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Nickdfresh
11-25-2010, 09:05 AM
November 24, 2010 12:13 PM
North Korea on the "Brink of War" ... Again
Posted by Joshua Norman

Smoke billow from Yeonpyeong island near the border against North Korea, in South Korea, Tuesday, Nov. 23, 2010. North Korea shot dozens of rounds of artillery onto the populated South Korean island near their disputed western border Tuesday, military officials said, setting buildings on fire and prompting South Korea to return fire and scramble fighter jets.
http://acidcow.com/pics/20101124/yeonpyeong_island_10.jpg
Following Tuesday's shelling by North Korea of Yeonpyeong island off South Korea's coast that left at least four people dead, the North Korean state press agency said the Democratic People's Republic of Korea had been "pushed to the brink of war," according to several wire reports.

"There is neither way to improve [relations] nor hope to bring them on track," North Korea's KCNA news agency quoted the Committee for the Peaceful Reunification of Korea as saying. "The confrontation between the North and the South in the political and military fields has been put to such extremes that the inter-Korean relations have reached the brink of a war."

Considering the large scale death and bloodshed of the war on the Korean peninsula just 50 years ago, statements like this should cause at least a mild panic in the international community.

Yet that kind of rhetoric has become so commonplace that U.S. State Department spokesperson Mark C. Toner said in a press conference Tuesday only that the U.S. and its allies would undertake a "measured and unified" response to North Korean hostilities.

"It is a pattern, absolutely," said Toner, in reference to North Korea's hostilities and bellicose rhetoric. "We've seen this story before. We're not going to buy into this reaction-reward cycle that North Korea seeks to perpetuate."

Whether DPRK's war rhetoric is a provocation or a genuine warning is hard to decode. In fact, the day before the shelling, KCNA warned that long-planned U.S.-South Korean joint military exercises scheduled to take place this week were "a criminal act of aggression for provoking another Korean war, (and) are pushing the situation of the Korean Peninsula to the brink of war."

Last June, following the sinking of a South Korean warship in international waters which killed 46 South Korean sailors, North Korea reacted angrily when blamed for the incident, even though an extensive investigation showed that it was a North Korean torpedo that did it.

At the time, KCNA wrote in a story that South Korea "faked up the incident" in an attempt to distract the world from its elections and that "those seeking a war and confrontation, estranged from the nation, are bound to face a miserable end."

Threats of war and a miserable end to its enemies by North Korea are nothing new - so much so that a South Korean official told UK daily The Independent after the shelling that "there is no need to react sensitively or get happy or sad over every single statement issued with some political motive."

The difference this time is that blood was spilled, and there is no sign of backing down on either side.

North Korea said after the shelling: "Should the south Korean puppet group dare intrude into the territorial waters of the DPRK even 0.001 mm, the revolutionary armed forces of the DPRK will unhesitatingly continue taking merciless military counter-actions against it."

South Korea responded with this official statement: "The Armed Forces of the Republic of Korea immediately and strongly responded to the provocation. The South Korean military will retaliate against any additional acts of provocation in a resolute manner."

Against this backdrop, the U.S. remains committed to holding long-planned joint military exercises with South Korea. The USS George Washington aircraft carrier group is scheduled to arrive in the region Nov. 28, and will serve as a sign of "the strength of the ROK (Republic of Korea)-U.S. Alliance and our commitment to regional stability through deterrence," according to a White House statement Tuesday.

Given its history, North Korea will likely have a response to that as well.

CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162-20023815-503543.html)

Rising Sun*
11-25-2010, 09:36 AM
1. This is one or more of (a) NK trying to bully SK and, more importantly, the US and its Allies into backing off over their increased military posture since NK sank the SK navy ship recently (b) NK trying to bully the same lot into granting concessions to NK (as they did with money for no more nukes, which money was paid without NK honouring its part, and the only people who were surprised were the American government elements who made the deal) because NK has so comprehensively f*cked its economy and agriculture that it can't survive without capital inflow, most of which, of course, will be diverted to the benefit of its hereditary dear leaders rather than the poor bastards they rule and exploit (c) the latest dear leader flexing his juvenile muscle to let SK know he's not a marshmallow.

2. The fly in this ointment is China, which generally supports its rogue nutcase neighbour. Combined with China's growing economic power; American indebtedness to China; the consequences of China revaluing its currency and plunging America further into debt; and China's expansion to a deep sea navy to challenge the US in the Pacific, we may be seeing a re-run of some of the circumstances leading to the Allied war with Japan, albeit not with America making all the running this time.

3. The seeds for Pacific War II are there. Not today or tomorrow, but in the next few years or decades. Ably assisted by the fact that the Chinese leadership is just as capable of bizarre action as is NK. Witness the Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap Forward.

4. It's no coincidence that various countries in the SE Asia region are re-evaluating their relationships with the US, to which they have been at worst hostile and at best cool, and looking to a more positive relationship with the only country on the planet that can and would be prepared to contest the Pacific region with China.

5. Cue swelling music and choral
O! say can you see by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming, ...

Iron Yeoman
11-26-2010, 02:58 AM
Just been on the BBC and here's the latest on it;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11844387

Iron Yeoman
11-26-2010, 03:02 AM
I hope they sort this out sharpish as 'Korean War Part II: Sins of the father' is going to mess up my shares. More seriously, this would have massive implications for an already fragile world economy and it is my hope that fact alone will get everyone to calm down and stop all this brinkmanship.

Rising Sun*
11-26-2010, 05:17 AM
I hope they sort this out sharpish as 'Korean War Part II: Sins of the father' is going to mess up my shares. More seriously, this would have massive implications for an already fragile world economy and it is my hope that fact alone will get everyone to calm down and stop all this brinkmanship.

The only mob that needs to calm down are those crazies in North Korea.

Nobody understands what goes through their isolated little minds, but they sure as hell are dangerous. Not least because they subscribe to the belief that the whole world but particularly the US is determined to and will destroy them (if only!), so there seems to be that gotterdammerung fatalism which infects the worst kind of dictatorships and results in the people being sacrificed by the deluded leaders.

Which is why it would be better for everyone if they, or at least their leadership, were removed.

But China stands in the way. So what does China get out of it? Probably the same sort of benefit an outlaw bikie gets by saying he's reformed but he can't control his pit bull, so it's best not to upset the dog as it may wreak mayhem. It keeps everybody wary of both the dog and its owner.

Rising Sun*
11-26-2010, 05:21 AM
I hope they sort this out sharpish as 'Korean War Part II: Sins of the father' is going to mess up my shares.

Samsung.

Recommendation: Sell

Iron Yeoman
11-26-2010, 06:50 AM
Samsung.

Recommendation: Sell

I don't have any there, I more concerned about my Japanese stocks!

Rising Sun*
11-26-2010, 07:02 AM
I don't have any there, I more concerned about my Japanese stocks!

I hope you didn't invest on the Japanese stock market. It's been somewhat underwhelming for the past 20 years or so.

Iron Yeoman
11-26-2010, 07:20 AM
I hope you didn't invest on the Japanese stock market. It's been somewhat underwhelming for the past 20 years or so.

Japanese industry mostly, technology companies etc. If Korea does go hot I might shift to BAE :army:

Rising Sun*
11-26-2010, 07:28 AM
Japanese industry mostly, technology companies etc. If Korea does go hot I might shift to BAE :army:


By all means feel free to ask me for investment advice.

My motto is "Buy at the bottom of the market, sell at the top."

My practice has, alas, been more the opposite.:(

Rising Sun*
11-26-2010, 07:44 AM
I was thinking about posting a reminder to people (other than student-scaley and me, as we are conducting a coded conversation at a meta-level beyond the ken of the average member ;)) to keep on topic, but upon momentary reflection I thought that this was a good thread in which to consider the relationship between stock markets and the prospect, and reality, of war.

My assessment of stock markets is that they are what most Western (forget about the rest) racetracks would be if largely unsuccessful efforts hadn't been made by racing authorities to stop horses being nobbled and jockeys pulling horses and everyone but the common punters trading in and benefiting from inside information. But even allowing for all the supposed experts trading (usually with other people's money) on the stock market and almost invariably failing to predict and avoid major collapses, the essence of the market is that it is a barometer of confidence.

So why doesn't something like the current NK craziness depress the markets significantly with the prospect of a major regional, if not international, war yet a minor drop in an overseas stock market a few hours ahead of a local market will be followed locally when the local stocks have sweet FA to do with the stocks sold down on the other side of the planet before the sun left that side of the planet?

Iron Yeoman
11-26-2010, 07:45 AM
By all means feel free to ask me for investment advice.

My motto is "Buy at the bottom of the market, sell at the top."

My practice has, alas, been more the opposite.:(

Don't take this the wrong way old chap but i'm not in the habit of taking investment advice of stangers on the internet :D

But all jollity aside, this is the very real concern of a conflict in Korea. Any conflict would act as a vortex to the local markets and economies that would have knock-on effects in the rest of the world. Which is why I think South Korea won't let it escalate too far and the Chinese will reign in their pitbull, North Korea.

It seems to be part of life in the pennisula, every so often there is a little spat or border incident causing the rest of the world to speculate on the liklihood of war starting anew but it usually calms down again. Everyone has too much too lose by going the full hog - money makes the world go round after all!

Rising Sun*
11-26-2010, 07:51 AM
Everyone has too much too lose by going the full hog - money makes the world go round after all!

Yes, and call me cynical, but it seems that NK engages in these bizarre and seemingly random, but I think very, very carefully calculated acts like a toddler's tantrum to get what it wants, which is money. And probably the bully's confirmation that by pushing its victim around it can get what it wants, which history shows NK has always got and which merely encourages it to keep doing it.

The really dangerous point will be reached when the West, being primarily America, cracks the shits with NK's tantrums and says 'No more' and means it. And NK, and China, don't realise they really do mean it.

Iron Yeoman
11-26-2010, 07:56 AM
Yes, and call me cynical, but it seems that NK engages in these bizarre and seemingly random, but I think very, very carefully calculated acts like a toddler's tantrum to get what it wants, which is money. And probably the bully's confirmation that by pushing its victim around it can get what it wants, which history shows NK has always got and which merely encourages it to keep doing it.

The really dangerous point will be reached when the West, being primarily America, cracks the shits with NK's tantrums and says 'No more' and means it. And NK, and China, don't realise they really do mean it.

Come that day my antipodean friend, I'll suddenly develop a medical ailment and have myself medically downgraded. As that war is going to be one of the biggest meat grinders in a generation.

The Fiendish Red Baron
11-26-2010, 08:40 AM
China will step on NK long before they do anything serious... Or if they do anything serious!

China cannot afford anything that damages Western trade and relations. They still keep their bluster up publically, but the reality is that China needs the West and the US as much as we need them.

An errant North Korea is as likely to be backhanded by China as by the US.

Rising Sun*
11-26-2010, 08:46 AM
Come that day my antipodean friend, I'll suddenly develop a medical ailment and have myself medically downgraded.

That's been my lifelong approach to any prospect of war, but unless things get to an abysmal situation I'm luckily old enough to escape the draft or, if drafted (pretty much at the Hitler dying day stage of getting lightly armed and confused old civilian men in overcoats to face the Stalin Organs and terrify the Russians into surrendering by the impressiveness of their overcoats) probably have a coronary from the shock of receiving the draft notice. After someone read it to me, because I forgot where my glasses are, as I forget so much these days.

Either, way, I'm probably dead before having to hump a pack. I'm definitely dead about 2 klicks into humping one. Unless I can get a mobility scooter with a handicapped parking permit sticker, preferably with a ring mount .50 cal :D which will probably turn turtle if I fire a three round burst :(


As that war is going to be one of the biggest meat grinders in a generation.

Or possibly in the 21st century.

But it depends on how it's fought.

On the ground, the North Koreans and Chinese were fierce in the Korean War and, for safety, should be expected to be roughly the same now.

But, unlike their enemies, they haven't had any experience in ground warfare for half a century and, more importantly, in all the command, control, logistics, computer command and updates, cooperation between arms, cooperation between services, etc that their opponents have gained in wars during that period.

On a one for one basis, relying upon the Korean War and NK fanaticism, NK would troops would undoubtedly give a very good account of themselves. The Chinese probably about the same, but perhaps to a lesser degree as China has moved closer to the West in values and ambitions.

If the war is confined to a ground war on the Korean peninsula then NK might prevail. Assuming that SK doesn’t have the benefit of American support of the type which has been useful but not decisive in counterinsurgency wars in Iraq and Afghanistan but which could be decisive in conventional warfare on the peninsula, such as drones, satellites, air support, and high level staff work which brings these and many other things together against a conventional enemy.

It would probably be a relief for the Americans finally to face an enemy in conventional warfare where all their command, tactical and logistical structures are ideally trained and placed to cream an enemy of lesser technical quality and resources, regardless of the bravery or fanaticism of the enemy troops.

If the conflict is to go beyond the peninsula, that becomes a naval contest. And NK is ****ed, as is China which is just now trying to build a deep sea fleet.

And if it becomes nuclear, NK and China are ****ed.

Revisit this in twenty or thirty years and the tables might be turned, but now my money is on the Yanks.

If, for a change since 1945, they stop fighting with one or both hands tied behind their back in a restricted war for political purposes instead of pissing about and losing good men to no purpose, let alone to no good purpose, in a war they shouldn't have got into in the first place if they weren't going to fight it unrestrictedly to win it. For a change.

It's dismaying to watch a heavyweight pull his punches against a featherweight while the heavyweight chivalrously allows the featherweight to bite the balls off him and gnaw the featherweight's way up his vitals.

Iron Yeoman
11-26-2010, 08:55 AM
I was thinking about posting a reminder to people (other than student-scaley and me, as we are conducting a coded conversation at a meta-level beyond the ken of the average member ;))

You could always threaten them with jankers or sixes and tens for going beyond the LOE. Again my offer to translate all things British still stands, although not over this weekend as i'm in the oolu on stag.

My assessment of stock markets is that they are what most Western (forget about the rest) racetracks would be if largely unsuccessful efforts hadn't been made by racing authorities to stop horses being nobbled and jockeys pulling horses and everyone but the common punters trading in and benefiting from inside information. But even allowing for all the supposed experts trading (usually with other people's money) on the stock market and almost invariably failing to predict and avoid major collapses, the essence of the market is that it is a barometer of confidence.

So why doesn't something like the current NK craziness depress the markets significantly with the prospect of a major regional, if not international, war yet a minor drop in an overseas stock market a few hours ahead of a local market will be followed locally when the local stocks have sweet FA to do with the stocks sold down on the other side of the planet before the sun left that side of the planet?

And when I figure this one out I'll let you know and we'll both be rich men. As said invest in firms that make bullets and also those that make bread.

The Fiendish Red Baron
11-26-2010, 08:57 AM
Well China did scrap with Vietnam in '79. So they have had a little exercise in warfare in the latter half of the 20th Century.

I wouldnt underestimate China on land... Its at sea that they are a joke.

The Fiendish Red Baron
11-26-2010, 09:00 AM
Funnily enough my Grandfather bought a load of shares in US armaments and aviation companys during the first week of September 2001.

He made a killing on that stock when he sold it a few months later...

Iron Yeoman
11-26-2010, 09:10 AM
That's been my lifelong approach to any prospect of war, but unless things get to an abysmal situation I'm luckily old enough to escape the draft or, if drafted (pretty much at the Hitler dying day stage of getting lightly armed and confused old civilian men in overcoats to face the Stalin Organs and terrify the Russians into surrendering by the impressiveness of their overcoats) probably have a coronary from the shock of receiving the draft notice. After someone read it to me, because I forgot where my glasses are, as I forget so much these days.

Either, way, I'm probably dead before having to hump a pack. I'm definitely dead about 2 klicks into humping one. Unless I can get a mobility scooter with a handicapped parking permit sticker, preferably with a ring mount .50 cal :D which will probably turn turtle if I fire a three round burst :(

I however, am still young enough so I shall be arranging my transfer into the Women's Royal Auxiliary Ballon Corps as soon as it kicks off.


Or possibly in the 21st century.

But it depends on how it's fought.

On the ground, the North Koreans and Chinese were fierce in the Korean War and, for safety, should be expected to be roughly the same now.

But, unlike their enemies, they haven't had any experience in ground warfare for half a century and, more importantly, in all the command, control, logistics, computer command and updates, cooperation between arms, cooperation between services, etc that their opponents have gained in wars during that period.

On a one for one basis, relying upon the Korean War and NK fanaticism, NK would troops would undoubtedly give a very good account of themselves. The Chinese probably about the same, but perhaps to a lesser degree as China has moved closer to the West in values and ambitions.

If the war is confined to a ground war on the Korean peninsula then NK might prevail. Assuming that SK doesn’t have the benefit of American support of the type which has been useful but not decisive in counterinsurgency wars in Iraq and Afghanistan but which could be decisive in conventional warfare on the peninsula, such as drones, satellites, air support, and high level staff work which brings these and many other things together against a conventional enemy.

It would probably be a relief for the Americans finally to face an enemy in conventional warfare where all their command, tactical and logistical structures are ideally trained and placed to cream an enemy of lesser technical quality and resources, regardless of the bravery or fanaticism of the enemy troops.

If the conflict is to go beyond the peninsula, that becomes a naval contest. And NK is ****ed, as is China which is just now trying to build a deep sea fleet.

And if it becomes nuclear, NK and China are ****ed.

Revisit this in twenty or thirty years and the tables might be turned, but now my money is on the Yanks.

If, for a change since 1945, they stop fighting with one or both hands tied behind their back in a restricted war for political purposes instead of pissing about and losing good men to no purpose, let alone to no good purpose, in a war they shouldn't have got into in the first place if they weren't going to fight it unrestrictedly to win it. For a change.

It's dismaying to watch a heavyweight pull his punches against a featherweight while the heavyweight chivalrously allows the featherweight to bite the balls off him and gnaw the featherweight's way up his vitals.

I can't speak for the competantcy of the NK forces, because as previously indicated no one has seen them engage in a decent land op since 1953. However, what can be positively suggested is that they will hit hard and with little or no regard for casualties or infrastructure (both their own and the South Koreans).

They are so indocrinated that they will beleive in the final and unshakable victory even when American bombers are spewing hot death on Pyongyang, western tanks are pounding the capital to rubble and South Korean and allied infantrymen kick the door in on the supreme leader's palace.

Rising Sun*
11-26-2010, 09:13 AM
You could always threaten them with jankers or sixes and tens for going beyond the LOE. Again my offer to translate all things British still stands, although not over this weekend as i'm in the oolu on stag.

Translation: I have be on duty in the bush [of the jungle, not female kind] this weekend as punishment.

Be that as it may, why not start a thread on military terms / intepretations / phrases for the various armies / nations of the world.

It could incorporate Australian terms such as:

She's apples.

Spine bashing.

Pull up the ladder.

Are you pregnant?

Who called the cook a ****?



And when I figure this one out I'll let you know and we'll both be rich men. As said invest in firms that make bullets and also those that make bread.

Could you do this by PM?

I don't want the other heavy investors on this site getting in on our act and stuffing up the market before I can plunge my $100 into it.

Rising Sun*
11-26-2010, 09:19 AM
I however, am still young enough so I shall be arranging my transfer into the Women's Royal Auxiliary Ballon Corps as soon as it kicks off.

I admire your bravery.

For my part, as you may gather from my avatar, I prefer to be with the ladies on the ground at the source of nature.

In more than one way.

But always for the good of the nation.

Rising Sun*
11-26-2010, 09:26 AM
However, what can be positively suggested is that they will hit hard and with little or no regard for casualties or infrastructure (both their own and the South Koreans).

Agreed.


They are so indocrinated

Definitely.

I saw a documentary a few years ago where a senior NK officer blithely parroted, to our better informed opinion utterly absurd, beliefs about American and other external threats to NK which demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of the world outside his borders but a serious danger to the rest of the world, and not necessarily as a response to a perceived attack.


that they will beleive in the final and unshakable victory even when American bombers are spewing hot death on Pyongyang, western tanks are pounding the capital to rubble and South Korean and allied infantrymen kick the door in on the supreme leader's palace.

Which, alas, is the long and sad history of the dupes of meglomaniacs.

Iron Yeoman
11-26-2010, 09:33 AM
I admire your bravery.

For my part, as you may gather from my avatar, I prefer to be with the ladies on the ground at the source of nature.

In more than one way.

But always for the good of the nation.

Thank you, I have, now for 2 years tried in vain to transfer to the RAMC or RLC (Catering) but to no avail. The FANY's wouldn't have me as my moustache isn't bushy enough. Hopefully the WRABC will appreciate my war dodging.

If you start up the international military translation thread I'll start contributing when I'm back from my lovely sojourn on exercise freezing my giblets off in the baltic weather of -4c that we're currently experiencing down here.

tankgeezer
11-26-2010, 10:43 AM
Quote: "and the Chinese will reign in their pitbull, North Korea."

Pit bull May be an over statement, More along the lines of Uncle Ernie from Tommy.

tankgeezer
11-26-2010, 09:31 PM
Quote: "As said invest in firms that make bullets and also those that make bread. " Dont forget to send a few pennies to the outfit that makes Tomahawk missiles, as I think they will become popular if things get ballistic on the K. peninsula. Right now, the collective "Kims" are formulating strategy by screening the Mouse that Roared.

Churchill
11-27-2010, 01:46 AM
Just saw a cartoon faces of China and NK, then an animation of China slapping NK upside the head, inside my head... It was really weird, and high in entertainment value.

Rising Sun*
11-27-2010, 08:23 AM
Right now, the collective "Kims" are formulating strategy by screening the Mouse that Roared.

That pretty much sums it up.

I wish I'd thought of putting it so clearly and concisely. :(

pdf27
11-27-2010, 09:46 AM
If the Chinese get involved in a new Korean war, it'll be a case of them sending a very large army across the Yalu to try and secure any nuclear weapons kicking around. They were NOT happy with the latest incident!

Iron Yeoman
11-28-2010, 03:22 PM
Well here's the latest from the BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11856454

Nickdfresh
11-28-2010, 03:47 PM
If the Chinese get involved in a new Korean war, it'll be a case of them sending a very large army across the Yalu to try and secure any nuclear weapons kicking around. They were NOT happy with the latest incident!

And to prevent an influx of starving North Korean refugees...

tankgeezer
11-28-2010, 05:33 PM
I saw this today, I think America should make this happen. (It would solve numerous problems)

Clinton: North Korea Needs Good Spanking

Posted on August 03, 2009. Tags: clinton, discipline, Hillary Clinton, Kim Jong Il, North Korea, Phuket, secretary of state
Posted by P. Beckert
Clinton: North Korea Needs Good Spanking

Phuket, Thailand – Hillary Clinton angrily announced yesterday from Phuket (pronounced “fuh-ket” or alternatively “Phuket”), that she’s had it with North Koreans, likening them to little children demanding attention.

She expressed the desire to take Kim Jong Il over her knee and give him a good spanking. She scolded them for being so mean that they now don’t have any friends, and told them if they don’t stop shooting their rockets off, she was going ground them for three weeks with no internet.

The petulant N. Koreans called Clinton a mean mommy and stomped off to make some more rockets. “Who cares?” they muttered. “Who needs friends when you have enriched uranium?”

Editorial Note: We’re pretty sure Phuket is pronounced “Pooh Git”, though the alternate “fhqwhgads” is also common and acceptable.

Iron Yeoman
11-29-2010, 05:47 AM
What the North Koreans need is a healthy dose of reality. Sadly unless you've got a jolly strong transmitter and are prepared to spend tens of millions on radio & tv programmes in order to try to de-programme the people of North Korea, then that isn't going to happen any time soon.

Rising Sun*
11-29-2010, 06:33 AM
What the North Koreans need is a healthy dose of reality. Sadly unless you've got a jolly strong transmitter and are prepared to spend tens of millions on radio & tv programmes in order to try to de-programme the people of North Korea, then that isn't going to happen any time soon.

The problem with that is that they've been so thoroughly indoctrinated that most of them would not believe what they were being told anyway.

For example, why would someone reduced to eating grass under the greatest regime in the world lovingly cared for by Dear Leader believe that the decadent Americans can eat big slabs of beef every day, or pull into McDonalds and eat a few slabs of alleged beef smothered in alleged cheese with allegedly fresh alleged vegetables and alleged mayo on an alleged sesame seed alleged bun for substantially less than the cost of a lump of beef, with half a gallon of Coke thrown in?

Iron Yeoman
11-29-2010, 07:44 AM
The problem with that is that they've been so thoroughly indoctrinated that most of them would not believe what they were being told anyway.

For example, why would someone reduced to eating grass under the greatest regime in the world lovingly cared for by Dear Leader believe that the decadent Americans can eat big slabs of beef every day, or pull into McDonalds and eat a few slabs of alleged beef smothered in alleged cheese with allegedly fresh alleged vegetables and alleged mayo on an alleged sesame seed alleged bun for substantially less than the cost of a lump of beef, with half a gallon of Coke thrown in?

That bit's true isn't it? :D

Rising Sun*
11-29-2010, 07:47 AM
That bit's true isn't it? :D

Allegedly. :D

Iron Yeoman
11-29-2010, 08:17 AM
Allegedly. :D

I wasn't too impressed with Mr. MacDonalds yesterday, after spending the weekend in the oolu with the lowest temperatures in Britain since 1919, I decided that student-scaley deserved a night off cooking and with the idea of piping hot junk food in my mind I promptly headed off in the direction of the nearest golden arches.

Oh how wrong I was. After getting my food I tabbed back to my flat, no more than 3-4 minutes away. I was not impressed that my food which five minutes earlier had been handed to me by the cream of Macdonald's staff was now cold, at best luke warm. B*stards!

Rising Sun*
11-29-2010, 08:59 AM
I wasn't too impressed with Mr. MacDonalds yesterday, after spending the weekend in the oolu with the lowest temperatures in Britain since 1919, I decided that student-scaley deserved a night off cooking and with the idea of piping hot junk food in my mind I promptly headed off in the direction of the nearest golden arches.

Oh how wrong I was. After getting my food I tabbed back to my flat, no more than 3-4 minutes away. I was not impressed that my food which five minutes earlier had been handed to me by the cream of Macdonald's staff was now cold, at best luke warm. B*stards!

I may be one of the few people in the Western world who has not tasted, and has not the least desire to taste, a Macca's offering.

Beyond their chips and (allegedly including cows' milk rather than pig fat and thickeners) alleged milk shakes.

A mere quarter of a century ago Mrs RS and I ventured a few thousand miles up the east coast of Oz. We passed through many towns, villages, hamlets and quaint stores in the middle of nowhere where the colour, texture, odour, and thickness of grease on the windows of the local fish and chippery / hambuggery / souvlaki palace multiplied by the number of flies outside and, worse, inside discouraged us from sampling their country wares. Macca's was rather new then, and significantly cleaner than the alternatives and largely free of flies as it had doors (something of a novelty in the hilbilly parts through which we rapidly passed to the alarming sound of plucking banjos), so we often ended up grudgingly ingesting Macca's alleged comestibles. (co·mes·ti·ble (k-mst-bl) adj. Fit to be eaten; edible. n. Something that can be eaten as food: meat, cheese, and other comestibles. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/comestible ) It took me little more than a month after the last feed to get the taste of the chip fat out of my mouth, and less than a year or two to be able to pass a Macca's spewing that cloying fat smell out of its chimney without me feeling bilious.

I am in recovery now. Sometimes I steal chips, or French fries as Macca's quaintly call them, from my children's meals, but I can stop. After about the first disappointing handful.

The chocolate milkshakes are a different issue, but I succumb no more than a couple of times a year. It could be more, but most of the times I give in to this weakness of the flesh the child on the other end of the tannoy tells me that the shake machine isn't ****ing working!

All that said, and seriously now, how lucky are we that we can moan about the quality of food which would be a luxury of unimaginable quality and quantity to millions of North Koreans, while the latest Dear Leader was educated overseas while most of his people starved to fund his privileges and the other excesses of the privileged classes at the top of the pyramid in the workers' paradise?

Dear Leader etc make Stalin and Mao seem benevolent.

The North Koreans would be vastly better off under the conditions in China to their north and much more so under the conditions in South Korea to their south. It is a tragedy for the proletariat in NK that their benighted leaders keep them behind the rest of the world.

Iron Yeoman
11-29-2010, 09:12 AM
I couldn't agree more, we are very lucky to live in societies whereby we can eat what we fancy rather than what the commissar has decided we should eat for that week.

And this is another reason why we should avoid a war with North Korea at all costs, if you thought re-building Iraq was bad, North Korea will be a lot worse, the victorious allie would have to feed pretty much everyone north of the current border until their agriculture and food production could be sorted. There would probably be wide-spread crime as the the North Koreans saw the lives and possessions of their southern cousins and starting to covet them.

Cecil Rhodes was right when he said
'Remember you were born an Englishman, and have consequently won the first prize in the lottery of life'

Rising Sun*
11-29-2010, 09:36 AM
I couldn't agree more, we are very lucky to live in societies whereby we can eat what we fancy rather than what the commissar has decided we should eat for that week.

Or what we shall not eat, while the fat bastard Commissar stuffs his face while deciding where the products of our rural labour shall be bestowed upon the privileged classes in a land of supposed equals.


And this is another reason why we should avoid a war with North Korea at all costs, if you thought re-building Iraq was bad, North Korea will be a lot worse, the victorious allie would have to feed pretty much everyone north of the current border until their agriculture and food production could be sorted. There would probably be wide-spread crime as the the North Koreans saw the lives and possessions of their southern cousins and starting to covet them.

Or China could step in and take responsibility for, and bring to heel, a monster it helped create 60 years ago.


Cecil Rhodes was right when he said
'Remember you were born an Englishman, and have consequently won the first prize in the lottery of life'

He was not fully informed. The correct line is 'Remember you were born an Australian, and have consequently won the first prize in the lottery of life. If any other bastard tries to claim the prize, stab him in the eye and knee him in the balls." This is the sort of conciliatory practical approach to dispute resolution which makes Australians the fine people they are. :D

Iron Yeoman
11-29-2010, 10:11 AM
Or what we shall not eat, while the fat bastard Commissar stuffs his face while deciding where the products of our rural labour shall be bestowed upon the privileged classes in a land of supposed equals.



Or China could step in and take responsibility for, and bring to heel, a monster it helped create 60 years ago.



He was not fully informed. The correct line is 'Remember you were born an Australian, and have consequently won the first prize in the lottery of life. If any other bastard tries to claim the prize, stab him in the eye and knee him in the balls." This is the sort of conciliatory practical approach to dispute resolution which makes Australians the fine people they are . :D

Need I remind you as to whom currently holds the Ashes? (and will likely retain them too :D )

tankgeezer
11-29-2010, 10:26 AM
Quote: " someone reduced to eating grass under the greatest regime in the world" Where are these Bourgeois social parasites? Eating grass that dear leader needs for his gout pillow, while everyone else gleans nettles, and brier ,and the occasional forbidden worm. The gift of Dear Leader to allow them strength to adore him as he airlifts Mc D's for his 120 Lhasa Apso's Who could complain?

Iron Yeoman
11-29-2010, 12:48 PM
Quote: " someone reduced to eating grass under the greatest regime in the world" Where are these Bourgeois social parasites? Eating grass that dear leader needs for his gout pillow, while everyone else gleans nettles, and brier ,and the occasional forbidden worm. The gift of Dear Leader to allow them strength to adore him as he airlifts Mc D's for his 120 Lhasa Apso's Who could complain?

You think they've got it bad in North Korea? Try Yorkshire

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13JK5kChbRw

tankgeezer
11-29-2010, 01:17 PM
We had our privations as well,,,,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1_NhnXMCKw

Rising Sun*
11-30-2010, 07:22 AM
Need I remind you as to whom currently holds the Ashes? (and will likely retain them too :D )

No, you don't need to remind me, because we've held them for so much of the past couple of decades that it's easy to remember the rare occasions your lot held them. :D

Then again, your lot is to be congratulated on regaining them last year after a fairly brief drought of 75 years at Lords from 1934 to 2009 during which we routinely thrashed your lot. ;) :D

Banter aside, here are summaries of the wartime fates of three of your team in the 1934 series, which illustrates some of the impact of the war on the best and brightest of that generation.


Hedley Verity

The great Yorkshire left-arm spinner dismissed Bradman eight times and led him to say there was no “breaking-point,” with Verity. He died as a prisoner of war in Italy, on July 31 1943. He was wounded leading his men during the British Army’s first attack on German positions at Catania, Sicily.

Ken Farnes

The young Farnes opened the bowling with 40 year-old Geary in the first Test and became only the sixth Englishman to take 10 wickets on his Test debut but was dropped after Lord’s. A bustling, muscular fast bowler with a light touch. He met a tragic end dying in 1941 on an RAF night-training exercise.

Bill Bowes

Was only selected for six out of 20 Ashes Tests between 1932-39 but took 30 wickets at 24.70 – respectable in the Bradman era. He was captured at Tobruk and spent three years as a prisoner of war. He later became a journalist and died aged 79 in 1987. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/international/theashes/5828384/The-Ashes-Hedley-Verity-the-hero-of-England-last-Test-win-over-Australia-at-Lords-in-1934.html

Our Keith Miller http://www.awm.gov.au/exhibitions/fiftyaustralians/32.asp embodied all the best qualites of that generation, but his interview with Michael Parkinson also put cricket and war into their proper perspective.


MARK BANNERMAN: Keith Miller played 55 Tests and would have played a lot more had World War II not intervened.

Miller was a Mosquito fighter pilot flying over Germany.

Facing death day after day it seems that time informed much of the rest of his life.

GIDEON HAIG, CRICKET WRITER: I think when a person like that has been surrounded by mortality, imminent mortality, when he's walked away from crash landings and decided that today his number wasn't up, maybe tomorrow it might be different, everything thereafter, you get the sense that you have to take advantage of the time that's been granted to you.

MARK BANNERMAN: According to cricket writer Gideon Haig, this wartime experience defined Miller both as a man and as a cricketer.

GIDEON HAIG: Miller's interesting because where we tend to associate Sir Donald Bradman with the Great Depression, we regard him as the great solace for depression, I think we automatically identify Miller with the Second World War.

He is the embodiment of the warrior athlete who returned from war and beat his sword into a bat rather than a plough share and as a result his cricket was accompanied by a whiff of danger, a whiff of strangeness and unearthliness that accompanied his cricket throughout the rest of his career.

MARK BANNERMAN: For television interviewer and cricket lover Michael Parkinson, his understanding of life, death and sport made Miller a true great.

MICHAEL PARKINSON, TELEVISION INTERVIEWER, ON 'ENOUGH ROPE': I want this quote in every dressing room of every sporting event anywhere in the world - Miller's great quote when somebody asked him about pressure.

"Pressure," he said.

"I'll tell you what pressure is.

Pressure is a Messerschmitt up your arse.

Playing cricket is not." http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2004/s1218626.htm

Iron Yeoman
11-30-2010, 07:33 AM
No, you don't need to remind me, because we've held them for so much of the past couple of decades that it's easy to remember the rare occasions your lot held them. :D

Then again, your lot is to be congratulated on regaining them last year after a fairly brief drought of 75 years at Lords from 1934 to 2009 during which we routinely thrashed your lot. ;) :D



Bollocks, I was hoping the consumption of various MacDonald's products, the chemicals contained and all that sun south of the equator would have affected your memory. :shock:

Rising Sun*
11-30-2010, 07:42 AM
Bollocks, I was hoping the consumption of various MacDonald's products, the chemicals contained and all that sun south of the equator would have affected your memory. :shock:

The fact that I have any memory at all is a tribute to the purity of Australian beer, for beers of lesser purity would have left my cranial vault empty.

Or maybe that's happened, and I just don't know?

Or care! ;) :D

Iron Yeoman
11-30-2010, 07:43 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11871641

Now this is starting to worry me, if China have seriously considered abandoning the North and preferring the whole of the pennisula to be run by Seoul then this could have massive rammifications.

Most of the ruling elite in NK are the old revolutionaries, if they think they've been sold out by China they may just go for broke. Try to invade the south and then go back to the Chinese in an improved negotiating position. Wether that is being considered or not, this latest revelation makes the situation even more unstable than before. The NK elite, with no Chinese backing and seeing the state crumble from within may just go for that last role of the dice and bring on their own Gotterdamerung on their terms rather than wait for it to be imposed when Kim dies.

Rising Sun*
11-30-2010, 07:48 AM
Bollocks, I was hoping ... all that sun south of the equator would have affected your memory. :shock:

Mate, I'm down the bottom of the Great South Land, where I might more accurately be said to be north of the South Pole.

We hardly ever get a day above 40C this far down. ;) :D

Iron Yeoman
11-30-2010, 07:53 AM
Mate, I'm down the bottom of the Great South Land, where I might more accurately be said to be north of the South Pole.

We hardly ever get a day above 40C this far down. ;) :D

Whereas, here in God's own paradise, known as the UK we have constant rain, wind and presently snow. How I laughed this weekend when the temperatures was -12 and my water bottle froze. :(

Rising Sun*
11-30-2010, 08:00 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11871641

Now this is starting to worry me, if China have seriously considered abandoning the North and preferring the whole of the pennisula to be run by Seoul then this could have massive rammifications.

Most of the ruling elite in NK are the old revolutionaries, if they think they've been sold out by China they may just go for broke. Try to invade the south and then go back to the Chinese in an improved negotiating position. Wether that is being considered or not, this latest revelation makes the situation even more unstable than before. The NK elite, with no Chinese backing and seeing the state crumble from within may just go for that last role of the dice and bring on their own Gotterdamerung on their terms rather than wait for it to be imposed when Kim dies.

Maybe.

But so far NK has been crazy like a fox, cleverly playing the West for advantage.

If NK pulls the same bullshit with China, which understands and plays the same games on the same terms, NK is in trouble if it has lost China's support.

What's in it for China?

Support NK and lose all the benefits to the Party, Army and related officials derived from the industriousness and commerce of the new capitalists fuelling the PRC economy?

Or ditch NK and keep and expand upon all those benefits?

The major risk in this situation is that the Communist old guard in China gains the uppper hand and supports NK, but that assumes that there is a Communist old guard which could gain power and wants to go back to the past where the Great Leap Forward and other brilliantly conceived propaganda programs sent China backwards under Party control when it is now advancing dramatically in all economic and many social terms through the efforts of China's free enterprise industrialists and merchants.

It's a no brainer for anyone except a doctrinaire Communist of the local variety.

Rising Sun*
11-30-2010, 08:24 AM
Whereas, here in God's own paradise, known as the UK we have constant rain, wind and presently snow.

Surely there is a bright spot?

Although it's probably not in Wales. Or Scotland. ;) :D (I omitted Ireland, for reasons which should not need to be stated.)


How I laughed this weekend when the temperatures was -12 and my water bottle froze. :(

Ah, the admirable British Tommy with his stiff upper lip, rakishly tilted helmet, cheeky smile, and cuppa char.

Oh, sorry. No cuppa char with frozen water bottles.

Have you thought of iced tea? :mrgreen:

Iron Yeoman
11-30-2010, 08:46 AM
Ah, the admirable British Tommy with his stiff upper lip, rakishly tilted helmet, cheeky smile, and cuppa char.

Oh, sorry. No cuppa char with frozen water bottles.

Have you thought of iced tea? :mrgreen:

Never underestimate the British tom's (tommy is SOO last century) ability to make a brew or find a kebab van

Nickdfresh
11-30-2010, 10:49 AM
We had our privations as well,,,,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1_NhnXMCKw

Was that Andy Rooney? :)

Nickdfresh
11-30-2010, 11:03 AM
Some interesting speculations are coming out of the Wikileaks documents:

Leaked cables show guessing about N. Korea
Documents help explain why some suspect North's recent outbursts may be last snarls of dying dictatorship


WASHINGTON — With North Korea reeling from economic and succession crises, American and South Korean officials early this year secretly began gaming out what would happen if the North, led by one of the world’s most brutal family dynasties, collapsed.

Over an official lunch in late February, a top South Korean official confidently told the American ambassador, Kathleen Stephens, that the fall would come “two to three years” after the death of Kim Jong-il, the country’s ailing leader, Ms. Stephens later cabled Washington. A new, younger generation of Chinese leaders “would be comfortable with a reunited Korea controlled by Seoul and anchored to the United States in a benign alliance,” the diplomat, Chun Yung-woo, predicted.
But if Seoul was destined to control the entire Korean Peninsula for the first time since the end of World War II, China — the powerful ally that keeps the North alive with food and fuel — would have to be placated. So South Korea was already planning to assure Chinese companies that they would have ample commercial opportunities in the mineral-rich northern part of the peninsula.

U.S. military presence unwelcome
As for the United States, the cable said, “China would clearly ‘not welcome’ any U.S. military presence north of the DMZ,” the heavily mined demarcation line that now divides the two Koreas.

This trove of cables ends in February, just before North Korea began a series of military actions that has thrown some of Asia’s most prosperous countries into crisis. A month after the lunch, the North is believed to have launched a torpedo attack on the Cheonan, a South Korean warship, that killed 46 sailors.

Three weeks ago it revealed the existence of a uranium enrichment plant, potentially giving it a new pathway to make nuclear bomb material. And last week it shelled a South Korean island, killing two civilians and two marines and injuring many more.

None of that was predicted in the dozens of State Department cables about North Korea obtained by the organization WikiLeaks, and in fact even China, the North’s closest ally, has often been startlingly wrong, the cables show. But the documents help explain why some South Korean and American officials suspect that the military outbursts may be the last snarls of a dying dictatorship.

They also show that talk of the North’s collapse may be rooted more in hope than in any real strategy: similar predictions were made in 1994 when the country’s founder, Kim Il-sung, suddenly died, leaving his son to run the most isolated country in Asia. And a Chinese expert warned, according to an American diplomat, that Washington was deceiving itself once again if it believed that “North Korea would implode after Kim Jong-il’s death.”

The cables about North Korea — some emanating from Seoul, some from Beijing, many based on interviews with government officials, and others with scholars, defectors and other experts — are long on educated guesses and short on facts, illustrating why their subject is known as the Black Hole of Asia. Because they are State Department documents, not intelligence reports, they do not include the most secret American assessments, or the American military’s plans in case North Korea disintegrates or lashes out.

They contain loose talk and confident predictions of the end of the family dynasty that has ruled North Korea for 65 years. Those discussions were fueled by a rash of previously undisclosed defections of ranking North Korean diplomats, who secretly sought refuge in the South.
NBC reports on reaction to leaks abroad

But they were also influenced by a remarkable period of turmoil inside North Korea, including an economic crisis set off by the government’s failed effort to revalue its currency and sketchy intelligence suggesting that the North Korean military might not abide the rise of Mr. Kim’s inexperienced young son, Kim Jong-un, who was recently made a four-star general despite having no military experience.

Laughing about North Korean paranoia
The cables reveal that in private, the Chinese, long seen as North Korea’s last protectors against the West, occasionally provide the Obama administration with colorful assessments of the state of play in North Korea. Chinese officials themselves sometimes even laugh about the frustrations of dealing with North Korean paranoia.

When James B. Steinberg, the deputy secretary of state, sat down in September 2009 with one of China’s most powerful officials, Dai Bingguo, state councilor for foreign affairs, Mr. Dai joked that in a recent visit to North Korea he “did not dare” to be too candid with the ailing and mercurial North Korean leader. But the Chinese official reported that although Kim Jong-il had apparently suffered a stroke and had obviously lost weight, he still had a “sharp mind” and retained his reputation among Chinese officials as “quite a good drinker.” (Mr. Kim apparently assured Mr. Dai during a two-hour conversation in Pyongyang, the capital, that his infirmities had not forced him to give up alcohol.)
Video: King: WikiLeaks is ‘terrorist organization’

But reliable intelligence about Mr. Kim’s drinking habits, it turns out, does not extend to his nuclear program, about which even the Chinese seem to be in the dark.

On May 13, 2009, as American satellites showed unusual activity at North Korea’s nuclear test site, officials in Beijing said they were “unsure” that North Korean “threats of another nuclear test were serious.” As it turns out, the North Koreans detonated a test bomb just days later.

Soon after, Chinese officials predicted that negotiations intended to pressure the North to disarm would be “shelved for a few months.” They have never resumed.

The cables also show that almost as soon as the Obama administration came to office, it started raising alarms that the North was buying up components to enrich uranium, opening a second route for it to build nuclear weapons. (Until now, the North’s arsenal has been based on its production of plutonium, but its production capacity has been halted.)

In June 2009, at a lunch in Beijing shortly after the North Korean nuclear test, two senior Chinese Foreign Ministry officials reported that China’s experts believed “the enrichment was only in its initial phases.” In fact, based on what the North Koreans revealed this month, an industrial-scale enrichment plant was already under construction. It was apparently missed by both American and Chinese intelligence services.

'Increasingly chaotic' situation in the North
The cables make it clear that the South Koreans believe that internal tensions in the North have reached a boiling point. In January of this year, South Korea’s foreign minister, who later resigned, reported to a visiting American official that the South Koreans saw an “increasingly chaotic” situation in the North.

In confidence, he told the American official, Robert R. King, the administration’s special envoy for North Korean human rights issues, that a number of “high-ranking North Korean officials working overseas” had recently defected to the South. Those defections were being kept secret, presumably to give American and South Korean intelligence agencies time to harvest the defectors’ knowledge.
Story: Signs of disarray in S. Korea in wake of attack

But the cables also reveal that the South Koreans see their strategic interests in direct conflict with China’s, creating potentially huge diplomatic tensions over the future of the Korean Peninsula.

The South Koreans complain bitterly that China is content with the status quo of a nuclear North Korea, because they fear that a collapse would unleash a flood of North Korean refugees over the Chinese border and lead to the loss of a “buffer zone” between China and the American forces in South Korea.

At one point, Ambassador Stephens reported to Washington, a senior South Korean official told her that “unless China pushed North Korea to the ‘brink of collapse,’ ” the North would refuse to take meaningful steps to give up its nuclear program.

Mr. Chun, now the South Korean national security adviser, complained to Ambassador Stephens during their lunch that China had little commitment to the multination talks intended to force North Korea to dismantle its nuclear arsenal. The Chinese, he said, had chosen Wu Dawei to represent Beijing at the talks. According to the cable, Mr. Chun called Mr. Wu the country’s “ ‘most incompetent official,’ an arrogant, Marx-spouting former Red Guard who ‘knows nothing about North Korea, nothing about non-proliferation.’ ”

But the cables show that when it comes to the critical issue of succession, even the Chinese know little of the man who would be North Korea’s next ruler: Kim Jong-un.
...
Cont'd

Nickdfresh
11-30-2010, 11:03 AM
'Too much of a playboy'
As recently as February 2009, the American Consulate in Shanghai — a significant collection point for intelligence about North Korea — sent cables reporting that the Chinese who knew North Korea best disbelieved the rumors that Kim Jong-un was being groomed to run the country. Several Chinese scholars with good contacts in the North said they thought it was likely that “a group of high-level military officials” would take over, and that “at least for the moment none of KJI’s three sons is likely to be tapped to succeed him.” The oldest son was dismissed as “too much of a playboy,” the middle son as “more interested in video games” than governing. Kim Jong-un, they said, was too young and inexperienced.

But within months, a senior Chinese diplomat, Wu Jianghao, was telling his American counterparts that Kim Jong-il was using nuclear tests and missile launching as part of an effort to put his third son in place to succeed him, despite his youth.

“Wu opined that the rapid pace of provocative actions in North Korea was due to Kim Jong-il’s declining health and might be part of a gambit under which Kim Jong-il would escalate tensions with the United States so that his successor, presumably Kim Jong-un, could then step in and ease those tensions,” the embassy reported back to Washington in June 2009.

But carrying out plans for an easy ascension may be more difficult than expected, some are quoted as saying. In February of this year the American Consulate in Shenyang reported rumors that Kim Jong-un “had a hand” in the decision to revalue the North’s currency, which wiped out the scarce savings of most North Koreans and created such an outcry that one official was executed for his role in the sudden financial shift. The cables also describe secondhand reports of palace intrigue in the North, with other members of the Kim family preparing to serve as regents to Kim Jong-un — or to unseat him after Kim Jong-il’s death.

Andrew W. Lehren contributed reporting from New York.

This article, " Leaked Cables Depict a World Guessing About North Korea," first appeared in the New York Times.

Copyright © 2010 The New York Times (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40422090/ns/us_news-security#)

Iron Yeoman
11-30-2010, 12:36 PM
So basically, no-one actually knows anything concrete...wonderful.

tankgeezer
11-30-2010, 01:58 PM
Was that Andy Rooney? :)
It was Dana Carvey, but I can see Rooney's influence if not his eyebrows... The Grumpy old man character was popular as he placed the newer generations complaining nature in its place, and with hilarity. But, you be the judge...

Iron Yeoman
12-01-2010, 08:42 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11887236

Latest from the BBC.

Iron Yeoman
12-09-2010, 03:39 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11955625

Latest updates from the BBC.

The Fiendish Red Baron
12-09-2010, 06:29 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11876831

Rising Sun*
12-09-2010, 06:52 AM
The other view http://www.mstrum.com/onmywaytokorea/2009/07/13/north-korean-propaganda-series-anti-usa-1/

The links at the end of the linked page and on following pages, and on the right of the pages, are also worth exploring.

Iron Yeoman
12-16-2010, 01:03 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/15/north-korea-preparing-nuclear-test

Some part of me wishes they get it over and done with and have their little war, instead of all this pr**k teasing. The other part of me is jolly thankful that nothing has happened.