Bravo
04-24-2011, 01:35 PM
No offence taken. Some of us non-Americans are less fanatical about our religion than others. Religion is, probably, more of a personal matter with us than it is with the Bible punchers, and what others might think is up to them - So be it!

BWA - kill one and a thousand obliterate you!

Nickdfresh
04-24-2011, 02:43 PM
32Bravo, you infidel!


You need to get back to your religious roots and celebrate Ēastre by sacrificing something or someone to our Goddess of renewal and fertility! :evil:

skorzeny57
04-24-2011, 03:00 PM
No offence taken. Some of us non-Americans are less fanatical about our religion than others. Religion is, probably, more of a personal matter with us than it is with the Bible punchers, and what others might think is up to them - So be it!

BWA - kill one and a thousand obliterate you!

I grew up in a Country where the presence of the Religious Authority has always been more than oppressive and intrusive... I was born in 1957 and since i was a kid, i remember how the Vatican and the Pope methodically interfered and influenced the Political life of Italy, as well as the educational system... Just to give you an idea, consider that from post-war to the 80's, the first Italian Political Party (the one that ruled the Country for more than forty years) was the Democrazia Cristiana (Christian Democracy) and its symbol was a Shield with a Cross... Symbol that resulted in contradiction with the stretches of power and the corruption that characterised those years... The Religious Education has been compulsory until some years ago, to the point that Italy was probably one of the last European Country to benefit of important laws like the Right of Divorce or the Termination of Pregnancy... The main result of this kind of behaviour, was the loss of credibility, just because many people (like myself) realized that the same Religious Authorities that celebrates Christian Rites, were the same that tryed, day after day, to f*** you...
My poor english doesn't allow me to explain in details many other reasons, but can probably show the kind of attitude, i have towards the Clerical World... I have great respect for whoever profess his Faith, 'cause i think, like you do, that Religion is a personal matter and an important part of the inner life of every human being' but i don't want to be part of any crime or injustice committed in the name of the Cross... That's it...

Can you explain me what do you mean with the acronym BWA? Isn't an ironic question. I don'y really know what it means and when i don't understand, i ask... I'm sorry, but i'm just an old country boy...

32Bravo
04-24-2011, 04:53 PM
BWA = British West-Indian Airways. Bit of a slip, meant to say BTW = By The Way. :)

The history of the world is full of stories of relious oppression. It has nothing to do with God, it's just about men and power. No revelation there. For me, Catholicism fell apart with Vatican II.

Please, spare me the ignorant, country boy act - you're obviously intelligent and articulate your opinions well.

32Bravo
04-24-2011, 05:04 PM
I visited Glastonbury and Glastonbury Tor, last week. Full of fake Druids selling fake Ghia rubbish to the pagans. It was quite refreshing to visit the city of Wells after that and experience the quiet dignity of its cathedral.

There is much ignorance regarding the monastries which were destroyed by Henry VIII, and the lack of knowledge regarding the good work they did for their communities. As we witness in the news everyday, the only good news is bad news. The mundane good is ignored.

The Chrisitans referred to non-Christians as infidels, on the other hand infidels refer to Christians as infidels. Who are the infidels? :)

I would suppose that the best offering to the Goddess of renewal and fertility would be semen? :)

Iron Yeoman
04-24-2011, 05:30 PM
Gosh chaps, all I wanted to do was wish you all a good easter and it seems to have sparked a theolgical debate!! :shock:

skorzeny57
04-24-2011, 05:35 PM
Please, spare me the ignorant, country boy act - you're obviously intelligent and articulate your opinions well.

IT's quite obvious that we have different sense of humour... I don't think that a country boy can't be, at the same time, intelligent and able to articulate his own opinions. When i say "country boy", i mean someone frank and sincere with a simple mind, probably a little bit naive, the way i think i am. ;)
Thanx for your explanation, about BWA. :)
I don't agree with your previous "correction" about the chinese proverb that i use like sign. BWA - we all have different minds and different opinions...
Best regards.

skorzeny57
04-24-2011, 05:41 PM
Gosh chaps, all I wanted to do was wish you all a good easter and it seems to have sparked a theolgical debate!! :shock:

Good things sometimes comes from simplicity and naturalness... Your wishes've been welcome anyway!!! :)

32Bravo
04-25-2011, 03:18 AM
Maybe, but can you be certain?

32Bravo
04-25-2011, 03:19 AM
Gosh chaps, all I wanted to do was wish you all a good easter ... :shock:

and you did it so well.

Rising Sun*
04-25-2011, 06:07 AM
Gosh chaps, all I wanted to do was wish you all a good easter and it seems to have sparked a theolgical debate!! :shock:

You think that's bad?

Wait till you see what happens when you wish us Merry Christmas / Xmas. ;) :D

Rising Sun*
04-25-2011, 06:30 AM
Pax Vobiscum - Peace be with you!

And with you.

I preferred the Tridentine Mass for a bit of theatre. The English version is bad enough on its own, in much the same way that performing Shakespeare in Nazi uniforms etc is seriously off, but it really went downhill when (like Shakespeare plays performed with audience participation) they introduced singing nuns and bearded priests with guitars connecting with the people (who used to be called the laity).

In my day as an altar boy in the late 1950s, if I recall correctly, nobody but the priest could touch the host because only consecrated hands could touch it. If the host was dropped, the priest had to pick it up. Now the priest puts it in the recipient's hands. And, worse, they've gone all Protestant with drinking wine. I'm buggered if I'd put my lips around a chalice that the tubercular old slag next to me has just drunk from.

Anyway, it's all academic because I'm not part of the club, but from time to time I'm forced to attend weddings, funerals, confirmations etc which make me realise that no religion is going to grab me unless it involves high theatre. Which pretty much rules out Islam, because I don't want to be looking at the arse of the bloke in front of me while I'm making my devotions. The Aztecs knew how to have a really good show, but I think their ceremonies might be against the law nowadays. Whirling Dervishes know how to have all around good time and getting dizzy isn't against the law, so I might give them a shot. ;) :D

32Bravo
04-25-2011, 07:22 AM
I preferred the Tridentine Mass for a bit of theatre.

As did I.



In my day as an altar boy in the late 1950s, if I recall correctly, nobody but the priest could touch the host because only consecrated hands could touch it. If the host was dropped, the priest had to pick it up. Now the priest puts it in the recipient's hands. And, worse, they've gone all Protestant with drinking wine. I'm buggered if I'd put my lips around a chalice that the tubercular old slag next to me has just drunk from.

That is precisely why I have never received it.


which make me realise that no religion is going to grab me unless it involves high theatre.

This is a very interesting point.

There appears to be a very strong requirement for things spiritual to contain ritual to give them meaning.

skorzeny57
04-25-2011, 07:25 AM
Maybe, but can you be certain?

Life taught me that you can't be certain about anything, even about what's in my mind...

32Bravo
04-25-2011, 07:36 AM
Life taught me that you can't be certain about anything, even about what's in my mind...

The pearls of wisdom which life bestows - on some!

Rising Sun*
04-25-2011, 07:52 AM
There appears to be a very strong requirement for things spiritual to contain ritual to give them meaning.

Maybe it's the other way around.

Witness the impact of the Nazi theatre of the Nuremberg Rallies and sundry other spectacular parades etc as having the impact to draw in adherents and impress even unbelievers.

I was conscious in my comments on the Tridentine Mass that it revealed a preference for theatre over faith, but it's the rituals which sometimes matter more to humans than the belief the rituals represent.

32Bravo
04-25-2011, 08:56 AM
Maybe it's the other way around.

Witness the impact of the Nazi theatre of the Nuremberg Rallies and sundry other spectacular parades etc as having the impact to draw in adherents and impress even unbelievers.

I was conscious in my comments on the Tridentine Mass that it revealed a preference for theatre over faith, but it's the rituals which sometimes matter more to humans than the belief the rituals represent.

You present a strong case for invented traditon, RS.

"'Invented tradition' is taken to mean a set of practices, normally governed by overtly or tacitly accepted rules and of a ritual or symbolic nature, which seek to inculcate certain values and norms of behaviour by repetition, which automatically implies continuity with the past. In fact, where possible, they normally attempt to establish continuity with a suitable historic past.... However, insofar as there is such reference to a historic past, the peculiarity of 'invented' traditions is that the continuity with it is largely fictitious. In short, they are responses to novel situations which take the form of reference to old situations, or which establish their own past by quasi-obligatory repetition."

https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/citd/holtorf/6.3.html

Rising Sun*
04-26-2011, 10:01 AM
You present a strong case for invented traditon, RS.

"'Invented tradition' is taken to mean a set of practices, normally governed by overtly or tacitly accepted rules and of a ritual or symbolic nature, which seek to inculcate certain values and norms of behaviour by repetition, which automatically implies continuity with the past. In fact, where possible, they normally attempt to establish continuity with a suitable historic past.... However, insofar as there is such reference to a historic past, the peculiarity of 'invented' traditions is that the continuity with it is largely fictitious. In short, they are responses to novel situations which take the form of reference to old situations, or which establish their own past by quasi-obligatory repetition."

https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/citd/holtorf/6.3.html

I have some vague recollection of Hobsbawm from university in the 1970s or something soon after (when parts of my brain were still somewhat active), but not for anything specific.

There is a contrary possibility to "invented tradition" on the academic front, which is the creation of traditions and a myth by sloppy or plain fraudulent research. The best example of this is challenges to Margaret Mead's supposedly ground breaking research which for several decades stood as virtual dogma. http://www.stpt.usf.edu/~jsokolov/314mead1.htm

32Bravo
04-27-2011, 08:15 AM
I have some vague recollection of Hobsbawm from university in the 1970s or something soon after (when parts of my brain were still somewhat active), but not for anything specific.

That's odd, I was certain your uni days would have pre-dated the 70's ?



There is a contrary possibility to "invented tradition" on the academic front, which is the creation of traditions and a myth by sloppy or plain fraudulent research. The best example of this is challenges to Margaret Mead's supposedly ground breaking research which for several decades stood as virtual dogma. http://www.stpt.usf.edu/~jsokolov/314mead1.htm

Interesting how these 'academic cathedrals' are eventually brought down.

The case for 'invented tradition' seems pretty straight forward and examples of it are everywhere. It seems that Mead was 'inventing' invented traditions where they didn't exist for her own academic ends re: Samoa - cheat?

Rising Sun*
04-27-2011, 10:35 AM
That's odd, I was certain your uni days would have pre-dated the 70's ?

They should have started in 1968 (if I'd gone to uni, but the original plan was to go to agricultural college to learn to run and expand the family farm) but I left school (and, for the final and joyous time, home on the same day) in 1965 at 15 and knocked around in a variety of jobs and places.

When I had reached the dizzying heights of being a railway shunter at 19 with the prospect of spending the rest of my life on rotating day / afternoon / night shifts (rotating shifts seriously bugger up your social life and drinking cycle) I changed jobs so I could go to night school.

I qualified for university, although my aim was rather more modest when I started night school, at 23.

.

Interesting how these 'academic cathedrals' are eventually brought down.

The case for 'invented tradition' seems pretty straight forward and examples of it are everywhere. It seems that Mead was 'inventing' invented traditions where they didn't exist for her own academic ends re: Samoa - cheat?

Assuming Mead's research and publications were unreliable in some respects, and they seem to be, it remains that she was working in a newish area which wasn’t ‘hard’ science and that she was guilty of rather less than a lot of others in areas of harder science in the same era, such as the use of phrenology by the Nazis and many others and lobotomies as a cure for psychiatric illnesses.

I suspect that part of the appeal of Mead’s work was that it had elements of ‘the noble savage’ in it, demonstrating that people in a relatively primitive society avoided the problems of those in her contemporary American society. Not to mention a good bit of sexual liberality among the naughty natives, which was titillating at the time and for several decades afterwards.

MJ1
04-29-2011, 11:29 PM
Salute

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/9b2a5454.jpg

Rising Sun*
04-30-2011, 11:59 AM
Salute

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/9b2a5454.jpg

You got a burnt parsnip for Easter? ;) :D

MJ1
04-30-2011, 05:41 PM
You scrape the horseradish onto the kielbasa and egg the shoot the VO shot then chew the heck out of the egg kielbasas and shredded horseradish. It's kind of like the tequila salt and lemon ritual. It's an Easter thing before church,,,LOL.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/3376e7fa.jpg